1 00:00:00,299 --> 00:00:05,789 Adam curry, John C. Dvorak is episode 737. I'm John C. Dvorak 2 00:00:05,789 --> 00:00:08,789 and northern Silicon Valley while Adam is lost in the woods, 3 00:00:09,029 --> 00:00:14,819 this is no agenda. Hi there. I'm John C. Dvorak in northern 4 00:00:14,819 --> 00:00:17,789 Silicon Valley. And I'm going it alone today, because I've done a 5 00:00:17,789 --> 00:00:20,969 couple of interviews we're going to use on the show. This is a 6 00:00:20,969 --> 00:00:25,469 filler show. Let's be honest about it. Adam is on vacation, 7 00:00:25,469 --> 00:00:28,199 he's taking a break, and I'll blame him. And I'm kind of 8 00:00:28,199 --> 00:00:31,019 taking a break too. This is pre recorded. But it's something we 9 00:00:31,019 --> 00:00:33,929 like to do to make sure that people get some good content 10 00:00:33,929 --> 00:00:36,119 anytime that we're doing something other than the show. 11 00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:38,189 And we will be doing the show again on Thursday. So we want to 12 00:00:38,189 --> 00:00:41,819 remind everybody to definitely go to divert.org/na because we 13 00:00:41,819 --> 00:00:44,999 do need your support even for the shows. I've got two 14 00:00:44,999 --> 00:00:48,809 interviews lined up for you one with John Sculley, the CEO of 15 00:00:48,839 --> 00:00:51,449 Apple, who actually reveals quite a bit in this interview, I 16 00:00:51,449 --> 00:00:54,359 think anyone who's into the computer scene at all will get a 17 00:00:54,449 --> 00:00:57,959 lot of good information from it. That's followed by Bob Heil, the 18 00:00:57,959 --> 00:01:00,629 guy who does the microphones that most podcasters use. 19 00:01:00,869 --> 00:01:04,979 Fascinating guy, great interview, he just has a lot of 20 00:01:04,979 --> 00:01:07,529 stuff to tell us. That's very interesting. So let's start 21 00:01:07,529 --> 00:01:10,709 right off with John Scott. And by the way, before we do that, I 22 00:01:10,709 --> 00:01:15,509 want to apologize John Sculley is using a Macintosh computer 23 00:01:15,509 --> 00:01:18,779 microphone, so he has an echoey sound, and I want to apologize 24 00:01:18,779 --> 00:01:21,689 in advance for that. So let's begin right now with John 25 00:01:21,689 --> 00:01:26,039 Sculley. I'm here with John Sculley. John. Hi, Hi, John, how 26 00:01:26,039 --> 00:01:29,489 are you? Pretty good. Now you have a new book out that has to 27 00:01:29,489 --> 00:01:34,469 do with, I think becoming a entrepreneur, or what's the I 28 00:01:34,469 --> 00:01:37,079 haven't read the book, but I bet it sounds interesting. It's 29 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:38,669 called moonshot. 30 00:01:38,790 --> 00:01:41,610 It's called moonshot. And as you know, John moonshot as a 31 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:44,670 metaphor that's been around for a long time in Silicon Valley. 32 00:01:44,670 --> 00:01:48,570 It says that, when something happens that's so significant 33 00:01:48,570 --> 00:01:51,390 that the world is different after it happens than it was 34 00:01:51,390 --> 00:01:55,170 before. It's called a moonshot picking up the metaphor of when 35 00:01:55,170 --> 00:01:58,200 President Kennedy back in 1961 said we're gonna put a man on 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,840 the moon and return him safely within a decade. And they did. 37 00:02:00,870 --> 00:02:03,690 Yes. And usually the people who are involved in moonshots are 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,970 walk away as billionaires rather quickly. 39 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,450 Yeah, well, this is not. I'm not the man who created this 40 00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:14,820 moonshot, right. And the moonshot, this time is not one 41 00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:18,870 product. But it's really a several different technologies, 42 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:23,910 cloud, mobility, data analytics, and coming soon Internet of 43 00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:27,840 Things, which are growing at an exponential rate, as you know, 44 00:02:27,990 --> 00:02:31,470 and it's the derivative effect that I'm focused on, which is 45 00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:36,300 the market effect, that the market power is shifting from 46 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:41,460 the large incumbent companies, to customers and customers are 47 00:02:41,490 --> 00:02:43,440 more and more in control, because they're paying more 48 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,880 attention to the opinions and the recommendations of other 49 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,330 customers than they are to the messages of the incumbent 50 00:02:51,330 --> 00:02:56,280 companies. And you can see that today with so many ways in which 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,910 things can go viral, that when customers have something really 52 00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:03,990 good to say about a product or service, it gets out to many 53 00:03:03,990 --> 00:03:07,620 other people very, very quickly. And that's really a game changer 54 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:11,760 because the technologies are rapidly commoditizing. And the 55 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,380 differentiation becomes how do you find better products and 56 00:03:16,380 --> 00:03:20,760 services that have extraordinary customer experience, hopefully 57 00:03:20,790 --> 00:03:26,610 disruptive delivery costs, and can make customers happy enough 58 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,970 that other customers want to tell about it. And you can grow 59 00:03:29,970 --> 00:03:32,730 new businesses? And there are a lot of examples out there right 60 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:33,060 now, 61 00:03:33,150 --> 00:03:35,250 how is this different from word of mouth? 62 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:39,990 It's word about it back in my era, in Silicon Valley, it was 63 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:44,250 called word of mouth when the apple 1984 commercial came out. 64 00:03:44,970 --> 00:03:49,830 There was no commercial Internet in those days. And it was all 65 00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:52,230 word of mouth that people said, gee, if you see that commercial, 66 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:54,960 and they pass it on and on, and we didn't even have cell phones, 67 00:03:54,990 --> 00:03:58,770 you recall in those days. And so word of mouth today is 68 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,600 technology enabled with all kinds of chat and photos and 69 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,600 videos and other ways that people communicate. 70 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:10,710 Has anybody actually studied this? Because it seems to me as 71 00:04:10,710 --> 00:04:14,790 a skeptic, that word of mouth actually goes, I think you could 72 00:04:14,790 --> 00:04:18,480 probably try and trace it to the 1800s or even further back. 73 00:04:19,050 --> 00:04:22,350 Well, you may be right, and I'm a big believer in word of mouth, 74 00:04:22,650 --> 00:04:27,930 if you can do things with it without having to use technology 75 00:04:27,930 --> 00:04:30,630 and it just happens with people talking to people. I think 76 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:32,970 that's great. I think what's happening though, I think we're 77 00:04:32,970 --> 00:04:35,700 getting more transparency. People have better information, 78 00:04:35,700 --> 00:04:39,300 more information. They know more about products and prices and 79 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,890 and being able to compare products and services than they 80 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:47,460 ever could before. All of that is helping to shift the power to 81 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:52,980 the customer. Having more say in how products become successful, 82 00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:56,610 it really changes the ground rules for marketing. Because you 83 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:59,250 know, big marketing spend isn't enough if you don't have a great 84 00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:00,810 product and service Is that people want? 85 00:05:01,110 --> 00:05:03,540 Well, that's always the case, though. That's that's pre 86 00:05:03,540 --> 00:05:06,390 internet. I mean, if you don't have a good product, no matter 87 00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:09,090 what you do, you're not going to sell many, much of it. Yeah, 88 00:05:09,090 --> 00:05:09,840 well, Human Nature 89 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:12,600 doesn't change as quickly as technologies do. And so you're 90 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,820 absolutely right that these things have been around a long 91 00:05:14,820 --> 00:05:18,060 time. It's just that they've been amplified. As technology 92 00:05:18,270 --> 00:05:21,540 makes things more accessible to more people more often, 93 00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:24,030 we'll some some of the stuff. I've been watching this, of 94 00:05:24,030 --> 00:05:27,990 course, and some of the things I've noticed is that of late, 95 00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:31,740 the other phenomenon you're describing, are obfuscated 96 00:05:31,740 --> 00:05:37,830 somewhat by the gaming of the system by Google's analytic 97 00:05:37,890 --> 00:05:40,950 their analysis of websites. And when you for example, if you try 98 00:05:40,950 --> 00:05:43,440 still use this as my main example, if I'm looking for the 99 00:05:43,470 --> 00:05:47,970 best weed whacker in the world, I cannot find it online. I can 100 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:52,260 and then my Twitter followers, and I have 100,000. I use them 101 00:05:52,260 --> 00:05:54,780 as crowdsourcing, which is a new phenomenon where you can 102 00:05:54,780 --> 00:05:58,440 actually go to a large audience at anytime of the day or night 103 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,740 and ask something and you get answers back. I can't get a 104 00:06:01,740 --> 00:06:04,530 definitive answer for the best weed whacker, I can't get a 105 00:06:04,530 --> 00:06:07,800 definitive answer for the best weed whacker using any any 106 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,000 search engine. I get nothing but sites that are exploitative the 107 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,200 ad sites where they sometimes do fake reviews, and they get high 108 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,420 rankings and then they show the weed whacker they're actually 109 00:06:18,420 --> 00:06:24,780 selling coincidentally. And I'm not as much all in on on much of 110 00:06:24,780 --> 00:06:29,160 this sort of thinking because I see too many products that are 111 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,490 not getting the word of mouth. And they're and but all the 112 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:34,800 opportunities are out there that Facebook is out there that 113 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,260 Twitter's out there, all the systems are out there for 114 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:41,280 somebody to to make hay. And I'm seeing still seeing a lot of 115 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:45,750 stuff that doesn't catch on what can be done if you have a 116 00:06:45,750 --> 00:06:48,600 product, and let's make the assumption, this is a good 117 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,580 product, not a crappy product and nobody wants. What happens 118 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:54,840 if it fails? Well, if 119 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:57,720 it's a good product, and people are saying bad things about it, 120 00:06:57,750 --> 00:07:02,130 maybe it's not as good as you thought it was. So I think that, 121 00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:06,450 for instance, if you go to Trustpilot, they will put the 122 00:07:06,630 --> 00:07:10,890 ratings of products and services out there. And they'll put the 123 00:07:10,890 --> 00:07:14,730 bad ones there with the good ones. Many companies, when 124 00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:18,300 they're trying to promote their own product and service course 125 00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:22,620 only put up the nice things that people say. And I think that 126 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:27,450 eventually people see through that and realize that they're 127 00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:31,950 only getting one side of a story. The reality is that what 128 00:07:31,950 --> 00:07:35,100 you're saying is certainly true for some things, but it's not 129 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:39,180 true. But for all things because we're seeing companies. Let's 130 00:07:39,180 --> 00:07:42,570 take Uber, for example, which everyone would agree with is a 131 00:07:42,570 --> 00:07:46,200 pretty successful company, that they aren't a technology 132 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,130 company. They are an infrastructure company, that's 133 00:07:50,130 --> 00:07:53,760 figured out a better way to deliver a service that people 134 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,670 find really useful. For instance, in San Francisco, I 135 00:07:56,670 --> 00:08:01,110 believe that the taxi industry was about $140 million a year. 136 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:08,310 Prior to Google, prior to Uber coming out and post Uber, the 137 00:08:08,580 --> 00:08:11,700 taxi industry is still about $140 million a year. So it 138 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:15,360 didn't change much. On the other hand, Uber has about a 400 139 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,260 million plus revenue per year for its service in San 140 00:08:19,260 --> 00:08:24,420 Francisco. So somebody thought it was worth using the service. 141 00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:27,570 And it expanded the market because as you know, when it's a 142 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:30,270 rainy day, and you're trying to get a taxi, and you're a lot of 143 00:08:30,270 --> 00:08:33,690 people in town in San Francisco, it's not an easy thing to do. So 144 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,040 I think that the technologies are not what people are buying, 145 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,960 they're not buying the technologies, they're buying 146 00:08:40,710 --> 00:08:45,120 better services as they hear about them. And often it's word 147 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,210 of mouth, someone says, gee, did you try this new service called 148 00:08:48,210 --> 00:08:52,740 lift? Or do you try this new service called Airbnb? Or you 149 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:55,470 can try TaskRabbit or whatever these new services happened to 150 00:08:55,470 --> 00:09:00,450 be so worried about is still a big way in which customers get 151 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:03,150 better information. But sometimes that word of mouth is 152 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:06,120 using technology to telecommunications. 153 00:09:06,659 --> 00:09:10,049 You know, it's funny, you mentioned the Uber numbers and, 154 00:09:10,739 --> 00:09:14,309 and that it hasn't really hurt to taxi business, even though 155 00:09:14,399 --> 00:09:17,549 it's perceived, perceived that it did and the taxi people of 156 00:09:17,549 --> 00:09:20,429 course, are moaning because they figure that that money should be 157 00:09:20,429 --> 00:09:20,969 theirs. 158 00:09:21,389 --> 00:09:26,339 Yeah. Maybe they offered a better service. I mean, I live 159 00:09:26,339 --> 00:09:30,119 in the East Coast when I'm in New York, and trying to get a 160 00:09:30,119 --> 00:09:32,429 taxi when they have a shift change, and particularly when 161 00:09:32,429 --> 00:09:35,759 it's raining, and it's just horrible out and you want to get 162 00:09:35,759 --> 00:09:40,589 a taxi. It's impossible. And so Uber is a godsend in that 163 00:09:40,620 --> 00:09:43,320 particular situation. And of course it will legislate against 164 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,360 a young well, because 165 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,740 we live in a democracy that is largely structured around 166 00:09:49,740 --> 00:09:51,450 special interests and always has been, 167 00:09:52,139 --> 00:09:55,469 right. Yeah, actually, I don't have high hopes for long term 168 00:09:55,499 --> 00:09:58,019 Uber because there's they're I know they're gonna just screw 169 00:09:58,019 --> 00:09:58,949 with them forever. 170 00:09:59,309 --> 00:10:03,269 Yeah, Well, as you can see, it's not just in the US it's, you 171 00:10:03,269 --> 00:10:06,029 know, country after country is coming after them and banning 172 00:10:06,029 --> 00:10:10,019 them for, you know, various reasons. Nobody likes them 173 00:10:10,019 --> 00:10:12,839 because they think they're taking away an industry that 174 00:10:12,839 --> 00:10:15,779 already exists. But San Francisco is an interesting 175 00:10:15,779 --> 00:10:18,989 insight, the fact that the taxi industry didn't go away, it 176 00:10:18,989 --> 00:10:22,319 actually expanded, which he points out to me that people 177 00:10:22,319 --> 00:10:26,489 were pretty fed up with the service attacks his offer, and 178 00:10:26,489 --> 00:10:31,409 there wasn't any alternative. So there was still plenty of demand 179 00:10:31,409 --> 00:10:34,289 out there, there just wasn't enough supply. And over helpful 180 00:10:34,289 --> 00:10:35,489 that supply sorted left. 181 00:10:36,570 --> 00:10:40,770 Yeah, you know, I felt this was the same scenario not to go off 182 00:10:40,770 --> 00:10:43,950 the track too far. But when Napster came out, I've always 183 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:48,540 harp on this with the industry. When Napster appeared, and it 184 00:10:48,540 --> 00:10:54,300 was a free it was a sharing system. The the year, the last 185 00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:59,070 year of Napster was the highest sales of CDs in the history of 186 00:10:59,130 --> 00:11:04,650 the music industry. In fact, of CDs, sales began to increase 187 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,550 once Napster arrived. And the logic of this for me was that 188 00:11:08,550 --> 00:11:11,220 people discovered new new music because you would go on to 189 00:11:11,220 --> 00:11:14,160 Napster and you'd get a song that you liked, and you wanted a 190 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,290 copy of it, and you'd find somebody's library of what they 191 00:11:19,290 --> 00:11:21,330 had. And you've noticed that they had a lot of stuff that you 192 00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:26,550 liked. And then as you went down the library you saw stuff you 193 00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:29,700 never heard of, but the guy seemed to have the same taste as 194 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:31,890 you. So you try it out, you say, Wow, this band is terrific, I'll 195 00:11:31,890 --> 00:11:35,340 go buy their CD. And a lot of people did that. And of course, 196 00:11:35,340 --> 00:11:37,620 the industry didn't see it that way. They just saw it as out and 197 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:41,880 out theft, and trade come before a fall, they decided that was 198 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:50,160 more important to have this ownership taken to an extreme 199 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:51,480 and they hurt themselves. 200 00:11:52,110 --> 00:11:57,150 Yeah, that's a wonderful story. And you know, that you just gave 201 00:11:57,420 --> 00:12:00,330 a perfect example of customers paying attention to other 202 00:12:00,330 --> 00:12:03,390 customers. Because you look around, you see what other 203 00:12:03,390 --> 00:12:06,330 people are doing and say, Gee, that's pretty interesting. And 204 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,230 that's a perfect example of customers, assuming a bigger 205 00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:12,120 role in how decisions are made. 206 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,950 Now, if you were to coach and entrepreneur with some new 207 00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:20,700 ideas, and you've seen a lot of them come and go over the years, 208 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:23,940 and I want to talk a little bit about that about your, I think 209 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,980 overlooked running of Apple for a decade and increasing its 210 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:35,400 sales tenfold, which people seem to always be befuddled by what 211 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,920 is the one thing that an entrepreneur does? And you've 212 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,470 seen them do over and over again, that they shouldn't do it 213 00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:48,240 all? Is there anything that comes to mind? Well, 214 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,640 you can to be an entrepreneur, you need to be an optimist, and 215 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,610 you need to believe in something, and you hopefully 216 00:12:56,610 --> 00:13:02,070 become passionate enough about it, that you will do whatever it 217 00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:05,910 takes to try to make it successful. Unfortunately, that 218 00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:09,360 can also make you blind sighted to the fact that there may be 219 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,120 obstacles in your way and may not be quite as good in the eyes 220 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,080 of the customer as it is in your eyes. And we often become a 221 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,680 victim of our own success, you get a little bit of success, and 222 00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:23,400 it goes to your head. If you take it to a bigger scale, John, 223 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:31,440 you and I both remember, in the 1990s, when Intel and Microsoft 224 00:13:31,470 --> 00:13:36,720 dominated the technology world, as the Internet became 225 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,470 commercial with a worldwide web and client server became more 226 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:44,520 and more important. And the interesting thing is that was 227 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,480 only a decade later, and both Intel and Microsoft, Miss 228 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,060 mobile, and you say well, how could these really smart people 229 00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:53,910 because they are smart people? How could they miss something 230 00:13:54,210 --> 00:13:58,290 that was so obvious, you know, after it happened. And so we we 231 00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:01,770 discovered that when you're in the entrepreneurial world, the 232 00:14:01,770 --> 00:14:03,480 only reason for an entrepreneurial company to 233 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,980 exist, is because it can