1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,430 Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting 2.0 For April 7 2023 Episode 128 2 00:00:05,580 --> 00:00:10,290 We're fully fingered. Oh, it's Friday once again hello 3 00:00:10,290 --> 00:00:13,200 everybody welcome to the only executive boardroom that has 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,760 IKEA chairs that's right time for podcasting for now when we 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,610 break it down the future of podcasting is here we talk about 6 00:00:20,610 --> 00:00:24,510 podcast index.org Of course the namespace and everything 7 00:00:24,510 --> 00:00:28,170 happening at podcast index Doug social I'm Adam Perry here in 8 00:00:28,170 --> 00:00:30,870 the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man 9 00:00:30,870 --> 00:00:34,260 who will filter your Cloudflare tighter than anyone say hello to 10 00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:39,180 my friend on the other end ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jones 11 00:00:40,590 --> 00:00:47,640 Dave Jones: your bro he didn't get distracted by the computer I 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,390 was like I just I was waiting for you to fall out and you know 13 00:00:51,390 --> 00:00:54,120 get that because I was like hey, we don't have a chat room we 14 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,610 need to know when to rip is if you got a boost and we're right 15 00:00:56,610 --> 00:00:57,480 in the middle of the intro. 16 00:00:58,470 --> 00:01:00,660 Adam Curry: Everybody starts ripping and boosting. Hey 17 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:01,680 brother, how you doing Dave? 18 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,500 Dave Jones: Good. Finger free. I'm back. 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,230 Adam Curry: Your what finger would you say finger free? 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,680 Dave Jones: No, no, I'll see what 10 of those a fever free. 21 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,850 Okay, yeah. Billy fingered and No. in unfavored 22 00:01:14,910 --> 00:01:17,250 Adam Curry: alright show titled fully fingered when you write 23 00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:19,980 that down right away. Okay, I'm liking 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,310 Dave Jones: one of our guests today is is also Hi, so 25 00:01:24,750 --> 00:01:27,780 Adam Curry: we'll get to our guests in a moment. First, let 26 00:01:27,780 --> 00:01:30,540 me check in a little bit. I am really excited. I have we are 27 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:33,540 live by the way. For those who don't know what it is live item 28 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:38,610 tag we are lit and live. Get one of those swanky modern podcast 29 00:01:38,610 --> 00:01:43,170 apps at podcast app.com The ones that we're currently pod verse 30 00:01:43,170 --> 00:01:47,370 curio Kassar podcast addict love it I hear by the way fountain is 31 00:01:47,370 --> 00:01:48,060 very close. 32 00:01:49,170 --> 00:01:50,130 Dave Jones: To get close to what? 33 00:01:51,930 --> 00:01:54,270 Adam Curry: To lit to implementing lit. 34 00:01:55,170 --> 00:01:58,290 Dave Jones: Oh, where did you hear this? I did not hear this. 35 00:01:58,470 --> 00:02:00,180 Adam Curry: I heard it straight from the horse's mouth I heard 36 00:02:00,180 --> 00:02:06,630 from from Oscar know from an Oscar from I forget his horse. 37 00:02:06,690 --> 00:02:10,890 And this horse knows his brother known as brother his. His 38 00:02:10,890 --> 00:02:15,630 partner. His partner, Mick Yes, thank you. Okay, 39 00:02:15,690 --> 00:02:19,830 Dave Jones: yeah. The horses Oscar though. I mean, 40 00:02:21,420 --> 00:02:24,030 Adam Curry: yeah, apparently, apparently, they're, they're not 41 00:02:24,030 --> 00:02:24,750 far behind. 42 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:27,810 Dave Jones: What did you say? And when did they say it? 43 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,240 Adam Curry: Well, you said where are you? Well, here's how it 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:35,250 went. So I got a Twitter DM. And I'm I'm not on Twitter that much 45 00:02:35,250 --> 00:02:37,140 anymore. Actually. He's amazing that he got through to me 46 00:02:37,140 --> 00:02:41,640 because I mean, the doge dog is too triggering. Every single 47 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:45,360 time I see that thing like ah, it's like, I can't look at that. 48 00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:49,530 Also, Have you have you noticed that I don't think you're much 49 00:02:49,530 --> 00:02:54,030 on net vertebrate ever since April 1. And I don't have I've 50 00:02:54,030 --> 00:02:58,860 never had a blue checkmark. And I don't intend to pay for one. I 51 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:05,610 have like 69,060 60 or 69,000 followers. The engagement has 52 00:03:05,610 --> 00:03:07,590 like gone down by 90% 53 00:03:09,030 --> 00:03:12,150 Dave Jones: because all the bots are not engaging anymore. I 54 00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:15,120 Adam Curry: know I mean, people aren't I don't think people are 55 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,820 seeing me as much I'm not sure exactly what's happening. I 56 00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:18,720 don't really care. 57 00:03:19,860 --> 00:03:24,720 Dave Jones: Have you been when they call that dT d not 58 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:31,200 filtered? Yeah, like D de emphasize or? I don't know what 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,340 the word is for it and I don't know they like what they do 60 00:03:35,370 --> 00:03:38,340 where they used to make you artificially push you down in 61 00:03:38,340 --> 00:03:39,930 the rank Yeah, direct? 62 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,150 Adam Curry: I guess so. I guess I guess without a blue 63 00:03:42,150 --> 00:03:45,000 checkmark. I think I think that's what happens. Shadow 64 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,760 banned. Yeah, that's what I don't think it's really shadow 65 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,730 banned. I think deemphasize is what it is. It's funny because 66 00:03:50,730 --> 00:03:53,940 actually opened up more time in my life for nostre which has 67 00:03:53,940 --> 00:03:58,440 been reasonably interesting because there's no algorithm so 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:03,330 it's a it's a bit like it's a bit like Mastodon you know it's 69 00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:09,210 like there's you know, you're you're you get down to a message 70 00:04:09,210 --> 00:04:11,310 you've read before and you're done you know it's time to do 71 00:04:11,310 --> 00:04:13,980 something else move on there's nothing left to read here. I've 72 00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:19,710 seen it all Yeah, although the mastodon podcast index dot 73 00:04:19,710 --> 00:04:24,780 social. I mean, I appreciate people tagged me and stuff and I 74 00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:27,810 want to be tagged in it but man, what is the deal with 75 00:04:27,810 --> 00:04:31,830 transcripts? What is this argument? What are we what are 76 00:04:31,830 --> 00:04:38,010 we arguing over? I knew worked for two years everything's fine 77 00:04:38,010 --> 00:04:39,450 what is the problem? 78 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,980 Dave Jones: I knew this you know me well enough right? Yes at 79 00:04:43,980 --> 00:04:48,270 about at about post 12 I was like yeah, that and this is 80 00:04:48,270 --> 00:04:49,320 where Adams gonna bring this up. 81 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:53,880 Adam Curry: What are we doing but I don't understand. Here's 82 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,310 what I think. So someone made a library Steven did crater make 83 00:04:59,310 --> 00:05:00,810 this someone Megalodon Stephen 84 00:05:00,810 --> 00:05:03,120 Dave Jones: crater Yeah. Trent which is great name but 85 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,740 transcript dater Ella was just 86 00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:08,220 Adam Curry: I love it. Yeah, I love it. And I knew that Mitch 87 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:10,290 is like, Oh, cool. And Mitch was trying to get it to work. And I 88 00:05:10,290 --> 00:05:13,260 follow that I love following that stuff, by the way, like, 89 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:16,020 oh, man, I'm glad I'm not Mitch. And so I watched 90 00:05:16,170 --> 00:05:19,020 Dave Jones: Mitch implement stuff. I mean, like, within 10 91 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:20,520 minutes, it's built so yeah, but 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,070 Adam Curry: I know he was having some issues. And I love seeing 93 00:05:23,070 --> 00:05:26,400 that that camaraderie that brothership back and forth. And 94 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,420 then all of a sudden, I just see people piling on when I see the 95 00:05:30,450 --> 00:05:34,020 the good old, it's gotta be JSON. Like, oh, where's Daniel 96 00:05:34,020 --> 00:05:37,500 J. Lewis? Okay, he's around here. Then there's like, well, 97 00:05:37,710 --> 00:05:39,720 you know, and usually James curriculum will say I 98 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,240 implemented it in five minutes on my own website, and then it 99 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,000 goes back and forth. And then it's like, should it be 32 100 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,330 words, one word, five words per word. And like, I don't know 101 00:05:48,330 --> 00:05:52,560 what's working for me. The the amount of people who are hard of 102 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,470 hearing and people who speak English as a foreign language 103 00:05:55,470 --> 00:05:59,400 have not complained to me. So what are we doing what's going 104 00:05:59,400 --> 00:05:59,970 on here? 105 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:05,490 Dave Jones: This all started with Carl Bondo. Ah, yes. Okay. 106 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,650 Okay. Got, he said. He said he just piped in and said, question 107 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:13,620 about transcripts, have podcasters landed on a final 108 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:17,010 transcription format for podcasting in the wild as the 109 00:06:17,010 --> 00:06:21,120 podcasters jam SRT, with time codes into their show notes. 110 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:26,670 While PC people know podcasters use SRT, start at SRT. 111 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,840 Meanwhile, do HTML, JSON, VTT, and text versions have value in 112 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:35,070 podcasting. Is it being decided for us by big transcript? Or is 113 00:06:35,070 --> 00:06:38,820 this really a UX accessibility issue? That that was what 114 00:06:38,820 --> 00:06:42,210 launched the, you know, six posts of this thread. 115 00:06:42,420 --> 00:06:44,700 Adam Curry: But this carried over from a discussion on GitHub 116 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:48,120 even because I remember Yes, jumping in that that discussion, 117 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,790 just say, hey, while y'all are arguing, this is what people 118 00:06:50,790 --> 00:06:54,060 will this is the UX people are looking at. And I just posted a 119 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:58,320 a Tiktok video to show the people who bam bam bam word, 120 00:06:58,590 --> 00:07:02,430 which I find incredibly exciting to do something. Maybe put it 121 00:07:02,430 --> 00:07:06,750 this way. I see. There's a there's got there's a huge 122 00:07:06,750 --> 00:07:09,990 difference between what we use on the back end and what that 123 00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:14,550 does and how and what the user experience experiences. And 124 00:07:14,610 --> 00:07:20,070 imagine my delight my sheer utter delight. When I saw a pod 125 00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:23,610 friend Martin pop up with a completely new concept. It looks 126 00:07:23,610 --> 00:07:27,300 like DeVore i can i where you and I are divorced, cannot we're 127 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:30,690 having a conversation with little chat bubbles. Whoa, yes, 128 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:33,660 this is what I'm talking about. That's what I care about. 129 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,560 Dave Jones: That thing was beautiful. That is a killer 130 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:38,370 interface. 131 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,210 Adam Curry: Yeah. And so I wonder if there's general 132 00:07:42,210 --> 00:07:47,160 confusion between the two in this in this technology back end 133 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,140 conversation? Because I for what I can read. And Macedon doesn't 134 00:07:52,140 --> 00:07:54,900 do threads really great for me for the way my brain works. 135 00:07:55,350 --> 00:07:58,140 There's what I what I can read and understand it seems like 136 00:07:58,140 --> 00:08:02,760 that there is some flow between what's how you know what format 137 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:08,070 it is, and how that surfaced on the, in the app. And quite 138 00:08:08,070 --> 00:08:13,740 honestly, I find pure closed captions or subtitle formats 139 00:08:13,770 --> 00:08:18,750 pretty boring. Because there's not a there's nothing else going 140 00:08:18,750 --> 00:08:22,800 on on the screen. Now, it's not like you're watching a movie and 141 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,430 you want kind of the subtitles or captions out of the way where 142 00:08:26,430 --> 00:08:29,580 they're easy for you to catch at the bottom of your of your view 143 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:32,880 and still see everything I mean, that could be hyped up it can be 144 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,530 all kinds of stuff can be done with that. 145 00:08:37,169 --> 00:08:39,269 Dave Jones: I think it comes I think there's two issues here. 146 00:08:42,119 --> 00:08:50,759 Per it's word word for word timestamping versus like per 147 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:56,279 line which is what it which is the SRT way. So with JSON 148 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:01,769 transcripts, you can get a timestamp on every single word. 149 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:05,999 So then then you use it I mean, you can do you can imagine that 150 00:09:05,999 --> 00:09:09,749 made this pass it's the most powerful way to go. Because you 151 00:09:09,749 --> 00:09:15,269 can get down to word level accuracy with clips and stuff. 152 00:09:15,269 --> 00:09:19,589 So this this would really just like D script and these do these 153 00:09:19,589 --> 00:09:27,539 digital audio you know these DAW software's will do the will find 154 00:09:27,569 --> 00:09:32,159 help you clip a clip something or do Dave voice edits with the 155 00:09:32,159 --> 00:09:34,559 transcript as your as your editor. Yeah, by 156 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:39,450 Adam Curry: the way, that's what pushes way for good old school 157 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:43,860 waveform What's wrong with you? We use we go ahead, 158 00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:49,830 Dave Jones: you see the matrix we I get you. But like for, but 159 00:09:50,010 --> 00:09:52,620 that that's the Pat light for you can imagine for a phone. 160 00:09:53,130 --> 00:09:55,590 You're gonna get you get a mobile app here and you're gonna 161 00:09:55,590 --> 00:10:00,000 do editing like you're gonna do a clip in a phone. That's PESA 162 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,320 pain in the butt. But if you could clip it based on the, on 163 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,380 the transcript on the words, oh, that would be so much. 164 00:10:07,410 --> 00:10:09,570 Adam Curry: Okay, but we're already now. Okay, so we're 165 00:10:09,570 --> 00:10:13,950 already moving on to something about clipping. And 166 00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:17,310 Dave Jones: but I'm just making a point. Okay, okay, I'm not 167 00:10:17,310 --> 00:10:20,730 moving and I'm moving the conversation, I'm just saying 168 00:10:20,730 --> 00:10:26,400 that like that, that you can see the power of a transcript, word 169 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,450 for word transcript, to let the app know at any moment where the 170 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:35,370 audio is in sync with the transcript. So that that's like 171 00:10:35,370 --> 00:10:37,380 the most powerful part of it. 172 00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:39,480 Adam Curry: I'm with you. Yes, I'm with you. I got you there. 173 00:10:39,510 --> 00:10:42,960 But of course, no one has that system. But I'm happy to run it 174 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:49,980 through a a translator. I would say, you know, having multiple 175 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,860 versions, you know, almost like a, like a multiple alternate 176 00:10:55,860 --> 00:10:59,160 enclosures, I think might be a mistake at this point in the 177 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:04,320 mean. It'd be I mean, if we ever have to output three different 178 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,530 versions, and then have three different MBM, you know what I 179 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:10,620 mean? Like, there's a lot of stuff that that people want 180 00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:11,580 people to do. 181 00:11:12,450 --> 00:11:14,580 Dave Jones: We'll see that okay. So that's the other that's the 182 00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:18,120 other part of this. That's my job. You have that word for 183 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:23,310 word, accuracy debate. And so then you're going to have people 184 00:11:23,310 --> 00:11:27,660 fall down on either side of that, that discussion where they 185 00:11:27,660 --> 00:11:31,050 say, Okay, well, why do we need a whole bunch if word for word 186 00:11:31,050 --> 00:11:34,920 is just simply the best? You can always go lower resolution you 187 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:36,810 can't go higher. And there's another factor in here too. I'm 188 00:11:36,810 --> 00:11:47,520 gonna throw this up. So the, the JSON. The SRT file has been 189 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,650 problematic, especially for the French. 190 00:11:51,660 --> 00:11:54,540 Adam Curry: Stop right there. Who cares if the French Give me 191 00:11:54,540 --> 00:11:54,900 a break? 192 00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,190 Dave Jones: How dare you 193 00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:03,510 Adam Curry: take him along with my con. 194 00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:10,590 Dave Jones: Yes. So that the fridge got really pissed. I 195 00:12:10,590 --> 00:12:12,570 mean, Benjamin Bellamy Well, I 196 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,610 Adam Curry: Well, I didn't realize I missed this whole. 197 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,560 What happened? Why what what? Well, 198 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:20,940 Dave Jones: because because he's upset about the 32 the 32 word 199 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:28,560 limit. And SRT file and this so so SRT, but, 200 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,080 Adam Curry: but it's not a matter of the language is just a 201 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:32,370 matter of the French. 202 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,170 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, it's a matter I'm using Benjamin as a 203 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,810 stand in for quote, the French. 204 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,320 Adam Curry: I didn't know if it was a language thing. Okay. I 205 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,110 got the friend ever bent out of shape. Basically, that's 206 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:47,520 basically their culture. Okay. 207 00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:51,540 Dave Jones: Yes. If you know one French guy, you know all Wow. 208 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:56,190 It's like the it's like the what the reggae. 209 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:01,170 Adam Curry: crack open a Bud Light. All right. Let's go. 210 00:13:02,940 --> 00:13:06,570 Dave Jones: I love you, Benjamin. But see. So the the 211 00:13:06,630 --> 00:13:12,300 the SRT has a line length? Yeah. And because it stands, it just 212 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:16,650 does per line. And so Benjamin was saying he doesn't like the 213 00:13:16,650 --> 00:13:22,860 fact that is a 32. word line length, because it doesn't take 214 00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:28,020 advantage doesn't like, take advantage of other languages 215 00:13:28,020 --> 00:13:31,410 with longer, longer work. Your character says more do Yes, 216 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,530 sure. So which is valid, which is valid, and then But then the 217 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:37,740 app guys came back and they were like, hey, that's fine and all 218 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:41,610 but we have to be able to fit this thing on the screen, like 219 00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:47,220 one line at a time. And if you have 128 words Ulsan you get you 220 00:13:47,220 --> 00:13:49,860 get this tiny little taste, you can't see it right on the 221 00:13:49,860 --> 00:13:53,520 screen. So the word for word accuracy within the JSON 222 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,940 transcript format, lets you avoid that entire debate. You 223 00:13:56,940 --> 00:13:58,620 just fit as many words as you want. 224 00:13:59,610 --> 00:14:01,770 Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, that sounds that sounds reasonable. 225 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:02,460 Yes. 226 00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:05,100 Dave Jones: So you got two ways in which the JSON file format is 227 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:12,330 superior. But at the same time, you know, you you have this 228 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,850 other debate, which is getting mixed in which, which is almost 229 00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:22,590 like subtle asides. It's like under the covers here, which is 230 00:14:23,310 --> 00:14:29,220 the should the namespace dictate the format? Or just the 231 00:14:29,220 --> 00:14:30,030 delivery? 232 00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:33,030 Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Uh, well, I can give you my immediate 233 00:14:34,890 --> 00:14:38,490 thinking is, it should not dictate the format at all. 234 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:39,510 Agreed. 235 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:43,950 Dave Jones: I agree. That's the date the protocol, the protocol 236 00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:46,170 for delivery, not the final format of the theory. 237 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,170 Adam Curry: Agree. Agreed. Not how it would be like saying you 238 00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:49,620 it would 239 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:53,700 Dave Jones: be like the namespace declaring which audio 240 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:56,550 format you need to use right enclosure, right. Got it. Got 241 00:14:56,550 --> 00:15:00,060 it. But I think that's because that was part of the debate. as 242 00:15:00,060 --> 00:15:03,360 well as like, oh, you know, why do we need three of three of 243 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,340 these formats supported in the in the namespace? I think, you 244 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:10,380 know, really, there's always going to be new formats and 245 00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:14,250 things over over time. We should probably that we should probably 246 00:15:14,250 --> 00:15:16,320 make it more clear in the namespace documentation that 247 00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:21,030 those are examples. Not limitation. Okay. 248 00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:22,830 Adam Curry: So a couple questions, some practical 249 00:15:22,830 --> 00:15:25,710 things, because, you know, of course, this has been this 250 00:15:25,710 --> 00:15:28,410 should have probably been done a long time ago, this conversation 251 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:31,860 because a lot of people's processes and things are set up. 252 00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:34,980 And I'm, you know, I'm not sure about everyone, but I know that 253 00:15:34,980 --> 00:15:38,070 I'm pretty set in my ways. I've got stuff going, if I have to 254 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:40,380 change, what will a break? You know, there's all these 255 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:43,080 questions. And then does that mean? Oh, just to make sure I 256 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,570 got to put four different ones in this is this is what I'm 257 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:48,150 always worried about? Yep. 258 00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,240 Dave Jones: Well, I mean, the long time ago thing like this, 259 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,350 this is another reason why it's good on occasion to slow down 260 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,670 and go at a slower pace. Because sometimes you can't anticipate 261 00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:05,490 these sorts of things over time. Now, the line length thing has 262 00:16:05,490 --> 00:16:10,080 been debated for a while. But then like some sometimes there 263 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:14,550 crops up a certain strain of thinking down the line, let's 264 00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:16,830 just say six months down the line of a thing that you're 265 00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:20,760 doing. It's like, Huh, well, now that's an interesting thing that 266 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,320 I never thought of. So like, sometimes you I mean, I guess 267 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,020 speed here can be is an enemy as well. 268 00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:31,140 Adam Curry: Well, just so you know, speed does not kill the 269 00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:38,100 sudden lack of speed. That's what I would I would caution 270 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,760 people then. The one thing I don't like when I see this 271 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,390 debate, is when someone says, Well, you know, only half a 272 00:16:45,390 --> 00:16:48,570 percent of all podcasts actually have transcripts. So what are we 273 00:16:48,570 --> 00:16:51,930 talking about? Yeah. And that's a very accurate depiction of the 274 00:16:51,930 --> 00:16:53,220 voice whoever that was. 275 00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:56,490 Dave Jones: I've heard that guy. Yeah. Yeah, I know that guy. And 276 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:57,210 that always 277 00:16:57,210 --> 00:17:00,630 Adam Curry: find is that's such a that's such a buzzkill. When 278 00:17:00,630 --> 00:17:02,820 someone does that, it's like, come on. 279 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,130 Dave Jones: What I always think about when I hear people say 280 00:17:05,130 --> 00:17:10,230 there's only only such and such percent of podcasts do X I'm not 281 00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:13,770 thinking is always immediately will only only, like less than 282 00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:15,720 1% of podcasts are any good anyway. 