podcasting 2.0 for November 27 2020, Episode Number 13 and
we've got Fire in the hole.
What does that mean?
I don't know.
The whole the whole is a fire. You know, it's like, I figured
somehow I'd want to tease that we have a fiery guest or
something like that. I don't know. Usually I come up with the
the episode titles after the show. I'd like to stretch my
brain a little bit. try and do them beforehand. And now ladies
and gentlemen, the man who beat the road Oh, riding the
lightning.
Nice.
This is this is unlucky. This is unlucky episode.
Why? Why is it
13?
Oh, no, no, it's gonna be super lucky for us. My machine's gonna
keep working. It's not going to crap out.
Mm hmm.
Which was yesterday morning, I had to do the no agenda show.
And my Surface Pro six, which I like very much has been not only
does the studio stuff, it kept going into some reboot loop but
a really ugly one where it decides to show some, like a
little text at the bottom of the screen and kind of like a
magnified fuzzy font. You know, you know,
that is the windows way.
You know, when that happens, you know, you're at low level
windows shit, right? They're like, Oh, God,
the old dos is talking to me. Anyway,
so yeah, the went the windows way is to tell you that there's
lots of things wrong, but then not actually do anything to fix
it. So right, you have to go in there yourself and manually run.
Check disk. Yes. Even though that would be super easy for
Windows to run itself. Me. Linux, Linux says, oh, add some
Roman file system. I'll run fsck. But Windows is like, hey,
there's something wrong with the file system. Good luck.
Yeah. Well, then I really appreciate it. And hopefully, it
was, I think, I think it is I think that internal drive it
wasn't it once I filled it all the way up with an audio
recording by mistake, selected the wrong, the wrong drive. And,
and you know, you know what happens when your drive runs out
of space? That's fun. It's like, machine starts you know, Windows
Start floating. I mean, that maybe that made some bad
sectors. Is that possible?
I mean, yeah, well, it's, you're in the land of the unknown. Once
you run out of space. You have no idea
why am I even asking? reminder if you're listening to us on the
Sphinx chat app, crank up those value sliders please you stingy
bitches crank it up.
He goes all the way to goes to
100. And now just say what is Bitcoin now we dip below 17,000.
So yeah, you need to you need to peg that stuff. For the value
about it. Yeah, I
bought I bought three or four bitcoins yesterday, just to make
sure we're buying the dip.
Man I've been held deep in while I set up a lightning node for
podcasting. Next, you know, I know what I want, which is on
voltage.io, which is fantastic. You know, you literally can only
set it up and then you can just get your credentials and you
have to manage everything remotely, which is the way it
should be anacharis, macaroons, exactly. So there's this and I
upgraded my own node to was it raspy Blitz one dot six dot one,
which is another harrowing experience where you where you
literally have to burn a, a, an SD card and SD card. Yeah, you
burn the SD card. You take the old one out, you put the new one
in, and then magically, everything reappears. But it
doesn't reappear right away. There's this staff install
process, which Luckily, you can monitor, they give you a little
instruction like oh, tail minus n, you know, 1000 minus F. And
here's your log file, so you can watch it that finally all work.
So that gave me Thunder hub. I'm getting to a point here. Thunder
hub is this reporting software, which has promised Eric our back
office, our partner in back office, I promised him start
running reports, you know, because it's, I mean, really in
the fees and the 1% split that we received from the podcasts on
the index note, it's may be 15 bucks or something. It's quite
low, but it's going at once, you know, once a Toshi wants to
Toshi a minute. So it's still incredible. And
Nick wolf has a stacking,
that's totally stacking. So I run the report, and I can run it
on my own node fine, but every single time and I'm just trying
to run Nov, receive payments, and it won't do it. And so I hop
on with Graham from voltage and I guess he knows the thunder hub
guys. So now we're like telephone, down the line. He
says Do you know how many transactions you have? So yeah,
I can get that number. Let me see. I said 9800, the thunder
hub guys went, Oh, you broke our software, we have to completely
retool, there's no way we can, we have to do something
different with timeouts. And under the hood, there has to be
a whole new upgrade just to handle the amount of
transactions we have.
The the amount of software that you break, you're breaking on a
weekly basis
is incredible. I'm just like a bull in a china shop, man.
You're the you're like the QA guys. wet dream. You break break
stuff, you don't mean like you broke your breaking stuff, two
levels down the chain. I know.
Well, I love it.
I didn't break it. By myself. You know, the concept means this
proves that what we're doing is truly on the cutting edge.
Because I guess no one ever expected anybody to have, you
know, almost 10,000 transactions in a month. That would be crazy.
But when you think about
it, what's gonna get really great is when we break all of
lightning all and
I'm a little concerned, I have to be honest. I'm seeing I'm
reading about some limitations here and there. So a little
worried
about that.
It'll be a dynamite dynamite ride for sure. We'll see where
it ends. But this is a podcasting 2.0 meeting of the
Board. As I said earlier for November 2017. Had a good
Thanksgiving Day.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we had to have some dinner and chilled out
it was good and extended
family or just your own family.
We went to my parents house for for a little while and ate with
mashed up in and all this stuff. So
Oh, you messed up indoors. Yeah, yeah. Well, they're probably in
the risk group, I guess.
Yeah. My dad, my dad's in the 70s. And so we're, we're trying
to be careful for everybody involved. And yeah, and you
know, cuz I had it and it's, it's clearly touched me. So I'm
just trying to Yeah, to keep everybody safe.
Yes, indeed. And you survived. So nice. I did. I'm
glad I came
out stronger than before. I could not
imagine how many forms would have to fill out. It'd be so
annoying.
I did not come out stronger than before the scrape currently
drinking tea does in the coffee.
Yeah, no, it takes a while. For recuperation is not just two
weeks, it can last a bit. It can linger.
Whatever.
Um, before we get to our guest today. Do we have any open
things we need to discuss other than maybe I would like to start
off about that. And thank you, and comic strip blogger and
drunk Plato, and anyone else who helped create the apps page,
which is starting to look really good. And we have a URL for that
new podcast? app.com. You know, spread that around. Because you
look at this page, like holy crap. There's a lot going on
with this podcasting. 2.0 It looks really nice. It's full,
full
idea. Yeah,
it's cool. It's very exciting. And you know, pretty soon we're
gonna have to add podcasts that are completely compliant. And
we'll have to have a badge. badge, we need a badge that
people can put on their on their podcast sites, podcast.
I've heard it referred to as a pill, like a pill bag or
something like that. Well, we need one of one of those things,
whatever
it does, it has to link back to us. Do you remember the top five
of the internet way back when it was like you're in the top five
of the internet and then people would get you know, get these
was like top 100 or something. But you could get it you can get
a top 10 or top five. And this is back. Just as the web is
coming out. We're still using mosaic browsers browsers, no
Netscape. And, and everyone was so you know, it was kind of
like, oh, we're officially one of the top 100 websites Reebok
my client, I'm like, Okay, I guess like we want it on our
own. We want it on our site, we want to display that it was just
some dude who just set up some some website. And he gave
everyone this code and everyone was in the top hundred,
essentially. And it all, you know, loop back to his, his his
website,
it's the top 40 under 40. Yeah, whatever that. whatever that
thing is called is like, yeah, pay me to be in this book,
one of the top 40 Well, then I'll get to that in a second.
Okay. What else? We you've been close. Here's what I think
you've been doing. I know you've been coding stuff. I know you've
been re writing things and probably making things more
efficient. That's under the hood. And then on the surface,
you've probably done some more cleaning up of namespace stuff
if I'm guessing, right?
Yeah, I'm continuing to bounce between between three like three
different repos, essentially. So we're at the main podcast index
stuff, just adding feed, you know, adding features and Keep
doing some aggregator stuff. And then some some new feature
stuff, I keep kind of ping pong back and forth between that
because the aggregator needs, it needs constant care, some kind
of pull, you know, doing that stuff all the time, that's
always sort of background radiation, and then added some
features, with the new tags and such. And then I'll bounce over
to the namespace repo and try to clean that up. And also, I
actually had a meeting and we talked about this. A little bit
later, I had a meeting, phone meeting with the guys from pod
chaser, about about the person tag, and how to try to get some
movement momentum on that nicely. Yeah. And then you're
gonna
be you're gonna be interviewed for this, I think. No, no, no, I
thought you'd want to do an interview soon.
Oh, no. Well, that's, that's gonna be on Frederick Norman's
show. He's the guy that made the podcast, the captors app for
Mac. Ah, so that's something different. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
He's gonna have, we're gonna have a chit chat. Mm hmm. But
then also just working on the, on the website on the apps page
and stuff. I've been doing that a little bit. So I'm just kind
of bouncing around all over. It's a little. It's a little
schizophrenia. At times. I feel like I need to take that
medicine where we're at night where you hear the voices or
whatever.
I don't think you really want to be taken that man No, I don't
want to
complete things. But it's just bouncing. A lot of bounce. And I
never feel like I'm actually getting very far on any one
thing. But then I look back and I made some progress.
Yeah, I've been I've been successfully publishing with the
new tags haven't gotten a lot of uptake on the community
chapters. I've only to be fair, I only asked for it once, like a
week ago on no agenda. And I did have some people drop by and I
guess they took the effort to get the hyper catcher app and
then set a couple of a couple of chapter markers. But nothing so
far on the one from from yesterday. So happy to see I
that's why I need the badge. Man. I needed to say podcasting
2.0 compliant, sort of sort of
a badge. You don't know.
Yes. No badge like
you know what to do. That's just that's just a that's just a
crappy 1.0 podcast, so I can't do anything with it.
Now you also did some work on on a really cool search.
