Oh, podcasting 2.0 for December 30 2022 Episode 115 We're
boosting in the new year. Once again time for the very last
board meeting of the year 2022 Everything happening at podcast
index.org Of course the latest on all things podcasting 2.0 and
whatever else is going on and being invented in the Mad
laboratories at podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here
in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and Alabama celebrating
12 years with me and we never had a fight. Say hello to my
friend on the other end. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dave Jones.
I got off early today a little bit early from work. I'm
enjoying the adult beverage.
Oh, you know what? It's interesting. You say that I am
also enjoying an adult beverage.
What it would adult beverage Are you?
I am imbibing AR GLA Rs. It is well it's a very it's a it's a
it's a fancy pronunciation for a $10 wine called Argyle, but I
like to call it RG les. Makes me feel better. Yes, exactly.
That's just a general idea. No, I I did a podcast earlier with
Moe so no, I'm all warmed up and like, hey, the sun is over the
yardarm. It's 10 After five, we are lit. Thank you, everybody
for for pre boosting us. And we might as well say right off the
bat. We have an esteemed board member with us today. Ladies and
gentlemen, please say hello to the honorable James Kirkland.
Thank you very much. It's great to be here. It's very exciting.
I have an adult drink of a coffee in front of me because
it's nine in the morning here.
Oh, man, that's that's a West week. Really?
You're blowing the whole Australian shrimp on the barbie
mate thing are Irish,
Irish. And Irish that thing up with a little bit of a little
bit of a single malt scotch.
This is a knife. Yeah, you go that's what was that? Oh, of
course Crocodile Dundee. Whatever you eat Eat American.
Australia. Right? He's okay. It's not a knife. Mine. This is
a knife.
I'm having a I'm having a eggnog blessed over eggnog from from
the holidays with a shot of cracking dark room. And it's
quite good.
Cracking dark room. Very nice.
Actually appropriate Moosehead glass.
Actually ready for your rush boost?
Yeah, and I've also got some cucumber flavored Pringles
potato chips.
Goodness, that sounds vile. But he didn't do arable. Oh, that's
chemical.
We do this every year. We for my for my kids, we have this
traditional Christmas tradition of we go to the Asian market and
fill up our kids stockings with it. We buy things that we can't
they don't have any English on them. So we don't know what they
taste like. And so it's always like you put it you put it in
your mouth you're like, oh my god, what is this?
Cucumber flavored when you say Asian market? Is that? Is that a
generalization? Or is it Japanese? Chinese Vietnamese,
Thai? It's
literally called the Asian markets.
It's an Alabama thing.
Yeah, no, no, I mean there's there's some some form of you
know, nationality that but there's never the same. I mean,
it's it's an Asian market connected to a Chinese
restaurant, but the guys that cook the food they're all
Mexicans. I don't know what's going on there as it is just
like it's popery.
I will start right off the bat with blueberry how to request
since we're all imbibing in in beverages. You said Adam,
please, can you rip the bong for me before the show starts? I
gotta rip the mood right?
Yes, chatrooms drinking, I think I opened the I think I cracked
it open on this. Alright, everyone will have a syllabub
after the show. Do you know syllabub? No. syllabub is some
kind of French it's like a French whipped cream. Think
dessert with this. It's got
you just making this. Just got contra Contra. Oh, yeah. Cool.
Quatro on tall. Yes. Which I drink on my seat.
I just want to sell sophisticated from once. Okay,
okay. Well, you're in the right crowd because we got you know,
we got the the Palmy Yeah. James. I think it was actually
exact. Was it not exactly a year ago that you were here at the
board meeting?
It was exactly a year ago. Yes. It's, it's almost becoming a
tradition.
I like it. It was I remember very stressful last year because
we went long. And our dog was new and had not been to the
whole boot camp and, and then everything was freaking out and
one of our friends came by and she was just going nuts. Just
and I and I made her to keep the lights off because I had a
buzzer Mike Mike, it was like, there was divorce worthy. I'll
tell you it was it was a close call that one is close call.
Yes, no, I remember that. I remember the there was a, there
was a big, big five minutes of silence in the middle of that
show, of course edited out, but
I'll be right back, you guys finish up Welcome to well
prepared now this time well prepared. Ah. So I guess we'll
just go through a couple of a couple of things that are that
are in the news right now actually, James, what did for
people who have not? Who I can't imagine, but it turns out
according to the OP three stats, we have 1600 unique listeners.
So maybe you should just let everybody know who you are and
what you do.
Well, yes, I am the editor of pod news, which is a daily
newsletter all about podcasting and on demand. And I present
present that's very English word, isn't it? And I host the
pot News Daily, which is a daily podcast, which is essentially
that in audio form and a weekly podcast with my friend Sam Sethi
called the podcast weekly review,
is we I think we both were at one point were considered
presenters, presenters. Yes, presenters,
it was it was it's a very, it's here in Australia, you're called
an announcer. Confusing. And in India, you're called an RJ
and RJ, a radio jockey. And, you know, when I was at MTV, and
they This was back in the day when they were still kind of
like, oh, well, everyone gets business cards. Right? Okay,
cool. What do you want your business card? Just Adam curry?
No, no, it has to have a title. Can I need to have nothing known
as every title? That we suggest, Vijay? I'm like, once you put
fucking leper on there instead, he said no. How about air
personality and produce? I got it though. I got it. I got an
air personality and produce her
personality. I was able when I worked at the BBC for a couple
of years, and I was able to you there was just something on the
intranet where you could just fill in an order your business
cards. And I was and I was there thinking, do I just write
managing director on there? Would anybody know? Would
anybody know? cage of gravity head of gravity? There's a job
that you can't miss out.
You there with the Dutch? The Dutch guy, Eric.
I was Eric Eric huggers. Yes, I did. I had lots of lots of
entertaining stories about Yes, I
know him quite well in Holland. Yeah, quite well. Yeah. He's one
of those guys. He's a great guy can't do anything but gets great
jobs. You know what I mean?
He did a ton of things while he was there, he launched the
iPlayer Oh, I know that was that was actually he actually managed
to get that get that out and get that done. So he was nominally
my my boss. But because it was the BBC, I had another another
boss who was my day to day boss. And my day to day boss didn't
agree with anything that Eric was doing. It was just, it was
just it was two years of my life that I will never get back.
He's just one of those guys that just pops up and like then he's,
you know, like Blockbuster. You know, it's like taking that
digital and like, what do you how do you get these jobs? Yeah.
And
then and then and then Intel? I think he right? Yes. He was
in charge of this special processing units or something?
Yeah, he's got a good rap. Yeah, it's a hot Brazilian wife thinks
she's got some he's got some good stuff going on. So I was
looking at my fountain stats today. No, yes. Turns out that
I've been boosting you as one of the most of all the shows I
listened to.
Thank you. That's very kind of, you know, interesting.
Now. It's like, yeah, 473,387 SATs
was a lot to bitch about.
That is the weekly review. Review. You're right. That's
where I've
been, and that's one of the that's one of the brilliant
things about a booster gram. Is that, yeah, the more angry Adam
gets, the more
I know, I know. More pissed off 1000s I know, it's like I'm
gonna get your attention. And you're gonna say, oh, man,
sorry, I'm here. My node wasn't connected. Didn't see it in time
for the show. Being fair, I'm just messing with you, man. Just
getting
ready. The first second. You know, the, the 100% Retro work
was nice. And it was fun. And then there's been there seems to
be a lot of you've been talking a lot about radio lately. James
and I'm just wondering, I mean, how does this to me it to me the
way I see this? You know, this is my naive mind my naivete I'm
sure is not being French word. I mean, I'm about to have syllabub
so I mean, that may the my naivete is not as of a non
radio. You know, history here is that you have this. You have
what is the you have millions of of what Adam calls radio
receivers these podcast apps ready to go? And like, doesn't
that just seem like a fertile field? For for live streaming?
To direct I mean, everybody's Everybody's used to audio in a
in a podcast is audio in a podcast app, just us why just
just not a whole lot of tweaking, very, very little
tweaking could turn those all into live radio tuners in a in a
heartbeat. Does that make sense that that would be something
that they would do.
I mean, and back in my long term history, I actually launched the
first streaming radio app for a radio station, I was working for
a station called Virgin radio. And in March 2005, we launched
the first streaming app in the world, which was very strange
and got me into an awful lot of trouble. But, yeah, I mean, I
think one of the real benefits of radio of proper radio is that
is live is that you feel as if you're part of a community, you
feel as if there are other people consuming the same stuff
as you do. That's what lets does in the podcast field as well,
you know, you you feel and you can hear while you're recording
this particular show, you can hear that there are other people
who are boosting right now. And that's a great thing. So the
benefits of radio are actually a bit different to the benefits of
podcasting. Podcasting is very much more around you're in
control, you're listening to it on a device that you're holding
on to normally or it's certainly within arm's reach. And so
therefore, you can fast forward through the boring bits, you
can, you can do all kinds of stuff like that you can choose
different things to go and have a listen to. So they are quite
different. But I do think that there's something there in the
middle of radio, merging with the podcast world and the the
live experience of radio merging with the on demand experience of
a podcast, there's something there in the middle that I don't
think I think you're right, I don't think has been fully, you
know, fully looked at by the radio industry, if I bet, you
know, I mean, all that they care about is keeping their am and
FM, you know, sticks running. That's all that they really care
about.
I have 12 years of experience with this. And it was kind of
standard, nothing special. And when I say 12 years of
experience, over 12 years, no agenda show has been streaming
while we record. And that's been mainly because I record Direct
to Tape. There's never any editing except for, you know,
putting something in the front as a little opening thing. Or if
there's a technical error. And we've had a stream for maybe 13
years, we've had a chat room equally as long. But it wasn't
really until well, actually, I would say it's more this show in
the past two years. That got me much more interested in
interacting with with the chat room. And, and you're right,
James, the thing that's really unique, and I would say most
radio. So much has changed since I was doing radio when people
you know, the way to feed back to the show was people in the
car, maybe on their cell phone or sometimes at the office or at
home, turn your radio down here. But the booster gram element,
and I've witnessed it now from both sides, from things coming
in people commenting in real time, and I finally for the
first time it happened was it Wednesday, I think I got a ping
that new media show was going live. I've been waiting for this
for two months for this to work. So being that goes I'm like
right away, boom 50,000. Although I thought Tom was a
little demure, he could have been a little happier about my
50,000 sat. Boosting grant, but
laid it down a little bit.
Oh, there's Adam was 50,000. Okay. So yeah, get your own.com
that's right on. It read that's the payoff, by the way. That's
better than get your own dog calm. It was really, really good
experience. And it's definitely new. So what we have right now,
is we have a lot of people doing video, YouTube Live video, you
know, put a lot of work into that. And they are in fact doing
the same thing. They're streaming. That's where the
Super Chat comes from. They're all you know, they're very
invested in the video aspect. But this, it's a new beast, I
think lit is in a way a category of its own. It's something
different and I like treating the eye just like a studio
audience. Now, I'd like to see that we have people in the chat
room. It could be 50 65,000 Doesn't matter of fact, you
know, 1000 is probably more than enough. You're just people
yapping away. and feeding stuff back. And you know, you read
stuff. You don't always have to mention it. But it's a it's a
category. There's a radio guy, where I'm used to running the
board. I'm used to seeing having multiple things going on while
I'm having a conversation. And then I can see over here, oh,
people are chat. And Dave, you've gotten pretty good at it,
too. You're also you have you starting to develop that. Oh,
something here in the chat room while I'm talking.
Yeah, it's different. I mean, it's different. And I think
like, and I think that could be you said, you know, I'm starting
to get the feel for it. And I think also listeners, it may be
a listener, teaching thing, like one thing I noticed from looking
at John Spurlock's top secret, you know, sure
that everyone got an email for now. Thanks. Yeah, right. Why
first name here?