283 00:17:17,250 --> 00:17:19,230 Adam Curry: And you're listening to it right here. Yeah. 284 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,199 Dave Jones: So I mean, like, okay. Oh, 285 00:17:25,260 --> 00:17:29,130 Adam Curry: okay. All right. So I guess the real question is, 286 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,820 well, maybe we should bring in our in our boardroom guests, 287 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:36,210 because this is automatically going to flow it over into some 288 00:17:36,210 --> 00:17:39,630 other conversations and they have some more new stuff that 289 00:17:39,630 --> 00:17:44,700 they've deployed for a while that that, obviously, where am I 290 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:48,930 here? That needs to be discussed, because it's also 291 00:17:48,930 --> 00:17:52,440 kind of exciting stuff. And they've been in the boardroom 292 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:58,200 before. It's very nice to have them back. They are without a 293 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,190 doubt one of the biggest supporters of podcasting 2.0 The 294 00:18:02,190 --> 00:18:05,310 entire project from the get go. Ladies and gentlemen, please 295 00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:08,520 welcome two esteemed Gentlemen, gentlemen. The Honorable 296 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,490 misfits, Kevin Finn and Tom Rossi from Buzzsprout. 297 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:18,030 Kevin Finn: Heck, yeah. This whole, like scrape onions on 298 00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:18,510 this stuff. 299 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,020 Adam Curry: We didn't bring any here for opinions just to 300 00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:22,410 promote. 301 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,690 Dave Jones: I mean, it's fair to fair to categorize you guys as 302 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,850 ambassadors from the fortress of freedom. I love it. I love it. 303 00:18:33,630 --> 00:18:36,300 Of course, you know, fortress of freedom, which is in the 304 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:41,610 basement of the Hall of Justice. So yes. So I mean, what are you 305 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,350 what is your yelling opinion? 306 00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:46,650 Kevin Finn: Oh, my gosh, well, first shadow ban. I'm trying to 307 00:18:46,650 --> 00:18:48,720 tell you the word over and over again. I gotta get it. Okay. Oh, 308 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:48,900 yeah. 309 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,010 Adam Curry: I don't think shadow ban. I disagree that it's not 310 00:18:53,010 --> 00:18:55,830 shadow banned. I've just I'm not playing along with the with the 311 00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:58,500 money game. So I get deprioritized. 312 00:18:58,830 --> 00:19:03,360 Kevin Finn: I agree. I just wanted to help. Dave is looking 313 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:08,790 for Thank you, even if it was the wrong word. Yes. Um, so I 314 00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:12,720 got the transcript stuff. Um, I think you're 315 00:19:13,470 --> 00:19:15,690 Tom Rossi: telling the origin of the 32 character limit? 316 00:19:16,830 --> 00:19:18,120 Kevin Finn: Oh, you know where it came from? 317 00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:20,430 Adam Curry: Now, you gotta you guys did transcripts very early 318 00:19:20,430 --> 00:19:23,220 on. I mean, you've supported the namespace and everything from 319 00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:26,640 you know, almost from the get go. So I'm not quite sure if it 320 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,220 was the chicken or the egg. I know that all of a sudden, I was 321 00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:35,220 using otter.ai, which is really really weak. in its in its, you 322 00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:39,480 know, in its AI capability. But I'm just using it it kind of 323 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,480 works. I know the workflow, but I think it's it's all I've 324 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,240 always had put SRT was that not the genesis of what we were 325 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:45,690 using? 326 00:19:46,139 --> 00:19:48,599 Kevin Finn: It is? Yeah, you're exactly right. And that is where 327 00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:50,999 the 32 character limit came in here because that was their 328 00:19:50,999 --> 00:19:54,809 default when you exported an SRT from otter. Their defaults were 329 00:19:54,809 --> 00:19:58,589 two lines. 32 characters, right. So there's no standard around 330 00:19:58,589 --> 00:20:02,459 that you can make an SRT 64 whatever number you want, and as 331 00:20:02,459 --> 00:20:04,679 many lines as you want, but because there was no standard 332 00:20:04,679 --> 00:20:06,629 way to choose something, and a lot of people were using audit 333 00:20:06,629 --> 00:20:08,729 at the time, so we just said, Let's just use whatever their 334 00:20:08,729 --> 00:20:09,449 default is. 335 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:14,310 Tom Rossi: Okay? And Dave made a really good point, which is you 336 00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:18,540 can always go to a lower fidelity, but you can't go to a 337 00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:23,010 higher fidelity. And so that was, you know, the issue with, 338 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,730 you know, some of the conversation like the JSON 339 00:20:26,910 --> 00:20:29,580 allows you to just you could do it per word, or you could do it 340 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:33,570 per phrase. It just gives you a higher fidelity transcript. And 341 00:20:33,570 --> 00:20:36,900 I think from there, you can go to any SRT. So for Buzzsprout, 342 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:40,980 we can go to any SRT, as long as we have a high enough fidelity 343 00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:43,410 transcript to you know, to get there. 344 00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:47,220 Adam Curry: Well, is SRT, limited to the 32 characters. Is 345 00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:48,060 that the is that the 346 00:20:48,060 --> 00:20:51,000 Tom Rossi: problem? No, like Kevin said, there's, there's no, 347 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,460 there's no standard for you how 348 00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:56,190 Dave Jones: the problem though, here's the problem that the 349 00:20:56,190 --> 00:21:00,600 student the SRT file itself, is can be anything but in the 350 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,940 namespace, it says, SRT, Max characters per line 32. Grand 351 00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:08,910 gotcha, right. And this, this is what helpful 352 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:11,490 Kevin Finn: to be able to provide some sort of structure 353 00:21:11,490 --> 00:21:14,340 for app developers, so they would know what to expect. If 354 00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:17,760 they download one SRT and 64 characters in line, and then 355 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,790 they downloaded Another one had 32, then their code becomes much 356 00:21:20,790 --> 00:21:22,650 more complicated trying to figure out how to display this 357 00:21:22,650 --> 00:21:23,010 stuff, 358 00:21:23,370 --> 00:21:24,090 Adam Curry: right? 359 00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:26,580 Dave Jones: I'm just gonna we just namespace Should we just go 360 00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:30,270 in there and say in just parenthetical Reto says Max 361 00:21:30,270 --> 00:21:34,200 characters for line 32, in parentheses out to the side, 362 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:35,610 just a suggestion. 363 00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:42,300 Adam Curry: I'm looking at otter and otter, you can output one to 364 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:46,890 10 lines as your output option, and Max characters five to 200. 365 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:49,950 So they don't even get you to the one word resolution. 366 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:53,370 Kevin Finn: Know that their default? So their standard, if 367 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:56,160 you haven't customized it before their default was 32. And two, 368 00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:59,670 yes. Correct. And then you can change it from there. Yeah. And 369 00:21:59,670 --> 00:22:00,060 so 370 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,200 Tom Rossi: the transcripts we're seeing now are much higher 371 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,860 fidelity down to the to the word, and that's where the JSON 372 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:11,460 makes more sense, it's a better format for being able to share 373 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:12,240 transcripts. 374 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,870 Adam Curry: All right, but so then, so all I'm saying is, 375 00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:19,530 there's no JSON output on otter, so I'm gonna have to make a 376 00:22:19,530 --> 00:22:23,280 change, I'm happy to do. But you know, one little change, you 377 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,070 know, you do a couple of degrees on the rudder, and this whole 378 00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:29,310 ship has to go and it takes a long time for people to get into 379 00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:32,070 it. So I'm just saying caution of whatever we decide, or 380 00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:33,300 whatever we want to get to. 381 00:22:33,929 --> 00:22:35,489 Tom Rossi: Well, that's the beauty of the way the specs 382 00:22:35,489 --> 00:22:37,769 written is you can, you can do them all. So if you go to a 383 00:22:37,769 --> 00:22:40,769 Buzzsprout transcript here, you'll see them in any format we 384 00:22:40,769 --> 00:22:43,229 can support. So even if you upload an SRT, we'll make it 385 00:22:43,229 --> 00:22:45,659 available as an SRT and as JSON. 386 00:22:46,290 --> 00:22:48,270 Adam Curry: No, while you guys are just Goody goodies of the 387 00:22:48,270 --> 00:22:49,080 class, aren't you? 388 00:22:50,670 --> 00:22:53,130 Tom Rossi: Hey, I thought this is humblebrag time. 389 00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:59,520 Dave Jones: So who does who does word for word JSON? Like what? 390 00:22:59,910 --> 00:23:00,330 Plus 391 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:04,980 Tom Rossi: descript is one that we integrate with? Currently, 392 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:06,990 that gives us the per word? 393 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,170 Kevin Finn: And you can also get out of whisper? Well, whisper 394 00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:12,900 No, that's, yeah, I mean, you can just run whisper on your own 395 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:18,780 computer and punch out in JSON. So I mean, AI is changing 396 00:23:18,810 --> 00:23:22,440 transcription. So like otter Rev. For years, they were just 397 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,530 looking at the waveform itself and trying to pick up like the 398 00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:30,600 audio artifacts and figure out words from them. And now AI is 399 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,360 improving upon that, because now they can use once they 400 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,940 transcribe the first 10 minutes of an hour long episode, they 401 00:23:35,940 --> 00:23:38,280 can look at the first 10 minutes and start guessing what words 402 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,140 are coming next. Even if the artifacts are a little bit 403 00:23:40,140 --> 00:23:44,190 messy, or the the audio is not really cleaned. So AI is helping 404 00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:47,610 transcription get more accurate. And that's what we're seeing 405 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,010 with things like whisper and stuff like that. And the output 406 00:23:50,010 --> 00:23:52,620 from those, like, when you go to a web service or something, 407 00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:55,440 you'll be limited by the UI. But if you download install, whisper 408 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,870 on your own servers, run it yourself, you can get whatever 409 00:23:57,870 --> 00:23:58,710 you want out, but I 410 00:23:58,710 --> 00:24:01,860 Adam Curry: say just common denominator. I would say the 411 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:04,230 most people are just going to use whatever their their 412 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:07,800 podcasting host uses. I mean, if I'm if I'm completely 413 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,890 independent, which I am, then that's that's my issue to go 414 00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:13,410 figure that out. Right? I mean, that's, that's just how it 415 00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:16,050 works. If you either go with with the big flow and the big 416 00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:19,560 ships, or you do a jeroni, and you roll along, however you want 417 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,640 to. So I just thought I just thought it was interesting, this 418 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:29,460 long, long thread like Oh, okay. And it really we don't have in 419 00:24:29,460 --> 00:24:33,120 this group. We don't have the app developers. And what I want 420 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,570 to see is what Martin was doing. I know how do we I guess that 421 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,770 the answer is JSON word for word. That's the most flexible 422 00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:45,300 for app developers and people who make experiences to have 423 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,080 that resolution and they can always go up or go down or 424 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,480 whatever they want for whatever the app however they want to 425 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,930 display it. Yeah, that's what I think. All right, yeah. 426 00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:01,680 Dave Jones: Israel Apart from so close, 427 00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:02,880 Adam Curry: issue closed, 428 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:06,450 Dave Jones: what I'm going to open it again with me for 429 00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:12,840 another reason musics match this company, they click, they seem 430 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,690 to have done their luck involved with lyrics and stuff in USI X, 431 00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:25,740 ma tch musiXmatch. They, I know that they are contacting podcast 432 00:25:25,770 --> 00:25:32,670 apps to try to get them to integrate their transcripts into 433 00:25:32,670 --> 00:25:37,590 the app. And I guess I'm a little conflicted. I mean, 434 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:40,650 there's some because the the transcript is not in the RSS 435 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:44,850 feed. So this would be coming from a third party service. And 436 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:51,570 which initially made me I don't know, I didn't like that. But I 437 00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:54,870 don't know that I necessarily see a huge problem with it easy, 438 00:25:54,930 --> 00:25:58,560 either. I don't know. Yeah, as you may have thoughts on that, 439 00:25:58,590 --> 00:26:01,950 because I don't like the fact that it's not in the sound. 440 00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:04,350 Adam Curry: That to me is exactly the same as calling 441 00:26:04,590 --> 00:26:08,190 YouTube podcasts. There's no feed going in no feed coming 442 00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:13,680 out. Now. I'm against that it's outside the spec. Yeah. Okay. 443 00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:15,990 That's, and I understand, I think it's great that they're 444 00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:21,630 offering that. But why do they why? I'm not quite sure. First 445 00:26:21,630 --> 00:26:24,270 of all, what guess what's their business model? How do they what 446 00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:27,000 how does that work? I mean, that I presume they're not offering 447 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:27,780 it for free. 448 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,960 Dave Jones: Yeah, that and that was my thing is I don't I don't 449 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,630 understand where the they're there. They seem to be VC 450 00:26:33,630 --> 00:26:39,120 funded. And so I don't know what the play is. And I know that I 451 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:42,960 would rather that if there would make more sense and be more in 452 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,800 the spirit of, of openness, if they would do integrations with 453 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:49,980 with hosting companies, if they want to provide that service, 454 00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:52,980 and then just get to things into the feed the proper way. 455 00:26:54,660 --> 00:26:58,770 Adam Curry: Yeah, I mean, this is this is exactly where it 456 00:26:58,770 --> 00:27:03,480 comes down to with open podcasting versus everything 457 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:09,060 else. And, and particularly if it's, to me, it sounds like 458 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:12,180 he's, he found it, okay, we're going to get as much market 459 00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:16,230 share as we can. And so I can see where it's very attractive 460 00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:19,500 to a podcast app to have transcripts for everything that 461 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:24,330 runs through their engine, which is fine. But if I come up, if I 462 00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:27,960 come along and say, Here's my transcript, and here's how I'd 463 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,850 like you to show it, then I think that needs to be 464 00:27:29,850 --> 00:27:33,630 respected. Let's put it that way. Yeah. And then you'll find 465 00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:36,000 out when the bill comes, the bill always comes from the VC 466 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,800 guys one way or the other, the bill will come. 467 00:27:39,870 --> 00:27:43,530 Dave Jones: Nathan said that they do host integration. But 468 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,520 you and I know that but me elite in at least one case that I know 469 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,840 of they were they were talking directly to the app developer to 470 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,250 say, hey, we can provide your transcripts for, for for 471 00:27:56,250 --> 00:28:00,120 episodes that are not that don't have a transcript in the feed. I 472 00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:00,330 guess 473 00:28:01,050 --> 00:28:06,480 Adam Curry: I can see that as being valid. But beware. If I 474 00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:11,400 let's say I didn't have a transcript in my feed, then now 475 00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:16,410 in app a, there's transcript running and then brought to you 476 00:28:16,410 --> 00:28:19,290 by Bud Light, you know, then, okay, you can then you're gonna 477 00:28:19,290 --> 00:28:20,010 piss me off. 478 00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:25,530 Dave Jones: This train script, it's like, it's like on a sport. 479 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:28,200 It's like on sports when they you know, the end zone is 480 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,580 brought to you by every niche, right? 481 00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:32,640 Adam Curry: I mean, that's, that's where we just got to be 482 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,000 careful. That's all No, but I don't see your problem. In 483 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,930 general, if if an app wants to have transcripts for all of 484 00:28:39,930 --> 00:28:42,960 their I mean, for a while they're out and don't just 485 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,500 fountain even show transcripts at all, I can't find them. I 486 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:47,850 don't think they show transcripts. 487 00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:49,860 Dave Jones: didn't know 488 00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:51,720 Adam Curry: they were doing their own thing if you wanted to 489 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,510 clip and then you'd have to wait two hours for the transcript, a 490 00:28:54,510 --> 00:28:57,750 finished lease with my shows my overly long shows, and then you 491 00:28:57,750 --> 00:29:01,380 can get a transcript and they could clip it at that. I don't 492 00:29:01,380 --> 00:29:05,730 know where that went, if that's still around or not. But I can 493 00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:09,480 see where a service like that makes it attractive. Just please 494 00:29:10,110 --> 00:29:13,770 respect with respect to source of truth if my feed comes along 495 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,010 and and I have my transcript in there, you've got to respect it. 496 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,870 Dave Jones: Kill it. Yeah. Kill that kill the 497 00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:20,190 Adam Curry: guilty thing? Yeah. 498 00:29:20,220 --> 00:29:26,520 Dave Jones: Yeah, I agree. It does. Kevin does. Does 499 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,860 Buzzsprout have the Obamas yet have y'all had a shot at them? I 500 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:29,400 mean, they seem to be 501 00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:34,890 Adam Curry: by the way, if I can just say no, I just want 502 00:29:34,890 --> 00:29:37,080 everyone to understand what kind of deal this is. This seems to 503 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,350 be some kind of confusion. This is a library deal. Right? This 504 00:29:40,350 --> 00:29:43,050 is the old stuff. This is nothing new is now the Obamas 505 00:29:43,530 --> 00:29:46,050 are creating new stuff and it's going to be on a cast. This is 506 00:29:46,050 --> 00:29:50,970 all the old stuff. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yes, yes. And I 507 00:29:50,970 --> 00:29:53,640 think eat and they they still have their audible deal. 508 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,840 Audible. has, you know, we'll have them exclusive for X amount 509 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,370 of time and then a cast can sell them in the on the open market. 510 00:30:02,970 --> 00:30:06,930 So, the Bruce Springsteen and Barack Obama are not going to 511 00:30:06,930 --> 00:30:10,020 work for a cash add money. Okay. I'm just going to tell you that 512 00:30:10,020 --> 00:30:10,680 right now. 513 00:30:12,599 --> 00:30:15,179 Dave Jones: I have to correct James on that as he made a 514 00:30:15,179 --> 00:30:18,689 mention that this is it's not about money it's about they just 515 00:30:18,689 --> 00:30:23,849 want to have openness to get their ideas out there. I can 516 00:30:23,849 --> 00:30:27,809 tell you that Barack Obama throws $100,000 birthday 517 00:30:27,809 --> 00:30:32,819 parties. Bleep guys, this is definitely about money. Is this 518 00:30:32,849 --> 00:30:36,869 the show was a dog to man. It's just horrible. I'm sure they're 519 00:30:36,869 --> 00:30:40,199 shuffling around because nobody wants it. Well, I wouldn't 520 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,490 Adam Curry: want to say that back to you. The Hollywood 521 00:30:41,490 --> 00:30:44,610 Reporter had had a pretty good, pretty good report on it. And 522 00:30:44,610 --> 00:30:46,920 they said Higher Ground production company founded by 523 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,460 Brock, Michelle Obama has struck its latest audio deal with 524 00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:53,220 podcasting platform, a cast a cast will handle ad sales and 525 00:30:53,220 --> 00:30:59,100 distribution for hire grounds library of podcasts. So it's 526 00:30:59,130 --> 00:31:02,190 it's all the stuff that was already on Spotify, et cetera, 527 00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:02,790 et cetera. 