Yeah, yeah. The really cool I did. I made what I thought was a
really cool search. And then James Cridland told me all about
the ways that it's not
the Australian peat in your cornflakes?
No, nice. He was, he had a good point, which so I made a person
search. People search or whatever you want to call it.
Yeah. And, you know, but he made a good point. He said, Well, you
know, until we get the person tag finalized and get get a lot
of person tags out there. You know, this might work. But once
you this also may delay the adoption of the tags, you know,
so I think he's right. And it gives people a reason, if you're
doing these searches already, it gives people reason to, to not
feel like they have to do it. Well, that works. But no, but
he's right. So I think I mean, I'm gonna leave it there for
now. And it'll, you know, it worked. But then once the person
tag in, like, officially launches, I'm sorry, I'm
still raising my hand hoping I can turn that from person to
credits, but I don't think I'm gonna get anywhere.
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we can ask,
or is that a separate? Is that a separate tag?
A lot of hope not.
It's this one's been hard enough. I don't Oh, it's not a
separate tag.
I was talking to Roy from breeze, the breeze wallet. And
he wants to know if there was an end point, which I I'm pretty
sure there isn't. But if one can be created, that outputs feeds
that have or Yeah, returns IDs, I guess podcasts? Are these
feeds that have the value block.
Like the only the
only the only the feeds that have the value block?
Oh, yeah, that's easy. That's that's 15 minutes of which,
which then led me to think, wouldn't that perhaps be a way
to showcase the namespace on the apps page, if we had we could
surface podcasts, maybe even next to each piece of
functionality. You know what I'm what I'm getting at what I'm
getting at, I'd love to see some other podcasts who do chapters
who do transcripts who have clips, just you know, just to
fool around and see what it's like and maybe get some ideas.
The same
thing, essentially the same thing as the apps page, but just
for fades. Bingo. That's it. Hear the fades that the support
locked transcript. You know,
we'll call it we'll call it the podcasting. 2.0 certified page
certified certified. Yes.
Okay, a bag.
Maybe you're certified and you can get your badge right there.
Yes.
I like it.
Maybe some code so anybody can copy the badge. Print your own
certificate and stick it on your wall. It's almost like Archer
Daniels Midland prize. No, wait, what does that what does the guy
always do the cars?
cars? Yeah,
they always give the
Oh yeah, the JD Power JD Power award.
Which is like the biggest. Like you can buy that? I think.
Yes. I think a JD Power award at top secret. You can buy ours
too. If you want. If you want to get podcasting 2.0 certified,
but not actually do anything. There you go take your money.
We'll take your money. We'll take your SATs. Exactly.
Yeah. Well, someone who I think is pretty much completely
podcasting. 2.0 certified Austin Redis. resident and I'm pretty
sure he calls himself the CEO of fireside Mr. five by five Dan
Benjamin.
Hey, guys, thanks so much for me on.
Hey, Dan, how you doing
man? doing really good. You know, it's a little rainy here
in Austin, but I can't complain about it. I'm actually coming to
you live and direct from my garage instead of my little
studio.
Sounds fantastic.
Well, that's all that's all you That's all? Yeah. Well, you're
processing. It's the amazing, you know, app posts a few doing
post to make me sound better.
I don't do crap in posts. There's no posts, ever.
I refuse. Dan, we call this the board meeting. Because the only
the only time we talk, we talk well, thank
thank you for allowing me to sit and I appreciate that.
Well, I'm wondering what you will I mean, do you? Do you call
it are you like the, like the corporate lawyer or? My dad says
that a consultant is somebody did you hand your watch to so
they can tell you what time it is?
I would say Dan is an assessor at the at the board meeting, you
know, we like sesor. Yes, you assess you assess what's going
on that day,
I did, I did want to chime in at about about the the person tag
or credits tag as you as you prefer. The one hesitation I've
heard from people about it is that, although it's optional,
you include an AI and you should include the email, see the
email, part of that tag. And there are a lot of people who
had said, Well, I don't want my email address showing up in
there because it's it's in a public feed, which of course is
breakable, which means your email address is now exposed in
a horrible way. But whose isn't? But I think that's the one thing
about it. So when I, when I implemented the tag, I
implemented it and just left the email field blank. But that
seems counterproductive. Like it should be in their eyes. So
maybe, you know, you have to have an
interesting so. So I hadn't even thought about the email part of
it. And as far as I know, it's only been kind of discussed as a
think just as a way to search more accurately.
Well, it's a much better way to search via email address, then
then via a name. You know, but so i i think it needs to be
there. But I don't know if that means we encourage people to use
an alternate email or well
see, this is this is Dave, pay attention because here comes the
short, surefire way to identify someone is put their name and
their node ID their public key, that's what you need. And then
you can call it a credit. You know, I don't care call it
people as long as that's the identifier everybody has is
identified by a node.
That is the person the person tag. Is that that doesn't have
an email listed in it though.
Well, Dan says it on your, on your GitHub page implemented in
Kershaw that
it has it has a it has a URL and it has an email in there if I if
I'm remembering correctly, but you
don't say that may have them it will see your but you're in
you're in the realm now. Dan of of unfine alized tags here.
Yeah,
I know you're right on the edge.
code base.
Yeah, that's always a it's it's dangerous to use my finalized
code. So your way out.
Thanks for the warning now. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm trying to
keep up with you guys. I def I implemented everything in 1.0.
And I've implemented some of this stuff in the or the phase,
the first phase and the second phase. I'm trying to keep up
with what y'all are doing but
yeah, sorry for the sorry for the for the breakneck speed on
that kind of stuff. But
no, I love it. I get it and keeps me on my toes a little bit
and like the chapters with the separate Separate JSON file that
was fun. I like that you're using all these good standards
out there, it makes me happy, and it's easy to implement. So
far the stuff that you've done has been like really cool and
really, really good to implement. So, you know,
when when you're deciding what to implement on that kind of
thing. I feel like, you know, it's really, here's the way I
see the landscape. And you tell me, what you think about this is
that there's, you know, you have these mega large hosting
companies, who they're just, you know, a lot of that they're on
autopilot most of the time. And then, you know, you have
smaller, hungry, hosting companies like fireside that are
trying to, you know, the all the all of these sorts of things
that can innovate and move podcasting forward. I mean, for
for a company, the size of fireside, it seems like, that's
just a, you know, a way to to innovate and differentiate,
differentiate yourself and help your customers. Whereas somebody
like me, you know, like a Lipson, or something like that
this or an anchor this humongous, they probably don't
feel the same. You need to innovate at a rate, like a
fireside does that. Is that fair to say?
I mean, the part about firesides definitely true. You know, the
thing for me, is, we're very much trying all the time. You
know, the important thing, just to add to what you said is it
for us anyway, it's not always to be first in coming out with
something, although that's kind of cool. Like being able to say
we're the first implement something that's cool. But so
many of the tags that you guys are creating, and so much of
what I love about what you guys have built is that it's focused
on the community. It's focused on the podcast and community.
And that's what I really care about. Because like, you know, I
started podcasting in 2006. And I went full time in 2008. And so
like, this is community I really, truly care about. And so
anything that I do in fireside, it's always, my first thought
is, how is this moving things forward in a positive way? How
are we doing something and or whatever, when we implement a
feature? I want it to be because that feature makes sense for
podcasting. And that's obviously what you guys are doing. And so,
yeah, I think it's easy for you know, you mentioned libsyn, for
them to kind of say what, like, we're we're chugging along and
we get people from switching from libsyn, or anchor all the
time all the time.
I'm hearing a lot about this, Dan, if you don't mind me
asking, yeah,
of course, is
this a current trend? Or is it just because we happen to be in
kind of in the middle of things that we see it more, because it
just feels like I'm hearing more people say, Oh, I'm just gonna,
you know, switch? Seems like people are pretty cavalier about
that.
Yeah, I agree with you. You're right. And I think I think the
driving factor for it is that once people start to realize
that there are other things out there, they're, they're ready to
explore, they're ready to try things out. And they're ready to
experiment. And I think, you know, the company like libsyn,
they don't have to do anything. But what they're doing, they
don't have to redesign their interface to look cool. They've
got enough customers who are just there, they have their
routine, they have their system, they check in, they upload,
they're out. And my goal was always to try and provide more
to make it easier for people to podcasts. Like I'm trying to
build a tool that you want to use that is easy to use, that
gets out of your way, but that there are tons and tons of
features so that if you're a pro, you can come in and you're
like, Oh, cool. There's chapters right here, I don't need a
separate app to embed chapters, or there's this recording notes
page so that while I'm recording, I can type little
notes and hit Enter. And it remembers the time codes for me
like, all of this stuff is fun and cool that I figured out the
way you figured stuff out is like I've been doing this for so
long that I've run into these stupid things that irritate me.
And I'm like, I'm just gonna build a feature. So I don't have
to keep doing it. But like Lipson doesn't need to do that.
Because people are just just dropping their files off there.
So for us, we're very much hungry. And I very much want to
win something new, like what you guys have come out with is here.
I yeah, I really want to support that I really want to integrate
it because I want to use it to you know, like, I want it so
that's kind of my motivation.
Dan to go ahead, Dave.
Did fireside I was gonna ask the fireside develop out of five by
five. Is that how that was?
I was gonna ask a very similar question.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I had I had built when when I
first was starting five by five, which was in 2008. I, I had
been, you know, I had decided I wanted to try podcasting full
time. And I was just as I was coming up with new shows to do,
I it seemed like there was like a threshold for me that's like I
could get X number of downloads and listeners for a specific
show. But then I was kind of hitting like a, like a glass
ceiling of like, I can't seem to cross much past beyond this
level. So I'll just do another show, I'll get it up to that
level. And that's how I make enough money to pay my bills.
