Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting 2.0 For April 7 2023 Episode 128
We're fully fingered. Oh, it's Friday once again hello
everybody welcome to the only executive boardroom that has
IKEA chairs that's right time for podcasting for now when we
break it down the future of podcasting is here we talk about
podcast index.org Of course the namespace and everything
happening at podcast index Doug social I'm Adam Perry here in
the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man
who will filter your Cloudflare tighter than anyone say hello to
my friend on the other end ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jones
Dave Jones: your bro he didn't get distracted by the computer I
was like I just I was waiting for you to fall out and you know
get that because I was like hey, we don't have a chat room we
need to know when to rip is if you got a boost and we're right
in the middle of the intro.
Adam Curry: Everybody starts ripping and boosting. Hey
brother, how you doing Dave?
Dave Jones: Good. Finger free. I'm back.
Adam Curry: Your what finger would you say finger free?
Dave Jones: No, no, I'll see what 10 of those a fever free.
Okay, yeah. Billy fingered and No. in unfavored
Adam Curry: alright show titled fully fingered when you write
that down right away. Okay, I'm liking
Dave Jones: one of our guests today is is also Hi, so
Adam Curry: we'll get to our guests in a moment. First, let
me check in a little bit. I am really excited. I have we are
live by the way. For those who don't know what it is live item
tag we are lit and live. Get one of those swanky modern podcast
apps at podcast app.com The ones that we're currently pod verse
curio Kassar podcast addict love it I hear by the way fountain is
very close.
Dave Jones: To get close to what?
Adam Curry: To lit to implementing lit.
Dave Jones: Oh, where did you hear this? I did not hear this.
Adam Curry: I heard it straight from the horse's mouth I heard
from from Oscar know from an Oscar from I forget his horse.
And this horse knows his brother known as brother his. His
partner. His partner, Mick Yes, thank you. Okay,
Dave Jones: yeah. The horses Oscar though. I mean,
Adam Curry: yeah, apparently, apparently, they're, they're not
far behind.
Dave Jones: What did you say? And when did they say it?
Adam Curry: Well, you said where are you? Well, here's how it
went. So I got a Twitter DM. And I'm I'm not on Twitter that much
anymore. Actually. He's amazing that he got through to me
because I mean, the doge dog is too triggering. Every single
time I see that thing like ah, it's like, I can't look at that.
Also, Have you have you noticed that I don't think you're much
on net vertebrate ever since April 1. And I don't have I've
never had a blue checkmark. And I don't intend to pay for one. I
have like 69,060 60 or 69,000 followers. The engagement has
like gone down by 90%
Dave Jones: because all the bots are not engaging anymore. I
Adam Curry: know I mean, people aren't I don't think people are
seeing me as much I'm not sure exactly what's happening. I
don't really care.
Dave Jones: Have you been when they call that dT d not
filtered? Yeah, like D de emphasize or? I don't know what
the word is for it and I don't know they like what they do
where they used to make you artificially push you down in
the rank Yeah, direct?
Adam Curry: I guess so. I guess I guess without a blue
checkmark. I think I think that's what happens. Shadow
banned. Yeah, that's what I don't think it's really shadow
banned. I think deemphasize is what it is. It's funny because
actually opened up more time in my life for nostre which has
been reasonably interesting because there's no algorithm so
it's a it's a bit like it's a bit like Mastodon you know it's
like there's you know, you're you're you get down to a message
you've read before and you're done you know it's time to do
something else move on there's nothing left to read here. I've
seen it all Yeah, although the mastodon podcast index dot
social. I mean, I appreciate people tagged me and stuff and I
want to be tagged in it but man, what is the deal with
transcripts? What is this argument? What are we what are
we arguing over? I knew worked for two years everything's fine
what is the problem?
Dave Jones: I knew this you know me well enough right? Yes at
about at about post 12 I was like yeah, that and this is
where Adams gonna bring this up.
Adam Curry: What are we doing but I don't understand. Here's
what I think. So someone made a library Steven did crater make
this someone Megalodon Stephen
Dave Jones: crater Yeah. Trent which is great name but
transcript dater Ella was just
Adam Curry: I love it. Yeah, I love it. And I knew that Mitch
is like, Oh, cool. And Mitch was trying to get it to work. And I
follow that I love following that stuff, by the way, like,
oh, man, I'm glad I'm not Mitch. And so I watched
Dave Jones: Mitch implement stuff. I mean, like, within 10
minutes, it's built so yeah, but
Adam Curry: I know he was having some issues. And I love seeing
that that camaraderie that brothership back and forth. And
then all of a sudden, I just see people piling on when I see the
the good old, it's gotta be JSON. Like, oh, where's Daniel
J. Lewis? Okay, he's around here. Then there's like, well,
you know, and usually James curriculum will say I
implemented it in five minutes on my own website, and then it
goes back and forth. And then it's like, should it be 32
words, one word, five words per word. And like, I don't know
what's working for me. The the amount of people who are hard of
hearing and people who speak English as a foreign language
have not complained to me. So what are we doing what's going
on here?
Dave Jones: This all started with Carl Bondo. Ah, yes. Okay.
Okay. Got, he said. He said he just piped in and said, question
about transcripts, have podcasters landed on a final
transcription format for podcasting in the wild as the
podcasters jam SRT, with time codes into their show notes.
While PC people know podcasters use SRT, start at SRT.
Meanwhile, do HTML, JSON, VTT, and text versions have value in
podcasting. Is it being decided for us by big transcript? Or is
this really a UX accessibility issue? That that was what
launched the, you know, six posts of this thread.
Adam Curry: But this carried over from a discussion on GitHub
even because I remember Yes, jumping in that that discussion,
just say, hey, while y'all are arguing, this is what people
will this is the UX people are looking at. And I just posted a
a Tiktok video to show the people who bam bam bam word,
which I find incredibly exciting to do something. Maybe put it
this way. I see. There's a there's got there's a huge
difference between what we use on the back end and what that
does and how and what the user experience experiences. And
imagine my delight my sheer utter delight. When I saw a pod
friend Martin pop up with a completely new concept. It looks
like DeVore i can i where you and I are divorced, cannot we're
having a conversation with little chat bubbles. Whoa, yes,
this is what I'm talking about. That's what I care about.
Dave Jones: That thing was beautiful. That is a killer
interface.
Adam Curry: Yeah. And so I wonder if there's general
confusion between the two in this in this technology back end
conversation? Because I for what I can read. And Macedon doesn't
do threads really great for me for the way my brain works.
There's what I what I can read and understand it seems like
that there is some flow between what's how you know what format
it is, and how that surfaced on the, in the app. And quite
honestly, I find pure closed captions or subtitle formats
pretty boring. Because there's not a there's nothing else going
on on the screen. Now, it's not like you're watching a movie and
you want kind of the subtitles or captions out of the way where
they're easy for you to catch at the bottom of your of your view
and still see everything I mean, that could be hyped up it can be
all kinds of stuff can be done with that.
Dave Jones: I think it comes I think there's two issues here.
Per it's word word for word timestamping versus like per
line which is what it which is the SRT way. So with JSON
transcripts, you can get a timestamp on every single word.
So then then you use it I mean, you can do you can imagine that
made this pass it's the most powerful way to go. Because you
can get down to word level accuracy with clips and stuff.
So this this would really just like D script and these do these
digital audio you know these DAW software's will do the will find
help you clip a clip something or do Dave voice edits with the
transcript as your as your editor. Yeah, by
Adam Curry: the way, that's what pushes way for good old school
waveform What's wrong with you? We use we go ahead,
Dave Jones: you see the matrix we I get you. But like for, but
that that's the Pat light for you can imagine for a phone.
You're gonna get you get a mobile app here and you're gonna
do editing like you're gonna do a clip in a phone. That's PESA
pain in the butt. But if you could clip it based on the, on
the transcript on the words, oh, that would be so much.
Adam Curry: Okay, but we're already now. Okay, so we're
already moving on to something about clipping. And
Dave Jones: but I'm just making a point. Okay, okay, I'm not
moving and I'm moving the conversation, I'm just saying
that like that, that you can see the power of a transcript, word
for word transcript, to let the app know at any moment where the
audio is in sync with the transcript. So that that's like
the most powerful part of it.
Adam Curry: I'm with you. Yes, I'm with you. I got you there.
But of course, no one has that system. But I'm happy to run it
through a a translator. I would say, you know, having multiple
versions, you know, almost like a, like a multiple alternate
enclosures, I think might be a mistake at this point in the
mean. It'd be I mean, if we ever have to output three different
versions, and then have three different MBM, you know what I
mean? Like, there's a lot of stuff that that people want
people to do.
Dave Jones: We'll see that okay. So that's the other that's the
other part of this. That's my job. You have that word for
word, accuracy debate. And so then you're going to have people
fall down on either side of that, that discussion where they
say, Okay, well, why do we need a whole bunch if word for word
is just simply the best? You can always go lower resolution you
can't go higher. And there's another factor in here too. I'm
gonna throw this up. So the, the JSON. The SRT file has been
problematic, especially for the French.
Adam Curry: Stop right there. Who cares if the French Give me
a break?
Dave Jones: How dare you
Adam Curry: take him along with my con.
Dave Jones: Yes. So that the fridge got really pissed. I
mean, Benjamin Bellamy Well, I
Adam Curry: Well, I didn't realize I missed this whole.
What happened? Why what what? Well,
Dave Jones: because because he's upset about the 32 the 32 word
limit. And SRT file and this so so SRT, but,
Adam Curry: but it's not a matter of the language is just a
matter of the French.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, it's a matter I'm using Benjamin as a
stand in for quote, the French.
Adam Curry: I didn't know if it was a language thing. Okay. I
got the friend ever bent out of shape. Basically, that's
basically their culture. Okay.
Dave Jones: Yes. If you know one French guy, you know all Wow.
It's like the it's like the what the reggae.
Adam Curry: crack open a Bud Light. All right. Let's go.
Dave Jones: I love you, Benjamin. But see. So the the
the SRT has a line length? Yeah. And because it stands, it just
does per line. And so Benjamin was saying he doesn't like the
fact that is a 32. word line length, because it doesn't take
advantage doesn't like, take advantage of other languages
with longer, longer work. Your character says more do Yes,
sure. So which is valid, which is valid, and then But then the
app guys came back and they were like, hey, that's fine and all
but we have to be able to fit this thing on the screen, like
one line at a time. And if you have 128 words Ulsan you get you
get this tiny little taste, you can't see it right on the
screen. So the word for word accuracy within the JSON
transcript format, lets you avoid that entire debate. You
just fit as many words as you want.
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, that sounds that sounds reasonable.
Yes.
Dave Jones: So you got two ways in which the JSON file format is
superior. But at the same time, you know, you you have this
other debate, which is getting mixed in which, which is almost
like subtle asides. It's like under the covers here, which is
the should the namespace dictate the format? Or just the
delivery?
Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Uh, well, I can give you my immediate
thinking is, it should not dictate the format at all.
Agreed.
Dave Jones: I agree. That's the date the protocol, the protocol
for delivery, not the final format of the theory.
Adam Curry: Agree. Agreed. Not how it would be like saying you
it would
Dave Jones: be like the namespace declaring which audio
format you need to use right enclosure, right. Got it. Got
it. But I think that's because that was part of the debate. as
well as like, oh, you know, why do we need three of three of
these formats supported in the in the namespace? I think, you
know, really, there's always going to be new formats and
things over over time. We should probably that we should probably
make it more clear in the namespace documentation that
those are examples. Not limitation. Okay.
Adam Curry: So a couple questions, some practical
things, because, you know, of course, this has been this
should have probably been done a long time ago, this conversation
because a lot of people's processes and things are set up.
And I'm, you know, I'm not sure about everyone, but I know that
I'm pretty set in my ways. I've got stuff going, if I have to
change, what will a break? You know, there's all these
questions. And then does that mean? Oh, just to make sure I
got to put four different ones in this is this is what I'm
always worried about? Yep.
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, the long time ago thing like this,
this is another reason why it's good on occasion to slow down
and go at a slower pace. Because sometimes you can't anticipate
these sorts of things over time. Now, the line length thing has
been debated for a while. But then like some sometimes there
crops up a certain strain of thinking down the line, let's
just say six months down the line of a thing that you're
doing. It's like, Huh, well, now that's an interesting thing that
I never thought of. So like, sometimes you I mean, I guess
speed here can be is an enemy as well.
Adam Curry: Well, just so you know, speed does not kill the
sudden lack of speed. That's what I would I would caution
people then. The one thing I don't like when I see this
debate, is when someone says, Well, you know, only half a
percent of all podcasts actually have transcripts. So what are we
talking about? Yeah. And that's a very accurate depiction of the
voice whoever that was.
Dave Jones: I've heard that guy. Yeah. Yeah, I know that guy. And
that always
Adam Curry: find is that's such a that's such a buzzkill. When
someone does that, it's like, come on.
Dave Jones: What I always think about when I hear people say
there's only only such and such percent of podcasts do X I'm not
thinking is always immediately will only only, like less than
1% of podcasts are any good anyway.
Adam Curry: And you're listening to it right here. Yeah.