528 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,460 Kevin Finn: Was it exclusive to Spotify before this deal? 529 00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:10,200 Adam Curry: Yeah, well, yes. Except Michelle Obama, they ran 530 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,960 into such problems with filling the inventory, that they 531 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,900 actually opened that up for a while that Michelle Obama 532 00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:20,040 podcast was certainly available everywhere. If it's not still is 533 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,610 it was because it's boring. But yeah. 534 00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:27,299 Tom Rossi: Well, yeah. So as we probably should look at it as a 535 00:31:27,299 --> 00:31:31,019 win for open podcasting, right, is that they tried to keep it in 536 00:31:31,019 --> 00:31:33,749 a closed ecosystem, and it wasn't able to accomplish what 537 00:31:33,749 --> 00:31:36,929 they wanted, or whatever that might be. And so now they're 538 00:31:36,929 --> 00:31:39,719 coming out into the, to the better waters that we promote 539 00:31:39,719 --> 00:31:40,379 all the time. 540 00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:43,620 Adam Curry: Podcast, if anything, it's a huge, well, 541 00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:46,680 it's great PR for a cast. I'm sure they can use it. And that's 542 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,630 why they're spinning it kind of like yeah, oh, yeah. They're 543 00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:51,750 coming to us now. Okay. Yeah, the library has been dropped off 544 00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:56,280 at the front door in a in a cardboard box. But at the same 545 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:05,340 time, it's a PR disaster for Spotify. I think. Yeah. I don't 546 00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:07,650 Tom Rossi: think they lost really not a win for Spotify, 547 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,350 because it shows that Spotify wasn't they had this great asset 548 00:32:10,350 --> 00:32:12,510 that they weren't able to capitalize on. 549 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,280 Adam Curry: Yeah, I guess what do you need every part of the 550 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,040 ecosystem to make money on advertising? As far as I'm 551 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,690 concerned? I think you need more than just one player, which is 552 00:32:24,690 --> 00:32:27,210 what what their intent was all along. And that didn't work. And 553 00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:30,840 then everybody bailed with parachutes made of various 554 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,650 degrees of metal. And we'll see how they do. 555 00:32:36,270 --> 00:32:38,760 Dave Jones: All right, Tom, I get we get talking about open 556 00:32:39,450 --> 00:32:44,640 subscriptions. Subscriptions. Yes. So Buzzsprout, bus routes, 557 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,310 doing subscriptions. But man you've been talking about? 558 00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:52,200 Conversely, you know, converting what you've got to something 559 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,490 open that is implementable as a spec across across anybody who 560 00:32:56,490 --> 00:32:57,240 wants to do it. 561 00:32:58,380 --> 00:33:00,930 Kevin Finn: Yeah. Am I wrong? Or is this this is namespace talk, 562 00:33:00,930 --> 00:33:01,260 right? 563 00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:03,450 Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. Oops, namespace talk. 564 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:07,500 Adam Curry: Excuse me here, but it's not hot namespace talk. 565 00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,380 Okay, there's four dudes here. If you're not going to get no 566 00:33:10,380 --> 00:33:14,940 hot namespace toggle single for me. Let's see it. Let's see how 567 00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:17,370 heated you can get it. And then we'll roll that in. 568 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,510 Dave Jones: Given hands, and now 569 00:33:21,510 --> 00:33:24,840 Unknown: it's time for some hot namespace 570 00:33:25,290 --> 00:33:27,090 Dave Jones: have been turned on the Aural Exciter? I don't know 571 00:33:27,090 --> 00:33:37,680 much. Let's see. So the the spec that we sort of had in mind that 572 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,970 we've been rolling around with for a while ended up being very 573 00:33:41,970 --> 00:33:47,250 similar to what y'all did. And so you know, the ideas being 574 00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:51,750 that you would have a, you'd have a single feed, and the feed 575 00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:55,260 would have the subscription content in it. So you don't have 576 00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:59,580 to have like two feeds like a private feed that nobody's, you 577 00:33:59,580 --> 00:34:04,440 know, like, you know, everything's in the feed. And 578 00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:07,170 anyways, y'all y'all y'all did it in. I think the only real 579 00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:11,520 difference really was that we were thinking more in terms of 580 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,690 infrastructure, y'all is you sort of took a web, sort of a 581 00:34:15,690 --> 00:34:18,510 web first handshake type approach. Did you want to like 582 00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:20,970 run through it real quick on a technical level, and just say 583 00:34:20,970 --> 00:34:23,340 what exactly y'all did and how it works? 584 00:34:25,020 --> 00:34:27,450 Tom Rossi: Sure, sure. The way the way that Buzzsprout 585 00:34:27,450 --> 00:34:32,340 subscriptions works, we actually put the premium content in the 586 00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:36,600 RSS feed with you know, kind of as like a little teaser of 587 00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:38,970 there's an there's an episode that you could get access to if 588 00:34:38,970 --> 00:34:45,000 you wanted to support the show and get access to it. Then you 589 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,160 can hit that same RSS feed but pass in a token, or you could 590 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,460 think of it as just it is a private RSS feed. But the URL is 591 00:34:53,460 --> 00:34:56,370 the same as the normal RSS, but it also includes a token to 592 00:34:56,370 --> 00:34:59,370 uniquely identify the listener. So that way you can verify that 593 00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:02,130 they have an act to a subscription, and then all of 594 00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:05,490 that content will be unlocked. So you can see it all in your 595 00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:10,440 private RSS feed. So what you and I were talking about was how 596 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,160 can we make this more of a standard that other podcast 597 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,520 hosts could follow, and also podcast players could take 598 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,920 advantage of. So that way, you know, it's not a great 599 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,140 experience right now, in Apple two, you know, take that RSS 600 00:35:25,140 --> 00:35:27,990 feed and drop it in, like, we could make it better, we could 601 00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:31,050 make it easier through just a link right from the RSS feed 602 00:35:31,050 --> 00:35:34,020 that takes you directly to verify that you have ownership 603 00:35:34,050 --> 00:35:36,270 or that you have a private RSS feed, and then it redirects you 604 00:35:36,270 --> 00:35:39,930 back to that private RSS feed. So that's kind of what what what 605 00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:40,860 we've been talking about. 606 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,250 Dave Jones: So here was my experience. The first time I did 607 00:35:44,250 --> 00:35:47,100 this the first time I tried it with a with a with a Buzzsprout 608 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:52,920 subscription feed. And the thing is, I was on cast ematic. And it 609 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,140 was pod news, upon Us Weekly Review. So this was not it 610 00:35:58,140 --> 00:36:01,050 wasn't subscription, but they it wasn't like private, private 611 00:36:01,050 --> 00:36:05,880 content that you had to unlock. But it was subscription enabled. 612 00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:12,810 So what had happened was James had put the subscription page 613 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:18,180 URL for the web, sort of web based subscription mechanism, he 614 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:21,750 had put that into the funding tag. So at the bottom of cast 615 00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:26,550 ematic, when I'm listening to the episode, Franco has the 616 00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:31,140 little funding tag icon there. So I tap it, I didn't even 617 00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:33,720 really know that this was going to happen. I'm just kind of like 618 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,560 intuitively, just trying this figure this out. I hit the 619 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:43,380 funding Tag button. It opens a web view, a web view in Casta 620 00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:46,140 Matic, and there's the subscription page right there. 621 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,170 And it's like, you know, how much do you want to donate? Do 622 00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:51,990 you want to donate three bucks, five bucks, 10 bucks a month? 623 00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:55,320 And I was like, Okay, I'll do 10 bucks. I later changed it three 624 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:01,410 bucks, because, you know, it's the so I went to I did the 10 625 00:37:01,410 --> 00:37:07,740 bucks. And one of the options for paying was Apple Pay. So I'm 626 00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:10,290 like, Okay, it's cool. I double click the little double click 627 00:37:10,290 --> 00:37:13,530 the power button, do the Apple Pay checkout. And it's like, 628 00:37:13,530 --> 00:37:16,290 okay, great, you're done. And then the WebView closes. And 629 00:37:16,290 --> 00:37:20,370 I'm, I'm back in, I'm back in the out, I never left the app, 630 00:37:20,370 --> 00:37:23,490 really, from the experience. Technically, I did. But 631 00:37:24,030 --> 00:37:30,090 experience was I didn't. So that I think that was all enabled by 632 00:37:30,090 --> 00:37:36,480 the fact that the signup screen, so to speak, the signup page was 633 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,240 in the funding tag. But if you were if we're doing this as a 634 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:48,420 complete open subscription sort of idea, then that probably that 635 00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:53,310 link to do the subscription. If it's a UI, Web UI based, you 636 00:37:53,310 --> 00:37:57,360 know, you are just a URL on the web, you'd probably be moved 637 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,380 into this or probably be moved it somewhere else into the feed 638 00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:04,290 where it makes more sense, I would think, because the funding 639 00:38:04,290 --> 00:38:06,570 tag is too is like loosely connected, good 640 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,020 Tom Rossi: the way the way that we did subscriptions, you can do 641 00:38:10,050 --> 00:38:13,140 premium content, or you don't have to do premium content. So 642 00:38:13,140 --> 00:38:16,230 if you don't do premium content, then the funding tag does 643 00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:18,900 exactly what we want to do, right? If you want to support 644 00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:22,050 the show, you can click on the link that's in your funding tag, 645 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,560 pick your amount, and you're off to the races, if it's premium 646 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,130 content that feels like something different. And that's 647 00:38:29,130 --> 00:38:32,010 where I think we should introduce another tag, which 648 00:38:32,010 --> 00:38:36,120 would be some type of authorization URL, 649 00:38:37,140 --> 00:38:38,670 Adam Curry: private modified Spotify tag, how about 650 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:43,050 Tom Rossi: to be able to access to premium content for that RSS 651 00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:43,380 feed? 652 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,520 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's a good point. So so if you have this, 653 00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:50,580 if you have content premium content, where you have to pay 654 00:38:50,580 --> 00:38:55,110 for it, to hit to listen to it, then it then that that link to 655 00:38:55,110 --> 00:38:57,960 buy it should be in some, like you said, it should be in this 656 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,350 own tag, or somewhere else that makes more sense than just 657 00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:02,970 funding because fundings disconnected, 658 00:39:03,060 --> 00:39:05,730 Tom Rossi: but the player needs to hear it needs to hear 659 00:39:05,730 --> 00:39:09,930 something back from the whoever is going to authorize charge the 660 00:39:09,930 --> 00:39:14,220 credit card, verify the payment, whatever. And so like cast 661 00:39:14,220 --> 00:39:17,640 ematic, for example, would need to hear back what is the private 662 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,230 RSS feed. And so that's where I think if we could introduce into 663 00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:26,460 the namespace, some way of doing web hooks, some type of standard 664 00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:30,300 for doing web hooks, we could use that same methodology for 665 00:39:30,450 --> 00:39:34,410 the verifying ownership of a podcast where, you know, because 666 00:39:34,410 --> 00:39:36,990 he kind of got the conversation got derailed when it started to 667 00:39:36,990 --> 00:39:40,290 get into Oh off. And that's kind of a complicated structure. We 668 00:39:40,290 --> 00:39:43,440 could do something so much simpler and just do a web hook, 669 00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:48,030 where we, you, they make a request to the API, we verify 670 00:39:48,030 --> 00:39:50,400 that they have ownership and then we just hit the web hook 671 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,610 and pass in, you know, the parameter to let them know here. 672 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,550 Yeah, they're verified or we let them know here's the private RSS 673 00:39:56,550 --> 00:40:00,120 feed, rather than, you know, building too too much. Some 674 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,660 infrastructure for the players to implement. I like that 675 00:40:03,660 --> 00:40:07,800 Adam Curry: idea of can we just have a general system like that 676 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,760 that is, is an authorization system with a web hook for 677 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,050 anything that we might need? 678 00:40:15,389 --> 00:40:17,099 Kevin Finn: Yeah, I mean, I think so we're talking about, 679 00:40:17,129 --> 00:40:19,559 we're just talking about a generic callback system, and 680 00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:22,799 then letting people get creative about how they want to use it. 681 00:40:22,950 --> 00:40:26,070 Adam Curry: And it can be any payment system, any any type of 682 00:40:26,370 --> 00:40:29,280 that that makes a lot, which would also be great, just for 683 00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:34,320 general verification. This is my feed, right? Yep. Yep. 684 00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:39,870 Tom Rossi: Host and say, and then basically provide the URL. 685 00:40:39,870 --> 00:40:43,020 So for example, let's say that it was a verification tag. So 686 00:40:43,020 --> 00:40:45,330 you put in the URL, in this case, it would be a Buzzsprout 687 00:40:45,330 --> 00:40:50,430 URL. So now when they click on that, or the player goes to that 688 00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:53,880 link, and pulls up the page to display to the user, the user 689 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,310 would then login to their Buzzsprout account. And then it 690 00:40:56,310 --> 00:40:59,970 verifies that they're the owner and then calls the callback URL 691 00:40:59,970 --> 00:41:02,040 and passes in, yes, they've been authorized. 692 00:41:03,060 --> 00:41:05,070 Adam Curry: I think something like that is pretty interesting. 693 00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:07,890 Tom Rossi: And then you could you could do that same thing for 694 00:41:07,950 --> 00:41:11,490 the premium content, where now it goes out to the the host, it 695 00:41:11,490 --> 00:41:15,450 goes to Buzzsprout, they log in, and then we send back the RSS 696 00:41:15,450 --> 00:41:18,510 feed the private RSS feed this unique to that user, so they can 697 00:41:18,510 --> 00:41:20,010 get access to the premium content. 698 00:41:20,190 --> 00:41:22,830 Adam Curry: Boot. Dave says you'll be right back, he had to 699 00:41:22,830 --> 00:41:28,020 reboot. But that's good, because that gives me complete control 700 00:41:28,020 --> 00:41:31,890 of the board. I think, the obviously you know that I'm I 701 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,010 the idea of premium content. I just like I don't like it. But 702 00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:37,110 that's okay. Because I don't want to stand in the way of 703 00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:40,440 anything. That's why I love the concept of the web hook that can 704 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,720 be used for because I would also I would love to have a way to 705 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,270 just yeah, we got your back brother just support any podcast 706 00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:56,640 on a weekly or a monthly basis? Or, I mean, seriously, even how 707 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,990 cool would it be is if my app detects that my favorite podcast 708 00:42:00,990 --> 00:42:05,640 has released a new episode that I automatically fire off a 709 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,670 payment? I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I would really 710 00:42:08,670 --> 00:42:11,190 love to have, whether it's premium or not. In my case, it 711 00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:14,190 wouldn't be by like the idea of Oh, am new, new episode, 712 00:42:14,430 --> 00:42:17,070 immediate support? And it would and of course, I would like to 713 00:42:17,070 --> 00:42:22,740 do with Satoshis instead of with, with any fiat currency, if 714 00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:27,090 we can accomplish all that with a general web hook system that 715 00:42:27,090 --> 00:42:29,790 we put into namespace, man, you got a champion in May? 716 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,090 Tom Rossi: I think it would, I think what we would be able to 717 00:42:33,090 --> 00:42:37,830 do is just define for each of the different scenarios, what 718 00:42:37,830 --> 00:42:40,950 would the web hook response look like? So for example, was 719 00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:44,160 authorization, they would get a JSON response back that says 720 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,040 authorization true, you know, we define the parameter and the 721 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,620 values that are going to come back, if it was a request for 722 00:42:49,620 --> 00:42:53,340 private RSS feed, what comes back is, you know, private RSS 723 00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:56,550 feed and then the URL, but we would just define those 724 00:42:56,550 --> 00:43:00,120 standards, and now all the players could implement it 725 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,420 however they want. And all the hosts could implement any way 726 00:43:03,420 --> 00:43:04,350 they want. I liked that 727 00:43:04,350 --> 00:43:06,660 Adam Curry: idea that I don't see any downside to it. I only 728 00:43:06,660 --> 00:43:07,830 see wins. 729 00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:10,530 Kevin Finn: Yeah, well, Adam, what's your take on private rssb 730 00:43:10,530 --> 00:43:14,790 It's not like premium content, but like, whatever. Toyota wants 731 00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:17,700 to do a podcast for all their employees only. So they need 732 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:18,540 some way to authorize 733 00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:22,950 Adam Curry: I mean, that's, I think that to me, is a is a, you 734 00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:25,410 know, that's a sale for you. Right, you know, you'll be 735 00:43:25,410 --> 00:43:28,530 selling to Toyota that capability if you can make it 736 00:43:28,530 --> 00:43:35,340 work in every podcast app. Fantastic. I completely 737 00:43:35,850 --> 00:43:40,860 understand and, and, and agree with doing that. Just from a 738 00:43:40,860 --> 00:43:44,760 business perspective, from open podcasting perspective, from 739 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,890 what I think works and seeing that every you know, every 740 00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:53,280 single stream we went down this road with streaming television, 741 00:43:53,820 --> 00:43:58,260 everyone's losing, everybody is losing Paramount lost $3 742 00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:03,060 billion, they've got content everyone's losing this game. 743 00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:06,960 Mainly because you get exactly to the point which brought us 744 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,620 here in the first place. Is no one can afford to have a 745 00:44:10,620 --> 00:44:14,460 subscription a paid subscription for a month or whatever it is 746 00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:17,160 for every single piece of content they like then you have 747 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,670 to make shitty decisions. Well, okay, I can't afford to have 748 00:44:20,670 --> 00:44:23,400 this I have to cut myself off I can't have Disney because I 749 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,760 can't afford it and Hulu and Netflix and Paramount plus and 750 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,720 all that stuff. That's just my opinion that I think history 751 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,930 shows it but there's reasons to have private feeds. 752 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,870 Dave Jones: It seems like the on the private feed thing. There's 753 00:44:40,230 --> 00:44:45,390 our original discussion around open subscription was avoided in 754 00:44:45,390 --> 00:44:49,320 order to avoid private feeds. So that was like the original the 755 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,990 original as as sort of conceptualized was the podcast 756 00:44:54,990 --> 00:44:58,530 app does a hence does some sort of payment handshake. It you 757 00:44:58,530 --> 00:45:00,600 know it kicks out you do the payment You set up the 758 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:05,610 subscription. And then what gets handed back to the app is some 759 00:45:05,610 --> 00:45:10,470 sort of token. And then the app itself stores the token and 760 00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:15,450 sends it sends the token as a parameter with the enclosure 761 00:45:15,450 --> 00:45:19,680 download request, so that you don't actually have to have a 762 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:26,760 separate private feed. And that that comes from like that, that 763 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,300 comes from the sort of messiness of trying to police private 764 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,780 feeds. Because that's the only downside, the only the only 765 00:45:33,780 --> 00:45:38,610 downside of private feed are tokenized feed URLs, is that if 766 00:45:38,610 --> 00:45:42,690 they get loose? Your you got almost you have to kill them. I 767 00:45:42,690 --> 00:45:45,930 mean, I think most of these services like, you know, 768 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,440 substack, and it was a super cast. And these cats are that 769 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,940 generate, that do a lot of those private feeds. I think they also 770 00:45:53,940 --> 00:45:57,570 usually have a mechanism in place to where if they detect 771 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,210 that it's getting hit from multiple geo locations, they 772 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,840 didn't they kill it and recycle a new feed, and things like 773 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,550 that. So that in order to avoid that messiness, you could have 774 00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:12,840 the app itself could store the token, instead of bag, then you 775 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:13,740 require the app, 776 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,990 Adam Curry: you know, you know, where this conversation always 777 00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:21,420 ends up Dave? DRM, that's where it always ends, watch. It always 778 00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:24,420 ends. DRM always does well, in 779 00:46:24,780 --> 00:46:27,330 Dave Jones: the past to store something, yeah, 780 00:46:27,330 --> 00:46:29,820 Tom Rossi: but the way you're describing it is pretty much the 781 00:46:29,820 --> 00:46:32,490 way it works, the only thing that's happening is you're 782 00:46:32,490 --> 00:46:35,160 passing in the token. So what happens is when you make the 783 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,610 request to Buzzsprout, for example, if we were implemented, 784 00:46:38,610 --> 00:46:40,890 the way I proposed, when you make the request to Buzzsprout, 785 00:46:40,890 --> 00:46:44,040 what it's sending back to you is essentially the token, right, 786 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,640 because it's if that value were to get out to the public, well, 787 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,650 then anybody could go ahead, and they could download anything 788 00:46:49,650 --> 00:46:52,740 they want. And that token is only as valid as that person is 789 00:46:52,740 --> 00:46:56,790 paying for their subscription. So it's pretty much if you look 790 00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:59,970 at the URL, that's what it is, is you're passing in the token, 791 00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:03,480 with your request base, I'm just trying to build on a standard, 792 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:07,500 rather than like, because there's already a way for a, for 793 00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:11,280 example, for Apple podcasts to be able to load a private RSS 794 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,240 feed, but they don't really have a way to deal with tokens. So 795 00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:18,720 what we do is we just attach the token to the URL. So in the 796 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,650 enclosure URL, you're passing the token with your request. And 797 00:47:22,650 --> 00:47:25,230 that's, that's really the big difference in the RSS feed is 798 00:47:25,230 --> 00:47:26,850 that it includes your tokens, 799 00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:30,270 Dave Jones: which I think, which I think is is just a good 800 00:47:30,270 --> 00:47:33,270 compromise, it makes a lot of sense to do it to do it that 801 00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:37,020 way. Because it's a it's a, it's not such a heavy lift for the 802 00:47:37,020 --> 00:47:41,160 app. Because you're just moving right, you're sort of moving 803 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,380 things up the stack a little bit to where it's primarily a web 804 00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:50,190 handshake, and less of a sort of lower level infrastructure 805 00:47:50,190 --> 00:47:54,120 handshake where the app has to do a bunch of negotiation. The 806 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:59,130 only I guess the only, the only thing is how, if if that's how 807 00:47:59,130 --> 00:48:04,230 it goes. So if if if the idea here is to have a purely in app 808 00:48:04,230 --> 00:48:08,790 experience, where the user does not have to manually do an 809 00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:12,450 interaction, so what you would want in that case is, if it's 810 00:48:12,450 --> 00:48:15,810 premium content, you'd want to kick out to a web view, do the 811 00:48:15,810 --> 00:48:20,760 transaction, and then hand back the token, the tokenized, and 812 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,360 feed private feed your real, you do want to hand that back to the 813 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,580 app in some way. So that the app knows to swap out. Yes, see that 814 00:48:29,580 --> 00:48:33,330 it has in storage already with the new one. So that's 815 00:48:33,330 --> 00:48:37,530 Tom Rossi: the web hook. So the what the web hook is the app 816 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,440 telling the service, hey, after they've completed their payment, 817 00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:45,630 call this URL and pass in the tokenized URL. So that way, you 818 00:48:45,630 --> 00:48:48,810 can pass it back to cast ematic, or whatever the player is. 819 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,300 Dave Jones: So but is there a way to do it? The I never really 820 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:59,100 got a satisfactory answer to this. When I posted about it on 821 00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:03,180 the on the mastodon was, is there a way to hand hand that 822 00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:05,370 back from the web view where you don't have to have a second or a 823 00:49:05,370 --> 00:49:06,330 second request? 