Is your top secret don't go talking about
Hi podcast or in brackets. The thing that the thing that I
learned from that is that, especially with our show, but
also for nogen, as well, there's a lot of, there's been a lot of,
of movement. If you look at things like like Oh, no agenda,
the one that stood out to me was pod vers pod versus blipped,
like 5%. Because promoting it as lit, that's what we say you can
move the needle as a as a host, you can move the needle on your
listener behavior. And so the same thing like I think you can
teach the listener to also enjoy the live experience it I mean,
not it's not going to be for everybody, not everybody's gonna
love it. But a thing like Tom from Buzzsprout texted me a
couple of weeks ago. And it's like, he saw that he was on
Twitter, and he saw the the he saw the pod paying to go live.
And he just popped it and listened to it and pod version.
He was like, Hey, this is really cool.
I mean, this is this is also the element that I think what people
got so excited about clubhouse was kind of the same idea where
you have an alert mechanism, like something's going live, oh,
my God, I don't want to be left out, something's happening. You
can click the right in there, you hear people talking, you
have an opportunity to participate in limited manner.
But you look at some of these guys, like blueberry and all the
things to fucking crazy. They got if you send, you know, six
to 6000 SATs, you get a different jingle that fires and
there's all kinds of ways you can enhance this. And at James
that is really, to me when all your interactive read you and we
all heard it, we probably even both gigs that someone paid us
to do something we knew was was stupid, but there will be
interactive radio. This is really it. It really is a new
category. And there's enough people who are doing live video
that they should surely be able to, and I think probably more
profitably be able to do just live audio.
Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. And I think also if you if you
look at it from the podcast, hosting companies point of view,
the biggest risk to their business, the biggest risk to
somebody like Todd or you know, the Lipson crowd, or pod bean or
sprout. The excellent folks at Buzzsprout still haven't really
signed for next year. The big, the biggest risk to them is that
people get bored of podcasting because they don't get any
feedback. And so they stopped producing a podcast. So anything
that helps them retain that customer is an investment into,
you know, it's really expensive to get a customer, all of that
marketing, all of that excellent sponsorship of the pod news,
weekly review, hell, all of that stuff is really expensive, but
once they are in, don't lose them when they start losing
interest. And so, you know, things like comments, things
like live comments is really, really important. I think, and
I'm really surprised at how few podcast hosting companies have
really grasped this yet that actually, you know, the thing
for them is to keep their current customers really fired
up about what they're doing. And there are podcast companies that
do all of these things, you know, sending you emails, you
know, well done, you've got 10,000 downloads now, and well
done, you've got 100,000 downloads now, and those are
really good examples of that. But actually much better is key
is what your audience is saying. And that's why people get so
excited about Apple podcasts, ratings and reviews, you know,
yeah, that's
a very inferior feedback mechanism. Whereas what I've
always said about value for value is you get one buddy to
fire up one of the 2.0 apps and listen to your show. And you can
see it with Todd oh my god there's another one another one
sack because lb does every every transaction. So it's like boom
that Oh, there's another some another minute from somebody,
but I have the same i i Sometimes will just sit at home
and now fire up Um, you know, what is our what is that zap oh,
five to zap wallet, go look at the podcasting 2.0 node, and it
and it does transactions enrollment in real time. And
also and it's all one set. But it's, you'll see like 2025 a
minute. And I'm just I'm not looking at Satoshis. I'm like,
There's 25 Different people using apps right now that are
listening to podcast. It's a Kindle. It's so cool. And when
it happens to my own podcast, we see stuff it doesn't it's not
about the money. It's about exactly what you said, Oh, my
God, there's someone on the other end somewhere. And they're
signaling to me that they're listening. I mean, as a as a
radio guy, you couldn't get that you couldn't get you got the
ratings, which you feared, of course.
I mean, I did the evening show on the on one of the radio
stations that that I worked for. And I did the evening show for
about two and a half years. And the first year I did a big thing
of it's my birthday soon. Don't forget March, the 18th. It's my
birthday, here's the address for the for the radio station, send
in all of your presents, I'm really looking forward to them
and made this whole thing about the fact that it was my birthday
and everything else. And the last year that I was doing it, I
didn't mention my birthday at all, because I had given my
notice here and I was stopping during the show. I didn't even
know if I'd be on on my birthday, because they typically
take you off a little bit early. So
once one that no one wants to notice. Yeah. And you're good to
go.
Yeah, then then that's basically it. And so I didn't mention it
at all. I get to the and this was in the early 1990s where,
you know, there were no such things as electronic diaries or
email or anything else, you know, for most people so so I
get in to the radio station. On my birthday, I have a look in
my, in my physical inbox, where they used to put the post and,
and there was six birthday cards. Oh, six birthday cards,
where people had written my name and and the address down 12
months previously. Oh, it's this guy's birthday. And so they sent
me another birthday.
Cool. No, that told you exactly. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, only six. But
I remember. Now, I was gonna say zero MTV, I had been in this
game so early, we had MTV just send me a postcard send me a
letter I had at any given moment. Eight to 10 for mail
bags full meal was impossible to get through. So but I would have
them in the bathroom. And so if either me or the sound guy was
my friend, we're taking a dump, like, you know, you can take a
dump but just read a couple letters and see if there's
anything in there. For me. It's kind of like, kind of like a tax
tax.
There was a there was a guy called Knoll Edmonds who used to
do the Radio One breakfast show in the UK, and then went on to
to TV and stuff. And he was telling a story about the fact
that he he used to get mail bags of, of posts and things and you
know, postcards and all this, all this kind of stuff. And then
he was away from radio for about 20 years, came back to radio and
did a couple of weeks on an afternoon show. And of course,
the way that we send feedback had completely changed and you
didn't get postcards, right? Text messages or text messages
right right in front of your face which didn't have to pay
people which people paid for you could you could reverse charge
that will cost you 25 Pence or 50 Pence or whatever it so
anyway, he does his first his his first presents break or show
link you know, he talks for the first time Oh, then closes,
closes closes his microphone. And things right that's my first
as my first talkie bit over looks up at the screen, which is
right in front of his face. And I'm going to swear now. And the
first the first text that he sees, said Who let that bearded
untalented to get back on the first day he says
not to swear word in America
is okay. Yeah, so it's, you know, so so things have really
changed. But actually, the need for direct feedback is a really
important thing. And whether that's direct feedback in terms
of chat rooms, or whether that's direct feedback in terms of
comments and cross out comments, you know, hugely important. I
think
you nailed it. It's about community. And by the way, Dave
Jones, do you see what you see when you you uncork two radio
dudes, we're gonna go talking for 20 minutes about radio.
So I'll only have three questions on my entire piece of
paper here because I know that each one of us goes for 45
minutes.
So that's one. I just want to thank Mitch, he stomped on all
the pod verse bugs with the value for value issues I was
having on graphene OS granted I'm, you know, I'm out there I'm
not your traditional guide because I use a different
operating system works beautifully. I'm super happy.
Now that Alby stays connected and everything and that boosts
buttons come up, it's really it's really a nice app. I mean,
it's really good and God bless
Mitch for for making the the non Googled Android phones first
class citizens I mean, that's not easy stuff to do. It goes
the extra mile to make sure that stuff works. That
breeze does that as well. I'll give my props to breeze and by
the way, I stomped on a breeze bug Hello, I feel pretty did you
fail you found it I feel pretty powerful about that. I didn't
get no bounty or anything the hell this was I'm looking at so
I'm looking at get Alby stat and the Saturn stats and and it has
no I'm sorry, the continent was contracts. Well, anyway, it was
one of the two stats packages for get Albion I'm seeing these
weird booster grams like every single time, a breeze booster
gram came in, it started a whole new episode. As in the stats,
I'm like, What is going on here? So and this coincided with an
RSS feed bug, which I thought was a bug, but I messed it up
and you were helping me stomp on that. So I'm like, is this
something that is related to the RSS feed? And you'll always DNS
first? No, it's not DNS. Here's the RSS feed. Now it wasn't
that. And then I think well, and then I go looking in the GitHub,
and it was asked who would propose to send along the
episode, the podcast index episode ID with each booster
gram, which is the standard, which is what they're doing as
well. And I see I know that, that was about two weeks ago.
That's when my app updated. And now it's like, okay, this is no
coincidence. So I say, Hey, are you sending the right idea over?
And Roy goes into Yeah, man, that looks good. When you're
talking about that Hollywood boy. Hollywood boy, step back
Hollywood, Hollywood,
talking about gamers do
their work, looked at the code man's good. And luckily, he
asked someone with actual knowledge to take a look and
comes back. Oh, we were sending our internal episode ID or
supply or something that changed regularly. So we fixed it hasn't
been updated yet. But fixed.
Just pour, pour yourself a drink? Roy?
I felt really good about it.
No, no, that was great. Because I was thinking that it was some
like, I forgot, I was thinking there was some sort of like,
type issue with the title of the episode or something like that.
No, you went all the way. You know that. That? So there's been
a lot of discussion about cross app comments, and like, where
things are, where it's going? I mean, we knew from the beginning
that this was clearly going to be the hardest, the hardest one
of all. And, I mean, for various reasons, most of them, most of
which are actually not technical. Correct. There are
technical reasons. I mean, you know, activity province. And
activity Pub is not as simple protocol. It's not super easy,
like some others are. So there's a little bit of complexity to
it, but then you add on the complexity of moderation and,
and the political side of things. And I mean, it's just
not an easy thing to do and trying to get adoption. So like,
I think one, you know, Alex texted me last week, after the
show. And he made a point, he said, you know, he said, What
y'all miss, y'all missed the fact that this is a whole new
class of user, the whole new class of podcast listener that
we're talking about here. So and I think, and I agree with him, I
agree with what he said. He, you know, I think what he's what
he's saying here is that, where we may not be talking about, but
when I think podcast listener, I think of myself. You know,
that's just the so the selfishness of human nature, I
think of, you know, it's the only thing I know, I'm a podcast
listener. So I envisioned myself multiplied millions of times,
and that's what podcast listeners are. But that's,
that's, that's blind, that's being blind. Because it's
probably, you know, there's all various kinds of podcast
listeners, I hear some shows, and somebody talks about how
they listen to podcasts. And I'm like, Oh, well, that's, that's
odd. That's not anything like I do it. And so I wonder, you
know, I think what I think the point Alex was trying to make
was that there's a different class of, of listener out there
we know that this class of, of, of listener or viewer or
whatever you want to call it exists, because they are their
own YouTube, Twitch, others or their services. because, as you
made the point, James, in your GitHub post, you can just look
at our YouTube live stream. And there's tons of comments. And
I'm not talking about the live chat, the Super Chat. There's
comments. Yeah, the chat exists. And then there's also lots and
lots of comments. So whoever that person is, that class of
person that likes to leave comments on the videos, or, you
know, that's the person that can grow podcasting by us bringing
them into, we can we can get that person over into
podcasting. 2.0, as you know, with those features, because
there's something they're clearly addicted to something
about commenting. And the funny thing is, you know, I don't know
what how much moderation plays a role in this. But a lot of
times, you know, you see a comment you, you go to a YouTube
video, in the car, the top comments, they're pretty funny.
I mean, like, you scroll through the first two or three, they're
pretty good. And I'm sure there's a lot of moderation
that's happening there. But I don't know, I think that's just
a good point to think of is that maybe we're not talking about
taking existing podcast listeners and turning them into
commenters. But bringing in a new class of user
you're so I agree with a couple things. One. That's called a
cheap two gram. Yeah, just because you don't want to pay
for a boost. Alex doesn't mean that, you know, back channeling
you just out of cheapness. There's, there's another thing
to consider. App developers have their own view of this. This is
my app. And I have comments on my app and how they're not
necessarily I'm not accusing it's not an accusation. In fact,
it's, it's very understandable. Unfortunately, the the guy who
was the greatest example of that isn't really with us anymore.
He's not dead. But Martin from pod friend, he was very clear
like, no, no, I don't if I'm going to comments in my app, I
want comments everywhere on every single podcast. And he saw
it from that vantage point, which I also understand. To me,
personally, and I want to make sure we didn't lose anything in
the translation, James. I didn't say I'm giving up on cross out
comments. I said, I'm tired of asking for it. I don't see the
momentum. And as we say, in the business, you can't beat a
number one hit out of wax. You know, if something doesn't
catch, I'm trained to pull back and move on to something else.
