podcasting 2.0 for October 30 2020 This is episode nine and
here come the pioneers kind of like the Pilgrims a couple of
ships sailing across the big podcast ocean everybody is is
he's wrong holiday monetarily podcasting? 2.0 You know, I
didn't even have a cool intro name for you today. Gosh darn
it, ladies and gentlemen, Dave Jones, everybody.
Nice. Okay, because like if this was like Good Morning Vietnam.
Yeah. I'm like that little. I'm like that little, you know, like
mealy mouthed guy, the corporate guy that nobody likes. No, no,
no, no, no, no. You told her it doesn't matter. Because we're
all going to end up by the way this week is going we're all
going to end up on substack. Anyway, charging $5. You know,
I'm very excited about Glenn Greenwald leaving the intercept.
And I am too. And I think I've gotten a lot of emails already
from people saying, Hey, man, you really got to help Glenn out
because, you know, his audio sucks. He's gonna be doing a lot
more podcasting. Like, I don't know if I can help him with
everything, but we can certainly help him with some things. And
that's substack thing though. If you think about it. I love I
love numbers. It's I think the default option is $50 a year.
That's the that's the default subscription level they have on
sub stack. So he has to move. He's probably making half a
million dollars. Where was making half a million dollars.
We have to move 10,000 people to pay. I think he's got that
audience.
I think he's got that easy. i He got me yesterday, within five
minutes. I
mean, I subscribe. I pay for it. I did the $50 option I did same
for Matt Taibbi, these are two of the best journalists. I know.
I love those guys.
That's what that's what I posted this morning. I'm like, if if I
hope no more journalists keep going to substack because I'm
gonna go broke. I mean, I got it. You feel like you got to
support these guys. I mean, as soon as they say, Hey, I'm
getting screwed. And I gotta go independent to keep my you know,
to keep my integrity. Oh, yeah, you're getting my five bucks. I
mean, that's automatic. Yeah. And then I'll cut off whatever
other stupid discussion I don't even know about anymore. But you
know, and slot it over there.
If only we had a way to manage that better. Don't have to
think. Think about that. Dave, how's your week been man?
Busy. It's been it's been busy.
And I should point out that both Dave and I have actual jobs like
I think everybody else who hangs out in podcast index and is
developing or on the podcast index dot social, demanding
jobs. So I'm, honestly I'm amazed that we're all still kind
of standing here. Especially you I know. I know that your week
started off with a non it it gig.
Yeah, that that's it's it's it's funny with it with it. You don't
you don't ever know what's like, that's part of you don't know
what's coming. It just throw everything throws you
curveballs. And so you always have to be, you know, you've got
your regular it, which is just day to day operations and all
these kinds of things. Yeah. And then at any moment, you know, it
doesn't have to be just a crash. It could just be like, Oh, crap,
I gotta deal with this. You get we get one of those every two,
three days, you know? So
usually, for me, it's like, computer crash. That's, that's a
disaster when I have a computer issue. Oh, yeah. Here's a
question for you. Whenever I reboot my Surface Pro six, which
I use for the studio exclusively, even if it's an
update, I think it'll come back up it'll blue screen and it'll
tell me the error is I RQL is not less or equal than and then
it tells me it's it's gathering some important information with
a little percentage counter and then it reboots and then it's
fine.
That's that sounds like standard Windows behavior to
me. Oh, that's that's what it's supposed to be. Okay. Yeah, it's
a Microsoft product. It wasn't nice little smiley face at least
didn't go to blue screen with the smiley and a QR code is very
hip.
That's insulting. That's insulting to me. Don't give me a
smiley face when you Is it okay. It's a surface, pro or surface
go
down. This is Surface Pro six.
Okay, so it's a Surface Pro. It's a self. It is a it is a
self contained device. You can't add anything to it. You can't
put cards in it. You can't put RAM In it, you can't swap hard
drives, there's nothing you can do on the inside of this device.
It's built by Microsoft. And the hardware, and the software is
built by Microsoft. And they're sold together all as a as a
package. So, and somehow, it blue screens every time you boot
it. Yeah, and our q not less than or equal, that is a drug
that is a driver that is 99% of the time and driver issue. So
Microsoft has a self contained unit that they sold to you that
they cannot write same drivers for.
Well, to be fair, I have a lot of crap hanging off of this
machine. You know, I got two monitors hanging off of it.
external hard drive and audio interface. Yeah,
you're you're you're triggering my my rant session here. Because
all right, if you go back, and you know, I do, I don't a much
call it full spectrum it work from as a day as my day job.
It's it's everything from you know, server, server stuff,
software development, help the end user Help Desk. I mean,
there's nothing that is off limits in my job, if it's
plugged into a wall. I touch it, right. And so as part of the end
user, stuff, like if you go back 1010 years ago, and we end you
plug in dual monitors, triple monitors, or whatever that stuff
was rocks. It worked. It worked every single time it did one
play,
or once we brought in HDMI got tricky. or USB C or USB. That's
the real problem. Yeah. Oh, it's
all USBC and and Thunderbolt and DisplayPort. Right windows,
which are all kind of flavors of the same thing. Yeah. When they
brought that stuff in, multi monitor went berserk. Yeah. And
you can't at like, I mean, you can't plug into monitors
anymore, and be assured that they're gonna work. Yeah. And
like, we took a step backwards here. That's why, you know, I
always ran on this, like with self driving cars, and those
customers like, Yeah, show me. Yeah, sure. We can even plug
into monitors.
I'm still waiting for my refrigerator to order the milk
automatically. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we can't plug into monitors and make it work. And
you can't get your card Bluetooth to connect every time
that you're going to have the car drive. For me. That is some
big time BS.
So this kind of leads me into a topic for today. Because a lot
of these things, I think are developed in vacuums. Yeah, we
have testers and there's all kinds of stuff. But it's so I
mean, so hard to create something, certainly if it's
software based, and understand all the use cases and how people
are going to do stuff with your software. And this became so
apparent to me this week, it was a big aha moment. Tools. Yeah.
So the he, I'll give you the high level assessment. And then
let me start with that. What I'm feeling is, we've had a decade
of lack of innovation in podcasting, for a number of
reasons. The main one being that this was usually driven by the
companies that create RSS feeds, seeing as they have the most
invested in creating additional functionality that they can
offer to their customers, their podcasters. The chicken in the
egg was that the app developers, and let's just say, Apple,
because that's really, that's really what this has been about,
because they were also not just a popular app to use for
podcast, but they were also maintaining the index, the
default index for most. And now later, Spotify has been added to
that. It's been a question of, well, we want to add this, and
will you guys get on board with it? And then of course, you
know, you have all kinds of what we've seen go into very fast,
very fast tempo with with a namespace of podcast index, or
at least on the GitHub, never got anywhere because it would
just be a back and forth and a meeting and the end, the most
egregious part, although not anyone's fault, per se, is the
users were completely left out of the conversation. Yeah, sure.
The people in the conversation also have podcasts. But here I
am, and this was it was very frustrating. I'm a co founder of
the project. We we've put this together to combat a whole bunch
of issues. To move podcasting forward, we come to an
agreement, not even agreement, but we're working on chapters
and chapters is already supported. The whole reason that
was it, who was already supporting chapters out of the
gate was that?
Well, the apps on the App side, yeah,
hyper capture. So hyper, and I think podcasts
are maybe podcast attic, head to head has got it in beta. And
then Martin was working on it in pot,
right. So this is working, I mean, the work is being done.
And now it's the kind of the reverse. So everyone's sitting
around testing with one feed, that has some that has a chapter
tag in there with a JSON file, linked by a URL. And that JSON
file has the has the chapter markers in it. And I'm like,
holy crap, this is so cool. I want to use this. Because when I
use this, this is my thinking, when I use this, I can say, on
my show, or I have several of them where a lot of people
listen a lot, I think, in aggregate, maybe a million
people on a weekly basis, I say, oh, man, I've got this cool new
feature, check it out. If your app doesn't have it, then check
it out on hyper cat, your pod friend or podcast addict, which
I think in my mind, would make everybody happy. Because they're
developing apps, they want the apps to be used, they want
people to use the apps because of the art that is created with
that, you know, the the way it's laid out, that's per individual
developer, that's very different. And there's a new
feature. I am a what people think it's very rare case, I
don't really think so. But I do not have a hosting company. I
know because of the size of the amount of traffic that we push,
we have our own little CDN, which void zero maintains up
there and north of the Netherlands and it's through
ova. Ah, so we've built our own little CDN. And I create my
feeds with the freedom controller, which you built. And
we were at this point where I'm like, Oh, my God, this, we can
really push this forward. Because the way I look at the
situation, as a user, and I'm a podcaster, with an audience is
if I'm using this, and people like it, and there's apps for
it, it would be a much easier call for a hosting company to
retool, I understand what goes into it. I have my non developer
voice lots of times, but I I really do understand what goes
into creating this stuff, certainly at scale. And if you
have if you're, you know, a company that's like most are
just struggling to get by just trying to make it all work for
everybody. Yeah, that would drive that adoption with some
assuredness that, you know that that it would, it would be used,
because if I'm using it, other podcasters, look at what I'm
doing. And they'll say, oh, wow, this is great. So I thought that
I was in the perfect position until I realized, well,
actually, here's how it went. We did our show on last Friday. And
I said, Dave, I know what you're working on. You got a whole
bunch of crap. Don't worry about the feed. Because the previous
two episodes, you were hand coding the feed and changing
things. Which takes a long time. And I foolishly said to myself,
I used to do this shit. Don't worry about it. Give me this
give me a text editor. I'll take care of this. Yeah, yeah. Until
I then realize how much the data in a feed has changed. I mean,
back in the day, we we didn't have to escape characters. And
we weren't even thinking about that. And then Oh, my God,
there's like, the the margin for error was so. So narrow, I mean,
you know, you screw up one thing in the feed. Now I have
experienced with screwing up my feed a lot of it. And it's very,
very painful. When I screw up a feed, I will be answering emails
and having people tweet at me for days, if not weeks,
sometimes. And to this day. Oh, where are the images in the
podcast? 2.0 Feed where the images the older no agenda
images. How come there's two episode 1286? Well, I can tell
you feed shit ain't easy. But here I am, arguably a pioneer,
ready to do stuff. And everyone's going like, Well,
yeah. And I mean, literally, that's the noise. I got back and
I was there. As you could tell
this story guy on the screen and I didn't even know how to read.