824 00:49:06,420 --> 00:49:09,330 Tom Rossi: I don't believe so. Because that would be a big 825 00:49:09,330 --> 00:49:11,970 security risk. Because that would mean that the app is 826 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,020 monitoring what you're doing on the website. That's not their 827 00:49:16,020 --> 00:49:18,600 website. So cast Matic is monitoring what you're doing on 828 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,800 Buzzsprout. So I think that there's no way for the web view 829 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,740 to pass that information back. That's where the web hook comes 830 00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:30,030 in. So web hook is a way for us to pass it back the same way it 831 00:49:30,030 --> 00:49:33,210 came to us. It came to us as an HTTP request, we can send it 832 00:49:33,210 --> 00:49:35,160 back to them through an HTTP request. 833 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,370 Dave Jones: So it's not like there's no there's no capacity 834 00:49:38,370 --> 00:49:42,960 for something like like a return value from a web view. Or an 835 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:43,980 exit code. 836 00:49:45,180 --> 00:49:48,570 Tom Rossi: Yeah, I don't believe so. But I'm not a mobile. I'm 837 00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:49,470 not a mobile guy. 838 00:49:50,339 --> 00:49:52,979 Dave Jones: Okay, because that's the only that's really the only 839 00:49:52,979 --> 00:49:55,589 part that gets tricky. I mean, like, if you can give, if you 840 00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:59,639 can give it back then that's like effortless care, but you 841 00:49:59,639 --> 00:50:01,139 don't even So just do it in? 842 00:50:01,380 --> 00:50:04,740 Tom Rossi: Well, yeah, that's true. But if the web, the web 843 00:50:04,740 --> 00:50:07,380 hook is a mechanism, I think that anybody could take 844 00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:09,990 advantage of right? Like any of the players that are out there, 845 00:50:10,050 --> 00:50:15,360 they could they could make, or they could receive a HTTP 846 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,150 request, as long as they have a server that they can receive it. 847 00:50:18,270 --> 00:50:20,940 So now they get that private feed, and they can just swap it 848 00:50:20,940 --> 00:50:24,390 out for the one, you know, that they were currently on before. 849 00:50:24,750 --> 00:50:27,270 Dave Jones: So when you're saying web hook, you're talking 850 00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:30,120 about the app side is receiving the hook. 851 00:50:30,750 --> 00:50:35,250 Tom Rossi: So okay, so if cast ematic is the player, and 852 00:50:35,250 --> 00:50:39,330 somebody wants to authorize ownership, or they want to, you 853 00:50:39,330 --> 00:50:43,020 know, subscribe to premium content, then it goes to a 854 00:50:43,020 --> 00:50:46,080 Buzzsprout URL, but when they call Buzzsprout, they say, when 855 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:51,240 you're done doing your thing, here's a URL or a web hook, I 856 00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:55,020 want you to call this URL when you're done and tell me what 857 00:50:55,020 --> 00:50:59,700 happened. So now Buzzsprout does its thing. It authenticates, or 858 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:03,840 it does Apple Pay. And once it's done, it calls that web hook and 859 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,390 says, Hey, we're done. And everything went great. Or it 860 00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:09,090 calls the web hook, and it says, we're done. And the credit card 861 00:51:09,090 --> 00:51:12,210 didn't get approved, whatever. And so we pass that information 862 00:51:12,210 --> 00:51:14,760 back to the app, and so that the app can do whatever it wants to 863 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:15,060 do. 864 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,490 Dave Jones: So that Yeah, cuz that's gonna be a problem for 865 00:51:17,490 --> 00:51:20,760 customers. Because they don't he didn't Franco has no server 866 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:25,950 infrastructure at all. Period. Yeah. Yeah. So it's So 867 00:51:26,340 --> 00:51:28,080 Tom Rossi: how old are you to receive? Uh, 868 00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:32,610 Dave Jones: huh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's, that's 869 00:51:32,610 --> 00:51:36,630 the issue. So for those, like for, it'll see, Nathan says apps 870 00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:39,900 can definitely inject their own JavaScript into web views. If 871 00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:42,840 that's the case, they, you would think they could get those 872 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:48,480 things back. I mean, like, for, for many podcast apps, I mean, 873 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,240 I'm going to say a lot of them, they would have the capability 874 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:53,910 to receive the hook. But there's going to be some out there that 875 00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:57,390 don't. And like cast ematic, where it's purely everything 876 00:51:57,390 --> 00:51:58,740 happens on device. 877 00:52:00,930 --> 00:52:03,120 Tom Rossi: If they can inject their own JavaScript, then the 878 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:09,060 web hook could be a URL, a local URL, you know what I mean to the 879 00:52:09,060 --> 00:52:14,700 JavaScript? Yeah. Okay. But that would be that would, that's the 880 00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:17,190 mechanism, we're talking about building. But what we would need 881 00:52:17,190 --> 00:52:21,570 is an app developer, to to kind of weigh in on that because I'm, 882 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,220 I'm a web developer. And they'll have a different approach to it. 883 00:52:26,970 --> 00:52:29,880 Yeah, what that but that's what I that's what I just came up 884 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:35,130 with. And this is specifically for, you know, doing, giving 885 00:52:35,130 --> 00:52:37,740 access to premium content, but building a web hook 886 00:52:37,740 --> 00:52:40,110 infrastructure that we could use in other areas as well. 887 00:52:40,860 --> 00:52:43,230 Adam Curry: Let's talk about the other areas before I fall asleep 888 00:52:43,230 --> 00:52:44,250 over this tantalizing 889 00:52:45,150 --> 00:52:47,640 Tom Rossi: commodity. This was a hot namespace talk. 890 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:56,190 Adam Curry: Not really. We got web hooks got JavaScript. So 891 00:52:56,220 --> 00:52:59,580 this kind of folds into because we've now discussed two things 892 00:52:59,580 --> 00:53:04,980 that were kind of with the, with this web hook, round robin 893 00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:11,370 infrastructure for t x t. Both things that are part of the pod 894 00:53:11,370 --> 00:53:17,820 Standards Project. Which I believe you guys are one of the 895 00:53:17,820 --> 00:53:20,820 driving forces behind it's a little unclear because I'm not 896 00:53:20,820 --> 00:53:25,230 quite sure. You know, why don't you tell us about that? Tell you 897 00:53:25,230 --> 00:53:28,080 about the pocket Standards Project. Not so much about this. 898 00:53:28,140 --> 00:53:30,480 I think everyone who's listening knows what the standards project 899 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,900 is but what's driving it who's driving it where are we at? 900 00:53:34,140 --> 00:53:36,090 Where's the wallet for me to contribute to it? 901 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,490 Kevin Finn: I have it I have a guy wanted to bring it to you 902 00:53:38,490 --> 00:53:42,930 live and except your gracious gift person I want to send to 903 00:53:42,930 --> 00:53:44,220 you in personal email. 904 00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:46,590 Adam Curry: Good good. Well send that to me while we're talking 905 00:53:46,590 --> 00:53:47,700 so I can put it into split 906 00:53:47,940 --> 00:53:50,010 Kevin Finn: Okay, what do you want just like I set it up on 907 00:53:50,010 --> 00:53:52,200 Albie just want to get lb? Yes. Just 908 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:53,940 Adam Curry: send me the Yeah, just send me the get lb user 909 00:53:53,940 --> 00:54:00,120 addresses worked perfectly. For it's perfect. So it was funny, 910 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,480 because, you know, we talked about this on the last episode 911 00:54:03,780 --> 00:54:06,570 about how you know, we're kind of the fighters running around 912 00:54:06,570 --> 00:54:08,610 on the front lines. We've got the diplomats and the 913 00:54:08,610 --> 00:54:12,750 politician, but we want to help fund him. And then subsequently, 914 00:54:12,750 --> 00:54:17,250 it seems like one of the main you know first topics of the PSP 915 00:54:17,250 --> 00:54:21,570 Oh, dot nine is transcripts and everyone's yelling and screaming 916 00:54:21,570 --> 00:54:24,390 over podcast indexed or social about it. So I'm just trying to, 917 00:54:24,420 --> 00:54:27,240 which is fine. I'm trying to figure out when when does some 918 00:54:27,270 --> 00:54:30,450 how what's what's the mechanism? How's it going to flow through? 919 00:54:30,450 --> 00:54:33,540 When does something get written up? Who writes it up? What are 920 00:54:33,540 --> 00:54:35,910 the inner workings of this, because I've seen a lot of these 921 00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:38,910 projects have actually had missed 10 years, these projects, 922 00:54:39,060 --> 00:54:43,110 I wasn't invited into them, I wouldn't have gone anyway. And 923 00:54:43,140 --> 00:54:46,980 they usually turn out to be a dud. And so I want to do 924 00:54:46,980 --> 00:54:50,250 everything I can to help everyone make this successful 925 00:54:50,250 --> 00:54:54,240 because I do believe in the idea. But I'm like, you know now 926 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:57,510 we're a week further. There's no new blog post. There's no news. 927 00:54:57,510 --> 00:55:01,110 There's nothing in the GitHub that I can see specifically, 928 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,500 what's the process? Who's driving it? Should there be a 929 00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:09,330 designated leader? Who do we look to? I mean, I just hear a 930 00:55:09,330 --> 00:55:12,510 little confusion. You certainly I'm confused a bit. You're 931 00:55:12,510 --> 00:55:12,990 confused? 932 00:55:13,020 --> 00:55:15,030 Kevin Finn: Yeah. Yeah, let's try to answer some of that 933 00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:20,910 address some of that confusion. So I think the we launched the 934 00:55:20,910 --> 00:55:24,330 project, it takes, it took a lot to get to that point, a lot, a 935 00:55:24,330 --> 00:55:27,180 lot of work. And I think a lot of the people who did a lot of 936 00:55:27,180 --> 00:55:31,290 the heavy lifting on that needed a week to breathe. And so I 937 00:55:31,290 --> 00:55:35,850 think that's why it was a little quiet. There is there was a lot 938 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,270 of communication happening on the back end. And we decided 939 00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:42,660 that that's, I mean, this is not how a successful project is 940 00:55:42,660 --> 00:55:44,790 going to work. We have to get this thing out in the open. But 941 00:55:44,790 --> 00:55:47,490 in order to get it out in the open, we had to put something 942 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,580 out in the open. And when you're working with a lot of 943 00:55:50,580 --> 00:55:53,070 organizations and a lot of different opinions, you've got 944 00:55:53,070 --> 00:55:55,530 to get some sort of agreement about here's what's coming. 945 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,200 Here's what we're going to open up. And so that's what took a 946 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,160 long time. Now that that is done and that is out. We want this to 947 00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,280 be an open project. So in terms of that's why we didn't come out 948 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,010 with a one Dotto spec, we came out with a dot nine like here's 949 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,450 some building blocks. And we feel like it's pretty good and 950 00:56:12,450 --> 00:56:14,490 everyone involved in the project has agreed on this stuff. But 951 00:56:14,490 --> 00:56:18,150 now let's get it to one Dotto. So we want to hear pushback, we 952 00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:20,370 want to hear challenges we want to hear how can we improve it 953 00:56:20,370 --> 00:56:24,660 what's lacking the there's a difference between the spec that 954 00:56:24,660 --> 00:56:29,010 is being proposed, and the requirements to be a PSP 955 00:56:29,010 --> 00:56:32,340 certified provider, whether you're a listening app or 956 00:56:32,340 --> 00:56:37,770 hosting company to be compliant with the spec, you don't have to 957 00:56:37,770 --> 00:56:40,380 support transcripts, that's just a recommendation as far as 958 00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:45,270 recommended tag. But to be a PSP Certified Partner, if you're 959 00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:47,670 like a hosting company, you have to have a UI to upload a 960 00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:52,620 transcript. Does that make sense? Yeah, sure, sure. Sure. 961 00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:56,610 Right. And so anything that's in the spec, whether it be required 962 00:56:56,610 --> 00:57:01,590 or recommended or recommended or situational, you have to provide 963 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,310 a UI if you're hosting company to do that. And if you're an app 964 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,640 that is certified, then you have to, there's only two tags right 965 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:13,680 now that you need to accommodate to be a PSP listening app. And I 966 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:18,870 think that is its funding and transcripts. Right. And so it's 967 00:57:18,870 --> 00:57:22,080 really the bar is really low right now. But the idea is to 968 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,930 set the bar low, so you can start getting adoption. And then 969 00:57:24,930 --> 00:57:28,770 as other great ideas come in, we will do yearly reviews and say, 970 00:57:28,770 --> 00:57:31,230 Hey, do you want to keep that PSP certification, we hope it's 971 00:57:31,260 --> 00:57:33,900 valuable. We hope you believe in what we believe and still want 972 00:57:33,900 --> 00:57:37,380 to be a part. This year, we're going to adopt XYZ, and we want 973 00:57:37,380 --> 00:57:40,590 that to be community driven as much as possible. We're trying 974 00:57:40,590 --> 00:57:43,080 to figure out right now, like at the end of the day, somebody's 975 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,590 going to have to say, we're updating the spec to this, we 976 00:57:46,590 --> 00:57:47,760 want to move from one Dotto to 977 00:57:49,050 --> 00:57:54,780 Adam Curry: one step back one sec. Who who says to Pocket 978 00:57:54,780 --> 00:57:58,410 Cast, y'all want to be a part of it, you've got to implement your 979 00:57:58,410 --> 00:58:03,390 transcript, who is the who is the person that says that? That 980 00:58:03,420 --> 00:58:06,900 I presume that person is not designated. This is what I know 981 00:58:06,900 --> 00:58:09,630 this this, this is this is where things break. I mean, I'm an 982 00:58:09,630 --> 00:58:12,540 organizational guy out community guys. So I see these things like 983 00:58:12,540 --> 00:58:15,780 okay, I understand that, that that has to be said, but someone 984 00:58:15,780 --> 00:58:16,650 actually has to say it. 985 00:58:17,610 --> 00:58:19,290 Kevin Finn: Right? Well, the people who are saying it right 986 00:58:19,290 --> 00:58:21,570 now, it's not just one person, it's a group of people. So it's 987 00:58:21,570 --> 00:58:23,220 a group of people that came together and said, Hey, here's 988 00:58:23,250 --> 00:58:25,230 dot nine, here's the certification requirements. 989 00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:28,350 Anybody who wants to be PSP certified has to meet these 990 00:58:28,350 --> 00:58:30,900 requirements. And it wasn't just Buzzsprout as Buzzsprout and 991 00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:34,080 transistor and red circle and blueberry and rss.com. It was us 992 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,630 speaking together and saying we agree on this stuff. And that's 993 00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:39,510 enough of us have agreed that anybody else who wants to come 994 00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:40,920 in these to play by these rules. 995 00:58:42,210 --> 00:58:45,300 Tom Rossi: Hopefully that badge begins to mean something for 996 00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:47,700 especially for people that care about open podcasting. And so 997 00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:50,520 then they'll ask the question, why don't you have that badge? 998 00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:51,870 Why aren't you doing it? 999 00:58:53,070 --> 00:58:56,490 Adam Curry: Right. So that that's my point is I see Pocket 1000 00:58:56,490 --> 00:59:00,870 Casts coming soon. Yeah, yeah. Someone has to excuse me. You 1001 00:59:00,870 --> 00:59:02,670 know, we're going to take you off, and we're going to take 1002 00:59:02,670 --> 00:59:03,450 away your badge. 1003 00:59:04,860 --> 00:59:07,860 Kevin Finn: Your credentials. Yes. Right. Right. No, that was 1004 00:59:07,860 --> 00:59:10,050 great, though, because Pocket Casts was super excited about 1005 00:59:10,050 --> 00:59:12,330 it. But they said, You guys are launching before we're going to 1006 00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:15,450 be ready. And so we said, well, we need a commitment. Can you 1007 00:59:15,450 --> 00:59:18,120 what's the what's the commitment date that you feel comfortable 1008 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,670 with? And they said by the end of spring, and so we said, 1009 00:59:20,730 --> 00:59:22,830 that's good enough. But we're going to if you don't have it by 1010 00:59:22,830 --> 00:59:24,990 the end of spring, you're logos coming off the site? Am I right? 1011 00:59:24,990 --> 00:59:25,500 No problem. 1012 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,170 Adam Curry: My recommendation would be just, you know, y'all 1013 00:59:28,170 --> 00:59:33,630 gotta just recommendation you need to have someone who is 1014 00:59:33,630 --> 00:59:36,360 responsible for doing that. And it can't just be kind of like, 1015 00:59:36,390 --> 00:59:38,880 we're gonna someone's gonna say we're going to stand around in a 1016 00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,320 circle and say, You're not doing it. You need to face and I 1017 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:43,710 hatchet 1018 00:59:43,710 --> 00:59:46,380 Dave Jones: man. Yeah, you need to represent 1019 00:59:46,380 --> 00:59:47,610 Kevin Finn: Tom wants to be that guy. 1020 00:59:48,990 --> 00:59:50,220 Adam Curry: You need to represent you need a 1021 00:59:50,220 --> 00:59:54,510 representative. You really do. Yeah. And you know what? Kind of 1022 00:59:55,860 --> 00:59:58,980 Todd actually be pretty good because Todd, as I know him, 1023 00:59:58,980 --> 01:00:01,740 I've known him for a long time. does not give a crap, he will 1024 01:00:01,740 --> 01:00:04,110 say, Hey, you guys are no good, you got to do it, and he'll 1025 01:00:04,110 --> 01:00:08,820 hound him. But my recommendation is the only thing I'm missing is 1026 01:00:08,850 --> 01:00:12,300 you need someone to actually be responsible for saying that. 1027 01:00:12,690 --> 01:00:15,420 Otherwise, it's just going to linger. And I just hate that to 1028 01:00:15,420 --> 01:00:16,980 see that happen. That's all just hate. 1029 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,610 Dave Jones: The approach makes the approach makes sense, I 1030 01:00:20,610 --> 01:00:23,700 think because if you if you look at let's just say mobile apps, 1031 01:00:23,700 --> 01:00:27,690 for instance, a mobile app developers are used to this sort 1032 01:00:27,690 --> 01:00:31,260 of annual cadence anyway, I mean, iOS, the new version of 1033 01:00:31,260 --> 01:00:34,620 iOS comes out each year. And new version of Android comes out 1034 01:00:34,620 --> 01:00:39,270 each year. And whenever that happens, things old, older API's 1035 01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:43,140 are deprecated. And newer API's come out. And so they they have 1036 01:00:43,140 --> 01:00:47,700 to at least change things annually, on a rolling basis 1037 01:00:47,700 --> 01:00:50,580 anyway. So if you make the bar low enough, where you say, Okay, 1038 01:00:50,580 --> 01:00:53,490 well, you know, it's been a year now we're going to add this, 1039 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:58,500 this extra tag. You know, it's just maybe it's just one extra 1040 01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:02,580 thing, you know, that that's, that's not a big hurdle? I don't 1041 01:01:02,580 --> 01:01:02,970 think 1042 01:01:03,090 --> 01:01:06,300 Kevin Finn: agreed. You're absolutely right. So I mean, the 1043 01:01:06,330 --> 01:01:09,540 reason I mentioned Todd, he was very involved in helping us get 1044 01:01:09,540 --> 01:01:11,550 to the point that we are, and he's drafted up some membership 1045 01:01:11,550 --> 01:01:14,190 requirements he was just talking about, I'm gonna show this week, 1046 01:01:14,340 --> 01:01:19,590 and we need to figure out how we get those adopted and put into 1047 01:01:19,590 --> 01:01:22,710 place so that we have that person, that person who's 1048 01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:24,990 running around and telling everybody, Hey, here's the new 1049 01:01:24,990 --> 01:01:29,490 tags. Here's where we're moving. I don't know it. And a lot of 1050 01:01:29,490 --> 01:01:32,700 ways it's easier in some of these open source type projects 1051 01:01:32,700 --> 01:01:35,250 when you have the benevolent dictator, right. 1052 01:01:35,730 --> 01:01:38,160 Adam Curry: Yeah, I don't know. We don't have one. I don't we 1053 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,680 don't I don't know. I mean, what 1054 01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:46,080 Dave Jones: I thought that was a benevolent dictator was 1055 01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:50,310 Adam Curry: someone Someone Someone has to commit key? You 1056 01:01:50,310 --> 01:01:52,530 know, that's, that's ultimately what it is 1057 01:01:52,650 --> 01:01:55,380 Tom Rossi: that benevolent dictator? Yeah, whoever, whoever 1058 01:01:55,380 --> 01:01:58,740 can commit to, for example, for the PSP, what is going to be 1059 01:01:58,740 --> 01:02:02,220 that that first spec that everyone agrees to meet? 1060 01:02:02,370 --> 01:02:05,520 Somebody's got to make the call on what we're going to agree to? 1061 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,510 Adam Curry: Let me ask you a philosophical question. Because 1062 01:02:09,510 --> 01:02:13,080 this is going to come up right now. So YouTube has come up with 1063 01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,470 something they call podcast, which turns my stomach because 1064 01:02:16,470 --> 01:02:21,780 it's not. However, is it okay for any hosting company who was 1065 01:02:21,780 --> 01:02:26,520 on this list to integrate with, with YouTube without it actually 1066 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,220 going through their RSS feed, but just to pump it up into 1067 01:02:29,220 --> 01:02:33,360 their infrastructure, therefore, literally ruining the thing that 1068 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:34,620 PSP stands for? 1069 01:02:36,210 --> 01:02:37,920 Kevin Finn: Is it okay for them to do that? 1070 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,340 Adam Curry: If you're on this list, it's about open 1071 01:02:41,340 --> 01:02:46,980 podcasting. It's literally about these companies, Spotify, 1072 01:02:47,220 --> 01:02:51,960 YouTube, and to a degree Apple, that are off doing this, I'm 1073 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,170 reading the document. But if everyone's gonna go ahead and 1074 01:02:55,170 --> 01:02:59,550 say, Well, you know, but my people really want to be what's 1075 01:02:59,550 --> 01:03:02,640 going to be on YouTube, you're kind of breaking the whole idea. 1076 01:03:02,970 --> 01:03:05,430 Dave Jones: Your question is out of scope? Well, 1077 01:03:05,460 --> 01:03:07,890 Tom Rossi: I think I think you're doing what YouTube wants 1078 01:03:07,890 --> 01:03:10,230 us to do, which is to conflate podcasting with what they're 1079 01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:13,470 doing. And it's not. If somebody takes their content and puts it 1080 01:03:13,470 --> 01:03:16,710 up on YouTube, I don't see that as part of their podcast. I see 1081 01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:20,010 them as having a podcast, which is your RSS feed. And oh, by the 1082 01:03:20,010 --> 01:03:23,640 way, they've posted their content on YouTube. But I don't 1083 01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:24,060 see that as 1084 01:03:24,060 --> 01:03:27,330 Adam Curry: a podcast. I'm talking about hosting companies 1085 01:03:27,330 --> 01:03:31,080 integrating to make it to make one click to go from your 1086 01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,980 hosting company into YouTube. Would you Would you agree with 1087 01:03:34,980 --> 01:03:37,380 me that that is counter intuitive to the mission? 