Dave Jones: So I mean, like, okay. Oh,
Adam Curry: okay. All right. So I guess the real question is,
well, maybe we should bring in our in our boardroom guests,
because this is automatically going to flow it over into some
other conversations and they have some more new stuff that
they've deployed for a while that that, obviously, where am I
here? That needs to be discussed, because it's also
kind of exciting stuff. And they've been in the boardroom
before. It's very nice to have them back. They are without a
doubt one of the biggest supporters of podcasting 2.0 The
entire project from the get go. Ladies and gentlemen, please
welcome two esteemed Gentlemen, gentlemen. The Honorable
misfits, Kevin Finn and Tom Rossi from Buzzsprout.
Kevin Finn: Heck, yeah. This whole, like scrape onions on
this stuff.
Adam Curry: We didn't bring any here for opinions just to
promote.
Dave Jones: I mean, it's fair to fair to categorize you guys as
ambassadors from the fortress of freedom. I love it. I love it.
Of course, you know, fortress of freedom, which is in the
basement of the Hall of Justice. So yes. So I mean, what are you
what is your yelling opinion?
Kevin Finn: Oh, my gosh, well, first shadow ban. I'm trying to
tell you the word over and over again. I gotta get it. Okay. Oh,
yeah.
Adam Curry: I don't think shadow ban. I disagree that it's not
shadow banned. I've just I'm not playing along with the with the
money game. So I get deprioritized.
Kevin Finn: I agree. I just wanted to help. Dave is looking
for Thank you, even if it was the wrong word. Yes. Um, so I
got the transcript stuff. Um, I think you're
Tom Rossi: telling the origin of the 32 character limit?
Kevin Finn: Oh, you know where it came from?
Adam Curry: Now, you gotta you guys did transcripts very early
on. I mean, you've supported the namespace and everything from
you know, almost from the get go. So I'm not quite sure if it
was the chicken or the egg. I know that all of a sudden, I was
using otter.ai, which is really really weak. in its in its, you
know, in its AI capability. But I'm just using it it kind of
works. I know the workflow, but I think it's it's all I've
always had put SRT was that not the genesis of what we were
using?
Kevin Finn: It is? Yeah, you're exactly right. And that is where
the 32 character limit came in here because that was their
default when you exported an SRT from otter. Their defaults were
two lines. 32 characters, right. So there's no standard around
that you can make an SRT 64 whatever number you want, and as
many lines as you want, but because there was no standard
way to choose something, and a lot of people were using audit
at the time, so we just said, Let's just use whatever their
default is.
Tom Rossi: Okay? And Dave made a really good point, which is you
can always go to a lower fidelity, but you can't go to a
higher fidelity. And so that was, you know, the issue with,
you know, some of the conversation like the JSON
allows you to just you could do it per word, or you could do it
per phrase. It just gives you a higher fidelity transcript. And
I think from there, you can go to any SRT. So for Buzzsprout,
we can go to any SRT, as long as we have a high enough fidelity
transcript to you know, to get there.
Adam Curry: Well, is SRT, limited to the 32 characters. Is
that the is that the
Tom Rossi: problem? No, like Kevin said, there's, there's no,
there's no standard for you how
Dave Jones: the problem though, here's the problem that the
student the SRT file itself, is can be anything but in the
namespace, it says, SRT, Max characters per line 32. Grand
gotcha, right. And this, this is what helpful
Kevin Finn: to be able to provide some sort of structure
for app developers, so they would know what to expect. If
they download one SRT and 64 characters in line, and then
they downloaded Another one had 32, then their code becomes much
more complicated trying to figure out how to display this
stuff,
Adam Curry: right?
Dave Jones: I'm just gonna we just namespace Should we just go
in there and say in just parenthetical Reto says Max
characters for line 32, in parentheses out to the side,
just a suggestion.
Adam Curry: I'm looking at otter and otter, you can output one to
10 lines as your output option, and Max characters five to 200.
So they don't even get you to the one word resolution.
Kevin Finn: Know that their default? So their standard, if
you haven't customized it before their default was 32. And two,
yes. Correct. And then you can change it from there. Yeah. And
so
Tom Rossi: the transcripts we're seeing now are much higher
fidelity down to the to the word, and that's where the JSON
makes more sense, it's a better format for being able to share
transcripts.
Adam Curry: All right, but so then, so all I'm saying is,
there's no JSON output on otter, so I'm gonna have to make a
change, I'm happy to do. But you know, one little change, you
know, you do a couple of degrees on the rudder, and this whole
ship has to go and it takes a long time for people to get into
it. So I'm just saying caution of whatever we decide, or
whatever we want to get to.
Tom Rossi: Well, that's the beauty of the way the specs
written is you can, you can do them all. So if you go to a
Buzzsprout transcript here, you'll see them in any format we
can support. So even if you upload an SRT, we'll make it
available as an SRT and as JSON.
Adam Curry: No, while you guys are just Goody goodies of the
class, aren't you?
Tom Rossi: Hey, I thought this is humblebrag time.
Dave Jones: So who does who does word for word JSON? Like what?
Plus
Tom Rossi: descript is one that we integrate with? Currently,
that gives us the per word?
Kevin Finn: And you can also get out of whisper? Well, whisper
No, that's, yeah, I mean, you can just run whisper on your own
computer and punch out in JSON. So I mean, AI is changing
transcription. So like otter Rev. For years, they were just
looking at the waveform itself and trying to pick up like the
audio artifacts and figure out words from them. And now AI is
improving upon that, because now they can use once they
transcribe the first 10 minutes of an hour long episode, they
can look at the first 10 minutes and start guessing what words
are coming next. Even if the artifacts are a little bit
messy, or the the audio is not really cleaned. So AI is helping
transcription get more accurate. And that's what we're seeing
with things like whisper and stuff like that. And the output
from those, like, when you go to a web service or something,
you'll be limited by the UI. But if you download install, whisper
on your own servers, run it yourself, you can get whatever
you want out, but I
Adam Curry: say just common denominator. I would say the
most people are just going to use whatever their their
podcasting host uses. I mean, if I'm if I'm completely
independent, which I am, then that's that's my issue to go
figure that out. Right? I mean, that's, that's just how it
works. If you either go with with the big flow and the big
ships, or you do a jeroni, and you roll along, however you want
to. So I just thought I just thought it was interesting, this
long, long thread like Oh, okay. And it really we don't have in
this group. We don't have the app developers. And what I want
to see is what Martin was doing. I know how do we I guess that
the answer is JSON word for word. That's the most flexible
for app developers and people who make experiences to have
that resolution and they can always go up or go down or
whatever they want for whatever the app however they want to
display it. Yeah, that's what I think. All right, yeah.
Dave Jones: Israel Apart from so close,
Adam Curry: issue closed,
Dave Jones: what I'm going to open it again with me for
another reason musics match this company, they click, they seem
to have done their luck involved with lyrics and stuff in USI X,
ma tch musiXmatch. They, I know that they are contacting podcast
apps to try to get them to integrate their transcripts into
the app. And I guess I'm a little conflicted. I mean,
there's some because the the transcript is not in the RSS
feed. So this would be coming from a third party service. And
which initially made me I don't know, I didn't like that. But I
don't know that I necessarily see a huge problem with it easy,
either. I don't know. Yeah, as you may have thoughts on that,
because I don't like the fact that it's not in the sound.
Adam Curry: That to me is exactly the same as calling
YouTube podcasts. There's no feed going in no feed coming
out. Now. I'm against that it's outside the spec. Yeah. Okay.
That's, and I understand, I think it's great that they're
offering that. But why do they why? I'm not quite sure. First
of all, what guess what's their business model? How do they what
how does that work? I mean, that I presume they're not offering
it for free.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that and that was my thing is I don't I don't
understand where the they're there. They seem to be VC
funded. And so I don't know what the play is. And I know that I
would rather that if there would make more sense and be more in
the spirit of, of openness, if they would do integrations with
with hosting companies, if they want to provide that service,
and then just get to things into the feed the proper way.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I mean, this is this is exactly where it
comes down to with open podcasting versus everything
else. And, and particularly if it's, to me, it sounds like
he's, he found it, okay, we're going to get as much market
share as we can. And so I can see where it's very attractive
to a podcast app to have transcripts for everything that
runs through their engine, which is fine. But if I come up, if I
come along and say, Here's my transcript, and here's how I'd
like you to show it, then I think that needs to be
respected. Let's put it that way. Yeah. And then you'll find
out when the bill comes, the bill always comes from the VC
guys one way or the other, the bill will come.
Dave Jones: Nathan said that they do host integration. But
you and I know that but me elite in at least one case that I know
of they were they were talking directly to the app developer to
say, hey, we can provide your transcripts for, for for
episodes that are not that don't have a transcript in the feed. I
guess
Adam Curry: I can see that as being valid. But beware. If I
let's say I didn't have a transcript in my feed, then now
in app a, there's transcript running and then brought to you
by Bud Light, you know, then, okay, you can then you're gonna
piss me off.
Dave Jones: This train script, it's like, it's like on a sport.
It's like on sports when they you know, the end zone is
brought to you by every niche, right?
Adam Curry: I mean, that's, that's where we just got to be
careful. That's all No, but I don't see your problem. In
general, if if an app wants to have transcripts for all of
their I mean, for a while they're out and don't just
fountain even show transcripts at all, I can't find them. I
don't think they show transcripts.
Dave Jones: didn't know
Adam Curry: they were doing their own thing if you wanted to
clip and then you'd have to wait two hours for the transcript, a
finished lease with my shows my overly long shows, and then you
can get a transcript and they could clip it at that. I don't
know where that went, if that's still around or not. But I can
see where a service like that makes it attractive. Just please
respect with respect to source of truth if my feed comes along
and and I have my transcript in there, you've got to respect it.
Dave Jones: Kill it. Yeah. Kill that kill the
Adam Curry: guilty thing? Yeah.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I agree. It does. Kevin does. Does
Buzzsprout have the Obamas yet have y'all had a shot at them? I
mean, they seem to be
Adam Curry: by the way, if I can just say no, I just want
everyone to understand what kind of deal this is. This seems to
be some kind of confusion. This is a library deal. Right? This
is the old stuff. This is nothing new is now the Obamas
are creating new stuff and it's going to be on a cast. This is
all the old stuff. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yes, yes. And I
think eat and they they still have their audible deal.
Audible. has, you know, we'll have them exclusive for X amount
of time and then a cast can sell them in the on the open market.
So, the Bruce Springsteen and Barack Obama are not going to
work for a cash add money. Okay. I'm just going to tell you that
right now.
Dave Jones: I have to correct James on that as he made a
mention that this is it's not about money it's about they just
want to have openness to get their ideas out there. I can
tell you that Barack Obama throws $100,000 birthday
parties. Bleep guys, this is definitely about money. Is this
the show was a dog to man. It's just horrible. I'm sure they're
shuffling around because nobody wants it. Well, I wouldn't
Adam Curry: want to say that back to you. The Hollywood
Reporter had had a pretty good, pretty good report on it. And
they said Higher Ground production company founded by
Brock, Michelle Obama has struck its latest audio deal with
podcasting platform, a cast a cast will handle ad sales and
distribution for hire grounds library of podcasts. So it's
it's all the stuff that was already on Spotify, et cetera,
et cetera.
Kevin Finn: Was it exclusive to Spotify before this deal?
Adam Curry: Yeah, well, yes. Except Michelle Obama, they ran
into such problems with filling the inventory, that they
actually opened that up for a while that Michelle Obama
podcast was certainly available everywhere. If it's not still is
it was because it's boring. But yeah.
Tom Rossi: Well, yeah. So as we probably should look at it as a
win for open podcasting, right, is that they tried to keep it in
a closed ecosystem, and it wasn't able to accomplish what
they wanted, or whatever that might be. And so now they're
coming out into the, to the better waters that we promote
all the time.
Adam Curry: Podcast, if anything, it's a huge, well,
it's great PR for a cast. I'm sure they can use it. And that's
why they're spinning it kind of like yeah, oh, yeah. They're
coming to us now. Okay. Yeah, the library has been dropped off
at the front door in a in a cardboard box. But at the same
time, it's a PR disaster for Spotify. I think. Yeah. I don't
Tom Rossi: think they lost really not a win for Spotify,
because it shows that Spotify wasn't they had this great asset
that they weren't able to capitalize on.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I guess what do you need every part of the
ecosystem to make money on advertising? As far as I'm
concerned? I think you need more than just one player, which is
what what their intent was all along. And that didn't work. And
then everybody bailed with parachutes made of various
degrees of metal. And we'll see how they do.
Dave Jones: All right, Tom, I get we get talking about open
subscriptions. Subscriptions. Yes. So Buzzsprout, bus routes,
doing subscriptions. But man you've been talking about?
Conversely, you know, converting what you've got to something
open that is implementable as a spec across across anybody who
wants to do it.
Kevin Finn: Yeah. Am I wrong? Or is this this is namespace talk,
right?
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. Oops, namespace talk.
Adam Curry: Excuse me here, but it's not hot namespace talk.
Okay, there's four dudes here. If you're not going to get no
hot namespace toggle single for me. Let's see it. Let's see how
heated you can get it. And then we'll roll that in.