I was
flipping out. I'm like, I desperately want to party I want
to play in this playground. And so
you were flipping out. You call he called me and you're like,
you're like What the hell am I supposed to do? I don't know.
It's like I want to use chapters is sitting right there. And I
got asked the can do it. And I, like there's no tool. How do I
create a chapter? Yeah,
how do I create a chapter file?
How do I get it into the feed once I've created?
Exactly. So this chicken in the egg is stopping right now. And I
will say, Martin, pod pod friend, Martin. Thank you. Thank
you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I'm gonna be
transparent as we always are. We offered to pay Martin to do
this. Because I realized it's not a not a, it's not
necessarily benefiting his own development, to create something
so that I can just manage the feed and put in the cool
elements that y'all are working on. And he refused. He said, No,
no, no, no, no, there'll be none of that. But that's that's how
desperate I was to get a tool just just to be able to do it.
And he went on a marathon 48 hour hackathon and came to us
did his and he did and came up with the RSS builder. And I am,
I am deeply, deeply grateful, really, so grateful for that.
Because now and I'm expecting, you know, with every new element
that we all agree works, that everyone works together, I think
the code is up or will be up, I think you already put it up. So
we can add these little elements. And I can help test
because I can I can push and make these features surface for
a large enough audience, I think that it matters, then the and
the audience that I have is very, very willing to experiment
etcetera. So now
that that's important, too, because it's, it's, it's much
easier to have the only way you could test one of the ways you
could have one feed with a ton of users. And you could test
that. Or you could have a whole bunch of feeds with a few users.
And that's chaos. It's one feed that you can use as a tests and
as a sandbox feed to test with that has potentially, you know,
maybe on the sandbox feed 20,000 users or more, that's gold.
Yes. And I think by and this is recommendation we got from a
mutual acquaintance, to actually Mark No, so my, my, the feed
right now is just sandbox. And it's a separate feed. And we're
doing that for a very specific reason. And actually gonna go
back Say what you will about Dave Weiner. But when we were
booting up podcasting 16 years ago, these features would be
implemented into my feed creation software on the spot
almost, or the next day. And of course, that was because he had
a very different model, he was creating a single piece of
software, a tool that spit out an RSS feed admit did many other
things. But it was spit out the RSS feed. So every everything we
we were talking about or want to try, we pretty much implemented
real world right away. And I really hope all developers,
especially our app, guys understand how valuable it is to
get the real users using your stuff in a controlled
environment to start with, but go live as soon as possible.
Now, I'm going to toot my own horn, I am the perfect guy for
you. Because I am fearless. I will go and I will break Yes, I
will break my feet not on purpose. But if it comes to
that, I'll break my feet. And for sure, guaranteed, as Dave
Jones is my witness, I will break your software. And I and I
succeeded right away, I immediately broke hyper capture.
And, and I'm happy and I'm like, Oh, this is so good. And I hope
that everyone sees how valuable this is because you're thinking,
Well, you know, going to who knew that I was going to create
20 Chapter marks in my chapter file and bring up webpages that
apparently are loading simultaneously. Now, I have an
iPhone seven, for a number of reasons security, mainly, I
don't want a lot of the new features and the new sensors.
But it also may be a good benchmark just to have shit
work. It can work on an iPhone seven, you're not going to have
a problem with a 12. And the same goes for Android. There's
there's all kinds of limitations to me, I think. And then even
though the stuff was out, and actually kind of released the
hyper catcher stuff. We all sat down and went hey, you know
that's actually kind of a security issue if Adam can just
have shit loading up on everybody's on everybody's
phone. Just have some random page. That could be a real
problem. tracking, tracking. I mean, there are definitely web
pages that will crash your iPhone. You know, we've all seen
it. Yeah, call Apple right away. Yeah, here's the number you
know, it takes over your whole your whole browser. You can't do
anything can get out of it. So I'm super excited that we can
move forward now in this manner. And so this show today, I'm
going to run it through the RSS builder, I'm going to add
chapters to it. And I already have feedback because now we get
into the next part, which is very interesting is, so now I
have a tool for the RSS feed. And I'm, I haven't I don't care
what I build my RSS feed with. But now at least I have a tool
that is flexible enough. So when a new a new feature comes out,
something we all want to support, and we're putting into
the apps that the hosting companies will look at and
decide if they want to use we can do it right away. But yeah,
here's the first problem. So I now have one authoring tool, and
I'm very pleased with it hyper capture, super pleased to have
has to be more chapters you're talking about, yeah, four
chapters. Exactly, yeah. And this brings me to my next point,
and then I'll shut up. And I was trying to make this point, and I
don't think it came across very well. But in today's world, and
the best example of this is Microsoft Word. When someone
sends you a Word document, you open it up in Word, and you read
it. And when you create a Word document, you open up Word, and
you create it in Word, and then you check it and you view it in
Word, and it has a couple different modes. So you can you
know, look at it different ways and and run some bug checking on
it, which is called a spell checker in in my world, and then
you can send it off. Never has anyone complete, I'm sure people
have thought of it. But never has anyone completed the full
circle of well, editing my podcast, how it's going to look
what information is displayed in a podcast app. It would be an
I'm not asking for this. But just think of the power. If we
could do that in the app itself. Because that was the experience
I had with hyper capture. Hyper capture allowed me to do one
thing, which blew me away, is I could create the chapters while
listening to the show in the app. That is incredible. I mean,
it's just It's massive. Now I know that David created it
because he wants community chapters, which believe me, I
want, because I'm already thinking, wow, this adds 30
minutes to my production time, you know, finding these
chapters, I want a community chapter system where the
producers of my shows can go ahead and do that. And it will
grow over time. And of course, you need to an admin interface
to approve that. But that just keep that in mind. It is
incredibly powerful to be able to do things to your podcast, in
the app itself as a as a as a creator, as a producer.
You're talking about wiziwig for podcast apps,
in a way, in a way I mean so well, where it's really
prevalent, where really where it really works well is in the A's
with the chapters, but I can see another use case. And the more I
because someone showed up on the index, I forgot who it was on
the mastodon and said, Hey, I was thinking of putting together
a little podcast app that looks at where you are by geolocation
and then pulls up podcasts that are geo tagged in your area. And
now, of course no one has that at this point. It's not an
official tag. But I can certainly see the benefit of it.
And if there was a world where I could add a location tag from
the app itself, you know, my phone actually has all that
stuff built in GPS and everything. I mean, these are
just super easy things to think of. Now, that doesn't make it
any easier for a hosting company. You know, how does that
get in all problems that need to be solved? I'm just putting it
out there as a revolutionary idea. Certainly when it comes to
community based features, it comments the same thing. You
know, podcasting is getting its ass kicked its ass kicked by
real time chats on YouTube. Now, once you go back, you watch the
video again, you see the chat scroll by that's that's cool
stuff. And we have very, we actually have zero audience
interaction pieces, mainly. And this is to finalize, because we
haven't been able to create this entire loop. And I feel really
good at the end of this week, because now I know that we are
in. We are formidable. We've got we've got great app developers
working within the framework of a namespace coming up with these
features. They'll be able to test it Good testbed with me and
then real world with me, which will bring other people who want
to do this. And we'll all make decisions if we want other
people to use this tool. But you know, all it takes is one
hosting company to say, Okay, we're going to change it and,
you know, at boys be ready. Because yeah, because you know,
stuff is gonna start coming in. So long story short, let's
remember that users in this process, and I am here, I am
dedicated I am a part of the development team, call me QA,
call me Q, call me whatever you want. But I am going to break
your software, I'm going to do crazy shit that will drive you
nuts. And we're going to have great, great features and
functionality because of it.
Yeah, well, what you're talking about? I mean, what you're
describing is the is actually what you need to have a
comprehensive test setup for any kind of software. Yeah, because
as developers go, I'm sure that everybody you know, I'm sure
every other developer is like me, as I hear you describe,
okay, what I need is, is, is a piece of software that does
this, and this and this. And as I'm hearing it, I'm envisioning
the pieces as they go together in order just to make it
function. But just simply functioning is not what makes
great software. No, it is what makes great software is is
functioning it has to function at what it's supposed to do. And
it's also got to do it in a way that is enjoyable, and easy. And
all of these intangibles that you can't,
you can't you can't dream up. Yeah, you can't dream
up code this, this that's enjoyable, or delightful, or
whatever. Well, yes.