And if you see something that catches, then I'm always
interested in it. Now. That doesn't mean that lightning
comments are crossed up comments. I'm just saying,
Here's what I'm seeing that's working. Here's what's enjoyable
to me. And the third thing I'll say, and I'll shut up is that my
listeners know agenda listeners already are in a mastodon
community, we have limited the mastodon to 10,000 users. But of
course, there's 1000s More who follow and interact with us
across the fediverse. I set up the comments thread, people use
it, you go to an app that shows it i pod verse, and you can see
it. The complaints there are, it's not underneath the episode,
the way they are on a YouTube video, there are three swipes to
the left in and you can't interact immediately. Because I
think I have part of that new listener. So my frustration is I
can't get the last twos. I've got the threads. I've got people
interacting. I've got everybody read it, read it. I've got
people using the app to listen to the to lit. Give me that last
bit. You know, it's like, just like the booster Graham. And
that's comes back to your YouTube comment, or Alex's
YouTube comment. I gotta be looking at something. Maybe I'm
looking at the interface. I'm looking at the album art. I'm
looking at the play button. I'm looking at the slider. And
that's where I got to do my comments, not three, four swipes
left or right. It's all about UX in my mind.
No, no, no, no, no developer
response.
I'm processing because your what's your your your is
interesting, because I didn't realize that your see it sounds
like what you're saying is that your frustration comes from the
fact that you're almost there. But you're not you can't get
over the last two.
Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes, exactly.
It's an heiress lesson is that we'll see this goes back to our
discussion before about, I think every time we discuss this,
it's,
we get better. We get better, we get better. Right?
But you know, and so, because it goes back to our discussion from
a few weeks ago where we were talking about visibility, and
the problem is that the problem is there's a Okay, let's just
take activity pub for a second. Activity pub. Most people's
interaction with activity Pub is going to happen in a mastodon
client. We've just got to be honest about that. That's what's
going to happen. It's mastodon. It's very it's happening. It is
happening. It's done. So the, that's what they that's where
they're commenting at. That's very disconnected from the
podcast app. So, the, the, it seems like what we need to
bridge that together. So that is, the reality of the situation
is that if I comment in Mastodon, it will show up in pod
verse. And if pod verse supported, you know, posting
comments back, it would vice versa, and vice versa, it would
show up in Mastodon, but people don't people don't know that.
Well. There's no sense of continuity there.
Yeah, but also, thank you for starting it off by looking at
the stats, I hadn't even realized it. No one knew about
pod verse lit until I told them. And I told them, and I kept
telling them, I kept telling them, I think if, and this is a
gentleman, James, if he's still awake, the general idea that all
of these things should show up in the same place. So I feel is
just as valid to have booster Graham show up. Maybe it shows
up as a boost bot or whatever in the in the thread in the in the
activity pub thread. That's like the chat room that you know, and
I didn't hook all this up, I don't know why it works.
Magically, this shit works, I got boost bots, all kinds of
stuff happening, that and so have that incorporated, and
maybe even. And this I think is something Alex has been
championing for separate the payment from the message if if
appropriate, where you may be doing an activity pub comment.
Maybe you want to add a boost to that?
Yeah, okay. Yeah,
we talked about once before the the the activity that the
booster grams go, they start the thread, you know, that, that's
probably where this needs to go is that the booster grams. As
they're happening, they get crossed, posted over to the root
positivity pub, which is a great idea. I'm gonna build that
gem, the pod sage gets a soldering iron. James, please
jump in, because you're very opinionated. And I appreciate
your thoughts on this.
I. So one thing that worries me is having three separate places
to chat and to comment, and to leave messages that are intended
to be public messages. So it really worries me that we've got
a thing called booster grams over here. And then a thing
called Activity Powerball across that comments or whatever that
thing is going to work. And then we start talking about noster.
And then we and then we have a, you know, an IRC chat room as
well. All of my experience in community shows that you need a
nobody goes into this is going to be a very English saying that
nobody goes in, nobody goes into an empty pub, right? You always
want you always want to be going in somewhere where there are
other people already there. And so therefore making something
you know, sharding, your comments into three or four
separate lists is just difficult. So it'd be really
good to see a booster ground, for example, automatically
appear in the activity pub. And that's social proof showing that
oh, so and so has just given 100,000 SATs. That's that's a
great thing. Maybe I should be doing that. So you've got that
that kind of side of it. The other the other thing I would
say is that activity pub. Yes, it's a really complicated. It's
a really complicated protocol to use and everything else. But
actually, we don't need to, we genuinely do not need to care
about that. All that the podcast app developer needs to care
about is the mastodon API, because of the mastodon API is
supported by other fediverse protocols. Yeah, and so all you
have to have in your app is you have to have the correct Oh auth
once so that you're signing into your into your your activity pub
account. Once you have done that once and that's a hurdle to get
through but once you've done that once then you can post
under your own activity pub account. It occurs to me that if
you are you know if your fountain which I'm an advisor
for but also you know, pot verse or any any of those other any of
that as other people, it occurs to me that if you do not have an
activity pub account, then fountain or whoever, you know,
it's not expensive to run an activity pub server. Mastodon
server literally, yeah, Mastodon server? Yeah, it's not, it's not
massively expensive to end up doing that you could do that
under the hood, you probably don't even need to tell people
where it is. But you could actually do that under the hood
and, and abstract all of that complicated stuff away so that
you end up with something which is, you know, which just which
just works.
So, are you saying, sorry? Are you saying that? And by the way,
you only have to disclose it once per show? Are you saying
that the idea is to have everything flow into activity
pub slash Mastodon for the mastodon API, everything flows,
everything flows into the root post and what the apps are
showing, ultimately, is the activity pub output.
I think that's certainly one way of doing it. Yeah, yeah. And I
think if you were to do that, then everything remains open,
everything remains decentralized. Everything is, is
there. And and that's a slight change to how histograms have
worked in the past Mr. Graham's have kind of been kind of quasi
private, yes, I'm sending a booster gram in because you
might read it out. But they're also you don't have to read it
out, then there might be a private thing. And I think we
just need to, you know, make that a little bit more obvious
in the UI. But I think, again, a quite a lot of this comes back
to the UI. And what what you were saying earlier, Adam, quite
a lot of the issues that you have with cross out comments at
the moment, are actually not technical issues at all grade
their issues around their issues around, it's really hard to find
the cross comments in a typical podcast app. And it would be
great if there was a way of doing that more, you know,
simply the other boat. But by the way, just the other. The
other thing I was just going to say is the pod friend comment
about I want all podcasts on my system to have comments,
completely agree with that. And if you have a look at good
ponds, which is a podcast app, which is wishes out there, they
already have comments for every single podcast out there. The
concern is, I have no idea whether anybody's commenting on
any of the stuff I do. And and I'm not necessarily because I
don't use the app, I'm not necessarily going to go and have
a look at that app all the time. If there was a way for those
comments to be, instead of just within that garden, yeah, to be
federated out. And that might be floated out using a good pods.
Mustard on server? I don't know. But that seems to me to be the
most the most sensible plan.
I think that the good pods example is perfect. Is very
analogous to YouTube, because who owns your audience? Good
pots, who owns your audience? YouTube? What Why are people
using youtube comments is right there in your face. It's right
there in your face. Yeah, your comments right there. And you
can read them while you're watching. And or listening. It's
just a UX thing. It and I agree that what you and I think what
you're saying is you log into your instance once, and then
you're always able to comment in in any any of the threads
because you know, it's activity pop, because you don't
know exactly, yeah. And if you if you do it that way, if you
log in, it takes burden off the app for there, the app isn't
having to moderate, the app is not having to run and run an
activity pub system, the apps not having to do the back end of
the app stays the same. And what you're doing is just you're
putting, if I have to if if if in order to comment, I have to
log in to my activity to my Mastodon remarkable Roma, or
whatever this is, if I have to log into the thing that I'm
already posting with and interacting with, then the owner
of that instance, the existing moderation that happens on the
instance is in charge, the app doesn't have to take
responsibility for the moderation of anything.
Unless Unless Unless do this the other the other way if I'm a
brand new user and a brand new user to you know who whoever it
might be fountain or good pods or whatever. Then actually the
the the de facto is that as I sign in to the app, it
automatically builds behind the scenes it automatically makes an
activity pub account for me on their own Mastodon server. So
they're not having to sign into any of this now you can go in in
the in the advanced settings and sign into my own activity pub
stuff in the future. That's fine. But I think actually just
make it really simple so that when you if I've, if I've signed
into fountain or signed into and I don't speak on their behalf
Obviously, but if I've signed into, you know, good pods, then
it's automatically built something in the back end
because all of those API's are available. It's just, it's just,
you know, having to have a, you know, a mastodon server or
something similar or a Roma server hidden away. There for
those users that don't already have one. I think I think it's a
really simple in inverted commas, simple mechanism. And if
there's a way of tying in a booster Graham so that instead
of sending the message in the booster gram, you send the
message on the activity pub, and you send a pointer in the
booster gram message that then gets rid of the length issues
that we've got with booster grams. It gets rid of, you know,
it gets rid of an awful lot of the issues of having two
separate commenting systems that are apart. And you pull
everything back to the activity pub, where those are all
federated. And where you go,
was that something Alex was was evangelizing for Dave to
separate the two out or am I
misunderstood? Yeah, yeah, that's Yeah, that's right. And
he built?
He built a whole spec for it, didn't they? Yeah, the JpT. Of
course, yeah. Yeah. So that that's, yeah, I think that's a
good way to go. And the reason I say I'll just I'll build it is
because I think it's, it sounds fairly simple to do. And it
would give it visibility, which I just think that's the biggest,
that's the that is the stumbling block. That's the suffering
point right now is, is the visibility. And so anything that
can be done, to put it in front of people to make it more
visible, I mean, hell, I'll put it on the website. I mean, you
know, we can put surfaces governments can already. Yeah,
there you
go. There you go. Now, I used to put for a while I was putting
booster ground comments that I was getting, from the pod News
Daily, on to the pond news website, which I was able to do,
through through something that Oscar was doing at the time. And
that again, you know, it's really good. It's really helpful
social proof, showing that other people are leaving comments
showing that other people, you know, what, what other people
are leaving what other people are saying, super useful. And I
think, you know, again, this does come back to, if you're a
podcaster, then it's actually quite lonely. Because you don't
hear from your audience. You don't see your audience. You
don't have any clue other than having a look at some op three
stats, whether or not anybody's actually having a listen. But as
soon as you start getting the comments in as soon as you start
seeing that community, all of a sudden, wow, this is such an
exciting thing. This
is the kind of information and feedback that a host like
Buzzsprout should be sponsoring your show for
I think they're gonna sign it's just that they've not sent the
paperwork.
I'm just I'm just trying to help anybody raise money anybody any
Thank you.
Any stats or put stats are a poor substitute for that.
But that's, you know, if you Yeah,
exactly it if you
ask anybody what why do you like this host they got great stats.
It's not because of the stats because what do you get a number
and oh, I pitch someone in Lithuania. I mean, that's pretty
much the idea but that's it's not about the numbers it's about
the love the feedback that you're not really getting it's
it's fake almost it's it's an aggregation. It's not that one
to one. It's not that community which podcasting is so good at
turns out
the only thing wrong with that is there's not really anybody in
Lithuania.
Lithuania and what are you talking about? Yeah, but
she's here. She's not there. Oh, that's right. The one Lithuanian
is here. You're right. Yes. Like people from Vermont don't exist.
