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podcasting 2.0 for December
12 2020, this is episode number

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15. And Hey baby, we're with the
band

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all around. But it is

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a Friday time once again for a
meeting of the Board for

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podcasting 2.0 podcast
index.org. And now, ladies and

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gentlemen, the man who put the
auto in autocomplete the

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developer Dynamo, Mr. Dave
Jones.

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Was the band, the band.

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The band, we were the band. Were
the band. Yeah, this is

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something. First of all, how you
doing? Man?

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I'm sad. You're sad, is
extremely depressed. What's

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wrong? And nobody appears to
like us anymore. We had two

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donations this week.

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Oh, honeymoon is over.

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No. Yeah, yeah, it's Yeah, it's
the cold hard. Facing the cold

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hard reality now of the dark
winter. Yes, it's dark winter.

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Yeah, it's dark winter. Well,

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then let me say right off the
bat, if this is a value for

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value projects, podcast,
index.org and the accompanying

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podcast. And if you want to
support it, if you get any value

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out of what you're seeing, maybe
you're an app developer, maybe

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you're just a podcast listener,
maybe just listen to this

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podcast. Who knows? Maybe you
just like free speech. And that

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kind of stuff and fighting
against canceled culture. Put

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that into a number put in just
keep it in your head, go to

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podcast index.org and hit the
big red Donate button and send

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us some value. We'd really
appreciate that. We did get a

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nice sponsored value returned
from RSS calm.

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Yeah, totally. And I've put that
into the donation since he was

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already so sure.

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That's one of the two. Yeah,
let's

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not talk about that right now.
You gotta save it.

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Okay, that's not

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one of the two. That's the nest
number three, like two and a

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half. Yeah.

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That was in pod news. And I and
I do want to say now you're sad.

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I'm a little bit Earth.

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Oh, yeah. Because

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I know. James Cridland pod news.
dotnet. He has a podcast, which

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is that called the pod news
podcast. Is

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that what that is? But there's
that and then he's got a new one

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called pod land.

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I don't know which one I was
listening to maybe was pod land.

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And all of a sudden, he's like
stealing our material he's doing

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he's doing hot namespace talk.
Excuse me. Yes, that's not okay.

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It's like horning in on our
business. Dave?

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Yeah. No, we get there's only
one podcast that gets to talk

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about namespaces for an hour
seriously.

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I mean, we are the porn hub of
namespace.

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And it's so appropriate.

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Appropriate. I know I saw a Ryan
Gentry from lightning labs he

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was he posted in one I think
Tales from the Crypt tribe on

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swings chat, says Does anyone
know anyone over to Pornhub

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asking for a friend

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is like okay, they need a Visa
MasterCard. For exactly the

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processing. Let's get in there.
My immediate reaction was well

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get ready for Bitcoin. 100,000.
Yeah, is it's going up baby.

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And Tina right away. She's like,
oh, Bitcoin. There's your

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answer. That's what you got to
do.

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That was funny. Yeah. That was
funny. Yeah. deeper on on social

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media.

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She knows man. She knows

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that. If she does. She needs to
send them an invoice. That's

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good. material. Reminder,
insulting.

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She should send us a Yeah, when
she can send us a lightning

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invoice. We'll pay it. Yeah.
When she can. She has a wallet.

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So does she Yeah. Oh, yes. I
want a wallet. Okay. You go. And

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what she needs is a podcast that
wallet. That's what she needs.

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And that's true. I want to ask
everyone who's listening to this

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in a in a lightning enabled app
to crank up the value sliders,

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please peg that to the right.
thing. Go to whatever whatever

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your value settings should be.
And I was thinking now that we

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have Dred Scott, doing community
chapters for the show, which is

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dynamite. I don't know if you've
seen it.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was awesome.
I saw it. The one I saw earlier,

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the chapters were rolling
through. And it was like, just

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links to pay like iframes with
pages and it could scroll. It

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was awesome. It was that love
that article? substack. karate.