Now there's, you can 10 print Hello, 20. Go to 10. Okay,
that's just always gets me
to hell go to hell,
exactly.
Like you, you can't. So what you need is you need a you needed,
you need the developer sitting there thinking those things. But
then you also need a non developer who's trying to just
simply use it. And who is breaking it? And who's telling
you, hey, this thing is really awkward, or yes, technically it
worked. I created this chapters file. But I tried to actually
load it in the app, and it took 10 minutes to load, right isn't
like, you have to have both sides of that coin, because it's
the back and forth between the two that actually make great
software. So I think like, that's, that's what I hear. And
I know that that's a deficiency of me, because you can't, not
only can you not properly debug and debug your own software, I
mean, thoroughly debug it, you can't, you also can't look at it
with non developer eyes. Sure. It's just you can't you can't do
that. Because your, your mind won't let you because you're
thinking, make it work, make it work, find the find the thing
that's causing it not to work. And so, like there's times when,
like if people notice that go dark for a little while, and
don't respond to things. It's usually because I'm having to,
you know, take care of take care of something and and I'm trying
to just get my mind away from podcast index and away from all
that stuff. Sure. And, and go, you know, clear my mind so that
I can come back to it, and then look at it with fresh eyes. And
that it doesn't always work. But you have to try. Because that's
the only way you get good software.
Now what I was super pleased by and which told me a lot is the I
feel incredible speed at which hosting companies have
implemented the lock tag. That went very fast. Now I know
there's not a lot of logic behind it. Although just having
a toggle that says yes, lock my feed. There's logic there. I get
it. That went now how fast like three to two, three weeks, and
we have six or seven different companies supporting it.
Yeah, it's it was it was a low hanging fruit.
I think it's I think it's all low hanging fruit personally, I
think it's all just sitting there waiting to be captured and
well, well, Kevin from posted on the message on the other day in
response to something. I forgot what he was responding to, but
he actually printed out what he said because he said at the end
of the day podcast creators want to see their photo and A's DS
talking about the host the host tags. Yeah, the contributor
contributing or whatever we're calling it. At the end of the
day podcast creators want See their photo and guests photos
within the apps while episodes are being played? That's really
interesting. I said, I think that's the use case, we need to
design for closed platforms like Apple already have this, we need
an open spec that offers something similar, nothing more
and nothing less. felt that was perfect. That that is exactly
what is going on right now. Because I don't know that. Maybe
we see it a little clearly, I'm being presumptuous here. Maybe
we don't. But perhaps we see things because we're not in the
hosting business or the app business. Sure. Sure, sure. And
it's possible that what we're seeing is maybe something that
has not really sunk in yet. But if you get back to the what were
the clips we listened to last week, the the silo companies
like Spotify, and Amazon and these people that are trying to
bring things exclusive. This, especially Spotify, they are
trying to build a full complete stack end to end user experience
that is completely within their system. Yes.
And this This is, this is exactly what I wanted to wear. I
wanted to steer it because we are in a race in a way. However,
I do want to make note. And I completely believe Kevin. When
Apple was about to launch this feature, they were making a big
deal about it internally. I have no, honestly no one from Apple
podcasts has spoken to me since we started this project. But
they used to email me and said, Yeah, we're launching this
hosting. So can you please give us pictures? And I don't see it
in the app. I have the Apple app. Where is it? Where's my
picture? Where's this? Fantastic. I don't understand
the functionality. I gave it to them. It may show up if you
search somewhere. I mean, I can I can look but where is it? How
is it being used as my question?
I see that. That's a great point. Because, as you you
mentioned, I think you mentioned on the agenda not too long ago
about your mentioned the the Mises Institute, which I think
you pronounced at Mises.
Yes. Thank you. Mises Institute. Yes, yes, yes, we gotcha. But
they're here,
but they're here in Auburn, Auburn, Alabama, which is about
two hours away from me. And I remember, I used to listen to a
ton of their material. And one of the I remember this one
lecture, where it may have been Tom woods, actually. Now, I
don't think it was him. But anyway, he said, the lecture
said, you know, a, he's talking about antitrust, and he said, a
small player, a small business person can can out maneuver a
large business any day of the week. And they were growing,
because you can always the small business guy can always, you
know, he can, he can trim his expenses, he can, he can eat one
fewer meals a day. I mean, like, there's a lot that he or she can
do in order to free up the resources in order to make some
sort of move and make it very quickly. Whereas a large company
that you know, you, you have to have a certain amount of
revenues or manage cash flow, it takes a long time to steer that
boat in another direction. So I think that base that a small
focus group of developers doing this, this namespace were
much more and much more nimble. Yeah,
we can move like we can move on this host guests stuff much
faster. Okay, in a big cup.
So let me let's, now we're, we're doing chapters at the same
time, I'm not stopping on chapters, because there's still
work to be done, particularly how we create chapters. Let's
talk about the host and guest. So this is the Apple app. It's
updated. Its its newest one. I know that my photos in there
Jhansi Dvorak photos in there. It's in their system internally.
So I know that I know that that's all right. And I searched
for Adam curry in the Apple podcast app. Now it does that no
point anywhere in the interface does it bring up my picture his
picture? It shows me a number of podcasts. And when I look at
this, I think, Oh, this is really good. Because it first
has no agenda. I'm in that mo facts. I mean, that Joe Rogan
experience I mean that twice. So I click on Joe Rogan experience,
and I just get a list of Joe Rogan experience podcasts with
his most recent episode, why now this is what I'd want. Why
doesn't it show me the episodes that I'm on? Because it seems
like a no brainer. You know, they got no fucking users. No
one is really using this. They're not listening to people.
Adam Carolla. I've been on that show one It's Hotep. Jesus, I've
been on that show, Tom woods, I'm seeing all of it. Even the
buzz cast, there we go. Let me click on that. It should say,
here's the episode with Adam curry, but it doesn't. It just
takes you to broadcast, it just takes you to bus casts. So they
they either I didn't even you don't even have to use the tag,
you could just search. I mean, you could, you could, in theory,
just search for a name and show notes and bring it up to because
I know Netflix and l podcast, which was on once two and a
half, three years ago. I know that they're not producing a
tag. I know that Daniel have hosts and guests in there. So we
have a we have a communication breakdown. So why don't we as
the Nimble developers, and sorry, Martin, I know you're not
in the US, but sorry, for all intents and purposes, you now
are an American entrepreneur, because America is actually
small business. It's not big businesses. Yeah, we got some
notable ones. And it's the small businesses that make up the core
of this country. See, it is the backbone. So let's work on hosts
and guests tags. And let's make it kick ass. And let's make our
apps kick ass. Because when I when I'm searching for Adam
curry, I want to see my face appear. And then I want to see
what shows I'm on and I want it to list the actual shows that
I'm on. You can split it up any way you want it. But just I
mean, what a waste. What a waste.
I want to and you want to link to Wikipedia. Yeah.
And I already see some of that insights, you know, podcast
insights, or some, you know, low level AI stuff, basically skip
logic people are doing like, Oh, it's fine to Twitter feed, let's
find a Wikipedia entry. That's fine. And how about this as a
crazy thought? Why wouldn't it be possible to add to that? So
if there's a if there's a host and a guest entry? Are we going
to recreate all that work? I mean, should guests and hosts
maybe have I'm just throwing shit out there? Should guests
and hosts maybe not have a way to have a format that can be
used by all podcasts they appear on no matter who creates it?
What do you mean? You mean, like in the mean, like in the tag
itself by the
index? Why Why? Why wouldn't I'm just throwing stuff out, David.
And just, to me, it's like, okay, I'm the guest. And all I
provide all I've ever been asked for is my picture. And I don't I
actually don't want my Wikipedia link. Can I please give a bio
that I like that I can link to? Can I please put in the most
recent project. So this is going to be still how do I change my
picture? Yeah. Now you're now you're hearing a user talking?
Yeah, well, that's exactly what you're supposed to hear. I mean,
like, that's the hold on my dogs freaking out.
Your dog agrees with me, man that the dog is going Yes. Yes.
drover. Anyway, do you want it you want to go talk to him? We
can wait. We can wait for anyone to talk to him. And while Dave
is doing that, let me see if I can find developers, developers
developers, because that is got to be I guess I don't have that
in the archive anywhere. But we always have the Google
developers, developers, developers,
developers, developers, developers. Yeah, I
mean, it's not. It's not like I'm gonna stop the recording or
anything. Dave, hold on. This is a classic for those of you who
are too young to have ever heard it.
developers, developers, developers, developers,
developers, developers.
Bomber bomber, yeah. It's a classic. I'm putting that in the
show notes first. It does not stop either. It just keeps on
going beautiful. I don't think I've ever seen that full thing.
Five minutes. Oh, the rant is five minutes. And he's sweating
like a hog. And it's fantastic. I remember
that. I remember that. Or whatever.
It's in there. It's in there somewhere.
Like that. I think chat to me chapters is almost fully baked
already. I mean, like, there's just maybe a couple of well,
interesting.