take risks and do things that other 234 00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:11,160 big companies, you know, may not be able to move as quickly with. 235 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,170 And the big companies may be terrific at scaling. But they 236 00:14:16,170 --> 00:14:19,500 aren't particularly terrific at being able to pivot when an 237 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,500 industry goes through a fundamental change. And so I 238 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:26,730 think for entrepreneurs, you've got to be constantly scanning 239 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:29,760 the landscape landscape. I remember, one of the great 240 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,330 lessons I learned from working with Steve Jobs was what Steve 241 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:37,380 used to call zooming. And he said, you know, let's zoom out 242 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:40,980 and kind of look at, you know, things beyond our own industry, 243 00:14:41,190 --> 00:14:44,280 and then try to connect the dots and of course, the example when 244 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,520 I was working with him was you know, He zoomed out and 245 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,030 connected the dots between beautiful calligraphy that he 246 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,710 had been exposed to at Reed College and the incredible 247 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,840 engineering workstations using graphics interface that Xerox 248 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,360 PARC was working on at that time. And of course, he 249 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,940 understood personal computers. But he did introduce the apple 250 00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:10,110 two. And so he said she imagine if you could connect the dots 251 00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:13,230 and take things that are in entirely different domains, it 252 00:15:13,230 --> 00:15:16,350 may not be obvious to other people, why those dots should be 253 00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:20,700 connected. And in his case, he wanted to build a product that 254 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:24,450 would say, computers aren't just for business and technical 255 00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:28,260 people, engineers, scientists, computers are for non technical 256 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:31,980 people to do creative things. And why not enable people to be 257 00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:34,860 able to publish and make the machines affordable, and make 258 00:15:34,860 --> 00:15:38,010 them easy to use? And so he went off in an entirely different 259 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:41,520 tack and where other people were working at the time? Well, 260 00:15:41,550 --> 00:15:44,280 that's what entrepreneurs have to do. They have to see things 261 00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:48,540 in different ways and connect the dots. Steve's brilliance was 262 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:50,700 he knew how to simplify, you know, once he connected the 263 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,540 dots, many entrepreneurs don't know how to simplify, you know, 264 00:15:54,570 --> 00:15:57,750 they connect the dots, but they forget that you've got to make 265 00:15:57,750 --> 00:16:01,050 it a great experience for the customer, or the customer 266 00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:03,690 probably is not going to fall in love with it as much as you do. 267 00:16:05,129 --> 00:16:08,009 Well, that brings me to an interesting question. And 268 00:16:08,009 --> 00:16:10,319 something I think I've thought about I talk about buy your 269 00:16:10,319 --> 00:16:14,999 ticket ever asked you or anybody about the thinking that happened 270 00:16:14,999 --> 00:16:18,359 during the era there earlier in 1990? You were at Dell, what 271 00:16:18,359 --> 00:16:20,729 were your red apples? From what years? 272 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,470 I joined the beginning of 1983 and left in the beginning of 273 00:16:25,470 --> 00:16:30,450 1993 93. You quit? I did. I didn't quit actually I was 274 00:16:30,450 --> 00:16:31,380 pushed out right, you 275 00:16:31,379 --> 00:16:34,949 were you were pushed off because of some strategy, I guess 276 00:16:34,949 --> 00:16:38,879 strategy issues with the board. There was an I don't know if 277 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:42,509 this is on your watch or not. But there was a moment in time 278 00:16:42,509 --> 00:16:47,729 where the Mosaic browser came out. And it was it was native to 279 00:16:47,789 --> 00:16:53,699 the Macintosh. It was not available on anything else. And 280 00:16:54,809 --> 00:16:58,769 during the same period where this browser first appeared on a 281 00:16:58,769 --> 00:17:03,989 Macintosh, and nothing else at Apple could have possibly 282 00:17:03,989 --> 00:17:08,189 cornered the market on the internet. But instead, the 283 00:17:08,189 --> 00:17:12,569 company fell prey to the there's a kind of a strange thinking 284 00:17:12,569 --> 00:17:16,799 going on during this this early era of the browser based 285 00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:23,039 internet which introduced the mouse to to the interface of the 286 00:17:23,069 --> 00:17:25,589 of the of the internet before that everything was grabbing a 287 00:17:25,589 --> 00:17:28,439 good go to use go free everything was was command line 288 00:17:29,159 --> 00:17:32,939 during this transitional period where Apple could have taken 289 00:17:32,939 --> 00:17:36,479 over the place. Apple came out with something called I think it 290 00:17:36,479 --> 00:17:41,579 was EA world or was it was a clone of AOL and Microsoft was 291 00:17:41,579 --> 00:17:47,039 coming out with MSN as a Information Service not like it 292 00:17:47,069 --> 00:17:51,209 devolved into. So you and everybody, not everybody. I 293 00:17:51,209 --> 00:17:54,689 definitely was not saying this. But I have documentation of 294 00:17:54,719 --> 00:17:58,229 plenty of pundits saying, Oh, well, the internet is great. But 295 00:17:58,259 --> 00:18:02,219 AOL is really great. And that's where everything's gonna go. 296 00:18:02,219 --> 00:18:05,909 Because it's Which to me, by the way, the way I see things AOL 297 00:18:05,909 --> 00:18:11,309 became Facebook, in terms of its community orientation, anyway, 298 00:18:11,309 --> 00:18:14,639 that everyone was pushing this and everybody seemed to got 299 00:18:14,909 --> 00:18:17,759 gotten suckered into believing that these information 300 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:21,389 utilities, you know, beginning with CompuServe, the source eo 301 00:18:21,389 --> 00:18:28,649 is B kit with AOL was the heavy hitter at the time of 9293. And 302 00:18:28,859 --> 00:18:32,069 then MSN came along and then this I think it was E again, II 303 00:18:32,069 --> 00:18:34,679 World or some something that Apple had, which was actually 304 00:18:34,679 --> 00:18:39,299 kind of nice. What was the it was interesting to me that 305 00:18:39,299 --> 00:18:43,709 everybody got suckered into going into this, the old 306 00:18:43,709 --> 00:18:48,659 fashioned model sticking with the AOL style of online 307 00:18:48,659 --> 00:18:52,769 communication, as opposed to the net, which came out in mosaic 308 00:18:52,769 --> 00:18:57,149 then became evolved into Netscape which went on the PC. 309 00:18:57,149 --> 00:18:59,429 And the next thing, you know, the whole world has changed. 310 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:01,979 What was going on during that era? 311 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,020 Well, I can fill in some of the gaps. First of all, mosaic 312 00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:09,780 happened after I left while I was there, okay, well, 313 00:19:09,780 --> 00:19:13,680 then you're that gives a plus for you. Okay, but let me 314 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:18,990 fill in some interesting little details of what you said. First 315 00:19:18,990 --> 00:19:23,220 of all, many people don't realize that AOL almost went 316 00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:29,880 bankrupt. Steve Case came to me in about 1987 or eight, I don't 317 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,850 remember the exact year and he couldn't make a payroll. So we 318 00:19:32,850 --> 00:19:37,620 agreed to make a payroll in return for him licensing Apple, 319 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:43,560 some of his technology that was used to create the world. So 320 00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:49,350 that was one data point. And so we actually owned, I think about 321 00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:54,480 5% of AOL as part of that deal. The second thing that happened 322 00:19:54,510 --> 00:20:01,260 was that we were working with Cray computer and the University 323 00:20:01,260 --> 00:20:05,970 of Illinois in Urbana. And we had come up with a product that 324 00:20:05,970 --> 00:20:09,390 Bill Atkinson, the first software engineer at Apple that 325 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,410 whoever worked at Apple Bill had created something called 326 00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:18,180 HyperCard. And HyperCard was a prototyping tool, if you recall, 327 00:20:18,420 --> 00:20:24,090 and it was used as a prototyping tool on the Mac, to connect max 328 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:30,000 over the internet, to the Cray X MP 48 supercomputers at the 329 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:36,060 University of Illinois, Urbana, on campus, and at that campus, I 330 00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:40,980 believe that Marc Andreessen was an engineering student. Yes. 331 00:20:41,790 --> 00:20:46,650 There Yes, true. So he was, you know, involved with, I think 332 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:52,020 some of that prototyping of HyperCard on the Mac connected 333 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:58,470 to the Cray x and p 48. Then, years later, we were actually 334 00:20:58,470 --> 00:21:02,700 working out years later, but in 1987, we were working on 335 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:07,020 something called the knowledge navigator, which was never a 336 00:21:07,050 --> 00:21:11,760 real product. It was a vision of where what computers might look 337 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,570 like 20 odd years into the future. That was a project I was 338 00:21:15,570 --> 00:21:20,880 working on with Alan Kay. And George Lucas had given me some 339 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,910 insight that we could simulate what this would look like, even 340 00:21:23,910 --> 00:21:27,000 though we couldn't make it from a technology standpoint. So we 341 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,240 made a simulated video of it, which was called the knowledge 342 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,230 navigator video. And I used to take it around the world to kind 343 00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:37,920 of give people some inspiration that Apple really did have a 344 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,890 future beyond what it was doing in those days. So out of that 345 00:21:45,150 --> 00:21:50,130 came, the team that worked on that huge doubly, and Doris 346 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:53,940 match, went on to a new company that was formed after I left 347 00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:58,050 Apple that was called Netscape. And you remember Marc Andreessen 348 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,870 came to Netscape created the Netscape browser, and it was 349 00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:07,860 called the Navigator. And he definitely had the same designer 350 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:10,170 who worked on the knowledge and aggregator was the one who 351 00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:14,760 worked on that at Netscape. So what you find in Silicon Valley, 352 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,250 this is very typical Silicon Valley. And you know, you know, 353 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,680 things move around one thing pollinates another thing 354 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,920 pollinates. Another thing. And that's what makes Silicon Valley 355 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,860 so unique is that, you know, people move around, their ideas 356 00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:30,090 move around, and you get the benefit of people being able to 357 00:22:30,090 --> 00:22:35,280 take advantage of little bits of innovation that happen in many 358 00:22:35,490 --> 00:22:39,840 different places. Now, MSN actually came way after I had 359 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,800 left, because until Tim Berners, Lee had created the World Wide 360 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:49,890 Web with HTML HTTP, there wasn't any way to build a browser on 361 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:53,340 top of the world wide web. And it wasn't until the browser had 362 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:57,810 been built and go gay saw that all of a sudden, Netscape came 363 00:22:57,810 --> 00:23:01,290 out of nowhere with a browser running on the World Wide Web. 364 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,760 And it was sometime after that not too long after that, that he 365 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,300 started MSN, the thing that's amazing to me about MSN, I 366 00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:14,280 believe, to this day that MSN still loses money, which seems 367 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:18,330 really quite amazing considering that it's been around so long, 368 00:23:18,330 --> 00:23:23,190 and I guess it still has a fairly high user base to it. But 369 00:23:23,850 --> 00:23:27,510 those things didn't all happen at the same time, at least in my 370 00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:35,130 era. We didn't have any obvious way to go and build things on a 371 00:23:35,130 --> 00:23:39,510 communications network, because we weren't maybe smart enough to 372 00:23:39,540 --> 00:23:42,750 do what Tim Berners Lee did, which was to create the world 373 00:23:42,750 --> 00:23:46,440 wide web. You may remember back in those days, John, when Apple 374 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,700 was working on General Magic, and another company called 375 00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:55,890 Newton. And we were in those days, expecting we wouldn't have 376 00:23:55,890 --> 00:23:58,530 to build our own telecommunication system, you 377 00:23:58,530 --> 00:24:03,690 know, because there wasn't any way to deliver data over circuit 378 00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:08,070 switch lines at that point in time. So General Magic was a 379 00:24:08,850 --> 00:24:12,780 venture that we funded at Apple, and then we brought in 18 T, 380 00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:14,400 because we needed telecommunications, and we 381 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,850 brought into Sony, as a partner as well, because we needed the 382 00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:22,230 consumer electronics health, Newton was all about 383 00:24:22,350 --> 00:24:26,970 communications as well. But in those days, all we had was the 384 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:30,660 ability to communicate, you know, maybe four or five feet 385 00:24:30,660 --> 00:24:34,290 from from one newton to another. And of course, it got slammed 386 00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:38,400 because the handwriting didn't really work. Yeah. But, but the 387 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,720 irony of that, is that we had to work with a man named Herman 388 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,490 Houser, who was the creative creator of the acorn computer in 389 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:52,500 the UK professor at Cambridge University. And he had developed 390 00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,400 a unique processor for the, for the acorn, and we work with him 391 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,570 to modify that work into a process there that was called 392 00:25:00,570 --> 00:25:06,180 Arm advance research machine I think it said four. And we own 393 00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:09,600 43% of of the arm at Apple, because it was completely 394 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,490 designed all the design of it because it was the first object 395 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:21,690 oriented programming language application on a low powered 396 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:25,440 microprocessor. And that was the first low powered microprocessor 397 00:25:25,470 --> 00:25:31,680 that could handle object based calls. And so everything in the 398 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,830 arm was designed around the dude. So Newton was not 399 00:25:34,830 --> 00:25:39,570 successful. But Newton actually made $800 million, because Apple 400 00:25:39,570 --> 00:25:45,750 eventually sold the 43%. They own that our phone for $800 401 00:25:45,750 --> 00:25:49,500 million, which by the way, kept the doors open at Apple, just 402 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,110 before Steve Jobs came back because one of the really 403 00:25:52,110 --> 00:25:55,440 important decisions Gil Amelio made and it gave them the the 404 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,190 cash to to buy next. So it's interesting how you can connect 405 00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:04,800 the dots by lots of things that happen with many people doing a 406 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,280 lot of innovation along the way, things that you don't often find 407 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:09,150 in the history books, 408 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,210 know that that story about the arm is a fascinating one. I do 409 00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:17,100 know it. And it's you wonder if they if they were a little more 410 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:21,000 successful during their Amelio era, which he was tended to be 411 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,170 blamed for. Even though he's, I think it was a National 412 00:26:25,170 --> 00:26:29,400 Semiconductor of Silicon Valley mainstay. He was blamed for 413 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,190 being I think not being Silicon Valley enough, or at least 414 00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:35,730 ambitious enough. But it would be more interesting to me if 415 00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:41,850 they had kept arm to this day, because it's become a very 416 00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:45,900 popular company and Patan very important product. 417 00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:51,030 Well, you know, its market cap today is $26 billion. So 43% of 418 00:26:51,030 --> 00:26:55,920 that would be pretty good. Yeah. The ARM core is in something 419 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,820 like 7 billion mobile devices, so 7 billion mobile devices 420 00:26:59,820 --> 00:27:04,710 around the world. So it went on to become pretty important. And 421 00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:09,630 a lot of the original Newton technology is still found in 422 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,160 many smartphones today. 423 00:27:11,969 --> 00:27:16,229 Now you got involved with smartphones. I mean, very few 424 00:27:16,229 --> 00:27:20,129 people in the United States know about this. But I, since I do a 425 00:27:20,129 --> 00:27:22,589 podcast called The no agenda show, which you should listen to 426 00:27:22,589 --> 00:27:26,189 some time. In fact, if you type no agenda into Google, you'll 427 00:27:26,189 --> 00:27:31,469 see, I think, seven pages beyond whatever. So the I was watching, 428 00:27:31,469 --> 00:27:33,749 I watched foreign news broadcasts, and I was watching 429 00:27:33,749 --> 00:27:38,819 was, I believe was France 24. Van cat. And they did a huge 430 00:27:38,849 --> 00:27:44,759 profile of you on that network. About your phone company, which 431 00:27:44,759 --> 00:27:47,549 you apparently started, I guess, a year or two ago, and it's 432 00:27:47,579 --> 00:27:52,109 already doing quite a quite a decent business. Tell us a 433 00:27:52,109 --> 00:27:52,859 little bit about that. 434 00:27:53,400 --> 00:28:00,990 Sure. Well, I have a number of businesses over in Asia. So I co 435 00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:07,530 founded a firm called inflection point, which we are buying 436 00:28:07,710 --> 00:28:12,120 supply chain companies, everything from IT components to 437 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:16,530 finished it goods all throughout the ASEAN countries, that 438 00:28:16,530 --> 00:28:21,750 Southeast Asia, India and places like that. And we, like many 439 00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:24,990 people observed over there that, wow, smartphones are really 440 00:28:24,990 --> 00:28:27,750 catching on. And that part of the world is just switching from 441 00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:33,090 2g to 3g, that there's literally billions of young people who 442 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,630 want to own their own smartphone, moved from the 443 00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:40,920 feature phones, which now you can buy for less than $20 Over 444 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,890 there. But they wanted to move to smartphones, but they 445 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:48,720 couldn't afford the $600 for an iPhone, or for a high end 446 00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:53,040 Samsung phone. So what we observed was that the cars were 447 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,250 selling to a lot of these contract manufacturers in China. 