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Oh, yeah. Last week it was in
there. You could just read the

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article right in the app. Yeah,
cool is that pause the podcast,

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read the article and then
unpause it. Of course, that

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article was like 500 miles

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an article. Yeah. And if you're
wondering how you can witness

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all this beauty, go to new pod
stamps.com that's where, where

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you can find all the apps and
services hosting companies that

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are podcasting 2.0 compliant,
and certified as an idea.

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I just had an idea. Okay? If
that happens, you're sitting

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there listening to a podcast and
the chapter comes through, and

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has something you can read or
something like that. We get a,

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you get to have some way to have
like a lightning payment into

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things. So you can see you could
like, help the person, this

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stuff you're linking to.

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So okay, two things. And this,
and we'll just get this out of

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that we have guests hanging, so
I don't want to take too long.

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But I had dinner with Paul from
Sphinx chat. He was in Austin,

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the other day. And so first off,
yes. What I'd like to do with

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the show right now, since Dred
Scott is doing our chapters, I'm

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going to get him a node. And we
should cut him in on the value

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block for what 5%?

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Oh, yeah, sure. Should

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we do that's great. Yeah. So we
can also show how this actually

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works and, and have him enjoy
some of that. I mean, that's the

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whole point is, you know, we are
eating our own dog food here.

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And coming back to what you just
said, We're with the band was

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something that Paul identified
at our dinner, he said, what's

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happening with the community
chapters that people can add to

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it, but also in Sphinx chat with
the boosts and with the chat

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itself. That's all additional
content that is added by the

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listeners, I like to call them
producers. And it makes you feel

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like you're with the band. And
so Dred Scott is truly with the

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band right now. And the Lee with
the the amount of creativity he

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can put in with still very
rudimentary tools is quite

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astounding. And what he's what I
see him do on no agenda, where

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he's doing the same also gonna
put him in the value block for

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that show, is he'll get images,
appropriate images from no

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agenda, art generator, and put
those in topics that we're

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talking about stuff because most
of those images come up from a

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topic that just not picked up
the album art. So now he's

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putting that in. So now that
that now also brings in the

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other artists, I mean, it's, you
know, who you're with the band,

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and they get to be a part of the
podcast, it's really mind

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blowing. And I want to have that
for clips. You know, there's,

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there's just so much stuff that
we could add to it. And it's

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gonna be pretty app specific the
way it is. Now, unless or until,

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you know, every child born is
provided a lightning node ID at

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birth, which is really what I
think should happen. I'm

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going Somali, I'm

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going to lobby for this. Yes. A
shot of every child needs a

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lightning

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node ID Yeah. And you just
barcode it on your forehead?

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Well, that's fine. As long as
it's not on the forehead or on

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your right hand. And it's not
the mark of the beast. It's a

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good thing.

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Yeah, everybody gets a lightning
node. And here's the number

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we're gonna tattoo. I don't,
there's nothing wrong with this.

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So and this is maybe something
we'll talk with our guests

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about. It kind of flows into
what is the end? God, I can't

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believe I'm using the term the
deep data file, which is up for

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discussion now. Which you're not
liking it. Oh, you're not out of

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file. Well, hit me, brother.

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I don't know what rule I got
what rule it is. It's the rules.

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First, we

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need to go back to the rule
book. Yeah.

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Yeah, you know, and I get it. I
totally understand that. The

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name doesn't match up with
necessarily all the things it

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does. The problem, though, is
that it really doesn't matter

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what you call it. That that is
in that is one of the rules for

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standard makers. It totally
doesn't matter what

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right. All right, the then I'm
misunderstanding the issue. I

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thought it wasn't just about,
here's what I here's what I feel

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is happening. And I could be
wrong. And it's not an

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accusatory statement. I feel
there's a push to have an

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external data file that will
contain all kinds of extra

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goodies. And one day, I'm gonna
wake up and it's gonna be JSON.

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That's,

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that's what it already is.
Jason, you're living your

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dreams. Okay.

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I knew it was a backdoor to JSON
somehow.