Yeah, so I had a handful of shows. And I found that every
time I was doing a show, I had to go and make a new website for
it. And I was updating a lot of them by hand. And at this time,
again, 2008, nine, there weren't like there wasn't software out
there. I think libsyn existed, but I didn't like it. I mean,
I'm sorry, if the libsyn guys are listening, nothing against
them. But like, the interface sucked. And I'm a usability
person, I spent a lot of time doing design and development and
software development like you David's like, I care about the
experience, I want to enjoy the software that I'm using life's
too short for crappy software. So I, I thought, you know,
reluctantly, I'll build my own system that will let me anytime
I want to make a new podcast or show it'll just be here. And I
mean, I've been building software like publishing tools
forever. So of course, it made sense that I could just build
it. So I built it. And it ran five by five for a long time.
And over the years of doing it, we had lots of different people
on come and go on five by five and different hosts and
different people. And they'd say, you know, I'd really like
it if you had this feature that could work like this, and then
say, okay, and someone else would say, oh,
what if what
if you could work like this? What if you had this and sell
right, and I build it. And so at the end of all of that long
story short, I had a lot of really great input from really
smart podcasters. And my own experiences to draw from it's a
fireside was a total ground up rewrite, it wasn't like I took
what I built for five by five and made it into something I
thought people would want to pay for. I completely started from
scratch. But a lot of most everything. In fact, everything
that I learned from five by five and building it went into
fireside and I'm in the process now of finally moving everything
from five by fives ancient crappy CMS. Now, by today's
standards, to the modern fireside,
just real similar to the way that the bus broke, guys told us
that they they kind of evolved, they started out with CRM, like
making CRM software that had nothing to do with writing with
even podcasting, but they just sort of grew their software in
this direction over time. And the finally they're like, hey,
we've actually got a really good base here, it's
really quite amazing how, how, for such a mature industry,
there's really only a handful of people that have created really
good tools for the authoring. And I know a lot of focus went
into recording, editing, processing. And that's where I
think a lot of people really, really would just heads down.
And then because of this chicken in the egg, decade of standstill
of development, nothing here there was really no incentive, I
guess, for anyone to jump into the new market. And for me, when
we started working on these tags, and I said it, I'll just
code it myself and like, looked at the notepad. And he went, No,
I won't. I can't do all these escape characters. And it's it's
a lot more than it used to be back in the day. And I just went
looking for a simple tool that would just create an RSS feed
just a file. It's not out there. I mean, yeah, there's a few but
but nothing you can extend and create new tags with. So it's
really nice to see this. This really, as you said, rapid
development. What I haven't looked at the fireside
interface, what what do you have for chapter creation? Because
my, my big ask, I think is and we have one from hyper capture,
is the ability for people to, you know, to create community
based tags. Which it would be great if it works amongst all
different apps, and everyone somehow pings the same thing.
But I was just wondering what your what the current process
is, is just very simple timeline, enter, title, URL,
image URL.
Yeah, very, very basic. I don't even have the image URL part
because I built it just kind of for myself, I wasn't doing a lot
with chapters, and people never really asked like, I'd really,
really try to pay attention to the fireside customer base,
because those, they're just we have the best, I'm so lucky. We
just have the best customers, the best people, and they come
up with so many ideas. And so many of the features that I've
implemented have come from people just like in with five by
five, just podcasters who are using it saying I wish it was
like this, I wish I could do this chapters was not a request.
There are not I am shocked still by how few people even use
chapters. So the implementation that we've done is very, very
basic. It's just you can enter in a chapter you can enter the
time code, you can enter in a title. And I have had I said
I'll do images when people ask for them and no one is asked.
Right and and, you know, we don't make a big stink about
having chapters. It's on the you know, on the podcasts episodes
Edit page, there's a tab that says chapters. So, you know we
can't be more prominent really than that. Rather than having
like a big flashing arrow pointing at it, but not a lot of
people use it, I'm shocked at how few people use chapters or
care about chapters. And I wanted to ask you guys like, is
this something that's like big because your implementation of
chapters and the way that, so for people who don't sit there
and read the RSS feeds that are compliant with what you guys
have built, there's a little link in there that says
chapters. And if you follow that link, it's a JSON, JSON feed
essentially, for that episodes, chapters perfect implementation
best way to do it. are a lot of people using it, is this
something you guys think is important? Or did this come from
the community
chat chapters has been a big thing, I think amongst a small
group, of course, a lot of people do spend time and put
chapters into their mp3 file, which is kind of universally
recognized by some of the more some of the bigger apps, right,
what got me excited are two things. One is community
chapter. So other people tagging places in in the show, so that,
you know, so it's Yes, exactly what it is a community, and
then, you know, other people can go and find those chapters. But
what really got me excited was the was the image URL, because
for me, and it works best right now, in pod friend, the web app.
You know, you're, you're literally looking at the screen,
and we're talking about album art, and then it just pops up at
that very moment, you see the album mark that we're talking
about. So to have that and to say, Okay, here's a chart, or
here's a graph, or here's a picture, and then to be able to
say just go ahead and take a look at your at your app screen.
That is super, super cool to me. And there's only two apps that
do it right now, which is hyper capture and, and pod friend,
and I have guest addict I think that's I
guess added does it as well.
I believe so. Yeah. I thought they
do they have a an image that rotates.
I know he implemented chapters.
Now he has chapters and he has the image but he I think he just
displays it as a list. Okay, at the bottom, yeah, no, it's this
this rotating kind of slideshow thing. That got me pretty
excited. And it really is only two implementations. And one
that's, you know, the web version, it looks sexy. I really
like it.
Yeah, the, the chapters that for? Well, I'm looking here in
the database. And there's there are roughly 2100 episodes in in
our index database that have a chapter file associated with
them. And a lot of there's quite a few far sides in there. I'm
looking at these URLs and there's a there's quite a few
fireside podcasts that are using them. But they it seems like
from what I've seen, there's dislike divide or not divide
maybe as a spectrum there's the spectrum where people you know
you either love chapters or you don't care anything about them
and everybody is either on one side or the other there's like
is very few people floating in the middle right it's like some
people are just diehard chapter people and those are the people
that have they were already doing chapters with like in with
within the mp3 this is self
they and I mean for the record if you put your own chapters in
with other software like fireside, you can import those.
So you can click a little import button or you can just not do
anything and fireside won't touch them. And they still ship
out with the chapters the same way that you did them. Oh, so
you put your mp3 in it can suck them out is Oh yeah, it'll it'll
it'll import them if you want. Or you can just be or you just
do nothing and they just ship out with your mp3 on touched.
Something about the chapter spec is is okay, well, you know why?
Why would you do a separate chapter spec it versus Okay,
that's already available in the mp3 itself. And the one of the
reasons that we felt it was necessary is because for exactly
the same thing that you're talking about you you as a
holster can implement. It can implement chapters, without
having to do the heavy like a bunch of heavy audio. You know,
you don't have to re encode or parse the file and stick them in
the frame headers and all this kind of stuff. I mean, it's just
so much easier to keep everything in a separate JSON
file. It's just a supplemental checks.
It's perfect. It's the way it should be.
You know what I would love? I just got it before I forget,
just got to get it out. Because I know Martin's listening. We've
developed pod friend. I'd loved a chapter pod friend that I
could then share as a widget one of your famous little widgets
like the Twitter widget, and when you play that piece, if
there's a chapter that image shows and the link shows. I
don't know why I want it but just want to say I wanted it
that would be so fucking cool. Like you do You could do just
like little presentations, you know, it's like a little. Oh,
it's kind of cool. There's so I don't know, I just feels to me
like, there's a market for that.
Oh, there is Adam. You're right. And but the thing is just
listening to what you were saying how you like using
chapters for popping up the image of the thing that you're
talking about. There. I don't think people even realize the
chapters can do that. A majority of podcasters out there, think
that it's just a way to like, skip an ad or jump to the second
half of the interview or something. They don't even
realize that it could be like a, it could make the whole podcast
experience more interactive. But when you're talking Wait, when
you're talking about community chapters, you mean somebody's
listening to it? And they could add, they could say, oh, right
here, yeah, I want to put a essentially a marker down
saying, This is the funny thing that this person said
exactly, exactly. And, and so hyper capture allows you to do
that. But it's only one app, and it's on iOS. So before, before
we get to any, you have to have a back end running. The app has
to have some kind of back end to store to store stores to have
those be submitted up. And then and then when I'm playing the
mp3, it knows that I'm playing that mp3 and shows them in my
player, right? Yeah. And how do you stop abuse of that? Because
eventually you get people who are gonna
approval process. So hyper capture will just show you that
show you the submitted chapters, and then you can approve or
change or whatever you want before it goes right.
Right, right, right.
Oh, yeah, cuz of course, you know, I'm looking like, all
right, who's gonna have a link to one of those Safari pages
that hijacks your iPhone browser? We have to restart and
you have to empty your history because your your Safari won't
start anymore.
six chapters of porn links? No. Yeah. That was your, uh, your,
your rebeka. Dan.
Yeah, primarily, I mean, firesides, all Ruby on Rails.
With some other. There's some other tech in the background
there. But primarily, that's what I've been using, just
because I got into Ruby on Rails, right when it was brand
new. Gosh, I don't know, whatever. More than 10 years
ago, whenever it first came out. And I actually built I think one
of the first if not the first, like Ruby on Rails powered CMS
is for a for an internet magazine. And it was a really
fun community at the time. And, and it was it was really
different. It was really fun. And Ruby's a fun language to to
code in. What are you guys developing? And I should know
the answer that
Oh, no, it's it's all over the map. It's PHP, JavaScript. Most
mostly, mostly PHP for the for the back end of the API, in
aggregate with the aggregators all in node j. s,
is the Yeah, I mean, the JavaScript is like, I don't, I
don't even think to mention it. Because it's sort of a given.