1088 01:03:38,460 --> 01:03:41,670 Tom Rossi: I don't think so. Unless they abandon the RSS feed 1089 01:03:41,790 --> 01:03:45,060 unless they no longer distribute the content over an RSS feed, 1090 01:03:45,930 --> 01:03:49,560 but making that same content available in other places? I 1091 01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,990 don't think that that's violating this. 1092 01:03:52,020 --> 01:03:53,490 Adam Curry: Do you think it's promoted? 1093 01:03:53,490 --> 01:03:54,450 Tom Rossi: Maybe they'll vote me out? 1094 01:03:55,110 --> 01:03:57,210 Adam Curry: I'm just saying, Do you feel that that is not 1095 01:03:57,210 --> 01:04:00,690 promoting a closed system that is not part of the RSS 1096 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,400 ecosystem, as described in the podcast Standards Project? I 1097 01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,400 don't know. I don't know. I don't, 1098 01:04:08,670 --> 01:04:12,570 Tom Rossi: I saw it as a threat. I just don't see it that way. I 1099 01:04:12,570 --> 01:04:15,960 don't see I don't see YouTube as a threat. I see. YouTube. Now 1100 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,620 YouTube could be a threat if they if content was only showing 1101 01:04:19,620 --> 01:04:23,940 up there. But I don't see them as a threat. I don't think that 1102 01:04:23,940 --> 01:04:24,480 who 1103 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,790 Adam Curry: is the threat? Who is the threat to the open 1104 01:04:26,790 --> 01:04:29,850 podcast, but could name them who was a threat to the open podcast 1105 01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:30,720 ecosystem? 1106 01:04:31,260 --> 01:04:34,470 Tom Rossi: Because let me take any podcasts that it doesn't 1107 01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:38,970 have an RSS feed. So a company that launches tomorrow and they 1108 01:04:38,970 --> 01:04:41,340 have their own audio content, but the only way to listen to it 1109 01:04:41,370 --> 01:04:44,220 is through their app. Well, that's not part of 1110 01:04:44,250 --> 01:04:46,080 Adam Curry: it's not exactly what YouTube is doing. They're 1111 01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,170 saying upload your podcast to us. And that 1112 01:04:49,170 --> 01:04:52,500 Tom Rossi: way you YouTube will never be a member of PSP. I like 1113 01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:55,290 they'll never they'll never want this. But for people to 1114 01:04:55,290 --> 01:04:57,720 integrate with them. I don't know. Okay, 1115 01:04:58,170 --> 01:05:00,390 Dave Jones: well, me I guess your I guess your The poster 1116 01:05:00,390 --> 01:05:04,350 child example would be Spotify, Spotify for podcasters, formerly 1117 01:05:04,350 --> 01:05:07,290 known as anchor, which they disable RSS feeds by default. 1118 01:05:07,710 --> 01:05:12,930 That would be an example of a definitely something is it's 1119 01:05:12,930 --> 01:05:16,560 hostile to open podcast leave, you know, it's not impossible, 1120 01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:18,720 but it is at least open podcasting hostile. 1121 01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:21,630 Tom Rossi: Yeah. But that's kind of like what Kevin was talking 1122 01:05:21,630 --> 01:05:24,180 about where we're trying to like, let's figure out what are 1123 01:05:24,180 --> 01:05:27,000 the requirements? Well, can we agree to, because if we set the 1124 01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,900 bar too high, and then there's only one or two members, well, 1125 01:05:30,900 --> 01:05:34,560 then we're really not a strong group to go advocate. So we're 1126 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:37,830 trying to raise the bar. But we have to do that, in a way by 1127 01:05:37,830 --> 01:05:41,010 first getting some type of ground level that we can all 1128 01:05:41,010 --> 01:05:41,790 start with. 1129 01:05:45,030 --> 01:05:47,490 Dave Jones: I think it makes sense. I mean, 1130 01:05:47,910 --> 01:05:49,770 Tom Rossi: but it's taken a while. I mean, for sure. You 1131 01:05:49,770 --> 01:05:52,740 guys were there. When we when we first brought up, you know, the 1132 01:05:52,740 --> 01:05:57,540 idea of doing some some type of group like this. And I know 1133 01:05:57,540 --> 01:06:00,660 others have been critical about how long it took for for us to 1134 01:06:00,660 --> 01:06:03,270 be able to communicate anything, but we had to get critical mass 1135 01:06:03,270 --> 01:06:06,780 like we had to get enough people that could get on board with it 1136 01:06:06,780 --> 01:06:09,270 before. Otherwise, it would just die on the vine. 1137 01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,980 Dave Jones: The one one thing I know that has been the this has 1138 01:06:13,980 --> 01:06:18,690 been a constant Thorn is D AI and how it impacts all yes, all 1139 01:06:18,690 --> 01:06:23,700 of this other stuff. Like, is there been any, like flexibility 1140 01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:26,820 on that? Or is everybody just like no, or the RDI thing is 1141 01:06:26,820 --> 01:06:28,680 just what it is. And we're not going to change it. We're not 1142 01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:32,490 going to modify, image modify anything about the way it works? 1143 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:40,920 Kevin Finn: Yeah, more of that. It's been. Yeah, whenever we run 1144 01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:46,440 into an element that breaks the AI, it's kind of like everything 1145 01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:50,520 grinds to a halt. Yeah. And so the best way to get something 1146 01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:53,490 out there was just to stay away from those landmines. At first, 1147 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:55,530 I was gonna ask him at some point, 1148 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,710 Dave Jones: I had this experience. I was listening new 1149 01:06:58,710 --> 01:07:04,770 media show yesterday. And I had in so it's got a pre roll. In 1150 01:07:04,770 --> 01:07:06,960 this pre roll. Like I thought that I thought that I had 1151 01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,440 accidentally missed my mess. My APA because I heard this water 1152 01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:13,770 trickling, like he's just water running. And like, what if I 1153 01:07:13,770 --> 01:07:17,370 switched to Spotify on accident? What did I do? So I flipped back 1154 01:07:17,370 --> 01:07:21,330 in his cast? ematic and he's playing. And I'm like, okay, and 1155 01:07:21,330 --> 01:07:23,400 then and then somebody's voice comes on. Okay, so it's a pre 1156 01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:28,200 roll ad for a spa. So we've had this, it was like, this thing, 1157 01:07:28,350 --> 01:07:32,640 this moment of relaxation has been brought to you by spa. And, 1158 01:07:32,820 --> 01:07:36,840 and I was like, Okay, well, that's okay. Unbeknownst to me, 1159 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:42,720 it's a local company. So it was like, you know, the, the spa, 1160 01:07:42,750 --> 01:07:45,810 you know, the best spa in Birmingham, Alabama. And 1161 01:07:45,810 --> 01:07:50,160 honestly, I was like, and I thought, Okay, this creeped me 1162 01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:55,260 out. It really creeped me out. Because we all know that this 1163 01:07:55,260 --> 01:07:59,670 happens, we all know that targeting is primarily 1164 01:07:59,670 --> 01:08:03,030 geolocation based and that kind of thing that it's not a 1165 01:08:03,030 --> 01:08:08,490 surprise that that exists. And that's a thing. But it is 1166 01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:15,600 creepy. It because it just reinforces this idea. That okay, 1167 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:21,750 this software on my phone, it knows where I'm at, like, of 1168 01:08:21,750 --> 01:08:24,180 course it does. There's a sense in which you can say, Yeah, of 1169 01:08:24,180 --> 01:08:26,310 course that the thing knows where you're at the whole phone 1170 01:08:26,310 --> 01:08:30,180 knows where you're at. But when it kind of throws it in your 1171 01:08:30,180 --> 01:08:34,890 face, and it's in it's it's saying, Yeah, I really know 1172 01:08:34,890 --> 01:08:39,930 where you're at, like, I'm actually watching to know, I'm 1173 01:08:39,930 --> 01:08:43,410 actively wanting to know where you are. I don't know, I found 1174 01:08:43,410 --> 01:08:47,250 the whole thing. Just to comment on dai in general just found the 1175 01:08:47,250 --> 01:08:49,740 whole thing very creepy. And it's the first time that's 1176 01:08:49,740 --> 01:08:50,550 actually happened. 1177 01:08:50,790 --> 01:08:53,160 Kevin Finn: It's one thing when you open up the Maps app or 1178 01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,130 something that is used, like it's asking permission to use 1179 01:08:56,130 --> 01:08:59,640 your location. Yes, you understand, right? Like I'm 1180 01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:01,830 giving that permission to use my locations. Another thing when 1181 01:09:01,830 --> 01:09:04,680 podcast apps when they might have it buried in their terms of 1182 01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,170 service or privacy policy somewhere that they'll use your 1183 01:09:07,170 --> 01:09:10,170 location based on your IP, but you're not reading that stuff. I 1184 01:09:10,170 --> 01:09:12,570 never gave cast thematic permission, and it's not even 1185 01:09:12,570 --> 01:09:15,840 Casta Maddox fault. It's whoever's serving up the podcast 1186 01:09:15,870 --> 01:09:19,140 and then handing off my IP to some, you know, app server 1187 01:09:19,140 --> 01:09:19,920 somewhere. actly. 1188 01:09:19,980 --> 01:09:21,150 Adam Curry: Exactly. Yes. I 1189 01:09:21,150 --> 01:09:22,710 Kevin Finn: never gave it permission to do that. So that 1190 01:09:22,710 --> 01:09:23,910 feels like a violation. Just 1191 01:09:23,910 --> 01:09:28,260 Adam Curry: a question on on the Dai a minute. Has everyone 1192 01:09:28,260 --> 01:09:32,790 figured out it? Will everybody be supporting transcripts re 1193 01:09:32,790 --> 01:09:36,810 syncing after an ad insertion, which screws everything up? 1194 01:09:37,170 --> 01:09:40,470 Tom Rossi: Yeah. See, that's that's where it gets very 1195 01:09:40,470 --> 01:09:46,860 difficult. Because are we going to say that the PSP like Dai we 1196 01:09:46,860 --> 01:09:49,440 think it's creepy. We don't do it. Do we make that a 1197 01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:54,330 requirement to be part of the advocacy for open podcasting 1198 01:09:54,330 --> 01:09:55,740 because that will exclude 1199 01:09:55,740 --> 01:09:57,720 Adam Curry: that's not what I'm That's what I'm asking. I'm 1200 01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:03,390 asking is, can if If you okay, maybe it is what I'm asking you 1201 01:10:03,390 --> 01:10:03,810 directly. 1202 01:10:03,810 --> 01:10:05,340 Tom Rossi: It's what you're asking. Yeah. Okay, if you do 1203 01:10:05,340 --> 01:10:10,110 dai it's very difficult. Like, I understand that I pushed hard. I 1204 01:10:10,110 --> 01:10:12,900 wanted chapters to be included in the spec. Um, 1205 01:10:12,930 --> 01:10:14,280 Adam Curry: Robert just drank, let's just stick with 1206 01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,260 transcripts, transcripts get thrown off too. 1207 01:10:16,890 --> 01:10:19,680 Tom Rossi: Yeah, transcripts in chapters both require shifting 1208 01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,990 based on dynamic content, which is what Buzzsprout does. 1209 01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:23,940 Whenever we insert dynamic content, we shift the 1210 01:10:23,940 --> 01:10:28,320 transcripts. Right, and we shift but it's easier for us because 1211 01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,510 ours are more baked in we're not, you know, looking at you're 1212 01:10:30,510 --> 01:10:35,250 in Birmingham, Alabama and inserting 45. Second ad. So I 1213 01:10:35,250 --> 01:10:38,880 think that's that's gonna be a point of contention is, are we 1214 01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:43,410 going to be able to get those things that require shifting 1215 01:10:43,410 --> 01:10:45,570 timestamps and stuff like that? Are we going to get those 1216 01:10:45,570 --> 01:10:48,480 included in the pod standards? I don't I don't know. 1217 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:54,540 Dave Jones: I think it's, it's, this is not hard. Like, like, 1218 01:10:54,540 --> 01:10:59,010 yeah, it is, I think what happened? It's not because the 1219 01:10:59,010 --> 01:11:03,360 technology to do it can't be thought of, it's because there 1220 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,420 are third party services out there that that hosting 1221 01:11:06,420 --> 01:11:10,650 companies have integrated with that do this type of thing. And 1222 01:11:10,980 --> 01:11:15,090 they don't they don't accommodate it. Well, it's like 1223 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:18,660 the if they did if the third parties that provided the AI, 1224 01:11:19,380 --> 01:11:24,660 that if they did a better job of tagging and slotting in that 1225 01:11:24,660 --> 01:11:27,600 kind of thing in a way that is that the hosting company could 1226 01:11:27,900 --> 01:11:31,110 could didn't know about and shift timestamps for this would 1227 01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:35,370 be a non issue. But I think there's a disconnect between the 1228 01:11:35,370 --> 01:11:39,150 third party DEA providers and the hosting companies that are 1229 01:11:39,180 --> 01:11:42,990 that are calling out to them to insert the ads. That's where the 1230 01:11:42,990 --> 01:11:45,900 breakdown occurs, I think it's just a it's just a willpower 1231 01:11:45,900 --> 01:11:49,740 issue is like, are we gonna do we have the willpower to, to 1232 01:11:49,770 --> 01:11:51,960 work with people to fix this over time. 1233 01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:56,760 Tom Rossi: So this is where I think the podcasting 2.0 1234 01:11:56,760 --> 01:12:00,750 movement that you guys have started can really help. Because 1235 01:12:00,780 --> 01:12:03,960 as people that join that community are innovating, and 1236 01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:07,890 they're doing cool stuff, well, if you're not using the 1237 01:12:07,890 --> 01:12:10,980 transcript tag, or if you're not using the chapters, then you're 1238 01:12:10,980 --> 01:12:13,440 not going to be able to do that cool stuff that's going to 1239 01:12:13,530 --> 01:12:16,950 that's going to put pressure on groups to be able to do those 1240 01:12:16,950 --> 01:12:20,280 things, which is going to help us adopt that as a standard, 1241 01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:22,680 because now we can point to it and say, look that don't you 1242 01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:25,200 want to do that? That's what you got to do to be able to meet 1243 01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:25,860 this standard? 1244 01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:30,060 Adam Curry: No. And that's really, I really, you got to 1245 01:12:30,060 --> 01:12:32,460 explain that to me again, what do we have to do? 1246 01:12:33,510 --> 01:12:35,670 Tom Rossi: What you're doing is great, what you're doing is 1247 01:12:35,670 --> 01:12:38,340 innovating and coming up with those things so that as they get 1248 01:12:38,340 --> 01:12:41,130 more adoption, we can point to them and say, Look, that's what, 1249 01:12:41,250 --> 01:12:44,070 that's what you've got to do write like, that's what people 1250 01:12:44,070 --> 01:12:48,690 want. And we can make that part of our standard. But we've got 1251 01:12:48,690 --> 01:12:51,330 to get enough people on our standard have the appetite or 1252 01:12:51,330 --> 01:12:52,800 the willpower to implement it. 1253 01:12:52,890 --> 01:12:55,860 Adam Curry: I think the market takes care of that for yourself. 1254 01:12:55,890 --> 01:13:00,120 I mean, I don't want to tell anybody what to do. But if if I 1255 01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:04,170 have transcripts, and my my audience enjoys my transcripts, 1256 01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:08,160 and the hosting company, I'm using screws them up with Dai, 1257 01:13:08,820 --> 01:13:12,300 then I'll probably find a better dia de ai provider. And I think 1258 01:13:12,300 --> 01:13:15,150 the the market for solves that. I don't think that we need to 1259 01:13:15,150 --> 01:13:15,960 tell anybody. 1260 01:13:16,410 --> 01:13:19,470 Tom Rossi: Yeah, well, but what podcasting 2.0 did was provide 1261 01:13:19,470 --> 01:13:23,220 the way for that to happen. Right? If you guys didn't do the 1262 01:13:23,220 --> 01:13:25,950 transcript tag, if you didn't advocate for that and get some 1263 01:13:25,950 --> 01:13:29,280 adoption, the market wouldn't even know. Right, you know, 1264 01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:32,550 Adam Curry: then it's, then whoever doesn't do that, 1265 01:13:32,550 --> 01:13:34,770 eventually people will say I don't like it, and they'll leave 1266 01:13:34,770 --> 01:13:37,530 and they'll go somewhere else. Right? Because transcript Oh, I 1267 01:13:37,530 --> 01:13:39,630 mean, that's I thought transcript was solved. I mean, 1268 01:13:39,630 --> 01:13:44,280 we're still working on it. But once we get down to the right 1269 01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:46,980 resolution, and everything, I hope everyone implemented and 1270 01:13:46,980 --> 01:13:50,130 everyone tries to make it as simple as synchronized as 1271 01:13:50,130 --> 01:13:52,080 possible with with the actual audio. 1272 01:13:53,670 --> 01:13:55,860 Dave Jones: We have to see the syncing with the audio is just 1273 01:13:55,890 --> 01:14:00,630 is because it's like we're having debates about about word 1274 01:14:00,630 --> 01:14:03,990 level synchronization or sentence level synchronization 1275 01:14:04,020 --> 01:14:08,700 when one ad slot comes by and the whole thing is way off is 10 1276 01:14:08,700 --> 01:14:13,950 seconds. 30 seconds off anyway. And that's just it. The the the, 1277 01:14:14,850 --> 01:14:17,340 I see it as a as a disregard. 1278 01:14:17,370 --> 01:14:19,440 Adam Curry: But yeah, if you're a hosting provider, and you 1279 01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:23,280 provide transcripts, and you provide ad insertions you need 1280 01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:24,720 to solve that as I don't 1281 01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:26,940 Tom Rossi: think they do. Yeah, I think if you're doing if 1282 01:14:26,940 --> 01:14:29,310 you're doing you're not doing transcripts, 1283 01:14:29,340 --> 01:14:31,110 Adam Curry: no, but you do both. You just said you did. 1284 01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,680 Tom Rossi: Right, we do. Yeah, but I'm saying that the people 1285 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:37,620 that we're talking about we're not calling out anybody by name, 1286 01:14:37,740 --> 01:14:39,270 but the people that we're talking about that's what 1287 01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,460 they're not providing transcripts. Right so I don't 1288 01:14:41,460 --> 01:14:44,160 think that's the problem is that they're not shifted correctly. I 1289 01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:46,050 think it's just they're not they're just not providing 1290 01:14:46,050 --> 01:14:46,680 transcripts. 1291 01:14:46,710 --> 01:14:48,330 Adam Curry: Okay. All right. Well, let's they start to 1292 01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,600 provide transcripts then they need to do that properly. 1293 01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:53,250 Otherwise people's age not good. 1294 01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:56,640 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. Cuz that's, that's the that's the 1295 01:14:56,640 --> 01:15:00,420 big the big pushback that happens with me, Mark Joe said 1296 01:15:00,420 --> 01:15:04,770 it on on, on that podcast that time he's like, Well, if you get 1297 01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,980 chapters and transcripts, they're great. But then as soon 1298 01:15:07,980 --> 01:15:10,530 as you get to an ad slot, it screws them all up. Well, if 1299 01:15:10,530 --> 01:15:13,740 that's the perception out there, that's really sloppy. That's 1300 01:15:13,770 --> 01:15:16,740 that's sloppy. You know if that's the perception that that 1301 01:15:16,740 --> 01:15:17,820 other app developers, 1302 01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:20,220 Adam Curry: and that's my point. So if you're providing 1303 01:15:20,220 --> 01:15:24,720 transcripts, and you don't have your your da, I rejigger the 1304 01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:32,430 timing, you can't have a logo. All right. Yes. That's the only 1305 01:15:32,430 --> 01:15:37,410 shame we can use no logo for you. Exactly. Can I just move 1306 01:15:37,410 --> 01:15:40,590 the conversation to a little thing from the front lines? To 1307 01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:45,570 noster? Do I hear and deliver? Did everyone go? Oh, 1308 01:15:46,410 --> 01:15:48,210 Dave Jones: yeah, did I mean I'll do it. Yeah. 1309 01:15:49,380 --> 01:15:51,510 Adam Curry: I'm just gonna keep telling you that there's 1310 01:15:51,510 --> 01:15:54,930 something there. And there's something going on with this. 1311 01:15:54,960 --> 01:16:00,900 And they're working on fig. Gigi posted a very thoughtful article 1312 01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:08,520 about how noster zaps could be split into and to respect 1313 01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:14,100 splits, in podcast. So in effect and make a noster. You could 1314 01:16:14,100 --> 01:16:19,080 have an austere app or payment system or mechanism that would 1315 01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:24,840 respect the splits in the value block. They call it prism or 1316 01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:30,600 whatever. I know that people are working on connecting podcast 1317 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:35,370 good to, to noster identity. 1318 01:16:36,750 --> 01:16:41,160 Dave Jones: Well, what? I don't know about this? No, I guess 1319 01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:42,540 show good show goods. 1320 01:16:42,570 --> 01:16:47,790 Adam Curry: Yes. So that you so I could as part of my Nasir 1321 01:16:47,790 --> 01:16:51,450 identity, I could connect anything to that I can connect 1322 01:16:51,450 --> 01:16:53,880 an Albea wallet, I can Can I should be able to connect my 1323 01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:57,510 podcast goods to it. These are the it would be the the 1324 01:16:57,510 --> 01:16:59,880 ownership of the source of truth, I think is what the 1325 01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:03,030 concept is. That makes sense. 1326 01:17:03,900 --> 01:17:11,160 Dave Jones: Yeah, that it's not anti Nasr. It's just that I just 1327 01:17:11,190 --> 01:17:13,830 I'm having a really hard time getting it's like getting 1328 01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:18,630 excited about it. Because it's the model. The model is 1329 01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:22,980 basically them forgive me, I know that's not 100% accurate. 1330 01:17:22,980 --> 01:17:28,260 But loosely, it's it's Tor is the Tor network. I mean, you 1331 01:17:28,260 --> 01:17:36,180 have nostre has relays Tor has exit exit nodes. And to me if 1332 01:17:36,180 --> 01:17:39,900 everything ultimately has to go through these relays or these 1333 01:17:39,930 --> 01:17:47,700 exit nodes, I don't see where at all, ultimately you get the 1334 01:17:47,700 --> 01:17:52,620 sense you how do you avoid the censorship. Because every every 1335 01:17:52,980 --> 01:17:56,730 I can tell you in a court at a corporate level, every firewall 1336 01:17:56,790 --> 01:18:04,860 package has built into it a rule called Tor exit nodes, you just 1337 01:18:04,890 --> 01:18:08,280 enable the rule and now your network is completely cut off 1338 01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:12,180 from Tor. The same thing could have the same thing can easily 1339 01:18:12,180 --> 01:18:14,670 be done with an austere you just immediately cut it 1340 01:18:14,670 --> 01:18:18,000 Adam Curry: off. That's not at all what I'm excited about. 1341 01:18:18,570 --> 01:18:22,380 Okay, the experience I have, I don't care how it works. I mean, 1342 01:18:22,380 --> 01:18:25,800 I understand a lot of it, I don't understand enough of it. 1343 01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:30,510 By the way, tours satisfies me very well every single day, I 1344 01:18:30,510 --> 01:18:34,110 have multiple nodes here at home running on it, I'm very happy, I 1345 01:18:34,110 --> 01:18:40,500 get payments in and out through the Tor network. So and I'm not 1346 01:18:40,500 --> 01:18:44,280 excited about censorship resistant, any more than I am 1347 01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:48,000 about Bitcoin being censorship resistant. What I find exciting 1348 01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:54,240 is I own my identity. This this is the exciting part to me, I 1349 01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:58,530 owe my identity to such a degree that I now actually have a 1350 01:18:58,530 --> 01:19:03,090 little nostril relay on my umbrella. So everything that I 1351 01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:08,730 do is basically backed up there. And so even if it's thrown off 1352 01:19:08,730 --> 01:19:13,290 of all the relays whatever, by hat by hat, my stuff and I find 1353 01:19:13,290 --> 01:19:19,140 it the intriguing part to me is that no matter what app or 1354 01:19:19,140 --> 01:19:23,880 service or anything that I've used, I show up and I put in my 1355 01:19:23,910 --> 01:19:28,500 public key and it knows who I am and it knows about stuff that I 1356 01:19:28,500 --> 01:19:30,810 have. That's exciting to me. 1357 01:19:31,890 --> 01:19:35,490 Dave Jones: Now I get you know, I get you it pushes it pushes 1358 01:19:35,490 --> 01:19:38,490 identity down the chain from the server level to the client 1359 01:19:38,490 --> 01:19:40,980 Adam Curry: let correct and what I'm what I'm seeing is 1360 01:19:40,980 --> 01:19:43,800 interesting things that you can do with that with with that 1361 01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:48,210 specific thing. I don't care if it if it ran over to tin cans 1362 01:19:48,210 --> 01:19:52,050 and a string. I like that part of the something about it that I 1363 01:19:52,050 --> 01:19:55,260 like I'm just going to keep identifying it. So when someone 1364 01:19:55,260 --> 01:19:58,560 says hey, if you have a podcast good we can connect that to it. 1365 01:19:58,590 --> 01:20:02,280 I can see kind of concept Surely, what can be done with 1366 01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:06,600 that? Just feels like this, you know, this public private key 1367 01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:08,370 thing? That's what attracted me to Bitcoin? 