448 00:28:57,150 --> 00:29:02,610 We said gee, the technology has really commoditized. And we 449 00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:07,560 could actually build a very high quality smartphone without 450 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:12,030 having to invest virtually anything into r&d. And because 451 00:29:12,030 --> 00:29:15,150 we're already in the supply chain business, we don't really 452 00:29:15,150 --> 00:29:20,640 have to invest much into the administration around that 453 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,460 business because we know these markets around around the world 454 00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:28,050 from a distribution standpoint. And so using a frugal expense 455 00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:33,390 model for our overhead leveraging the commoditization 456 00:29:33,420 --> 00:29:38,190 of smartphone technology, we pulled together a really 457 00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:42,690 incredible Silicon Valley design team. And I can't mention all 458 00:29:42,690 --> 00:29:45,090 the names at this point until our products are out on the 459 00:29:45,090 --> 00:29:48,690 market but but they're the people you know, I had worked 460 00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:53,130 with over the years, you would recognize all the names and we 461 00:29:53,130 --> 00:29:57,570 said we will really double down on industrial design and we will 462 00:29:57,570 --> 00:30:01,320 design the best possible system Our phones, we can and will 463 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,840 optimize them around things that are important in places like 464 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,560 Africa where you've got a two hour bus ride to get home. And 465 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,660 when you get home, you have no electricity, and you want to 466 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:12,780 listen to music or watch the cricket scores or football 467 00:30:12,780 --> 00:30:16,470 scores. And so we optimized around giving people extra 468 00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:20,610 battery life and things that were important and we materially 469 00:30:20,850 --> 00:30:25,110 the sound too much is beach tune, tune the sound to hip hop, 470 00:30:25,140 --> 00:30:28,830 we tune the sound and optimize for the types of music in 471 00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:31,500 different parts of the world, things like that. And so we've 472 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:35,940 actually built a looks like pretty successful business, 473 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:42,360 several 100, we'll do, I guess, between three or 400 million in 474 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,620 revenue this year. We're profitable this year. And we're 475 00:30:46,620 --> 00:30:50,400 growing very, very fast. And we are in the emerging markets. Now 476 00:30:50,430 --> 00:30:54,480 we don't sell in Europe or the United States. We're into 477 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,700 Southeast Asia, Bangladesh, Vietnam, is headed off to East 478 00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:04,680 Africa, Tanzania, and Kenya. We're in all the Middle East 479 00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:09,570 countries, both the UAE, the GCC countries, we're moving into 480 00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:13,260 this the CIS countries, which are the former Soviet countries, 481 00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:15,780 we're not going to Russia this time for a bunch of reasons. But 482 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,850 there's a literally hundreds and hundreds of millions of young 483 00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:25,350 people, the number is really over billions of young people 484 00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:31,680 who are in that teenage, early 20s, who aspire to a smartphone, 485 00:31:31,710 --> 00:31:36,540 but have a pretty high taste standard of wanting it to be the 486 00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:40,440 same kind of cultural instrument that shows off and says, Here's 487 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,110 my personality, they just don't want something coming out of a 488 00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:46,590 Chinese factory that looks like a generic phone. So that's the 489 00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:50,940 idea of it. And you know, it's never going to be Jami, you 490 00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:57,060 know, it's not going to be the be a world beater. But it does 491 00:31:57,210 --> 00:32:00,630 create an opportunity for us to Bill what we think can be a 492 00:32:00,630 --> 00:32:01,590 really nice business. 493 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,250 Now this to me, when I first heard this story, what's the 494 00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:07,410 name of the product? By the way, before I ask this question, 495 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:10,320 it's called OB, OB, I, you know, 496 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:18,390 check it out, I'm sure on the web, when it comes to mind is 497 00:32:18,390 --> 00:32:22,950 like this is was something that had to happen eventually, 498 00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:25,050 because you're right, that commoditization, if we're gonna 499 00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:26,880 go by Moore's law, things are gonna get cheaper and cheaper 500 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,310 and cheaper to the point where they're, you know, they're what 501 00:32:29,310 --> 00:32:33,150 is right now, the minimum cost from scratch of the of the bag 502 00:32:33,150 --> 00:32:37,110 of parts, at the best you could absolutely do for a smartphone. 503 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,820 Well, you can actually do them for less than than we do. 504 00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:44,910 Because we're not going for the absolute cheapest out there. And 505 00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:49,620 there are people who are literally standing out in the 506 00:32:50,490 --> 00:32:56,820 malls selling smartphones and feature phones. And they have 507 00:32:56,820 --> 00:32:59,130 them in their pockets. You know, you combine like you can buy 508 00:32:59,130 --> 00:33:05,850 Washington in Tiananmen Square, right? For 2535 $45. That's not 509 00:33:05,850 --> 00:33:10,200 the market, we're going after the price points, we're focused 510 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:16,980 more start around, just under $100. And then we have the 511 00:33:17,010 --> 00:33:20,700 mainstream of our products, it's more like $150. Us. And then we 512 00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:24,960 also sell higher end products, which are, you know, in the high 513 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:31,590 200 270 $280, the bomb, the bill of materials on those products 514 00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:33,720 are usually about half of whatever 515 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,830 you're doing. Okay, so if it's 516 00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:41,580 a product that's selling for $100, you've got maybe $50, of 517 00:33:41,580 --> 00:33:42,750 build material parts. And 518 00:33:44,190 --> 00:33:47,850 I have been the old rule, there used to be a 4x factor, and then 519 00:33:47,850 --> 00:33:51,000 there's been 3x factor. And then I guess what these because of 520 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,050 volume of sales is so high, you don't need to put your multiple, 521 00:33:55,050 --> 00:33:55,650 so high. 522 00:33:56,460 --> 00:33:59,100 Well, the other thing is because we're already in the supply 523 00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:02,790 chain business and distribution business, and we're and we run 524 00:34:02,790 --> 00:34:06,990 our businesses in Asia, we are very comfortable with businesses 525 00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:10,890 that have had margins that US companies just would walk away 526 00:34:10,890 --> 00:34:14,820 from, and then which we can go in with a product that has a 527 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,860 eight, nine 10% gross margin, and can have an operating profit 528 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,770 of one and a half to 2%. And we're thrilled, whereas most 529 00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:27,960 companies would say, Well, why would I want to be in that 530 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,050 business, but remember, we own the business. The second thing 531 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,600 is that we had looked last year at acquiring Blackberry, and 532 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,200 we'd actually lined up the capital to do it. I have a team 533 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,710 up in Toronto as part of our organization. So we have teams 534 00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:47,520 in London, Toronto, Singapore, Delhi, various places around the 535 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:53,490 world. And we saw that when we were doing the due diligence on 536 00:34:53,490 --> 00:34:59,850 BlackBerry, we saw that that they had 7000 people working on 537 00:34:59,850 --> 00:35:03,900 their Our handset business. And we were negotiating if they 538 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:08,280 hadn't pulled the auction, we were hoping to sell it to the 539 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,850 handset business to an elbow. And we would keep the BlackBerry 540 00:35:11,850 --> 00:35:14,010 Enterprise Server business, which is what we really serve as 541 00:35:14,010 --> 00:35:16,470 business, which is what we really wanted. But in the 542 00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:20,250 process of studying that we said, 7000 people, so I asked 543 00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:24,390 our team, CEO, I said, So how many people would you need to 544 00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:27,900 run a handset business like that? He said, Oh, between 50 545 00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:32,250 and 100. And that's when our eyes started to open the window, 546 00:35:32,250 --> 00:35:35,850 why are we trying to buy this company? We have most of the 547 00:35:35,850 --> 00:35:39,840 skills already inside of our businesses. What if we took a 548 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,770 serious look at building our own company from scratch? And that's 549 00:35:43,770 --> 00:35:44,040 what we 550 00:35:44,070 --> 00:35:47,130 will I have to tell you, you're the first first Silicon Valley 551 00:35:47,130 --> 00:35:50,730 guy over the last, I don't know, five or six years that I've ever 552 00:35:50,730 --> 00:35:56,910 heard, take the make side of the make buying decision. It's like 553 00:35:56,940 --> 00:35:59,130 everybody buys nobody makes 554 00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:03,510 no, well, we don't make either remember why nobody's talking 555 00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:08,490 about you, you make you do make. But I'm saying you didn't buy 556 00:36:08,490 --> 00:36:11,070 somebody, you didn't take the easy way out, rather just buy 557 00:36:11,070 --> 00:36:13,260 them and it will run their business maybe do a better job. 558 00:36:14,070 --> 00:36:19,260 Well think of it this way. Remember, I grew up in a 559 00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:22,770 commodity industry called soft drinks, there was very little 560 00:36:22,770 --> 00:36:27,450 difference inside the bottle between a Pepsi and Coke. So I 561 00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:30,570 was pretty comfortable selling a commodity product and building a 562 00:36:30,570 --> 00:36:34,470 distinct personality for. And in the technology world, the way to 563 00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:37,770 build a distinct personality is, you know, it's all in the 564 00:36:37,770 --> 00:36:42,330 design. It's not the marketing. So we watched what yami was 565 00:36:42,330 --> 00:36:45,720 doing with their flash sales in China. And they don't spend any 566 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,000 money in marketing. We watched Google when they started, they 567 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,880 didn't spend any money on marketing. We said if we had a 568 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,700 really, really cool design, we understand distribution 569 00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:57,780 channels. And we understand frugal expense models. And we're 570 00:36:57,810 --> 00:37:02,460 comfortable in a business where we don't have any overhead to 571 00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:06,090 speak of so we can actually make money at price points where the 572 00:37:06,090 --> 00:37:09,090 traditional companies like HTC, and Sony and others are 573 00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:14,310 hemorrhaging losses. Maybe that's forthcoming. And these so 574 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:16,860 far, so good. But you know, that's one of about 15 companies 575 00:37:16,860 --> 00:37:20,460 I've got, but it's one that kind of tells a different story than 576 00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:21,870 what you might hear. Yeah. And 577 00:37:21,870 --> 00:37:25,230 it's also quite interesting, because when I first heard about 578 00:37:25,230 --> 00:37:30,240 OB, and read about the model and what you're up to, I said to 579 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:34,590 myself, why doesn't Nokia do this exact same thing? What is 580 00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:38,130 they they've been in the business, they get the supply 581 00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:40,950 chains locked up, they have all these opportunities, and they 582 00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:44,430 just didn't do anything. I don't know, maybe they just felt the 583 00:37:44,430 --> 00:37:46,920 whole thing was to just sell to Microsoft, once they got there. 584 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,690 The Campbell guys hadn't a chance. 585 00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:53,520 Well, the challenge Microsoft has now that they own Nokia, you 586 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,630 remember, they paid $7.2 billion for it laid off about 30,000 587 00:37:57,630 --> 00:38:00,750 people since they bought it. They're still last I heard 588 00:38:00,750 --> 00:38:02,880 hemorrhaging hundreds of millions of dollars every 589 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,590 quarter. And they just announced that they're going to come out 590 00:38:07,590 --> 00:38:11,070 with a Nokia brand. Remember that changing the rest of the 591 00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:16,020 product line to Lumina. They're going to come out with a Nokia 592 00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:18,630 brand product that they're going to sell on a $70 price point. 593 00:38:18,660 --> 00:38:22,290 Well, I can tell you, with their r&d at Microsoft, and their 594 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,530 overhead at Nokia slash Microsoft, there's no other way 595 00:38:25,530 --> 00:38:29,070 in the world they can make any money. So they may choose to 596 00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:32,130 treat it like MSN and say, well, we can we don't have to make 597 00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:35,250 money here. We'll make money somewhere else. But the reality 598 00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:38,130 is, if you're a new company, we had to say, No, we're not going 599 00:38:38,130 --> 00:38:40,710 to go into this unless we can see how we're going to make 600 00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:43,260 money at it. And we actually will this year will 601 00:38:43,260 --> 00:38:47,220 be profitable. You have no zero plans to ever bring these phones 602 00:38:47,220 --> 00:38:48,330 into the United States. 603 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,670 We're certainly not thinking, here's why I was part of the 604 00:38:55,230 --> 00:38:58,440 founding efforts of a company called Metro PCS. Oh, 605 00:38:58,470 --> 00:39:02,730 yes. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I wasn't the founder. But 606 00:39:02,730 --> 00:39:06,390 I was one. That was an outstanding product. 607 00:39:06,930 --> 00:39:11,010 It was an outstanding product. And Roger Lindquist was the CEO. 608 00:39:11,010 --> 00:39:13,470 He was visionary. He was terrific. And it was just a joy 609 00:39:13,470 --> 00:39:15,960 to work with him. And I was kind of like, like, you know, a 610 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,230 marketing resource board member and an early investor in the 611 00:39:19,230 --> 00:39:22,890 company. But in any event that was built on the same model that 612 00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:26,340 the rest of the world is which is a prepaid model, not a 613 00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:29,490 contract, right. And for us, because we are primarily a 614 00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:34,800 contract model. The cost of the phone is buried into the two 615 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,070 year service contract, and the carriers are really in control 616 00:39:38,070 --> 00:39:42,210 of the sales channels. And so it's really, really hard for 617 00:39:42,210 --> 00:39:44,730 someone to break into this business. And so you see someone 618 00:39:44,730 --> 00:39:48,720 like Motorola now owned by Lenovo, is doing brilliantly in 619 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:51,570 the emerging markets around the world. It's been really 620 00:39:51,570 --> 00:39:57,300 successful for Lenovo, but they don't really try to sell much in 621 00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:01,020 the United States. It's just too hard to crack the distribution 622 00:40:01,020 --> 00:40:05,370 channels and the contract sales model. So there's not any big 623 00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:08,490 logic, why we would come to the US Embassy, we came up with a 624 00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:11,520 radically different strategy, but even Zhao, me, and said, 625 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,400 Don't look for us to come to the US for maybe four or five years. 626 00:40:14,730 --> 00:40:18,720 And of course, they're having amazing success, certainly in 627 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,810 China, but then we'll be in the other markets, but only in the 628 00:40:21,810 --> 00:40:22,680 emerging markets. 629 00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:27,510 What do you think the future for the Apple iPhone is it's become 630 00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:31,710 a cult item. Prestige item is definitely not marketed like 631 00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:36,810 anything else, very wisely gets higher margin because of this 632 00:40:37,980 --> 00:40:42,450 pent up perpetual demand for newer ones that the public has, 633 00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:48,390 or at least the people who are all in on the iPhone. I would 634 00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:54,210 say milieu or what cult maybe. But it's, it's it seems to me, 635 00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:00,990 that is very expensive product that it can't be around forever. 636 00:41:01,980 --> 00:41:05,970 But i By the way, I'm saying this as the guy who said this 637 00:41:05,970 --> 00:41:09,060 will never fly. Even though I never saw the iPhone, I'd made 638 00:41:09,060 --> 00:41:12,540 these predictions because I was goaded into it. I will. I will 639 00:41:12,540 --> 00:41:17,550 say I just but I admire the product. I think it's a great 640 00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:19,860 product. I think it opens the doors to all kinds of cool 641 00:41:19,860 --> 00:41:25,650 stuff. But it seems to be an expensive bottle of wine that is 642 00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:28,230 not that much better than the other cheaper bottle of wine. 643 00:41:29,580 --> 00:41:35,130 Well, when we first looked at getting into the, what I'll call 644 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:39,750 the budget, mobile economy and the emerging markets, I looked 645 00:41:39,750 --> 00:41:44,130 at it as being like, this is a pretty big expanding niche of 646 00:41:44,130 --> 00:41:48,690 the mobile device market. I now realize it isn't a niche, it is 647 00:41:48,690 --> 00:41:52,950 the market. And the and the anomaly is really apple at the 648 00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:56,670 premium end, you know, apples to BMW, sort of the auto industry 649 00:41:56,700 --> 00:42:01,770 analogy. So, what does Apple do? Well, Apple is actually doing 650 00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:04,470 some really smart things. I think, first of all, if you go 651 00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:09,360 back to WWDC, the worldwide developer conference, last June, 652 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:14,160 they announced platforms on platforms, they announced 653 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,700 vertical platforms, they announced healthcare, they're 654 00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:20,970 doing, you know, HomeKit, they're Zoghbi working on a car 655 00:42:20,970 --> 00:42:25,620 kit. So they're going into these verticals and building, not just 656 00:42:25,620 --> 00:42:30,990 the horizontal platform that they have the smartphone wars, 657 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,380 always wars with, with Google, but they're going in and they're 658 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:40,170 building another layer up, which are these vertical platforms. 659 00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:42,900 And they're actually made I do a lot in healthcare. Healthcare is 660 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:47,280 one of my domains, I've got five companies in healthcare, that 661 00:42:47,940 --> 00:42:49,800 they're going into the healthcare industry, and they're 662 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,060 having quite a bit of success, but of the top, like 19 major 663 00:42:54,060 --> 00:42:56,730 hospital systems in the US, they're already in about half of 664 00:42:56,730 --> 00:43:03,810 them. And they are having a huge impact on many doctors who are 665 00:43:03,810 --> 00:43:07,320 notorious about doing anything with tech using technologies, 666 00:43:07,590 --> 00:43:10,260 who actually feel comfortable with them. And as you know, as 667 00:43:10,410 --> 00:43:13,380 as sensors become more prevalent, and built into more 668 00:43:13,380 --> 00:43:15,780 things, and particularly medical devices, and they get better and 669 00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:18,450 better. And data analytics get better and better. I think Apple 670 00:43:18,450 --> 00:43:23,760 is going to find a nice franchise in healthcare. They 671 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,320 are I think, behind the curve versus Google in terms of the 672 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,280 connected home because Google has nest and drop cam and some 673 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,660 other things. But my guess is you'll see Apple take their iOS 674 00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:40,350 technology, what's what's not apparent, I think everybody that 675 00:43:40,350 --> 00:43:44,340 I know, you know, this is that about eight 80% of everything 676 00:43:44,340 --> 00:43:48,900 that Apple sells is based now on iOS, because they are smart that 677 00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:53,820 their iPhone is about 70%. And their iPad is about 10%. So that 678 00:43:53,820 --> 00:43:57,240 gets them to 80%. And there's a lot of speculation that that the 679 00:43:57,270 --> 00:44:02,040 MacOS will eventually move over to the arm, and it will take on 680 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,130 more and more of the characteristics of iOS. So I 681 00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:09,420 think they are going to take iOS across televisions, I think 682 00:44:09,420 --> 00:44:13,290 they'll take iOS, not television sets per se but I mean more see 683 00:44:13,290 --> 00:44:17,610 OTT type services over the top services. And I think that 684 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:23,490 you'll see Apple take that big investment that they have in an 685 00:44:23,490 --> 00:44:29,070 iPhone, which is what the iOS and then the various other 686 00:44:29,070 --> 00:44:32,160 things like iTunes and App Store's on top of it and they're 687 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,530 going to continue to verticalized it would be my 688 00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:39,810 guess, because you just can't keep those high margins and just 689 00:44:39,810 --> 00:44:42,960 be like Google, I mean, look at Samsung, I'm at Samsung is 690 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,580 literally getting killed because they got Xiaomi and Micromax and 691 00:44:47,580 --> 00:44:51,990 some of these regional phones coming up with very very good 692 00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:55,860 products looking more and more like the iPhone at half the 693 00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:59,820 price or less of what the iPhone is selling. And for Samsung has 694 00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:03,180 said in there, with incredible investments in research and 695 00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:06,540 development, huge overhead, huge marketing spend, they spend more 696 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,810 on marketing than Apple does by a lot. Oh, yeah, four or five 697 00:45:09,810 --> 00:45:13,410 times more. And so they they've got a completely broken model. 