It's like, like, you wouldn't say, Well, I use a computer to
write code like he or she did it. I feel like that's
JavaScript has just become ubiquitous. I don't know how
it's possible to build an application of any kind for the
web without it, but in the no jazz stuff is really great. And
I think node I mean, I don't want to go down this rabbit
hole, but I think node is is, you know, there are people who
say, Oh, don't build it, node, build it and go build it in rust
or whatever. But I still seem way more node than any of the
others.
I'm not, I don't like JavaScript is john wonder. Yeah, no, that's
crazy. JavaScript is the language that that everybody
uses, and depends on but everybody also hates with a
passion.
Everyone needs any anyone who understands good code hates
hates it.
Yeah. In all the in all the promises and all that kind of
stuff. That's great. But it's still just it's still a dumpster
fire. I mean, yeah, it really is, you
know, I mean, but I mean, I write JavaScript code. Half the
time. I mean, I hate I hate doing it. And like yesterday, my
son he was using, you know, he has steam to play as games. And
there's this, there's this thing, where I guess if you, I
don't understand the details, but somehow you get like a game
in your wish list that doesn't show up in your wish list
anymore, but it's still there, so you get the wrong count. So
like, it'll show you have 19 games in your wish list when you
really only put 16 in there. So the only way to clear it out, we
search for it. And it's some dude wrote JavaScript that you
have to go in into a web browser, log into steam in a web
browser, paste the JavaScript in your web browsers console, and
it will find the list of ones. And he's like, is it safe for me
to run this? And so last night, I'm sitting there reading
someone else's JavaScript code, but like, I didn't even realize
I note like, I don't I don't think about JavaScript. I don't
even think that I know it. I don't even consider it a thing.
It's just like of course I don't think anybody else do it. I
don't think anybody does know it. I don't think he actually
does know. The only guy that knows JavaScript actually knows
it. Isn't that dude the wrote the book like JavaScript, the
good parts, right? Whatever is called the only guy that really
knows it. Yeah, everybody, everybody else is just it's
just, it's just bullshit. Yep,
no 100 Sent.
The I was what I was wondering what? You know, in the tradition
of interviewing, hosting companies we typically in
our long tradition of interval hosting,
we we have to I'm trying to figure out what Bitcoin related
shenanigans that we can ask Dan about. It's holy.
Yeah. Now we got to tell you something you'll never
understand and then kick out.
Good interview.
Have you have you played with any of the devalue block stuff?
Danny? We
looked at swings chat on you that stuff. Yeah, only because
of you guys only because what you've been talking about and
this show and it was completely off my radar. We haven't
implemented any of it yet. But it's definitely on my radar now,
because of you guys. And, you know, it's the kind of thing
that like, it's so not mean. I mean, like, it's, you guys think
about it so much that I feel like to you, it's like, well, of
course, this is what is important. And but then there's
like this huge pocket of people that don't know anything about
any of this stuff. Oh, yeah. Well, no, that's and they don't
want to be educated and they don't want to learn about it.
They're like, Nope, that's not I want to do anything. It's like
the old way, you know? Well,
the good news is, once we get a couple of shows really up and
running, and talking about it, and there's apps to get, I mean,
the main, the main drawback to Sphinx is fantastic. Because
it's two way interactive, they got a lot of stuff that goes way
above and beyond any podcast app, certainly community
features, which is truly, truly dynamite. It doesn't scale in a
quick manner, the way we kind of need to launch the whole idea,
where you just have a podcast app or a couple of apps that
anybody can use anybody, as long as you can figure out how to in
fact, I think what Brees will do is, you know, they they they tie
in a Fiat payment processor. And, and you can load it right
up with, with with dollars, and then boom, you're you've got
lightning Bitcoin, and you're off to the races. And of course,
the app will work even if you don't have that. And that'll
scale. So then podcasters can say, hey, check it out. And the
way I've always seen these things roll out, and then you
have hundreds or thousands of people who are checking it out,
and they listen to other podcasts. And if they like it,
they'll tell the other podcast or they listen to Hey, you
should implement this. And then the podcast just has to go
figure out where the how to do it what it is it kind of markets
itself. And I have noticed that when there's money involved
people do pay a little more attention.
Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely. So and speaking of
speaking of money, I mean, that the the things that I'm we're
always hearing about tons and tons of people asking us this
all the time. They want dynamic ad insertion. That's the
biggest, that's the number one request that I get these days,
because maybe it's because we've added all the other features
that people are asking for except that one. And and then
the other thing that's talked about a lot is stats and
accurate stats. And yeah, sure, you know, in order to get the
kinds of stats that people want, like the kind and they always
compare it to YouTube, and I have a lot of conversations with
people who are coming from YouTube into podcasting. And the
thing that I hear over and over again, YouTube gives you really
great stats, but not just stats, it shows you what your viewers
are actually doing. Right. And I'm sure you guys have heard
this too. But it gets the, you know, the fact that like, let's
say you have an intro segment on your YouTube video that you do
every time you make a video, and people you can see if people are
watching, you're skipping over it exactly, well, here's,
here's the great benefit of the the devalue block and the
lightning node payments, is that what that creates is a
transaction record that both the podcaster of course has over the
the person who's paying has but the podcaster gets a permanent
micro payment, which you can track beautifully over time. So
you can and actual listening behavior because the minutes
right now if if they don't have anything in their wallet, you're
not going to get any payments, so you can't track it. But
already the Sphinx app, and now they have a little extra thing,
which is also kind of a YouTube thing or Instagram Live is you
could hit the boost button. So if you're listening, and you're
like, Oh, this is funny, he hit the boost button, it sends you
know, and it's configurable. I think the default is 10 SATs,
but most people have at higher and boom you send 100 SATs to
the show or to whatever split is in that value block. Then you
can go back and as the podcaster you can look at the at the
timeline, and you can see where the boosts were. So now all of a
sudden you have some real granular data. Oh people really
like this because they We're boosting it. And that and that,
by the way, will carry over into into any app that that
implements this, they can do something very similar. So you
have very similar to the Apple podcast Connect, you have
listening statistics. That's wonderful. I
mean, and the more the more we can get that.
So you can even add, you can even say, hey, not only do you
get micro payments, but you also get some statistics. That's all
you need is a sample, right? You need a sample of people who are
going to listen, and then you have kind of an idea. You can
overlay that with your Apple Listen, stats and and
extrapolate some good data.
But we don't even have an accurate I mean, I know the IB
has their spec, which I don't, I don't. I mean, it's good. And
it's good that we have a spec, but there are some flaws with
it. I came out with a wave. In my mind, I haven't come in No,
I've not told anyone about it. It's just been sitting in my
mind of a way that we could actually get just regular stats,
I'm not even talking about listener behavior, but just
accurate downloads.
Really Come on, that's not possible. Dan, no one's no one's
able to do accurate downloads get
out of town, in order to do it, we would need participation from
basically every podcast app, and we'll never get that we'll never
get it and you know, but there are, there are ways to do it, we
would just need everyone to get on board with it. And that would
probably be about as easy as getting all the cell phone
carriers to agree on a standard, you know, across international
borders.
So,
you know, the answer is probably never, but that it's just super
frustrating. Because for a podcaster. You know, they it's
not it's not like they're saying, gosh, we really wish we
knew if people were skipping through this part of the show,
you know, maybe sort of they can kind of get that the way you're
describing. They don't even know if their episode has ever been
played when it's been downloaded. Or how many people
actually really even downloaded the thing. It's and it's super
frustrating. The funny thing is, it's always the people that we
when we get asked questions about it, it's always the people
with really, really small shows, relatively speaking, the people
who have hundreds of thousands of downloads, they don't really
care. They don't even care at that point. But it's the people
who are like, last week, I got 51 downloads this week, I got
48.
And that's what I like, so much about the about the streaming
value is right, even though it's so I'm just looking at the index
node, and in the month of November, and this is very,
very, very small group. Do you think Dave 2030 people maybe are
listening?
Yeah, it's I think it's more than we think it is. But it's it
maybe Max 50?
Yeah. So and by the way, that those 50 people and they're
boosting and everything they've done have resulted in $15 to the
index, I'm looking at that and going shit, that's 1% of
whatever else is, is flowing. You know, that's, that's some
real money that's flowing around amongst a small group of
micropayments. Right. But the money doesn't even matter. Just
Just like Click, click every minute, there's something coming
in. And it's like, oh, my God, someone's listening right now
they're listening right now. And then you see, like a, you see,
like a three Satoshi come through again, the index is 1%.
Like, someone boosted in. So you get a pretty, pretty good idea.
Now, the reporting I have, I can't, I have no idea what
anyone's playing but as a podcaster. And that's what I
like about the splits is that everybody involved gets the same
reporting. So whether you are, or at least has the same data,
whether you're just a or just whether you get 5%, of a
particular episode, because you did the artwork, it's still, you
know, you get to see exactly where people were listening as
well, or where they were, they'd like something more or less. And
in fact, when you're talking about the artwork, you can
probably see if people like that artwork, if they're boosting, I
mean, this it's endless. It's very, so simple to implement. I
mean, more or less,
but now, Dan, how, how is your How would you characterize your
customer base? Would you say that? Like, how much of a
percentage of them really are really in it for monetization
purposes? And how much are really just kind of don't care.
They're just into it for just the fun in the experience of
podcasting?
That's a wonderful question. I don't know if I have a
definitive answer on that because you know, there are so
many different ways to monetize you can you we have a little
feature that makes it easy for you to enter in like sponsors
and links for sponsors, but it doesn't have any kind of there's
no like payment system. If you're a sponsor, you don't log
in and and like have a way to use a credit card to buy a
sponsorship in there. We have left that up to the individuals
to do it, but What we are rolling out is integration with
Patreon. And integration with we've actually had integration
with Patreon for a while Was that fun
leads behind an extra level.