Dave Jones: Given hands, and now
Unknown: it's time for some hot namespace
Dave Jones: have been turned on the Aural Exciter? I don't know
much. Let's see. So the the spec that we sort of had in mind that
we've been rolling around with for a while ended up being very
similar to what y'all did. And so you know, the ideas being
that you would have a, you'd have a single feed, and the feed
would have the subscription content in it. So you don't have
to have like two feeds like a private feed that nobody's, you
know, like, you know, everything's in the feed. And
anyways, y'all y'all y'all did it in. I think the only real
difference really was that we were thinking more in terms of
infrastructure, y'all is you sort of took a web, sort of a
web first handshake type approach. Did you want to like
run through it real quick on a technical level, and just say
what exactly y'all did and how it works?
Tom Rossi: Sure, sure. The way the way that Buzzsprout
subscriptions works, we actually put the premium content in the
RSS feed with you know, kind of as like a little teaser of
there's an there's an episode that you could get access to if
you wanted to support the show and get access to it. Then you
can hit that same RSS feed but pass in a token, or you could
think of it as just it is a private RSS feed. But the URL is
the same as the normal RSS, but it also includes a token to
uniquely identify the listener. So that way you can verify that
they have an act to a subscription, and then all of
that content will be unlocked. So you can see it all in your
private RSS feed. So what you and I were talking about was how
can we make this more of a standard that other podcast
hosts could follow, and also podcast players could take
advantage of. So that way, you know, it's not a great
experience right now, in Apple two, you know, take that RSS
feed and drop it in, like, we could make it better, we could
make it easier through just a link right from the RSS feed
that takes you directly to verify that you have ownership
or that you have a private RSS feed, and then it redirects you
back to that private RSS feed. So that's kind of what what what
we've been talking about.
Dave Jones: So here was my experience. The first time I did
this the first time I tried it with a with a with a Buzzsprout
subscription feed. And the thing is, I was on cast ematic. And it
was pod news, upon Us Weekly Review. So this was not it
wasn't subscription, but they it wasn't like private, private
content that you had to unlock. But it was subscription enabled.
So what had happened was James had put the subscription page
URL for the web, sort of web based subscription mechanism, he
had put that into the funding tag. So at the bottom of cast
ematic, when I'm listening to the episode, Franco has the
little funding tag icon there. So I tap it, I didn't even
really know that this was going to happen. I'm just kind of like
intuitively, just trying this figure this out. I hit the
funding Tag button. It opens a web view, a web view in Casta
Matic, and there's the subscription page right there.
And it's like, you know, how much do you want to donate? Do
you want to donate three bucks, five bucks, 10 bucks a month?
And I was like, Okay, I'll do 10 bucks. I later changed it three
bucks, because, you know, it's the so I went to I did the 10
bucks. And one of the options for paying was Apple Pay. So I'm
like, Okay, it's cool. I double click the little double click
the power button, do the Apple Pay checkout. And it's like,
okay, great, you're done. And then the WebView closes. And
I'm, I'm back in, I'm back in the out, I never left the app,
really, from the experience. Technically, I did. But
experience was I didn't. So that I think that was all enabled by
the fact that the signup screen, so to speak, the signup page was
in the funding tag. But if you were if we're doing this as a
complete open subscription sort of idea, then that probably that
link to do the subscription. If it's a UI, Web UI based, you
know, you are just a URL on the web, you'd probably be moved
into this or probably be moved it somewhere else into the feed
where it makes more sense, I would think, because the funding
tag is too is like loosely connected, good
Tom Rossi: the way the way that we did subscriptions, you can do
premium content, or you don't have to do premium content. So
if you don't do premium content, then the funding tag does
exactly what we want to do, right? If you want to support
the show, you can click on the link that's in your funding tag,
pick your amount, and you're off to the races, if it's premium
content that feels like something different. And that's
where I think we should introduce another tag, which
would be some type of authorization URL,
Adam Curry: private modified Spotify tag, how about
Tom Rossi: to be able to access to premium content for that RSS
feed?
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's a good point. So so if you have this,
if you have content premium content, where you have to pay
for it, to hit to listen to it, then it then that that link to
buy it should be in some, like you said, it should be in this
own tag, or somewhere else that makes more sense than just
funding because fundings disconnected,
Tom Rossi: but the player needs to hear it needs to hear
something back from the whoever is going to authorize charge the
credit card, verify the payment, whatever. And so like cast
ematic, for example, would need to hear back what is the private
RSS feed. And so that's where I think if we could introduce into
the namespace, some way of doing web hooks, some type of standard
for doing web hooks, we could use that same methodology for
the verifying ownership of a podcast where, you know, because
he kind of got the conversation got derailed when it started to
get into Oh off. And that's kind of a complicated structure. We
could do something so much simpler and just do a web hook,
where we, you, they make a request to the API, we verify
that they have ownership and then we just hit the web hook
and pass in, you know, the parameter to let them know here.
Yeah, they're verified or we let them know here's the private RSS
feed, rather than, you know, building too too much. Some
infrastructure for the players to implement. I like that
Adam Curry: idea of can we just have a general system like that
that is, is an authorization system with a web hook for
anything that we might need?
Kevin Finn: Yeah, I mean, I think so we're talking about,
we're just talking about a generic callback system, and
then letting people get creative about how they want to use it.
Adam Curry: And it can be any payment system, any any type of
that that makes a lot, which would also be great, just for
general verification. This is my feed, right? Yep. Yep.
Tom Rossi: Host and say, and then basically provide the URL.
So for example, let's say that it was a verification tag. So
you put in the URL, in this case, it would be a Buzzsprout
URL. So now when they click on that, or the player goes to that
link, and pulls up the page to display to the user, the user
would then login to their Buzzsprout account. And then it
verifies that they're the owner and then calls the callback URL
and passes in, yes, they've been authorized.
Adam Curry: I think something like that is pretty interesting.
Tom Rossi: And then you could you could do that same thing for
the premium content, where now it goes out to the the host, it
goes to Buzzsprout, they log in, and then we send back the RSS
feed the private RSS feed this unique to that user, so they can
get access to the premium content.
Adam Curry: Boot. Dave says you'll be right back, he had to
reboot. But that's good, because that gives me complete control
of the board. I think, the obviously you know that I'm I
the idea of premium content. I just like I don't like it. But
that's okay. Because I don't want to stand in the way of
anything. That's why I love the concept of the web hook that can
be used for because I would also I would love to have a way to
just yeah, we got your back brother just support any podcast
on a weekly or a monthly basis? Or, I mean, seriously, even how
cool would it be is if my app detects that my favorite podcast
has released a new episode that I automatically fire off a
payment? I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I would really
love to have, whether it's premium or not. In my case, it
wouldn't be by like the idea of Oh, am new, new episode,
immediate support? And it would and of course, I would like to
do with Satoshis instead of with, with any fiat currency, if
we can accomplish all that with a general web hook system that
we put into namespace, man, you got a champion in May?
Tom Rossi: I think it would, I think what we would be able to
do is just define for each of the different scenarios, what
would the web hook response look like? So for example, was
authorization, they would get a JSON response back that says
authorization true, you know, we define the parameter and the
values that are going to come back, if it was a request for
private RSS feed, what comes back is, you know, private RSS
feed and then the URL, but we would just define those
standards, and now all the players could implement it
however they want. And all the hosts could implement any way
they want. I liked that
Adam Curry: idea that I don't see any downside to it. I only
see wins.
Kevin Finn: Yeah, well, Adam, what's your take on private rssb
It's not like premium content, but like, whatever. Toyota wants
to do a podcast for all their employees only. So they need
some way to authorize
Adam Curry: I mean, that's, I think that to me, is a is a, you
know, that's a sale for you. Right, you know, you'll be
selling to Toyota that capability if you can make it
work in every podcast app. Fantastic. I completely
understand and, and, and agree with doing that. Just from a
business perspective, from open podcasting perspective, from
what I think works and seeing that every you know, every
single stream we went down this road with streaming television,
everyone's losing, everybody is losing Paramount lost $3
billion, they've got content everyone's losing this game.
Mainly because you get exactly to the point which brought us
here in the first place. Is no one can afford to have a
subscription a paid subscription for a month or whatever it is
for every single piece of content they like then you have
to make shitty decisions. Well, okay, I can't afford to have
this I have to cut myself off I can't have Disney because I
can't afford it and Hulu and Netflix and Paramount plus and
all that stuff. That's just my opinion that I think history
shows it but there's reasons to have private feeds.
Dave Jones: It seems like the on the private feed thing. There's
our original discussion around open subscription was avoided in
order to avoid private feeds. So that was like the original the
original as as sort of conceptualized was the podcast
app does a hence does some sort of payment handshake. It you
know it kicks out you do the payment You set up the
subscription. And then what gets handed back to the app is some
sort of token. And then the app itself stores the token and
sends it sends the token as a parameter with the enclosure
download request, so that you don't actually have to have a
separate private feed. And that that comes from like that, that
comes from the sort of messiness of trying to police private
feeds. Because that's the only downside, the only the only
downside of private feed are tokenized feed URLs, is that if
they get loose? Your you got almost you have to kill them. I
mean, I think most of these services like, you know,
substack, and it was a super cast. And these cats are that
generate, that do a lot of those private feeds. I think they also
usually have a mechanism in place to where if they detect
that it's getting hit from multiple geo locations, they
didn't they kill it and recycle a new feed, and things like
that. So that in order to avoid that messiness, you could have
the app itself could store the token, instead of bag, then you
require the app,
Adam Curry: you know, you know, where this conversation always
ends up Dave? DRM, that's where it always ends, watch. It always
ends. DRM always does well, in
Dave Jones: the past to store something, yeah,
Tom Rossi: but the way you're describing it is pretty much the
way it works, the only thing that's happening is you're
passing in the token. So what happens is when you make the
request to Buzzsprout, for example, if we were implemented,
the way I proposed, when you make the request to Buzzsprout,
what it's sending back to you is essentially the token, right,
because it's if that value were to get out to the public, well,
then anybody could go ahead, and they could download anything
they want. And that token is only as valid as that person is
paying for their subscription. So it's pretty much if you look
at the URL, that's what it is, is you're passing in the token,
with your request base, I'm just trying to build on a standard,
rather than like, because there's already a way for a, for
example, for Apple podcasts to be able to load a private RSS
feed, but they don't really have a way to deal with tokens. So
what we do is we just attach the token to the URL. So in the
enclosure URL, you're passing the token with your request. And
that's, that's really the big difference in the RSS feed is
that it includes your tokens,
Dave Jones: which I think, which I think is is just a good
compromise, it makes a lot of sense to do it to do it that
way. Because it's a it's a, it's not such a heavy lift for the
app. Because you're just moving right, you're sort of moving
things up the stack a little bit to where it's primarily a web
handshake, and less of a sort of lower level infrastructure
handshake where the app has to do a bunch of negotiation. The
only I guess the only, the only thing is how, if if that's how
it goes. So if if if the idea here is to have a purely in app
experience, where the user does not have to manually do an
interaction, so what you would want in that case is, if it's
premium content, you'd want to kick out to a web view, do the
transaction, and then hand back the token, the tokenized, and
feed private feed your real, you do want to hand that back to the
app in some way. So that the app knows to swap out. Yes, see that
it has in storage already with the new one. So that's
Tom Rossi: the web hook. So the what the web hook is the app
telling the service, hey, after they've completed their payment,
call this URL and pass in the tokenized URL. So that way, you
can pass it back to cast ematic, or whatever the player is.
Dave Jones: So but is there a way to do it? The I never really
got a satisfactory answer to this. When I posted about it on
the on the mastodon was, is there a way to hand hand that
back from the web view where you don't have to have a second or a
second request?
Tom Rossi: I don't believe so. Because that would be a big
security risk. Because that would mean that the app is
monitoring what you're doing on the website. That's not their
website. So cast Matic is monitoring what you're doing on
Buzzsprout. So I think that there's no way for the web view
to pass that information back. That's where the web hook comes
in. So web hook is a way for us to pass it back the same way it
came to us. It came to us as an HTTP request, we can send it
back to them through an HTTP request.
Dave Jones: So it's not like there's no there's no capacity
for something like like a return value from a web view. Or an
exit code.
Tom Rossi: Yeah, I don't believe so. But I'm not a mobile. I'm
not a mobile guy.
Dave Jones: Okay, because that's the only that's really the only
part that gets tricky. I mean, like, if you can give, if you
can give it back then that's like effortless care, but you
don't even So just do it in?
Tom Rossi: Well, yeah, that's true. But if the web, the web
hook is a mechanism, I think that anybody could take
advantage of right? Like any of the players that are out there,
they could they could make, or they could receive a HTTP
request, as long as they have a server that they can receive it.
So now they get that private feed, and they can just swap it
out for the one, you know, that they were currently on before.
Dave Jones: So when you're saying web hook, you're talking
about the app side is receiving the hook.