She's
a backup Russian basically think of the bat. Now, James brought
up Nastar. I just wanted to say something not about noster
specifically, but about the concept of these types of peer
to peer systems, storage systems, you know, IPFS and you
know, there's a whole bunch of different things that are out
there that we've talked about many times. And I had an
experience or Christopher Eisenstein and I had an
experience which was very telling and I want to share
that. So Christopher who was the the OPML RSS feed hound, what
was his nickname? Sweetest the sweetest tricolor sweetest
trick? So he's gotten that into his into his craw with you, I
think you're conspiring with him to rebuild the entire entire
entire daily source code archive feed, he's looking for images,
he's gonna do a complete 2.0 I mean, the whole works. And for a
whole number of reasons. I don't have an archive of all these
shows. And he finds one single bit torrent Sync Node still
running. And I used to publish my DSC at a certain point all on
BT sync, if anybody can remember it. I remember that. Yeah. And
Bt sync also had this promise that they would be able to you
be able to do live, live streaming and everyone, it would
be shared bandwidth. You wouldn't need a server and then
I think they pivoted got acquired or something happened.
But the fact that, oh, my goodness, how many years is it
now? I don't know, when I when I did the last daily source code.
In fact, 10 years that they're all
still available, despite domain name changes company going out
of business being sold. No idea, no two divorces, three
marriages. And there's one lone person still running a BT Sync
Node with those archives that says something about these
systems that cannot be discounted.
That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good but I mean,
that's, that's the promise of
it's true. came true for me came true for me.
Yeah, that's, that's the that's the thing about? Yeah, it's
funny that you went into that through the noster. Portal,
because that's, you know, our thought and thought portal,
because that's the idea with even more so with the DHT space
with IPFS. And those kinds of things that once it's there,
it's there. Like it's not, it's almost like becomes just like
background radiation.
Low Level radiation. Yeah. But the Geiger counters go. It's,
it's, it is it's truly out there. You can live forever.
Basically. i It's something really to be thought about, you
know, you have a unique identifier to get something. And
Bt sync isn't even that great as in my opinion as a decentralized
system.
But resilient resilio I think is what they change. They're that
companies that switched. I think that's their name now. Because
they went into like a they tried to compete with like Dropbox.
Oh,
yeah, exactly. They got money into the Oh, we got to make some
money. And Dropbox is doing good. Let's do that.
Yeah, well, I mean, I think I think when it comes to growth,
so this, this new class of user, they were talking about that,
that loves come in, and maybe maybe new is not the right term,
this different class of user that's been underrepresented in
traditional podcast hubs. They, it's the idea of growing,
growing podcasting with that with that user base, as refugees
are, that's probably not a not a right term either. But when
we've sort of seen that like, like, we saw that with Twitter,
I mean, all these tweets, all the sudden Twitter, people
people poured out of Twitter into Mastodon,
which I've always said, it can happen, it happens all the time.
Yeah,
they just they just, there's this been this huge migration,
you know, of people away from Twitter into Mastodon away from
a closed ecosystem into an open federated system. The same thing
can also happen from closed ecosystems like YouTube and
Twitch over to podcasting. If we build the vision correctly, that
was the vision that we laid out, you know, like a Podcast
Movement in our talks that for people,
not enough people came to the talk. Yeah, cuz they're all at
lunch. It was all our fans
singing to the choir, but like that was the vision was that
okay? Imagine? Imagine a real night. Yes. Imagine a world
where there's global notifications that go out in
real time about podcasts that go live. And then you know, and
then you have live streams, and then you have chat, and then you
have comments. And then you have payments, like a mat. That is
that is the Twitch YouTube experience. And it can exist in
a podcast app. Like, and it's not silly or pie in the sky to
think of it because we just saw it happen with Twitter. Yeah,
exactly. Just so everybody bail,
but we saw it happen with MySpace we saw we've seen it
happen with so many things, geo cities. I mean, look, but I
think AOL first time
but Adam, I think this is the first time it's happened where
they've bailed not to another closed system but to openness.
Usually they bail out of openness closes
the funny thing is they don't really realize what they've
built into I mean, when you see stories like CEO of Mastodon
declined investment lines investment, CEO
reporting just appalling, hasnat and just really bad. But yeah, I
mean, to me, you've got a lot of a lot of very light podcast
users who are using YouTube to listen to podcasts who are using
Spotify to listen to podcasts, that's where the light podcast
users are the heavy ones are using more bespoke ads, more
bespoke apps, they're using Apple podcasts, if if they have
an Apple device, they're using other, you know, like, overcast
and Pocket Casts and all that kind of stuff and, and where the
growth I think, is, is taking those occasional podcast
listeners who are still there on YouTube and on Spotify, and
pulling them over to an open app, which has much better stuff
in there. And I'll tell you why. If we can get cross out comments
are working well, before Spotify puts it in their in their own
app, then you know, you can you can well see that that is going
to be one reason why people will want to make that particular
switch.
And when I pitched a Joe Rogan to come to podcasting 2.0 At the
end of this end of his contract, I'd love to be able to Pat
pitch, the fact that your comments will be back man, and
you'll have control of them,
though Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. When he joins a cast
or whatever it is, he's going to cost one.
I'm sorry to report I'm scheduled to appear in January
and Jameson, I'm going back into the into the horrible horrible
confines of Rogan. But I shall I shall promote our shit, brother.
I'll tell you that. Excellent.
That's, that's funny that I wonder. It was so you know,
somebody like, it's,
you don't need yourself. You don't need somebody. I'm just
gonna say right now. If that's what you're gonna say, a lot of
people say, We just gotta Rogan. It'll be all over now. No, no,
that's what you needed was an Elon Musk, the fuckup. Twitter.
There was no big name that went to Macedon. Pay attention.
Right?
Right. What Yeah, what doesn't say is like, I wonder if a
person like, I wonder if a person like Rogan. Like the
problem is you we can't. Okay, I guess I'm what I'm trying to do
is still flesh out the vision there. Because the vision is to
get to these these other users. Let me let me attack this in a
different way. I'm not came out of the wrong direction. You're
the pot, the when you think of podcast listeners, you think of
a certain type of person. You know, you can kind of see them
in your head. And it's, it's somebody that's not just the
average person walking down the street. Like, there's still this
sort of box that you put podcast listeners into where they're, I
don't want to say geeky, but they're sort of geeked out about
what a podcast is. It's like people have to be into
podcasting, to listen to podcasts. And that's not it's
sort of like people who are into audio books or audio book people
in like you in order. There's a there's a chance here to grow
that to grow podcasting. I think in order to get the YouTube
people in order to get radio people over to podcast apps, you
have to make it less podcast D. I guess that's what I'm trying
to say is the podcast app itself has to be less, less rageous.
Yeah, what a podcast listener is supposed to be
or what a podcast listening experience app is supposed to
be. Have. I not said this from day one. Right? Like, that's why
I would appreciate roofie shit. Like, what is it? What is open
windows everywhere, but it's different.
There's a guy at work in our office that listens to he's just
subscribed to Sirius XM. And he listens to it in his car, and
then he listens to it on their streaming thing at his desk
while he's working. And like that guy could listen to pie. He
could listen in a podcast app if the content was there. And if
the interface was such that it looked like a normal player
experience like if I guess what I'm saying is this the content
was presented through the app like oh, here's some light
here's live content here's like, country music. Here's under
retro here's you know talk radio. Here's this here's here's
some fun oh yeah, here's here's something different
a news Dave you've just invented the I heart app and many
congratulations for that but that's but that's exactly what
the big radio groups are doing. They are merging live radio so I
heart is like this Odyssey is like this radio.com up sale by
the way in case anybody wants those
guys need money so bad they're so bad for them. That's hard. I
know exactly. Don't worry investors will be able to Don't
worry guys, we'll be able to cover payroll this month. We're
selling radio.com Yeah, but
the problem is you can't Yes, that's I hurt but you can't but
they they don't make any money off. I mean, like they're not
that's this does not
Read that I mean, they do make some money, but they don't make
a very much I think in total all of our hearts podcasting stuff
was about 6% of their of their revenue last quarter
of their expense loss.
Quite possibly, quite possibly. But I think but you know, there
is there is certainly, you know, the big radio groups and the BBC
sounds is the same. NPR one to an extent is the same. At the
ABC listen app here in Australia. All of these apps
emerging, emerging the live and the on demand and the on demand
music and the on demand audio, I'm not necessarily sure that
that is the problem. I think the problem is more, you know, I
have just refilled my my fountain app, just just in case,
Adam mentions the 100,000. And, and I was and I was in there
going, Oh, God, how do I do this? Again? What were What am
I, you know, I need to copy this, this invoice over on to
Google notes so that I can then open it on my, on my laptop. So
you've got a crazy way of doing it. I don't know what
he's actually saying, how on earth do I get all of this
stuff? But anyway, and I think a lot of this comes down to user
interface. I mean, it's what Adam was saying earlier about
wanting to make the comments, you know, visible as soon as
you're having a listen, a lot of this comes down to user
interface. And I'm afraid, you know, as as I know, because I'm
I'm good, I think at the coding up a website, but I'm not very
good at the IA I'm not very good at the you know, the user
interface of actually, you know, does this look pretty enough?
Does it work? Yes. Does does this look pretty off now? And I
think that's probably where we've got to, we've got
David interface King, baby,
yeah, you are master.
But I do I mean, but I do have to say, you know, the super
Sukra op three pages that we've seen, but we can't, that we
can't talk about. One of the things just to break through
those rules and say is that it looks beautiful. And John has
spent a long, long time making sure that every single pixel is
right on that page and the graphs working exactly the way
that you expect and everything else. But
it's easy when you're a billionaire, and you can do that
24 hours a day. I mean, that's Yeah, but I think you make a
really good point. We're at the UI UX level now with our issues.
And considering where we're coming from and of course I hear
you with the with the filling up the wallets, etc. My wife Tina
and I we do a podcast only ever submitted to the index. We don't
accept Paypal, we and we begged people we try and help them we
answer emails Instagrams personally, just to get because
people really want to, they really want to give them they
really want to support the show, they really want to do what they
want to get into the SAS. And it's a lot of them are older 250
Plus, and they're fallen off the off the ledge and everything. So
it is purely UI UX stuff. And we're gonna get there because
I've seen the improvements every single time. And I'll say that
we have so many beautiful pieces. If you look at all the
different apps, like you know, my go to web app is still curio
casters fast, like boom, I can get shit done and does
everything I want to do. Doesn't doesn't download. So there's
other issues I have, but that's just of the nature of what it
is. I look at fountain, I'm not an advisor, but man, they are
killing it killing it on the marketing. They're just they're
giving you shit to share. It's like I'm proud of the money I
gave away. I want to share this image. I'm pissed off that the
first image was an old account, I want to show more money that I
gave away. And and this is another element that you know,
not everyone gets it. Everybody has a great piece they're doing
and I encourage all developers look at look at everyone else.
Look at what they're doing and there's so much to be learned
from each other. And then ultimately coming back to you
Dave Hell yeah, some some new experience. I mean, I you know,
once we start to tie we can really tie remote item and
everything together. And I can play a song that someone has not
not licensed to ASCAP BMI, but they're 2.0 and and then you
know, someone can listen to that the SATs flow to them
automatically when they're listening to my show. They can
click and then there's the guys or gals whole album. I mean,
this is these are dreams that I have?
Yeah, I think there's I think it's just one of those.
We have the blocks. We have all the pieces. Yeah. And
yeah, I think we've got the pieces. We've got the stuff to
put these things together and by and and, you know, I mean,
Farrington has just released some incredible data about the
growth of the amount of value for value podcasts, for example,
which I don't know anything about in 10,600 podcasts using
value for value out there. We knew that that's that's our
stats grown. That's grown as grown from zero to 1000. At the
beginning of this year, so more than 6.7 million transactions on
fountain this year. 2.1 bitcoins sent to podcasters. On found
Wow. Wow.
30 is $35,000. James.
Yeah. 3 million. It's 3 million next year. 3 million. Yeah,
that's right.
Yes. 77,000 boosts sent on fountain I mean, you've got
these all of these numbers, which you guys are so
responsible for. And you know, you should be you should really
look back at 2022 as the year were from really turned a
corner.
excellent segue, James. Thank you. I appreciate that. Tony.
Tell us more about the past year. James. I know you've
thought about you're not even doing your own show. You're on
vacation. You took a break. You're on you're on what do they
call it a hiatus?