Yeah, and it's actually the way that and we're adding in member
full support to but the way that this works is like for example,
I have a show that I do called roadwork, I do it with john
rodrick out of Seattle. And we also do a bonus show every week.
And we make a version of the episode with no sponsors in it
available to so depending on your Patreon tier, right, you
either get well everyone who supports us gets the bonus show.
And then different tiers depending on what tier you are,
you might get the sponsor this version of the show. So I'll use
this I'll use this show as an example. What I have to do my
workflow for this is okay, take that take the show clean, clean
it up, make it sound good, and then publish it without the
sponsors then publish another version of that same episode
with the sponsors then take the after show and publish that
version. And when I say publish, what that means is I take the
regular sponsored version and push it up to the five by five
CMS then I have to go log into Patreon and I have to upload the
content for the bonus show and I've got to upload the content
for the other show and I've got a
coin lightning is easier. Well I believe
but but so many people are already on Patreon and we
already have sure all the people on Patreon so what the way we
implemented it in a fireside is you would just upload it to
fireside you would upload the episode to fireside and then you
would select who in the Patreon whether all everyone gets it or
you would select the one tier and above that get that is
allowed to get it. And then each person gets their own private
feed from fireside and only they have access to No, it's not
guessable, and you have the ability as a podcaster to expire
feeds or regenerate them or whatever size detect if you
detect some abuse. But the problem again with having those
things exist on Patreon. I don't know how many people are
downloading the Patreon Patreon has zero stats, I don't know if
they're fast or slow downloads, they people don't even know
where to go on Patreon to find the feed that they're supposed
to use this subscribe to. So fireside takes all of this away
and makes it all easy and great with with numbers and stuff like
that. But the problem is, we don't have any kind of like
official partnership with Patreon. And if Patreon decided
today to turn off their API, which they might do, we're
screwed, our customers are using it also get screwed. And they
just announced a partnership with another podcast company
who's doing the same thing, which I suspected and talked
about on a couple shows, because they basically came out with an
announcement back in January saying Yeah, our API is fine.
And we're not going to be updating it anymore. And also,
we're not really going to support it anymore. Which here's
here's our new partnership
over here. Yeah,
exactly. So we implemented it anyway. But the more ways that I
can give customers or podcasters to get get financial support
back to your original question, the more I want to do that,
because I really think that what you guys are on to that's really
the future of podcasting is people saying, I like this, I
want to support it. It's not listening to ads, there will
always be like big shows with big ads. I think that's that's
solidified forever. But I really, if it's me, I love
supporting people and knowing that like they're getting,
you've talked about this so much, Adam, I feel like I can't
add anything to it. But you know, you're supporting the
person directly. And that feels good. Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, the, that's the model. And
over the last few weeks, since I've been using the Sphinx app,
but of course, the the first people that jumped on board,
were all the Bitcoin podcast, guys, right? So they, they go,
they already knew I already understood all this stuff. So
they all jumped in there. So it's mostly that and there's no
agenda in there and podcasting 2.0 so I have been using that to
listen to any of the any of the feeds, I was using overcast. So
any of the feeds that now are lightning enabled, we have
pulled it, remove them from overcast and I'm just listening
to most things I can tell you. One of the things
psychologically is I seriously feel guilty for not paying for a
podcast. I was thinking about that a couple of days ago
because I couldn't. There was a problem with the Sphinx app and
it in it and I ended up having to reinstall it in order to get
it to work. But in the meantime, I wanted to listen to Tales from
the Crypt so I was trying to flip back over to overcast and
it just made like
so bad. Like I felt bad. Yes,
I had like a physical injury feeling in me that I was doing
something wrong by not listening in a way that was going to pay
stay there
powerful Mojo, man.
I like that. It was like, You know what, that's this is a very
interesting concept because this is what's actually, how am I
gonna say this? That's a good thing. Because, you know, we've
talked, we've talked a lot about debt free, the concept of free
needs to die, because there's nothing I want to say this about
fireside as I was looking through, looking on the page I
like is just, here's what you get you pay. This is how much
it's gonna cost you per month. In, there's no free. There's no
free tier where you can have ads and we're gonna try to monetize
you in some right away. It's just straight up price. I
mean, I, I don't like doing that. I don't like that. So why
would I build that into my service? You know, if I don't
like be, and you know that we debated a long time. And I had a
lot of people saying, Oh, you've got to have a free tier, you've
got to have a free tier. And I really have been resistant to
that the way that we're trying to get around that now is we're
and this is hope, Garrett, my developer that works with me
who's been working on this feature, won't get pissed off if
I talk about it, but he's been working really hard on unlike,
basically trials that you don't need a credit card for. So you
can basically just, you know, make a username and password and
you get into you're able to use all the features of fireside
short of like, basically taking the show live everything short
of that you'll be able to use it experiment with it. Because for
whatever reason, even though we've got like a 14 day free
trial, you still got to put a credit card in Yeah. And and
there's a lot you would be shocked at how many p i am
shocked at how many people get to that point and are like,
nope, screw it, I'm out doing it not give I'm not giving them my
credit card. Like we're gonna do something. First of all, like
stripe handles it anyway. But like, what are we like, you
really are afraid that we're just gonna start charging you if
you you know, like, if you cancel in the 14 days. Do you
know how many people over the lifespan? I guess we started in
two 620 16 the lifespan of fireside how many people have
gone like past their trial and had to write in and say, Oh, I
went past my trial and we refund them. Like a dozen, like so few
people are pretty good about it. I don't know why that's such a
hang up for people. But fine. If we can make it easier, then, you
know, we'll let people log in. And
I will say that when I I wanted to try out buzzsprout and I
believe they do have exactly that where you can set it all up
without a credit card. And but you can't publish. And I and it
took me past the hump like Oh shit, I'll sign up for this. Of
course they immediately refunded my money and gave me a free
account. This is silly. But I kind of like that idea. This you
find that works. You get a percentage of people who try it
out and then convert is that better for you? Mostly? Yeah, I
mean, most of it, most of the people who do try it out, do
wind up you know, using it becoming a customer which is
great. But you know, it's it's like any kind of barrier that I
can help remove for people to get to get in not just into
fireside but into podcasting in general. Because, gosh, compare
where we are now in in 20 with where we were five years ago
like it is a completely different universe. And it's so
easy to get started. Now you can buy like this microphone that
I'm using my little home microphone it's you know, what
is it 100 bucks or something like that's that's not a huge
investment in how much Didn't you know did the guy who likes
to go fly fishing, invest in his fly fishing hobby, hundreds, if
not thousands of dollars to get all the right equipment and the
gear and learning how to cast the line and learning it. You
know, like that's an expensive hobby that I just picked. But
even a bowling ball of people even go bowling anymore. a
bowling ball cost more than that. And shoes cost more than
that. So now with podcasting, it's so easy to get interested
in it, it should be easy for people to do it. But back to
your comment about free. I just don't believe free. Makes sense.
There's always a catch. There's always a catch.
Well, free is expensive at the end of the day, I had. So web
3.0 which I have a feeling will run on some form of blockchain
type infrastructure may be quicker than we then we realize
I had a pretty good experience today I was trying to find some
documentation on a specific lightning node function. And I
came across the site, which is really nice, really well laid
out, you know, it's like someone took the GitHub Pages and then
made the documentation easy to understand color coded it and I
was like, Oh, this is exactly the info I wanted. And it said,
pay 150 satoshis or no is it three cents to continue? And I'm
like, Oh, hold on a second. You click on the button up pops a QR
code. I scan it with my phone. I hit yes. Boom, that page loads
That was a good experience. And I felt pretty good as well.
Because I saw most of the page I needed the information I didn't
have yet I knew it was obfuscated by this paywall, but
it was so fast and so easy for me to just, you know, pick a
random wallet scan the QR code done, very enjoyable.
They will process is difficult to get to overcome just in and
of itself, it's really not about it's not so much about paying as
it is. Is it is like this conjunction between two you're
paying and and how the process is going to work. Because when
if I'm if I'm clicking over to Vanity Fair, and to read an
article and it pops up a paywall, like, you know, I mean,
yeah, he's like, his shit, right?
Yeah, I mean, like, but but if I click over to sub substack, or
somebody there who I know is like an independent person who's
going to charge me five bucks a month, it's theirs, I'm willing
to sort of jump over the jump over the fence there and go
through the process of doing a stripe payment and all that kind
of thing. But doesn't like, well, this guy's gonna get all
the money, and he's gonna get most of this. And he's gonna get
a lion's share. I wonder
what stack fees are? I don't actually know what they're
charging should look into that. Yeah, I'm sure they're doing
Patreon level.
Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it's got to be small. Because
otherwise you couldn't really make a five bucks a month thing
work? Yeah, but
if they take 10%
mastery. Yeah, I don't know what the I don't know what that is,
is there's just some sort of some sort of conjunction between
who it is and, and the process that is going to
take, right. Yeah, I agree. And, and you feel when you're even if
you have your credit card details pre loaded in your
browser, auto fill, whatever. It's still. And by the way, if
I'm doing that for three cents, I'm not doing it and nor is the
credit card company, they're not. Either they're like, No,
no, you got to have at least $1 or whatever. I'm sure there's
some some limit because the feature just down the line or
higher for them. I just think that ease once you make it that
easy, and I know guaranteed three cents is going to go from
me to somewhere I don't give a crap. I know the guy's gonna get
it, he's going to get it directly. It's not going to get
subverted somewhere else. And it was easy
to set up an account and get
an account. Yeah, exactly.