Tom Rossi: So okay, so if cast ematic is the player, and
somebody wants to authorize ownership, or they want to, you
know, subscribe to premium content, then it goes to a
Buzzsprout URL, but when they call Buzzsprout, they say, when
you're done doing your thing, here's a URL or a web hook, I
want you to call this URL when you're done and tell me what
happened. So now Buzzsprout does its thing. It authenticates, or
it does Apple Pay. And once it's done, it calls that web hook and
says, Hey, we're done. And everything went great. Or it
calls the web hook, and it says, we're done. And the credit card
didn't get approved, whatever. And so we pass that information
back to the app, and so that the app can do whatever it wants to
do.
Dave Jones: So that Yeah, cuz that's gonna be a problem for
customers. Because they don't he didn't Franco has no server
infrastructure at all. Period. Yeah. Yeah. So it's So
Tom Rossi: how old are you to receive? Uh,
Dave Jones: huh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's, that's
the issue. So for those, like for, it'll see, Nathan says apps
can definitely inject their own JavaScript into web views. If
that's the case, they, you would think they could get those
things back. I mean, like, for, for many podcast apps, I mean,
I'm going to say a lot of them, they would have the capability
to receive the hook. But there's going to be some out there that
don't. And like cast ematic, where it's purely everything
happens on device.
Tom Rossi: If they can inject their own JavaScript, then the
web hook could be a URL, a local URL, you know what I mean to the
JavaScript? Yeah. Okay. But that would be that would, that's the
mechanism, we're talking about building. But what we would need
is an app developer, to to kind of weigh in on that because I'm,
I'm a web developer. And they'll have a different approach to it.
Yeah, what that but that's what I that's what I just came up
with. And this is specifically for, you know, doing, giving
access to premium content, but building a web hook
infrastructure that we could use in other areas as well.
Adam Curry: Let's talk about the other areas before I fall asleep
over this tantalizing
Tom Rossi: commodity. This was a hot namespace talk.
Adam Curry: Not really. We got web hooks got JavaScript. So
this kind of folds into because we've now discussed two things
that were kind of with the, with this web hook, round robin
infrastructure for t x t. Both things that are part of the pod
Standards Project. Which I believe you guys are one of the
driving forces behind it's a little unclear because I'm not
quite sure. You know, why don't you tell us about that? Tell you
about the pocket Standards Project. Not so much about this.
I think everyone who's listening knows what the standards project
is but what's driving it who's driving it where are we at?
Where's the wallet for me to contribute to it?
Kevin Finn: I have it I have a guy wanted to bring it to you
live and except your gracious gift person I want to send to
you in personal email.
Adam Curry: Good good. Well send that to me while we're talking
so I can put it into split
Kevin Finn: Okay, what do you want just like I set it up on
Albie just want to get lb? Yes. Just
Adam Curry: send me the Yeah, just send me the get lb user
addresses worked perfectly. For it's perfect. So it was funny,
because, you know, we talked about this on the last episode
about how you know, we're kind of the fighters running around
on the front lines. We've got the diplomats and the
politician, but we want to help fund him. And then subsequently,
it seems like one of the main you know first topics of the PSP
Oh, dot nine is transcripts and everyone's yelling and screaming
over podcast indexed or social about it. So I'm just trying to,
which is fine. I'm trying to figure out when when does some
how what's what's the mechanism? How's it going to flow through?
When does something get written up? Who writes it up? What are
the inner workings of this, because I've seen a lot of these
projects have actually had missed 10 years, these projects,
I wasn't invited into them, I wouldn't have gone anyway. And
they usually turn out to be a dud. And so I want to do
everything I can to help everyone make this successful
because I do believe in the idea. But I'm like, you know now
we're a week further. There's no new blog post. There's no news.
There's nothing in the GitHub that I can see specifically,
what's the process? Who's driving it? Should there be a
designated leader? Who do we look to? I mean, I just hear a
little confusion. You certainly I'm confused a bit. You're
confused?
Kevin Finn: Yeah. Yeah, let's try to answer some of that
address some of that confusion. So I think the we launched the
project, it takes, it took a lot to get to that point, a lot, a
lot of work. And I think a lot of the people who did a lot of
the heavy lifting on that needed a week to breathe. And so I
think that's why it was a little quiet. There is there was a lot
of communication happening on the back end. And we decided
that that's, I mean, this is not how a successful project is
going to work. We have to get this thing out in the open. But
in order to get it out in the open, we had to put something
out in the open. And when you're working with a lot of
organizations and a lot of different opinions, you've got
to get some sort of agreement about here's what's coming.
Here's what we're going to open up. And so that's what took a
long time. Now that that is done and that is out. We want this to
be an open project. So in terms of that's why we didn't come out
with a one Dotto spec, we came out with a dot nine like here's
some building blocks. And we feel like it's pretty good and
everyone involved in the project has agreed on this stuff. But
now let's get it to one Dotto. So we want to hear pushback, we
want to hear challenges we want to hear how can we improve it
what's lacking the there's a difference between the spec that
is being proposed, and the requirements to be a PSP
certified provider, whether you're a listening app or
hosting company to be compliant with the spec, you don't have to
support transcripts, that's just a recommendation as far as
recommended tag. But to be a PSP Certified Partner, if you're
like a hosting company, you have to have a UI to upload a
transcript. Does that make sense? Yeah, sure, sure. Sure.
Right. And so anything that's in the spec, whether it be required
or recommended or recommended or situational, you have to provide
a UI if you're hosting company to do that. And if you're an app
that is certified, then you have to, there's only two tags right
now that you need to accommodate to be a PSP listening app. And I
think that is its funding and transcripts. Right. And so it's
really the bar is really low right now. But the idea is to
set the bar low, so you can start getting adoption. And then
as other great ideas come in, we will do yearly reviews and say,
Hey, do you want to keep that PSP certification, we hope it's
valuable. We hope you believe in what we believe and still want
to be a part. This year, we're going to adopt XYZ, and we want
that to be community driven as much as possible. We're trying
to figure out right now, like at the end of the day, somebody's
going to have to say, we're updating the spec to this, we
want to move from one Dotto to
Adam Curry: one step back one sec. Who who says to Pocket
Cast, y'all want to be a part of it, you've got to implement your
transcript, who is the who is the person that says that? That
I presume that person is not designated. This is what I know
this this, this is this is where things break. I mean, I'm an
organizational guy out community guys. So I see these things like
okay, I understand that, that that has to be said, but someone
actually has to say it.
Kevin Finn: Right? Well, the people who are saying it right
now, it's not just one person, it's a group of people. So it's
a group of people that came together and said, Hey, here's
dot nine, here's the certification requirements.
Anybody who wants to be PSP certified has to meet these
requirements. And it wasn't just Buzzsprout as Buzzsprout and
transistor and red circle and blueberry and rss.com. It was us
speaking together and saying we agree on this stuff. And that's
enough of us have agreed that anybody else who wants to come
in these to play by these rules.
Tom Rossi: Hopefully that badge begins to mean something for
especially for people that care about open podcasting. And so
then they'll ask the question, why don't you have that badge?
Why aren't you doing it?
Adam Curry: Right. So that that's my point is I see Pocket
Casts coming soon. Yeah, yeah. Someone has to excuse me. You
know, we're going to take you off, and we're going to take
away your badge.
Kevin Finn: Your credentials. Yes. Right. Right. No, that was
great, though, because Pocket Casts was super excited about
it. But they said, You guys are launching before we're going to
be ready. And so we said, well, we need a commitment. Can you
what's the what's the commitment date that you feel comfortable
with? And they said by the end of spring, and so we said,
that's good enough. But we're going to if you don't have it by
the end of spring, you're logos coming off the site? Am I right?
No problem.
Adam Curry: My recommendation would be just, you know, y'all
gotta just recommendation you need to have someone who is
responsible for doing that. And it can't just be kind of like,
we're gonna someone's gonna say we're going to stand around in a
circle and say, You're not doing it. You need to face and I
hatchet
Dave Jones: man. Yeah, you need to represent
Kevin Finn: Tom wants to be that guy.
Adam Curry: You need to represent you need a
representative. You really do. Yeah. And you know what? Kind of
Todd actually be pretty good because Todd, as I know him,
I've known him for a long time. does not give a crap, he will
say, Hey, you guys are no good, you got to do it, and he'll
hound him. But my recommendation is the only thing I'm missing is
you need someone to actually be responsible for saying that.
Otherwise, it's just going to linger. And I just hate that to
see that happen. That's all just hate.
Dave Jones: The approach makes the approach makes sense, I
think because if you if you look at let's just say mobile apps,
for instance, a mobile app developers are used to this sort
of annual cadence anyway, I mean, iOS, the new version of
iOS comes out each year. And new version of Android comes out
each year. And whenever that happens, things old, older API's
are deprecated. And newer API's come out. And so they they have
to at least change things annually, on a rolling basis
anyway. So if you make the bar low enough, where you say, Okay,
well, you know, it's been a year now we're going to add this,
this extra tag. You know, it's just maybe it's just one extra
thing, you know, that that's, that's not a big hurdle? I don't
think
Kevin Finn: agreed. You're absolutely right. So I mean, the
reason I mentioned Todd, he was very involved in helping us get
to the point that we are, and he's drafted up some membership
requirements he was just talking about, I'm gonna show this week,
and we need to figure out how we get those adopted and put into
place so that we have that person, that person who's
running around and telling everybody, Hey, here's the new
tags. Here's where we're moving. I don't know it. And a lot of
ways it's easier in some of these open source type projects
when you have the benevolent dictator, right.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I don't know. We don't have one. I don't we
don't I don't know. I mean, what
Dave Jones: I thought that was a benevolent dictator was
Adam Curry: someone Someone Someone has to commit key? You
know, that's, that's ultimately what it is
Tom Rossi: that benevolent dictator? Yeah, whoever, whoever
can commit to, for example, for the PSP, what is going to be
that that first spec that everyone agrees to meet?
Somebody's got to make the call on what we're going to agree to?
Adam Curry: Let me ask you a philosophical question. Because
this is going to come up right now. So YouTube has come up with
something they call podcast, which turns my stomach because
it's not. However, is it okay for any hosting company who was
on this list to integrate with, with YouTube without it actually
going through their RSS feed, but just to pump it up into
their infrastructure, therefore, literally ruining the thing that
PSP stands for?
Kevin Finn: Is it okay for them to do that?
Adam Curry: If you're on this list, it's about open
podcasting. It's literally about these companies, Spotify,
YouTube, and to a degree Apple, that are off doing this, I'm
reading the document. But if everyone's gonna go ahead and
say, Well, you know, but my people really want to be what's
going to be on YouTube, you're kind of breaking the whole idea.
Dave Jones: Your question is out of scope? Well,
Tom Rossi: I think I think you're doing what YouTube wants
us to do, which is to conflate podcasting with what they're
doing. And it's not. If somebody takes their content and puts it
up on YouTube, I don't see that as part of their podcast. I see
them as having a podcast, which is your RSS feed. And oh, by the
way, they've posted their content on YouTube. But I don't
see that as
Adam Curry: a podcast. I'm talking about hosting companies
integrating to make it to make one click to go from your
hosting company into YouTube. Would you Would you agree with
me that that is counter intuitive to the mission?
Tom Rossi: I don't think so. Unless they abandon the RSS feed
unless they no longer distribute the content over an RSS feed,
but making that same content available in other places? I
don't think that that's violating this.
Adam Curry: Do you think it's promoted?
Tom Rossi: Maybe they'll vote me out?
Adam Curry: I'm just saying, Do you feel that that is not
promoting a closed system that is not part of the RSS
ecosystem, as described in the podcast Standards Project? I
don't know. I don't know. I don't,
Tom Rossi: I saw it as a threat. I just don't see it that way. I
don't see I don't see YouTube as a threat. I see. YouTube. Now
YouTube could be a threat if they if content was only showing
up there. But I don't see them as a threat. I don't think that
who
Adam Curry: is the threat? Who is the threat to the open
podcast, but could name them who was a threat to the open podcast
ecosystem?
Tom Rossi: Because let me take any podcasts that it doesn't
have an RSS feed. So a company that launches tomorrow and they
have their own audio content, but the only way to listen to it
is through their app. Well, that's not part of
Adam Curry: it's not exactly what YouTube is doing. They're
saying upload your podcast to us. And that
Tom Rossi: way you YouTube will never be a member of PSP. I like
they'll never they'll never want this. But for people to
integrate with them. I don't know. Okay,
Dave Jones: well, me I guess your I guess your The poster
child example would be Spotify, Spotify for podcasters, formerly
known as anchor, which they disable RSS feeds by default.
That would be an example of a definitely something is it's
hostile to open podcast leave, you know, it's not impossible,
but it is at least open podcasting hostile.
Tom Rossi: Yeah. But that's kind of like what Kevin was talking
about where we're trying to like, let's figure out what are
the requirements? Well, can we agree to, because if we set the
bar too high, and then there's only one or two members, well,
then we're really not a strong group to go advocate. So we're
trying to raise the bar. But we have to do that, in a way by
first getting some type of ground level that we can all
start with.
Dave Jones: I think it makes sense. I mean,
Tom Rossi: but it's taken a while. I mean, for sure. You
guys were there. When we when we first brought up, you know, the
idea of doing some some type of group like this. And I know
others have been critical about how long it took for for us to
be able to communicate anything, but we had to get critical mass
like we had to get enough people that could get on board with it
before. Otherwise, it would just die on the vine.