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I say yeah, no, it's Jason. Is
it JSON all the way down, but I

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do

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see the value in having the
ability now. And it all depends

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on what's easier. Is it easier
to have podcast apps, no one to

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refresh the feed and get new
information, or is it easier to

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have a couple of files in there
that are static that the apple

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just reread every single time it
fires up for an episode? That

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seems to be the the main crux of
the issue.

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Yeah, I mean, the chapters file
is already basically that it's

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it's it is the quote unquote
deep data file. And I'm never in

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a. That's, that's what it is.
And so that's what like Daniel

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is saying is that he thinks that
the the name chapters does not

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properly reflect what, oh,

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I don't care about file. I don't
care about the name

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that doesn't. That's, that's
where I'm at to it. And he, he,

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he likened it to with choosing
the name podcast for the podcast

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namespace. I think that is that
is different. That is that is

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something that's sort of
external as far as the way it

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works in the world. And you
mean, it's a name that people

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need to understand,

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right? They even is, but this
came out of a confusion saying

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that clips is identical
information to chapters, or did

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I misunderstand?

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Well, it does sound I think you
think sound bites? Yes. Yeah. it

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so well. My my thing is that
when I say it, totally doesn't

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matter what you what you name
it, I don't mean that it doesn't

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matter what the Nate what you
call it, ever. Like, in all

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circumstances, what I mean, what
I mean, in in, I'm probably not

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making this clear either, is
that it doesn't matter what you

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call it, when you get down into
the technical weeds? Mm hmm. So

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like, we use things called me,
think of a TCP IP is a

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meaningless term. It's an
acronym for something and most

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people don't ever, most people
don't need to know, it doesn't

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matter what it even stands for.
It just does a thing. And we

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know what it does. The name
chapters, it doesn't matter.

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Because the only people
referencing the chat the name

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chapters who even need to know
what it means, or the people

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that are doing the protocol
implementation. And so for those

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people, they just know that a
chapters file has all these

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other things in it. And, and so
it's just fine. I mean, you

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could call it, you know, you
could call it block.

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Okay. All right. Let me let me
play this back to you. So the

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chapters file, could be could be
both chapters file and sound

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bytes file or just the sound
bytes file, it doesn't matter

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what it's called, that day, that
type of data will be in that

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file.

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What it's more, it's less about
the soundbite and more about

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other types of data like
location, don't you know, that's

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in I don't even I didn't even
want to bring that up. Because

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location tag is, is not I got I
got all hot and bothered listen

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to Cridland about it. So I might
as well bring it up. Yeah, no,

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it's the location tag is fine.
It stands alone, it's gonna be

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it we get, we get that it will
get over the hump. But there is

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also an idea of putting a
location location points inside

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the chapters file. So if
somebody was doing a podcast of

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like a walking tour, you can put
little pocket. So at that point,

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it's like, well, it's not
chapters anymore. It's something

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else. But you know, my, my
counter example was bookmarks

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and a PDF, bookmarks and a PDF.
Yes, they function as bookmarks,

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but they also have other things.
And I'm like, you can put a full

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JavaScript code in. Right,
which, which I have, yeah, yeah.

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And it resizes the page, when
you click on it changes font

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00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:26,760
does all this crazy crap. So and
we still call them bookmarks.

222
00:13:27,630 --> 00:13:30,480
You don't know. I'm just saying
that. At a technical level, you

223
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,330
don't have to change the name of
a thing just because it doesn't

224
00:13:33,330 --> 00:13:36,840
necessarily match the
functionality of the thing. As

225
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,210
long as the name sort of
encompasses the idea. There the

226
00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:46,170
the goal, you know, that's fine.
I just don't I just not I just

227
00:13:46,170 --> 00:13:47,850
don't think it's that big of a
deal. Yeah, okay.

228
00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:50,880
Well, I was confused because I
didn't realize was just about

229
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,490
that. What it's called I thought
it was much deeper. So I'm

230
00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:55,800
sorry, even brought it up. I'm
sorry, I ruined your day.

231
00:13:57,630 --> 00:13:58,140
Piss.

232
00:14:01,230 --> 00:14:01,980
Okay.