Well, what Dan, or your you mentioned dynamic Anis, are
y'all doing any sort of ad insertion tech?
I mean that we're working on that hard. Just not be I
personally, I don't like dynamic ad insertion. And there's
there's two different when people say dynamic ad insertion,
there's kind of two different takes on it. One kind of
building on the second one. The first one is, I have a podcast,
there are certain areas of the podcast time codes of the
podcast that I've designated as Oh, my god, yes. Ready for an
ad? Yeah, right. And that will tell me what you're thinking I'm
because I'm
not I don't want to interrupt, keep going. Sorry about the
timecode problem.
Okay, so then, so then you insert your ad into that
programmatically. So you might you might say, well, I've got my
back catalogue, I've got 100 episodes, and I want to sell
them for 1000 bucks a month. And, you know, some mattress
company wants to pay me to put their ads. So I'll go do the ad
read for the mattress company and talk about how awesome the
mattress is. And then it's the system will use these time codes
that I've already entered in and drop this ad into the pre
existing back catalogue of shows, or maybe even in the new
app set of episodes that are coming out, it'll automatically
put them in, and and then now i can i can monetize that. And
then next month, I'm going to get 1000 bucks from some other
company and, um, it's going to go back and replace that in all
of those. All of those episodes, again, it's going to take the
mattress that out and put in the ad for the web hosting company.
And, and and, and then there's also the concept of dynamic ad
insertion, where it goes a step further than that and actually
serves different ads to different people based on their
geographic or geolocation. Right. So that they so that the
person who's in, you know, Alabama is going to hear an ad
for, you know, for their local company or some kind of regional
promotion. Go ahead,
pickup trucks, you can say yeah, hey, now we know where Dave's
from a dance, you
know, in Austin. Okay.
We got beamers we got ads for beamers and oskaloosa. Tesla's
Tesla, Yes,
exactly.
And then you know, the person in California is gonna get an ad
for a Prius. So basically, that's the that's the concept
and, and we're not doing the second one. At this point, we're
looking at doing the first one, which would make it easy for
people to put an ad into their pre existing or new episode.
They put in a time code that says here's where the ads should
go. And then our software adds it. But though, I've seen so
many different implementations of this, and my take on dynamic
ads are just, you know, I have, unlike unlike Adam, um, we have
done lots and lots of ads over the years in my shows. And, you
know, I always look at no agenda, and I'm like, I should
have done it that way. I should.
Not too late man.
No, and it's not too late. Unless, like you depend on the
ads that you have for the, you know, the income that you need,
I would love to do stuff. That's, that's just fully
listener supported. And most of the stuff that I'm doing now,
any new stuff that I work on, I'm trying to make listener
supported, because it's better. But you know, there. It's just
it's frustrating, because only bigger shows can get ads. And so
you have people who don't have a lot of downloads, and I've heard
this argument made by a lot of fireside customers for why they
want it. I've told them, like, you know, dynamically inserted
ads, they don't really work. They don't really perform that
well. And in my opinion, in many cases, they detract from the
quality of the show, they interrupt the show, it sounds
different. It doesn't sound genuine, even if it's host read.
And it they don't from what we've always heard from all of
the sponsors that I've worked with, for, you know, since since
2006, is that they don't work well, either. And they cheat. I
believe they cheapen the podcasts. And so the people who,
who let me just finish this point, the PA system that they
want them have said, Oh, well, I might make $25 a month doing
this. And I said yeah, but like you're screwing up your podcasts
like right, but that's 25 bucks a month. I could save up and get
a new microphone or something. Well, I guess that's a that's a
point. Right? But why bro? I don't love that.
I brought clips. So Adam play. If you want to hear if you want
to hear some dynamic adduser Yeah. Like clip one. This is
from this is from a Spotify original. What is the name of
this show? Let's see
mama knows best.
Mama knows best. That's it. Thank
you guys for all the support with the podcast. And I'm super
excited to see how you guys like the new updates. So I love you
all so much. And let's get into it.
Okay, stop. Stop it. You're about to hear this. This is this
is a Spotify exclusive. So this Spotify has got the full stack,
right? You know, MIT, humongous mega company. There. They can
they can laser focus, their dynamic ad insertion.
With surgical precision, surgical
precision. Yes, surgical precision. Alright, go.
And let's get into it.
So, before this episode,
how do you spend it? Okay, so he cuts her off in the in the
middle of a word. It's like,
so boom. Ad came? Two seconds too late.
Yeah, I mean, if if Spotify is that is their whole deal. And I
mean, is is top to bottom, we get the full stack man, laser
precision surgical. We can stick. It's horrible. Horrible.
And it cuts it off mid word. I mean, if they can't even do it,
right. Well, I mean, what I mean, it's just not, it's not
doable.
That's, you know, you wonder you wonder is that because the host
of the show or the producer of the show? Put the timecode in
wrong by a second or half second, or because the person
recording it didn't leave enough of a gap. And the other thing
is, what if you don't have any spot at all? How do you intro
it? Do you say oh, we want to thank our sponsor, how sad and
then you're back, like, you know, like, it's, there's so
much that has not been really explored.
We had pod show we were doing this 12 years ago. We were I
know we experimented with ad insertion. But the thing that
was the most exciting, which I'm gonna give Spotify, a free idea.
We had the golden ticket blatantly stolen from Willy
Wonka. And we had, I don't know, 20 different shows. And they
were promoting that if you listen to their show, you had a
chance of getting the golden ticket. And so we had, I think
10 or 15 golden tickets for some prize. And we would literally
insert that into just one or two in those 15 individually served
mp3 is across these different shows that some random generator
would come up with. And someone would hear you won the Golden
Ticket right in the middle of kind of show. More or less the
spot Well, this was all post produced. So we knew exactly
where to put the timecode in. But it was you know, for like
one individual person. It was very cool at the time and but
that was kind of for a gaming A fun element. And now it's just
become a, it's almost as bad as early cable television into
still happens today, you know, when you're when your local
cable station cuts to a break, but there's something messes up
with the timecode. And you see part of the national spot and it
cuts that off and it comes back and you get your car dealership.
And these things. No one's really ever perfected it.
Yeah, it's all of this is very tough and very confusing. And,
you know, the funny thing is that for so long, everyone said,
Wow, podcasting, it's so much better than radio. And one of
the big reasons that they always said it was better than radio is
because it didn't have stupid intrusive ads. And guess what
we're getting?
Well, Dan, I can't tell you how to run your business. And I
never would. But it seems to me if you added a value block
feature and sold, sold little mini nodes to your customers for
a couple extra bucks a month. They could probably coerce their
own audiences into into pledging money to listen and they would
have would get to that $25 a month pretty quickly. I think
you're right. Now I need you don't really have to learn how
to pitch other than pay pledge. You know, just and and do it for
all the podcasts you like,
trying to decide which is worse, a dynamic ad insertion or a host
read that is just like, so obvious that the person has it
as no idea what their what their pitch. And those are, those are
sometimes painful to listen well, so bad
as long as you can fast forward and you get that outside of
Spotify and Spotify. So if you can't fast forward through the
ads. So I love Megan Kelly's podcast. I think she's a pro
podcaster You know, it helps if you're rich. Because you know,
podcasting is a vow of poverty. But when she goes into a host
read, I'm like, fast forward. Like it's so demeaning to her
even like you shouldn't be reading this Megan, this icky. I
don't like it.
What, what it what podcasts are you currently excited about are
doing, Dan because I know you've always seemed to have, you know,
a dozen irons in the fire. I remember. I think the podcast
that I listened to, I think the first podcast I ever heard with
you and it was back to work now. And okay, so I'll give you the
the back to work podcast is the podcast that made me stop
listening to podcasts at one and a half speed dial. Yeah, I was
like, I would always set it to one and one and a half speed
with this with shortened silences and listening in if you
start listening to Merlin man, no, with that, it's like luck.
Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, he's like you're on crack
or something. I mean, it's like the you know, yeah, no, no, I
can't do this. That got me out of that habit. But what are you
what what podcasts are you into right now?
Well, the references that Merlin drops require Oh, you know like
he's so fast and I don't understand how anyone could
listen to that at anything but one time speed and then you
always get the people commenting like I heard you guys talking on
one one time speed and you both sound like you're drunk. I'm
really what is the rest of the world sound like to you? How do
you function in the real world when with people talking at one
speed like it must be really painful for you.
I think your brain up I think you can't like after a while I
would notice that when I got home from work on a on a commute
and I started to get out of the car when is to start talking to
my wife. I'm like this. Something doesn't feel right.
Yeah, you're like Hurry up, honey, hurry up, get to the
point. What do you want to say? What's going on here? Come on,
come
on. Come on. It's like you're it's like you've lived in an
episode of Gilmore Girls for the last hour and a half. And now
you and now nobody told no, there's the witty banter.
exactly what it is. Yes.
Right. Right.
Well, I have a very clear stance on this fast listening I I
believe I deliver a piece of art with every show and I question
if you jog past the Mona Lisa dammit. I think you should be
listening to my art and regular speed the way I intended it.
I don't know why people are in such a hurry that you know the
the response that I got when I used to really chastise people
about this eventually just gave up but I used to get like all
bent out of shape about it was you know, people said, Well, if
I can't listen it two times, then I won't be listening at all
because I don't have enough time in the day. I'm like, really,
really? Like do you fast forward? Do you watch your shows
on fast forward? That will if I could I would? Yeah. Well, I
agree with Dave on this. I think it messes people's brains up.
They get antsy. It probably goes well with the Adderall
generation. But I think it's it it may have Some longer term
cognitive effects on how you how you vary posture for things. I
don't know. I mean, you know, if you they say if you put on
glasses that invert everything within a day or two, you see a
normal. Yeah,
I don't understand that. I've heard the same thing. And it
freaks me out a little bit. I'm
wearing it right now.