Dave Jones: The one one thing I know that has been the this has
been a constant Thorn is D AI and how it impacts all yes, all
of this other stuff. Like, is there been any, like flexibility
on that? Or is everybody just like no, or the RDI thing is
just what it is. And we're not going to change it. We're not
going to modify, image modify anything about the way it works?
Kevin Finn: Yeah, more of that. It's been. Yeah, whenever we run
into an element that breaks the AI, it's kind of like everything
grinds to a halt. Yeah. And so the best way to get something
out there was just to stay away from those landmines. At first,
I was gonna ask him at some point,
Dave Jones: I had this experience. I was listening new
media show yesterday. And I had in so it's got a pre roll. In
this pre roll. Like I thought that I thought that I had
accidentally missed my mess. My APA because I heard this water
trickling, like he's just water running. And like, what if I
switched to Spotify on accident? What did I do? So I flipped back
in his cast? ematic and he's playing. And I'm like, okay, and
then and then somebody's voice comes on. Okay, so it's a pre
roll ad for a spa. So we've had this, it was like, this thing,
this moment of relaxation has been brought to you by spa. And,
and I was like, Okay, well, that's okay. Unbeknownst to me,
it's a local company. So it was like, you know, the, the spa,
you know, the best spa in Birmingham, Alabama. And
honestly, I was like, and I thought, Okay, this creeped me
out. It really creeped me out. Because we all know that this
happens, we all know that targeting is primarily
geolocation based and that kind of thing that it's not a
surprise that that exists. And that's a thing. But it is
creepy. It because it just reinforces this idea. That okay,
this software on my phone, it knows where I'm at, like, of
course it does. There's a sense in which you can say, Yeah, of
course that the thing knows where you're at the whole phone
knows where you're at. But when it kind of throws it in your
face, and it's in it's it's saying, Yeah, I really know
where you're at, like, I'm actually watching to know, I'm
actively wanting to know where you are. I don't know, I found
the whole thing. Just to comment on dai in general just found the
whole thing very creepy. And it's the first time that's
actually happened.
Kevin Finn: It's one thing when you open up the Maps app or
something that is used, like it's asking permission to use
your location. Yes, you understand, right? Like I'm
giving that permission to use my locations. Another thing when
podcast apps when they might have it buried in their terms of
service or privacy policy somewhere that they'll use your
location based on your IP, but you're not reading that stuff. I
never gave cast thematic permission, and it's not even
Casta Maddox fault. It's whoever's serving up the podcast
and then handing off my IP to some, you know, app server
somewhere. actly.
Adam Curry: Exactly. Yes. I
Kevin Finn: never gave it permission to do that. So that
feels like a violation. Just
Adam Curry: a question on on the Dai a minute. Has everyone
figured out it? Will everybody be supporting transcripts re
syncing after an ad insertion, which screws everything up?
Tom Rossi: Yeah. See, that's that's where it gets very
difficult. Because are we going to say that the PSP like Dai we
think it's creepy. We don't do it. Do we make that a
requirement to be part of the advocacy for open podcasting
because that will exclude
Adam Curry: that's not what I'm That's what I'm asking. I'm
asking is, can if If you okay, maybe it is what I'm asking you
directly.
Tom Rossi: It's what you're asking. Yeah. Okay, if you do
dai it's very difficult. Like, I understand that I pushed hard. I
wanted chapters to be included in the spec. Um,
Adam Curry: Robert just drank, let's just stick with
transcripts, transcripts get thrown off too.
Tom Rossi: Yeah, transcripts in chapters both require shifting
based on dynamic content, which is what Buzzsprout does.
Whenever we insert dynamic content, we shift the
transcripts. Right, and we shift but it's easier for us because
ours are more baked in we're not, you know, looking at you're
in Birmingham, Alabama and inserting 45. Second ad. So I
think that's that's gonna be a point of contention is, are we
going to be able to get those things that require shifting
timestamps and stuff like that? Are we going to get those
included in the pod standards? I don't I don't know.
Dave Jones: I think it's, it's, this is not hard. Like, like,
yeah, it is, I think what happened? It's not because the
technology to do it can't be thought of, it's because there
are third party services out there that that hosting
companies have integrated with that do this type of thing. And
they don't they don't accommodate it. Well, it's like
the if they did if the third parties that provided the AI,
that if they did a better job of tagging and slotting in that
kind of thing in a way that is that the hosting company could
could didn't know about and shift timestamps for this would
be a non issue. But I think there's a disconnect between the
third party DEA providers and the hosting companies that are
that are calling out to them to insert the ads. That's where the
breakdown occurs, I think it's just a it's just a willpower
issue is like, are we gonna do we have the willpower to, to
work with people to fix this over time.
Tom Rossi: So this is where I think the podcasting 2.0
movement that you guys have started can really help. Because
as people that join that community are innovating, and
they're doing cool stuff, well, if you're not using the
transcript tag, or if you're not using the chapters, then you're
not going to be able to do that cool stuff that's going to
that's going to put pressure on groups to be able to do those
things, which is going to help us adopt that as a standard,
because now we can point to it and say, look that don't you
want to do that? That's what you got to do to be able to meet
this standard?
Adam Curry: No. And that's really, I really, you got to
explain that to me again, what do we have to do?
Tom Rossi: What you're doing is great, what you're doing is
innovating and coming up with those things so that as they get
more adoption, we can point to them and say, Look, that's what,
that's what you've got to do write like, that's what people
want. And we can make that part of our standard. But we've got
to get enough people on our standard have the appetite or
the willpower to implement it.
Adam Curry: I think the market takes care of that for yourself.
I mean, I don't want to tell anybody what to do. But if if I
have transcripts, and my my audience enjoys my transcripts,
and the hosting company, I'm using screws them up with Dai,
then I'll probably find a better dia de ai provider. And I think
the the market for solves that. I don't think that we need to
tell anybody.
Tom Rossi: Yeah, well, but what podcasting 2.0 did was provide
the way for that to happen. Right? If you guys didn't do the
transcript tag, if you didn't advocate for that and get some
adoption, the market wouldn't even know. Right, you know,
Adam Curry: then it's, then whoever doesn't do that,
eventually people will say I don't like it, and they'll leave
and they'll go somewhere else. Right? Because transcript Oh, I
mean, that's I thought transcript was solved. I mean,
we're still working on it. But once we get down to the right
resolution, and everything, I hope everyone implemented and
everyone tries to make it as simple as synchronized as
possible with with the actual audio.
Dave Jones: We have to see the syncing with the audio is just
is because it's like we're having debates about about word
level synchronization or sentence level synchronization
when one ad slot comes by and the whole thing is way off is 10
seconds. 30 seconds off anyway. And that's just it. The the the,
I see it as a as a disregard.
Adam Curry: But yeah, if you're a hosting provider, and you
provide transcripts, and you provide ad insertions you need
to solve that as I don't
Tom Rossi: think they do. Yeah, I think if you're doing if
you're doing you're not doing transcripts,
Adam Curry: no, but you do both. You just said you did.
Tom Rossi: Right, we do. Yeah, but I'm saying that the people
that we're talking about we're not calling out anybody by name,
but the people that we're talking about that's what
they're not providing transcripts. Right so I don't
think that's the problem is that they're not shifted correctly. I
think it's just they're not they're just not providing
transcripts.
Adam Curry: Okay. All right. Well, let's they start to
provide transcripts then they need to do that properly.
Otherwise people's age not good.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. Cuz that's, that's the that's the
big the big pushback that happens with me, Mark Joe said
it on on, on that podcast that time he's like, Well, if you get
chapters and transcripts, they're great. But then as soon
as you get to an ad slot, it screws them all up. Well, if
that's the perception out there, that's really sloppy. That's
that's sloppy. You know if that's the perception that that
other app developers,
Adam Curry: and that's my point. So if you're providing
transcripts, and you don't have your your da, I rejigger the
timing, you can't have a logo. All right. Yes. That's the only
shame we can use no logo for you. Exactly. Can I just move
the conversation to a little thing from the front lines? To
noster? Do I hear and deliver? Did everyone go? Oh,
Dave Jones: yeah, did I mean I'll do it. Yeah.
Adam Curry: I'm just gonna keep telling you that there's
something there. And there's something going on with this.
And they're working on fig. Gigi posted a very thoughtful article
about how noster zaps could be split into and to respect
splits, in podcast. So in effect and make a noster. You could
have an austere app or payment system or mechanism that would
respect the splits in the value block. They call it prism or
whatever. I know that people are working on connecting podcast
good to, to noster identity.
Dave Jones: Well, what? I don't know about this? No, I guess
show good show goods.
Adam Curry: Yes. So that you so I could as part of my Nasir
identity, I could connect anything to that I can connect
an Albea wallet, I can Can I should be able to connect my
podcast goods to it. These are the it would be the the
ownership of the source of truth, I think is what the
concept is. That makes sense.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that it's not anti Nasr. It's just that I just
I'm having a really hard time getting it's like getting
excited about it. Because it's the model. The model is
basically them forgive me, I know that's not 100% accurate.
But loosely, it's it's Tor is the Tor network. I mean, you
have nostre has relays Tor has exit exit nodes. And to me if
everything ultimately has to go through these relays or these
exit nodes, I don't see where at all, ultimately you get the
sense you how do you avoid the censorship. Because every every
I can tell you in a court at a corporate level, every firewall
package has built into it a rule called Tor exit nodes, you just
enable the rule and now your network is completely cut off
from Tor. The same thing could have the same thing can easily
be done with an austere you just immediately cut it
Adam Curry: off. That's not at all what I'm excited about.
Okay, the experience I have, I don't care how it works. I mean,
I understand a lot of it, I don't understand enough of it.
By the way, tours satisfies me very well every single day, I
have multiple nodes here at home running on it, I'm very happy, I
get payments in and out through the Tor network. So and I'm not
excited about censorship resistant, any more than I am
about Bitcoin being censorship resistant. What I find exciting
is I own my identity. This this is the exciting part to me, I
owe my identity to such a degree that I now actually have a
little nostril relay on my umbrella. So everything that I
do is basically backed up there. And so even if it's thrown off
of all the relays whatever, by hat by hat, my stuff and I find
it the intriguing part to me is that no matter what app or
service or anything that I've used, I show up and I put in my
public key and it knows who I am and it knows about stuff that I
have. That's exciting to me.
Dave Jones: Now I get you know, I get you it pushes it pushes
identity down the chain from the server level to the client
Adam Curry: let correct and what I'm what I'm seeing is
interesting things that you can do with that with with that
specific thing. I don't care if it if it ran over to tin cans
and a string. I like that part of the something about it that I
like I'm just going to keep identifying it. So when someone
says hey, if you have a podcast good we can connect that to it.
I can see kind of concept Surely, what can be done with
that? Just feels like this, you know, this public private key
thing? That's what attracted me to Bitcoin?
Dave Jones: Well, it feels, I don't know, I think the
cryptographically secure identity is oh, I'm trying to
figure out the right way to express this. Mine's my, my
first idea was to say that is overrated. I'm not sure that's
accurate, that I'm not sure that's an accurate
representation of what my thoughts are, though. Here,
here's a, I run into this from time to time. Where, and, and
seeing as how everything around noster very much emphasizes the
censorship resistance angle.
Adam Curry: Now, that's just that's just the early adopters
who just were talking about that. And those guys, most of
them are talking out of their ass. They're extremely excited
people. And they think, oh, yeah, I mean, believe me, every
email should be on noster I got it. Okay. But that's not going
to happen. Right? I understand that, that, but I'm mindful my
own book, I've been around, I've picked things up unusually,
pretty early. I'm just feeling something here. I'm gonna keep
saying it, because something is happening with it. That is, that
is beyond the technical bullshit and beyond, beyond whatever's
left or the toxic Bitcoiners there's something going on, it's
a very, there's a lot of positive energy. And, and I'm
just, I, I can't build anything, I can't do anything. But you
know, people come to me and say, Well, how about this? Oh, that
sounds pretty cool. And there's gonna be stuff coming out of it.
And I don't want to be so locked up in transcript resolution that
we forget to look at other things that are happening out
there on the battlefield?
Dave Jones: No, I don't really ultimately have no I have no
problem with the nostril people doing, do it. I just got I got
no problem with it. I guess. I mean, my my issues with the
reason I I'm trying to explain why I can't, while I'm not more
excited about it. That's really what it is. This is not Anton
Nasir, this is just really like, why is it not just really
lighten me up. And it's, I mean, like concrete, concrete,
cryptographically, secure identity only, it only matters,
it's only desirable when there's trust. Like, in a in a
situation, where you have a group, a group setting, let's
just use Mastodon, for instance, and podcast index dot social, I
do want an identity that is stable and secure. And proven. I
want when I post the podcast, index dot social, I want to be
known as Dave. And you know, in a way that nobody else can
tinker with, or mimic or impersonate outside of that
context. Concrete identity proof becomes not it's just it becomes
a lot less desirable. Like, in the big example would be, if
you're commenting on a random person's blog post, in their
comment thread on their WordPress site, I don't really
want to use my identity on that, like, I may be making a comment
on there. That's in this, this, this blog post is controversial.