Okay, here's a feedback on my end. So. So I have a tool to
have the hyper capture the regular app, which I can create.
The chapters with. My options are comment and URL. So we know
that it wasn't a good idea to just pop up whatever URL was put
in there. So now I either I either need some logic that
picks up an icon or the first picture or something to display,
or I need a way to also get a picture in there.
Yeah, we'll see that's in the spec. So it may just be that
David has hasn't put it in there. And maybe there's a way
to, or maybe he's looking, treating the URL, I'm not sure
what he's doing, he'll have to clarify that because, like, it's
no chapter. So in a Chapter, you can specify the chapter spec has
Start Time, which will be the seconds into the data onto the
audio. And then it has either a URL of a web of the Assam web
URL or an image URL. So it can have, you can have either or
both. So you can put in, you know, an image URL instead of on
a webpage, it'll just load the image. But I'm not sure if he's,
I'm not sure what his interface was exposing that.
No, I only have one, one URL space to put in there. Okay,
well ask him about that, then. But let me just give you the
next set of problems. Okay. So I saw I want it to look good. So I
want to have it now. There are many times I can get an image
and just copy and paste that image. But some What if I have
an image from my phone that I want to put in? I'm just
thinking as a user? Now, I gotta find a place to host that image?
Yeah, like if you're if you're wanting to upload something
yourself, yeah.
Okay. So these are, these are tools. And I think this is where
the hosting guys come in. How are you? How are your users
going to create the content for these tags?
See that, to me. To me, that's, that's the perfect role for
them.
It is the perfect, it is the perfect role. Because
they're already hosts. They're already hosting things like
transcripts, and feeds and everything.
I mean, like I mean, another thing is, I'm just going to keep
hammering on this transcripts. Okay. How do I do it? I mean,
I've gotten some answers. And the answers are, well, you do it
through this, and you run it through that, and then you put
it on a server and you put the URL here.
That's not something grandma can do.
It's not something I can do. I mean, I can. But I'm so so. So
someone's supporting transcripts right now. Is that Is there
support for that?
Yeah. Buzzsprout. Yeah, Buzz press supporting it?
And do they have a tool for creating the order? They just
create the transcripts on the fly? Or they
don't know how they do it in their UI. Okay, that's, I've
created an account the other day to see if I could do it, and
then never followed through on it. But I don't know. I don't
know how they're exposing it. I know. I think they read. I think
they redirect you. Man, I don't want to say because I don't know
it. Like, it seems like here's the problem with transcripts.
With with the chain of getting them into your feed, is that you
have you have potentially, they cost money. First of all, it
costs money on almost every service to do if you're going to
do more than just a little bit like if you have a three hour
show, it's going to cost you I don't know at least three bucks
to three bucks to create a transcript for that show. By the
time you run it through their their engine, and it spits out
usually some sort of JSON file. It's time encoded, and it's like
every single word in the transcript has a timecode. So
it's a fairly sizable file, I don't know, four or five
megabytes, then you have to take that and convert it into
something that is more usable by an app, something that's not
just like your huge monster of time coded single words. So
there are hurdles as to transcript to like, it makes
sense that the chain is complicated. Now, I don't know
how Buzzsprout does that. Now if if we're doing it, let's just
say I'm gonna run mine through AWS transcribe service. And it's
going to spit me out a crazy JSON file. And then I gotta
figure out some way to get that into a standard podcast
namespace transcript format.
So this is also why things never get done. Because everyone says,
Well, I'm ready to receive it. And then the hoster say, I'm
ready to put it in. And in the middle. You've got users stuck
saying, Okay, how do I do this?
Yeah, well, the perfect, I think, I think the transcripts
is probably the worst case scenario of that. And I don't
want, like I said, But Buzzsprout may have a much
better solution to this than that. I don't know. I just don't
know.
I see they they support chapters? Because I put one of
my feeds in there. Maybe it's a pass through, okay. Yeah, well,
I didn't have a lock tag on it. So that's the good news.
Maybe it's having an upgrade, I will upgrade my feed, to see
maybe I get transcripts in there. But maybe it's premium
feature, could be a premium feature. But just looking at the
so here, we have transcripts, or Nina chapters, and they have a,
this is actually quite usable. They have ADD chapter markers.
So So I hit that. And I can add, well, the start times have a
little player, so that all works automatically. That's great. I'd
love to use this, then it has a chapter title and a URL. So it
does not have an option for a URL and a picture. That's
interesting.
So that's, so that's hyper catcher and both both have that
same sort of interface. And I wonder if they're just because
because in the spec, there is an image property and an A in an in
a URL property. So they, Tom and Kevin and David, they, they need
to tell us how to use that.
Well, we're Yeah, I mean, to me as as a as, let's call it my
hosting provider in this case, it would make sense to me that I
can either grab an image from somewhere and just drop it in
there, and it uploads to my area of my server space on
Buzzsprout. And adjust does everything else for me? Yeah. So
and I understand the that. I mean, so there's two use cases.
One is the one that I don't like, which is and that's just
me, personally, I want people to listen to my show, and I don't
want you jumping around and I don't want to see something
that's Oh, well, I'm not going to listen to this bit. I'm going
to that bit. Which means I feel you that's just my art, you
know, it's like I would rather people listen to it in linear
fashion. I also don't like people listening at one and a
half times speed, you know, that's just me. However, I would
like to use this as eye candy, the way it's being implemented
in hyper capture. And I think pod friend, is your you're
listening, you get to a certain point and up pops, whoa, here's
a cool thing. Here's an image and there's a URL, I can tap and
go through. So we talked about artwork on our show. And we're
talking about artwork that we did not choose for the album
art, I want to rotate that. And here's this, this is the perfect
use case for me. Here's this one. Here's that one. And that's
not meant for you to tap through to anything. It's also not meant
to jump to it per se, I don't mind how if people want to jump
around. I mean, that's it is what it is.
Well, that's something that evolved into the chapter spec
this past week is we've been? Oh gosh, it's hard to even remember
what has happened in this in the week. Because I think early on,
I made contact with the developer of a program called
chapters app. And it's a Mac program that will create mp3
chapters in your mp3 file. And, but his his software will also
at the same time, spit out a JSON Chapter format. And so I
started looking at his JSON chatra format. And it was so
close to what we had. I mean, like the properties were named
the same. In a lot of instances. I mean, it the format was just
almost identical. So I made contact with him. Frederick
Buurman, I think is how you pronounce his last name. And I
made contact with him said, Hey, your your format is so close to
ours, this would be huge when if we just combined, what if we
merge these two formats together? If it's not two in a
way, that's not too painful for you, not too painful for us. And
we each have to just make a couple of tweaks. And we have
one single format that your your users can go ahead and spit out
a chapters file that will work in the podcast namespace. He
said, Yeah, that sounds great. Exactly. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah.
So it was perfect synergy. So we pulled that we pulled that
together this past week. And he's cool with it. We're good
with it. Very little change for anybody to absorb. But the one
thing that came in there was was an extra property optional
property called Table of Contents or TOC, which is
something he was using, but we didn't have it and it was a
great idea. So that you can choose to have a silent chapter.
So you have a chapter marker. That doesn't show as Yes. Is
that in the spec now? It is in the spec? Yes.
I love that.
Yeah. So you can put your images in there. They'll just work
rotate, but it's not a jump point. You know, it's just like
a slideshow at that point and you just see it. Uh huh. Yeah.
And that I mean, you can have a pot, you could have a podcast of
all silent chapters where things just are shown to you. But there
are, there's no jump points at all. That's all Dino. So now
that we have that option, that's a perfect scenario.
So what what is the best way? So this? So this is very
interesting. This is now implemented in in two, possibly
three or four different places? What is the best way to move
this forward? Because now we have a scenario where it's
almost there. But it's not quite to spec. Now, this is granted,
this is something that has just started happening. Yeah. How do
we how do we move this forward? Because I have a use case, I
think it's a good use case. For that use case to work, I need
three extra things. In, in, in whatever I'm using to create the
chapters with, I need to be able to put an image in addition to a
URL, that image has to be hosted somewhere. And I would like to
have to add the silent, no chapter mark. So how do we get
it from where it is here? to I mean, I know how it goes at
Spotify. Some guy says, Hey, we've decided we're going to do
this. Everybody get on it, drop whatever else you're doing.
Yeah, that's clearly not the way to work. Martin did. Well, I owe
him. I owe him. I'll DJ your daughter's Bar Mitzvah,
whatever. Do anything. i Oh, my Oh, Martin, for sure. Because it
really took us a wave. Look at the look at what happened, man.
This is great. You did that. It's great. You did that?
Because that? I mean, it's, it's great. Because you're, if you
look at podcasts index, the index to social everybody.