233
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,520
Before we get past them I know,
you know, before we Anyway, it

234
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,100
was great planning and talking
to Paul. An update on that

235
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:18,150
front. You know, the breeze work
continues. I've no idea when the

236
00:14:18,180 --> 00:14:23,160
when their drop date is for, for
a wallet with, whether it's

237
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,940
wallet with podcast capabilities
or a standalone app. I'm not

238
00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:29,520
quite sure but they are
developing and they have code on

239
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,750
GitHub. Did you see that code?

240
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:31,860
Do you look at it at all?

241
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,530
I did I linked over to and look
at the wall had met totally had

242
00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:35,280
no idea what else

243
00:14:36,929 --> 00:14:38,009
could you figure it out?

244
00:14:38,669 --> 00:14:39,119
I could.

245
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,300
I could lie to you and tell you
I was all over it. This looks

246
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:42,690
really

247
00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:44,310
look real structured to me.

248
00:14:44,850 --> 00:14:48,090
Yeah, I think it looks fine.
Yeah, let's just look beautiful.

249
00:14:49,559 --> 00:14:54,299
And then we also talked about
about nodes and stuff like that,

250
00:14:54,299 --> 00:15:00,599
and I've been talking to
graham@voltage.io because We

251
00:15:00,599 --> 00:15:04,379
witnessed kind of an overload of
our nodes with the with the

252
00:15:04,439 --> 00:15:07,109
amount of transactions and he
confirmed it. I think, you know,

253
00:15:07,259 --> 00:15:10,559
podcast index.org has the most
transactions of anyone right now

254
00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:15,119
on the lightning network, which
is quite bizarre. And something

255
00:15:15,119 --> 00:15:18,179
happened because he
automatically upgrades to more

256
00:15:18,179 --> 00:15:20,819
CPU and we're actually going to
get a dedicated set up from him.

257
00:15:22,259 --> 00:15:25,259
And so channel started to close
and then we were missing keys

258
00:15:25,259 --> 00:15:27,269
and payments. And

259
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:28,529
now I can't work

260
00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:33,299
no and, and even closed our
channel to Spinks chat. I'm

261
00:15:33,299 --> 00:15:36,779
like, What am I gonna do? And
even though it's discouraged in

262
00:15:36,779 --> 00:15:41,069
the lightening documentation,
which I didn't realize until I

263
00:15:41,069 --> 00:15:42,569
was told later, that

264
00:15:42,809 --> 00:15:44,879
there's light, there's lightning
document documentation.

265
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,240
Yes. Well, yes. And there's
apparently there's there's a

266
00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:51,840
thing that says it's really
quite not done to request

267
00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:56,760
inbound liquidity on Twitter,
which I do it. And of course, he

268
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,540
got like 15 or $20,000 worth of
inbound liquidity from some

269
00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:02,970
great partners and peers
routing. So

270
00:16:03,090 --> 00:16:04,470
you're a rule breaker, man,

271
00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:05,640
I

272
00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:08,429
What can I say? All right, our
guest today,

273
00:16:09,059 --> 00:16:13,709
we're invited. Daniel J. Daniel
J. Lewis. Olivia. Don't hate me.

274
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:19,950
You are the worst. No one hates
anybody. But we're honest. You

275
00:16:19,950 --> 00:16:24,000
know that. We got no time for
politics. We really don't. We

276
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,020
got no money for politics. How
about that? I got no money for

277
00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:31,380
politics. Sorry, interrupted. Go
ahead. Well know you invited our

278
00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:34,170
guests. So why don't you give
them an intro?

279
00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:39,450
Oh, john, and Justin from
transistor. Welcome to the show.

280
00:16:39,509 --> 00:16:41,009
Oh, damn. Great intro.

281
00:16:45,630 --> 00:16:47,160
JOHN, john and Justin.

282
00:16:49,380 --> 00:16:50,580
Yeah, yeah.

283
00:16:50,610 --> 00:16:51,390
Okay. That

284
00:16:51,389 --> 00:16:55,199
guy. Justin Jackson transistor,
Fei.