1368 01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:13,530 Dave Jones: Well, it feels, I don't know, I think the 1369 01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:20,850 cryptographically secure identity is oh, I'm trying to 1370 01:20:20,850 --> 01:20:25,380 figure out the right way to express this. Mine's my, my 1371 01:20:25,380 --> 01:20:31,110 first idea was to say that is overrated. I'm not sure that's 1372 01:20:31,110 --> 01:20:33,120 accurate, that I'm not sure that's an accurate 1373 01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:36,450 representation of what my thoughts are, though. Here, 1374 01:20:36,480 --> 01:20:42,720 here's a, I run into this from time to time. Where, and, and 1375 01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:49,230 seeing as how everything around noster very much emphasizes the 1376 01:20:49,260 --> 01:20:51,330 censorship resistance angle. 1377 01:20:51,390 --> 01:20:53,520 Adam Curry: Now, that's just that's just the early adopters 1378 01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:56,370 who just were talking about that. And those guys, most of 1379 01:20:56,370 --> 01:20:59,520 them are talking out of their ass. They're extremely excited 1380 01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:03,150 people. And they think, oh, yeah, I mean, believe me, every 1381 01:21:03,180 --> 01:21:06,840 email should be on noster I got it. Okay. But that's not going 1382 01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:10,830 to happen. Right? I understand that, that, but I'm mindful my 1383 01:21:10,860 --> 01:21:14,490 own book, I've been around, I've picked things up unusually, 1384 01:21:14,490 --> 01:21:17,910 pretty early. I'm just feeling something here. I'm gonna keep 1385 01:21:17,910 --> 01:21:22,140 saying it, because something is happening with it. That is, that 1386 01:21:22,140 --> 01:21:26,250 is beyond the technical bullshit and beyond, beyond whatever's 1387 01:21:26,250 --> 01:21:30,540 left or the toxic Bitcoiners there's something going on, it's 1388 01:21:30,540 --> 01:21:35,970 a very, there's a lot of positive energy. And, and I'm 1389 01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:40,920 just, I, I can't build anything, I can't do anything. But you 1390 01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:43,350 know, people come to me and say, Well, how about this? Oh, that 1391 01:21:43,350 --> 01:21:46,860 sounds pretty cool. And there's gonna be stuff coming out of it. 1392 01:21:46,860 --> 01:21:51,630 And I don't want to be so locked up in transcript resolution that 1393 01:21:51,630 --> 01:21:53,880 we forget to look at other things that are happening out 1394 01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:54,930 there on the battlefield? 1395 01:21:55,380 --> 01:21:58,650 Dave Jones: No, I don't really ultimately have no I have no 1396 01:21:58,650 --> 01:22:02,400 problem with the nostril people doing, do it. I just got I got 1397 01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:07,260 no problem with it. I guess. I mean, my my issues with the 1398 01:22:07,260 --> 01:22:10,260 reason I I'm trying to explain why I can't, while I'm not more 1399 01:22:10,260 --> 01:22:14,370 excited about it. That's really what it is. This is not Anton 1400 01:22:14,370 --> 01:22:19,380 Nasir, this is just really like, why is it not just really 1401 01:22:19,380 --> 01:22:24,030 lighten me up. And it's, I mean, like concrete, concrete, 1402 01:22:24,060 --> 01:22:28,530 cryptographically, secure identity only, it only matters, 1403 01:22:28,530 --> 01:22:33,870 it's only desirable when there's trust. Like, in a in a 1404 01:22:33,870 --> 01:22:39,570 situation, where you have a group, a group setting, let's 1405 01:22:39,570 --> 01:22:43,560 just use Mastodon, for instance, and podcast index dot social, I 1406 01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:49,860 do want an identity that is stable and secure. And proven. I 1407 01:22:49,860 --> 01:22:53,370 want when I post the podcast, index dot social, I want to be 1408 01:22:53,370 --> 01:22:59,010 known as Dave. And you know, in a way that nobody else can 1409 01:22:59,010 --> 01:23:05,100 tinker with, or mimic or impersonate outside of that 1410 01:23:05,100 --> 01:23:12,090 context. Concrete identity proof becomes not it's just it becomes 1411 01:23:12,090 --> 01:23:17,400 a lot less desirable. Like, in the big example would be, if 1412 01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:21,510 you're commenting on a random person's blog post, in their 1413 01:23:21,510 --> 01:23:24,660 comment thread on their WordPress site, I don't really 1414 01:23:24,660 --> 01:23:28,740 want to use my identity on that, like, I may be making a comment 1415 01:23:28,740 --> 01:23:33,870 on there. That's in this, this, this blog post is controversial. 1416 01:23:33,870 --> 01:23:37,590 And I may have a controversial opinion. And I and I'm not 1417 01:23:37,590 --> 01:23:40,800 really comfortable tagging my cryptographically secure 1418 01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:45,990 identity to this thing, like at once you leave sort of a a 1419 01:23:45,990 --> 01:23:52,470 trusted network and go out into other areas, concrete identity 1420 01:23:52,470 --> 01:23:57,450 becomes becomes less desirable and can all and can be even a 1421 01:23:57,450 --> 01:23:58,260 liability. 1422 01:23:58,769 --> 01:24:01,829 Adam Curry: You know, obviously, the simple answer is I have an 1423 01:24:01,829 --> 01:24:05,699 identity for this, I have an identity for that. And I do I 1424 01:24:05,699 --> 01:24:09,269 you know, I'm going to have an identity for Pornhub. At this 1425 01:24:09,269 --> 01:24:11,699 now I'm not going to use the same keys that I'm using for 1426 01:24:11,699 --> 01:24:14,909 other things. When it comes to specifically the mastodon 1427 01:24:14,909 --> 01:24:19,679 example. I know that in general, if I wanted to move my my 1428 01:24:19,679 --> 01:24:23,459 identity, well, my account now my identity, my username and my 1429 01:24:23,489 --> 01:24:26,939 followers, etc. And my post, I can move that to another server, 1430 01:24:27,209 --> 01:24:30,899 but I don't get the same identity, that's a new identity. 1431 01:24:31,079 --> 01:24:35,219 And someone else can prohibit me from doing that. It's not. We're 1432 01:24:35,219 --> 01:24:38,159 seeing it in two completely different ways, for me is the 1433 01:24:38,159 --> 01:24:40,859 idea of here's my stuff that's in this little ball, and I can 1434 01:24:40,859 --> 01:24:43,829 take it anywhere I want. I can plug it in there, and all my 1435 01:24:43,829 --> 01:24:46,559 stuff is going to come up or the things that I need to connect 1436 01:24:46,619 --> 01:24:49,799 for that particular environment are going to come up you know, 1437 01:24:49,799 --> 01:24:53,129 there's like high blood dot news, which is not a part of 1438 01:24:53,129 --> 01:24:57,419 noster not a part of the social network noster that uses the 1439 01:24:57,419 --> 01:25:02,249 same identity and then boom Boom, I put that in there, I can 1440 01:25:02,249 --> 01:25:05,399 write a newsletter that people can subscribe to which is 1441 01:25:05,399 --> 01:25:08,459 outside of the nostril, the social network, I found that to 1442 01:25:08,459 --> 01:25:12,449 be very empowering. All I did is I put in my key, my, my, my, my 1443 01:25:12,449 --> 01:25:15,959 face pops up stuff that I want known about me pops up. And it's 1444 01:25:15,959 --> 01:25:19,229 a whole different environment, in fact that I'll move it away 1445 01:25:19,229 --> 01:25:23,639 from noster. This is what I also find so attractive about using 1446 01:25:23,879 --> 01:25:28,559 booster grams. And I just wanted to throw out there as an as a 1447 01:25:28,559 --> 01:25:33,689 thought that I would be happy to put pod verse as an example, 1448 01:25:33,899 --> 01:25:37,829 into a split to have my booster and I've completely done a 180 1449 01:25:37,829 --> 01:25:40,379 on the booster gram public booster grams, to have my 1450 01:25:40,379 --> 01:25:44,339 booster grams that people send to me for the for that podcast 1451 01:25:44,489 --> 01:25:49,829 to show up on pod verse underneath that episode, I would 1452 01:25:49,829 --> 01:25:53,279 love to pay for that privilege. And for every other app, if 1453 01:25:53,279 --> 01:25:57,449 possible. These these are things that are from a non technical 1454 01:25:57,449 --> 01:26:00,809 person. And I'm not really it's not really about trust 1455 01:26:00,839 --> 01:26:05,429 cryptographically signed or censorship resistant, I see 1456 01:26:05,459 --> 01:26:09,299 features and things that I can do with this particular thing. I 1457 01:26:09,299 --> 01:26:12,899 can't just do create, I can create a newsletter on a 1458 01:26:12,899 --> 01:26:19,139 different service with my Mastodon account, I can't easily 1459 01:26:19,139 --> 01:26:24,449 make things appear on pod bursts unless I put a split in you see 1460 01:26:24,449 --> 01:26:26,549 these little things that I can do it makes me feel very 1461 01:26:26,549 --> 01:26:32,069 powerful as a content creator. Does that make sense? No. And 1462 01:26:32,370 --> 01:26:35,610 Dave Jones: you've, you've made sense to me since the beginning, 1463 01:26:35,610 --> 01:26:40,980 I fully understand why the why you're high on it. And the I 1464 01:26:40,980 --> 01:26:41,490 really did. 1465 01:26:42,480 --> 01:26:43,890 Adam Curry: I wouldn't say I'm high on it. 1466 01:26:45,300 --> 01:26:47,010 Dave Jones: You're pretty excited about I am I have 1467 01:26:47,130 --> 01:26:49,410 Adam Curry: I do have excitement about it. And I see that when I 1468 01:26:49,410 --> 01:26:53,340 see other people running around and excited about things. I want 1469 01:26:53,340 --> 01:26:55,470 to jump in the middle go this is exciting. What do we do? What do 1470 01:26:55,470 --> 01:26:59,580 we do? And then I see opportunities, and I get a 1471 01:26:59,580 --> 01:27:03,630 strong pushback from the podcasting 2.0 crowd. Well, 1472 01:27:03,690 --> 01:27:05,580 that's my feeling my feeling. 1473 01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:08,490 Dave Jones: Yeah, it's not a strong it's not eight. I 1474 01:27:08,490 --> 01:27:15,090 wouldn't classify my me as a push back. It's more of like I 1475 01:27:15,090 --> 01:27:18,810 said, there's there's a whole there's a whole discussion here 1476 01:27:18,810 --> 01:27:25,590 around like booster grants, for instance. I'm really glad that 1477 01:27:25,590 --> 01:27:30,420 booster grams don't have identity tied to them. I don't 1478 01:27:30,420 --> 01:27:31,740 like it. I don't know I 1479 01:27:33,060 --> 01:27:34,860 Adam Curry: don't have it. But I don't I'm not saying I want 1480 01:27:34,860 --> 01:27:37,020 booster grams with identity. I'm not saying that. 1481 01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:39,060 Dave Jones: I didn't think you were I didn't think you were I'm 1482 01:27:39,060 --> 01:27:42,510 saying what I'm saying is like there is value, the not the 1483 01:27:42,510 --> 01:27:47,040 nostril ethic, the nostril excuse me, the nostril ethos is 1484 01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:52,740 identity, identity identity. It's just it's that is the that 1485 01:27:52,740 --> 01:27:58,230 is the substrate that noster lives and breathes on. And is 1486 01:27:58,230 --> 01:28:01,800 cryptographically secure identity that is owned by you. 1487 01:28:02,340 --> 01:28:05,190 When I guess what I'm what I'm saying is outside of a 1488 01:28:05,190 --> 01:28:09,720 particularly outside of a trusted context. I don't see the 1489 01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:16,680 value of it. Like, like, I get what you're saying that you can, 1490 01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,020 oh, we'll just have different identities. But if I have all 1491 01:28:19,020 --> 01:28:22,080 these identities for everything else I'm doing except this one, 1492 01:28:22,380 --> 01:28:25,860 well, then it's it. It doesn't even matter if it's an identity 1493 01:28:25,860 --> 01:28:28,620 anymore, I could just make it up, which is essentially what 1494 01:28:28,620 --> 01:28:32,730 happens in booster grams, you just, you just your name is just 1495 01:28:32,730 --> 01:28:34,980 whatever you type into the box, when you send the booster gram, 1496 01:28:35,190 --> 01:28:37,650 you don't have an identity. So there's it doesn't even matter. 1497 01:28:38,460 --> 01:28:41,100 That's what I'm saying is outside of the, the 1498 01:28:41,310 --> 01:28:43,770 Adam Curry: okay, but I'm sorry, I shouldn't have conflated those 1499 01:28:43,770 --> 01:28:48,330 two, because I have I don't give a shit about fucking identity. I 1500 01:28:48,330 --> 01:28:51,600 care about this thing that I can use that I can do stuff with. 1501 01:28:52,260 --> 01:28:57,000 You see that and that's whatever ethos is noster is not my ethos. 1502 01:28:57,210 --> 01:29:01,350 I'm seeing a cool way to connect things with something that I 1503 01:29:01,350 --> 01:29:04,050 actually control instead of having to have someone else 1504 01:29:04,050 --> 01:29:07,350 maintain control over it. That's the same as booster grams. I can 1505 01:29:07,350 --> 01:29:11,070 send a booster gram to someone no one can stop me. I love that. 1506 01:29:11,610 --> 01:29:15,900 That's what I love about it. And then it it 1507 01:29:15,930 --> 01:29:19,170 Dave Jones: because you tied an identity to it. Mike Boone 1508 01:29:19,170 --> 01:29:19,560 stopped 1509 01:29:19,980 --> 01:29:22,860 Adam Curry: an identity. What difference does it make? It 1510 01:29:22,860 --> 01:29:25,200 could be it could be a new identity every single time it 1511 01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:27,480 could make a new one every time. That's my opinion. 1512 01:29:27,930 --> 01:29:30,030 Dave Jones: In this day, I'm glad you said I'm glad you 1513 01:29:30,030 --> 01:29:32,040 brought that up because that's exactly what happened with 1514 01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:36,480 Bitcoin Core. In the beginning in the early early early days of 1515 01:29:36,480 --> 01:29:41,160 Bitcoin everybody tended to reuse the same wallet ID because 1516 01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:44,850 it was sort of it was sort of like an identity. The this this 1517 01:29:44,850 --> 01:29:48,270 public key and rapidly people got away from that because they 1518 01:29:48,270 --> 01:29:51,690 wanted the privacy now you never do you always generate a new 1519 01:29:51,690 --> 01:29:58,950 wallet, wallet ID with every transaction. And so like the the 1520 01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:03,720 the digital I Identity aspect of North noster. Because it is so 1521 01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:08,700 baked into the ethos, it it. I see it becoming a liability more 1522 01:30:08,700 --> 01:30:09,000 than 1523 01:30:09,690 --> 01:30:12,120 Adam Curry: I think that's where you are. I don't think that this 1524 01:30:12,150 --> 01:30:15,450 that there's an ethos at all. But I think that there's a lot 1525 01:30:15,450 --> 01:30:19,410 of people who say things and there's there's impressions. I 1526 01:30:19,410 --> 01:30:22,920 don't think I have any Nasr ethos, I think I'm coming in, 1527 01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:26,280 and I see that I can do stuff with it, but I can't do with 1528 01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:27,120 anything else. 1529 01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:29,460 Dave Jones: But you don't run the network, you don't have a 1530 01:30:29,460 --> 01:30:32,250 nostre ethos, but you're not, but you're not you're not 1531 01:30:32,250 --> 01:30:35,040 building what they're building, they're building it and they do 1532 01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:36,600 have an ethos, that's 1533 01:30:36,690 --> 01:30:39,510 Adam Curry: that I challenge you on that. I don't think there's 1534 01:30:39,510 --> 01:30:42,810 one there. There. I think there's lots of people doing 1535 01:30:42,810 --> 01:30:47,100 lots of different things. There's, it's, there's, you 1536 01:30:47,100 --> 01:30:50,790 know, there's, there's item type one, and that's the social 1537 01:30:50,790 --> 01:30:54,600 network, you know, there, there can be so many different things 1538 01:30:54,600 --> 01:31:00,450 with this. That's kind of the point. Okay, so leave that where 1539 01:31:00,450 --> 01:31:04,260 it is. Let's just talk about booster grams. I like booster 1540 01:31:04,260 --> 01:31:09,510 grams as a feature of podcasting 2.0 that no one else has that no 1541 01:31:09,510 --> 01:31:16,170 other that and we know that the YouTube and an apple and 1542 01:31:16,170 --> 01:31:20,130 Spotify, they're never going to have it, that it's not within 1543 01:31:20,130 --> 01:31:26,340 their corporate DNA, I would like to do more with it, within 1544 01:31:26,340 --> 01:31:30,960 podcasting 2.0 That's the one super advantage we have over 1545 01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:36,540 anything else. Which is why, as a start, I'm suggesting doing 1546 01:31:36,540 --> 01:31:39,900 one ad on where it was initially, I would like to have 1547 01:31:39,930 --> 01:31:45,720 apps think about integrating booster grams per episode that I 1548 01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:51,240 can enable on their app by sending them a payment, putting 1549 01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:55,440 a split into my into my value block. Because I find that 1550 01:31:55,440 --> 01:32:00,480 exciting. So now I can add something new, that I can add, 1551 01:32:00,510 --> 01:32:03,420 it will be something I think is engaging. In fact, I know it's 1552 01:32:03,420 --> 01:32:08,160 engaging for people and and however any app handles that 1553 01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:11,130 lightning has, you know, has their or Fountain has their way 1554 01:32:11,130 --> 01:32:14,280 of doing it, I would like to see, I'd like to be able to do 1555 01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:17,370 more with that my audience can do more interact more with me 1556 01:32:17,370 --> 01:32:20,400 and my podcast, that it shows up in different ways in different 1557 01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:26,040 forms inside of a podcast app. That's that is the atom ethos 1558 01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:29,190 that I also see possible with noster. Does that make sense? 1559 01:32:34,830 --> 01:32:37,320 Dave Jones: You see, I mean, you're going this is you're 1560 01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:40,890 tying this back to I mean, this is the fountain comments. It's 1561 01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:44,700 that that style of thing is that you're telling him that just 1562 01:32:44,700 --> 01:32:48,510 Adam Curry: Fountain has made comments, I just be I just want 1563 01:32:48,510 --> 01:32:51,210 to show a leaderboard of my booster grams, could be 1564 01:32:51,210 --> 01:32:55,620 anything, I want to do more with booster grams. And I 1565 01:32:55,620 --> 01:32:57,840 Dave Jones: can already do that, right? You can already do the 1566 01:32:57,870 --> 01:32:59,310 histogram leaderboard and stuff, 1567 01:32:59,580 --> 01:33:03,420 Adam Curry: debit, I don't program stuff. I'm looking for 1568 01:33:04,110 --> 01:33:08,280 app developers who want to step outside of the box and do other 1569 01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,550 things and come up with other things that we can do. So if we 1570 01:33:11,550 --> 01:33:15,810 have a lit tag, maybe an app could have a, you know, a poll, 1571 01:33:15,810 --> 01:33:19,260 a live poll or a you know, vote for this or vote for that these 1572 01:33:19,260 --> 01:33:23,280 types of things are unique to what we're doing outside of 1573 01:33:23,310 --> 01:33:30,120 every other big company, big tech podcast experience. So I'm 1574 01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:33,240 identifying that as something that we that is clearly working 1575 01:33:33,270 --> 01:33:36,360 because people like it. And I think that we can do more with 1576 01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:36,810 that. 1577 01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:40,800 Dave Jones: Double I mean, essentially saying double down 1578 01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:44,550 on the things that are unique. Yeah, definitely emphasize 1579 01:33:44,580 --> 01:33:47,220 emphasize the made like, you know, build on top of those 1580 01:33:47,220 --> 01:33:51,120 things. Yeah, yes. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, for sure. For sure. 1581 01:33:51,540 --> 01:33:56,370 I mean, like, I mean, I had that on my notes is that is cute, 1582 01:33:56,370 --> 01:34:00,390 like polls. I mean, I don't know what you think about this, Tom. 1583 01:34:00,420 --> 01:34:05,790 I mean, is polls something. I've been kicking around for a while. 1584 01:34:05,790 --> 01:34:10,080 I mean, like, is it something worth doing in the namespace? Do 1585 01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:12,000 you think there's enough desire out there for something like 1586 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,950 that? Um, 1587 01:34:13,980 --> 01:34:15,900 Tom Rossi: I'm not sure. I think 1588 01:34:17,070 --> 01:34:18,540 Adam Curry: does have to be a namespace thing. 1589 01:34:19,650 --> 01:34:21,660 Dave Jones: I think it would have to be defined. It may make 1590 01:34:21,660 --> 01:34:25,080 sense to have it for because originally we said okay, and 1591 01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:27,090 this is true. You could do it in chapters. I mean, you could do 1592 01:34:27,090 --> 01:34:29,070 it would just kick it out to a web view, but that seems a 1593 01:34:29,070 --> 01:34:29,820 little chancy, 1594 01:34:30,210 --> 01:34:32,340 Adam Curry: but I'm done talking. I'm talking pure 1595 01:34:32,370 --> 01:34:35,880 polling. I'm not I'm talking about polling through boosts. 1596 01:34:37,350 --> 01:34:40,470 Okay, so just so you know, I'm not talking about a polling 1597 01:34:40,470 --> 01:34:44,520 system that I mean, a podcast hosts should even have to deal 1598 01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:50,820 with this. I don't think I mean, I, I'm talking about things that 1599 01:34:52,020 --> 01:34:53,370 maybe I'm wrong about that. 1600 01:34:56,580 --> 01:35:00,060 Dave Jones: If you define if you define like a pole, you You 1601 01:35:00,060 --> 01:35:03,510 know, you if we have some form that what this is what a poll 1602 01:35:03,510 --> 01:35:05,790 is, and you can put the questions and that kind of thing 1603 01:35:05,790 --> 01:35:08,340 like vote like, Yeah, I'm 1604 01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:10,080 Adam Curry: not looking for that. I mean, I'm, I'm looking 1605 01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:16,530 for something as simple as I don't know. I'm not creative 1606 01:35:16,530 --> 01:35:20,880 enough. And I certainly want to, I'd like to see stuff break and 1607 01:35:20,910 --> 01:35:23,760 mess around before we try and put anything into a namespace. 1608 01:35:23,790 --> 01:35:26,430 But it just seems like that's, that's where things go to be 1609 01:35:26,430 --> 01:35:31,950 argued about for a long time. And, and I get very, very bored. 1610 01:35:32,490 --> 01:35:33,900 Dave Jones: Or they come here to this show, they 1611 01:35:35,010 --> 01:35:36,090 Tom Rossi: go back to web hooks. 1612 01:35:37,980 --> 01:35:40,350 Adam Curry: I don't I don't mean it that way. It's like, okay, I 1613 01:35:40,350 --> 01:35:42,960 got I got the transcripts working. And when I'm told to do 1614 01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,990 it a different way. And like I what do I get excited by get 1615 01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:49,890 excited by seeing Martin's version of transcripts? That 1616 01:35:49,890 --> 01:35:52,380 think that and that's, he's taking what is already 1617 01:35:52,380 --> 01:35:54,660 available, what will be available, I'm excited about 1618 01:35:54,660 --> 01:35:58,500 that part. And how and how that works under the hood is is a 1619 01:35:58,500 --> 01:36:01,890 different part. I'm just saying, I feel that there's so much more 1620 01:36:01,890 --> 01:36:07,200 exciting stuff we can do with the uniqueness. I mean, it's not 1621 01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:10,230 a namespace thing like this, there's pew pew that's going 1622 01:36:11,220 --> 01:36:17,220 that's a feature that I have in my live show. And if there's a 1623 01:36:17,220 --> 01:36:20,580 service that I can send a split to, to have something else fly 1624 01:36:20,580 --> 01:36:25,530 off and spin and do somersaults, I want to do that. I'm trying to 1625 01:36:25,530 --> 01:36:30,630 say that there's more fun things we can do with our splits and 1626 01:36:30,630 --> 01:36:34,170 our payments, etc. Like boost bots, all these things are 1627 01:36:34,170 --> 01:36:38,820 really cool these things. More of that. It's not it's not I 1628 01:36:38,820 --> 01:36:42,360 don't think I'm even asking for a structured thing. I'm saying 1629 01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:47,370 where's the where's the we need more creative crap going on with 1630 01:36:47,370 --> 01:36:51,810 something that is really, really working and exciting, and I 1631 01:36:51,810 --> 01:36:56,850 think is much better than what what the Nastar Ellen. Ellen URL 1632 01:36:56,850 --> 01:37:00,870 stuff is, and we can do so much more. That's what I'm saying. 1633 01:37:05,820 --> 01:37:11,070 Tom Rossi: Kathrada tag you're talking about? Has Has Adam 1634 01:37:11,100 --> 01:37:12,330 looked at the pod roll? 1635 01:37:13,440 --> 01:37:14,340 Adam Curry: Yes, of course. 