And I may have a controversial opinion. And I and I'm not
really comfortable tagging my cryptographically secure
identity to this thing, like at once you leave sort of a a
trusted network and go out into other areas, concrete identity
becomes becomes less desirable and can all and can be even a
liability.
Adam Curry: You know, obviously, the simple answer is I have an
identity for this, I have an identity for that. And I do I
you know, I'm going to have an identity for Pornhub. At this
now I'm not going to use the same keys that I'm using for
other things. When it comes to specifically the mastodon
example. I know that in general, if I wanted to move my my
identity, well, my account now my identity, my username and my
followers, etc. And my post, I can move that to another server,
but I don't get the same identity, that's a new identity.
And someone else can prohibit me from doing that. It's not. We're
seeing it in two completely different ways, for me is the
idea of here's my stuff that's in this little ball, and I can
take it anywhere I want. I can plug it in there, and all my
stuff is going to come up or the things that I need to connect
for that particular environment are going to come up you know,
there's like high blood dot news, which is not a part of
noster not a part of the social network noster that uses the
same identity and then boom Boom, I put that in there, I can
write a newsletter that people can subscribe to which is
outside of the nostril, the social network, I found that to
be very empowering. All I did is I put in my key, my, my, my, my
face pops up stuff that I want known about me pops up. And it's
a whole different environment, in fact that I'll move it away
from noster. This is what I also find so attractive about using
booster grams. And I just wanted to throw out there as an as a
thought that I would be happy to put pod verse as an example,
into a split to have my booster and I've completely done a 180
on the booster gram public booster grams, to have my
booster grams that people send to me for the for that podcast
to show up on pod verse underneath that episode, I would
love to pay for that privilege. And for every other app, if
possible. These these are things that are from a non technical
person. And I'm not really it's not really about trust
cryptographically signed or censorship resistant, I see
features and things that I can do with this particular thing. I
can't just do create, I can create a newsletter on a
different service with my Mastodon account, I can't easily
make things appear on pod bursts unless I put a split in you see
these little things that I can do it makes me feel very
powerful as a content creator. Does that make sense? No. And
Dave Jones: you've, you've made sense to me since the beginning,
I fully understand why the why you're high on it. And the I
really did.
Adam Curry: I wouldn't say I'm high on it.
Dave Jones: You're pretty excited about I am I have
Adam Curry: I do have excitement about it. And I see that when I
see other people running around and excited about things. I want
to jump in the middle go this is exciting. What do we do? What do
we do? And then I see opportunities, and I get a
strong pushback from the podcasting 2.0 crowd. Well,
that's my feeling my feeling.
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's not a strong it's not eight. I
wouldn't classify my me as a push back. It's more of like I
said, there's there's a whole there's a whole discussion here
around like booster grants, for instance. I'm really glad that
booster grams don't have identity tied to them. I don't
like it. I don't know I
Adam Curry: don't have it. But I don't I'm not saying I want
booster grams with identity. I'm not saying that.
Dave Jones: I didn't think you were I didn't think you were I'm
saying what I'm saying is like there is value, the not the
nostril ethic, the nostril excuse me, the nostril ethos is
identity, identity identity. It's just it's that is the that
is the substrate that noster lives and breathes on. And is
cryptographically secure identity that is owned by you.
When I guess what I'm what I'm saying is outside of a
particularly outside of a trusted context. I don't see the
value of it. Like, like, I get what you're saying that you can,
oh, we'll just have different identities. But if I have all
these identities for everything else I'm doing except this one,
well, then it's it. It doesn't even matter if it's an identity
anymore, I could just make it up, which is essentially what
happens in booster grams, you just, you just your name is just
whatever you type into the box, when you send the booster gram,
you don't have an identity. So there's it doesn't even matter.
That's what I'm saying is outside of the, the
Adam Curry: okay, but I'm sorry, I shouldn't have conflated those
two, because I have I don't give a shit about fucking identity. I
care about this thing that I can use that I can do stuff with.
You see that and that's whatever ethos is noster is not my ethos.
I'm seeing a cool way to connect things with something that I
actually control instead of having to have someone else
maintain control over it. That's the same as booster grams. I can
send a booster gram to someone no one can stop me. I love that.
That's what I love about it. And then it it
Dave Jones: because you tied an identity to it. Mike Boone
stopped
Adam Curry: an identity. What difference does it make? It
could be it could be a new identity every single time it
could make a new one every time. That's my opinion.
Dave Jones: In this day, I'm glad you said I'm glad you
brought that up because that's exactly what happened with
Bitcoin Core. In the beginning in the early early early days of
Bitcoin everybody tended to reuse the same wallet ID because
it was sort of it was sort of like an identity. The this this
public key and rapidly people got away from that because they
wanted the privacy now you never do you always generate a new
wallet, wallet ID with every transaction. And so like the the
the digital I Identity aspect of North noster. Because it is so
baked into the ethos, it it. I see it becoming a liability more
than
Adam Curry: I think that's where you are. I don't think that this
that there's an ethos at all. But I think that there's a lot
of people who say things and there's there's impressions. I
don't think I have any Nasr ethos, I think I'm coming in,
and I see that I can do stuff with it, but I can't do with
anything else.
Dave Jones: But you don't run the network, you don't have a
nostre ethos, but you're not, but you're not you're not
building what they're building, they're building it and they do
have an ethos, that's
Adam Curry: that I challenge you on that. I don't think there's
one there. There. I think there's lots of people doing
lots of different things. There's, it's, there's, you
know, there's, there's item type one, and that's the social
network, you know, there, there can be so many different things
with this. That's kind of the point. Okay, so leave that where
it is. Let's just talk about booster grams. I like booster
grams as a feature of podcasting 2.0 that no one else has that no
other that and we know that the YouTube and an apple and
Spotify, they're never going to have it, that it's not within
their corporate DNA, I would like to do more with it, within
podcasting 2.0 That's the one super advantage we have over
anything else. Which is why, as a start, I'm suggesting doing
one ad on where it was initially, I would like to have
apps think about integrating booster grams per episode that I
can enable on their app by sending them a payment, putting
a split into my into my value block. Because I find that
exciting. So now I can add something new, that I can add,
it will be something I think is engaging. In fact, I know it's
engaging for people and and however any app handles that
lightning has, you know, has their or Fountain has their way
of doing it, I would like to see, I'd like to be able to do
more with that my audience can do more interact more with me
and my podcast, that it shows up in different ways in different
forms inside of a podcast app. That's that is the atom ethos
that I also see possible with noster. Does that make sense?
Dave Jones: You see, I mean, you're going this is you're
tying this back to I mean, this is the fountain comments. It's
that that style of thing is that you're telling him that just
Adam Curry: Fountain has made comments, I just be I just want
to show a leaderboard of my booster grams, could be
anything, I want to do more with booster grams. And I
Dave Jones: can already do that, right? You can already do the
histogram leaderboard and stuff,
Adam Curry: debit, I don't program stuff. I'm looking for
app developers who want to step outside of the box and do other
things and come up with other things that we can do. So if we
have a lit tag, maybe an app could have a, you know, a poll,
a live poll or a you know, vote for this or vote for that these
types of things are unique to what we're doing outside of
every other big company, big tech podcast experience. So I'm
identifying that as something that we that is clearly working
because people like it. And I think that we can do more with
that.
Dave Jones: Double I mean, essentially saying double down
on the things that are unique. Yeah, definitely emphasize
emphasize the made like, you know, build on top of those
things. Yeah, yes. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
I mean, like, I mean, I had that on my notes is that is cute,
like polls. I mean, I don't know what you think about this, Tom.
I mean, is polls something. I've been kicking around for a while.
I mean, like, is it something worth doing in the namespace? Do
you think there's enough desire out there for something like
that? Um,
Tom Rossi: I'm not sure. I think
Adam Curry: does have to be a namespace thing.
Dave Jones: I think it would have to be defined. It may make
sense to have it for because originally we said okay, and
this is true. You could do it in chapters. I mean, you could do
it would just kick it out to a web view, but that seems a
little chancy,
Adam Curry: but I'm done talking. I'm talking pure
polling. I'm not I'm talking about polling through boosts.
Okay, so just so you know, I'm not talking about a polling
system that I mean, a podcast hosts should even have to deal
with this. I don't think I mean, I, I'm talking about things that
maybe I'm wrong about that.
Dave Jones: If you define if you define like a pole, you You
know, you if we have some form that what this is what a poll
is, and you can put the questions and that kind of thing
like vote like, Yeah, I'm
Adam Curry: not looking for that. I mean, I'm, I'm looking
for something as simple as I don't know. I'm not creative
enough. And I certainly want to, I'd like to see stuff break and
mess around before we try and put anything into a namespace.
But it just seems like that's, that's where things go to be
argued about for a long time. And, and I get very, very bored.
Dave Jones: Or they come here to this show, they
Tom Rossi: go back to web hooks.
Adam Curry: I don't I don't mean it that way. It's like, okay, I
got I got the transcripts working. And when I'm told to do
it a different way. And like I what do I get excited by get
excited by seeing Martin's version of transcripts? That
think that and that's, he's taking what is already
available, what will be available, I'm excited about
that part. And how and how that works under the hood is is a
different part. I'm just saying, I feel that there's so much more
exciting stuff we can do with the uniqueness. I mean, it's not
a namespace thing like this, there's pew pew that's going
that's a feature that I have in my live show. And if there's a
service that I can send a split to, to have something else fly
off and spin and do somersaults, I want to do that. I'm trying to
say that there's more fun things we can do with our splits and
our payments, etc. Like boost bots, all these things are
really cool these things. More of that. It's not it's not I
don't think I'm even asking for a structured thing. I'm saying
where's the where's the we need more creative crap going on with
something that is really, really working and exciting, and I
think is much better than what what the Nastar Ellen. Ellen URL
stuff is, and we can do so much more. That's what I'm saying.
Tom Rossi: Kathrada tag you're talking about? Has Has Adam
looked at the pod roll?
Adam Curry: Yes, of course.
Tom Rossi: What do you think about that?
Adam Curry: I hate the name. But I understand the, to me, its
recommendations. You know, we've had this idea for a long time.
App developers are busy. I don't know. I mean, if it shows up,
I'll use it. You know, I'm, I'm probably more interested right
now in the remote item where, you know, I can finally have a
music on my show. And then I'll be able to send splits to the
owner and respect the splits of that owners work in the context
of my show. That will be more. That's an example of something
I'd like to do music in general. And we we see musicians showing
up in podcast apps. We're just leaving a lot on the table as,
as a creative group, not as a podcast. Body.
Dave Jones: Kevin, you I think, I think you brought up, you did
the pod roll. Right? You propose to what was your? What was your
vision for that when you when you proposed it?
Kevin Finn: The I hate algorithms. So yes, screw the
algorithms screw. I don't like the idea of a podcast app
listing my podcast when someone's listening the the app,
trying to make a recommendation of what the person should listen
to you next, like I'm the show creator, the people who are
listening, like hearing what I'm talking about what they should
be most interested in what I recommend. And so just display,
like, give me an option, give me a tag that I can put shows that
I think that my audience will also like, and display them
Adam Curry: was not the idea of the pod roll in the first place.
Kevin Finn: Yeah, that's the idea. It's just stupid, simple.
And I think it would be great. Like and we could put pressure
on app developers like whatever Pocket Casts overcast Apple What
Why are you why are you who you when someone's listening to my
content, to push them in the direction of your subscription
show or something that you're, you know, you're making 30%
Like,
Adam Curry: wow, you want to put pressure on people that's fuck
that noise. If that is
Kevin Finn: in my RSS feed, and then your list someone is
listening to my show, also show the rest of my stuff, which is
the other shows I think you should listen to. And then I
think if you if you want to go ahead and do your algorithm
stuff, knock yourself out.
Dave Jones: I think it makes sense because you have like the
the only thing you're left with is is I was listening to you
know, pod news weekly with talking about a cast and
recommendations and the various ways that it's not just them
that lots of people do this where they do the keyword
targeting and that kind of thing. When you boil it down to
categories and keywords. It just almost never works. Them Talking
about recommendation now for advertising. That's I don't
know, I don't understand that world. But when it comes down to
recommendations by algorithm, God, it's just it's a mess that
it just never works. Because you, you say, Okay, well, you
like, you know you like you're clearly interested in news and
politics because you listen to no agenda. Yeah, but this is not
exactly news. And politics is a completely different like, it's,
it's not the new. You listen to this show, because it takes a
cat, you listen to a show because it takes a category or a
keyword type thing and interjects some new life into
it. It's not about the category, it's about the content of that
specific show. And it's, that's an that's an intangible that you
can't quantify. Yeah, I totally agree. It's just me
Kevin Finn: being nostalgic. Also, like when in the 90s, I
would go to blog sites all the time, learn about my newsreader.
And how did I find the next blog that I wanted to read? Usually,
from a recommendation of a blog I was already reading. And there
were no algorithms pushing me in certain directions. And I don't
necessarily think algorithms are making the world better,
probably making it worse. But
Dave Jones: you follow the blog, carnival didn't you can remember
a lot of carnivals.