285
00:16:55,649 --> 00:17:01,199
Yeah. Dave. I signed up for this
gig. Because those intros man I

286
00:17:01,199 --> 00:17:03,419
would, I would sign up to hear
those all day long.

287
00:17:03,749 --> 00:17:06,569
doing a podcast with Adam. It's
just like, you just turn on the

288
00:17:06,569 --> 00:17:09,419
fire hose. This is great. But
the

289
00:17:09,419 --> 00:17:13,619
auto and auto complete. I mean,
that is? Well,

290
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,650
I mean, this is a new feature
Dave's been working on he isn't

291
00:17:16,650 --> 00:17:19,170
done yet. He got an autocomplete
endpoint, don't you?

292
00:17:19,769 --> 00:17:21,989
This should be a safe it.
There's gonna be a chapter

293
00:17:21,989 --> 00:17:26,069
whenever. Whenever Dred Scott
puts the chapters together? Yes.

294
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:33,299
Episode is just one of them's
gonna be called Davis sad. face.

295
00:17:33,329 --> 00:17:37,739
Yeah. And the other one's gonna
be called Is it done yet? Every

296
00:17:37,739 --> 00:17:39,929
week, there's gonna be one
called Is it done yet? No, it is

297
00:17:39,929 --> 00:17:42,899
not done yet. Okay, it isn't.
It's not done. I got a curve.

298
00:17:42,930 --> 00:17:46,140
I got some curveballs. See, this
is this is what I know that Dave

299
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:49,770
is, like, he's a little bored is
when all of a sudden they're

300
00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:52,830
like this new feature is like,
I'm doing this now. Like, holy

301
00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:53,370
crap.

302
00:17:54,660 --> 00:17:55,350
Am I right?

303
00:17:56,219 --> 00:18:01,229
That's what that's that. Justin.
And john, are you Dr. Y'all both

304
00:18:01,229 --> 00:18:01,919
developers.

305
00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:06,930
Now. Now in our partnership,
john is the developer. So this

306
00:18:06,930 --> 00:18:10,290
is making me look real bad,
because now he's going to expect

307
00:18:10,650 --> 00:18:14,340
a similar Adam Curry treatment.
Every time he releases something

308
00:18:14,340 --> 00:18:14,730
new.

309
00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:17,700
Just talk like you're no you're
talking about?

310
00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:19,440
Exactly. That's

311
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,900
what I do. That's what we that's
what we do every week.

312
00:18:23,339 --> 00:18:26,099
All right. So john, come on in
here. You're the you're the

313
00:18:26,099 --> 00:18:28,349
developer of the two with the
with the deep breath with the

314
00:18:28,349 --> 00:18:29,219
deep voice.

315
00:18:29,609 --> 00:18:31,619
Yep, that's me, Kofi.

316
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,620
That's what I was gonna say when
Adam asked if that was true, if

317
00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:37,830
I was bored as well. Yeah, john.
I mean, of course, that's what

318
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:40,410
happens. You do stuff and you
get you start working on

319
00:18:40,410 --> 00:18:42,360
infrastructure stuff, and it
gets boring. And then you just

320
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:44,670
have to like, shake it up and do
so I can

321
00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,160
I can relate. I have. I've been
I've had multiple projects going

322
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:49,710
on once and then I just switch
between them until I can finish

323
00:18:49,710 --> 00:18:53,940
one. Yeah, it's like Justin,
Justin knows. Yeah.

324
00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:58,440
So Justin, to the frustration of
everybody else.

325
00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:03,120
Yeah. So Justin and john,
together founded transistors hit

326
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:03,990
transistor or

327
00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:11,609
transistor, FM. Some people
don't like putting their domain

328
00:19:11,609 --> 00:19:14,489
extension in there. But for me,
that's like free marketing. It's

329
00:19:14,489 --> 00:19:19,319
transistor.fm is the site. But
it's, it's legally just

330
00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:20,039
transistor.