Well, podcast, podcast weekly. Yes. This has taken a two week
holiday because you know, we've got lives doing?
How far did you have to dig into Google News this week to find
any new story about podcasts?
I tell you one of the biggest mistakes that I made when I made
the pod news website six or so years ago, when I built that
that thing, I built the classified ads system, and the
classified ad system has, it will sell you ads on Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. It has no concept of
you know, Christmas Day Independence Day, it's got no
concept of any locale, any public holidays whatsoever. And
so therefore, I have to publish every single day. It makes it
easier to sell advertising that way. And that kind of makes
sense. But and so therefore for the last week, man, it's been,
you know, desperately going through games. Anything
mentioned podcasting.
Where am I gonna get I did have a comment on one of your artwork
on one of your stories from today. Oh, here we go. No, no, I
just want to make sure you understood because I thought it
was a bigger story than maybe you realized. Live one.
Podcasting is yes. Separating from Radio One. So I looked at
the story and of course the customer on Yeah, yes, a podcast
one and I I subscribe to the newsletter and I click through
they filed an S one. That's not just spinning out. That's that's
filing to go public. Yeah, very. And you said you know,
potentially, but I mean, when you file an S one, you've
already hired lawyers. They've been up your ass for six months.
This is much more than just hey, we're spinning out it's a big
deal. Are they insane? Do you think that they can actually
take this
spinning out? Are they spinning off is what I'm
well out of control?
I think so when you when you have look at this I think that
podcast one is all of the all of the good stories are still
around podcasting, even even talking about you know, a
potential recession and all of that all of the good stories are
still about podcasting. Their filing is a great read if you
are interested in raising money through podcasting they're
finding is a great read because it has loads of really good very
positive stuff. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So my and when you
have look at live ones alive one is a business which owns podcast
one right now. It's a it's an events, business events have
been having a really rocky time over the last three years,
partially because of COVID. But also because you know, the world
The world is changing as well
master bullshit, all kinds of Yes. So you
know, from live one's point of view live one is not a great
business. And live one hasn't been a great business for the
last for the last two or three years or so. Podcast one,
though. Fantastic. And so my suspicion is that they're doing
what I heart has done, and they're splitting this company
into two, they're splitting the company into the exciting bit
that we can talk about a lot that we can, that we can earn
lots of money out of and the and the bit that we aren't earning
very much money out of and at some point we might sell off. So
let's talk about that.
So what do they I have not read the last one except for the
marketing but what do they believe that's the only thing
that's important? What do they believe and all the rest is if
We fuck up. It's not our fault. You can't sue us. What did they
believe the TAM is? What is the total addressable market? They
believe because if they're going public, and they're talking
about 6 million shares, I haven't looked at the
capitalization. But the company itself will be worth more than
all the advertising, no doubt, it'll be valued at more than a
billion dollars. Otherwise, you're not going public at all
these days. How does that square with the so called $1 billion
industry that podcasting is which as you know, I'm very
skeptical of
yeah, very skeptical of and the current figure, by the way, for
2021, not even 2022, which hasn't come out yet. Of course,
it won't be out for another six months or so. But the current
figure is 1.4 billion. But according to the these guys,
according to the IPS guys
did $32 million in 2021 2022,
yes. So podcasts one and three point $32 million in the year
ending March 2022, which was a 36% improvement. They say I
know. But where's the the thought experiment I like to do.
If you made one $1 a second. It will take you 12 days to get to
a million. If you earn $1 a second, it will take you 31
years to get to a billion. So a billion is so far off from this
32 point 3 million. These are one of the biggest players there
is. Where is all the money. I see maybe a couple 100 million.
I just don't see a billion James invested? Well, they're
combining things.
Yeah. So the way that that that 1 billion number and by the way,
that 1 billion number is a US only number. So
that's just America. Oh, yeah. Number one, the American number
one.
So the way I understand that the IBW puts that number together is
that so it? Firstly, it's an estimate. Let's not forget the
fact that it's an estimate, the way that they the way that they
do it is that they talk to all of their members. And they say
how much money have you made? How much do you know about your
competitors in this space? How much money are they making? So
that they can then come up with a total market estimate? Which
is what they do it? And since 2015? What, thank you.
Yes, that mean that guess who did the two biggest players that
have public kind? I mean, Spotify doesn't really break it
out. But we got a pretty good idea. They're losing money. So
I'm just saying where is it? And if it's
because one is is probably in terms of where it lies. I mean,
it's probably 14, it's right, number 14 on pod Tracks list of
top podcast publishers, which means that it's probably about
number 20. So, you know, imagine that
we talked to Jim Dallas over there he for a while he was he
was there as their CTO and he was, you know, loaded. We talked
to Jim Dallas. He maybe it was just me, but we like he was
asking about podcasting. 2.0 tags, and he was going to, you
know, they were going to put some podcasting 2.0 stuff in
their feeds and that kind of thing. It was we had a couple of
good meetings with him. And then he then he bailed and went to
Magellan. Oh, well, that that seemed like a move. That didn't
bode well for podcast one. I mean, I'm just on the I'm just
trying to read tea leaves from the outside here. But I thought
Oh, okay. Well, if somebody if their CTO wants to get out and
go to Magellan Magellan, which is I mean, I have to assume
that's, you know, not is not a vote of Comcast one. Yeah, I
mean, like that. That just didn't seem like a good thing.
Well,
how about this James? I'm curious. Do you have any
visibility you're being the the surprise inside the Trojan horse
of the podcast industrial complex that you are? Do you
have any visibility on subscription revenue for? I
guess, Apple is the main one. Is the Spotify still doing any? I
mean, is there any real money in there?
Spotify? Garbage?
Yeah, I mean, I have asked Spotify it's been a year now
since you launched your your subscription platform, you're
gonna start charging people 5% next year. And so given given
that, you know, I'd love to tell some good news stories about how
your podcasts subscription has been doing, please, you know,
let me know. We'd love to write something about this. And as
usual, wherever you send anything to the Spotify
people here's Okay, here's a good one. Questions. Here's a
question James. Two bitcoins through fountain, how how many
out pot how many compare value for value be Bitcoin Vista grams
to Spotify subscription revenue for podcasting, how much more I
think value for value may have made more money. The Spotify
may well have made more money from Spotify. But having said
that the only money that we're the only data that we've really
got is weirdly from Sweden. And I appreciate that Sweden is
different to the US, but it's okay with me. Stay with me. No,
these are. So this is numbers from the Institute for bad
advertising. I think. I don't speak Swedish. And I forgotten
what the what the figure is an ad research, I think. But
anyway, they they did some research earlier this month. And
they said that Swedish people this year, have spent $14.5
million dollars on podcasts, subscriptions 14.5. And the
podcast ad market in Sweden is worth 34.5 Millions. So if you
were to if you were to turn that into us numbers and BELCAMP.
I don't like you doing this but okay. pressure on me, I don't
like it.
I appreciate that. But but but I'm just I'm just trying to sort
of contextualize it, that that suggests that ad revenue is
about $750 million. And that subscription revenue is about
$300 million. Now, even if those figures are wildly inaccurate,
you can see that there is quite a lot of subscription revenue
there, which I think is which I think is interesting. Now that
may be being driven a little bit by polymer, which is very
successful in some of the Nordic countries, it may be driven by
other paid for podcast platforms that don't exist in North
America. But however it works to see you know, ad revenues, about
750 million and subscription revenue about 300 million.
There's clearly some money happening there. And, you know,
I have always said that the way that podcasting is going to earn
money is going to be a mix of all kinds of things. And it's
not just going to be ad revenue, it's going to be value for
value, it's going to be a subscription service, if you
want to run those. It's going to be a mix of all of those. It's
going to be donations, it's going to be, you know, doing
doing shows in theaters, it's quite a lot of people are doing
all of that kind of is that a good is
doing a show in a theater. Is that still a podcast?
It depends if you record it or not.
Well answered, and if you attach it as an enclosure, correct,
yeah. Well,
Richard herring does a great podcast that he records in front
of a studio audience every week, which is a fantastic thing. So
yeah.
Do you think that they're just capturing that this Swedish
thing is odd? Because do you think they're just capturing a
majority of the Swedish language podcasting market or audio
market? I mean, this this seems oddly high.
Does but I think on the other end, you know, I mean, I mean,
just just having a look through Panyu stories I've covered
around Sweden, there's a company called storytel, which has just
raised a lot of money, and they are an audio book and ebook
subscription service, and maybe they're in that list as well. 30
a studio, which is a company claims to 20,000 subscribers,
and they charge $5 A month 50 Swedish crowns. They just don't
some money. So there's, there's clearly something going on in
Sweden, and I don't think you can necessarily instantly
compare what's going on with what's going
on modern us. But Martin lindskog says, Pardon me is a
Swedish podcast subscription app that has several subscribers,
they started out with True Crime pocket, but the sweetest just
loves. They just love given money to podcasts. I mean,
there's just like the national national pride or something. I
don't know what they
that's the thing. We should all move to Sweden.
Really Stockholm anyway, a car blows up. It's very small
country. They you know, they have so a community that grows
in
Lithuania. I'll tell you. That's right.
But, but for for I mean, Sweden has always embraced podcasting
from early on. I've always had Swedish listeners Always,
always. We have Martin lindskog. We have so many different and
they're and they're into podcasting themselves. It's the
community aspect. somehow because you know, exactly,
it's so dark and we shouldn't forget as well, of course that
people in in those countries speak English just just as well
as they do Swedish. Yeah.
I speak Swedish. So there you go.
Excellent lacquer from, from that, from that point of view,
you know, the Nordic countries are always interesting to peer
into just because they are a little bit different. But I
think, you know, I've I've moderated a couple of sessions
on subscription services. I've had people like, you know,
Donald, that tenderfoot TV, Donald Albright speaking and the
guys from Sony speaking and everything else, and they're,
and they're all saying that they are earning money from
subscriptions. They're possibly not covering all of their costs
yet, because it's still early days, but they are earning
money. And they can also see a real benefit, which is the
benefit from the Apple podcasts benefit of, if you start selling
subscriptions within Apple podcasts, then all of a sudden
Apple podcasts seem very keen to promote you. And they will
promote you all over the app. And from from, you know, talking
to Donald Albright about this, he was pretty candid and saying,
Look, we see this as being something that yes, we're
earning some revenue from, but it's also a marketing cost to us
that actually, we get incredible marketing from Apple podcasts,
because we are selling stuff. And of course, you know, Tim
Apple keeps 30% of everything. So therefore, Tim Apple will be
very, very happy about all of that. Hence why Apple really
ought to be launching a an Android app and I'm still
surprised that they haven't. You'll notice in your in your
inbox. You should see one of those one of those views earlier
on with me sending my money for
Yes, yes, yes. 100,000 SATs from James Cridland. They will do it
Adam. They're not stupid. That's right. You are a baller
baller a man who talks and sends a boost at the same time. That's
a
multi tasking very nice.
So yeah, so maybe that's the thing. But I find I find all of
this fascinating, all of the different ways that people are
making revenue through advertising. And, and also, by
the way, just seeing the amount of podcast hosting companies who
have tried to launch free podcast hosting companies, just
purely powered by advertising and podcast. One was one of
those who launched something I think it was called a launch
pad, wasn't it? I don't. They killed and yeah, and they ended
up killing it because they get the masterwork Lipson killed
there's you make
such a good point, though earlier. Like, this is so cute.
Well, let me get it out first. matter what it is, James has
taken, like, Yeah, you made a good point that clipping that
James Cridland said something brilliant. And and I agree,
hosting companies, this is a great idea, the idea that you
have something that gives your new customer, you know, trial
period, whatever, some joy, even you know what, even if you give
them a value for value set up. And whenever you have a new
podcast launch, you know what, just fire up? Have your team
fire up? An app was in a couple of minutes of it, you know, send
a couple of streaming sites, boom, you've got a customer for
life.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think I think
podcast hosts and I used to be an advisor for a podcast host
and therefore, you know,
millions of loyalty have right
into I've looked into that and a podcast hosting companies, I
always find fascinating because there are so many more things
that they could be doing to basically give their podcast as
a pat on the back and say you're doing a great job keep it up.