There's a programmer? Yeah. Everybody, there's a developer,
except you. Really? Yes, maybe one or two other people. And so
like, if you don't break stuff and speak up, then the
developers are just gonna keep on lalalala. You know, just
gonna keep on going about their business and like pumping out
software that doesn't interop. And that's no good. It's like, I
think the way forward on this is simple. You we finalize the
tech, finalize that format, and we put it now now, I think it
was Kevin, ever Buzzsprout was saying, because I keep
mentioning bus route, because they've they've really jumped on
board and are trying to help us finalize the spec. And so that's
why they're Nikki's coming up a lot. They've just been hands on,
you know, helping, not just sitting back and saying, oh,
yeah, we'll do it when you know when the time comes. But they've
actually taken a hands on pushing code. So and what he
said was, you know, chapters is not something that our, that our
users are really calling for, but we realize it's important,
and we'll we'll support it. And I knew and I think I said this
early on that I knew that chapters was going to have to be
something that that I was going to have to politic for. Because
there are some things that are not necessarily being asked for
or clamoring for by users. But you sort of have a vision for
it. And mp3 chapters are good, because there's really zero
privacy implication. You can embed everything in there and
it's not it's not a big deal, but it is a pain in the butt.
Oh yeah. No, it's horrible. No, I think everything is great. I
mean, I really do. Everything is great, but we just need to go
through a couple of loops and Buzzsprout I am now your
customer I am signed up for the $24 a month plan and now I have
demands Yeah. Now have demands as a customer I have demands
it's going straight to this suggestion but we got a we got a
customer one chapters.
Here's something interesting. So there is no there's nothing
extra that I could find in this plan doesn't matter because I'm
happy to support them. Under artists slash there is more
episodes settings. items below are optional don't have to be
completed. Also some kind of impacts in higher episode
displays to be sure to understand what they do before
setting them. And then it has artists slash guest and already
populated in there's Adam curry ampersand John C. Dvorak, too. I
doubt an ampersand is a good way to separate two artists and
guests. I don't know if that's possible. So
I'm really just pull another iTunes author tags. Gah, okay,
it's in there as a single gotcha. I got it. But when the
He, when the contributor tag gets finalized, we'll, they'll
be able to separate that logically. Because it'll be
it'll be structured data in the fee.
Right, which adds a lot of complexity to what they're
doing. I understand that.
That's, I mean, the whole idea of having of having the and
that's, I think it caused some confusion earlier in the week,
because you had, you are calling for tools. And yeah, and the
hosters, were saying, Well, I mean, that's what we do. I mean,
we build we build tools. But there's also a class of a class
of podcaster out there who is self hosted. And then there's
also podcasters, who are on hosts that are smaller and
don't, maybe they're, they're using them because they're
cheaper, or for some reason other for some unknown reason
that we don't know about. And they don't have, and they're
just slow, and they're not quick to adopt, and that kind of
thing. And those, you don't want to lay those guys out in the
cold either. So the fact the fact that there's just more
tools is going to make this thing easier. And I think I
think we can submit it by finalizing that the chapters tag
this this week. I mean, I think that's totally doable. And one
of the things that I plan on doing this weekend is I'm just
going to take a look at the landscape and do a reorder on
have already had some discussions with people who have
expressed their ideas about what, you know, what should be
in phase one, phase two. And I agree, and I think everybody
pretty much sees the way this is going. So I'm just gonna go
ahead and reorder everything into phase one, phase two. And
then we'll just we'll kind of finalize this homestretch of
phase one is, hey, here's the three tags that we want to focus
on the most and see if we can get these things to the finish
line. I think that's
I think that's an excellent, excellent idea. And I will take
it upon myself, I'm going to create an account with blueberry
and one with fireside and who else we have Captivate. Yeah,
transistor transistor, I'll just create an account with
everybody. And I will, I will wreak, I will run my feeds
through every system and provide my feedback. And agree, but the
main thing is, if we have a namespace that has those
elements in it that we discussed, I'm going to push for
it to be implemented as such. Because we know that we have app
developers who are developing to that spec, but if no one's going
to create them to that spec, we lose again. Yeah, and every
single time we go through this loop, Spotify gets one step
closer to just making it, look, they have years to go. They
really do. I don't believe any of the hype. I'm not so sure
that they're the cat's meow. in all regards, they have anchor,
which is a big deal. But we are very nimble. And I know what it
takes in any corporation no matter how they come across to
do certain things. And we need to keep plowing ahead. And and I
can evangelize everything and anything and get people to use
your apps and go to your services. But I have to be able
to show it working.
So for another critical play this piece of the puzzle.
Right. So So I would say with with deep respect to the
Buzzsprout. Team, you're not done yet. I know it's just been
finalized. But please consider revisiting your chapters for
two receptors is not final yet. It's not finalized yet.
Know what, what is the only thing is finalized the lock tag,
then as far as I know,
lock, transcripts transcripts is
no there's no apparent way for me to make that there's no
apparent way in Buzzsprout for me to add that.
They'll they'll have to let us then they'll have to pipe in and
tell us what to do. Yeah, I know that guy. Because I see him. I
see him in the index. We're, we're aggregating that data now.
And I see Buzzsprout feeds with transcripts. I just don't know
how to get them in there. So yeah. And what was the last one?
There's three. I'm drawing a blank. But anyway, well, there's
three tags are finalists, we need to we need to finalize, I
think we can get chapters done this week. That and, you know,
the and a contributor tag. That also seems very doable. I think
we can get that thing done definitely by the 15th. We'll
also
and so then, the contributor tag implementing The tag into two,
just using Buzzsprout and the RSS builder. I'm pretty sure
I'll be able to do it in the RSS builder. But then really, how is
it being used?
But I think that's an easy one to implement on the app side.
And it because it's, I mean, it'll, it'll just be essentially
just a URL and a name.
Right, right. But in an image, I'm saying all the all the
things that we were talking about, how was the app going to
use this? So and I think we've given a couple of good examples,
just in a basic search. Now, I don't know if that's the index
or how that works. In a basic search. If I'm searching for a
guest, then I want to see the shows that that guest is on, and
specifically the, you know, the actual episodes. Otherwise, what
did you do for me? That's apple. And that's, Apple's doing that
stupidly. So we can blow past Apple just by making that that's
a big feature.
Yeah, I'll start doing that immediately. I mean, that's that
search, like, as soon as we aggregate that data in that way,
like, I mean, that's instant search ability.
So the next to the next part is, what do I get? How can I
contribute? To help to making that better? This is a good one.
So what can I do besides just adding a URL to a picture or, or
a single page? What can I do to make it better for the apps to
do something with that information? And and can I
control it to change the information? I mean, this to me,
is another authoring tool that I would expect from me or my tool
provider? Is it just a simple URL to a wiki page? Sure. Seems
kind of sad. That's the best we can do.
Yeah, well, there's other work going on, too. I know, I'm just
saying that not chaser, you know, pot chaser is built,
essentially, if I understand them, right, they're building a
database of various sort of verified, as use that term
loosely, because they're just verified hosts and guests. With
a lot of this information, they're trying to build almost
like a podcast. I mean, a wiki itself is what the way I take.
That's interesting. Yeah, and I mean, like they, they were on
the GitHub comments, saying, you know, hey, we got this work in
progress. And they may have released it this week, are not.
But they're going to also have an API. So there may be a third
party API that can now that can pull in some information we may
be get, this may be the beginning of like, the the
industry solving a problem. And this seems to be happening a lot
with this whole project is the industry is seeing a problem and
beginning then the motion of implement of fixing it or
building things around it. And then now the podcast namespace
can just give it an outlet. So
okay, so here's what I would recommend, since I I didn't
participate in the conversation on the GitHub and I, or at all
because I wasn't thinking about it. I've never cared about it,
because I saw nothing come of it. If we can at least get to
the point because I'm looking at pod chaser. They do the same
thing. That was great because pod chaser does. They do seem to
have a lot of good stuff in here, which everybody could hook
into. I don't know how people feel about it about using third
parties. But let's see, they already integrate with POD rover
pod status. My podcast reviews, Captivate vote Buzzsprout is
here.
My podcast reviews, that's Daniel J. Lewis.
So they says they have partial integration. Okay, that's the
whole lesson. I'm just reading this some features integrated
with POD chaser. New shows are able to be submitted to pod
chaser. Okay, pod chaser links on hosted podcast pages, no pod
chaser ratings displayed no. Displayed on episode no creator
profiles displayed on? No, this means so that's kind of worth
looking at. As long as it can as long as you can have
competition. Yeah, so that that's not a single point of
failure. But at its very core, it will be great to be in a
podcast app and say, Adam curry and it will show me the episodes
of shows where I was listed as a guest or a host.
Not just the podcast, the episode itself
the the actual episode itself. Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think which
kind of makes sense. Yeah, I think that's the point of it
all.
That's what everybody wants. Yeah, that's the one thing
everybody wants. And it sounds like if we're understanding this
right, Apple has gotten 1% of the way a stop to the finish
line 80% 80%.
Because they don't even they don't even surface the picture I
sent him.
Yeah, the picture forgot about that. We can do this, this can
be better. This can all be better. I mean, the
decentralized, the building a decentralized Can, can just work
better? Well, it's not the world feature. It's not that we're
targeting feature parity is it's that we're, we're taught, you
know, mutual friend of ours said that. Yesterday's like, you
know, there's no, it's not enough to just do what they do.
You got to do
better, better. Yeah, we're building back better.
Because, because if somebody's locked into a silo app, yeah.
You want to get them out of the silo app and back into the open
market. And so like, there's no reason to do that. If you're, if
it's just like, well, the open system just has the same stuff
I've got already.