331
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:24,390
Yeah, I like this name. Because
for me, it triggers all kinds of

332
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:27,930
radio, visions of a transistor
radio that may not have even

333
00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:30,780
been the intent behind the name.
But give us a bit of the

334
00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:34,140
backstory because it's a
relatively young hosting

335
00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:35,730
company, I think a couple years,
right.

336
00:19:36,660 --> 00:19:41,040
That's right. Yeah. JOHN, do you
want to do you want to give the

337
00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:48,120
guy and try to give a short
history? Let's see. So it we'd

338
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:50,850
launched officially in August of
2018.

339
00:19:50,849 --> 00:19:53,309
I think that right? Yeah. August
2, yeah.

340
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:59,670
Okay, so August 2018. But the
actual code it started in the

341
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:05,400
end of 2017, I was working for
Cards Against Humanity, and they

342
00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:10,680
were doing a big holiday event.
And one of those was a podcast

343
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,720
they were releasing. And I was a
developer there. And it

344
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,160
previously worked on a
podcasting platform. kind of

345
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,950
thinking about doing another one
building my own, again, by

346
00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:29,610
myself. And so with that, I had
the opportunity to sort of build

347
00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:32,040
something simple just for that
one podcast, which then

348
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:38,310
eventually spun out into
transistor. So they were nice

349
00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:41,160
enough to let me work on side
projects, which they kind of let

350
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,120
everyone do. And then I had
known Justin for years back for

351
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:48,480
meeting him at Expo Expo down
in, in Portland, OR over in

352
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,580
Portland, whichever direction
you want to go. And we've been

353
00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:57,060
talking about doing something
together for a long time, I sort

354
00:20:57,060 --> 00:21:01,260
of wanted to do transistor on my
own, based on just previous

355
00:21:01,260 --> 00:21:05,970
experience with some with a co
founder. But, but the more I

356
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:09,480
thought about it, I was like, I
don't really I don't have any

357
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,180
idea how to market this thing.
Right. So it's just me a

358
00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:16,440
developer, I would basically do
nothing to market it. And

359
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,680
Justin, I kind of wanted to do
something starting in 2018. So

360
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:26,220
we decided to partner up and
made it legal. And kind of been

361
00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:31,740
going from there. We went full
time last summer. I believe,

362
00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:35,670
yeah. Almost a year, exactly. To
a year after we launched

363
00:21:35,670 --> 00:21:40,380
officially. So August 2019. And
bootstrap the whole thing.

364
00:21:40,410 --> 00:21:42,600
That's a pretty generous
retelling, actually, because

365
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:46,890
when john told me he was working
on this, I begged him. I'm john.

366
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:49,770
I said, john, you gotta let me
You gotta let me partner up with

367
00:21:49,770 --> 00:21:51,960
you on this. We got to do this
together.

368
00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:53,730
Yeah, I didn't want to mention
the desperation, but

369
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,570
perfectly played perfectly.

370
00:21:59,130 --> 00:22:03,300
Now what now? Why? So john,
you're a developer. So you'd

371
00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:07,350
like to what you were doing you
developed it? Was there a Did

372
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:10,290
you see that there was a an
opportunity in the market? Or

373
00:22:10,290 --> 00:22:13,050
was the market so small? Because
you know, there's a number of

374
00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:16,650
players out there. Yeah. And
Justin, why were you begging

375
00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:18,930
man? What the hell were you
thinking? Taking a vow of

376
00:22:19,020 --> 00:22:20,940
poverty getting into podcasting?

377
00:22:21,089 --> 00:22:21,599
Yeah.

378
00:22:22,650 --> 00:22:24,720
Well, I mean, I thought there
was still an opportunity. I

379
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,660
know, there were there were even
two, three years ago, a number

380
00:22:27,660 --> 00:22:33,510
of posts. There's obviously more
now, but I thought there was a

381
00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:36,690
huge potential in podcasting. I
just had fun working on it.