698 00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:16,770 So if anyone is going to fall first is not Apple, it's going 699 00:45:16,770 --> 00:45:21,240 to be Samsung. And my guess is Samsung's going to retreat back 700 00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:26,010 into making components and moving into, you know, their 701 00:45:26,010 --> 00:45:28,920 other appliances. You know, they sell washing machines, and 702 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,650 refrigerators and stuff like that. So my guess is you'll see 703 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,250 Samsung moving away from this high performance on smartphones. 704 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,100 There was yeah, there's been a lot of discussion about this 705 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:41,340 recently. Samsung has also for some unknown reason developing 706 00:45:41,340 --> 00:45:45,630 its own OS. What is the thinking behind that? Is that when you 707 00:45:45,630 --> 00:45:48,870 use Android as an inexpensive proposition? 708 00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:52,800 Well, they've been working, it's called Tizen. And they've been 709 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,400 working on Tizen, for many years, they just, I think, are 710 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,710 in the process of releasing the Tizen phone, I don't think 711 00:45:58,710 --> 00:46:03,090 anybody wants it. So my, my guess is, it's not going to do 712 00:46:03,090 --> 00:46:06,450 very well. But But Tizen is going to be the operating system 713 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:10,110 that they intend to use for their internet of things, you 714 00:46:10,110 --> 00:46:12,960 know, all of their connected appliances and things of that 715 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,990 sort. And it may make some sense, they're just not, you 716 00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:18,930 know, knowledgeable enough to know the specifics on it. The 717 00:46:18,930 --> 00:46:23,820 other issue thing with what Samsung has done in the galaxy 718 00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:26,880 six, their newest phone, which just comes out at the Mobile 719 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,750 World Congress, they aren't using a Qualcomm Snapdragon 720 00:46:30,750 --> 00:46:34,500 processor. And that's really big news. In other words, they are 721 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,520 retreating back to things they can control with hardware, 722 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,950 because that's what they're experts at, man, as you know, 723 00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:45,840 they started a Silicon Valley campus a few years ago with the 724 00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:50,400 announced purpose of really becoming a major innovative 725 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,160 force in software. But that's yet to happen. 726 00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:56,610 No, to say the least. Or have you heard of any other operating 727 00:46:56,610 --> 00:46:59,580 systems for phones that are floating around? Maybe kind of 728 00:47:00,540 --> 00:47:01,470 under the radar? 729 00:47:04,350 --> 00:47:12,120 There are a few. I'm just trying to what is the one that begins 730 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,980 with you? I can't remember. But But I think it's almost 731 00:47:16,980 --> 00:47:20,160 irrelevant. But why does anybody want another operating system? 732 00:47:20,670 --> 00:47:26,160 When you get Android for free? So my guess is? I'm both Bucha. 733 00:47:26,190 --> 00:47:26,880 I think it's called? 734 00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:30,990 Oh, yeah, I'll just make a comment. That's a Linux 735 00:47:30,990 --> 00:47:34,530 operation, obviously. And that guy made a comment that they're 736 00:47:34,530 --> 00:47:38,760 going to affect this been for over a year or maybe two, that 737 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,690 there have been there's been discussion about an operating 738 00:47:42,690 --> 00:47:45,600 system for phones, that is going to be a Linux product of some 739 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,040 sort, even androids also Linux product. 740 00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:58,110 Yeah. I don't think that's the biggest news around. Sometimes 741 00:47:58,110 --> 00:48:01,170 people invent things that, you know, don't really need to be in 742 00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:06,030 the Linux world, it would be nice if it actually got its act 743 00:48:06,030 --> 00:48:09,990 together. I think the pride have a Linux box, couple of them, and 744 00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:12,570 they they're great. And you get all kinds of free software, and 745 00:48:12,570 --> 00:48:16,320 you can load them up with with make it functional. So it's just 746 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,790 you wouldn't know the difference, really. But there's 747 00:48:17,790 --> 00:48:20,850 still these things missing. And they can't seem to get around 748 00:48:20,850 --> 00:48:25,020 it. Like Adobe, for example, refuses to put any of its 749 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,910 products on Linux, because and this story I'm told is because 750 00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:36,090 Warnock was irked when ghost script was invented, and they 751 00:48:36,090 --> 00:48:39,930 thought it was gonna ruin him. And so he just has a grudge 752 00:48:39,930 --> 00:48:42,210 against the think it's just a corporate thing. Now, 753 00:48:42,990 --> 00:48:46,650 the thing to watch, John is, is, if there's a new operating 754 00:48:46,650 --> 00:48:51,300 system, it probably needs to be for the Internet of Things where 755 00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:55,440 you've got low powered sensors, and power management is a big 756 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,050 deal. And you know, the smartphone operating systems, 757 00:48:58,050 --> 00:49:01,890 you got a lithium ion battery in there, they're pretty big. But 758 00:49:01,890 --> 00:49:04,980 what do you do with the little miniaturized sensors all over 759 00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,730 the place? And I'm a co founder of a company called misfit in 760 00:49:08,730 --> 00:49:15,660 Silicon Valley, and we do sensor based products. But we have six 761 00:49:15,660 --> 00:49:18,510 month Battery Life Summit, one of our major focuses is how do 762 00:49:18,510 --> 00:49:23,970 you how do you extend the length of battery time on these sensor 763 00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:27,870 base based products? It's a very different set of challenges. And 764 00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:28,920 when you're dealing with smartphone, you 765 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,110 have high hopes for the Internet of Things. That's one thing I 766 00:49:31,110 --> 00:49:33,720 wanted to get to last year, which is the Internet of Things 767 00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:38,130 I've been to a couple of kind of showcases of where they're 768 00:49:38,130 --> 00:49:41,910 having Internet of Things items. I'm not immediately a fan of the 769 00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:44,460 idea of Internet of things because this harkens back to me 770 00:49:44,820 --> 00:49:51,720 to the I guess the late 80s When IBM was touting what touting the 771 00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:55,350 idea that the washing machine would call the washer repairman, 772 00:49:55,350 --> 00:49:58,650 and that then your refrigerator would know that you needed milk 773 00:49:58,650 --> 00:50:02,490 and so in order milkweed maybe didn't want milk, but it's going 774 00:50:02,490 --> 00:50:05,760 to do it anyway. And all this kind of bull crap as far as I 775 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,420 could tell. So it began, I think what the personal operating or 776 00:50:09,570 --> 00:50:13,140 personal area operating system where you have, like, just, I 777 00:50:13,140 --> 00:50:15,870 think pre Bluetooth, where you have a little, some sort of a 778 00:50:15,870 --> 00:50:18,810 little network around you that did things or, you know, got you 779 00:50:18,810 --> 00:50:21,780 into the Walmart and put your name up on a board role, that 780 00:50:21,780 --> 00:50:24,900 sort of thing. I always found these to be unnecessary to 781 00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:26,100 anyone's normal life. 782 00:50:26,220 --> 00:50:31,950 Yeah. So here's where I think you have to start. It's not in, 783 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:38,310 in the consumer space. So yes, you know, Tony Fidel did a 784 00:50:38,310 --> 00:50:41,850 beautiful product with Nest and, you know, drop cameras is cool. 785 00:50:41,850 --> 00:50:45,660 And, you know, GoPro will probably add sensor 786 00:50:45,660 --> 00:50:48,210 communications. So So those things are cool, but that, but 787 00:50:48,210 --> 00:50:51,240 that's not, you know, this trillion dollar industry that 788 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,010 IDC talks about the place where it's really going to have an 789 00:50:56,010 --> 00:51:01,350 impact, I believe, starts in manufacturing. And we're already 790 00:51:01,350 --> 00:51:05,160 seeing that manufacturing is returning rapidly to the US, but 791 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,300 it's obviously not what the same jobs. And it's using, you know, 792 00:51:09,330 --> 00:51:13,710 more and more of what McKinsey has labeled the digitization of 793 00:51:13,710 --> 00:51:18,120 work. And so the people who were behind the McKinsey digitization 794 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:25,410 of work effort are GE, Cisco, Intel, maybe IBM, I'm not sure, 795 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,440 but certainly the first three, and they're betting heavily on 796 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,120 it. So if you're GE, and you're making jet aircraft engines, you 797 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,800 put 200 sensors on it, and as it's flying over the Pacific is 798 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,400 reporting back, theoretically unfold, maybe it actually in 799 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,390 real time, and it's looking at the outside air pressure, it's 800 00:51:45,390 --> 00:51:49,230 looking at the internal thermal conditions, it's looking at the 801 00:51:49,950 --> 00:51:54,660 speed of the rotors, it's looking at the use of fuel at 802 00:51:54,660 --> 00:51:57,780 those different speeds and pressures. And it's making real 803 00:51:57,780 --> 00:52:01,590 time adjustments on both safety issues and fuel consumption 804 00:52:01,590 --> 00:52:08,100 issues. So that's a very practical example of Internet of 805 00:52:08,430 --> 00:52:11,310 Things That has nothing to do with hooking up your 806 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,220 refrigerator to automatically put or melt when you when you 807 00:52:14,220 --> 00:52:18,360 run out. I'm a skeptic of that, too. And so I think it's going 808 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,290 to be more industrial, commercial, things that are 809 00:52:22,290 --> 00:52:26,340 going to be less expensive. And I think that the people to watch 810 00:52:26,370 --> 00:52:28,560 are not the people who aren't necessarily particularly 811 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,970 creative. It's the it's the big old, lumbering companies like GE 812 00:52:32,970 --> 00:52:37,800 and Intel, and Cisco and others, who may well be defining it. 813 00:52:37,830 --> 00:52:41,640 Another one is what has been labeled as smart cities. You 814 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,400 know, IBM is working on smart cities, Cisco is working on it. 815 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:51,660 The idea of smart cities is if you could simplify the effort 816 00:52:51,660 --> 00:52:54,060 that people have to find a parking space, you can save 817 00:52:54,060 --> 00:52:57,540 fuel, if you can manage the traffic patterns more 818 00:52:57,540 --> 00:53:01,140 efficiently so that the traffic lights are able to adapt to 819 00:53:01,140 --> 00:53:04,620 whatever the traffic is at a particular time of day, in a 820 00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:09,060 particular location. depending on traffic. You know, you can 821 00:53:09,690 --> 00:53:15,420 save gasoline, you can if you have a very hot day, and you 822 00:53:15,420 --> 00:53:18,360 want to to turn down the number of cycles that the air 823 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,180 conditioning is used in commercial buildings. So it's 824 00:53:21,180 --> 00:53:25,110 imperceptibly smaller than changed and what people can even 825 00:53:25,110 --> 00:53:28,110 recognize, but it saves an incredible amount of fuel. 826 00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:30,900 That's another example. So So these things aren't particularly 827 00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:35,700 sexy, but they're real. And they probably will take. It's not 828 00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:38,760 like introducing the iPhone or Introducing Google, these aren't 829 00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:42,870 moonshots these are things that just kind of work their way into 830 00:53:43,230 --> 00:53:46,770 our society and our economy. But I didn't think ultimately will 831 00:53:46,770 --> 00:53:50,430 be big. Now the estimates are, and it just astounds me the 832 00:53:50,430 --> 00:53:54,690 numbers I hear thrown around 50 billion wireless connected 833 00:53:54,690 --> 00:54:02,010 devices by the early 2020s $17 trillion cumulative industry by 834 00:54:02,010 --> 00:54:06,360 the by 2030. And so these numbers are so large, I can't 835 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,360 even get my head around it. So I think it will happen, but I'm 836 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,440 not sure if it will happen in a way that says dramatic as 837 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,130 introducing, you know, an iPad or an iPhone? Well, you 838 00:54:17,130 --> 00:54:19,500 know, we have a company in Berkeley that's involved in 839 00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:24,600 this. They make sensors that are placed around track traffic 840 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,610 signals at intersections, and they have them all over the 841 00:54:26,610 --> 00:54:29,310 place. And I think they've got a couple of them outfitted around 842 00:54:29,310 --> 00:54:34,170 here and they and they give you a variable pattern for the way 843 00:54:34,170 --> 00:54:38,280 the lights work. If it's kind of interesting, it does I don't 844 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,880 think it's flawless, because I have one near me. And I gotta go 845 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,610 visit these guys because I think they're probably right because 846 00:54:44,610 --> 00:54:48,480 it doesn't sound sexy, any of these levels, because it's not 847 00:54:48,660 --> 00:54:51,030 because it's not it doesn't involve consumer electronics, 848 00:54:51,030 --> 00:54:55,170 which seems to be the only thing that people would deem is sexy. 849 00:54:55,230 --> 00:54:59,400 I don't think traffic new traffic signaling systems. ever 850 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,760 be thought of as That. Is there anything that you see before 851 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,570 we're gonna wrap up? Is there anything that you see in the 852 00:55:06,570 --> 00:55:10,770 consumer electronics space, as you always have actually been 853 00:55:10,770 --> 00:55:16,290 more of a mass market, consumer electronics, you know, type of 854 00:55:16,290 --> 00:55:19,500 guy and so far as your marketing is concerned? Is there anything 855 00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:22,380 that you see out there that people should maybe pay some 856 00:55:22,380 --> 00:55:23,430 attention to in there not? 857 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:28,650 Absolutely. For the last eight years, I've been really deeply 858 00:55:28,650 --> 00:55:32,490 into health care and telemedicine and things of that 859 00:55:32,490 --> 00:55:37,770 sort. And the consumerization of health care is one of the 860 00:55:37,770 --> 00:55:40,200 biggest things that's already starting to happen. Now, it's 861 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,860 going to be every bit as big as electronic banking. Remember how 862 00:55:43,860 --> 00:55:47,910 skeptical people were 25 years ago about electronic banking and 863 00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:52,470 ATM machines? Well, it's going to be massive in in the 864 00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:55,470 healthcare industry, because more and more of the 865 00:55:55,470 --> 00:55:59,700 responsibility for your own wellness and health, for cost 866 00:55:59,700 --> 00:56:03,960 reasons and for better health reasons are going to be turned 867 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,290 over to people to manage themselves or manage members of 868 00:56:07,290 --> 00:56:11,700 their family. And it means that medical devices are going to be 869 00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:14,910 able to monitor things we're going to be able to customize 870 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,000 health for individuals admitted because you know, in healthcare, 871 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:23,190 you've got hospitals, doctors, and you've got insurance payers, 872 00:56:23,220 --> 00:56:25,740 and none of them share information with each other. And 873 00:56:25,740 --> 00:56:28,530 if you're a chronic care patient who has five or six specialists, 874 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,590 none of those specialists share information with each other. So 875 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,910 there's a long way to go to improve healthcare and rather 876 00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:40,380 than trying to change all of the, you know, incredible 877 00:56:40,410 --> 00:56:45,240 legacy, illogic things that have built up our healthcare system, 878 00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:48,120 it's a lot easier to start fresh and start with the with the 879 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,420 consumers slash patient, and start to give them better tools 880 00:56:51,420 --> 00:56:55,650 and work your way back and monitor them and create new data 881 00:56:55,650 --> 00:56:59,490 information on these patients. And that's what we're doing at a 882 00:56:59,490 --> 00:57:03,120 company I have called MD live, we have another one called rally 883 00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,630 health we sold to, to United Healthcare, which is a consumer 884 00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:08,910 engagement company, again, I always do the consumer side of 885 00:57:08,910 --> 00:57:14,190 it. And, you know, I've got still like, four others like 886 00:57:14,190 --> 00:57:18,570 that. So I'm very enthusiastic about the opportunities for the 887 00:57:18,570 --> 00:57:22,380 consumerization of healthcare, and many, many derivative 888 00:57:22,380 --> 00:57:23,580 businesses that will come out of it. 889 00:57:24,089 --> 00:57:26,999 I guess it would account for the popularity or, or at least the 890 00:57:26,999 --> 00:57:32,699 experimental popularity of these Fitbit type operations where you 891 00:57:32,699 --> 00:57:35,759 wear something and it helps you figure out what you're up to. 892 00:57:35,939 --> 00:57:39,929 Yeah, well, you know, some of that's novelty. I mean, I'm a 893 00:57:39,959 --> 00:57:44,339 founder of a company called misfit in Silicon Valley, we 894 00:57:44,339 --> 00:57:48,359 just raised a $40 million, round out 175 million pre and we were 895 00:57:48,359 --> 00:57:53,069 way oversubscribed. So but we're doing a lot more than just the 896 00:57:53,099 --> 00:57:56,369 devices and they're quickly commoditizing. We're heavily 897 00:57:56,369 --> 00:58:01,229 into data analytics. So we'll have about 240 people in the 898 00:58:01,229 --> 00:58:05,039 company this year. And most of them are in the software and 899 00:58:05,039 --> 00:58:07,799 data analytics side of the business. We're very big in 900 00:58:07,799 --> 00:58:12,419 Asia, we sell in 51 countries, and what are the Fitbits in 901 00:58:12,419 --> 00:58:14,759 those type of products. So the first generation is kind of like 902 00:58:14,759 --> 00:58:17,189 looking at the the early personal computers, you know, 903 00:58:17,189 --> 00:58:19,799 they sort of tell you what's that there's something 904 00:58:19,799 --> 00:58:21,779 interesting going to happen, but they aren't really the 905 00:58:21,779 --> 00:58:25,439 interesting things themselves. We're gonna see some incredible 906 00:58:25,439 --> 00:58:28,259 advancements. For instance, sleep is one of the areas I'm 907 00:58:28,259 --> 00:58:32,429 particularly interested in sleep deprivation is the highest cause 908 00:58:32,429 --> 00:58:35,669 of loss work, worker productivity, and American. And 909 00:58:35,759 --> 00:58:39,989 there are lots of things we can do beyond just sleep apnea. In 910 00:58:39,989 --> 00:58:44,339 terms of improving people's wellness, through sleep, you 911 00:58:44,339 --> 00:58:47,519 have high comorbidity, which means high correlation between 912 00:58:47,909 --> 00:58:55,049 sleep apnea and other chronic diseases like COPD and PTs PSTD. 913 00:58:55,319 --> 00:59:00,449 And type two diabetes, hypertension, congestive heart 914 00:59:00,449 --> 00:59:03,449 failure, things of that sort. That's where the big, you know, 915 00:59:03,449 --> 00:59:06,359 cost of our healthcare system is and these things are all tied 916 00:59:06,359 --> 00:59:10,829 together, particularly the returning veterans coming back 917 00:59:10,829 --> 00:59:15,119 from Afghanistan and Iraq. You know, we we were working with 918 00:59:15,119 --> 00:59:19,439 the VA hospitals, two and a half years ago, and we saw that the 919 00:59:19,469 --> 00:59:22,529 this crisis that suddenly caught everybody by surprise that these 920 00:59:22,859 --> 00:59:26,099 that the VA hospitals weren't giving very good service and 921 00:59:26,249 --> 00:59:30,449 there was a backlog of over two years for some procedures with 922 00:59:30,449 --> 00:59:34,379 these vets. We were seeing it all. And we I remember sitting 923 00:59:34,379 --> 00:59:37,709 around with my my colleagues saying Yeah, somebody is going 924 00:59:37,709 --> 00:59:40,319 to discover a crisis here in a year or two and of course, here 925 00:59:40,319 --> 00:59:43,829 it is. So I don't know why these things are so much a surprise to 926 00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:48,989 people even in the VA or the or the government but they're 927 00:59:48,989 --> 00:59:53,909 pretty obvious when you're sitting there watching as you 928 00:59:53,909 --> 00:59:56,279 know, someone in the industry themselves know in the private 929 00:59:56,279 --> 00:59:56,879 sector side. 930 00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,400 Well, that's so how many companies are you running? Are 931 00:59:59,430 --> 01:00:00,750 you your how Are you part? 932 01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,470 I do no heavy lifting. I don't run a single company. I helped 933 01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:10,920 found several of them. I'm an investor. I'm on the board of 934 01:00:11,580 --> 01:00:14,820 many of them. I like private companies, not public companies. 