1636 01:37:14,910 --> 01:37:15,750 Tom Rossi: What do you think about that? 1637 01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:19,140 Adam Curry: I hate the name. But I understand the, to me, its 1638 01:37:19,140 --> 01:37:23,700 recommendations. You know, we've had this idea for a long time. 1639 01:37:25,140 --> 01:37:33,120 App developers are busy. I don't know. I mean, if it shows up, 1640 01:37:33,120 --> 01:37:38,280 I'll use it. You know, I'm, I'm probably more interested right 1641 01:37:38,280 --> 01:37:43,200 now in the remote item where, you know, I can finally have a 1642 01:37:43,230 --> 01:37:47,700 music on my show. And then I'll be able to send splits to the 1643 01:37:47,850 --> 01:37:53,130 owner and respect the splits of that owners work in the context 1644 01:37:53,130 --> 01:37:58,050 of my show. That will be more. That's an example of something 1645 01:37:58,050 --> 01:38:02,400 I'd like to do music in general. And we we see musicians showing 1646 01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:06,780 up in podcast apps. We're just leaving a lot on the table as, 1647 01:38:07,590 --> 01:38:11,370 as a creative group, not as a podcast. Body. 1648 01:38:12,179 --> 01:38:17,249 Dave Jones: Kevin, you I think, I think you brought up, you did 1649 01:38:17,249 --> 01:38:20,819 the pod roll. Right? You propose to what was your? What was your 1650 01:38:20,819 --> 01:38:22,709 vision for that when you when you proposed it? 1651 01:38:23,459 --> 01:38:27,599 Kevin Finn: The I hate algorithms. So yes, screw the 1652 01:38:27,599 --> 01:38:31,589 algorithms screw. I don't like the idea of a podcast app 1653 01:38:31,589 --> 01:38:34,469 listing my podcast when someone's listening the the app, 1654 01:38:34,859 --> 01:38:37,859 trying to make a recommendation of what the person should listen 1655 01:38:37,859 --> 01:38:41,189 to you next, like I'm the show creator, the people who are 1656 01:38:41,189 --> 01:38:44,129 listening, like hearing what I'm talking about what they should 1657 01:38:44,129 --> 01:38:48,539 be most interested in what I recommend. And so just display, 1658 01:38:48,569 --> 01:38:51,269 like, give me an option, give me a tag that I can put shows that 1659 01:38:51,269 --> 01:38:54,569 I think that my audience will also like, and display them 1660 01:38:54,720 --> 01:38:57,000 Adam Curry: was not the idea of the pod roll in the first place. 1661 01:38:57,059 --> 01:38:59,609 Kevin Finn: Yeah, that's the idea. It's just stupid, simple. 1662 01:38:59,879 --> 01:39:03,029 And I think it would be great. Like and we could put pressure 1663 01:39:03,029 --> 01:39:08,489 on app developers like whatever Pocket Casts overcast Apple What 1664 01:39:08,489 --> 01:39:11,279 Why are you why are you who you when someone's listening to my 1665 01:39:11,279 --> 01:39:14,789 content, to push them in the direction of your subscription 1666 01:39:14,789 --> 01:39:17,009 show or something that you're, you know, you're making 30% 1667 01:39:17,009 --> 01:39:17,279 Like, 1668 01:39:17,310 --> 01:39:21,090 Adam Curry: wow, you want to put pressure on people that's fuck 1669 01:39:21,090 --> 01:39:23,400 that noise. If that is 1670 01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,340 Kevin Finn: in my RSS feed, and then your list someone is 1671 01:39:26,340 --> 01:39:29,040 listening to my show, also show the rest of my stuff, which is 1672 01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:32,190 the other shows I think you should listen to. And then I 1673 01:39:32,190 --> 01:39:34,380 think if you if you want to go ahead and do your algorithm 1674 01:39:34,380 --> 01:39:35,700 stuff, knock yourself out. 1675 01:39:36,870 --> 01:39:41,850 Dave Jones: I think it makes sense because you have like the 1676 01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:44,460 the only thing you're left with is is I was listening to you 1677 01:39:44,460 --> 01:39:48,000 know, pod news weekly with talking about a cast and 1678 01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:52,080 recommendations and the various ways that it's not just them 1679 01:39:52,080 --> 01:39:54,270 that lots of people do this where they do the keyword 1680 01:39:54,270 --> 01:39:56,370 targeting and that kind of thing. When you boil it down to 1681 01:39:56,370 --> 01:40:00,180 categories and keywords. It just almost never works. Them Talking 1682 01:40:00,180 --> 01:40:03,090 about recommendation now for advertising. That's I don't 1683 01:40:03,090 --> 01:40:05,880 know, I don't understand that world. But when it comes down to 1684 01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:09,930 recommendations by algorithm, God, it's just it's a mess that 1685 01:40:09,930 --> 01:40:13,440 it just never works. Because you, you say, Okay, well, you 1686 01:40:13,440 --> 01:40:16,680 like, you know you like you're clearly interested in news and 1687 01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:20,280 politics because you listen to no agenda. Yeah, but this is not 1688 01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:23,610 exactly news. And politics is a completely different like, it's, 1689 01:40:23,640 --> 01:40:27,660 it's not the new. You listen to this show, because it takes a 1690 01:40:27,660 --> 01:40:31,260 cat, you listen to a show because it takes a category or a 1691 01:40:31,260 --> 01:40:36,060 keyword type thing and interjects some new life into 1692 01:40:36,060 --> 01:40:41,220 it. It's not about the category, it's about the content of that 1693 01:40:41,220 --> 01:40:45,690 specific show. And it's, that's an that's an intangible that you 1694 01:40:45,690 --> 01:40:49,710 can't quantify. Yeah, I totally agree. It's just me 1695 01:40:49,710 --> 01:40:52,470 Kevin Finn: being nostalgic. Also, like when in the 90s, I 1696 01:40:52,470 --> 01:40:55,320 would go to blog sites all the time, learn about my newsreader. 1697 01:40:55,530 --> 01:40:58,170 And how did I find the next blog that I wanted to read? Usually, 1698 01:40:58,170 --> 01:41:01,050 from a recommendation of a blog I was already reading. And there 1699 01:41:01,050 --> 01:41:04,140 were no algorithms pushing me in certain directions. And I don't 1700 01:41:04,140 --> 01:41:06,000 necessarily think algorithms are making the world better, 1701 01:41:06,060 --> 01:41:07,980 probably making it worse. But 1702 01:41:08,310 --> 01:41:12,060 Dave Jones: you follow the blog, carnival didn't you can remember 1703 01:41:12,060 --> 01:41:12,960 a lot of carnivals. 1704 01:41:13,170 --> 01:41:15,060 Kevin Finn: But I'd always go from one to the next I'd be 1705 01:41:15,060 --> 01:41:17,760 like, Oh, I love the way that this person writes. And I love 1706 01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:19,890 what they write about, what are they reading, and that would 1707 01:41:19,890 --> 01:41:22,590 always be in their blog role. I was like, that's just so simple 1708 01:41:22,590 --> 01:41:25,890 and beautiful. And that's what I want to bring back. I like it. 1709 01:41:27,270 --> 01:41:30,450 And so it's just simple. And it's, and I felt like I just put 1710 01:41:30,450 --> 01:41:33,360 it out there and it was done. And then, you know, everyone 1711 01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:35,880 wants to debate it, and maybe make it more complicated. But 1712 01:41:35,880 --> 01:41:38,310 some things are just so simple that I think they should just be 1713 01:41:38,310 --> 01:41:41,430 done in the first place. Like, put a little slap emoji on it. 1714 01:41:41,550 --> 01:41:44,460 Tom Rossi: And I like, I like the use of the of the podcast 1715 01:41:44,460 --> 01:41:47,760 quid because it gets more people using that as a unique 1716 01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:49,200 identifier for shows. 1717 01:41:50,430 --> 01:41:52,740 Dave Jones: Yeah, agreed. Rather than RSS feeds. 1718 01:41:52,890 --> 01:41:55,980 Adam Curry: Where are we on the GUID is that baked in? Are 1719 01:41:55,980 --> 01:42:00,030 people doing it is that? I love that idea. I think it's got 1720 01:42:00,030 --> 01:42:02,250 Dave Jones: broad adoption. Yes, guys. Yeah, pretty broad 1721 01:42:02,250 --> 01:42:06,990 adoption. At this point, I think I got halfway finished with a 1722 01:42:07,020 --> 01:42:09,660 good resolver. in it. I mean, it's functional, I just have to 1723 01:42:09,660 --> 01:42:13,170 go back and do do the deduplication work. And then 1724 01:42:13,170 --> 01:42:15,330 it'll be ready. If people can use it. I mean, it should just 1725 01:42:15,330 --> 01:42:17,310 be like DNS DNS for goods. 1726 01:42:17,370 --> 01:42:20,850 Adam Curry: I love that. That. That is, there's a lot of things 1727 01:42:20,850 --> 01:42:23,430 that can be done with that. And then I think it also makes a lot 1728 01:42:23,430 --> 01:42:27,330 of other things, even stuff like blog rolls or pod rolls easier. 1729 01:42:27,900 --> 01:42:29,760 Want to have, I think we have the, 1730 01:42:29,940 --> 01:42:32,700 Dave Jones: I have the resolver done that by the end of the 1731 01:42:32,700 --> 01:42:33,030 month. 1732 01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:36,240 Kevin Finn: But let me just throw out something like as a as 1733 01:42:36,240 --> 01:42:38,850 a principle for when we're talking about building stuff 1734 01:42:38,850 --> 01:42:41,580 when primarily maybe in the namespace, but but other places 1735 01:42:41,580 --> 01:42:46,470 as well. I feel like when we're talking about, I mean, some of 1736 01:42:46,470 --> 01:42:50,400 these concepts can certainly get complicated. And sometimes it 1737 01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:55,080 can't be avoided, I feel like it would be healthy for like the 1738 01:42:55,260 --> 01:42:59,160 specifically the namespace it when complication arises to try 1739 01:42:59,190 --> 01:43:01,320 like as a guiding principle to try to figure out how we can 1740 01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:04,560 push that complication on to the hosts. Now, Tom's not going to 1741 01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:13,440 love this. But I feel like we have really good host support. 1742 01:43:13,560 --> 01:43:18,150 And, you know, businesses like ours, we're healthy, we've got 1743 01:43:18,180 --> 01:43:21,750 we've got a decent sized staff, we've got good resources, and we 1744 01:43:21,750 --> 01:43:24,540 have a business model that works really well. And then you also 1745 01:43:24,540 --> 01:43:27,720 have broad adoption and support for what's happening. So you 1746 01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:29,640 have Buzzsprout, you have rss.com, and transistor and 1747 01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:32,310 blueberry and captivate and in red circles, doing some things. 1748 01:43:32,310 --> 01:43:35,910 So there's like, we have some maths, behind us on the app 1749 01:43:35,910 --> 01:43:38,640 side, the most support that we're getting are from 1750 01:43:38,670 --> 01:43:44,130 individual app developers, and they don't have the resources to 1751 01:43:44,190 --> 01:43:50,190 take on complication. We do. And so I would just again, it's I 1752 01:43:50,190 --> 01:43:51,810 mean, it doesn't make any business sense for me to make 1753 01:43:51,810 --> 01:43:54,780 this argument. But I'd rather see when complication arises 1754 01:43:54,780 --> 01:43:59,580 this instead of figuring out, you know, if there's the 1755 01:43:59,580 --> 01:44:02,100 possible possibility of moving that complication to one side or 1756 01:44:02,100 --> 01:44:04,050 the other, like I say, move it to the host side, 1757 01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:06,180 Adam Curry: I'm in total agreement. And I think here's 1758 01:44:06,180 --> 01:44:08,880 how it always works. And here's how you can see when things 1759 01:44:08,880 --> 01:44:14,040 work, or they don't. When people are creating content, no matter 1760 01:44:14,040 --> 01:44:17,880 what it is, if it's a person tag, that's content. So 1761 01:44:17,910 --> 01:44:20,220 obviously you have to be enabled. That's the chicken in 1762 01:44:20,220 --> 01:44:25,650 the egg. Nothing really moved in the podcast in 2.0 project until 1763 01:44:25,710 --> 01:44:30,390 Steven B. And many people tried it and it's very hard to do. And 1764 01:44:30,390 --> 01:44:34,080 I'm Martin tried it and a lot of people tried it to come up with 1765 01:44:34,140 --> 01:44:38,970 a very simple generator that was easy to adapt, and to throw in a 1766 01:44:38,970 --> 01:44:42,120 new tag that we came up with. And Steven B did that with 1767 01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:45,750 sovereign feeds. I love him for that. He's a he's a he's my hero 1768 01:44:45,750 --> 01:44:50,220 for doing that. So once we had a two or three bigger shows like 1769 01:44:50,220 --> 01:44:54,930 no agenda, etc, using that then app start to implement it. And 1770 01:44:54,930 --> 01:44:58,950 they will implement the things that that either are so 1771 01:44:58,950 --> 01:45:00,990 compelling that they will Want to implement it because you 1772 01:45:00,990 --> 01:45:03,120 know, it's their creativity, they want to do whatever they 1773 01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:07,500 want to do. But without the content flowing through, then it 1774 01:45:07,500 --> 01:45:11,370 just never happens. So it is a natural place for it. And that's 1775 01:45:11,370 --> 01:45:15,300 why I love you guys. Because you took the bull by the horns that, 1776 01:45:15,300 --> 01:45:17,970 okay, we're going to implement this, even if no one's using it, 1777 01:45:18,060 --> 01:45:21,930 well, then people start to use it. And I predict, as it always 1778 01:45:21,930 --> 01:45:25,860 have, that eventually, if we have enough transcripts enough 1779 01:45:25,860 --> 01:45:29,970 chapters enough, whatever it is, that every single app, even the 1780 01:45:29,970 --> 01:45:33,240 bigger apps will eventually, I mean, look, Pocket Casts is 1781 01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:35,580 going to start implementing things because there's enough, 1782 01:45:35,730 --> 01:45:38,160 oh, it's a half percent who are doing transcripts, they're going 1783 01:45:38,160 --> 01:45:42,990 to do it. They will, they will eventually do chapters two. So 1784 01:45:42,990 --> 01:45:46,440 it has to be from the publishing side. It always has to come from 1785 01:45:46,440 --> 01:45:47,520 the hosting companies. 1786 01:45:48,150 --> 01:45:50,880 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's where the egg is correct. Yeah. Yeah. 1787 01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:51,270 The chicken. 1788 01:45:54,270 --> 01:45:58,740 Adam Curry: And it's also where the where the education comes 1789 01:45:58,740 --> 01:46:03,210 from, you know, I will say that that's 60% of what hosting 1790 01:46:03,210 --> 01:46:05,310 companies do is educate their customers. 1791 01:46:08,010 --> 01:46:11,160 Dave Jones: What I what I want to do, what I want to do is dive 1792 01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:13,860 in headlong to the TXT record discussion, but I think we need 1793 01:46:13,860 --> 01:46:14,610 to thank some people. 1794 01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:16,860 Adam Curry: We definitely do. Wow, man. I thought we already 1795 01:46:16,860 --> 01:46:18,450 solved that with with the token. 1796 01:46:18,930 --> 01:46:22,470 Dave Jones: No, we do but I want to talk. I wanted to go head on 1797 01:46:22,470 --> 01:46:28,410 not not not not fixing it. In I wanted to go into a polemic and 1798 01:46:28,410 --> 01:46:31,230 apologetic for the TXT record because it's getting some hate. 1799 01:46:31,260 --> 01:46:33,120 So good. Anyway, I'll save that for next week. 1800 01:46:33,150 --> 01:46:34,620 Adam Curry: Let me thank a couple of people who have come 1801 01:46:34,620 --> 01:46:37,770 in live and we appreciate that and a value for value model. Of 1802 01:46:37,770 --> 01:46:41,700 course, Dred Scott has been all over the place. 12121 Thank you 1803 01:46:41,700 --> 01:46:45,810 boosting the pole. He says, Oh, the O L E is a different kind of 1804 01:46:45,810 --> 01:46:50,820 pole. I got it. Steven B with a Sacher Richards 11,111. Finally 1805 01:46:50,820 --> 01:46:53,310 right realizing this episode, and I'm glad to announce music 1806 01:46:53,310 --> 01:46:57,210 side project now has the ability to create custom playlists as as 1807 01:46:57,210 --> 01:47:01,590 any good music app should. Yeah, this is this has really taken 1808 01:47:01,590 --> 01:47:05,910 off. I mean, I'm plugging it everyone's musicians are coming 1809 01:47:05,910 --> 01:47:09,810 to him. This is good. Drab with another one to one to one drab. 1810 01:47:09,930 --> 01:47:14,610 I'm worried about Dred Scott can just stop for a second draft. 1811 01:47:15,030 --> 01:47:19,440 I'm gonna say this because I love you. And the things you do 1812 01:47:19,440 --> 01:47:23,490 for podcasting to point out the things you've done for my shows 1813 01:47:23,610 --> 01:47:28,740 the thing you've done for for no agenda. He's an Archduke Drib. 1814 01:47:29,370 --> 01:47:32,580 Please tell me you're not boosting away your kids college 1815 01:47:32,580 --> 01:47:37,050 fund. I just want to make sure I'm only half kidding. I get 1816 01:47:37,050 --> 01:47:38,430 worried when I see this. 1817 01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:43,350 Dave Jones: We will we started with namespace talk which he 1818 01:47:43,350 --> 01:47:48,300 went nuts. A lot. He lost it. What do you mean because that's 1819 01:47:48,300 --> 01:47:49,590 what he loves. He loves namespace. 1820 01:47:52,200 --> 01:47:54,630 Adam Curry: Stop my boost. He says no, there's no stop on the 1821 01:47:54,630 --> 01:47:57,510 boost. Exactly. Brian of London. 1948 haven't been listening, but 1822 01:47:57,510 --> 01:47:59,610 I'm very grateful that pod thing was put in the standard 1823 01:47:59,610 --> 01:48:04,500 excellent stuff. And there you go, guys. Then we move to 1824 01:48:04,530 --> 01:48:09,600 another Brian have lunch. Ah, yes. This is the 31,948 Satoshis 1825 01:48:09,600 --> 01:48:13,170 boosting live from a restaurant in Cyprus. Not listening, but 1826 01:48:13,170 --> 01:48:15,930 I'm sure you just had something excellent. Well, of course we 1827 01:48:15,930 --> 01:48:22,860 did. I did. Eric d p 33,333. Another Dred Scott except this 1828 01:48:22,860 --> 01:48:26,040 one is 121,212. 1829 01:48:26,700 --> 01:48:30,450 Unknown: Sad Carla 20 is Blaze on him. Paula 1830 01:48:30,480 --> 01:48:32,400 Adam Curry: that's when he was boosting for the live boost 1831 01:48:32,430 --> 01:48:33,150 Kevin Finn: to rip it 1832 01:48:34,800 --> 01:48:37,200 Adam Curry: up man is insane. I'm telling you. He's insane. 1833 01:48:37,560 --> 01:48:42,180 Our Davis 87 2000 pre boosting go podcasting. You got it man. 1834 01:48:42,180 --> 01:48:48,330 Thank you chat. F 3333 Great pre show content, Alwyn contracts 1835 01:48:48,330 --> 01:48:54,720 that would be from contracts, I guess. 12,001 2345 12,345 He 1836 01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:58,500 says episode split management. Come into contracts very soon. 1837 01:48:58,500 --> 01:49:01,980 Thanks, Dave. Yes. On onboarding through contracts love that 1838 01:49:02,010 --> 01:49:03,240 great idea. Very welcome. 1839 01:49:03,240 --> 01:49:06,390 Dave Jones: We gave him we gave him a built in a Partner API 1840 01:49:06,390 --> 01:49:07,920 over the last few weeks. Fantastic 1841 01:49:07,950 --> 01:49:10,800 Adam Curry: guy I love now being able to say hey, you want to 1842 01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:14,190 onboard the podcast and 2.0 here's all these hosts. Here's 1843 01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:18,180 how you guys respond to that to bus browsers. You know, here's 1844 01:49:18,180 --> 01:49:21,810 these different different places this app you know this service I 1845 01:49:21,810 --> 01:49:25,410 love that tone record one on one on one happy to report first 1846 01:49:25,410 --> 01:49:28,380 music collaboration happened organically on wave lake with 1847 01:49:28,380 --> 01:49:31,560 another artist in East Africa, finding a track I shared on 1848 01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:35,400 noster Oh, he added vocals posted a new version the next 1849 01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:39,090 day even dropped a wave Lake shout out in the new track. He's 1850 01:49:39,090 --> 01:49:42,270 now receiving SATs via V for V and another adventure is 1851 01:49:42,300 --> 01:49:48,510 underway in music space. Whoo hoo. Yes. Excellent them. I love 1852 01:49:48,510 --> 01:49:53,040 these collaborations. Then we have meters with 5000 Thank you 1853 01:49:53,040 --> 01:49:56,100 meters hardhat one on one a one with the pre boost. We 1854 01:49:56,100 --> 01:50:00,840 appreciate it. And I think we have one On pre boost here 1855 01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:06,630 blueberry with the evil 66,666. He says he'd like to open his 1856 01:50:06,630 --> 01:50:10,380 theater up to value for value ticket sales called free will 1857 01:50:10,380 --> 01:50:13,740 donations by the play publisher. Do you all think the for V is 1858 01:50:13,740 --> 01:50:16,620 viable for live theater and where would you feel the best 1859 01:50:16,620 --> 01:50:20,640 spot for the Ask would be ie at the website at the door pre show 1860 01:50:20,640 --> 01:50:25,950 announcement. Okay, I gotta think about this. That's that's 1861 01:50:25,950 --> 01:50:29,310 that goes a little bit beyond what my brain can handle today. 1862 01:50:29,610 --> 01:50:32,280 And then I hit the delimiter. So that is our pre boosters. We 1863 01:50:32,280 --> 01:50:34,800 appreciate it and Dave has more people to thank. 1864 01:50:35,070 --> 01:50:37,110 Dave Jones: I do we don't have any Pay Pal. We fully 1865 01:50:37,950 --> 01:50:40,140 Adam Curry: fully we've transitioned. We're trans. 1866 01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:45,180 Dave Jones: We have but we do have booths. We have many 1867 01:50:45,180 --> 01:50:48,630 booths. We have 2112 Rush booths from Leslie yami says running 1868 01:50:48,630 --> 01:50:51,840 with scissors on needles and pins at Caroline's monkey by 1869 01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:53,820 Depeche Mode. Martin Linda's go, 1870 01:50:53,849 --> 01:50:55,919 Adam Curry: why'd you want that one? We did that one didn't he? 1871 01:50:55,919 --> 01:51:00,269 Last week? He ordered again. Okay. We only play at once 1872 01:51:00,269 --> 01:51:00,719 Martin. 1873 01:51:02,970 --> 01:51:05,700 Dave Jones: The trickler that would be the sweetest trickler 1874 01:51:06,630 --> 01:51:09,330 500 says he's below the limit but I'm gonna give him a one 1875 01:51:09,330 --> 01:51:11,760 anyway because pretty much go podcasting. 1876 01:51:12,300 --> 01:51:12,960 Adam Curry: You got a man 1877 01:51:13,860 --> 01:51:17,610 Dave Jones: 6969 from Hey, citizen. He says boost boost. 1878 01:51:19,440 --> 01:51:25,380 Chip send us 22 to 23 through pod versus boost it to the top. 1879 01:51:26,460 --> 01:51:28,890 Adam Curry: This these were these are when we were singing 1880 01:51:28,890 --> 01:51:31,200 last week. I'm telling you this. I think we did these on the 1881 01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:33,630 premium did we? I think so. Yeah, I think we did these. 1882 01:51:33,960 --> 01:51:36,570 Dave Jones: Oh, you know what got Okay. All right. Yeah, 1883 01:51:36,780 --> 01:51:39,810 you're right. This got me because I started. We went we 1884 01:51:39,810 --> 01:51:40,890 did a Late Show. Yep. 1885 01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:43,320 Adam Curry: That's what it is. Yes. The timing was off. Of 1886 01:51:43,320 --> 01:51:43,680 course. 1887 01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:47,250 Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay. Let me just go through here. That's 1888 01:51:47,250 --> 01:51:50,580 right. 859. Yeah, these are like that night. Okay, I got you. 1889 01:51:50,730 --> 01:51:54,930 Okay, April 1. Here we go. Auburn citadel. 100,000 SATs. 1890 01:51:55,980 --> 01:52:01,230 Unknown: Bala. Sakala. 20. Is blades on am Paula. 1891 01:52:01,860 --> 01:52:04,710 Dave Jones: Yeah, your thanks for reminding me. He says pura 1892 01:52:04,710 --> 01:52:07,890 vida. So whatever that means. That's another. 1893 01:52:08,850 --> 01:52:11,490 Adam Curry: That's, that is actually the icky stuff of 1894 01:52:11,490 --> 01:52:12,150 noster 1895 01:52:12,660 --> 01:52:15,000 Dave Jones: that this is the nostril ethos. 1896 01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:19,800 Adam Curry: Yeah, okay, Dave. It's the North. Yes, that's it, 1897 01:52:19,860 --> 01:52:23,160 where people say, Have a nice day and good night. Yeah, I know 1898 01:52:23,160 --> 01:52:25,050 the bunch of dicks over there. Can't believe 1899 01:52:27,510 --> 01:52:30,300 Dave Jones: that always just a side note, that always tells you 1900 01:52:30,300 --> 01:52:33,510 that that that you're in the honeymoon phase of any 1901 01:52:33,900 --> 01:52:36,480 technology when you get them like Hey, good morning. 1902 01:52:36,510 --> 01:52:41,940 Adam Curry: Yeah, no. Yeah, that that that is the noster social 1903 01:52:41,940 --> 01:52:45,450 media network ethos, right. Yes, I agree. I agree. 1904 01:52:46,950 --> 01:52:51,120 Dave Jones: Cast VLAN 3690 says love this show. We love you 1905 01:52:51,120 --> 01:52:57,750 cast, we're sure do like a small satchel of Richard 1111 from 1906 01:52:57,750 --> 01:53:04,230 Joel Wu. Do fountain no note. CO McCormack. 3333 says, Dave, you 1907 01:53:04,230 --> 01:53:07,410 need to start doing the Wim Hof Method to stop getting sick. 1908 01:53:07,410 --> 01:53:08,700 Yes, we've been 1909 01:53:09,330 --> 01:53:12,030 Adam Curry: just drink your beef shakes now that's 1910 01:53:12,780 --> 01:53:16,170 Dave Jones: nailed one row for the show. Hey, hate to hear it. 1911 01:53:16,200 --> 01:53:19,170 I promise get healthy from breathing the podcast need you 1912 01:53:19,230 --> 01:53:24,090 go podcasting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 25,001 SAS from Clarkie and my 1913 01:53:24,090 --> 01:53:25,560 buddy says Beep boop 1914 01:53:27,990 --> 01:53:29,220 Adam Curry: boop All right, 1915 01:53:29,280 --> 01:53:32,820 Dave Jones: boost. Just listening since 300. SAS is 1916 01:53:32,820 --> 01:53:36,090 returning to the SAS on earned while listening on fountain. I'm 1917 01:53:36,090 --> 01:53:39,330 a musician in a small town. Just getting started and I'm going to 1918 01:53:39,330 --> 01:53:42,690 be launching my first albums in podcasting. 2.0 By the end of 1919 01:53:42,690 --> 01:53:43,740 the year, wish me luck. 1920 01:53:43,770 --> 01:53:47,130 Adam Curry: Yeah, and by the way, it's not just fountain it 1921 01:53:47,130 --> 01:53:50,790 works on many other apps go to podcast apps.com And make sure 1922 01:53:50,790 --> 01:53:53,400 you promote all of them because people will use them. 1923 01:53:53,730 --> 01:53:57,450 Dave Jones: It is properly decentralized. Jean bien 4000 1924 01:53:57,450 --> 01:54:00,810 says Thank you Gina. He says Adam talking about DJs today 1925 01:54:00,810 --> 01:54:04,470 makes me think about Tom Petty's the last SJ 1926 01:54:05,550 --> 01:54:06,480 Adam Curry: shot J 1927 01:54:09,900 --> 01:54:13,320 Dave Jones: gene been again 1337 leet boosts he says maybe the 1928 01:54:13,320 --> 01:54:18,540 music part of PSP can be a cig SRG aka special interest group. 1929 01:54:19,650 --> 01:54:23,190 You have lobbyists now okay. That's how things like this are 1930 01:54:23,190 --> 01:54:24,600 done in the Linux ecosystem 1931 01:54:24,630 --> 01:54:26,610 Adam Curry: right Usenet group use 1932 01:54:27,780 --> 01:54:30,720 Dave Jones: you're gonna be lobbied the Kevin I mean, do 1933 01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:33,420 people are gonna be you're gonna be having to pressured with 1934 01:54:33,420 --> 01:54:37,890 bribes and such do multiple things. You willing, you're 1935 01:54:37,890 --> 01:54:40,110 willing to go up against that and try to stay true to 1936 01:54:40,980 --> 01:54:42,870 Kevin Finn: my agreement in New York have 1937 01:54:45,150 --> 01:54:48,510 Dave Jones: been again 1330 says maybe this is a duplicate. I 1938 01:54:48,510 --> 01:54:52,260 hope that whatever ends up being used for chat is at a minimum 1939 01:54:52,260 --> 01:54:56,640 bridgeable to matrix like IRC is I'd like to avoid having yet 1940 01:54:56,640 --> 01:54:59,640 another client. Fair enough. 