Kevin Finn: But I'd always go from one to the next I'd be
like, Oh, I love the way that this person writes. And I love
what they write about, what are they reading, and that would
always be in their blog role. I was like, that's just so simple
and beautiful. And that's what I want to bring back. I like it.
And so it's just simple. And it's, and I felt like I just put
it out there and it was done. And then, you know, everyone
wants to debate it, and maybe make it more complicated. But
some things are just so simple that I think they should just be
done in the first place. Like, put a little slap emoji on it.
Tom Rossi: And I like, I like the use of the of the podcast
quid because it gets more people using that as a unique
identifier for shows.
Dave Jones: Yeah, agreed. Rather than RSS feeds.
Adam Curry: Where are we on the GUID is that baked in? Are
people doing it is that? I love that idea. I think it's got
Dave Jones: broad adoption. Yes, guys. Yeah, pretty broad
adoption. At this point, I think I got halfway finished with a
good resolver. in it. I mean, it's functional, I just have to
go back and do do the deduplication work. And then
it'll be ready. If people can use it. I mean, it should just
be like DNS DNS for goods.
Adam Curry: I love that. That. That is, there's a lot of things
that can be done with that. And then I think it also makes a lot
of other things, even stuff like blog rolls or pod rolls easier.
Want to have, I think we have the,
Dave Jones: I have the resolver done that by the end of the
month.
Kevin Finn: But let me just throw out something like as a as
a principle for when we're talking about building stuff
when primarily maybe in the namespace, but but other places
as well. I feel like when we're talking about, I mean, some of
these concepts can certainly get complicated. And sometimes it
can't be avoided, I feel like it would be healthy for like the
specifically the namespace it when complication arises to try
like as a guiding principle to try to figure out how we can
push that complication on to the hosts. Now, Tom's not going to
love this. But I feel like we have really good host support.
And, you know, businesses like ours, we're healthy, we've got
we've got a decent sized staff, we've got good resources, and we
have a business model that works really well. And then you also
have broad adoption and support for what's happening. So you
have Buzzsprout, you have rss.com, and transistor and
blueberry and captivate and in red circles, doing some things.
So there's like, we have some maths, behind us on the app
side, the most support that we're getting are from
individual app developers, and they don't have the resources to
take on complication. We do. And so I would just again, it's I
mean, it doesn't make any business sense for me to make
this argument. But I'd rather see when complication arises
this instead of figuring out, you know, if there's the
possible possibility of moving that complication to one side or
the other, like I say, move it to the host side,
Adam Curry: I'm in total agreement. And I think here's
how it always works. And here's how you can see when things
work, or they don't. When people are creating content, no matter
what it is, if it's a person tag, that's content. So
obviously you have to be enabled. That's the chicken in
the egg. Nothing really moved in the podcast in 2.0 project until
Steven B. And many people tried it and it's very hard to do. And
I'm Martin tried it and a lot of people tried it to come up with
a very simple generator that was easy to adapt, and to throw in a
new tag that we came up with. And Steven B did that with
sovereign feeds. I love him for that. He's a he's a he's my hero
for doing that. So once we had a two or three bigger shows like
no agenda, etc, using that then app start to implement it. And
they will implement the things that that either are so
compelling that they will Want to implement it because you
know, it's their creativity, they want to do whatever they
want to do. But without the content flowing through, then it
just never happens. So it is a natural place for it. And that's
why I love you guys. Because you took the bull by the horns that,
okay, we're going to implement this, even if no one's using it,
well, then people start to use it. And I predict, as it always
have, that eventually, if we have enough transcripts enough
chapters enough, whatever it is, that every single app, even the
bigger apps will eventually, I mean, look, Pocket Casts is
going to start implementing things because there's enough,
oh, it's a half percent who are doing transcripts, they're going
to do it. They will, they will eventually do chapters two. So
it has to be from the publishing side. It always has to come from
the hosting companies.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's where the egg is correct. Yeah. Yeah.
The chicken.
Adam Curry: And it's also where the where the education comes
from, you know, I will say that that's 60% of what hosting
companies do is educate their customers.
Dave Jones: What I what I want to do, what I want to do is dive
in headlong to the TXT record discussion, but I think we need
to thank some people.
Adam Curry: We definitely do. Wow, man. I thought we already
solved that with with the token.
Dave Jones: No, we do but I want to talk. I wanted to go head on
not not not not fixing it. In I wanted to go into a polemic and
apologetic for the TXT record because it's getting some hate.
So good. Anyway, I'll save that for next week.
Adam Curry: Let me thank a couple of people who have come
in live and we appreciate that and a value for value model. Of
course, Dred Scott has been all over the place. 12121 Thank you
boosting the pole. He says, Oh, the O L E is a different kind of
pole. I got it. Steven B with a Sacher Richards 11,111. Finally
right realizing this episode, and I'm glad to announce music
side project now has the ability to create custom playlists as as
any good music app should. Yeah, this is this has really taken
off. I mean, I'm plugging it everyone's musicians are coming
to him. This is good. Drab with another one to one to one drab.
I'm worried about Dred Scott can just stop for a second draft.
I'm gonna say this because I love you. And the things you do
for podcasting to point out the things you've done for my shows
the thing you've done for for no agenda. He's an Archduke Drib.
Please tell me you're not boosting away your kids college
fund. I just want to make sure I'm only half kidding. I get
worried when I see this.
Dave Jones: We will we started with namespace talk which he
went nuts. A lot. He lost it. What do you mean because that's
what he loves. He loves namespace.
Adam Curry: Stop my boost. He says no, there's no stop on the
boost. Exactly. Brian of London. 1948 haven't been listening, but
I'm very grateful that pod thing was put in the standard
excellent stuff. And there you go, guys. Then we move to
another Brian have lunch. Ah, yes. This is the 31,948 Satoshis
boosting live from a restaurant in Cyprus. Not listening, but
I'm sure you just had something excellent. Well, of course we
did. I did. Eric d p 33,333. Another Dred Scott except this
one is 121,212.
Unknown: Sad Carla 20 is Blaze on him. Paula
Adam Curry: that's when he was boosting for the live boost
Kevin Finn: to rip it
Adam Curry: up man is insane. I'm telling you. He's insane.
Our Davis 87 2000 pre boosting go podcasting. You got it man.
Thank you chat. F 3333 Great pre show content, Alwyn contracts
that would be from contracts, I guess. 12,001 2345 12,345 He
says episode split management. Come into contracts very soon.
Thanks, Dave. Yes. On onboarding through contracts love that
great idea. Very welcome.
Dave Jones: We gave him we gave him a built in a Partner API
over the last few weeks. Fantastic
Adam Curry: guy I love now being able to say hey, you want to
onboard the podcast and 2.0 here's all these hosts. Here's
how you guys respond to that to bus browsers. You know, here's
these different different places this app you know this service I
love that tone record one on one on one happy to report first
music collaboration happened organically on wave lake with
another artist in East Africa, finding a track I shared on
noster Oh, he added vocals posted a new version the next
day even dropped a wave Lake shout out in the new track. He's
now receiving SATs via V for V and another adventure is
underway in music space. Whoo hoo. Yes. Excellent them. I love
these collaborations. Then we have meters with 5000 Thank you
meters hardhat one on one a one with the pre boost. We
appreciate it. And I think we have one On pre boost here
blueberry with the evil 66,666. He says he'd like to open his
theater up to value for value ticket sales called free will
donations by the play publisher. Do you all think the for V is
viable for live theater and where would you feel the best
spot for the Ask would be ie at the website at the door pre show
announcement. Okay, I gotta think about this. That's that's
that goes a little bit beyond what my brain can handle today.
And then I hit the delimiter. So that is our pre boosters. We
appreciate it and Dave has more people to thank.
Dave Jones: I do we don't have any Pay Pal. We fully
Adam Curry: fully we've transitioned. We're trans.
Dave Jones: We have but we do have booths. We have many
booths. We have 2112 Rush booths from Leslie yami says running
with scissors on needles and pins at Caroline's monkey by
Depeche Mode. Martin Linda's go,
Adam Curry: why'd you want that one? We did that one didn't he?
Last week? He ordered again. Okay. We only play at once
Martin.
Dave Jones: The trickler that would be the sweetest trickler
500 says he's below the limit but I'm gonna give him a one
anyway because pretty much go podcasting.
Adam Curry: You got a man
Dave Jones: 6969 from Hey, citizen. He says boost boost.
Chip send us 22 to 23 through pod versus boost it to the top.
Adam Curry: This these were these are when we were singing
last week. I'm telling you this. I think we did these on the
premium did we? I think so. Yeah, I think we did these.
Dave Jones: Oh, you know what got Okay. All right. Yeah,
you're right. This got me because I started. We went we
did a Late Show. Yep.
Adam Curry: That's what it is. Yes. The timing was off. Of
course.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay. Let me just go through here. That's
right. 859. Yeah, these are like that night. Okay, I got you.
Okay, April 1. Here we go. Auburn citadel. 100,000 SATs.
Unknown: Bala. Sakala. 20. Is blades on am Paula.
Dave Jones: Yeah, your thanks for reminding me. He says pura
vida. So whatever that means. That's another.
Adam Curry: That's, that is actually the icky stuff of
noster
Dave Jones: that this is the nostril ethos.
Adam Curry: Yeah, okay, Dave. It's the North. Yes, that's it,
where people say, Have a nice day and good night. Yeah, I know
the bunch of dicks over there. Can't believe
Dave Jones: that always just a side note, that always tells you
that that that you're in the honeymoon phase of any
technology when you get them like Hey, good morning.
Adam Curry: Yeah, no. Yeah, that that that is the noster social
media network ethos, right. Yes, I agree. I agree.
Dave Jones: Cast VLAN 3690 says love this show. We love you
cast, we're sure do like a small satchel of Richard 1111 from
Joel Wu. Do fountain no note. CO McCormack. 3333 says, Dave, you
need to start doing the Wim Hof Method to stop getting sick.
Yes, we've been
Adam Curry: just drink your beef shakes now that's
Dave Jones: nailed one row for the show. Hey, hate to hear it.
I promise get healthy from breathing the podcast need you
go podcasting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25,001 SAS from Clarkie and my
buddy says Beep boop
Adam Curry: boop All right,
Dave Jones: boost. Just listening since 300. SAS is
returning to the SAS on earned while listening on fountain. I'm
a musician in a small town. Just getting started and I'm going to
be launching my first albums in podcasting. 2.0 By the end of
the year, wish me luck.
Adam Curry: Yeah, and by the way, it's not just fountain it
works on many other apps go to podcast apps.com And make sure
you promote all of them because people will use them.
Dave Jones: It is properly decentralized. Jean bien 4000
says Thank you Gina. He says Adam talking about DJs today
makes me think about Tom Petty's the last SJ
Adam Curry: shot J
Dave Jones: gene been again 1337 leet boosts he says maybe the
music part of PSP can be a cig SRG aka special interest group.
You have lobbyists now okay. That's how things like this are
done in the Linux ecosystem
Adam Curry: right Usenet group use
Dave Jones: you're gonna be lobbied the Kevin I mean, do
people are gonna be you're gonna be having to pressured with
bribes and such do multiple things. You willing, you're
willing to go up against that and try to stay true to
Kevin Finn: my agreement in New York have
Dave Jones: been again 1330 says maybe this is a duplicate. I
hope that whatever ends up being used for chat is at a minimum
bridgeable to matrix like IRC is I'd like to avoid having yet
another client. Fair enough.
Adam Curry: Have you? Well, that is something worth talking about
next week. Yes.
Dave Jones: Bad career advice, Chad. Exhibit 2222 is a serious
suggestion might I recommend new media stat New Media Standards
Project? This is a named Jay. He can sit it can solve both
podcasting and music. Now we were
Adam Curry: talking about that we needed to add music on 2.0
value for value.
Dave Jones: That's right. Bad advice. suggestion. Also could
be the eventual defining body for when someone creates a V for
V version of only fans, new media all types. Well, that's a
completely separate
Adam Curry: ROI as promised that for three years, never gonna do
it. And never he's in charge of that subcommittee of the border.
Has anyone did chyron pickup the Cossack podcaster. Lady? He said
he's going to
Dave Jones: Yeah, yes, she's. He's on boarded her. She's on
the ship. Both her shows are V for V.
Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Well, good. Then we can have her on
the show.
Dave Jones: Notes. I guess it could be interesting. Sir Doug
10,000 sets he says it's been a while. Okay, thanks. Sorry,
Doug. Long time no, see. Boris kudelski 10,000 SATs he says
what do you think about podcast Anders project? You know what,
we love it worse.
Adam Curry: We have the two talked about it in great detail
Dave Jones: to ambassadors right here. Karen Speak of the devil
for the mere mortals podcast 4119 through pod verse, he says
draining this random wallet. Thanks for both of your help
this week. chyron
Adam Curry: by the way, did you hear his episode with Sam Sethi
CEO of pod fans? It is next on my list. qua Sam Sethi is an
interesting dude. I just thought yeah, it's just some random
Indian British guy. Yeah. Spoilers don't get me very very,
very interesting guy. Yeah, but you can't judge a book by its
cover or by his voice I'm saying this is a good thing as
interesting you'll love it. You'll is I was blown away by it
and you know Kyron car noises research.