So Dave, you're asking what shows I do or what what I
listened to?
Now, what do you do? Which shows are you excited about doing
right now?
So the ones that I've been I've been doing back to work you
mentioned with Merlin man since January of 2011, I think. Yeah.
And we're, we're, we're still having fun with it. I still love
talking to Merlin every week. And, and so I'm, I'm always
still happy to do that one. I do a show with john Roderick, like
I mentioned before, called roadwork, which we started doing
off the top of my head, I'm gonna say back in maybe august
of 25th 18. I think sounds right. So we've been doing that
show for a long time. I do a show called quit, where I help
people who write in or sometimes call in, they figure out what
they're doing with their mainly their business, their career,
that kind of thing. And that's a show that I've always had a lot
of fun with. And, and I love the letters that I get and the
questions that people ask. It's just it's so much fun. And then
there's, there's two other shows that I'm coming out with. One of
them is there is sort of a running joke on a couple my
other shows that we would always get feedback from people saying
how they listen to us or me and it puts them to sleep. They
listen at night when they're falling asleep. And I said well,
then I'll just do a show designed to do that. So go, I'm
I'm doing I'm going into the because you've got to use public
domain books. So I'm going to be reading public domain books like
the first one then I let people vote I let people vote. They
picked were the world's Ah, so I'm gonna be I'm gonna be
reading more of the world's two people to help them chill out.
And so that shows called the evening read. And and then after
afterward the world's they'll pick the next book, and I'll
just read them and they can listen to them and enjoy them.
See, that is
a great idea.
That's the perfect idea for the value blog, because they sleep
and it stays running.
Literally while they sleep instead of why sleep. It's
genius. And, and then the other show is a show that I've been
wanting to do for a very, very, very long time. That that is,
you know, very, I just want to do it the right way. So I've
been really procrastinating and I'm no I'm overthinking it now,
but I want to do a show where I add them where I explore a
different kinds of alternate reality kind of things, whether
it's UFOs, or alien abduction or simulation theory, or as always
trying to
do another show with him. Yeah, he's trying to suck me in once
again. No, Dan, you lost your shot, man. You lost it. I
did. I know. This was this was 10 years ago.
Now you didn't lose anything. My brother didn't lose anything.
Oh, prove me wrong, then come to the show with me.
No. You know, right now you
started like 20 different shows. Since then. I've been talking
about I feel left out over here and we're in Austin together.
We're Austin brothers.
No, I got I'm producing five shows a week now. This is this
is
how much worse would be to do one more.
much difference between five and six. I thought
five was the max that's what I always learned.
Alright, but I only listen Dave I only listen to one podcast
well to now. No agenda and then this show. Yeah. No.
Shit. Nice.
No, what I love about podcasting 2.0 since it never got what got
rejected for image reasons. At the apple index, I never re
submitted it to now whenever I'm trying a podcast I know real
quick if they're tied into podcasts index.org or not. Okay,
you don't you're not tied in
my secret weapon site.
Wait, you're saying Apple Apple rejected the show.
It was the artwork was something wrong size or God knows what it
was? And
they want I think they want 3000 by 3000 pixel. Yeah,
I think I think I gave him 2000 by 2000. And then he got
rejected. And I was like, you know, yeah, I'm just gonna leave
it. Let's just let's just not registered, and it's become a
really handy tool. Now it's like, let me see, because these
guys say they're not they're not integrated with our index. Hold
on a second. Otherwise, you'd find this show could
like that. That's a good topic because we eat it. You know,
part of the idea of starting the index was living outside the
apple ecosystem so that we have an independent index of podcasts
that don't require Apple to be the sort of thing The universe
and because it just not it doesn't make sense for us it
makes sense for one for a large many basically the largest
corporate entity in the world to be also the default Yellow Pages
for what is supposed to be an open an open standards
ecosystem. Right and so we we do a lot of things if you look at
our you know how much total how many total feeds we have it's
lower than some other you know, we've we've got roughly 1.3
something million feeds and others it's like three
hours old guys like what do you expect? Like you know what I'm
saying like a barely launched this thing. It's just give it
time. We have crazy how many you've got in the time that
you've been out? It's crazy. How many you've got? Well, I
appreciate fires, appreciate you. Because, like me, y'all
started auto submitting your new fates to us. I mean, God early.
Well, I was like, within a week of when we quote unquote,
launched it was the squishy isn't. It was
wasn't a launch is more like we leaked under the door.
It was like a blob.
Yeah, it's like, but I mean, it was within seriously, like a
week? They did. fireside was like, yeah, we're good. We're on
board. I was like, wow, that's fantastic. I think y'all were
the first one to start auto submitting to us. And, man, I
really appreciate that. Because so not you really, you because I
don't want I don't want to be scraping to try to get data, I
don't want to scrape Apple to try to find new feeds on a
contract basis. I just feel like this ideologically opposed to
the thing we're trying to do, which is not dependent on them.
So like, the only way to really make that happen is to have
independent streams of of data coming in that are giving dinner
handing you new feeds, and we get we get large dumps csvs
people sending it to us that's the part I
really enjoyed is there's there's definitely data guys out
in the in the universe, who've been collecting feeds and
categorizing them carefully, you know, Polish radio stations, all
kinds of interesting collections. And they show up
like, oh, here, here you go, I got 5000 feeds that you've never
heard of before. That's really cool.
It's been great. And then the host Yeah, the holsters auto
submitting like you guys, I mean, if everybody auto
submitted, because what we do is we we also expose a, you know,
an endpoint where every new feed that we get, we also publish
right back so you can, you know, you can follow it. So it's kind
of a clearinghouse model. And if everybody thought of submits
their new feats to us, then we can just hand them right back
out. And that can help other indexes to be created.
Absolutely. Yeah. And then and then we can, you know, we do we
can have redundancy, and don't
we have at least one index taking that in point?
I think pod versus pod verse,
take it maybe pod verse account, someone, someone somebody
does it? Yeah, yeah. But I think it's it, it, it's really nice to
see, to see everybody feeding to us, because even though we may
not have everything, you know, we're building slowly, and then,
you know, what we'll have at the end of the day is, is is a
decentralized index, where everybody can participate. And
you don't have to depend on, you know, what would be great is one
day, you know, is one day Apple participates as just another
peer, that'd be amazing. Yeah, instead, and that way, you
wouldn't have to depend on, you know, well, Apple rejected my
feed. And, you know, now I gotta do all this other stuff, and
resubmit, and wait five days to see if it gets okay. And all
this kind of jazz, you know, you just you just crank up your, you
know, your, your feed at that host at farside, or wherever,
and it just replicates through all the indexes in one shot.
You hear that Apple,
you hear that?
Take that endpoint I
love. I love what you guys are doing. And it's great to be a
because it feels very cutting edge. It feels like the first
thing that I've seen anybody do in this space in a long time, or
maybe at all, to really start to try to move things forward. And
you guys are doing it, not as a company like apple or Spotify,
who's doing it for monetization, you're doing it for the
community, you're doing it for the industry, you're doing it
for the podcasters and that any anything that like we can do to
support that is like, I don't see it as optional, although
it's fun to do, and I like it and I'm happy to when I'm doing
it. It's to me, it's like yeah, of course you're gonna do what
you need to do to support this industry. And and we appreciate
the support you've given because just participating, you know,
hitting the API with whatever is appropriate. That's exactly what
we need. And we really appreciate that this
is, of course, a value for value project. This is also a value
from value podcast. Again, to show how well this idea works,
if you say, Hey, are you listening? Are you using the
index the API? Is this valuable to you? What is that value? send
it back to us. Now, of course, we have a beautiful red Donate
button on podcast. index.org. We also have a lightning invoice
there, which from time to time, someone shows up and does a
subscription, which is really nice. We've had some really
gracious people who have been helping us out. Because Yeah, we
did start it from a from the entire value for value
perspective. If this is not valuable, it will dry up and
blow away. But it's not. And Dave, you have a couple of
people need to thank who have who sent in donations if you
don't mind. Damn, we're just gonna now of course, we got a
huge donation from an anonymous donor.
Yeah. And we we are Yeah, I can I can tell Dan wants to be in
donations. That means I can hear in his voice. Yes,
of course. He does. Absolutely. participate. Yes. Yeah.
See, here we got quite a few here. See Leslie Martin. Did a
to $2 a month subscription. Oh, and dandy. No, Leslie. And not
not that wall. Okay. Leslie Martin, says it. I'm sorry.
My wife. Like what's going on?
No, no, I
don't I thought Leslie may be in the Austin club.
Just trying to draw down into our value for value segment
aren't Yes. No matter what you do.
If that if she she
and I saw the Guns and Roses New Year's Eve concert.
Oh, that one? Yeah.
Is that is that the one where Axl Rose was two hours late or
two and a half hours late
guys. This is like a morning zoo. Now all of a sudden.
Like if that if Dan had a had a lightning node, we could put him
in the block
to show us right. That's right. All fall
into lightning. Node
voltage.io you can get it getting
paid right now.
Yes. As we
saw, I'm going as fast as I can. You'd be like,
like I could. I could do another podcast. I would just sit back
and watch this. A Toshi is rolling baby pass. That's the
choice you'll have to make 10 in a
month, you'd have $15 just like we did. Okay, so Leslie sent a
note and I don't know if Leslie I'm looking for keywords in here
where Leslie could say to give me a clue as to whether Leslie
is a boy or girl so it says
that that could that could that could be either couldn't Yep,
yeah,
yeah. First let me say that I'm not a developer. I don't work
for a hosting company. And I'm not currently a podcaster Oh, I
get well no, this doesn't help either. This is even my wife
doesn't listen to me these days
doesn't mean shit as a mattering doesn't matter.