Well, this is perhaps even this is a better example than
chapters really, because here's Apple, they've had this for
months and months and months. They've had this integrated,
they've received my pictures, they decided, I think, if you
search somewhere on Apple, it'll show my profile. And it may have
a wiki page link, I recall something like that. But it's
definitely not surfacing their app, or at least not any
apparent manner. We can kick everybody's ass because the
number one thing, the number one reason for this feature was
exactly that. Oh, my God, I loved hearing that guy on that
show. Well, you know, where else is he appearing? I believe that
was the main driver behind the feature. And what was discussed,
if I recall correctly as well, you know, a lot of people will
do spammy titles. Like if you liked Adam curry, you'll love
this episode, you know, that kind of stuff. But I think if we
have enough fields for, and by the way, is a room for four
guests, or is it just one guest?
Now, there's no limit?
There's no limit to how many guests tags you put in there.
There's not a limit to how many you put in there unless it's
imposed by the host, which would they'll they will have to impose
limits and A's, but there's I mean, per spec, there's no,
there's no limit. But I mean, like an aggregator I'll stop.
You know, I'll pick up, you know, five people. And then I'll
just stop after that. I mean, I'm not going to pick up 100
guests. But is this?
Is this an endpoint you want to provide?
Well, it will just get returned with the with the episode
results, and then there'll be a separate search. Which, and I'm
kind of like we have we have 50 million episodes in the index
right now. So that's a lot of data. And I've really held off
on any sort of episode search, until we sort of fry this fish.
Right? Because for that mean for you, because you want to get
that right. To start with. Yeah,
yeah. Cuz because really, I can't imagine searching 50
million episodes without having some indication of what you're
looking or have something specific. Right. So he's
saying guest and then name is that still?
No, no, I think that's fine. Yeah. Surely on the
purely on the the guest field in your database, he said simply.
So that's, that's an easier search.
Oh, yeah. I mean, like, that's, that's very doable. If we have
that structured data in there, we can do that. Right very
quickly. So
just looking at the way Buzzsprout has implemented it
right now, which is why they have partial integration,
whatever. Where it's guest slash host. Host slash guest. Actually
is so interesting. From just looking at the regular podcast
info, it still uses the artists tag. I know that's an industry
wide thing. I find that hilarious. It's what it is.
We need to have hosters we need to have them guest on the show.
Yeah. We next episode, we need to get hosters in because they
can show us how to use their software. Yeah, and yes, because
I'm probably doing around here this artist slash guests so
already. That it's an I'm not picking on Buzzsprout I love
these guys. They're going to be fantastic. It's just this is the
same everywhere. Everyone's making these legacy things.
Like they're they're jumping on the tag. They're gonna do that.
No, no,
I know. But I'm, I'm just providing the feedback. I'm not
an artist. It's a small thing. Oh, yes. Which is a small thing.
And do I do Adam Currys? Ampersand Jhansi. Dvorak and
then slash nothing? Or shouldn't it be two separate entries? One
for Adam Curry One for Jhansi, Dvorak. So these are all things
that you cannot create, as just a software developer on the
index as just a software developer on the hosting side,
or is just a software developer on the app side, this
conversation that we're having has to happen. We can't do it in
our vacuum either. You know,
this, this was this went from the the show where we read
namespaces, to the show where we describe trying to use software
on the internet. How beautiful is this? Let me scroll. Now, I'm
looking at this text box. I'm not sure what it means. Yeah,
it's our quest to get rid of all of our audiences is Wow, no, I
see.
I think there's eight people who who care. I really do. But
you want to do you want to thank them? Do you think that's? Well,
hold on? Yeah, I just wanted to say that we are at a beautiful
point, a beautiful point where we all understand what's
happening. And we have this glue. And, and I want to make it
even more sticky. So we really talk to all the players because
that's what's never happened, you know? And in the users, I
don't think they've been in the conversation, and just makes
better software. It really does.
And people are on podcasts index, not social.
Well, let me tell you what I can find. You get stats. Yeah,
stats. Let me see. Where's my preferences here? I think gets
on that one a second. For sure. Because I
see new people popping up 170 Nasty new people popping
up on a fairly regular basis. 80 to active this week. Yeah,
I mean, that's, that's a
good. That's not bad. We had 971 interactions this week, whatever
that means. But luckily, luckily, I have no backlog jobs.
What does that mean? That shit software's what the? What's the
backlog, Joe? Well, if I click on it, I get a dashboard. And
oh, okay. Yeah, this is this is not for the faint of heart. This
is, this is probably the disseration This is a sidekick,
sidekick. It's the Federation stuff. Yeah, it's how many
processes failed and queued. I love that term. N q not cute,
and cute, and cute and cute.
You need to you need to close that page right now.
I do want to let us thank some of the people who have
enthusiastically supported podcasts index.org. The this
podcast that goes with it. The Mastadon which now has search,
that was an extra 29 bucks a month? 2995 Yeah, well, I got to
if I ordered within 30 minutes. On TV, as seen on TV. It's this
is the value for value system. All we ask for is what value are
you getting out of the entire project and put that into time
talent or treasure or a combination of all three? Of
course, we have lots of people spending time, lots of people
spending their talent, and so beautiful to see people
supporting us with finances which we need otherwise, you
know, otherwise it stops eventually. And I love the
recurring subscriptions people getting certain basically buying
a server space which Yeah, it's yeah, it's like it's almost it's
like the other side to the Amazon Spot Instances. Does that
make any sense? It's like we have almost like a balance.
Yeah, like we we we spin up a spot instance and there's a $20
a month offset. It's really interesting how that works. And
I love it personally is great. Like a carbon offset is a
server. It's a server credit offset. Yes. Exists server
credit.
Yeah. The Yeah. I love that because we like it only really
takes. I mean like if if you have 20 people that do here 25
People that do $10 a month. It's done. Like it's really not it's
it's a low bar. It's so easy. No, it doesn't mean our hosting
fees. We intentionally keep them as low as possible.
Oh, you're the master. You're the master of the hosting fees.
Stay. Steve Webb is the master of giving us $50 $50 donation.
Steve God bless you. He is one of the original God casters have
known him for a long, long time. Very heated his beautiful wife
very, very sweet of you, Steve. Thank you. He's long long term
believe You've heard in what we're doing. Oh, that's great.
By the way, tell it if, if we missed anybody at the beginning,
like the first couple of ships, you got to email us. Yeah. Tell
us because we may have forgotten to credit you. It was where we
were in, in chaos.
Just startup chaos.
Todd Todd May May thin or mathan. He said that he he
taught math and yeah, he said he was original here for the for
the iPod
or he ran it he hand coded his OPML node for what country is he
in? Does it say What country is in
a said on the mastodon but it's not in the email? So I don't
remember
because I think he was I don't know if he was in the US. But
yes. Oh, it's so nice. Nice to end. Yes. And I do remember on
the on podcast, index dot social. Yeah, we had that all
set up with the directory was it was the the early podcasts
index.org, which was very manual. its execution.
But you kind of miss it too, though, right. I mean, it's
like, why simple.
When you and I were first talking about this project, you
know, we discussed the deep and we talked about it, how
beautiful that was? That? Yeah, you could just do these include
nodes. And you could just have this this outline that goes on
forever. And you can you know, it was like, it was like Gopher,
it was just like,
I've got all the podcasts and in South America, and there's,
there's 18 of them.
But you know that we had him? Yeah, that's for sure. That's
for sure.
Todd, thanks for the $20 month automatic payment. We get one
aggregator left. And it's all yours, baby. The see 10 $10 a
month now. Sorry, it's not $10 By
the way, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Yeah, he actually
taught I'm just looking at him. Todd mathan. He posted a
screenshot of an email from 11th of October 2004. I know. I know
where he says believe he still has the email. What is wrong
with you, Todd? He says, Hey, Adam, I'd be happy to help out
with a quote radio category in the podcast directory. I've got
an OPML editor, my own server and I said go for it. Just send
me the URL to the OPML. Thanks. That's how we roll baby. That
was it. That was it. Oh, man.
What a time capsule?
Yes. Beautiful. Nice. Very cool.
See adventures and audio. Send us $10 donation.
Thank you very much. Any note? Thank
you. No, no. I don't see a note. I didn't see. Michael Kimmerer
automatic payment $5.33 a month.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Michael. Let's see. Pedro on calvess. I hope I
pronounced that right. He sent an autumn air he's got he did an
automatic subscription for $5 Thank you very much. I think the
cops come and get me.
It's because of all that big Pay Pal money. You're rocking.
Rocking in there. It's
like it's making a dent. It's making waves.
It's gotta be drug dealers over there.
See, we got a one time donation for $15 from Allison Hamel.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I couldn't find a note.
Sent send us a note. If you want us to mention anything. Send it
we'll do it on the next episode for sure.
Yeah, and then an anonymous donation for $11.11.
Ah, nothing like an 1111. I could use them all day. That's a
good luck. Donation. Do you ever see that? Do you ever block
1111? Are you one of those people who sees that?
No, I thought it was snake as I thought it was a bad luck
donation.
Oh, no. It's supposed to be synchronicity. Oh, yeah. When
you see 1111 That's supposed to be new that you're you're
clicking in in harmony with the universe?
No, I didn't get that at all. My pessimism completely took over.