And the more that they do that, so when I did the I took Apple's
data for the top podcasts of 2022 according to their slightly
opaque you know, algorithm. And I went through and produced all
of those for every single country, which is available on
the pod news website. And in there you can see where each one
of these shows are hosted by and, and I pointed out to a few
of my friends in the in the podcast hosting industry. I
said, Oh, by the way, have a look at you know where we're
wherever it was Sweden, there are eight podcast, eight
podcasts in the top 10 hosted with your podcast company. You
might want to make a story about or you know, pat, pat him on the
back or whatever it is. I think that there's an awful lot of
opportunity for podcasts come Nice to basically go you're
doing a fantastic job. How can we be helping you more? tired?
Really tired? Tired of
all of that? Yeah. Yeah. But he said, he said on his show that
he did not want a list out there of of his top shows because he
would, he was afraid that that would encourage other Yeah, they
get poached. And like, and that's, that's bothered, that's
bothersome too, because I don't know how, like, it's sort of
like the the reason that colleges universities give
giveaway scholarships, it's like, well, you know, you give a
scholarship is marketing for your university. It's, it's,
it's a cost that you say, Okay, well, we're going to prove we're
going to show look at a look at all his talent with roofing and
we're giving away all this money, but we're only we're
bringing in top the top minds, and you begin to get a
reputation as a, as that's the place to be that you know,
because they they give out they give away scholarships to the
best and the brightest. Like, I would think that the hosting
companies would want to have that. That cachet. You know,
it's a look at these. Yeah, look at these, you know, we have so
much confidence we're willing to show you, you know, these are
our our big names, you know, you can you should come host with us
because look at it, look at all these other great podcasts that
are in the top, you know, top tiers that are hosting with us
as well. I don't I guess I just don't understand the fear there.
Yeah, and I guess also that actually some podcasters don't
want you to know what their numbers are. You know, there's a
reason why podcasts the pocket, the pod news weekly review isn't
in op three. But the pod News Daily is, I don't care how many
people see my figures. For the pod News Daily. I want people to
see all of those figures, pod news weekly review is a
fascinating show. And it's a show that I've really enjoyed
doing. But those but the download numbers are not as high
as you might expect them to be. The fact that the some really
fascinating people listen to that show every single week is
very different from the fact that the actual raw numbers are
not as high as you might you might expect. necessarily want
people seeing those.
But I would say that that's you hit the nail on the head right
there, like the people listen to this show. are highly
intelligent, obviously. self starters motivated. Okay, we
have eight and a half 1000. I'm blown away by that. I wish i i
wish i could find 1000 smart, highly motivated people. So the
people will listen to pod news or pod news weekly review.
ontology, is that going to be very valuable people for some
advertisers? Oh, yeah. So numbers by themselves are just
horseshit. And by the way, I want to do a little exercise
here. Rob Greenlee recently left Libsyn because we were talking
about hosting companies, I have a feeling that a hosting company
will probably probably have to lose one in the downturn. And I
was just looking at Rob Greenlee. I think he may be the
ultimate canary in the coal mine if you look at his career on
LinkedIn.
So like this thought experiment, let's get to 2000
He was the marketing director at shopper box networks. James, do
you know I think they may be gone.
I've never heard of triple bombs.
Then he was director of marketing and business
development, personal design concepts. I don't think they did
very well. Then online media marketing consultant at my talk
radio. Are they still around? Nope. Senior Marketing Manager
at Molo do oh my goodness, they're definitely gone. Then
Zune. Of course, that was a very, that device worked. Then
he was at podcast one. I wish which is now spinning off into
oblivion. Head of Content at Spreaker or Spreaker, I guess is
still popular.
Podcast one is spinning off to be even more successful. I think
Spreaker is pretty good podcast. One
has $35 million in revenue. Come on. Come on. Come on. Stop.
Stop. Just I'm just trying to no no. Head of partnerships. Vox
Vox nest Vox VO X Vox nest. I don't remember what that was.
Yeah.
They are one of the podcast hosting companies that I
own. Okay, so they Okay, so that desperation, by the way. Then
he's VP of Costco. Lipson is next. It's obvious. Lipson is
the next one to go because now he's at pod bean. I haven't
gotten a call from him as a pod pod. Veen SVP of content
partnerships.
Yeah. Where's the wizard? 2.0 stuff, Rob.
He's only been there for a couple of weeks. But I think I
think on the other side, Lipson is a fascinating company who
Have some very strong personalities there. Let's just
say that and I think they've they have, you know that they've
got their plans. And they've got, you know, some quite large,
you know, quite quite big people who are working at that, at that
company. I have always been baffled by that company, I have
to say, and we
have a call with a new guy over there.
Yeah, yeah.
He was real nice if I hadn't been fired yet.
I don't know. Now, we had a great call.
It was good months ago, months ago. Yeah, that's
it, they said that. They said that they're gonna, they're
gonna do some stuff in January.
I'm so tired. Honestly, I love everybody. I really do. Just,
this is kind of good to tell behind the scenes, Dave and I,
we do everything we can for podcasting to point out. And
again, we this is this is our endless meetings. And this is,
this is our love for the medium that we don't get paid for this.
There's really, you know, the deal, we're pretty transparent.
We're very transparent about it. So we had a call with tune in
tune, if I can call and do all the stuff, you know, I was like,
Okay, well, we really can't do anything unless you have
insurance, we get insurance, we get, you know, whatever,
bullshit insurance, it is not that expensive. But we didn't
have any business insurance in case whatever, you will do all
we do all these things, we bend over backwards, and these people
come in and they fucking disappear. Yeah, you never hear
from I mean, we have had so many different things. And we're
literally giving stuff away for free. I've got my partner, Dave
Jones, giving away his time for free helping all these people
out. And these companies, they just can't do it. They can't get
their shit together. I mean, we had a mobile. Are those guys
still around? The? Yes, they Yes, they are so that I won't
slam them because I still have hope for them. What else did he
gonna say Be quiet.
But he takes it, it takes time to get stuff done in larger
companies like yours, yours? Yours? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I
joined the BBC in 2007, they were talking about some
personalized radio project that they were working on. And they
still haven't launched it, but they still keep on announcing it
every every year or so it's Oh, yes, you know, it's coming, it's
gonna be really, really good. And they still haven't launched
it. And I think, you know, as soon as you work with large
companies, it's very, very slow. But I think also on the other
side, people talk to that they'll talk to you, they'll
talk to me, because they've been told to talk to us by someone
else. And they end up and they end up talking to you or talking
to me, and they go great work. Right, we've done that we can
take that off. And now what I won't be hassled by, by this
guy, you know, haven't you? Have you spoken to Adam yet? And I
think a lot of it is, is that as well. But I think you know, it's
worthwhile doing because nine out of 10 of those meetings are
going to be frankly, a waste of time. But one out of 10 of those
meetings are going to be those meetings that move things
forward tremendously fast. Now, it was worthwhile doing that.
Well, the thing is, I don't see any benefit really. These
people, they have nothing but demands, everything's
complicated. Everything has to go through legal. I mean,
really, there's really, it really is a huge pain in the
ass, and nothing comes out of it. It's more of a pain in the
ass for Dave because, you know, he winds up then, you know, they
they said okay, well, we're gonna have to have the IT guy
talked to Dave, and then it just devolved into more bow crap. So
but it reminds me Go ahead.
This is the funny one. So we had a meeting with some guy, and
then he comes back and he's like, Okay, we're gonna need you
to, this is the kind of stuff that happens. He's like, we're
gonna need you to we're going to need a special terms of service
that we're going to we're going to modify, we're going to read
law, read and mark it up, or whatever they call it. We're
going to mark up your terms, your terms of service, send it
back to you, and have you sign. And then like, we were, like, we
were gonna get a special terms of service for this one company,
this one big company to use our API to get podcast data.
Anything that goes wrong, we're fucked.
That's exactly it was like 15 different ways that we're gonna
get sued into oblivion. And I was like, No, I'm not doing
this. Then we went back and forth. And finally, finally,
after like four meetings, it's like four hours of time of time,
away from my day job of trying to help this guy. And I was
like, finally I said, I was like, you know, you don't need
all this because our full database is downloadable on our
homepage. Tableau has downloaded as it is for free. If you go
download it right now, I won't even know. And he was like, he
never thought about it. It's like it never crossed his mind.
This reminds me, I'm old, but this for my, if anyone feels
like it, look up the Danny Kaye movie, a song is born. It's from
1948. And Danny Kaye is a professor at a musical research
institution. It's a whole room full of bachelor professors.
And, and then just in their writing the Encyclopedia of
music. And so this gangster guy has a girlfriend and she's the
nightclub singer, whatever. So So she comes in to Danny case
life, and all of a sudden, he's kind of forced back into the
world. And he's a nightlife. And they've been writing this whole
this whole Encyclopedia of music. And it turns out jazz has
been happening for five years, and they have to throw out the
whole thing. And that's what this reminds me of. These people
are doing, you know, Beethoven and jazz has happened and baby
we're deaf. papapa papapa. We're doing shit. We're running with
scissors, and they're still in the Encyclopedia of of Mozart.
That's, that's what it feels like. And you know what, Dave?
If we had a meeting, and like I'd say no more, just no more.
Tone raker said he has time to require a boost a boost for
Satoshis for a meeting for deposit.
Yeah, imagine imagine getting the purchase orders. The
Purchase Order Form done for that? I mean?
Speaking of let me thank a couple of people who have been
boosting us live very diligently. Cuz we are. What are
we? Oh, my goodness. We're moving up in time here. A lot of
people helping us out for the end of year we have. Let me see
marginally in this call because you already read that. Padme is
a Swedish. He sent us row a Duxton 2222 podcast subscription
app that has several subscribers started out with True Crime
podcast. A small satchel of Richards from tone wrecker. This
is my new satchel of Richards Yeah. 1111 That's a in America
we say bag of dicks. This is nine. Yes. These are the
entrails blueberry needs to see. Okay, then there's your 100,000
SAS James Thank you very much another 9099 from tone raccoon
says appreciate the later live session today. A chance to sit
in the chat Finally, while logged out of work. See this is
this is people love that. There's the net net with 10,000
No DJ, not VJ, PB and J pod boosted jockey. We'll work on
it. net net. Let's see we have brewery 33,333 Next week makes a
promo next week makes 100 Live episodes of BTS in the can going
live with IRC voicemail line is such a killer combo 10 out of 10
would recommend if he don't mind himself. Yes, congratulations on
100 There's Mike Dell with 5555 last boost of 2022 Thank you
very much Mike. Thank you Mike. big help. Another Martin Linda's
called ro ducks, hard to do the multitasking, listened to co
host guests check the SAT kept check the Saturn boosted grants,
IRC chat messages, etc. Yeah, that's what DJs used to do, man
until I'll tell us automated systems came along we had to
queue up records
to the fax machine because that couldn't be in the studio, could
it? Yeah, and we had parts we had cards. All right, we had
to get the next get the next outbreak or if you were doing
split ads, you'd have to get the next two sets of outbreak right?
They all added up to the end you tell the young people of today
and they weren't understand
then there's the hotline oh shit the program directors hotline
and we I said something wrong. We have PC 202 The moon 2023 and
bond beyond says nv 4x 3333 Always boosting us coming in
from curio caster. Let me see we had we already did the blueberry
bong rip. And I think that's it for our pre booths. We
appreciate that very much. Thanks some other people Dave
while we're at this,
yeah, we got to pay pal. We got to pay pals actually.
To pay pals. We have transitioned baby. We are. We
are out.
We got 200 from the boys over at fountain Husker. Give us $200
Thank you, Oscar. Appreciate that.
I think that's
20 blades on the Impala very much.
Did you approve that expense in the advisor meeting?
Now that's not fair. Dave. I already told him I wouldn't. But
I have literally only spoken to them once as an advisor.