935 01:00:15,210 --> 01:00:19,740 And I'm the Rainmaker. I bring in this strategic relationships 936 01:00:19,740 --> 01:00:23,760 and open doors and recruit talent, things of that sort. So 937 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:25,140 I'm involved in about 15 of 938 01:00:25,140 --> 01:00:27,720 it, as I recall, you are up in Vermont or New Hampshire or 939 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:33,390 someplace like that for a while. may mean, right. Yeah, Maine, 940 01:00:33,780 --> 01:00:37,530 which is a far cry from Silicon Valley. And now you're in 941 01:00:37,530 --> 01:00:41,520 Florida, which is a far cry from Maine. Well, 942 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:47,280 Maine, I went to Penn, in fact, you probably remember about 943 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:53,040 Metcalf. Oh, yeah. So Bob is one of my very best friends. And he 944 01:00:53,130 --> 01:00:57,210 and I lived near each other in Woodside and we live near each 945 01:00:57,210 --> 01:01:00,180 other up in Maine in the summertime. And we've co founded 946 01:01:00,180 --> 01:01:04,290 an organization called Pop tech. And we were back in the in the 947 01:01:04,290 --> 01:01:09,180 90s, helping demystify high technology for non technical 948 01:01:09,180 --> 01:01:13,020 people. And we brought in a lot of friends from MIT and Carnegie 949 01:01:13,020 --> 01:01:17,820 Mellon and Stanford and various places to help us with it. And 950 01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:22,950 so there's this quite an interesting, technical related 951 01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:26,190 community up in Maine in the summertime, especially out of 952 01:01:26,190 --> 01:01:30,360 the Boston area. So I was there. But then I got divorced. And so 953 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,260 I don't go to Maine anymore. So I'm now down in Florida, and I 954 01:01:34,260 --> 01:01:37,710 spend time in New York, and I'm out in California, you see a 955 01:01:37,710 --> 01:01:38,970 couple times a month as well. 956 01:01:39,089 --> 01:01:41,489 All right, well, I think that'll conclude we should talk again 957 01:01:41,489 --> 01:01:45,239 sometime and maybe in the next six months or something and 958 01:01:45,269 --> 01:01:51,269 catch up with the latest sounds good. Thanks, John. Was John 959 01:01:51,269 --> 01:01:53,219 Skelly. I hope you got something out of that want to remind 960 01:01:53,219 --> 01:01:56,009 everybody that we do have a show coming up on Thursday, we have a 961 01:01:56,009 --> 01:01:58,559 show coming up twice a week, every week, and it's going to be 962 01:01:58,559 --> 01:02:02,939 live again Thursday morning. divorce.org/and. A, we will be 963 01:02:02,939 --> 01:02:06,209 naming all the people that became executive producers for 964 01:02:06,209 --> 01:02:10,139 these last two shows on that show and crediting everybody as 965 01:02:10,139 --> 01:02:14,549 usual for helping us dvorak.org/na We do need your 966 01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:18,329 continued support. So let's move on to Bob Ohio, who is a 967 01:02:18,329 --> 01:02:22,169 microphone designer but also as a sound guy who is very famous 968 01:02:22,169 --> 01:02:26,039 for creating the big wall of sound that became popular 969 01:02:26,069 --> 01:02:32,249 popular with the power trios of the 70s. Very interesting 970 01:02:32,249 --> 01:02:36,179 character, I had a good time talking to him. So I'm talking 971 01:02:36,179 --> 01:02:39,659 here with Bob Heil, and who is you're in Illinois. 972 01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:44,460 I actually am in Missouri right now. That's where my home my 973 01:02:44,460 --> 01:02:49,560 station lab and all that. You Ozarks, but our plant is back in 974 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:50,070 Illinois, 975 01:02:50,130 --> 01:02:53,250 so you're up in the Ozarks and up died round Branson, or 976 01:02:53,250 --> 01:02:54,150 someplace like that. 977 01:02:54,210 --> 01:02:58,860 Uh huh. Right at 3540 minutes north of blant. Branson, just 978 01:02:58,860 --> 01:03:00,390 north of Springfield, Missouri. 979 01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,300 I've always I've been in the Ozarks a couple of times in 980 01:03:03,300 --> 01:03:06,870 Arkansas. And one of the things I think is cool if they have 981 01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:11,760 wineries up there. Yeah. And one of them just actually make some 982 01:03:11,820 --> 01:03:16,440 dynamite product. This familiar something or other I can't quite 983 01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:20,640 remember their name, but they make a tremendous high quality 984 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,830 wines. Drive up there some time and get some nice wine growing 985 01:03:25,830 --> 01:03:31,290 area I have to say. So how did you get started in audio in the 986 01:03:31,290 --> 01:03:32,160 first place? 987 01:03:32,250 --> 01:03:35,070 I guess it all comes about because of ham radio. 988 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,430 So you are what made you become a hammer in the first place. 989 01:03:38,670 --> 01:03:43,500 One of my high school chums when I was a sophomore, actually, 990 01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:48,000 it's kind of a interesting story in that I had been playing 991 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:51,360 accordion when I was 10. I think everybody was issued an 992 01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:59,160 accordion taste. And my high school chum his dad's was the 993 01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:03,990 organist at the Baptist Church in Marisa Illinois, little town 994 01:04:03,990 --> 01:04:08,340 of 2000 people out in the coal fields in Southern Illinois. And 995 01:04:08,340 --> 01:04:11,790 he also his dad was also the music director, the grade school 996 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:17,520 man. I was about 12 years old. I used to go down to his house 997 01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:23,970 because he had a brand new Hammond organ and his son was my 998 01:04:23,970 --> 01:04:27,270 best bud there and I'd go down and play that organ and went 999 01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:30,750 down there one time and I heard all of this stuff in the back a 1000 01:04:30,750 --> 01:04:34,140 bunch of tones and stuff and after I got through playing the 1001 01:04:34,140 --> 01:04:37,560 old Hammond organ, I went back there and my my friend George 1002 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:42,840 was learning the Morse code to get his ham radio license. And 1003 01:04:43,290 --> 01:04:46,620 long story short is that I followed him and a couple of 1004 01:04:46,620 --> 01:04:52,170 years later I got my license and we became very involved in ham 1005 01:04:52,170 --> 01:04:56,700 radio and also at the same time very involved in the in the 1006 01:04:56,700 --> 01:05:00,240 Oregon situation my mother and father bought me a beat Free 1007 01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,350 when I was 12 years old, which was really something in those 1008 01:05:04,350 --> 01:05:12,360 days, it was actually a C two model. But I then just I both of 1009 01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,180 those hobbies kind of went together and they were hobbies 1010 01:05:15,180 --> 01:05:21,960 at that time. But then I ended up becoming the substitute 1011 01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:27,600 organist at the Fox Theater at the age of 15. For Stan, Ken, I 1012 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,930 became his protege. He taught me so much stuff about the 1013 01:05:30,930 --> 01:05:35,340 Wurlitzer and I learned to listen that this is important in 1014 01:05:35,340 --> 01:05:40,950 that we had to voice and tune those six 7000 pipes in that Fox 1015 01:05:40,950 --> 01:05:49,050 organ. And I he taught me how to listen harmonically dissect what 1016 01:05:49,050 --> 01:05:54,300 you're hearing, it's not just in tune, but does the note beside 1017 01:05:54,300 --> 01:05:58,650 it have the same harmonic characteristic as a note, above 1018 01:05:58,650 --> 01:06:02,130 it, and so on. And you had to go through 1000s of pipes and they 1019 01:06:02,130 --> 01:06:06,090 all had to had to sound the same harmonically. And of course, in 1020 01:06:06,090 --> 01:06:09,600 tune, while I learned how to listen, it was just a real 1021 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:15,900 blessing. And that's how it started i i played, oh, gosh, I 1022 01:06:15,900 --> 01:06:20,280 played about 15 years professionally. And I had a pipe 1023 01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,490 organ in a restaurant in St. Louis, I built that pipe organ. 1024 01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:27,180 We built the pipes and stuff over wicks pipe organ in 1025 01:06:27,180 --> 01:06:30,510 Highland, Illinois, and Martin wick became a very dear friend. 1026 01:06:31,050 --> 01:06:34,380 But I could do all the electronics of it to a lot of 1027 01:06:34,380 --> 01:06:40,470 relays and all kinds of switches and stuff. And the two just, 1028 01:06:40,770 --> 01:06:43,650 they just fit together. So well in my life, 1029 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:47,190 I try to explain a little bit more I, the funny thing is about 1030 01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:51,660 this tuning by ear and listening to harmonics versus just in tune 1031 01:06:52,410 --> 01:06:55,980 notes. I've heard this from motorcycle repairman that are 1032 01:06:55,980 --> 01:07:00,960 really good. They say that they their real instrument. At the 1033 01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:06,600 end of the tuning cycle is the hear what the cylinder sound 1034 01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,000 like as it because it come out of the pipes, it's really 1035 01:07:09,030 --> 01:07:13,650 listening process more than anything else, what so you're 1036 01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:19,230 you're so if I took a and just tuned, say 20 pipes, just by the 1037 01:07:19,230 --> 01:07:24,480 notes with a tuning device, how would that differ from some 1038 01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,150 harmonic information being missed out on? 1039 01:07:28,140 --> 01:07:31,650 Well, they would be in tune, you would know it immediately. If 1040 01:07:31,650 --> 01:07:36,360 they're not in tune. However, one of them might have more mid 1041 01:07:36,390 --> 01:07:40,860 more mid range sound, and the other one might have more top 1042 01:07:40,860 --> 01:07:45,690 end. And then the other one might have a little lower 1043 01:07:45,690 --> 01:07:48,900 frequency than the other. Now that has nothing to do with the 1044 01:07:49,380 --> 01:07:56,490 the pitch it has to do with what it sounds like. And like in the 1045 01:07:56,490 --> 01:08:02,610 pipe organ, we have ranks, sets of pipes you anywhere from 61 1046 01:08:02,610 --> 01:08:07,740 out and 90 plus pipes in a rank we'd have a clarinet, they 1047 01:08:07,740 --> 01:08:13,020 actually sounded exactly like a clarinet that they would be from 1048 01:08:13,020 --> 01:08:19,890 one inch out to 16 foot. And as you go, let's take middle C you 1049 01:08:19,890 --> 01:08:27,210 can see that in your in your mind, middle C and as you go to 1050 01:08:27,210 --> 01:08:32,340 C to D right beside it. r e r f is your run up and down those 1051 01:08:32,340 --> 01:08:37,020 two are three notes. Are they harmonically perfect? Do they 1052 01:08:37,020 --> 01:08:43,440 both have the same balance of highs, mids and lows, of course, 1053 01:08:43,500 --> 01:08:48,000 they would be in tune. But we're talking about the harmonic 1054 01:08:48,030 --> 01:08:53,040 content of how they sound to each other because we want them 1055 01:08:53,310 --> 01:08:58,110 to all sound the same. And that there are two adjustments on 1056 01:08:58,110 --> 01:09:02,700 pipes, one at the top that you lengthen or shorten the pipe for 1057 01:09:02,700 --> 01:09:07,860 the pitch. The other one is down on the read. There's a read in 1058 01:09:07,860 --> 01:09:10,680 the bottom of that clarinet pipe. Same thing with the 1059 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:15,030 trumpet pipes who actually have bells of brass trumpets from one 1060 01:09:15,030 --> 01:09:20,880 inch to 16 foot and they look exactly like a trumpet. They are 1061 01:09:20,910 --> 01:09:24,840 the end the bells of trumpets but instead of somebody blowing 1062 01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:30,570 in them, it's their set into a chest that has air valves in it 1063 01:09:30,750 --> 01:09:34,050 and push the key it causes air to come up. That's how it works. 1064 01:09:34,230 --> 01:09:39,750 But they all have to be harmonically related to the next 1065 01:09:39,750 --> 01:09:40,710 one beside it and 1066 01:09:40,710 --> 01:09:43,920 how long does it take? How long does it take to tune something 1067 01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:45,660 like that? Wurlitzer Oh, 1068 01:09:46,440 --> 01:09:50,910 and or an instrument like that. It could be days it could be a 1069 01:09:50,910 --> 01:09:51,330 week. 1070 01:09:52,590 --> 01:09:53,370 You still play? 1071 01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,960 Yeah, I just played a concert Friday night in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 1072 01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:03,690 The Sooner Chapter of the American Theatre organization, a 1073 01:10:03,690 --> 01:10:08,730 very nice instrument that the club has restored over the years 1074 01:10:08,730 --> 01:10:13,710 and they have it in a technical college theater. And we had a 1075 01:10:13,710 --> 01:10:17,790 whole bunch of people there and I still play I love playing 1076 01:10:17,790 --> 01:10:22,290 these concerts in these old theaters. Then, of Friday 1077 01:10:22,290 --> 01:10:28,890 morning, I played at the Miami Coleman theater, just a gorgeous 1078 01:10:28,890 --> 01:10:32,910 theater in Miami, Oklahoma, and that's just across the line of 1079 01:10:33,420 --> 01:10:36,840 Missouri, Arkansas and where they all meet right there 1080 01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:41,610 together. Kent. In fact, I went Missouri, Kansas, back to 1081 01:10:41,610 --> 01:10:45,030 Missouri, right during the corner is Miami and they have a 1082 01:10:45,060 --> 01:10:47,550 gorgeous little Oregon. And I played there too. And I'll be 1083 01:10:47,550 --> 01:10:49,350 doing more concerts this summer there. 1084 01:10:49,530 --> 01:10:51,030 Are you Yes, I 1085 01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:51,780 love playing Do 1086 01:10:51,780 --> 01:10:54,690 you like going around the country playing alien 1087 01:10:54,690 --> 01:10:57,270 instruments like different organs? Because they're all I 1088 01:10:57,270 --> 01:10:59,760 guess there's very few of them that are standardized there, 1089 01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:02,580 especially in big churches, they would all be different. 1090 01:11:03,900 --> 01:11:07,650 Yeah, the only thing is, I don't play any church stuff. It's all 1091 01:11:07,650 --> 01:11:11,430 theatrical stuff. Wurlitzer is mostly and and all the word it 1092 01:11:11,430 --> 01:11:15,480 says basically, we're the same, the consoles were the same that 1093 01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,020 the clarinet stopping and just close your eyes, they are right 1094 01:11:19,020 --> 01:11:22,440 here about one o'clock to die patients, stops there at about 1095 01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:26,400 two o'clock to trumpets are here and so on. And so the consoles 1096 01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,420 are laid out the same. And you can pretty much have no problem 1097 01:11:30,420 --> 01:11:34,410 with that the situation is how they perform how they work. And 1098 01:11:34,410 --> 01:11:37,770 if they're tuned and voiced properly, and so on. And yes, 1099 01:11:37,770 --> 01:11:42,810 you're right, they all differ no matter what they are. And it's 1100 01:11:43,380 --> 01:11:46,200 it's kind of fun. And of course, that's part of the artistry of 1101 01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,460 old theater organist is to be able to pile on a strange 1102 01:11:50,460 --> 01:11:54,330 instrument and make it sound really good. And that's that's 1103 01:11:54,330 --> 01:11:54,990 part of it. 1104 01:11:56,310 --> 01:12:01,740 So this ear development where he fine tuned your your abilities 1105 01:12:01,740 --> 01:12:05,670 just for your sensory awareness of the differences in the 1106 01:12:05,670 --> 01:12:11,070 harmonics that evolved into you becoming, I guess, where you are 1107 01:12:11,070 --> 01:12:13,050 today, and so far as the microphones are concerned, but 1108 01:12:13,050 --> 01:12:19,980 in between, you were the guy who did a lot of rock concerts. And 1109 01:12:20,010 --> 01:12:23,760 and Well, from what I understand, pretty much invented 1110 01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,960 the idea of a wall of sound, literally a wall of sound where 1111 01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:30,990 there's so much noise coming out. It just blows people away. 1112 01:12:32,490 --> 01:12:35,400 Yeah, that was an interesting thing I had played all those 1113 01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:40,200 years and I got I really got tired and got married, wanted to 1114 01:12:40,260 --> 01:12:43,920 stay home at night a little bit. So I was very fortunate. I go 1115 01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:47,520 back to my little hometown, 50 mile southeast St. Louis, 1116 01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:54,240 Marisa, Illinois. And I was so fortunate I got a Hammond organ 1117 01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:58,530 franchise and opened a little music store there. That's pretty 1118 01:12:58,530 --> 01:13:03,090 amazing. Because it Hammond I had worked for them when I was 1119 01:13:03,090 --> 01:13:08,010 1920 years old i i was a demonstrator at the NAMM shows 1120 01:13:08,010 --> 01:13:12,750 and their music shows. And I would play the organ to 1121 01:13:12,750 --> 01:13:18,030 demonstrate it in their booth and so on. But I so I knew the 1122 01:13:18,030 --> 01:13:21,240 right people on Okay, let's see if I can do this. And it 1123 01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,420 happened. I got a Hammond organ franchise. So I started selling 1124 01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:28,740 lots of Hammond organs. Because I was well known in the St. 1125 01:13:28,740 --> 01:13:31,980 Louis area because of playing at the fox and the restaurants and 1126 01:13:31,980 --> 01:13:36,480 the TV and the radio and all that. But it was very strange 1127 01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:42,210 that I started getting these kids would come in with their 1128 01:13:42,210 --> 01:13:46,080 amplifiers and never forget one of the first he came in and he 1129 01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,640 had this box and he said this a music store and I said yes sir. 1130 01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:55,530 What's up me? Oh, my amplifiers broke. And it was a Fender 1131 01:13:55,590 --> 01:14:00,570 guitar amp. I'd never seen one. And being a ham radio operator. 1132 01:14:00,570 --> 01:14:03,690 I was very inquisitive. And I turned it upside down. And what 1133 01:14:03,690 --> 01:14:07,410 did I see? A pair of five, year five, year four and a pair of 1134 01:14:07,410 --> 01:14:11,880 606 as well. Those are common parts of a modulator and Nard 1135 01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:17,700 ham transmitters but turned upside down and I knew exactly 1136 01:14:17,700 --> 01:14:20,610 what he probably tried to make it go to 12 and it only went to 1137 01:14:20,610 --> 01:14:25,020 10 and blew it up. So I had to spare parts there and about 1520 1138 01:14:25,020 --> 01:14:29,070 minutes I had it fixed and he was just freaked out. Oh my 1139 01:14:29,070 --> 01:14:32,580 goodness. You didn't even have one of them schematic. No, I 1140 01:14:32,580 --> 01:14:35,760 didn't have one of them schematic thing. And the word 1141 01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:39,270 started flying around Southern Illinois in the St. Louis area. 1142 01:14:39,660 --> 01:14:43,680 There's this guy with a soldering iron and band started 1143 01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:48,420 coming to me to fix their stuff. And then at the same time, the 1144 01:14:48,420 --> 01:14:53,820 promoters in St. Louis. One called me one time and I wanted 1145 01:14:53,820 --> 01:14:58,980 to rent a Hammond organ. And that just parlayed into all 1146 01:14:58,980 --> 01:15:02,580 kinds of things with you Because in those days, Hammond organ 1147 01:15:02,580 --> 01:15:06,390 stores were Steinway dealers and all as you never even couldn't 1148 01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:09,090 even walk in a store unless you were in a suit practically. 