382
00:22:37,230 --> 00:22:41,100
Previously, in my in a previous
iteration for a different

383
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:46,230
service. Guys, I just I really,
I liked the podcasting landscape

384
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:49,050
I liked kind of who was involved
in it. I like the open nature of

385
00:22:49,050 --> 00:22:55,080
it. It just seemed like they
were pieces of like the original

386
00:22:55,140 --> 00:23:01,650
internet frontier still in
podcasting. And, yeah, it was a

387
00:23:01,650 --> 00:23:04,560
tough business, a fun, fun
project to work on. All the

388
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,830
customers are great, great to
work with. People seem really

389
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:12,000
excited about podcasting. And
yeah, I just, you know, had some

390
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,730
previous knowledge of it and
wanted to just build something

391
00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:18,930
up from scratch again, and no,
one of those developer pitches

392
00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:19,800
you got to scratch

393
00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:23,100
and just, you were big, you were
begging to get in what did you

394
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:23,340
see?

395
00:23:23,339 --> 00:23:28,919
Yeah, well, see, I started
podcast in 2012. And I've always

396
00:23:28,919 --> 00:23:33,629
been in software. So on the
product management side, and I

397
00:23:33,629 --> 00:23:36,779
used to have folks come to me
all the time, you know, between

398
00:23:36,779 --> 00:23:43,169
2012 2013 2014 developer saying,
Oh, you know, I got a great idea

399
00:23:43,169 --> 00:23:47,369
for podcasters. And I always
said, don't build that, because

400
00:23:49,289 --> 00:23:53,549
the podcast market back then,
was mostly di wires and

401
00:23:53,549 --> 00:23:56,759
hobbyists and, you know, people
that wanted to do things

402
00:23:56,759 --> 00:24:01,259
themselves, they didn't like
paying for things. And that this

403
00:24:01,259 --> 00:24:05,399
swit the the trend that I saw
developing that got me more

404
00:24:05,399 --> 00:24:10,739
excited, is you still had this
indie podcast scene. But

405
00:24:10,739 --> 00:24:14,999
increasingly, those folks were
okay with paying for posting and

406
00:24:14,999 --> 00:24:20,609
analytics and other things. But
then you also had just way more

407
00:24:20,609 --> 00:24:24,929
mindshare. So when I was in the
coffee shop, people weren't just

408
00:24:24,929 --> 00:24:27,809
talking about what apps they
were installing on their phone

409
00:24:27,809 --> 00:24:30,779
or what they were watching on
Netflix. They started you know,

410
00:24:30,779 --> 00:24:34,169
saying hey, I'm listening to
this new podcast, and it like

411
00:24:34,169 --> 00:24:37,559
when I heard it the first couple
times in a coffee shop. It made

412
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:40,979
me stop in my tracks like what
nor normals are talking about

413
00:24:40,979 --> 00:24:45,029
podcasts. Like they figured out
how to you know, find a podcast

414
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:49,019
app and subscribe subscribe to
an RSS feed like what is going

415
00:24:49,019 --> 00:24:55,139
on and so and, and all of these
kind of big cultural touchstones

416
00:24:55,499 --> 00:24:58,589
like cereal and you know, and
then everything that happened

417
00:24:58,589 --> 00:25:02,309
after cereal that you New York
Times publishing a podcasting op

418
00:25:02,309 --> 00:25:06,179
ed every single week, it just
felt like there's this

419
00:25:06,419 --> 00:25:11,399
burgeoning wave. And now and
then companies starting to

420
00:25:11,399 --> 00:25:16,649
invest in it right yet. branded
podcasts and, and even companies

421
00:25:16,649 --> 00:25:20,459
that I knew that like Basecamp,
which is a relatively small, you

422
00:25:20,459 --> 00:25:23,849
know, software company, they
hire two full time people and

423
00:25:23,849 --> 00:25:27,689
built a studio to have a little
podcast, you know, set up,

424
00:25:27,719 --> 00:25:32,039
right? That's, that's at least
$200,000 a year prop maybe even

425
00:25:32,039 --> 00:25:37,049
more, like, wow, if they're
willing to spend that much on,

426
00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:42,149
you know, hiring some
podcasters, then spending, you

427
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:45,029
know, $99 a month on podcast
hosting might not be a stretch

428
00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:45,389
for them.