But they're not getting their money's worth. I need to work on
that.
And they're not paying me JJ, just to be really clear. They're
not paying me. So
we we need to talk James. I mean, we need to work on your
career. Maybe your agent. I think this I think this you can
take this you can write this up and say look, here's my summary.
I did Some, some work and we've given you lots of great ideas.
Marketing. Totally does.
Mark. James, are you secretly responsible for the marketing
ideas because they're pretty good.
They are really good to know what they're doing. They do know
what they're doing. So yeah, I'm impressed. Very impressed. Good
company. It's great to be involved.
Love, love those guys time to get Oscar back on the show
hadn't had him in forever. I told
him when he has something to release. And when you and then
we'll have him back on God Who
am waiting for live. I'm hoping you still do last soon. That's
what I'm counting on. Thomas, I'm stat, give us $50. And he
says thank you. For cross app comments. Why not use the RSS
tuple? No comments sub element, loading the URL and an inept
browser gives a separation to make app developers feel safe.
1000s of WordPress podcasters already used this sub element go
commenting Thomas Umstead for one
second. That is in the RSS spec, isn't it? Yeah, I think I think
there's a comment tag. Yes, there is a comment tag in the
RSS 2.0. Spec. Yeah. RSS 2.0 adds the capability following an
RSS feed may contain elements and attributes not described on
this page. It has come out as extending the comments RSS
places restrictions on the first non whitespace blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah. There is a Comments field in RSS 2.0.
I don't see it. I'm looking for the see. Comment. Oh, yeah,
they're just common element of item. Yeah, he's not sure. So a
bit on the if present, it is the URL of the comments page for the
item. More about comments here.
That's interesting. How did we miss that?
I don't know. Is it in? He said that it's
even ours? It's in RSS? 2.0. It's in the spec.
But is it? Is it used in the wild?
Of course not. No, no, anything that's useful. We've evangelized
we've we've beat the payment. We've worked on it.
Oh, this is like the source the source tag you know it's a great
idea wonderful idea, but it barely exists in the wild like
we use it for freedom with drilling. That's the first time
I've ever seen it. I don't know this. I mean, it's an
interesting concept. I want to
add something that
was do some research. I'm guessing he's talking about
opening in an iframe or something or a web view. I'm not
I'm not sure what I'll to engage with him on the podcast
industry. Interesting. That we got some Thanks, Thomas.
Appreciate that man. So this gramps Deelen gave us 6500 SAS
the fountain Nene says there's only there's only one real jack
on noster. And he didn't use the hang tin emoji noster is
developing quickly, including a way to verify offside. What he
did was give 14 BTC to one of the devs working on one app,
whose first act was to give half of that to the dev working on
another noster app, which sounds great to me, way too soon to
tell where it's going to go. But that's part of what makes it
feel fun. And
it was it was most definitely Jack Dorsey because I have I
have communications with Jack Dorsey. And from time to time I
say Hey, Jack Dorsey, podcasting. 2.0 And then he
doesn't talk to me for a while.
This is this a trend this happens a lot actually.
I know. Hey, I'm not I'm not bashful. It's like, awesome.
Jack Dorsey's like doing a hang 10 emoji on my nostro accounts.
I'm like, hey, now we know
the only time that's ever worked really well is when we met with
Pocket Cast people and it's like, like, hey, we want to we
want you to do this and this and this and this and they were
like, Yeah, okay.
Right. I did ping Matt but I haven't heard back from him so I
don't know what's going on. Oh, cool. Okay, well cool. He hasn't
answered me not cool.
Well, I mean, it's cool it's it's cool. Did something happen?
Positive we move on
I know I know. We move the needle we move the needle a
little bit. dealin
again, 22 zero dose tu tu tu tu tu fountain he says regarding my
last boost. Okay, that was Jack but my point still stands
I was right it was Jack Exactly. Like you know you don't talk to
jack man. Okay, be amazed. You'd be amazed who I talk to people.
Jean Everett 250,006 o
blades on M power. I
know how much money that is in dollars.
I just love the idea. I don't even know Yeah, Christmas boost
boost boost.
Thank you man. Boost boost.
Can you go is that right?
Can you go? Yeah, all right. Let's say that guy Yeah.
Ad Sales and sets. Mountain. No note.
Holy crap. Nice man. Thank you. Oh, yeah, no,
not even not even a note she stream 10,552 set. Thank you for
sending that Satoshi string because I was afraid you were
dead. We haven't heard from you.
How are those guys? How you doing? How you doing boosters?
How you doing boosters? Hey,
he says congrats on the whole coin node. Oh, thanks.
And how are you guys doing? Should we have those guys on
Have we ever had those guys on?
Yeah, I'm just afraid that he's gonna do some sort of voice
masquerade like you know? Absolutely can't tell who he is?
I don't know he seemed he seems like one of the NEM guys
from the Satoshi streams. Congratulations.
Yeah, and it's a girl. Oh Roy scheinfeld Ah 4321 Hello Roy
from breeze and he says Merry Christmas with cute emojis.
Thank you Roy and
Happy Hanukkah although it's over now but Happy Hanukkah.
Thank you brother 40,000 SAS from ninja mort, nice fountain.
And he says Happy Christmas. Happy Christmas to you. He must.
He must be in the UK
busua Do they say Happy Christmas in the UK? Is that
there's a thing? They don't say Merry Christmas,
James.
Well, you know Happy Christmas you know alcohol and stuff. You
want to steer clear uncle Mary. So
the UK says.
Yeah. I've read my Charles Dickens. I know there's a merry
Christmas. Oh, by
the way. If you read your Charles Dickens, you must see
spirited. It's a it's a redo of the Christmas story. With Will
Ferrell is dynamite. It's a musical. It's it's for the
noose, a new generation of the Scrooge story. It's fantastic.
Of course. I was will ferals warm up man podcast. You were
his fluffer if you remember that was his warm up, man.
Sorry, I missed that one. Did you meet? Did you meet?
No. Of course what was hilarious. What's hilarious is I
was I was the white man. I was standing on stage for about 15
minutes. Warming, warming everybody. Warming warming
warming everybody up and realizing that this was the
first time that I stood on the stage for two and a half years
so no worries. No wonder I was feeling so nervous given the
pandemic and everything. Yeah. And Will Ferrell sort of appears
after me and does his his his shtick and I didn't even see him
so
let's blame
that put it on your CV. That's good.
Oh yeah, we're board board member of the podcast index.
Nuts over esteemed board member board member
some quack sinister road ducks tu tu tu tu in through fountain
he says always enjoyable Happy holidays.
Happy holidays to you.
subservient 10,000 SATs through fountain but no note from
absurdity and in vache VA ke since a 2500 Sats are found but
no note row sticks from George Orwell no note. Oh, Oscar marry
250,000 says
Oh 20 Is blades on the Impala fam
it's eggnog for everybody thank you Oscar. Raise
your glasses Merry Christmas guys been working hard trying to
get found oh point six out before the end of the year. Oh
that's
trying to say something. Yes you can. Do not repeat Oscar do not
release anything on New Year's Eve. You never release before a
holiday Yeah, you'll be up you'll be working in the middle
of the night dealing with all kinds of shit keep it until
January 3 brother.
No change Fridays
No, we've been in the trenches on that.
Merry Christmas guys been working hard trying to get
fountain point six out before the end of the year. Once that's
live we'll definitely take a look at nostra and see if it's
possible to bridge what we've done with boosts.
Oh, good. No, no, no, no. Stop. Just calm. Calm down. Calm down.
No, I think he's talking about over to activity pub.
Still. Calm down. Oh, goodness. Yeah. A lot going on.
smart guys. smart guys.
I'm just I'm just giving my personal opinion. Calm down.
This is
it the nostre thing was like a bomb that went off inside. It's
like, everybody was just like, Okay, we get we're feeling good.
Get this thing and it was like nostril Oh, God. It was like one
more protocol.
Smoking a pancake.
Right. By the way, I will point out that Sam Sethi just boosted
100,000 SATs. No no wager. Now necessary, Happy New Year. And
then of course it's a promotion pod fans in 2023 Yo,
you know, he was afraid that James wouldn't pay so he was he
was given he was given backstop
Hey, is that pod fans live yet?
Nice It was January right I think it's January as a pod
fans.com
I don't know what it I don't know what he's where's that it's
in a top secret look bunker.
Okay, I'm excited.
The audio live
radio.com Alright. That'd be cool
is a surprise. Yeah, he says let's see if it's possible to
bridge bridge what we've done with boosting comments on
fountain to allow to work across app. Amazing gear and excited
for 2023 Go podcasting.
Hold on a second go podcast. So proud of that jingle.
1337 Delete boost from Gene bein. He says I think you all
are wrong about people not wanting comments. I think most
people don't know. It's an option. This could provide. I
think activity pub comments done directly in podcast apps via an
OAuth flow like Mastodon clients would it be welcome Well, that's
James agrees with you that's
what he said. That's right. Who was this?
No that was Jean been a jean
being we're just going to defragment you make sure you're
healthy.
No you don't we're getting rough out there crow knuckle 3333
through fountain no note from Chronicle. See true true grits.
6000 SATs through fountain he says you should have Chris last
from Jupiter broadcasting back on to talk about membership
paywall content in addition to boosts works for his network
also congrats on the full term Bitcoin baby. Yes, we made it
nine months
well this is Alby contracts are working on something like that
we'll see how that works. I'm curious
Yeah, and just if anybody's curious I'm looking at the daily
The Daily Report Yeah, we did we hit one bitcoin on the node and
so and 72% of that is is enchant is active in channels providing
liquidity so Oh yes. Well we could snapshot of where we're at
and we can open more channels people we've got liquidity if
you need if you need liquidity we're happy to own the channel
isn't is opening more channels and actually boosting the size
of existing channels to which you know that's the main thing
Yeah,
we definitely have to do that. We had to we had to scale
up with with with fountain you know recently because they
couldn't get the boost through there was there was no big
enough channel. I fiber citadel. Yep. 1998 says thank you Auburn
Citadel no note. Oh, this is one Auburn Citadel streamers. Double
in a row. Chaos. 99 2200 SATs through fountaining says Enjoy
podcasting. 2.0 a masterclass is the true spirit of agile
delivery. A truly invested product owner in Adam and Dave
representing the product team with first principles and
developing a viable product.
Well, that was I don't know what you said. But I'll give you a
Stanley I'll take
Martin lindskog. Tu tu tu tu tu tu tu Wow, that's 222,220 sets.
20 blades on the Impala.
Oh man. Double eggnog
that's through pod verse. Nice. Cool. Who's coming in through
pod first? Yeah. Adam and Dave, you have the deluxe six Deluxe,
tu tu tu tu tu tu in a row. I look forward to becoming
podcasting. 2.0 certified during 2023 t shirt size medium have a
prosperous New Year Martin lindskog Tea Party media
podcasts.
My husband Martin already hit the threshold for a T
shirt. Oh, yeah, that was it. Let's just hit it. Yeah,
we got to send them that. I love his style, ma'am. He's got a
cool look. He's got a cool look. I like him. But if you're
listening to this podcast, you should it's pretty easy.
Martin send me send me your address email it to me so I know
where to send it. And we'll get you just send
another booster gram with it. I'll be fine. Yeah. I'm still
waiting for my stickers. Todd.
Oh, the toe to toe is This is Todd is
a welfare man. He's welding on the stickers. Yeah, what was a
bill it was like was it 50,000 Why was it for the stickers? I
don't remember. It was a big big number.
I sent him stickers. Because if you sent him stickers then I
would send stickers back.
No, no, no, no, I said so he said for those he said if I sent
it was like some boost amount and he would send stickers and
then I boosted the same amount with my address. Still no
stickers.
Tone records says 55 55 through breeze and he says Sammy Hagar
boost I think that's I think that's right. I think that is
the Sammy Hagar boost.
25,000 sounds from Dobby das at RSS blue.com puter Eason he says
Happy new year starting to celebrate even earlier than
Australians just to send this booster ground. Oh, boost boost
boost. That's right, James. You're you're celebrating New
Year's and what 12 hours from now?