1149 01:15:09,540 --> 01:15:13,200 Well, here I was as freaky little music shop. I started in 1150 01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:17,310 Southern Illinois and you could buy Hammond organ there and we 1151 01:15:17,310 --> 01:15:21,120 started renting them, renting them to like Janis Joplin and 1152 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,560 all these great bands that would come through Stevie. When he was 1153 01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:32,070 a little baby. I call it but the promoters had to, they had to 1154 01:15:32,130 --> 01:15:36,450 rent a Hammond organ that needed to come to downtown, they'd have 1155 01:15:36,450 --> 01:15:40,590 to have this much PA and I thought to that, well, I started 1156 01:15:40,590 --> 01:15:43,740 going to these rock concerts, and I'm going to what is going 1157 01:15:43,740 --> 01:15:47,400 on, I have these little bitty junky little columns and four or 1158 01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,480 five speakers in them to fill it 15,000 seat room, you gotta be 1159 01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:56,520 kidding. And so, another blessing hits me one day about 1160 01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:01,650 67. That would have been, I roll by the Fox Theater hadn't been 1161 01:16:01,650 --> 01:16:04,800 there now and a few years, I want to say hi to the stage 1162 01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:08,370 manager. I grew up to the back door. And here's these great big 1163 01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:13,440 speakers out in the in the alley. So when I said, What's 1164 01:16:13,440 --> 01:16:16,680 going on here, he said, Oh, we're putting in new speakers. 1165 01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:19,140 So what's all those out? Now? We're throwing them away? I 1166 01:16:19,140 --> 01:16:22,860 said, Really? Can I have them? So I went and got a truck and 1167 01:16:22,860 --> 01:16:27,030 haul these Alltech a fours not all tech a fours. Huge. Yes. I'm 1168 01:16:27,030 --> 01:16:30,750 very familiar with that speaker. Yeah, they're, you know, they're 1169 01:16:30,750 --> 01:16:34,410 huge. They're 10 foot wide and about six or eight. Hi, I had 1170 01:16:34,410 --> 01:16:40,380 four of them and had some, some JBL horns I acquired and some 1171 01:16:40,380 --> 01:16:44,070 tweeters, and I needed to get some amplifiers. I had heard 1172 01:16:44,100 --> 01:16:47,610 Macintosh was pretty good. So I bought a bunch of Macintosh 1173 01:16:47,610 --> 01:16:51,990 amps. And the next thing you know, I had this really far out 1174 01:16:51,990 --> 01:16:58,920 PA and I didn't know no one else was had not done this. And I get 1175 01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:03,390 a call one day from that stage manager at the fox. This would 1176 01:17:03,390 --> 01:17:08,100 have been in 7071. Hey, you still got those speakers? And I 1177 01:17:08,100 --> 01:17:10,950 said, yeah, do they work? I said, Yeah, I got him hooked up. 1178 01:17:11,010 --> 01:17:14,670 He said, Here, talk to this guy. They came in here tonight. And 1179 01:17:14,730 --> 01:17:18,090 their pa didn't show up. He handed the phone to Jerry 1180 01:17:18,090 --> 01:17:22,680 Garcia. The Grateful Dead showed up at the Fox Theater, my 1181 01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:27,330 beloved Fox. And I've been hanging around in since I was 1182 01:17:27,330 --> 01:17:34,950 15. They had no PA and I told him what I had. He said well get 1183 01:17:34,950 --> 01:17:38,850 it up here. And they were incredibly impressed because it 1184 01:17:38,850 --> 01:17:42,450 was something special. And there's an article you can go on 1185 01:17:42,810 --> 01:17:46,920 the Internet into Google and put the night rock'n'roll sound was 1186 01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:52,110 born. And there was a guy there that obviously was there because 1187 01:17:52,110 --> 01:17:56,130 every every word of that is true, and how it happened and 1188 01:17:56,700 --> 01:17:59,370 out of there that night, they took us right out of there on 1189 01:17:59,370 --> 01:18:03,030 tour to finish up their tour because they had no pa it had 1190 01:18:03,030 --> 01:18:08,160 got confiscated the night before they hit St. Louis by the drug 1191 01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:12,420 agents and the FBI and whatever because their sound guy wasn't 1192 01:18:12,420 --> 01:18:16,590 supposed to be out of the state of California. I was Lin put all 1193 01:18:16,590 --> 01:18:20,760 that together. So again, it was another blessing that happened 1194 01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:26,820 to me these things just happen. And I from there, we hit the 1195 01:18:26,820 --> 01:18:29,970 front page of billboard that we had this little store in 1196 01:18:29,970 --> 01:18:34,440 Southern Illinois got the Grateful Dead sound contract, 1197 01:18:34,890 --> 01:18:39,540 and all kinds of promoters and people managers were calling me 1198 01:18:40,110 --> 01:18:45,570 in 1971. I got a call from the who. And that started another 1199 01:18:45,570 --> 01:18:52,080 one I was I was just bombarded with people wanting that PA. So 1200 01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:55,080 we built two more and we had three of them on the road during 1201 01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:58,950 the 70s. We did all kinds of stuff with humble pie and 1202 01:18:59,550 --> 01:19:03,030 Frampton and of course Joe Walsh that's how I really started that 1203 01:19:03,030 --> 01:19:09,180 scene was back in 68. I got with chose James Gang and Joe and I 1204 01:19:09,180 --> 01:19:11,970 after I was on tour with him a couple of weeks found out we 1205 01:19:11,970 --> 01:19:15,390 were both hams and it changed our whole relationship. I mean, 1206 01:19:15,390 --> 01:19:20,430 it's it's a relationship you could only dream for because it 1207 01:19:20,430 --> 01:19:26,880 wasn't any kind of oh gosh, he's a he's a rock guitarist or the 1208 01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:30,720 star or whatever. He's a ham radio friend of mine and we just 1209 01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:35,640 have so much fun together, wiring things and blowing things 1210 01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:39,930 up and all that but that's that's how it really all started 1211 01:19:39,930 --> 01:19:45,060 is right there in that late 60s, early 70s With this monster pa 1212 01:19:45,060 --> 01:19:50,040 that I had built and then Joe wanted to go on his own and he 1213 01:19:50,070 --> 01:19:54,000 started Barnstorm, he wanted to put that together so he and I 1214 01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,940 put it together. I helped him get all the equipment together 1215 01:19:56,940 --> 01:19:59,340 and then we had to figure out how he was going to do this 1216 01:19:59,340 --> 01:20:04,080 song. He He wrote called Rocky Mountain way. He had recorded it 1217 01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,980 in his studio and use Pete Drake's little what he called 1218 01:20:07,980 --> 01:20:12,660 Talking actuator was a little bitty three inch speaker and a 1219 01:20:12,660 --> 01:20:17,220 funnel. And it was real in the studio was fine. It was real 1220 01:20:17,250 --> 01:20:20,130 weak or when very strong. And he said, How are we going to do 1221 01:20:20,130 --> 01:20:25,920 this live? So, Joe, when I got a big old 250 Watt JBL driver and 1222 01:20:27,450 --> 01:20:31,170 built a little low pass and high pass filter, put it together, 1223 01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:36,450 and the TalkBox was born. And I didn't think about it much. It 1224 01:20:36,450 --> 01:20:40,890 was Joe's thing I didn't, I didn't think beyond that. But 1225 01:20:40,890 --> 01:20:45,120 all of a sudden, when that song became a hit, I thought, Whoa, I 1226 01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,820 better do something. So we started building them in our 1227 01:20:47,820 --> 01:20:51,870 plant where we were building amplifiers and speakers and all 1228 01:20:51,870 --> 01:20:56,250 this sound gear. We did a lot of firsts in there. We built the 1229 01:20:56,250 --> 01:21:00,270 first modular mixer, the first modular power, amp, all these 1230 01:21:00,270 --> 01:21:06,030 many, many things, 1000s of speaker cabinets. Paul clips was 1231 01:21:06,030 --> 01:21:10,080 a great, great mentor of mine, Paul called me one day and 1232 01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:14,400 wanted to come and visit me and he did and we became great 1233 01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:18,930 friends. And he helped me so much learn a lot about acoustics 1234 01:21:18,930 --> 01:21:23,490 and how to match speakers to the boxes, you're building and tune 1235 01:21:23,490 --> 01:21:26,790 them and free air and all of this. And it just become a 1236 01:21:26,790 --> 01:21:31,350 marvelous thing. And that plant was where we developed this 1237 01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:37,200 TalkBox and Peter Frampton, his little girlfriend, Penny McCall 1238 01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:42,270 called me one day and she said, I have got to have a Christmas 1239 01:21:42,270 --> 01:21:48,030 present for Peter, this would have been 74. Just hang on. I 1240 01:21:48,030 --> 01:21:52,590 had known Peter because we had done dozens and dozens of 1241 01:21:52,590 --> 01:21:57,270 concerts with humble pie when he came over here. And when he left 1242 01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:59,970 the group, of course, we continued with humble pie Steve 1243 01:21:59,970 --> 01:22:05,040 Marriott in a group. But I sent that to that TalkBox to Penny 1244 01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:10,080 and she gave it to him. So he Frampton ended up with one of 1245 01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,900 the Heil talk boxes for Christmas. And you can write the 1246 01:22:12,900 --> 01:22:14,460 rest of Peters history. I 1247 01:22:14,460 --> 01:22:15,720 got umbrage with that thing. 1248 01:22:17,850 --> 01:22:20,820 There's a nice video on our website, there's a whole bunch 1249 01:22:20,820 --> 01:22:25,140 of videos, where you got to sit down with Joe and Charlie 1250 01:22:25,140 --> 01:22:28,410 Daniels and all kinds of people. But one of them's with Pete with 1251 01:22:28,410 --> 01:22:30,870 Peter in Nashville a couple years ago, it's really great 1252 01:22:30,870 --> 01:22:34,620 because we were reminiscing all the days that he and I met on 1253 01:22:34,620 --> 01:22:37,620 the road and did so many things. And then how important to talk 1254 01:22:37,620 --> 01:22:39,120 box was to his career. 1255 01:22:41,010 --> 01:22:46,710 I was talking to you the other day about about standing waves 1256 01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:51,060 floating around in an audience, which is one of the things that 1257 01:22:51,060 --> 01:22:53,400 Grateful Dead and maybe one other band, I think the 1258 01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:57,300 charlatans that used to be in the West Coast, accomplish this 1259 01:22:57,300 --> 01:23:03,150 feat. And it was used for the purposes of making you feel 1260 01:23:03,150 --> 01:23:07,170 funny in the audience. And if you were on certain drugs, it 1261 01:23:07,170 --> 01:23:12,120 would be enhancing. Now you're familiar with their their 1262 01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:16,950 ability to do that, and how it's accomplished. Is there any way 1263 01:23:16,950 --> 01:23:18,780 you can even explain it to anybody? 1264 01:23:20,670 --> 01:23:27,210 Well, I can take you back to late 30s with Paul clips. Paul 1265 01:23:27,210 --> 01:23:32,340 clip was hired by the government they gave him about I think it 1266 01:23:32,340 --> 01:23:37,980 was 200 a week or whatever, a large ammunition depot in Hope, 1267 01:23:37,980 --> 01:23:45,060 Arkansas around hope Arkansas. And he had developed this horn, 1268 01:23:45,450 --> 01:23:49,860 it was so big. He built it on the back of back of a flatbed of 1269 01:23:49,860 --> 01:23:55,740 a 40 foot semi. And this was a horn that after he got it all 1270 01:23:55,740 --> 01:24:00,750 together, got it tuned and all this but the speakers on it 1271 01:24:00,750 --> 01:24:07,260 would do like two cycles one or two way down there in audible to 1272 01:24:07,260 --> 01:24:15,030 you. And when you walked in front of it. You didn't know 1273 01:24:15,030 --> 01:24:18,480 what hit you. It was really weird. You couldn't hear 1274 01:24:18,480 --> 01:24:26,490 anything. But the senses of your body would just go crazy. And it 1275 01:24:26,490 --> 01:24:32,610 was going to be a weapon on the front line in Europe for World 1276 01:24:32,610 --> 01:24:40,080 War Two. Fortunately, the war ended and of course before he 1277 01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:44,250 got it done, he never got to take it on the frontline. But it 1278 01:24:44,250 --> 01:24:53,580 was out in this in his I call it I call it his his play toy and 1279 01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:58,470 it was really a workshop for him if he had like a real a one room 1280 01:24:58,470 --> 01:25:02,070 schoolhouse with all of his urine stuff in any had his plant 1281 01:25:02,070 --> 01:25:07,980 where he built his folded horns. But he had this, this huge horn, 1282 01:25:08,250 --> 01:25:11,730 and it was going to be a weapon. And that's kind of I think where 1283 01:25:11,730 --> 01:25:16,140 you going with this is that you can cause your senses to go just 1284 01:25:16,500 --> 01:25:21,750 crazy with all these super low frequencies that you can't hear. 1285 01:25:22,380 --> 01:25:25,950 But it causes you to go and just you don't know what's happening. 1286 01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:31,110 Well, there was an element of that in this particular sound 1287 01:25:31,140 --> 01:25:33,120 because it didn't really have anything to do with the music. 1288 01:25:34,260 --> 01:25:39,690 Right? Right, they would just do some sub harmonic frequencies 1289 01:25:39,690 --> 01:25:44,820 way down at one to two to five cycles way down in there. You 1290 01:25:44,820 --> 01:25:50,850 didn't hear it, because there was no actual tuning or tone to 1291 01:25:50,850 --> 01:25:56,580 it. But it was just, it was movement of air, a lot of air. 1292 01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:01,740 And that's what happens is your senses of your body and know 1293 01:26:01,740 --> 01:26:05,370 that and his it's really an amazing thing. 1294 01:26:06,480 --> 01:26:11,940 It's very rarely performed. Now what did he keep? did? Did the 1295 01:26:11,940 --> 01:26:13,980 Eclipse keep that big giant horn? 1296 01:26:15,930 --> 01:26:20,070 I don't know. It probably is there. It's rather interesting. 1297 01:26:20,460 --> 01:26:24,300 I remember one day took me down in the basement of this like one 1298 01:26:24,300 --> 01:26:27,240 room schoolhouse, we couldn't even get in at it. We just had 1299 01:26:27,270 --> 01:26:30,990 all kinds of what I call carcasses of speaker cabinets. 1300 01:26:30,990 --> 01:26:34,860 And he stood on the steps until you say I see that that's how I 1301 01:26:34,860 --> 01:26:37,830 did this. And that one did this and he's pointing out all of 1302 01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:43,650 these prototypes or experiments or whatever. I can't answer but 1303 01:26:43,650 --> 01:26:48,090 I would imagine that is in that basement still now they're 1304 01:26:48,510 --> 01:26:53,580 they're doing a thing at clips. They're forming a museum for 1305 01:26:53,580 --> 01:26:58,410 some of his very early work. So that might be part of it. But he 1306 01:26:58,410 --> 01:27:03,840 was an amazing man and did so much for audio i i still remain 1307 01:27:04,500 --> 01:27:10,770 my thinking that he was the father of Hi Fi between him and 1308 01:27:10,770 --> 01:27:14,550 George Wright, the great theater organist, who was my great 1309 01:27:14,550 --> 01:27:19,440 mentor. George had some wonderful recordings of the word 1310 01:27:19,440 --> 01:27:25,530 sir. And they were well done. And oh 54 567 on the Hi Fi 1311 01:27:25,530 --> 01:27:32,280 label. And this, this record album would get down to 30 1312 01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:39,540 cycles easily. But it also would have it had a 32 foot Borden in 1313 01:27:39,540 --> 01:27:44,700 it. That sucker would get down to 16 cycles. And the Hi Fi guys 1314 01:27:44,730 --> 01:27:50,100 loved it. And he had almost had a hit. They caught up on the top 1315 01:27:50,100 --> 01:27:54,210 10 called quiet village. Yeah, there was an orchestration of 1316 01:27:54,210 --> 01:28:00,360 that. Also, was Martin Denny, I think did George bite had the 1317 01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:03,930 one that the hifi guys went nuts and you'd go into Hi Fi shops in 1318 01:28:03,930 --> 01:28:07,500 the 50s they were playing quiet village of George writes on that 1319 01:28:07,500 --> 01:28:10,920 word, it's because that thing would rattle your bottom end 1320 01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:18,180 like nothing. And that coupled with the Eclipse horns was was 1321 01:28:18,180 --> 01:28:23,160 an amazing thing that happened to progress. The Hi Fi industry. 1322 01:28:23,610 --> 01:28:26,580 Why didn't you go into that business? And we I mean, you 1323 01:28:26,580 --> 01:28:31,050 seem like you were set up to go into amps, guitar amps, real 1324 01:28:31,050 --> 01:28:36,900 amps, speakers, that whole that scene? And but you've grabbed it 1325 01:28:36,900 --> 01:28:38,880 and you've gravitated to microphones? 1326 01:28:39,210 --> 01:28:43,770 Yeah, it's it's a great question. And I don't know why 1327 01:28:43,770 --> 01:28:48,960 it just the way things happened in my life that that I got 1328 01:28:49,950 --> 01:28:55,710 thrusted into in the interest of building things and doing all 1329 01:28:55,710 --> 01:28:59,550 these things. I you know, I think the big change was was Joe 1330 01:28:59,550 --> 01:29:02,670 Walsh his friendship when we got together with the James Gang on 1331 01:29:02,670 --> 01:29:06,720 me, we were doing some things that nobody was doing in that 1332 01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:11,580 industry. And I just got carried away and you can't do it all. So 1333 01:29:11,610 --> 01:29:12,630 that's what happened. 1334 01:29:13,620 --> 01:29:16,200 So how did you get started with microphones? Because that's what 1335 01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:18,390 you're known for more than anything else right now. 1336 01:29:19,470 --> 01:29:23,550 Well, I got tired of being on the road. Oh, those years? Well, 1337 01:29:23,550 --> 01:29:23,790 there's 1338 01:29:23,790 --> 01:29:24,570 one reason 1339 01:29:25,830 --> 01:29:31,650 well, in 1988, he wants along in there. And the music scene also 1340 01:29:31,650 --> 01:29:35,940 changed. A lot of my big artists are not on the road. I didn't 1341 01:29:35,940 --> 01:29:41,010 know where music was going. Punk Rock came in. And they that was 1342 01:29:41,010 --> 01:29:46,920 a whole different scene that I didn't know much about. And so I 1343 01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:50,550 just I sold my whole rig I said, See you and I closed that 1344 01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:57,000 section of my life in my my career, sold the PAs off and 1345 01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:02,700 they kept work In fact, Townsend bought half of it took it back 1346 01:30:02,700 --> 01:30:07,650 to England. He was renting it out to young man's but anyway, I 1347 01:30:07,650 --> 01:30:10,680 came back home, I hadn't been on the ham radio and about 12 years 1348 01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:14,130 and I turned on my Collins kWm to and I'm going what in the 1349 01:30:14,130 --> 01:30:18,930 world happened to this? Because all I heard was this big rumble 1350 01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:25,320 Bumi bassy bottom end and go, What happened to the art Collins 1351 01:30:25,320 --> 01:30:32,430 articulate audio? And it was gone. Now what is this? So I 1352 01:30:32,970 --> 01:30:36,090 contact some of these stations. And yeah, I got my new Kenwood 1353 01:30:36,090 --> 01:30:39,930 and I got one of you. So what is that? Well, these are new rigs 1354 01:30:39,930 --> 01:30:42,090 made in Japan, they're great. Well, they might have been 1355 01:30:42,090 --> 01:30:46,050 great, but they didn't sound very great. They were not 1356 01:30:46,050 --> 01:30:51,570 articulate. Articulation is extremely important. And so what 1357 01:30:51,570 --> 01:30:55,860 we ended up hearing was stuff like this is like, Whoa, don't I 1358 01:30:55,860 --> 01:30:59,880 sound great? No, I can't understand what you're saying. 1359 01:31:00,570 --> 01:31:06,600 So I thought, hmm, we need to do something. So I did. We built 1360 01:31:06,780 --> 01:31:11,460 the first equalizer. It was a little box that I had taken the 1361 01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:16,650 bass and treble sections out of one of my mixing consoles, we 1362 01:31:16,650 --> 01:31:22,170 had built 1000s of them. bass and treble, and I little battery 1363 01:31:22,170 --> 01:31:26,370 operated box, you could plug your Kenwood mic or shoe or 1364 01:31:26,370 --> 01:31:29,970 whatever mic that just sounded awful. And you could equalize 1365 01:31:29,970 --> 01:31:32,820 it. And just like I just demonstrated it with a little 1366 01:31:32,820 --> 01:31:37,770 bit of equalization. It became very articulate, and 1367 01:31:37,770 --> 01:31:41,400 articulations important in ham radio, because we want to get 1368 01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:49,560 the spoken word across. So I, I built I did a thing for Qs T, 1369 01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:53,880 that's a magazine from the a double RL and it became I didn't 1370 01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:57,240 even think about where it was going. I wrote an article How to 1371 01:31:57,240 --> 01:32:01,770 build that equalizer. Well, it was a cover award for the July 1372 01:32:01,770 --> 01:32:05,970 1982 issue. And I didn't even know they had a cover award. And 1373 01:32:05,970 --> 01:32:09,780 we started seeing all kinds of people come to me Hey, build as 1374 01:32:09,780 --> 01:32:12,600 far as Bill, because I showed you how to build it, just go out 1375 01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:15,030 and buy your parts and build it. That's what ham radio operators 1376 01:32:15,030 --> 01:32:20,130 did. Okay. So then I called back a few workers and my plant we 1377 01:32:20,130 --> 01:32:24,420 started building, we built 1000s of those little equalizers, then 1378 01:32:24,420 --> 01:32:30,120 I got the idea long about oh, ad for, you know, we could build a 1379 01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:34,770 microphone and had that articulation in it. And so we 1380 01:32:34,770 --> 01:32:38,190 built we started building microphones for the ham radio 1381 01:32:38,190 --> 01:32:44,010 industry. And we have become the leading manufacturer worldwide 1382 01:32:44,010 --> 01:32:49,740 for headsets and microphones to that industry. And it's really 1383 01:32:49,770 --> 01:32:55,830 quite, quite lovely, because we've done so much for so many 1384 01:32:55,830 --> 01:33:01,350 groups. And we're talking groups like the group that just went to 1385 01:33:01,350 --> 01:33:07,710 Navassa. The group that's out right now, and these guys will, 1386 01:33:08,370 --> 01:33:11,730 this, they'll collect a lot of money, I will talking to half a 1387 01:33:11,730 --> 01:33:15,780 million dollars, we're not talking $10 Here, over a year to 1388 01:33:15,780 --> 01:33:18,510 these clubs and stuff, they'll get this money together and they 1389 01:33:18,510 --> 01:33:23,220 find some desolate island that nobody even lives on. And 1390 01:33:23,220 --> 01:33:26,760 they'll take all the gear out there fly helicopters, however 1391 01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:30,900 they can get there and talk to people around the world for two 1392 01:33:30,900 --> 01:33:37,470 weeks. And it gives ham radio operators a chance to talk to 1393 01:33:37,470 --> 01:33:41,100 somebody like that and get their confirmation card and all that 1394 01:33:41,100 --> 01:33:45,540 well. They use our microphones almost exclusively because of 1395 01:33:45,540 --> 01:33:49,170 that articulation value. They have to cut through all the 1396 01:33:49,170 --> 01:33:52,740 noise and the many, many stations on. And so that's how 1397 01:33:52,740 --> 01:33:56,190 we got that going. And it's been there and we just were 1398 01:33:56,190 --> 01:33:59,310 constantly just came up with a brand new headset that's just 1399 01:33:59,310 --> 01:34:07,470 released his last month. But about six, seven years ago, Joe 1400 01:34:07,470 --> 01:34:10,890 called me we had a home in California for number years just 1401 01:34:11,250 --> 01:34:16,590 out there kind of having fun. And here's a second home to just 1402 01:34:16,860 --> 01:34:21,630 get away from it. Spent a lot of time with Joe in those days. He 1403 01:34:21,630 --> 01:34:25,470 said, Hey, come on, talk to you. Come up here. So I go to his 1404 01:34:25,470 --> 01:34:28,860 home and studio city and we sat down his kitchen and he had an 1405 01:34:28,860 --> 01:34:33,780 SM 58. And he said, You gotta do something with this. We mean I 1406 01:34:33,780 --> 01:34:38,940 got to somewhere that he said, Well, he said it doesn't it 1407 01:34:38,940 --> 01:34:41,850 doesn't sound very good. I said well, yeah, but that's what you 1408 01:34:41,850 --> 01:34:45,990 used. Yeah, right. That's what we used when you and I were 1409 01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:50,730 doing this years ago, but he said now They've all moved off 1410 01:34:50,730 --> 01:34:55,560 to China. And I didn't know that. I said what do you mean, 1411 01:34:55,560 --> 01:35:01,500 he said this stuff is facsimiles of what But they did back in the 1412 01:35:01,500 --> 01:35:13,200 60s. And so I'll do something for you here. Okay, there is an 1413 01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:18,690 SM 58 I didn't do anything to the console, I just changed two 1414 01:35:18,690 --> 01:35:23,370 microphones. And it lost all of its articulation. It lost all of 1415 01:35:23,370 --> 01:35:27,210 its presence. It lost all of its glory. You're on an SMP eight. 