Okay. Well, that's it. That's what we asked. Well,
that's a good list that we really appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you so much value for value. You're going to be
hearing this a lot from us as we move forward, because
ultimately, the idea is to turn that into something a little
more tangible for everybody the value for value. Right. Well,
here's. I will. I will. What else do you have on your list? I
got some clips. You wanna do some clips for sure. For sure
which I got.
So did you find my sheet here? Did you hear about the four I
think you heard about the four q&a on podcasts that Spotify
removed, right?
Yes, I immediately took that as an opportunity to horror out
podcast index.org and associated apps and developers. And yes, of
course, I took that immediately. You bet as you should, as you
said, that's even when Joe Rogan's Alex Jones episode
didn't pop up or got removed or whatever the story was. There
was a lot of all of a sudden oh my god, it's gone. I immediately
posted if you're looking for episode 1555 of JRE is right
over here.
So that the okay so they removed for Q anon podcasts is how is
that was? Well,
that's how they categorize it. Right. They say it was Q anon
podcast. Yeah. Well, I
went and listened to each one of them. And by the way, I deserve
$10 a month, just for having to listen to some of these podcasts
every week to get clips. somebody owes me money for this.
Because sometimes it is painful to listen to.
I like to x 22. I've listened to x 22. And I've, and I've
followed Praying Medic, on on Twitter. I think he's gone from
Twitter. And so I kind of lost the and the reason why I do it
is just to check in. See what's going on with the Q anon people.
Now.
When I say terrible podcasts I'm really talking about you've got
one ISO in there. No, yes. Yeah, drop it. That must have been
tough for you.
Podcast. Is that a q&a on
podcast? No. That's from a podcast called mom knows best
from the Dance Moms moms.
So Oh, my goodness.
I don't even know how I ended up there. I think he was on cast
coverage or something like that. And you say
something about the Todd keeping his email since 2004. I don't
know what you're doing in your free time. Check yourself.
Okay. So my theory is that I mean, I think I listened to one
episode of each one of these four that got removed. And
there's nothing there. I mean, like it, it's not. These are so
play I think clip. I think clip one Q anon one is x 22.
Let's talk about prepared with the elections only weeks away.
We all know we need to be prepared for the worst civil
unrest is getting so ugly and sponsor to bring the entire
system to its knees, we know what the deep state's going to
do. We know that they're going to be pushing the second wave of
COVID 19 grocery stores and food manufacturers are already
preparing themselves for nationwide panic, will you be
ready, don't wait until it's too late. Remember the toilet paper
shortage, I urge you to visit prepare with x 20 two.com. and
build your emergency fund. And you need
to seeds is basically just a emergency food supplies. That's
what that's that's what this was. I mean, like, I know, x 22.
It may be a good podcast, but like, that's basically what
you're gonna get. So there's not going to be anybody fooled into
go into shooting up a place, or doing committing some crime by
listening to this podcast there. The what I think is going on is
basically they just they needed. Spotify needed some they needed
to get rid of somebody, they needed to drop the banhammer on
somebody. And so they just picked a few unfortunate
podcasts. Because q anon was an easy target. And they're like,
Okay, we're just gonna get rid of these as an as examples
because our main show, the one we spent 100 million on Joe
Rogan. We can't we we can't survive the PR of taking him
down. And all of our internal employees are freaking out.
They're trying to unionize. They're doing all this kind of
stuff because they hate Joe Rogan. But in order to appeal
and we can't but we can't take him down. So in order to you
don't want to have that would be like another Conan O'Brien
moment. So you so what they're doing like, look, we we can't
take down Joe Rogan. But here's four Q anon podcasts. See, these
guys are terrible. Let's take them off the air. Okay. That's
the way I read it.
All right. So I make a study of this. And there's a couple of
things going on. One let's talk about Joe Rogan for a second
because there's something going on with him. And I consider him
to be a friend, not a best friend or anything but we talk
we text we whatever. If you look at his most recent podcasts, the
one with Kanye West now I speak Kanye so I enjoyed that very
much Watch you got to you got to speak Kanye. I've had a year and
a half education for mo to understand just the the topics
that he brooches. But certainly in the Alex Jones, Tim Dylan
example. He was fact checking everything that was said, Every
four minutes five minutes that Jamie, is this true? Now this is
a problem that Joe has created for himself. Because the eyes on
him, he you know, the there's a lot of people within the Spotify
organization as you then that's absolutely true. There's a lot
of internal issues with that doesn't even matter why or if
it's right, or if it's wrong, it's just a fact is what it is.
And his way to combat that is by trying to fact check, you know,
weird, crazy, outrageous stuff so that he later can at least
say, well, we fact check that this is very destructive to his
entire format. And he will have to stop or people will stop
watching slash listening. It is disruptive to his format. very
disruptive. There's always been some level of the young Jamie,
looking stuff up. But now fact checking. I mean, it's the
possibly the worst thing you can do. Because for every fact
check, we've got a fact check false. You can fact check
anything from any page anywhere. And it's a never ending story.
And what he's doing is he's disrupting his flow and his
interview. And that is because he's on Spotify. That yeah,
that's because Joe is a really, really nice guy. He's really a
sweet guy. I know him. He doesn't want to offend people,
he wants to try and keep all sides kind of imbalance. It just
doesn't work that way. It's you know, you if you try to straddle
you just it's just gonna wind up mediocre. So we have to figure
that out. But that is because of the Spotify move. I would hate
to wake up every single morning. Like, what are they bitching
about now? There's just a lot of negativity. The Q anon thing
stems from a different issue. From a lie, a lie that was
created and propagated My day job is deconstructing media. And
where it really started was with the town hall in Florida with
President Trump and Savannah Guthrie, and this is where it
started.
Denouncing let me ask you about Q anon. It is this theory that
Democrats are a satanic pedophile ring and that you are
the Savior that this
I followed Q anon from the beginning. It has never been
about Democrats. Yeah. But they've created this lie. And I
think the first time I really saw it big was here. And
Democrats, and it was interesting. I didn't clip it. I
don't think but on Saturday Night Live, when they did the,
the take off of that town hall. They actually had Alec Baldwin
as the Trump character saying it's Democrats, Democrats,
satanic children, which Trump never said. So they have turned
this into a well, this is political, because they're
saying Democrats, I would challenge anybody to find
something that says specifically, it's just
Democrats, if anything is Hollywood celebrities. People
like Zuckerberg, Tom Hanks, Madonna, you know, these people
may be Democrats. But that was I've never heard this specified
as it's only Democrats, and who was a big relationship over at
Spotify. Higher Higher Ground productions, Michelle and Barack
Obama. So there was a power play and the power play went all the
way through even though it was it's disingenuous, and really
created in my mainstream media because cue I never saw this
distinction. And now maybe it's just out there. And that's what
it will be forever, because now I hear people's I even heard, I
heard Todd and Rob on, I guess was the new media show talking
about this very issue. And they stated as fact. Well, it's
political because it's about Democrats doing such so it's out
there. It's already been cemented in people's minds. This
was a political move. I believe that there's already enough
trouble with the Michelle Obama podcast not getting the reach it
does. They can tell me all that they want about it. That's the
number to podcast. I think it's baloney. This was a power play,
someone got pissed off, and then something had to fall. So in
that part, you're correct. And, and somehow pressure was
applied. Because Oh, my God, there. And I think that people
who were asked for this and were responsible for the delisting
probably believe it's only about Democrats, and they've never
looked into it and never listened to it.
So it's like an accident. It's like, an accident of of news
cemented this connection. And now they have to go, they have
to defend it.
Yes, and it will be that way forever. And these things happen
all the time. It's often by accident. But this was
purposeful, purposeful, purposefully turned into that to
get rid of it. And
they must have, they must have just a console, then that just
says, like, where you can just search for stuff, and hit the
Delete button, because somebody just said Q anon. And then they
found like four podcasts and they just like, Okay, we'll take
the top four, because one of these was podcast called
indigenous mic. And I think it's, I think that may be
clipped for.
Hey, what's going on beautiful people. Thank you so much for
tuning in today. I'm your host, indigenous Mike. And today, I
want to focus on Democrats having faith, having strength
and finding yourself evil. So over the past few years,
I want to hear it now. I want to hear the rest of it. I have
been finding myself, I have been realizing the true potential of
myself and every other person on this planet.
Clearly dangerous speech going on. Yeah, clearly dangerous,
is the worst sort of hate speech that I've ever heard. I don't
even know. I mean, like, this guy's just, and this was an M
for a, by the way, audio was greatly three. So I mean,
clearly this person is just indigenous mind. He's just, this
is one token into his.
So we need to talk about this briefly. Section 230 of the
Communications Decency Act from 1996. I'm a student of this. And
it's incredibly important to podcast index.org, that we
maintain this protection under Section 230. Which means we
cannot be held liable for anything that is uploaded to our
platform. Now, we may get a government request for something
which I don't know, I don't know. How, how if or when that
will come about. I guarantee you we're going to have all kinds of
shit coming our way. It will happen. And it was an
interesting. That sounds great in the noise gate.
Flanger I
guarantee you that will happen. But I just want to state one
thing. There is no legal definition of hate speech.
There's no legal definition of it. And I was extremely
disappointed to see our senators and everybody else circle
jerking around with Pichai and Zuckerberg and and Dorsey and
actually discussing the concept of hate speech as if it's a
thing and I will put my neck on the line for any kind of speech.