Dave Jones: God he's a good me. He is a deep interviewer. He
goes all the way to the bottom. Yeah. 6969 from a citizen. He
says warriors armed with scissors and gaffer tape.
Adam Curry: That's us. That's right man.
Dave Jones: Thank you. Josh pro 1000 says he says Pocket Casts
beats fountain like a $2 mule whoo Goodness gracious
Adam Curry: talk right there.
Dave Jones: Josh would you drink this morning so I'm gonna
Adam Curry: secure going back here Aveda.
Dave Jones: Figured my meager earn set should go to the best
calls go podcasting. Yeah, man. Yes, fountain. Hey, gosh,
Borlaug. 50,000 SATs through pod verse he says letting you know
this project means a lot to us and wanted to
Adam Curry: say thank you. Oh, you're welcome.
Dave Jones: Thank you from Borla Thank you, Lyceum 22 to 22
through fountain he says you have the rabbits what you have
the rabbits hairs in the row. The podcasting 2.0 initiative is
the rebirth of the internet radio on demand. Leo Laporte
suggestion for a new word for podcast is getting more and more
appropriate You are the light was lit live Adam tag cross apps
cross cross comments threads value for value music etc. Go
podcasting
Adam Curry: shows Martin Linda's code go yeah, he's up there in
Nigeria. Me in Sweden. Yeah, like in Spotify his backyard
light him up man.
Dave Jones: Who is 25,000 says through fountain he says thank
you day for generating a pod think token. This will help RSS
blue reach its ESG commitment.
Adam Curry: That's right. Yeah, you should take you should get
carbon credits for that.
Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah, we should both get he should and should.
Yeah, because Exactly. There was this was that type of week where
there's a whole lot of like, private people asking me for
things and doing stuff. So
Adam Curry: no one ever asked me for anything. Let me know if you
want to. I can pass it along if you'd like no, I mean I'm the
I'm the frontline man. I'm the triage. I'm up there with people
saying, hey, my episodes are out of order. Fiction like Jimmy
Kimmel with the name of the show is
Dave Jones: DM me on Mastodon is a way to loophole and get around
behind your firewall
Adam Curry: really well. You should block them for that.
That's not cool, though. You've got to go through info at
podcast index.org and I will sign my initials to your email
and I will help you.
Dave Jones: That's right. Okay, delimiter comes through blogger
3015 says, darling Dave and amigo Adam, did you know that
the word robot originates from Slavic language? No did not.
Then you simply must brush up on vital knowledge pertinent to
preventing a pernicious future for us all. Subscribe to the AI
dog cooking podcast show. It is a superb resource to assist in
that endeavor. The single greatest feat of the human race
can look to achieve is to shake loose the shackles of servitude.
Yo
Adam Curry: CSB and gruff Goethe. Wow we got some they're
very, very creative comics or Blogger very, very creative
every single day. I appreciate that. Yes, thank you all for
your booster grams and for your boost and for your streaming
saps and monthly these are Fiat fun coupons mainly.
Dave Jones: Yes. Congratulations to go off on the new human
resource by the way. Oh, yes. Indeed. Monthly Scott Jalbert.
$12. Chad, Pharaoh $20.22. Thank you, Chad. Mark, gram $1. Joseph
maraca $5, Jeremy new $5 Cameron, Rose $25 and new media.
That's Martin Linda scope. $1.
Adam Curry: Thank you all very much. And just so you know. And
when you hear people throwing around big numbers and stats and
everything, it doesn't matter to us, as long as you're sending
back value data for something that you received and whatever
you find valuable, we can't determine that. So for one, it's
it's $1. For one, it's $5. For one, it's 1111 SATs for one.
It's 500 SATs for another it's 50,000 SATs. We appreciate it
all it's how it's supposed to work. And you have been keeping
the lights on here for going on three years. If you'd like to
support us go to podcast index.org. At the bottom, you
see two Oh, I should probably check it right now always forget
to check the tally coin. We have a red button there a donate
button, which is for PayPal for your Fiat fun coupons and we
have the tally coin. And let's see, nope, that's for the on
chain. People begged and begged and begged that we do it and no
one ever showed up except Dred Scott. I guess Dred Scott is the
one who's always doing it, we appreciate it so much. And of
course, the preferred method is to get into the ecosystem and to
boost us booster grams with a modern podcast app at podcast
apps.com.
Dave Jones: To underscore what you said, I've spun up a new
server today, a $5 server on Linode to host the index for the
reverse lookup from enclosures to feed IDs. And it was $5
server. So what
Adam Curry: will that do the reverse lookup to whatever you
just said.
Dave Jones: You, it will allow people to put in to the API a
enclosure URL, and it will spit out what feed it belongs to.
Cool. Cool. Yeah, because evidently, it's a bigger thing
than I realized that people sometimes know the enclosure
URL, like Spurlock and op three. They know the enclosure URL, but
they don't know where it's coming on podcast it belongs to
Adam Curry: it's a Spurlock special, special request
basically.
Dave Jones: It actually wasn't him. It was it was it was
prompted by Dan Benjamin, he because he was he's building
pieces over that needed the same thing. So and then Spurlock's
like, hey, I need that too.
Adam Curry: I was wondering, you know, because I put no agenda
into the Opie three system. I have to be honest, I never
looked at the stats, but I know what kind of what they are.
Should I just as a as a lark? Should I put it into one of
those other leaderboard things with people? Because I hear
these numbers like, oh, this, this podcast had, you know, had
50 500,000 downloads and like, Dude, I do that in a week or
two, maybe I don't know. Maybe we should just go mess up all
those leaderboards. I pop up in the I heart numbers and stuff. I
mean, I keep hearing James Yeah, he does. He always does all
these, all these different things. And but this person
doesn't measure that. And they they don't measure that. I'd
like to put mine in everywhere. Just see what happens if we show
up late rancor. Yeah. Why the rancor? Yeah, I want to be in a
rancor. Yeah, that'll be fun.
Dave Jones: Hey, I like it. That's good. Do
Adam Curry: you want to still do texts were to inform but if you
want to dive in, I'm cool with it. Limited it, Dave.
Dave Jones: Okay, I was going to ask you this first one that was
first question on the list was have you implemented it yet? Is
it right? I mean, it's out the door is baked? Oh, yeah.
Tom Rossi: Yeah. Okay. So the way that we're doing it is we're
using it to verify ownership. But I think that's just one use
case for Right. Like there can be more, if there's ever a need
to put something in your RSS feed, like the DNS, I mean, what
it's inspired by DNS txt,
Adam Curry: when. So being on the front lines of info dot
podcast index.org when someone shows up and says, I want I want
I want and they have a Buzzsprout feed. So now i What
do I tell them to verify? Because not not that I don't
trust them, but now I just want to mess with them. So what do I
tell them? What do they have to do when I say well, you got to
verify your feed. How do I do that?
Kevin Finn: You can give them a code word or a number I
Adam Curry: can just I can just give them anytime I say put this
in here. And what is it called? You don't call it a TX t do you?
What do you call it on the verification? What do you call
it in your UI?
Kevin Finn: It says email address or token, Ah, okay. It
would take anything. So you cannot
Dave Jones: address or Okay, so you can when you so in
Buzzsprout UI, if you go in the in the email address or token
field, if I plug in the email address, it goes into the TXT
record.
Tom Rossi: Yeah, it's in the, under the RSS feel like in the,
when you go to look at your, your RSS feed, there's a thing
down at the bottom that allows you to verify ownership. And it
says put in an email address or a token.
Kevin Finn: If you put an email address it, I don't know if we
put it actually in the textfield. So yeah, we're just
trying to be a little clever. So if we recognize an email
address, we'll actually add it as a iTunes owner. Drop it in
there, because that's what
Dave Jones: are you gonna keep doing that even after Apple
deprecates that tag?
Kevin Finn: Well as Google, here's the here's the weird
thing. Yeah, it's Apple's tag that they deprecated but people
still use it.
Adam Curry: So Okay. Um, yeah, I'm a little confused. So if I
give someone cuz of course, I want to give someone a token,
like a really weird number. 808 You have put that in? Five.
that'll, that'll show up where? In their feed?
Kevin Finn: In the podcast, text tag. Okay, so we'll show up
there. Oh, perfect.
Adam Curry: Okay, I can't wait to do that. I'm excited. I'm
excited to send people back.
Kevin Finn: Everyone has the same verification token when you
go through them.
Adam Curry: No, I'm gonna give you a nostril. I'm gonna give
you a nostril public key. I copy this.
Dave Jones: Oh, no.
Tom Rossi: That sounds like the ethos.
Dave Jones: Because ever, because Sam was just, Sam was
just I read about the TX T tag in the deprecation of email. So
just I just wanted to run over real quick, since we're doing
this. The thing is Apple is Apple is deprecating that, and
they are still, when they deprecate something. It's, it's
a big deal. I mean, as much as we as much as none of us like
it, it is a big deal. And it's gonna have wide ranging effects.
So we had to do something, it wasn't a choice. And so when we
talked to Ted, at Podcast Movement, he was like, Look,
this is what we're, this is what we do internally, we give when
people want to claim their show on Apple podcasts, we give them
a code, a random string of characters, and we tell them to
stick it in their show notes, we would like and we're not going
to stop. That's the way we're going to do this. This is not
negotiable. Because that's the way that our support team needs
it to function. So we would really like it to be inserted to
be a special tag to house this value. So that doesn't have to
ugly up there. Show Notes. Basically, that's what we were
told. And it was like, Okay, well, this is that's fine. I
mean, y'all are sort of driving this whole ship. So
Adam Curry: So now, but it's not actually in the show notes in a
separate field.
Dave Jones: Yes, that's right. That's right. So now it's
hidden. It doesn't ugly up your show notes was just some random
string of
Adam Curry: all right. But But I just heard you say is, here's
it's non negotiable, you put it in your show notes. But we'd
like it to be in a TXT field.
Tom Rossi: Well, no, it's non negotiable. I think that they
want to put that token into the RSS feed, where it goes is
negotiable. Even in their instructions, when they tell a
podcaster to put it in there. They tell him like multiple
places they can put it, I really think they just look anywhere in
the RSS feed to see if that
Adam Curry: token exists, we should probably get a
confirmation on that.
Dave Jones: Well, what I meant by none, the part that I meant
that was non negotiable. Is is that they were not open to doing
this any other way. And they weren't going to say oh, we'll
do Oh off or we'll do something that they're like, no. Okay,
well, I'm
Adam Curry: just saying because, you know, we know Apple and then
but no, no, we're looking in the shownotes. Now, we're not gonna
look at the gxg field. I'm just, you know, I would hate I would
hate
Dave Jones: it. I think that's fine. I think they just do it.
Honestly, I think they just do it string search in the whole
entire I
Tom Rossi: think yeah, I think that's
Kevin Finn: sounds right. But I mean,
Dave Jones: but but to to ease Sam and everybody else, I mean,
this can be a very simple process. And like it doesn't for
this doesn't for preclude other ways of doing it. Like we just
talked about oak inscriptions. And that can be other other ways
can arise for doing feed verification, that's fine. And
I've got it, I've got an idea as well that I'm going to implement
after the good resolver thing is done. But the for us web hooks,
web hooks.
Adam Curry: web hooks, I'm giving you the web hook here.
All right.
Dave Jones: But you know it, other things can arise but I
mean, this, this really was almost like a, I don't know,
like a self defense move. To have something ready for that
would actually would encompass what Apple said that's what
they're
Adam Curry: doing. So I would say if I feel Sam's pain because
you know, he's trying to onboard people into into his into pod
pod fans. And, and yeah, I feel his pain so I would say that you
know, top of those even above anything else for the podcast
Standards Project, I would say the adherence to that to having
a version of the TX T authentication is the most kind,
brotherly sisterly thing we can do for each other because it's
really the having those email addresses gone and I guess Apple
is pretty much also you know, at play here, it really complicates
your life yeah, without without having that that Verification
Mechanism. I think in
Dave Jones: the future I think there's a pain we're going
through a pain process right now but I foresee a future after
this transition is finished to where it will actually be much
easier than email is now that the future is a bit
Adam Curry: of course email sucks so bad with with with with
spam, etc. I'm completely with you. I'm just saying, saying to
our our ambassadors here that I would say Man, if you can drive
that that's going to help a lot of it helped here forward
moving, you know, new new stuff come online where people have to
verify that way. Or, you know, they could just verify with the
noster ID I would just say,
Dave Jones: well, the chat is just boosted 808. Sasson said he
just he said I verified my feed
Adam Curry: your verified, verified. Kevin and Tom, thank
you so much for coming on. Thank you for all that you do. As
always, thank you for supporting us specifically podcasting 2.0
so graciously as you always do with your monthlies, but also
with with your with your people, your team working on stuff, even
especially the support team who have to deal with all the crazy
crap we come up with and then you guys have to train your your
users we really appreciate it. You guys are true brothers in
the in the fight and thank you so much. Thank you so much,
guys. Thanks. Hey, Dave. Yep, I love you brother. I love you
too. Brent drink some beef milkshake. Hi everybody. We'll
be back next week another board meeting of podcasting 2.0 Thanks
for joining bike chat room, see everybody.
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