1416 01:35:28,440 --> 01:35:30,300 This is an SM 58. I'm talking 1417 01:35:30,300 --> 01:35:32,370 this is one of the new Chinese versions. 1418 01:35:33,930 --> 01:35:37,320 Yes, well, it's this one's about, Oh, this one's about I 1419 01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:39,120 think six or seven years old. 1420 01:35:39,210 --> 01:35:42,210 Yeah, no, it doesn't sound and you sounded better before. 1421 01:35:43,710 --> 01:35:46,260 So then he said, You got decent hair. The other thing is the 1422 01:35:46,260 --> 01:35:50,100 pattern. If you're not right in front of it, forget it. Your 1423 01:35:50,100 --> 01:35:57,360 ear, you get real thin and all that I'll go back. And this is 1424 01:35:57,360 --> 01:36:06,300 our premium primo vocal mic, the PR 35. And again, trust me, I 1425 01:36:06,450 --> 01:36:10,380 did nothing to the console. I'm just unplugging and plugging a 1426 01:36:10,380 --> 01:36:14,880 microphone. And this is what Walsh and I came up with. He had 1427 01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:19,680 the idea of building a large diaphragm dynamic, and nobody's 1428 01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:23,310 done it short tried to put they failed. I know that for a fact, 1429 01:36:23,310 --> 01:36:28,980 because one of their engineers was a good friend of mine. And 1430 01:36:29,460 --> 01:36:32,760 we used to talk about a lot and oh gosh, 15 years ago, they 1431 01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:36,420 tried it and failed. And I never thought about it anymore. But 1432 01:36:37,050 --> 01:36:40,710 Joe wanted to do things. And so we started building all kinds of 1433 01:36:40,710 --> 01:36:45,780 crazy things. And I did it for Joe, I never looked beyond that. 1434 01:36:45,990 --> 01:36:49,950 Because I'm building microphones for ham radio, nobody's going to 1435 01:36:49,950 --> 01:36:55,200 come in and tilt the Sennheisers in the shores and all of that. 1436 01:36:55,230 --> 01:37:01,320 No, that's crazy. Well, I was wrong. We came up with products 1437 01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:03,480 that are just blowing these things away. Why are they 1438 01:37:03,480 --> 01:37:08,040 blowing them away? Because it's new technology that two crazy 1439 01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:13,980 ham radio operators come up with on a kitchen table. I mean, that 1440 01:37:13,980 --> 01:37:19,230 that's just I, I just think about it so much John, and it's, 1441 01:37:19,590 --> 01:37:23,280 again, it's a miracle that happened my life and Joe is a 1442 01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:26,490 big part of it. And every time I would come up building him 1443 01:37:26,490 --> 01:37:29,220 something, he'd go pass it around to his buddies and the 1444 01:37:29,220 --> 01:37:33,360 first thing you know, the these things became predominant in the 1445 01:37:33,390 --> 01:37:38,550 rehearsal halls out in California. And today, it's it's 1446 01:37:38,550 --> 01:37:44,010 amazing hundreds and hundreds and the Super Bowl, the IDM. And 1447 01:37:44,010 --> 01:37:47,370 Zell just saying that the national anthem on this very 1448 01:37:47,370 --> 01:37:53,490 microphone, the PR 35 and award shows and just on and on and on 1449 01:37:53,490 --> 01:37:58,290 and on. There's so many people Stevie Wonder, Charlie Daniels, 1450 01:37:58,740 --> 01:38:04,530 just this so many artists of today, because the microphone 1451 01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:09,480 works. Carrie Underwood's Underwood's work words about it, 1452 01:38:09,480 --> 01:38:13,020 as she said, This is my instrument. So no matter what 1453 01:38:13,020 --> 01:38:17,820 they bring on the stage, I don't care. This the PR 35 is her 1454 01:38:17,820 --> 01:38:21,510 instrument. And I never thought about that before. But it's 1455 01:38:21,510 --> 01:38:28,470 true. Microphone is an instrument. And it's it's just 1456 01:38:28,470 --> 01:38:32,520 being heralded by so many people. And we're very blessed 1457 01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:36,750 again by the fact that we were able to bring all this to being 1458 01:38:37,140 --> 01:38:42,510 one of the big factors in how good it sounds is not only the 1459 01:38:42,510 --> 01:38:47,160 sound of it, but the pattern. I'll move now I'm off 90 degrees 1460 01:38:47,160 --> 01:38:52,980 to the side, 90. No other dynamic microphone will do that. 1461 01:38:53,010 --> 01:38:55,980 No, you got to be sitting right in front of it. Now I'm right in 1462 01:38:55,980 --> 01:38:59,760 front of it. Now I'm moving at 90 degrees, I just went 180 1463 01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:03,180 degrees, you probably never heard a change in that audio. 1464 01:39:03,390 --> 01:39:06,210 Try that with any other microphone. And you know, the 1465 01:39:06,210 --> 01:39:10,620 minute you get away from it, you got to it's got to be on on your 1466 01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:16,140 right on your lips are it loses its value. And so then we 1467 01:39:16,140 --> 01:39:20,520 started building things for the broadcast industry. And as you 1468 01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:26,790 well know, Leo Laporte found it. On and on, there's so many, 1469 01:39:26,970 --> 01:39:31,110 we've got over 1000 broadcast stations, that's taken their 1470 01:39:31,110 --> 01:39:38,490 1966 designed our e 20s. That was the creation of another ham 1471 01:39:38,490 --> 01:39:44,100 radio friend of mine, Al Khan. And that is now being built in 1472 01:39:44,100 --> 01:39:49,350 China. And it's just so sad to see these guys, the young kids 1473 01:39:49,350 --> 01:39:53,700 that now own those big companies because the founders and the 1474 01:39:53,700 --> 01:39:58,530 dreamers are gone. They're just copying what grandpa did in 1475 01:39:58,530 --> 01:40:03,060 China. And that's is not good. There, there are all kinds of 1476 01:40:03,060 --> 01:40:07,260 new ways to do things and new materials. And that's what we 1477 01:40:07,260 --> 01:40:11,670 have done. And I took the ideas that Joe gave me. And here we 1478 01:40:11,670 --> 01:40:15,150 are. And we're very, very blessed again, that we can do 1479 01:40:15,150 --> 01:40:20,430 all this. And, and it's, it's, it's fun to be able to, to help 1480 01:40:20,460 --> 01:40:26,160 artist and broadcast guys and podcasters. Man, we have just 1481 01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:31,590 got just a ton of podcast guys using our PR 40. Because the PR 1482 01:40:31,590 --> 01:40:38,460 40 is it's become the God of the broadcasters. And again, it's a 1483 01:40:38,460 --> 01:40:42,090 large diaphragm. And Joe said to me one time, how are you going 1484 01:40:42,090 --> 01:40:45,330 to do this? Remember that big antenna? You had you had a huge 1485 01:40:45,330 --> 01:40:48,930 antenna and mute turned that around? Man, I didn't hear you. 1486 01:40:49,350 --> 01:40:53,280 So can't you do that to the microphone? And I get to think 1487 01:40:53,310 --> 01:40:58,440 about that. And I go back into my into my little office and 1488 01:40:58,650 --> 01:41:03,810 station and in ham radio station in Illinois. And I'm going yeah, 1489 01:41:03,810 --> 01:41:07,920 we can. It's all about phasing. You take two microphones and you 1490 01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:12,450 put them together, you got three dB plus, it's great. But if one 1491 01:41:12,450 --> 01:41:15,120 of them's out of phase, and you're talking about nothing, 1492 01:41:15,540 --> 01:41:21,300 nothing. Well, why can't you do that to the rear? We did. And 1493 01:41:21,300 --> 01:41:26,370 we're the only microphone. Dynamic microphone, that's all 1494 01:41:26,370 --> 01:41:32,370 we're doing is dynamics that has more than 40 dB of rejection, 1495 01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:37,980 that that's almost, that's almost unheard of. It's 1496 01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:42,360 impossible. Well, yeah, it's possible with any of our 1497 01:41:42,360 --> 01:41:45,570 microphones. And they all do it every one of them. Because Joe 1498 01:41:45,570 --> 01:41:48,780 gave me that idea. I never thought about applying antenna 1499 01:41:48,780 --> 01:41:53,190 theory to a microphone, but I did. And it's all about phasing. 1500 01:41:53,190 --> 01:41:56,550 And I got three and a half acres of antennas out here behind me. 1501 01:41:56,790 --> 01:42:02,070 I love antennas. I've loved them all my life. Since I was 15. 1502 01:42:02,070 --> 01:42:06,840 Man, I was in a freak for antennas. And here I've got 1503 01:42:06,840 --> 01:42:11,220 phased arrays on 75 meters, I got phased arrays on 40 meters, 1504 01:42:11,340 --> 01:42:15,210 these are all wire antennas out here. And when I flipped the 1505 01:42:15,210 --> 01:42:20,100 switch, it reverses them. And so I can cause my signal to go to 1506 01:42:20,220 --> 01:42:22,710 LA. All right, and I'm right here in the center of the 1507 01:42:22,710 --> 01:42:27,480 country. Now, right in the middle of where Kansas, 1508 01:42:27,510 --> 01:42:31,470 Arkansas, Missouri and Oklahoma meet. That's basically where I 1509 01:42:31,470 --> 01:42:35,490 am, I can throw my signal just by throwing a switch and cause 1510 01:42:35,490 --> 01:42:39,510 my light transmitter to be heard on the East Coast, or to be 1511 01:42:39,510 --> 01:42:46,590 heard on the West Coast. And you gain a lot of a lot of power, so 1512 01:42:46,590 --> 01:42:49,800 to speak, the ability for them to hear you or you to hear them 1513 01:42:50,100 --> 01:42:53,820 by just rebased reversing the phase. That's what I did in the 1514 01:42:53,820 --> 01:42:58,260 microphones. Nobody else is doing it, you're getting very 1515 01:42:58,260 --> 01:43:01,260 weak rear rejection from these microphones, they get a lot of 1516 01:43:01,260 --> 01:43:06,780 feedback and all that stage wash and noise coming off of a stage 1517 01:43:06,780 --> 01:43:11,430 with big amplifiers. That's why they love the Heil microphones 1518 01:43:11,430 --> 01:43:15,630 because they don't hear all that junk. And there again, it's ham 1519 01:43:15,630 --> 01:43:22,170 radio, coupled with learning to listen, and learning to listen 1520 01:43:22,170 --> 01:43:26,910 to those that want something. And you know, there's a lot of 1521 01:43:26,910 --> 01:43:29,730 that going on, too. You try to talk to an engineer today and 1522 01:43:29,910 --> 01:43:31,590 you don't want to talk to you. He's not going to change 1523 01:43:31,590 --> 01:43:35,190 anything he knows at all. He went to school for that. So I'm 1524 01:43:35,190 --> 01:43:39,120 not her I know more than you do. Well, I think the artists know 1525 01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:43,440 more than any of us as to what they need and want. And we are 1526 01:43:43,440 --> 01:43:48,870 so happy. I have a microphone Nepal Rogers asked me to build 1527 01:43:48,870 --> 01:43:53,010 him and I did I have a microphone HRD Daniels wanted me 1528 01:43:53,010 --> 01:43:57,300 to build for his his sound man wanted me to build for him. We 1529 01:43:57,300 --> 01:44:01,620 even call it the PR 31 BW for Bob workman. That's the number 1530 01:44:01,620 --> 01:44:05,520 on the microphone. Bob workman came up with this working with 1531 01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:09,150 Charlie Daniels. And did I take credit for it? Heck, no, I 1532 01:44:09,150 --> 01:44:13,590 didn't. It wasn't my idea. But he did take my PR 30 The big 1533 01:44:13,590 --> 01:44:18,630 diaphragm and reworked it a little bit. But we we named that 1534 01:44:18,630 --> 01:44:23,550 microphone after him on and on and on. And we listen intently 1535 01:44:23,700 --> 01:44:28,590 to our artists because they know and that that's I think the real 1536 01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:31,650 the real foundation Ohio sound. We've been doing that for 1537 01:44:31,650 --> 01:44:35,340 decades. And we're we're very thrilled about this and we're 1538 01:44:35,850 --> 01:44:39,330 we're coming up on our 50th year John, I can't believe it but we 1539 01:44:39,330 --> 01:44:45,690 are and it still continues. My wife now owns the company and I 1540 01:44:45,690 --> 01:44:49,020 just stay here in the Ozarks and she's a huge convinced 1541 01:44:49,290 --> 01:44:54,810 have you. Have you thought about modernizing the condenser mic 1542 01:44:54,810 --> 01:44:58,950 which seems to me to be mostly based on a 1947 design still. 1543 01:44:59,010 --> 01:45:03,060 No I don't Unlike condensers, I never have like condensers. And 1544 01:45:03,060 --> 01:45:07,350 I've proven we don't need condensers. And when I say that 1545 01:45:07,350 --> 01:45:10,590 a lot of people say, yeah, right, this guy's crazy until 1546 01:45:11,220 --> 01:45:16,740 they spend time with our PR 30s. It is an amazing microphone. 1547 01:45:16,740 --> 01:45:20,580 It's a large diaphragm dynamic. What's wrong with condensers? 1548 01:45:20,850 --> 01:45:25,560 They're too sensitive, they pick up the whole room, they have no 1549 01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:30,000 good rear rejection. So you can't use any of that where you 1550 01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:35,880 really need rejection. Every single solitary condenser has 1551 01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:43,590 this rant, raspy top end, every one of them $5,000 to $2. They 1552 01:45:43,590 --> 01:45:47,700 all have this. If you're listening, that listen. And that 1553 01:45:47,700 --> 01:45:51,210 bugs me. Why do we have to put up with that, then you got to 1554 01:45:51,210 --> 01:45:54,630 have this stupid phantom power? So I said no. And it was Joe and 1555 01:45:54,630 --> 01:45:59,490 I, we both agreed, you know what? I think we can do the same 1556 01:45:59,490 --> 01:46:03,240 job or better with a dynamic. And we will I 1557 01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:06,180 will say the PR 40. silence If you'd listened to one, it sounds 1558 01:46:06,180 --> 01:46:10,380 like a best of one of the best condenser mics that you can 1559 01:46:10,380 --> 01:46:14,550 imagine. What about Lavell ears? There's a little sub segment of 1560 01:46:14,550 --> 01:46:18,510 the market that's needed badly for many of those are 1561 01:46:18,510 --> 01:46:19,260 condensers. 1562 01:46:20,310 --> 01:46:23,940 I know that. And I have never touched that. And boy, do I get 1563 01:46:23,940 --> 01:46:26,970 so many people asking me they said, Wow, look what you did to 1564 01:46:26,970 --> 01:46:30,510 that dynamic? Well, you'll never be able to do that was a 1565 01:46:30,510 --> 01:46:35,040 dynamic, I don't believe but I need to I need to start looking 1566 01:46:35,040 --> 01:46:41,370 into that. Because maybe we can. I just been so busy with all 1567 01:46:41,370 --> 01:46:46,410 this other stuff. And I need to I need to start focusing on some 1568 01:46:46,410 --> 01:46:50,100 of that. The last couple of years have been headlong into a 1569 01:46:50,100 --> 01:46:53,400 couple of huge ham radio project with the new headset, the new 1570 01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:57,780 Pete pro seven. So I'm pretty much finished. And we're on the 1571 01:46:57,780 --> 01:47:01,860 market with it. And it's getting great reviews. So I might have 1572 01:47:01,860 --> 01:47:05,190 to look into that. That might be my next project, John, because I 1573 01:47:05,190 --> 01:47:08,370 do know the dynamics are a real scourge. 1574 01:47:09,030 --> 01:47:11,730 Yeah, I would be very interested in what you come up with for 1575 01:47:11,730 --> 01:47:14,520 that because I think level errors, which are used more and 1576 01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:18,240 more and more by even amateur videographers, because you can't 1577 01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:21,390 really if you're out in the field and you got you're using a 1578 01:47:21,390 --> 01:47:27,270 Canon five d to take videos with somebody you gotta miked up, you 1579 01:47:27,270 --> 01:47:29,760 have to have miked up, you can't, you can hold a mic in 1580 01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,400 front of them, then it's just kind of clunky, but they're 1581 01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:34,830 miked up and they can. And people when they're miked up, 1582 01:47:34,830 --> 01:47:39,630 they also feel more at ease when they're discussing something as 1583 01:47:39,630 --> 01:47:42,150 opposed to having a mic thrust into their face. 1584 01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:48,540 Right. So but as I'm saying the dynamics of those dials the Not 1585 01:47:48,570 --> 01:47:54,420 that that dynamic range, the transient response of the things 1586 01:47:54,420 --> 01:47:57,840 are just a scourge. Yeah, no, you need to fix it that's needs 1587 01:47:57,870 --> 01:48:00,810 to that's what needs to be addressed. And it seemed like 1588 01:48:00,810 --> 01:48:05,550 nobody wants to address those issues of dynamics, the dynamic 1589 01:48:05,550 --> 01:48:10,260 range, the all of that of the lavalieres. And that's what we 1590 01:48:10,260 --> 01:48:13,830 need to maybe look at next. Who knows where we go? 1591 01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:18,630 Yeah, that'd be great. So what, what is your best selling mic 1592 01:48:18,630 --> 01:48:20,760 right now. And by the way, I'm, 1593 01:48:20,790 --> 01:48:27,360 that's hard to say it's probably the PR 40 and the PR 35. They 1594 01:48:27,390 --> 01:48:31,590 they'd be running a race together. And but right behind 1595 01:48:31,590 --> 01:48:36,660 it is to pr 30. I still maintain for me, the 30 is it, it's just 1596 01:48:36,660 --> 01:48:40,830 a gorgeous microphone, it is it is the condenser replacement. 1597 01:48:41,370 --> 01:48:45,150 And I have a lot of broadcasters using a PR 30 It doesn't have 1598 01:48:45,150 --> 01:48:50,310 quite the low end i I rolled the last octave of the PR 40 off, I 1599 01:48:50,310 --> 01:48:54,480 left the mid range articulation, the top end the same, but it's 1600 01:48:54,480 --> 01:48:59,550 not quite as broad, which is, is really needed in a lot of 1601 01:48:59,550 --> 01:49:05,730 applications of recording and so on. But it it also sells well. 1602 01:49:05,730 --> 01:49:10,680 So, but there's no question the 40 and the 35 are in the horse 1603 01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:13,170 race as to who's first? Well, I 1604 01:49:13,170 --> 01:49:17,670 use a 30 and a 40. I like the 40 the best and that's the one I 1605 01:49:17,670 --> 01:49:22,680 recommend people buy. Yeah, especially podcasts. It's not as 1606 01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:24,930 though you're gonna get your full frequency response over 1607 01:49:24,930 --> 01:49:27,750 something like Skype, but you get at least if you're giving 1608 01:49:27,750 --> 01:49:31,020 Skype the best possible signal, it usually comes out. Okay, on 1609 01:49:31,020 --> 01:49:31,800 the other side. 1610 01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:36,690 Well, if people John, it's all about what we talked about in 1611 01:49:36,690 --> 01:49:41,130 the beginning. It's the harmonics. A lot of people don't 1612 01:49:41,130 --> 01:49:46,500 quite understand that but even though you're rolling your 1613 01:49:46,650 --> 01:49:50,280 equipment off, in this case, Skype or the mixers or whatever, 1614 01:49:50,910 --> 01:49:56,700 even though you roll it off, it may be what 45 5060 cycles. 1615 01:49:57,000 --> 01:50:01,950 There's something about this harmonic is shoe, that when you 1616 01:50:01,950 --> 01:50:06,630 speak in that microphone, there are some rich harmonic showing 1617 01:50:06,630 --> 01:50:15,450 up at 60 and 90, or 60 and 80. This depends on your voice. But 1618 01:50:15,450 --> 01:50:19,590 you get some harmonic issues from that wide response to the 1619 01:50:19,590 --> 01:50:25,140 PR 40. And that's one of the things about it that it just 1620 01:50:25,140 --> 01:50:29,940 makes it sound stunning. And even though you're not using the 1621 01:50:29,940 --> 01:50:36,840 whole range, directly, you are harmonically and that's why I, I 1622 01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:41,730 always for broadcast podcasts and so on, I also recommend the 1623 01:50:41,730 --> 01:50:44,340 40. There's there's just nothing that will touch it. 1624 01:50:45,420 --> 01:50:49,260 Do you ever worry that there's a component one you because you, 1625 01:50:49,380 --> 01:50:52,830 you source your components from all over the place, you're not, 1626 01:50:52,860 --> 01:50:58,170 you know, building the circuit necessarily with an old, single, 1627 01:50:58,170 --> 01:51:03,330 you know, like resistors, and a soldering gun. You so you source 1628 01:51:03,330 --> 01:51:06,360 from here and there, including your diaphragms and all the 1629 01:51:06,360 --> 01:51:09,000 electronics that go into the case and everything else. So you 1630 01:51:09,000 --> 01:51:13,950 ever worried or think about one component being so critical that 1631 01:51:13,950 --> 01:51:15,960 you don't even know it's critical? And then you get 1632 01:51:16,170 --> 01:51:19,140 something changes? And all of a sudden now that microphone 1633 01:51:19,140 --> 01:51:22,860 sounds? Does that sound what it should sound like? Is that like 1634 01:51:22,860 --> 01:51:25,200 I would be worried sick about that personally? 1635 01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:32,850 No, no. And the reason is that we don't receive products built, 1636 01:51:33,180 --> 01:51:37,740 we receive components from various countries from the UK, 1637 01:51:37,950 --> 01:51:43,890 Malaysia, South America, Japan, Taiwan, these all get shipped. 