Why would I think anyone else would want to listen to me but I
am a listener. Adams always talking about paying what
something is worth to you. My donation a mere $2 a month don't
call it mere
No, it's that's your value. Leslie. Yeah,
yeah, that's not mere doesn't reflect what the podcasts in the
index project are to me because I can't afford what I consider
to be their value. It's merely what I can afford.
Yeah, but that's on top value for you. So we really appreciate
that.
Yep. Thank you, Leslie. Appreciate that. Every
everything we there is no limit for reading donations on the
show. No. It's there's there's no bottom floor. Thank you,
Leslie. And, well, we had one cancellation of an automatic
subscription. That's that hurts.
How much was that? How much did you guys lose?
$10 that's,
that's that's an aggregate an aggregator server Yeah, yeah,
I shut it down shut it down.
Click Click Click man down Yes. And on that same note thank you
to our month our monthly donors because they a few more of those
came in and see them when they may when it when it auto pings
or whatever. And just want to make sure that that's that's my
guys know we love you.
That is so fantastic. Those recurring because, you know, we
literally set up an extra server. It's like Okay, good. We
know that's running. Appreciate it.
Yeah, this is this is bare bones here. Let's see. This says in
humongous letters. I don't know why this print. It's a Vegas as
I wish to remain unknown. nonnamous gave a gave a fiver to
podcast, excuse me, gave a fiver to pocket casts in order to
promote cut podcast 2.0 features left me feeling that you deserve
more. Thank you for your courage. And that is a $55. One
time, one time donation.
Thank you. So trying to get pocket casts on board. Good.
That's the work we need. That's appreciated. Thank you.
And our final donation is Wes young. Gave us $25 and his
message is keep on rockin.
So we will.
Thank you, Wes when we will hear $25 that enables us to rock
harder than you did before you get
how hard Are you rocking right now, Dave? Just want to make
sure are you on the high on the rock? ometer? Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. It's a mosh pit over here. See? Yeah, this is so as
our donors for this week.
Yeah, we appreciate everyone supporting the project. Again,
if you want to support us, if you get any value out of the
podcast or out of the the index itself, if you're using one of
the apps, of course, we really want you to prepare for
lightning and for podcasting 2.0. But right now, anything you
can spare anything you think is equal to the value you get out
of this, just go to podcast, index.org, Big Red Donate button
down at the bottom, and as well as a lightning invoice. And on
many apps, you should just be able to hit the the donut donut,
the donate button.
I want a donut. But don't
we need a new tag the donut donut tag? Yeah, that works
surprisingly well. I like that a lot when I'm when I use pod
friend as an example and then shows the donate button that
takes you right to the correct page that that interaction
turned out to work very well.
Y'all are doing the funding tag, right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
We
did all those first tags. So we've got all that in there.
Yeah. I like
the I like the funding tag. I know, there was There's our it
was already being done with some some other stuff with like, atom
links and that kind of thing. But I like the funding tag just
because I felt like it was worth sort of duplicating that
functionality. Because it's, it's simple. Like it simplifies
everything from an aggregator standpoint, it's just like,
funding link. Right?
Right. Hi.
The now I want to throw something in, sort of at the
back end of the donation segment here. If you're because people
request readwrite API keys, you know, on a, on a, on a regular
basis, I'm not going to grant permission for a readwrite key
unless we know who you are on the on. You need to join
podcasts index social and, and, and become like and speak. So we
so we know who you are, because we're we don't want shenanigans.
So for now, for now, this will change may change in the future.
But we need to kind of know what you what you are what you're
trying to do. I mean, it's fine to do test and you don't have to
be like us some kind of app, it's fine to just be playing
around but we we do want you to kind of make yourself known and
and understand what you're going to do before you begin to read
write key and you start dumping but you know loads of garbage
into the index. You know, that's we
haven't had any of that behavior. Have we?
No, no, no. All it No. Everybody's playing very nice.
Man. Is
there anything you'd like to see us do anything we can implement
streamline? Fix, make better work? How can we help you? Man,
I
love what you guys have been doing. Just Just keep it going.
And I really there's no, there's nothing else that I feel right
now you guys could really be doing better. I love the way
that you have launched all this stuff. Even though you were
criticizing it. I think it's actually been really fun. And it
feels like a real movement to me. And I love what y'all are
doing. I wish perfect. I'm saying you're perfect. I wish I
wish I had something to say I wish I was I was thinking oh,
you need this, you need that. But really, I love what you're
doing. And honestly, the input that you guys take from the
community and the way that you're building these different
things is so really thoughtful. And Gosh, I really couldn't
think of anything else to add. I like the direction that you're
going in. If you do, the one thing I might think of is
you soften the blow. Really No,
I just as I'm talking
on the pillow, you're sliding the pillow underneath,
maybe maybe you guys could keep going in this direction that you
were talking about with chapters and help bring awareness to what
else chapters can do. Because I really don't think that people
understand the potential that's there for chapters that think
they think of it as like, well. This is segment one, this
segment two, segment three, but that almost to me is a way to
get audience engagement even if they're just looking because a
lot of the time people when they put up podcasts on, it's playing
in their house or they're doing what they're doing while they're
jogging or they're on the treadmill, or they're doing
dishes or walking the dog. So they're not even aware that
these images are popping up on their right on their things. So
I think there's there's an educational aspect to to the
podcaster. And to the audience that there's more to it than
that. But I just anything that you guys can be thinking about,
for that kind of engagement, whether it's coming up with
this, because I believe if we put out a if you guys put out a
really good standard that made it possible for podcast
applications to record not in a creepy way would have to be opt
in but record what Liz listeners are actually doing. Are they
pausing? Are they playing? Are they finishing the whole
episode? Are they skipping something, if there was a
centralized reporting service that was open, that apps could
tie into to do that if their users opted in, and that it
could then though, that could be reported back to the host that
would make all of my customers so happy. So that's I don't know
how that would work or what that would look like. But it would
need to be a trusted third party to do it. It couldn't be that
overcast is collecting it, and then doing something with it, it
would have to be reported clean reporting it to to a third party
and you guys should be the third party. So no big but just
I don't know, if we want to be the third party, I
don't think you do. But I want you to be.
Thank you. I appreciate that. And by the way, for those of you
listening right now, I want you to make sure you listen to this
podcast and either pod friend go to web dot pod friend comm or
get a hyper catcher, because at this very moment, if you look at
your your your app screen, you will see a picture of Dan
Benjamin, right there. Look how he looks on 3654. Okay, I'm
putting that in? Well, the frayed picture will prove Oh,
it'll be the goat obviously. Yeah, yeah. Well, the short The
short answer to your to your listening statistics we've
discussed, you know that there is a way to do that. And it's
completely trustless yet verified and an accurate. That
is no third party. Okay. Everyone has their own data?
Well, yeah, that would work.
And is the Yeah, I was thinking. Do you guys, this may be off
top. But does farside the support web sub?
Oh, that's a good question.
Um, you know, we've had, it would be very, very easy for me
to roll that out. I've had a few requests for it. And actually, I
have a branch that has that working in it. Should we Is it
important? It's
something we should have? I think so. We're,
when is this episode coming out?
Today Today in like, 30 minutes? Yeah. Oh, well, it
won't be it won't be done by the time that the episode comes out.
But give me what you're getting in? Well, I gotta go eat some
lunch.
Yeah, web service is helps us a lot.
Does it all implement that? I'll have it beginning of next week
for you.
I love about Dan. Nice.
Next week. No
problem.
Yeah, that's great. Like, cuz I'm gonna do it.
What do you want me to say it should submit to that Google the
Google one, right?
Sure. Yeah, you can start there. They're they're not super. I've
got will tell me what I use. No, no, no, it's, that one's fine.
That one's fine. I think it's, it may be the only one that's
free. But what I was thinking of is the one you know, I wonder if
you could do it just in house.
Is that just run my own? run my own one? Yeah, sure. I
don't care. Yeah, I don't I don't know that. I don't know
what's out there.
But is that what you want me to do? Because I'll do that for
you.
Because here's the problem. I think, based on what I have seen
that the app, was it pub sub, pub sub hub dot app, spot.com,
which is the worst domain name in the history. So I think that,
that Google, that's Google's public one I think, I don't know
if it's overloaded or what that
is missing stuff. It's missing stuff. Yeah,
it is missing things. And it's it's not it's not reliable. I
think it's about it's about 75% which is enough to kind of be a
problem. And we thought about the we thought about being an
open as well. Now I don't know if we can you know, like the
volume obviously becomes a problem. When you're talking
about trying to be in anytime you do something free. Oh,
you're gonna get you're gonna get hammered. But I was thinking
you know if if the hosts ran their own Yo yo can handle that
traffic because the traffic for each for each one is not super
high. Mm hmm. And it may make things much more reliable. I
don't know. I'm just throwing that out there. Stone. I
like that idea. I think there's something there.
I will look into that. For sure.
Okay.
All right, Dan Benjamin, running fireside in Austin, Texas. five
by five. What else? Anything else we need to promote for you?
Man, you've
promoted so much for me already. I couldn't ask for anything
else. fireside.fm is the thing we've been talking about this
whole time and shows it five by five. tv and Gosh, that's it,
guys. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to
be here.
The new area 57 podcast with Dan Benjamin.
Yeah.
Alright guys, thank you both very much. It was a great way to
kick off the weekend. Perfect Friday, and we'll see you all
over there at the index. Thanks, Dan.
Thank you.
Alright, everybody. That's it.
Break it down.
We'll be back next week to bring you another Friday board meeting
of podcasting. 2.0
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