Yes, yes indeed in 13 hours from now. And if you're watching ABC
TV here, then I will be singing Auld Lang sign just after the
fireworks and midnight.
Really? Are you?
Is this a paid game? Along with another 700 people? I will be
singing it.
Where are you in studio? Are you in studio?
We recorded it about two months ago. And we're all taught it's a
it's it's in a pub. And it's all in four part harmony. And yeah,
it's Connect. It's going to be good fun
just to share for a moment. So MTV always used to do this New
Year's Eve big thing. Very much like declerck are now Ryan
Seacrest. And in fact, my first on air appearance and MTV was
1987 Going into 1988 they said okay, Adam, we want you on time
squared and at times square then was dangerous. You could get
killed in Times Square. Now you can be drunk fall down and you
bounce back because it's all rubber. And there's no cars. So
I had a bodyguard with a with a gun. That was really exciting
back then, you know, hundreds of 1000s of my best friends than I
was reporting down there. But then in later years, we would
always have the big New Year's Eve celebration bash with all
these artists, which we'd record in July. And it was I hated
that. It sucks. So bad. So bad. It's so fake. It's so typical
television. It I hate it.
That real real stuff is is a really important thing. Isn't
it? The way
it used to be when we were young James? Oh, yeah. Well, how old
are you? What are you? Are you 50 yet?
I am 51 and i Yes, I'm 51 Yeah, go Yeah.
Dave's the younger in here.
No, I'm a baby. I'm an absolute baby. Yeah, yeah. 46
she
remember 46 Everything was in black and white and it was war
on
the siren keep going off. Jake Jayco jackal stirred Jake. Il
STR okay. I don't know how to pronounce it. 11111 He says a
row dicks to round out the Year. Happy New Year. Sir Jake the
hard gays night.
Sir Jake is he's actually he's a Submariner. Remember, it's not
gay if it's underway, everybody.
717 is a 1770 76 for blueberry. He says Adam, can you rip that
bond for
me? Yeah, we already did that. Yeah. So we're back to the we're
almost at the delimiter
okay, we know we got the deliveries right here. He's
staring me in the face coming. Yes, everybody. 33,015 says he
says Dave. Adam, is the precipice of change looms over
humanity and your contribution is appreciated. Attitudes
formulated now will have long lasting effects on the future of
our species. So prescribe your listeners a hearty meal of the
podcast, AI duck cooking. Stay Ahead of the leaps that
artificial sentience is making infotainment with your enigmatic
narrator, Gregory William Forsythe foreman, yo.
So it's aI dot cooking and I think to round out the year we
should play his custom jingle which I have had it and use for
I would say 16 years 16 Maybe 17 years he's been around a long
time.
Comic Strip, strip, comic strip, comic strip on the Strip, strip,
con extra comic category.
Comic Strip
Thank you comic strip. Monthly. Get another guest Michael
Kimmerer $5.33 Lesley Martin $2, dribs got the Bruce Wayne of
podcasting 2.0 $15 Aaron Renaud $5 and Pedro Gon calvess $5
That's our group.
Thank you all very much value for value. You hear it here.
It's working. It's for the podcast is for the project. You
keep it all moving. You keep it rockin. Yeah, you heard. We have
a full coin. It's on the node. We're providing liquidity hit us
up. We're happy to do it. We love doing it. It's our
retirement project. Please remember us when we're dead. Go
to podcast index.org down at the bottom you gotta you gotta
donate button you can use your fun Fiat fun coupons there. You
can even Oh, I should show going again. I guess you can even send
us a whole Bitcoin if you want on chain there is there's a QR
Code Forge. Oddly enough, no one ever seems to do it. Even though
Hey, man, if you I'll donate if you can put it up put it up in
the Bitcoin. No, it's not true. Let me see the last time we
received anything on through that was August 22, August 26.
So it's been quite a while. No, it's
on fire. Yeah,
it's rocket but get one of those newfangled podcast apps go to
pod news.net/new podcast apps. Yes. Well, plates.
Goodwill work. Yes. Nude podcast app.
Nude podcast. app.com. Yes, correct.
One thing you will never get from this show is this, this
message from Patreon that went out to their customers. We're
happy we're happy to notify you that you have met or are well on
your way to meeting the threshold to receive a 10 99k
form. This is my favorite part of this. This is form 10 99k is
an IRS Form used to report payment card and third party
network transactions in an effort to improve voluntary tax
compliance. Right volunteering is an interesting term we're
going to give your information to the government so that you
can voluntarily
you will obey you will Why was my obey clip
yes it's totally voluntary this is you don't have to
here it is I knew I had you will obey you will obey you will
obey.
Well there's there's a remix as a remix. So
have more tail have more tail have more tail, have more tail,
have more tail have more tail you.
What's your programming for today?
Do you want to read this? This is the board maybe we're doing a
read this on the air real quick this account takedown request
that we got?
Is that something we can discuss? Well,
I would think it was regarding one of the apps it wasn't even
regarding us actually.
Did you read it?
I only quickly I saw the screenshot it looked like they
said, Hey, we have this this link here. Which that's not our
link.
Yeah, but but the website, I mean, the podcast is. So we
basically got to let me see if I can generif Fie this enough that
we get a takedown request for a podcast. And it says this
account is illegally falsifying the identity of fill in the
blank by using its executives name and image in the profile
violating the privacy policy of the client.
I lost I loved the privacy policy of the client, whatever
that is,
it says as well, let me just kind of read through it here.
Because I'm interested to know what which was, take us on this.
It says greetings, we have the authorized representatives of
fill in the blank. And they have brought this URL to our
attention. And it's a link to a podcast app to a certain podcast
on a podcast app that clearly the podcast app uses our data as
the backend. So I'm assuming that that's how they got in
touch with us. It says this account, whatever that means, is
illegally falsifying the identity of fill in the blank by
using its executives name and a image in the profile violating
the privacy policy of the client. The site is falsifying
the identity of our client by podcasting information, which
could impact the brand and reputation. Our client has
requested the removal of these profiles, as it is violating the
company policies and doesn't belong to them. Kindly remove
these profiles on priority.
Now, here's the problem. The email the screenshot you sent me
has a name as our company is at a law firm is as
well, the it's it's a very generic sounding name with no
website, which makes me suspicious. But at the same
time, like what what's the point of this? Like? It doesn't seem
like a phishing type scam unless it's
well it's not it's not coming. I'm just looking at the email
addresses not coming from a from a law firm. No. I and I
generally see this as a big pile of horseshit. If you want to if
you're a lawyer and you're doing a takedown then there's a
there's a procedure for that James, you know,
as a way of doing that, yeah. What
is the procedure?
I filled in yesterday, I filled in a number of DMCA claim
things. Anchor because there are some shows on Anchor called pod
news. And pod news is a registered trademark and I've
spent a lot of money in the US and in Canada for it and no you
don't get to launch Your own podcast called pod news. Thank
you very much. And so yeah, so I was filling in that kind of
information. And that's typically the way but you
obviously need a registered trademark first. We should point
out that this is not this is not fill in the blanks the podcast
from Dr. Phil McGraw. This is a totally separate podcasts that
David's talking about. But yeah, you know, so if you want to, if
you want to protect your stuff, the best way of protecting your
stuff is firstly, not to call it something generic, like let's
talk because there are over 1000 shows called Let's Talk already,
but secondly to to if you can to register that name of your
podcast as a trademark because that then means that there is
law on your side where you can where you can talk to whoever it
might be and say no, it's a registered trademark, here is my
number. And you need to take this, this this this down,
otherwise you will lose in court. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
You know, so that's basically the way and unfortunately, you
know, you do end up seeing people, I mean, any search for,
you know, whether it's cereal, or This American Life, you'll
see a bunch of people who have basically copied that podcast
and put it into their own anchor account so that they can somehow
earn some money out of it. I don't fully understand how that
bit works. Now,
just to be clear, this is the actual podcast of the like,
this, this is the real feed. This is not a clone feed. This
is the actual
is the actual feed, have a really okay, yes, is the real
feed that they're wanting taken down. Because I
got a lawyer, I got a lawyer contact me about six months or
so ago. So pod news itself has a podcast directory in there,
which is powered by both Apple and the podcast index. And I had
someone contact me about six months ago saying the only
people who are allowed to have my clients podcast on Apple
podcasts, you must not be linking to the podcast in any
way shape, or form because it's exclusive to Apple podcasts.
They were hosted on Lipson for a start. So. So already, there's
clearly a problem here because No, it's not actually on Apple
podcasts anyway. But also secondly, I was linking to it. I
was linking to the podcast to the podcasts audio in exactly
the same way as any other podcast app does. But the lawyer
was deeply upset. And so if you search for this particular
podcast now, on the pod news website, I won't tell you the
name of the podcast, then instead of getting the podcast
information, you get a you get an article about what they want
the lawyer asked for and an embed of the apple podcasts
player so that it's directly linking to Apple podcasts, you
can still listen to it on my on my website is just is just an
embed, but you know that that's what they wanted. So hopefully
that that's okay, though. There are a lot of a lot of lawyers
who just simply don't understand the podcast space and don't
understand me and Adam, you must have had this for years and
years and years of dumb lawyers not fully understanding what a
link is, and what, you know, copying content it.
Yes. And I've had many, I've actually been taken to court
over the Lanham acts. And I've, I've taken publications, and one
using Creative Commons copyright. In fact, I was the
first one to prove it in court. In this case, I think we just
need to know that this guy actually represents this
particular client. And if they want that gone fuck him down.
And you know what I liked James's idea was put a copy of
their takedown request as the as the search result. Boom, there
you go. Yeah, there you go. Enjoy that. Because it's a
mainstream show. You know, it's a big mainstream show, and
they've got morons working. So if he can prove that he is truly
a representative, because this is no proof, then that we'll be
happy to take that out. And by the way, we're never going to
let you back in.
Once it's out, its out. Yeah.
There's no, there's no, there's no second chances here. Yeah, I
mean, just looking at this show. It is it is it is from a
mainstream is from a mainstream outfit, but just looking at the
show. I can't I can't imagine more than five people listen to
this thing. Anyway. So surely, it's not that big of a loss.
Gentlemen, we are at two hours in nine minutes. I think we
should wind it down.
Well, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you. Thank you
so much.
I don't want to be the party pooper here, but I'm just I'm
just saying.
I gotta eat some supper and James got to eat brunch.
It's costing nonstop for the last five hours.
Yeah. And I love it. I can't get enough of it. I love podcasts.
That's why Fine. So
thank you for thank you both for everything that you do. You've,
you know, the world, the world is changing, I think away from a
proprietary system into openness again, and I think podcasting
2.0 is a big, big part of that. So, so thank you so much for
doing that. And great success next year. Yeah, you too, James,
I appreciate it. And
I hope you'll don't change the just one name change, right. No
more. No more name changes. You're good. You're sticking
with POD Newsweekly. For a while
now on no, my name changes. It's there. It's there until, yeah,
it's there. Until then, until something bad, something bad
happens. Yes. But I'm sure that that won't happen.
And thank you. Thank you, James. For all the reporting. You do
the one of the few who will constantly report on on what
we're on what is happening at podcasting to point it was
highly appreciated. But you know, but you know, I showed
that I showed that appreciation, look at how many below how many
Satoshis I'm sending you.
I know it's actually that's my retirement fund. It's
exactly. And thank everybody else, all of the board members
who participate, of course, all the developers, everybody who is
participating and that is from people just listening, hanging
on podcast index dot social developers podcasters. Y'all
know who you are. And of course people who are supporting the
project. We really, really appreciate it and Dave, thank
you my brother. Thank you for yet another year. Lots of fun
and poverty. We love it.
Yes. Yes. Fun and poverty. Happy New Year.
Alright, everybody, we will see you next year. That's right.
Which means one week from now we'll be back with another board
meeting for podcasting. 2.0 Have a Happy New Year be safe
everybody bye bye.
You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast
index.com For more information, boost boost