1638 01:51:43,890 --> 01:51:47,670 And I design them right here, where I'm sitting in my what I 1639 01:51:47,670 --> 01:51:51,720 call my station lab is my ham radio station in my lab, this is 1640 01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:57,600 where I do it all. And I just this morning received another 1641 01:51:57,900 --> 01:52:03,510 piece for this new product we're doing in ham radio, they, they 1642 01:52:03,810 --> 01:52:08,460 really have made an improvement on it. And I of course, I 1643 01:52:08,640 --> 01:52:12,660 accepted it. And now that I will go into this new product instead 1644 01:52:12,660 --> 01:52:20,430 of one that I did a couple of weeks ago. And I am the guy I 1645 01:52:20,970 --> 01:52:26,070 ixnay it or I say yeah, then I send it over to our plant, our 1646 01:52:26,070 --> 01:52:30,750 production manager and our product manager. They all look 1647 01:52:30,750 --> 01:52:33,690 at it. They listen to it, they too are trying they've been 1648 01:52:33,690 --> 01:52:38,280 doing this for years. Our service manager, she is amazing. 1649 01:52:38,280 --> 01:52:42,000 She'd been with me for 20 plus years. We all agree yes, this is 1650 01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:45,510 going to be a better component than those components come to 1651 01:52:45,510 --> 01:52:48,930 our Illinois plant. All of the little things that connectors 1652 01:52:48,930 --> 01:52:52,770 this the resistors the wire, all of the different things. And 1653 01:52:52,770 --> 01:52:57,000 then of course, the diaphragms, the support the shock mount for 1654 01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:59,820 the diaphragms because a lot of our microphones have shock 1655 01:52:59,820 --> 01:53:06,570 mounts internal in the microphones. And so no, if a if 1656 01:53:06,570 --> 01:53:13,320 one of our suppliers let us down and they do not supply the parts 1657 01:53:13,530 --> 01:53:19,560 at our at our level, then we'll go somewhere else. We'll find 1658 01:53:19,590 --> 01:53:24,360 other manufacturers but we've been doing this whole golly, 1659 01:53:24,390 --> 01:53:30,690 it's it was about 1985 I started discovering you can't do it in 1660 01:53:30,690 --> 01:53:34,980 America anymore. It's so sad, John, you you just can't find 1661 01:53:34,980 --> 01:53:40,170 anybody to build parts in America. They might be able to 1662 01:53:40,170 --> 01:53:43,680 do it but at ridiculous cost. And of course you're not going 1663 01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:49,110 to sell your products for that. So I have a parch broker she is 1664 01:53:49,110 --> 01:53:54,180 an amazing lady. She travels the world for the past 30 years 1665 01:53:54,180 --> 01:53:58,920 speaks seven languages. And all she does is buy electronic 1666 01:53:58,920 --> 01:54:02,820 components for different manufacturers. We're very happy 1667 01:54:02,820 --> 01:54:08,700 that we're one of them since 1985. And she's also she has a 1668 01:54:08,700 --> 01:54:13,920 level she knows what we want. So there's a wall up there that has 1669 01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:18,330 to be broken if anything's going to change Well it never will 1670 01:54:18,330 --> 01:54:19,590 because we won't let it 1671 01:54:21,210 --> 01:54:26,730 I see Do you how many models do you have right now Mike's 1672 01:54:29,460 --> 01:54:30,840 talking about like these capsules 1673 01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:35,430 are probably about 30 I mean that's that's a ham radio and 1674 01:54:35,430 --> 01:54:39,660 all of it together. Something Do you have you each one was all 1675 01:54:39,660 --> 01:54:44,430 these components come in to our plant and we assemble them? We 1676 01:54:44,430 --> 01:54:48,330 test them three times, three different people three different 1677 01:54:48,330 --> 01:54:51,930 times and three different aspects and then they're boxed 1678 01:54:51,930 --> 01:54:56,580 and shipped out of their. Every microphone the last test we have 1679 01:54:56,580 --> 01:55:02,490 some studio JBL monitors Crown amplifier and a mixer. In the 1680 01:55:02,490 --> 01:55:09,150 last test, there's three people in that plant that really know 1681 01:55:09,180 --> 01:55:13,170 how to listen. And we actually listen, even though the scopes 1682 01:55:13,170 --> 01:55:17,640 and on the second run when in the second testing stage and all 1683 01:55:17,640 --> 01:55:24,480 of that's there. I don't trust it, there's still something 1684 01:55:24,480 --> 01:55:28,710 about listening and know it's rare. If it looks good on 1685 01:55:28,710 --> 01:55:32,730 scopes, and generators and all of the analytical gear, fine, 1686 01:55:32,730 --> 01:55:36,000 it's going to be okay. But once in a while, there's just some 1687 01:55:36,000 --> 01:55:40,770 little cork, it just doesn't sound right. And these guys and 1688 01:55:40,770 --> 01:55:45,360 gals know when they listen to it. And that last third test 1689 01:55:45,630 --> 01:55:50,130 through the JBL studio monitors, yes, this is good, or 1690 01:55:50,910 --> 01:55:53,430 something's weird. That one doesn't make it. 1691 01:55:54,900 --> 01:55:58,560 Are there any mics out there that you respect other than the 1692 01:55:58,920 --> 01:55:59,640 your brand? 1693 01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:03,570 I don't, I don't listen to a lot of the others, to be honest. So 1694 01:56:03,570 --> 01:56:07,200 I don't know what I used to respect. No, because they're all 1695 01:56:07,650 --> 01:56:11,370 facsimiles or what they, what they used to be and what I grew 1696 01:56:11,370 --> 01:56:16,590 up with, and their founders are gone, and they're there. They're 1697 01:56:16,590 --> 01:56:20,670 not very good. And that's why we're doing what we're doing. 1698 01:56:20,700 --> 01:56:26,100 How long does it quality, Mike, last? Is it appropriate to buy 1699 01:56:26,100 --> 01:56:28,050 one on the US market ever? 1700 01:56:28,140 --> 01:56:32,430 Well, you never know what somebody's done to one. I just 1701 01:56:32,430 --> 01:56:36,900 got an email this morning from some guy, he bought a microphone 1702 01:56:36,900 --> 01:56:42,300 from eBay. Somebody took that cartridge out of it and stuck 1703 01:56:42,300 --> 01:56:45,960 something else in it and sold it with as our microphone and he 1704 01:56:45,960 --> 01:56:48,450 took a picture of it and go like, why would anyone 1705 01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:51,000 you feel sorry for you? Because they blew it out? Maybe they'd 1706 01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:51,510 do that? 1707 01:56:52,620 --> 01:56:55,470 Yeah, you never know what well are, they're going to take our 1708 01:56:55,470 --> 01:56:57,810 element and put it in something else they got you never know 1709 01:56:57,810 --> 01:57:01,860 what they're doing. But I have some microphones, some of the 1710 01:57:01,860 --> 01:57:07,440 very first ones we've built back in the early 80s. They're great, 1711 01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:11,310 I still use them, they're fine. As long as you haven't done 1712 01:57:11,310 --> 01:57:16,290 something weird to them, or spilt water on them or that kind 1713 01:57:16,290 --> 01:57:17,010 of stuff. 1714 01:57:18,390 --> 01:57:22,470 Why should people never blow into a microphone? And Is that 1715 01:57:22,470 --> 01:57:23,280 still true? 1716 01:57:23,730 --> 01:57:30,450 Of course it is. Because it when you do that you cause that 1717 01:57:30,450 --> 01:57:37,110 diaphragm to exceed its travel design. The magnets and the 1718 01:57:37,110 --> 01:57:43,800 voice coil, have a specific tolerance of how far it can go. 1719 01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:48,270 It's just like a piston in a car. That piston can only go so 1720 01:57:48,270 --> 01:57:52,860 far down. And if it goes too far, you just destroyed the 1721 01:57:52,860 --> 01:57:56,970 block. Same thing with microphones. If you blow in it, 1722 01:57:56,970 --> 01:58:01,500 I see guys pound their hands on top of one. Man, it's the death 1723 01:58:01,500 --> 01:58:06,390 of them. Because it might not cause it not to work just now. 1724 01:58:06,390 --> 01:58:10,380 But it's going to cause a problem down the road where that 1725 01:58:10,380 --> 01:58:15,720 diaphragm isn't as tight as it was because the trend and then 1726 01:58:15,720 --> 01:58:20,550 the transient response in the dynamic range has harmed because 1727 01:58:20,550 --> 01:58:25,920 that that force of air coming down on that is much greater 1728 01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:30,960 than what it was designed to do. And we take a lot of pride and 1729 01:58:30,960 --> 01:58:36,870 all that. In fact, we are the only absolute only microphone 1730 01:58:37,620 --> 01:58:43,050 that the young rap artists now they can cup it. That's 1731 01:58:43,050 --> 01:58:48,960 something that just oh here a few years ago, oh my God. Don't 1732 01:58:48,960 --> 01:58:53,820 do that. Because when you put your hand around a microphone, I 1733 01:58:53,820 --> 01:58:55,860 can't do it. It isn't because I won't do it. But I can do 1734 01:58:55,860 --> 01:59:00,330 something like this. It sounds like this. Because you're you're 1735 01:59:00,330 --> 01:59:07,080 causing the element to be put into a tuned position. It's in a 1736 01:59:07,290 --> 01:59:12,480 a cavity. And when you cut a microphone, that's what happens. 1737 01:59:12,690 --> 01:59:15,030 I did that outside. But let me show you something. You can't 1738 01:59:15,030 --> 01:59:22,350 see this. But I am now cupping to PR 35 There's absolutely no 1739 01:59:22,470 --> 01:59:27,840 change. I'll take my hand off the microphone. And we created 1740 01:59:27,870 --> 01:59:36,630 this microphone so that you can't detune the element. It's 1741 01:59:36,630 --> 01:59:41,430 very important. Because if you don't have that if you did it to 1742 01:59:41,790 --> 01:59:45,630 anything assure us and if anything, it's going to sound 1743 01:59:45,630 --> 01:59:49,080 like this. It's like a tunnel that it's in because that's what 1744 01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:54,780 happens to it. When we cut our microphone. It doesn't change it 1745 01:59:54,810 --> 01:59:59,550 because we designed it so you can't detune it. That's become 1746 01:59:59,550 --> 02:00:02,700 very A very popular in the art history today. 1747 02:00:02,820 --> 02:00:06,780 What is very What about dropping the mic people drop them on 1748 02:00:06,780 --> 02:00:09,900 purpose. They dropped by accident they have him at the 1749 02:00:09,900 --> 02:00:12,090 end of a mic stand and they throw him to the ground. 1750 02:00:12,330 --> 02:00:17,310 Well, you probably will see no problem on it. And many, many 1751 02:00:17,310 --> 02:00:20,640 times but again, you might and that can happen to any 1752 02:00:20,640 --> 02:00:28,260 microphone. Because you've got a the diaphragm sits over the top 1753 02:00:28,260 --> 02:00:32,370 of the voice coil, the voice coils got a magnet up inside it 1754 02:00:32,880 --> 02:00:38,010 a magnet of a Linko. What we do is we take the we take the 1755 02:00:38,040 --> 02:00:43,980 magnet structure when we build it. And we mix Boren and iron 1756 02:00:43,980 --> 02:00:47,400 with it. This is something I don't think anybody else is 1757 02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:53,940 doing at this level out. And when we mix Boren and iron, it 1758 02:00:53,940 --> 02:00:57,570 makes that magnet 10 times stronger. That's why high, all 1759 02:00:57,570 --> 02:01:02,220 microphones have this incredible transient response. And what 1760 02:01:02,280 --> 02:01:07,050 that means that when you you're singing or whatever, and it goes 1761 02:01:07,050 --> 02:01:10,500 to the bottom, it comes back fast. It's got a great fast 1762 02:01:10,500 --> 02:01:15,120 attack, snappy, that's all because of the bar that all of 1763 02:01:15,120 --> 02:01:20,400 that iron mixture. Well, if you drop that, you might it might 1764 02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:24,840 break. I mean, it's it's probably unlikely and I have a 1765 02:01:24,870 --> 02:01:31,380 lot of microphones guys drop and they'll bend the screen on top 1766 02:01:31,410 --> 02:01:35,550 or something but microphones still work. So it's not a huge 1767 02:01:35,580 --> 02:01:41,730 issue, but it is you shouldn't just be him do that. But we just 1768 02:01:41,730 --> 02:01:46,650 like any other manufacturer microphones. Ours probably will, 1769 02:01:46,830 --> 02:01:49,530 will last just the same. 1770 02:01:50,220 --> 02:01:52,200 What's your thoughts on ribbon mics? 1771 02:01:52,500 --> 02:01:58,590 Well, that to me, they're they're too sensitive in 1772 02:01:58,590 --> 02:02:05,910 handling. You just you can't use them on tour. They're so 1773 02:02:05,910 --> 02:02:10,590 sensitive because they've got a piece of aluminum stretched 1774 02:02:10,590 --> 02:02:17,520 across a mag ribbon. And yeah, and that ribbon can be destroyed 1775 02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:21,270 just by dropping it are moving and harder. Just carrying it 1776 02:02:21,270 --> 02:02:24,210 around. Yeah, either very frank, I've wondered 1777 02:02:24,210 --> 02:02:28,020 myself, how do they ship a ribbon mic without damaging it? 1778 02:02:28,050 --> 02:02:32,910 Yeah. Well, that's a that's a good question. But there again, 1779 02:02:32,910 --> 02:02:38,460 I I got one of the old original. I got two of them sitting over 1780 02:02:38,460 --> 02:02:44,400 RCA is back into 3044. I believe. Oh, man. Yeah, that 1781 02:02:44,850 --> 02:02:48,870 those things were amazing. But they weigh about 30 pounds are 1782 02:02:48,870 --> 02:02:54,840 huge. The magnet inside. And you you had the mic stands or half 1783 02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:58,590 inch pipe thread. You couldn't dare put them on the mic stands 1784 02:02:58,650 --> 02:03:02,850 today. But oh, they sound great. Got a big bottom end. But you 1785 02:03:02,850 --> 02:03:06,720 know what? The PR 40 sits right beside him and sounds very 1786 02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:11,280 close. So I don't think we need all of that. And again, a lot of 1787 02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:15,810 this is a fad. It's an ego, oh, I got this. I got this condenser 1788 02:03:15,810 --> 02:03:20,640 ear right. I only look at one thing. And they have all lost 1789 02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:24,420 it. In fact, one of the big companies maybe the biggest used 1790 02:03:24,420 --> 02:03:29,250 to have in their logo. Performance. They took that word 1791 02:03:29,250 --> 02:03:33,900 out. They do not have the word performance anymore. We do we 1792 02:03:33,900 --> 02:03:38,790 love to talk about our performance. Because our 1793 02:03:38,790 --> 02:03:42,300 microphones are performers as some of the many, many hundreds 1794 02:03:42,300 --> 02:03:47,790 if not 1000s of top artists that are using our microphones 1795 02:03:47,790 --> 02:03:50,520 because of the performance. That's why they use a 1796 02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:55,140 microphone. I found a mic or use a microphone if it doesn't sound 1797 02:03:55,140 --> 02:03:56,730 good or has poor performance. 1798 02:03:56,849 --> 02:04:02,759 Yeah, I agree. It's a big deal. I want to thank you for this 1799 02:04:02,759 --> 02:04:09,419 chat. We've talked for about an hour and you're definitely one 1800 02:04:09,419 --> 02:04:11,099 of the most interesting people out there. I think you're kind 1801 02:04:11,099 --> 02:04:17,819 of underrated. Whatever that means. But But these mic the 1802 02:04:17,819 --> 02:04:21,599 microphone revolution that you've done with these with 1803 02:04:21,599 --> 02:04:26,819 these dynamic mics is pretty outrageous. And I and I think 1804 02:04:26,819 --> 02:04:31,379 maybe you kind of sensed this too is that I'm glad you did it. 1805 02:04:31,379 --> 02:04:34,439 But why did it have to be you it seems as though this is just 1806 02:04:34,439 --> 02:04:38,699 should have happened anyway. And which is I think what Walsh was 1807 02:04:38,699 --> 02:04:41,429 always, you know, just complaining Why isn't why do I 1808 02:04:41,429 --> 02:04:45,149 have to? Why did why did what is Bob? Hi, I'll have to make 1809 02:04:45,179 --> 02:04:49,109 design a new mic because nobody else is doing it. And 1810 02:04:49,349 --> 02:04:53,999 through there's a simple, simple answer to that. And I got the 1811 02:04:53,999 --> 02:04:57,449 answer. Many times from the artists that I run around with 1812 02:04:57,449 --> 02:05:04,139 these days where the old Any company that listens and does 1813 02:05:04,169 --> 02:05:09,479 something about it? Many, many times, some of my friends who 1814 02:05:09,479 --> 02:05:13,289 are an artist would ask the other microphone companies they 1815 02:05:13,289 --> 02:05:16,649 do this do that, oh, well, we have this model. And it'll do 1816 02:05:16,649 --> 02:05:20,999 that in their mirror. They don't listen, they they have this ego. 1817 02:05:21,719 --> 02:05:24,869 And they walk around with their nose in the air if it rained, 1818 02:05:24,869 --> 02:05:30,659 and probably Duran. They it's, it's really sad, because who 1819 02:05:30,659 --> 02:05:37,859 knows better? How a microphone should behave? Then the artist, 1820 02:05:38,429 --> 02:05:41,609 yeah, the person who has to dance it, that's my whole deal. 1821 02:05:41,849 --> 02:05:44,489 And it doesn't make any difference if that artist is a 1822 02:05:44,489 --> 02:05:50,189 broadcaster, a podcaster. Musician, or just somebody that 1823 02:05:50,189 --> 02:05:53,399 uses a microphone and a ham radio station, they all have 1824 02:05:53,399 --> 02:05:58,319 their thoughts and desires. And we have always been that way. 1825 02:05:58,619 --> 02:06:02,489 All of the people that have worked with me, for me alongside 1826 02:06:02,489 --> 02:06:08,939 me, we really take it seriously. When somebody calls us and says 1827 02:06:08,939 --> 02:06:15,569 something and we do something about it. Bob workman probably a 1828 02:06:15,569 --> 02:06:18,629 great example. I mean, workman was he'd been with Charlie 1829 02:06:18,629 --> 02:06:22,169 Daniels forever. He's got 32 microphones of ours on the 1830 02:06:22,169 --> 02:06:24,419 stage. And he came to me one day and says, Hey, I don't want to 1831 02:06:24,419 --> 02:06:27,089 offend you or anything, man. We're good friends. And I said, 1832 02:06:27,089 --> 02:06:30,899 What's up? He says that pr 30? What's in the bottom half of 1833 02:06:30,899 --> 02:06:35,459 that? And I say, well, nothing. Is it acoustically? There 1834 02:06:35,459 --> 02:06:40,109 nothing there? I didn't know. So what? Can I cut it in half? And 1835 02:06:40,109 --> 02:06:43,349 just use the top end? Is that does that sound the same as it? 1836 02:06:43,349 --> 02:06:46,589 Yes, there's a plate in there doesn't sound any different. So 1837 02:06:46,589 --> 02:06:51,509 we did. And we came up with a PR 31 BW for Bob Workman, and the 1838 02:06:51,509 --> 02:06:54,149 whole story and his pictures on the back of the box. And you 1839 02:06:55,169 --> 02:06:59,189 there's one just one example goes Joe's the biggest one where 1840 02:06:59,519 --> 02:07:03,029 all the rest, we talked about that. But we listen to these 1841 02:07:03,029 --> 02:07:07,469 people. And I don't care who it is. I mean, it can be an artist 1842 02:07:07,469 --> 02:07:11,909 with a million selling album, it can be a broadcaster in his 1843 02:07:11,909 --> 02:07:17,429 little station in sitting in the wilds of Iowa, it could be a 1844 02:07:17,429 --> 02:07:22,769 podcaster in his basement. It doesn't make any difference of 1845 02:07:22,769 --> 02:07:26,999 their level. It's a user of high on microphones. And if they talk 1846 02:07:26,999 --> 02:07:30,809 to me, and they have an idea, we're gonna listen to them. And 1847 02:07:30,809 --> 02:07:34,829 you know, what, if we think it's viable and better, we do it. 1848 02:07:35,010 --> 02:07:39,720 How did you get the microphone under David Letterman set? I'm 1849 02:07:39,720 --> 02:07:42,270 sorry, you get the microphone on the David Letterman set. 1850 02:07:43,680 --> 02:07:46,650 Well, I learned about this. It's kind of an interesting thing, 1851 02:07:46,650 --> 02:07:52,710 because I have watched lately, but they would switch it around. 1852 02:07:52,770 --> 02:07:57,390 Here's the deal. One, you know, they always had Johnny Carson's 1853 02:07:57,390 --> 02:08:06,120 RCA 77 on it. And it was on Dave's desk. And one day the 1854 02:08:06,120 --> 02:08:11,070 crew came in. And that microphone was gone. And 1855 02:08:11,070 --> 02:08:16,290 Michael, who is one of the audio engineers, for the show, told me 1856 02:08:16,290 --> 02:08:19,230 this because I work with those guys. They use some of our mics 1857 02:08:19,230 --> 02:08:22,050 for the band and stuff. And he's gone some back some years now 1858 02:08:22,050 --> 02:08:26,010 when that happened. Because I asked him, Well, how did it get 1859 02:08:26,010 --> 02:08:29,790 there? He said, Hey, we were ready to tape. What are we gonna 1860 02:08:29,790 --> 02:08:34,950 do? He said I had a PR 40. And I just stuck it up there. And it's 1861 02:08:34,950 --> 02:08:37,950 kind of interesting. It's that sit there for years. And then 1862 02:08:37,950 --> 02:08:41,130 all of a sudden, I see other microphones every once in a 1863 02:08:41,130 --> 02:08:45,660 while I'll see a Neumann and and then all of a sudden, the PR 40 1864 02:08:45,660 --> 02:08:51,210 is back. But that's because somebody stole the RCA. And 1865 02:08:51,210 --> 02:08:55,920 that's that's the story I got from Michael and I can verify 1866 02:08:55,920 --> 02:09:00,270 that time and time again, give me his phone number. But it It's 1867 02:09:00,300 --> 02:09:04,350 a strange deal. But they you know that microphone to Dahlia 1868 02:09:04,350 --> 02:09:06,360 has to be pointing in the wrong direction. 1869 02:09:07,620 --> 02:09:10,830 Oh, yeah, well, none of those microphones, they're all stage 1870 02:09:10,830 --> 02:09:13,170 props. If you look closely, they're using Lavell ears 1871 02:09:13,200 --> 02:09:16,140 because they're running around and all of that, that that mic 1872 02:09:16,140 --> 02:09:18,960 now when it when Carson was there, that was different story. 1873 02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:24,060 They had an overhead boom, and that microphone, but since 1874 02:09:24,060 --> 02:09:26,640 lavalieres came in why that's what they've been using, but 1875 02:09:26,970 --> 02:09:30,810 it's just a profit. We're very, very happy about the fact that a 1876 02:09:30,810 --> 02:09:34,200 br 40 has been on and off that desk a number of times. That's 1877 02:09:34,200 --> 02:09:34,680 great. 1878 02:09:36,030 --> 02:09:37,410 So Bob, thanks for being with me. 1879 02:09:37,650 --> 02:09:41,460 While I'm so happy to be here and I appreciate you taking the 1880 02:09:41,460 --> 02:09:44,190 time to talk about some of our history. 1881 02:09:46,650 --> 02:09:49,290 That was Bob Heil and I hope you enjoyed that interview along 1882 02:09:49,290 --> 02:09:52,020 with the one earlier with John Sculley and remind you that we 1883 02:09:52,020 --> 02:09:56,520 do have a show on Thursday live 9am pacific time as usual 1884 02:09:56,580 --> 02:10:00,000 dvorak.org/in A for your continued support. I hope you 1885 02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:02,430 You enjoy this interview. We don't do these that often, but 1886 02:10:02,430 --> 02:10:06,660 we do them once a year, maybe, maybe twice a year. You're 1887 02:10:06,660 --> 02:10:08,910 lucky. A lot of people always want to interviews. They always 1888 02:10:08,910 --> 02:10:12,270 say, oh, let's do some interviews. And now, you know, 1889 02:10:12,420 --> 02:10:14,730 you know, what do we do? This is how we do them if we're going to 1890 02:10:14,730 --> 02:10:18,180 do them at all. And I want to thank you for listening to the 1891 02:10:18,180 --> 02:10:22,680 show, and I hope you'll be here on Thursday and continuing your 1892 02:10:22,680 --> 02:10:26,340 support. I'm John C. Dvorak from Northern Silicon Valley and 1893 02:10:26,640 --> 02:10:31,290 absentia Adam curry, from Europe. Adios MoPhO 1894 02:10:32,070 --> 02:10:40,200 devora.org/n A check it out. The ice caps are melting. The polar 1895 02:10:40,200 --> 02:10:45,630 bears are dying. This is just amazing. It's amazing. That's 1896 02:10:45,630 --> 02:10:48,300 amazing. Harris. It's amazing. That's amazing. This night has 1897 02:10:48,300 --> 02:10:49,350 been amazing.