1941 01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:02,910 Adam Curry: Have you? Well, that is something worth talking about 1942 01:55:02,910 --> 01:55:04,650 next week. Yes. 1943 01:55:05,910 --> 01:55:11,670 Dave Jones: Bad career advice, Chad. Exhibit 2222 is a serious 1944 01:55:11,670 --> 01:55:16,200 suggestion might I recommend new media stat New Media Standards 1945 01:55:16,200 --> 01:55:20,430 Project? This is a named Jay. He can sit it can solve both 1946 01:55:20,430 --> 01:55:22,230 podcasting and music. Now we were 1947 01:55:22,650 --> 01:55:27,930 Adam Curry: talking about that we needed to add music on 2.0 1948 01:55:27,930 --> 01:55:28,860 value for value. 1949 01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:32,130 Dave Jones: That's right. Bad advice. suggestion. Also could 1950 01:55:32,130 --> 01:55:34,680 be the eventual defining body for when someone creates a V for 1951 01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:38,190 V version of only fans, new media all types. Well, that's a 1952 01:55:38,190 --> 01:55:39,090 completely separate 1953 01:55:39,300 --> 01:55:42,540 Adam Curry: ROI as promised that for three years, never gonna do 1954 01:55:42,540 --> 01:55:44,910 it. And never he's in charge of that subcommittee of the border. 1955 01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:51,210 Has anyone did chyron pickup the Cossack podcaster. Lady? He said 1956 01:55:51,210 --> 01:55:51,990 he's going to 1957 01:55:52,380 --> 01:55:56,370 Dave Jones: Yeah, yes, she's. He's on boarded her. She's on 1958 01:55:56,370 --> 01:55:58,140 the ship. Both her shows are V for V. 1959 01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:01,020 Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Well, good. Then we can have her on 1960 01:56:01,020 --> 01:56:01,500 the show. 1961 01:56:02,250 --> 01:56:06,660 Dave Jones: Notes. I guess it could be interesting. Sir Doug 1962 01:56:06,660 --> 01:56:11,220 10,000 sets he says it's been a while. Okay, thanks. Sorry, 1963 01:56:11,220 --> 01:56:15,900 Doug. Long time no, see. Boris kudelski 10,000 SATs he says 1964 01:56:15,900 --> 01:56:18,150 what do you think about podcast Anders project? You know what, 1965 01:56:18,150 --> 01:56:20,040 we love it worse. 1966 01:56:21,210 --> 01:56:23,820 Adam Curry: We have the two talked about it in great detail 1967 01:56:24,210 --> 01:56:27,690 Dave Jones: to ambassadors right here. Karen Speak of the devil 1968 01:56:28,380 --> 01:56:32,730 for the mere mortals podcast 4119 through pod verse, he says 1969 01:56:32,730 --> 01:56:34,890 draining this random wallet. Thanks for both of your help 1970 01:56:34,890 --> 01:56:35,910 this week. chyron 1971 01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:39,450 Adam Curry: by the way, did you hear his episode with Sam Sethi 1972 01:56:39,450 --> 01:56:45,390 CEO of pod fans? It is next on my list. qua Sam Sethi is an 1973 01:56:45,420 --> 01:56:49,740 interesting dude. I just thought yeah, it's just some random 1974 01:56:49,740 --> 01:56:54,390 Indian British guy. Yeah. Spoilers don't get me very very, 1975 01:56:54,390 --> 01:56:57,150 very interesting guy. Yeah, but you can't judge a book by its 1976 01:56:57,150 --> 01:57:03,090 cover or by his voice I'm saying this is a good thing as 1977 01:57:03,960 --> 01:57:06,810 interesting you'll love it. You'll is I was blown away by it 1978 01:57:06,810 --> 01:57:08,850 and you know Kyron car noises research. 1979 01:57:09,089 --> 01:57:12,179 Dave Jones: God he's a good me. He is a deep interviewer. He 1980 01:57:12,179 --> 01:57:17,909 goes all the way to the bottom. Yeah. 6969 from a citizen. He 1981 01:57:17,909 --> 01:57:20,609 says warriors armed with scissors and gaffer tape. 1982 01:57:20,759 --> 01:57:22,079 Adam Curry: That's us. That's right man. 1983 01:57:22,110 --> 01:57:25,140 Dave Jones: Thank you. Josh pro 1000 says he says Pocket Casts 1984 01:57:25,140 --> 01:57:29,040 beats fountain like a $2 mule whoo Goodness gracious 1985 01:57:29,520 --> 01:57:30,450 Adam Curry: talk right there. 1986 01:57:30,719 --> 01:57:34,499 Dave Jones: Josh would you drink this morning so I'm gonna 1987 01:57:34,650 --> 01:57:36,420 Adam Curry: secure going back here Aveda. 1988 01:57:39,240 --> 01:57:41,760 Dave Jones: Figured my meager earn set should go to the best 1989 01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:45,180 calls go podcasting. Yeah, man. Yes, fountain. Hey, gosh, 1990 01:57:45,540 --> 01:57:48,750 Borlaug. 50,000 SATs through pod verse he says letting you know 1991 01:57:48,750 --> 01:57:51,060 this project means a lot to us and wanted to 1992 01:57:51,060 --> 01:57:52,560 Adam Curry: say thank you. Oh, you're welcome. 1993 01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:56,970 Dave Jones: Thank you from Borla Thank you, Lyceum 22 to 22 1994 01:57:56,970 --> 01:58:00,660 through fountain he says you have the rabbits what you have 1995 01:58:00,660 --> 01:58:04,410 the rabbits hairs in the row. The podcasting 2.0 initiative is 1996 01:58:04,410 --> 01:58:08,220 the rebirth of the internet radio on demand. Leo Laporte 1997 01:58:08,220 --> 01:58:10,980 suggestion for a new word for podcast is getting more and more 1998 01:58:10,980 --> 01:58:15,450 appropriate You are the light was lit live Adam tag cross apps 1999 01:58:15,570 --> 01:58:19,140 cross cross comments threads value for value music etc. Go 2000 01:58:19,140 --> 01:58:19,860 podcasting 2001 01:58:19,920 --> 01:58:25,740 Adam Curry: shows Martin Linda's code go yeah, he's up there in 2002 01:58:25,740 --> 01:58:30,900 Nigeria. Me in Sweden. Yeah, like in Spotify his backyard 2003 01:58:31,050 --> 01:58:31,950 light him up man. 2004 01:58:33,030 --> 01:58:35,820 Dave Jones: Who is 25,000 says through fountain he says thank 2005 01:58:35,820 --> 01:58:39,210 you day for generating a pod think token. This will help RSS 2006 01:58:39,210 --> 01:58:40,950 blue reach its ESG commitment. 2007 01:58:44,100 --> 01:58:46,170 Adam Curry: That's right. Yeah, you should take you should get 2008 01:58:46,170 --> 01:58:47,340 carbon credits for that. 2009 01:58:47,700 --> 01:58:50,820 Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah, we should both get he should and should. 2010 01:58:50,820 --> 01:58:54,990 Yeah, because Exactly. There was this was that type of week where 2011 01:58:54,990 --> 01:58:58,830 there's a whole lot of like, private people asking me for 2012 01:58:58,830 --> 01:58:59,970 things and doing stuff. So 2013 01:59:00,090 --> 01:59:03,240 Adam Curry: no one ever asked me for anything. Let me know if you 2014 01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:06,630 want to. I can pass it along if you'd like no, I mean I'm the 2015 01:59:06,690 --> 01:59:09,420 I'm the frontline man. I'm the triage. I'm up there with people 2016 01:59:09,420 --> 01:59:15,750 saying, hey, my episodes are out of order. Fiction like Jimmy 2017 01:59:15,810 --> 01:59:17,700 Kimmel with the name of the show is 2018 01:59:18,420 --> 01:59:22,710 Dave Jones: DM me on Mastodon is a way to loophole and get around 2019 01:59:22,710 --> 01:59:23,820 behind your firewall 2020 01:59:23,820 --> 01:59:25,800 Adam Curry: really well. You should block them for that. 2021 01:59:25,830 --> 01:59:28,800 That's not cool, though. You've got to go through info at 2022 01:59:28,800 --> 01:59:32,550 podcast index.org and I will sign my initials to your email 2023 01:59:32,550 --> 01:59:33,630 and I will help you. 2024 01:59:33,990 --> 01:59:37,650 Dave Jones: That's right. Okay, delimiter comes through blogger 2025 01:59:37,650 --> 01:59:43,020 3015 says, darling Dave and amigo Adam, did you know that 2026 01:59:43,020 --> 01:59:47,220 the word robot originates from Slavic language? No did not. 2027 01:59:47,700 --> 01:59:50,790 Then you simply must brush up on vital knowledge pertinent to 2028 01:59:50,790 --> 01:59:54,510 preventing a pernicious future for us all. Subscribe to the AI 2029 01:59:54,510 --> 01:59:58,590 dog cooking podcast show. It is a superb resource to assist in 2030 01:59:58,590 --> 02:00:01,560 that endeavor. The single greatest feat of the human race 2031 02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:05,430 can look to achieve is to shake loose the shackles of servitude. 2032 02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:06,150 Yo 2033 02:00:06,780 --> 02:00:13,470 Adam Curry: CSB and gruff Goethe. Wow we got some they're 2034 02:00:13,470 --> 02:00:16,740 very, very creative comics or Blogger very, very creative 2035 02:00:16,740 --> 02:00:19,290 every single day. I appreciate that. Yes, thank you all for 2036 02:00:19,290 --> 02:00:21,660 your booster grams and for your boost and for your streaming 2037 02:00:21,660 --> 02:00:25,770 saps and monthly these are Fiat fun coupons mainly. 2038 02:00:26,400 --> 02:00:29,820 Dave Jones: Yes. Congratulations to go off on the new human 2039 02:00:29,820 --> 02:00:33,870 resource by the way. Oh, yes. Indeed. Monthly Scott Jalbert. 2040 02:00:33,870 --> 02:00:41,310 $12. Chad, Pharaoh $20.22. Thank you, Chad. Mark, gram $1. Joseph 2041 02:00:41,310 --> 02:00:46,530 maraca $5, Jeremy new $5 Cameron, Rose $25 and new media. 2042 02:00:46,560 --> 02:00:48,210 That's Martin Linda scope. $1. 2043 02:00:48,420 --> 02:00:50,940 Adam Curry: Thank you all very much. And just so you know. And 2044 02:00:50,940 --> 02:00:53,820 when you hear people throwing around big numbers and stats and 2045 02:00:53,820 --> 02:00:57,420 everything, it doesn't matter to us, as long as you're sending 2046 02:00:57,420 --> 02:01:00,900 back value data for something that you received and whatever 2047 02:01:00,900 --> 02:01:04,140 you find valuable, we can't determine that. So for one, it's 2048 02:01:04,170 --> 02:01:08,940 it's $1. For one, it's $5. For one, it's 1111 SATs for one. 2049 02:01:08,940 --> 02:01:12,540 It's 500 SATs for another it's 50,000 SATs. We appreciate it 2050 02:01:12,540 --> 02:01:14,790 all it's how it's supposed to work. And you have been keeping 2051 02:01:14,790 --> 02:01:17,850 the lights on here for going on three years. If you'd like to 2052 02:01:17,850 --> 02:01:20,280 support us go to podcast index.org. At the bottom, you 2053 02:01:20,280 --> 02:01:22,740 see two Oh, I should probably check it right now always forget 2054 02:01:22,740 --> 02:01:27,600 to check the tally coin. We have a red button there a donate 2055 02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:30,840 button, which is for PayPal for your Fiat fun coupons and we 2056 02:01:30,840 --> 02:01:36,000 have the tally coin. And let's see, nope, that's for the on 2057 02:01:36,000 --> 02:01:38,700 chain. People begged and begged and begged that we do it and no 2058 02:01:38,700 --> 02:01:42,570 one ever showed up except Dred Scott. I guess Dred Scott is the 2059 02:01:42,570 --> 02:01:45,600 one who's always doing it, we appreciate it so much. And of 2060 02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:50,130 course, the preferred method is to get into the ecosystem and to 2061 02:01:50,130 --> 02:01:54,060 boost us booster grams with a modern podcast app at podcast 2062 02:01:54,060 --> 02:01:54,930 apps.com. 2063 02:01:55,710 --> 02:02:00,870 Dave Jones: To underscore what you said, I've spun up a new 2064 02:02:00,870 --> 02:02:06,840 server today, a $5 server on Linode to host the index for the 2065 02:02:06,840 --> 02:02:12,570 reverse lookup from enclosures to feed IDs. And it was $5 2066 02:02:12,570 --> 02:02:13,500 server. So what 2067 02:02:13,500 --> 02:02:17,070 Adam Curry: will that do the reverse lookup to whatever you 2068 02:02:17,070 --> 02:02:17,610 just said. 2069 02:02:20,790 --> 02:02:25,200 Dave Jones: You, it will allow people to put in to the API a 2070 02:02:25,230 --> 02:02:29,520 enclosure URL, and it will spit out what feed it belongs to. 2071 02:02:30,180 --> 02:02:34,080 Cool. Cool. Yeah, because evidently, it's a bigger thing 2072 02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:37,770 than I realized that people sometimes know the enclosure 2073 02:02:37,770 --> 02:02:42,300 URL, like Spurlock and op three. They know the enclosure URL, but 2074 02:02:42,300 --> 02:02:44,880 they don't know where it's coming on podcast it belongs to 2075 02:02:45,930 --> 02:02:48,570 Adam Curry: it's a Spurlock special, special request 2076 02:02:48,570 --> 02:02:49,230 basically. 2077 02:02:49,470 --> 02:02:52,830 Dave Jones: It actually wasn't him. It was it was it was 2078 02:02:52,830 --> 02:02:55,410 prompted by Dan Benjamin, he because he was he's building 2079 02:02:55,560 --> 02:02:58,980 pieces over that needed the same thing. So and then Spurlock's 2080 02:02:58,980 --> 02:03:00,000 like, hey, I need that too. 2081 02:03:00,030 --> 02:03:03,300 Adam Curry: I was wondering, you know, because I put no agenda 2082 02:03:03,330 --> 02:03:06,030 into the Opie three system. I have to be honest, I never 2083 02:03:06,030 --> 02:03:08,040 looked at the stats, but I know what kind of what they are. 2084 02:03:08,310 --> 02:03:10,860 Should I just as a as a lark? Should I put it into one of 2085 02:03:10,860 --> 02:03:13,620 those other leaderboard things with people? Because I hear 2086 02:03:13,620 --> 02:03:17,400 these numbers like, oh, this, this podcast had, you know, had 2087 02:03:17,430 --> 02:03:21,780 50 500,000 downloads and like, Dude, I do that in a week or 2088 02:03:21,780 --> 02:03:25,020 two, maybe I don't know. Maybe we should just go mess up all 2089 02:03:25,020 --> 02:03:30,180 those leaderboards. I pop up in the I heart numbers and stuff. I 2090 02:03:30,180 --> 02:03:33,690 mean, I keep hearing James Yeah, he does. He always does all 2091 02:03:33,690 --> 02:03:36,330 these, all these different things. And but this person 2092 02:03:36,330 --> 02:03:38,250 doesn't measure that. And they they don't measure that. I'd 2093 02:03:38,250 --> 02:03:41,220 like to put mine in everywhere. Just see what happens if we show 2094 02:03:41,220 --> 02:03:43,830 up late rancor. Yeah. Why the rancor? Yeah, I want to be in a 2095 02:03:43,830 --> 02:03:45,540 rancor. Yeah, that'll be fun. 2096 02:03:46,230 --> 02:03:48,330 Dave Jones: Hey, I like it. That's good. Do 2097 02:03:48,480 --> 02:03:51,900 Adam Curry: you want to still do texts were to inform but if you 2098 02:03:51,900 --> 02:03:56,280 want to dive in, I'm cool with it. Limited it, Dave. 2099 02:03:57,060 --> 02:03:59,190 Dave Jones: Okay, I was going to ask you this first one that was 2100 02:03:59,190 --> 02:04:02,280 first question on the list was have you implemented it yet? Is 2101 02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:04,740 it right? I mean, it's out the door is baked? Oh, yeah. 2102 02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:08,280 Tom Rossi: Yeah. Okay. So the way that we're doing it is we're 2103 02:04:08,280 --> 02:04:11,850 using it to verify ownership. But I think that's just one use 2104 02:04:11,850 --> 02:04:15,450 case for Right. Like there can be more, if there's ever a need 2105 02:04:15,450 --> 02:04:19,080 to put something in your RSS feed, like the DNS, I mean, what 2106 02:04:19,080 --> 02:04:21,150 it's inspired by DNS txt, 2107 02:04:21,510 --> 02:04:26,280 Adam Curry: when. So being on the front lines of info dot 2108 02:04:26,280 --> 02:04:31,140 podcast index.org when someone shows up and says, I want I want 2109 02:04:31,140 --> 02:04:38,280 I want and they have a Buzzsprout feed. So now i What 2110 02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:40,980 do I tell them to verify? Because not not that I don't 2111 02:04:40,980 --> 02:04:44,010 trust them, but now I just want to mess with them. So what do I 2112 02:04:44,010 --> 02:04:46,680 tell them? What do they have to do when I say well, you got to 2113 02:04:46,680 --> 02:04:48,990 verify your feed. How do I do that? 2114 02:04:49,260 --> 02:04:51,510 Kevin Finn: You can give them a code word or a number I 2115 02:04:51,510 --> 02:04:53,250 Adam Curry: can just I can just give them anytime I say put this 2116 02:04:53,250 --> 02:04:56,370 in here. And what is it called? You don't call it a TX t do you? 2117 02:04:56,370 --> 02:04:58,140 What do you call it on the verification? What do you call 2118 02:04:58,140 --> 02:04:59,070 it in your UI? 2119 02:04:59,430 --> 02:05:02,910 Kevin Finn: It says email address or token, Ah, okay. It 2120 02:05:02,910 --> 02:05:04,410 would take anything. So you cannot 2121 02:05:04,410 --> 02:05:08,160 Dave Jones: address or Okay, so you can when you so in 2122 02:05:08,160 --> 02:05:12,750 Buzzsprout UI, if you go in the in the email address or token 2123 02:05:12,750 --> 02:05:17,370 field, if I plug in the email address, it goes into the TXT 2124 02:05:17,370 --> 02:05:17,820 record. 2125 02:05:19,050 --> 02:05:22,650 Tom Rossi: Yeah, it's in the, under the RSS feel like in the, 2126 02:05:22,830 --> 02:05:27,030 when you go to look at your, your RSS feed, there's a thing 2127 02:05:27,030 --> 02:05:30,480 down at the bottom that allows you to verify ownership. And it 2128 02:05:30,480 --> 02:05:32,820 says put in an email address or a token. 2129 02:05:33,600 --> 02:05:35,970 Kevin Finn: If you put an email address it, I don't know if we 2130 02:05:35,970 --> 02:05:39,600 put it actually in the textfield. So yeah, we're just 2131 02:05:39,600 --> 02:05:41,520 trying to be a little clever. So if we recognize an email 2132 02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:45,300 address, we'll actually add it as a iTunes owner. Drop it in 2133 02:05:45,420 --> 02:05:46,440 there, because that's what 2134 02:05:48,180 --> 02:05:50,370 Dave Jones: are you gonna keep doing that even after Apple 2135 02:05:50,370 --> 02:05:51,420 deprecates that tag? 2136 02:05:53,070 --> 02:05:55,020 Kevin Finn: Well as Google, here's the here's the weird 2137 02:05:55,020 --> 02:05:57,600 thing. Yeah, it's Apple's tag that they deprecated but people 2138 02:05:57,600 --> 02:05:58,170 still use it. 2139 02:05:58,200 --> 02:06:00,660 Adam Curry: So Okay. Um, yeah, I'm a little confused. So if I 2140 02:06:00,660 --> 02:06:02,760 give someone cuz of course, I want to give someone a token, 2141 02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:09,360 like a really weird number. 808 You have put that in? Five. 2142 02:06:09,960 --> 02:06:13,530 that'll, that'll show up where? In their feed? 2143 02:06:14,940 --> 02:06:17,220 Kevin Finn: In the podcast, text tag. Okay, so we'll show up 2144 02:06:17,220 --> 02:06:17,940 there. Oh, perfect. 2145 02:06:17,970 --> 02:06:20,340 Adam Curry: Okay, I can't wait to do that. I'm excited. I'm 2146 02:06:20,340 --> 02:06:21,630 excited to send people back. 2147 02:06:21,660 --> 02:06:23,610 Kevin Finn: Everyone has the same verification token when you 2148 02:06:23,610 --> 02:06:24,150 go through them. 2149 02:06:29,100 --> 02:06:31,740 Adam Curry: No, I'm gonna give you a nostril. I'm gonna give 2150 02:06:31,740 --> 02:06:34,290 you a nostril public key. I copy this. 2151 02:06:35,130 --> 02:06:35,880 Dave Jones: Oh, no. 2152 02:06:37,860 --> 02:06:39,150 Tom Rossi: That sounds like the ethos. 2153 02:06:42,330 --> 02:06:45,630 Dave Jones: Because ever, because Sam was just, Sam was 2154 02:06:45,630 --> 02:06:49,500 just I read about the TX T tag in the deprecation of email. So 2155 02:06:49,500 --> 02:06:52,380 just I just wanted to run over real quick, since we're doing 2156 02:06:52,380 --> 02:06:59,070 this. The thing is Apple is Apple is deprecating that, and 2157 02:06:59,100 --> 02:07:04,200 they are still, when they deprecate something. It's, it's 2158 02:07:04,200 --> 02:07:07,500 a big deal. I mean, as much as we as much as none of us like 2159 02:07:07,500 --> 02:07:11,070 it, it is a big deal. And it's gonna have wide ranging effects. 2160 02:07:11,070 --> 02:07:15,750 So we had to do something, it wasn't a choice. And so when we 2161 02:07:15,750 --> 02:07:21,180 talked to Ted, at Podcast Movement, he was like, Look, 2162 02:07:21,180 --> 02:07:24,600 this is what we're, this is what we do internally, we give when 2163 02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:27,450 people want to claim their show on Apple podcasts, we give them 2164 02:07:27,450 --> 02:07:31,200 a code, a random string of characters, and we tell them to 2165 02:07:31,200 --> 02:07:34,230 stick it in their show notes, we would like and we're not going 2166 02:07:34,230 --> 02:07:36,960 to stop. That's the way we're going to do this. This is not 2167 02:07:36,960 --> 02:07:40,770 negotiable. Because that's the way that our support team needs 2168 02:07:40,770 --> 02:07:45,540 it to function. So we would really like it to be inserted to 2169 02:07:45,540 --> 02:07:48,600 be a special tag to house this value. So that doesn't have to 2170 02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:51,810 ugly up there. Show Notes. Basically, that's what we were 2171 02:07:51,810 --> 02:07:55,140 told. And it was like, Okay, well, this is that's fine. I 2172 02:07:55,140 --> 02:07:59,550 mean, y'all are sort of driving this whole ship. So 2173 02:07:59,700 --> 02:08:02,880 Adam Curry: So now, but it's not actually in the show notes in a 2174 02:08:02,880 --> 02:08:04,200 separate field. 2175 02:08:05,070 --> 02:08:06,780 Dave Jones: Yes, that's right. That's right. So now it's 2176 02:08:06,780 --> 02:08:09,360 hidden. It doesn't ugly up your show notes was just some random 2177 02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:09,750 string of 2178 02:08:09,810 --> 02:08:12,270 Adam Curry: all right. But But I just heard you say is, here's 2179 02:08:12,300 --> 02:08:15,180 it's non negotiable, you put it in your show notes. But we'd 2180 02:08:15,180 --> 02:08:16,890 like it to be in a TXT field. 2181 02:08:16,920 --> 02:08:19,770 Tom Rossi: Well, no, it's non negotiable. I think that they 2182 02:08:19,770 --> 02:08:23,640 want to put that token into the RSS feed, where it goes is 2183 02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:26,370 negotiable. Even in their instructions, when they tell a 2184 02:08:26,370 --> 02:08:29,520 podcaster to put it in there. They tell him like multiple 2185 02:08:29,520 --> 02:08:32,370 places they can put it, I really think they just look anywhere in 2186 02:08:32,370 --> 02:08:34,140 the RSS feed to see if that 2187 02:08:34,140 --> 02:08:35,580 Adam Curry: token exists, we should probably get a 2188 02:08:35,580 --> 02:08:36,780 confirmation on that. 2189 02:08:37,320 --> 02:08:40,050 Dave Jones: Well, what I meant by none, the part that I meant 2190 02:08:40,050 --> 02:08:45,030 that was non negotiable. Is is that they were not open to doing 2191 02:08:45,030 --> 02:08:47,970 this any other way. And they weren't going to say oh, we'll 2192 02:08:47,970 --> 02:08:50,670 do Oh off or we'll do something that they're like, no. Okay, 2193 02:08:50,700 --> 02:08:50,940 well, I'm 2194 02:08:50,940 --> 02:08:53,370 Adam Curry: just saying because, you know, we know Apple and then 2195 02:08:53,370 --> 02:08:55,530 but no, no, we're looking in the shownotes. Now, we're not gonna 2196 02:08:55,530 --> 02:08:58,950 look at the gxg field. I'm just, you know, I would hate I would 2197 02:08:58,950 --> 02:08:59,130 hate 2198 02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:01,410 Dave Jones: it. I think that's fine. I think they just do it. 2199 02:09:01,890 --> 02:09:05,250 Honestly, I think they just do it string search in the whole 2200 02:09:05,280 --> 02:09:05,820 entire I 2201 02:09:05,820 --> 02:09:06,960 Tom Rossi: think yeah, I think that's 2202 02:09:07,530 --> 02:09:09,570 Kevin Finn: sounds right. But I mean, 2203 02:09:09,600 --> 02:09:13,410 Dave Jones: but but to to ease Sam and everybody else, I mean, 2204 02:09:13,950 --> 02:09:18,120 this can be a very simple process. And like it doesn't for 2205 02:09:18,120 --> 02:09:23,850 this doesn't for preclude other ways of doing it. Like we just 2206 02:09:23,850 --> 02:09:26,910 talked about oak inscriptions. And that can be other other ways 2207 02:09:26,910 --> 02:09:29,340 can arise for doing feed verification, that's fine. And 2208 02:09:29,340 --> 02:09:31,680 I've got it, I've got an idea as well that I'm going to implement 2209 02:09:31,680 --> 02:09:35,610 after the good resolver thing is done. But the for us web hooks, 2210 02:09:35,760 --> 02:09:36,270 web hooks. 2211 02:09:39,330 --> 02:09:41,640 Adam Curry: web hooks, I'm giving you the web hook here. 2212 02:09:41,730 --> 02:09:42,420 All right. 2213 02:09:43,740 --> 02:09:46,800 Dave Jones: But you know it, other things can arise but I 2214 02:09:46,800 --> 02:09:50,130 mean, this, this really was almost like a, I don't know, 2215 02:09:50,130 --> 02:09:54,270 like a self defense move. To have something ready for that 2216 02:09:54,270 --> 02:09:58,020 would actually would encompass what Apple said that's what 2217 02:09:58,020 --> 02:09:58,110 they're 2218 02:09:58,110 --> 02:10:01,680 Adam Curry: doing. So I would say if I feel Sam's pain because 2219 02:10:01,680 --> 02:10:06,030 you know, he's trying to onboard people into into his into pod 2220 02:10:06,060 --> 02:10:11,160 pod fans. And, and yeah, I feel his pain so I would say that you 2221 02:10:11,160 --> 02:10:16,080 know, top of those even above anything else for the podcast 2222 02:10:16,080 --> 02:10:20,670 Standards Project, I would say the adherence to that to having 2223 02:10:20,700 --> 02:10:25,890 a version of the TX T authentication is the most kind, 2224 02:10:25,920 --> 02:10:29,640 brotherly sisterly thing we can do for each other because it's 2225 02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:34,740 really the having those email addresses gone and I guess Apple 2226 02:10:34,740 --> 02:10:40,530 is pretty much also you know, at play here, it really complicates 2227 02:10:40,530 --> 02:10:45,990 your life yeah, without without having that that Verification 2228 02:10:45,990 --> 02:10:47,820 Mechanism. I think in 2229 02:10:47,820 --> 02:10:49,950 Dave Jones: the future I think there's a pain we're going 2230 02:10:49,950 --> 02:10:54,420 through a pain process right now but I foresee a future after 2231 02:10:54,450 --> 02:10:58,050 this transition is finished to where it will actually be much 2232 02:10:58,080 --> 02:11:02,760 easier than email is now that the future is a bit 2233 02:11:02,790 --> 02:11:06,150 Adam Curry: of course email sucks so bad with with with with 2234 02:11:06,690 --> 02:11:11,190 spam, etc. I'm completely with you. I'm just saying, saying to 2235 02:11:11,190 --> 02:11:15,030 our our ambassadors here that I would say Man, if you can drive 2236 02:11:15,030 --> 02:11:17,400 that that's going to help a lot of it helped here forward 2237 02:11:17,400 --> 02:11:20,640 moving, you know, new new stuff come online where people have to 2238 02:11:20,640 --> 02:11:23,670 verify that way. Or, you know, they could just verify with the 2239 02:11:23,670 --> 02:11:25,080 noster ID I would just say, 2240 02:11:26,010 --> 02:11:29,190 Dave Jones: well, the chat is just boosted 808. Sasson said he 2241 02:11:29,190 --> 02:11:30,690 just he said I verified my feed 2242 02:11:30,750 --> 02:11:34,200 Adam Curry: your verified, verified. Kevin and Tom, thank 2243 02:11:34,200 --> 02:11:36,600 you so much for coming on. Thank you for all that you do. As 2244 02:11:36,600 --> 02:11:39,900 always, thank you for supporting us specifically podcasting 2.0 2245 02:11:39,900 --> 02:11:43,920 so graciously as you always do with your monthlies, but also 2246 02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:50,010 with with your with your people, your team working on stuff, even 2247 02:11:50,040 --> 02:11:52,770 especially the support team who have to deal with all the crazy 2248 02:11:52,770 --> 02:11:56,340 crap we come up with and then you guys have to train your your 2249 02:11:56,340 --> 02:11:59,640 users we really appreciate it. You guys are true brothers in 2250 02:11:59,640 --> 02:12:02,640 the in the fight and thank you so much. Thank you so much, 2251 02:12:02,640 --> 02:12:07,350 guys. Thanks. Hey, Dave. Yep, I love you brother. I love you 2252 02:12:07,350 --> 02:12:12,390 too. Brent drink some beef milkshake. Hi everybody. We'll 2253 02:12:12,390 --> 02:12:15,810 be back next week another board meeting of podcasting 2.0 Thanks 2254 02:12:15,810 --> 02:12:18,270 for joining bike chat room, see everybody. 2255 02:12:33,750 --> 02:12:38,310 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast 2256 02:12:38,310 --> 02:12:46,290 index.org for more information. bombshell