I don't care what it is we have constitutional things that are a
problem. Literally inciting violence. I mean, that's that
that's clearly spelled out what those exceptions are. But
everything else I will I will stick I will stake a lot on that
so there's nothing is going to get taken down or removed. This
is this is very destructive what Spotify and Apple and others are
doing. It's very, very, very, very bad.
If you've been reading I'm sure you have Tybee and greenwell's
articles lately have
course on the subject. Yeah, yeah, he's,
let's see was this Yeah, this is from Greenwald's thing
yesterday, he says. This was not an easy choice, and voluntarily
sacrificing the support of large institution and guaranteed
salary in exchange for nothing other than unbelief that there
are enough people who believe in the virtues of independent
journalism and the need for free discourse who will be willing to
support my work by subscribing to like a think that was
happening. There's this talk about well, the to private
companies, and it's not a matter of free speech because this is
not the government. But what you seen with Greenwald, anti Eb,
especially Mata ABC has been, he's been showing how the news
media has become more and more concentrated in in tech just lit
the flame like it just it was a gasoline and tank just lit it up
to where almost all local media has been decimated. So there
there is, yes, these are private companies. But they've become
really over the last seven to eight years, maybe 10 years,
they've become the default funnel for all speech gets
pushed through, really these three companies mainly Twitter,
Facebook, Google. I mean, there's, yes, they're private
companies. But when they put all other local media out of
business, then they have basically vacuumed it all up.
And they they took the space that local media had like here
in Birmingham, Alabama, we had going his you know,
historically, we had two major newspapers at the post Herald
and Birmingham News. And they're both gone. Yeah. I mean, the
Birmingham News building, it was a huge building that they built
about, I guess, about 20 years ago. And it's now an insurance
company. There's for all practical purposes, there is no
newspaper in Birmingham anymore.
Right, but a bit sure there's a couple of good blogs.
Oh, yeah. Well, aol.com is the is the website for all news
here. And it's just, you know, they just kind of scooped up all
the leftover reporters from the various newspapers like
we this is who I could talk for hours about this, however, yeah.
I'm just looking at federated Mastodon servers or pour out
fluorine, plural, whatever it's called.
Aroma pluralism.
That's another kind of new social, whatever it is. Yeah.
That's much bigger than it was I mean, that's grown. So I'm, I'm
much less of a oh my god, they're censoring us. I'm like,
I'm gonna have my conversation somewhere else. It is. It is an
educational issue that people are headline readers. And it's
slowly these are slow processes, but to have Greenwald, and tyy
be, and there'll be more. Okay, how about Megyn Kelly, now she
got a huge pay day. But Megyn Kelly on the podcast,
unrestricted is dynamite. She I mean, she's really good. I was
always like, yeah, and I don't get I don't really care too much
for, right. But when she's her unrestricted self, she's a great
journalist. She doesn't actually really create an outstanding
product. Now she's gonna get into her trouble because she's
got legacy box and other sponsors. She doesn't need a
sponsor. I think she got $60 million pay off to leave NBC or
CBS versus do it for fun. Yeah, but she's doing it. She's she's
taking it very seriously. We have enough uptake. True. I
mean, as you've pointed out, there's at least 40% of the
market of the podcast market that we can, can work with. Now
we need a couple of things. First of all, we need to free
podcasting from corporate control. This is what's taking
place, we can all say it's, you know, we can pretend it's not
happening. Spotify is the furthest along. Amazon is trying
to figure it out, they may never figure it out. Google believes
they own it anyway. Because it's on the internet. So it's there's
I Heart Radio, pathetic attempt at trying to save a company
that's leveraged with billions of dollars they can't afford,
I'm sorry, it's not going to be not going to be a happy ending
for them. And the leftover is Apple, who will probably
innovate for as you've pointed out, podcasts, plus, we've got
Apple TV plus, we got all kinds of plus stuff. So they'll
probably do their own version because people believe that they
can make money off of a network of shows, which I know doesn't
work in this new paradigm. So we in order to succeed, we have to
free podcasting from corporate control. And here's the big one.
Not for today's show. But we're going to talk about it integrate
decentralized content with decentralized money. Yeah. And
through that, we're going to be building a self sustaining
ecosystem for podcasting. You know, the index is kind of
running by its own right now because the servers are paid
for. You're not paid for. Yeah. I have Eric back office, he's
gonna be doing lots of legal stuff he's not paid for. So we
need to have a system, everybody needs to get a pay day, we might
as well just all quit. But I believe in my core in my core,
we can make this happen. And I love doing these numbers for
everybody. And I'll leave it at that. Because I think we've done
it before. There are 100 million podcast listeners in the US.
That's the IAB statistics. On average, those 100 million
people listen to one hour a day, seven days a week or one hour a
day, people listen, if we can convert 1% of those 100 million
people. And the conversion for no agenda is like 3%. So of all
the people we have, we've converted 3% to send us money
directly send actual monetary value, forgetting all that, oh,
setting aside all the things that people do, that would cost
us money, the pure money, I think we can convert 1% of the
100 million podcast listeners to support the shows they listened
to in a frictionless manner. So if we can convert 1% to
podcasting 2.0. And we say we value, one hour of listening at
$1 per hour, we're talking about a million dollars a day that can
flow through to podcasters app developers and hosting
companies. And a little piece of everybody that is a part of it
can participate in this flow. I think we have a way to capture
it. This is not going to be easy. But we need a next
generation solution for the next problem, or the really the next
phase of media. Nothing, all of this is going to go away these
advertising advertisements. It's all going to change. It's not
going to be a successful look. They've had 15 years. It's not a
billion dollar business yet. No, it's not going to be a billion
dollar business. YouTube is having an incredible problem
right now you know what their problem is? They need to go up
5% for their quarterly revenue. They are they have no more
content to stick their ads on.
It's so saturated.
They're doing they're doing three ad breaks before before
you see the video. They're showing political ads on
children's programming.
It's a reverse inventory problem. Yes, exactly.
They literally don't have the inventory. They've oversold
everything. So now they have to start jamming it up. Everybody's
bought it. And you know what happens? People go to bid shoot.
You know what, yeah, you know, what happens with when people
get sick and tired of Twitter? Some it's gonna be on the
blockchain or god knows what, you cannot stop this.
You know, we're guessing we'll be on the blockchain to pot I
have no doubt in mine. In my mind podcast subscriptions will
be on some form of blockchain or, or DHT space or whatever,
whatever it is, we will overcome these issues. But we have to be
fearless and we have to move ahead with big, big brass balls.
Which I love doing. Big brass balls. I could put instead of
here come the pioneers, big brass balls. Yeah, much chapter
marker. I'm just chapter. Okay, I'll make it as a chapter
marker. There you go. That's an even funnier idea. So and I'm
super excited. And we have work to do, you know, we have to
figure out Dave and I have been working on the decentralized
money part. And we cannot wait to show everybody how it works.
And we're still finalizing bits and pieces. If we're a proof of
concept, which works. But we can't do any of it until we have
figured out how to work between toolmakers hosters app
developers and producers and listeners, we haven't quite
close that loop yet. We we really accelerated this week.
With with with, with just understanding the problem and
starting to create some fixes for it.
We just gotta be it's gotta be something that it's got to be
able to touch every person in the chain from their listener
all the way through to the Creator. And it's got to also be
something that is not that is not controlled by any one
person. It's got to be something that we can all fit anybody can
lift dropped down on their own system. It's not it's got to be
something that's not we're going to run our piece of it, but it's
not going to be something that that, oh, that's just you know,
the podcast index thing. It's an old, it's got to be an open
spec, it's got to be because that's the only way I'll
survive.
And, and, and with that comes, like, we can't even start to
talk about it until we figured out how to agree on a namespace
element, and how to get it implemented and working and
tested and iterated and iterated and iterated. Again, if we can't
do that properly, with host and guest tags, we're never, we're
never gonna, we're never gonna get anything else done. So, I'm
very excited about moving all of these and I'm focusing purely on
the tags where I can purely on the tags and the namespace. I
will do my best to create, to create use cases of, of these
different pieces of functionality, and I will
continue to be vocal about the problems I'm having. And I'll
add some wishlist things in there as well because, you know,
no one asked me,
you know, I will continue to put put emojis in podcasters
excellent social.
Have you been doing emojis?
That's, it's gotta stop.
I can't I can't bring myself to do emojis. It's very difficult
to control. And whenever you do a smiley face old school that
always says, Did you mean this?
Yeah, like no, Arrow,
Arrow, Arrow, key arrow key to the right.
All right, I gotta do some work. Yeah, you bet. Ready to wrap it?
Yeah.
Anything else? Is there anything else that we can do for you if
there's something that you need?
I do need sleep. We had storms here. A couple of nights. Yeah,
that's
right. It was getting pretty close to you guys. Another
hurricane bullcrap. Now,
it hit about 45 minutes south of us. And it was the wind was
screaming up here and
Mia, you know, none
of my family
can't see it. All right, my brother. Happy Halloween. You
going out? Oh, yeah, we'll be taking their little girl. I'm
gonna go dressed as
namespace and be the contributor today. All right, Dave. Have a
great weekend, buddy. I'll talk to you next week. See everybody
on the next podcasting 2.0