429
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,260
So do you. What is your your
target client base? I mean, it

430
00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:53,610
seems like you're, you're
offering everything we take care

431
00:25:53,610 --> 00:25:56,310
of it, make sure that your
podcast is published on all the

432
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:59,880
platforms and you got your
status, that's still a big a big

433
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,610
draw for customers that the big
one yeah,

434
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,150
to be unlike at first we thought
our audience was going to be

435
00:26:06,150 --> 00:26:11,850
businesses. But it turns out
that there's like the big draw

436
00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:16,770
is people searching? How do I
start a podcast, or best podcast

437
00:26:16,770 --> 00:26:18,240
hosting? And

438
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:21,780
I see right here how to start a
podcast right on your menu use

439
00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:24,060
you slide little Seo? w.

440
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:26,100
Yeah,

441
00:26:26,099 --> 00:26:26,909
that's all Justin.

442
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,790
But, you know, there's there is
a lot of people who want that

443
00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:38,190
kind of help. And so they're
looking for a simple tool that

444
00:26:38,190 --> 00:26:41,610
people don't think about, like
most podcasters are not thinking

445
00:26:41,610 --> 00:26:44,040
about RSS, they're not thinking,
all they're thinking about is

446
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,960
how do I get my audio out into
the world? And whatever is the

447
00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:53,010
the easiest, or the most
friendly, or the most efficient

448
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:57,690
way to do that is what, that's
what they want. We have folks

449
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,650
switching from Ankur, which is a
free product that switched to us

450
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,600
just to get customer support.

451
00:27:05,550 --> 00:27:09,030
Yeah, it's a big one. I've heard
a lot about this. And people

452
00:27:09,030 --> 00:27:10,710
really like the customer
service.

453
00:27:11,159 --> 00:27:15,989
Yeah, yeah. And so I think we do
have a lot of businesses that

454
00:27:15,989 --> 00:27:18,689
sign up. And that's a great, you
know, that's, it's great to have

455
00:27:18,689 --> 00:27:22,889
those folks. But I think what
john and I really dig is the

456
00:27:22,919 --> 00:27:27,869
Indies, people just in their
basement, buy a microphone, and

457
00:27:28,049 --> 00:27:32,909
have something to say and want
to get it I like growing up, I

458
00:27:32,909 --> 00:27:38,009
always wanted to start my own
talk radio, you know, radio

459
00:27:38,009 --> 00:27:42,899
station. And I actually knew a
guy that bought a radio station.

460
00:27:42,929 --> 00:27:45,479
He was a friend of my dad's and
I, you know, I went up to him

461
00:27:45,479 --> 00:27:47,999
when I was a kid and said, How
do I do that? Like, how do I own

462
00:27:47,999 --> 00:27:51,629
my own station? And he was like,
well, it's millions of dollars.

463
00:27:51,629 --> 00:27:57,419
Justin. Are you are you can go
like serve coffee for years and

464
00:27:57,419 --> 00:28:01,649
years and maybe get on the
microphone. And the idea that

465
00:28:01,649 --> 00:28:07,889
now with, you know, a $99 USB
microphone, and then you know, a

466
00:28:07,889 --> 00:28:12,149
service like transistor, you can
have your own talk radio

467
00:28:12,239 --> 00:28:16,379
station. That's an attractive
idea to a lot of people.

468
00:28:17,730 --> 00:28:21,180
Yes, the and the non live nature
of it, I think makes it

469
00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:24,300
attainable for a lot of people,
they just say, Well, if I mess

470
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:27,930
up, I just go back and clean it
up later. And I don't have to

471
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,080
have you know, I don't have to
have the terror of having live

472
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,630
radio and that kind of thing
that will make you shut down

473
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,110
makes it a little bit more
accessible for the average human

474
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:39,900
to think that they can, you
know, pull that off and not be

475
00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:43,320
embarrassed about what the final
product looks like. Yeah, yeah.

476
00:28:43,380 --> 00:28:48,060
I think it's cool that he did
talking about it, podcasting,

477
00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:51,120
feeling like sort of early
internet days. I totally agree

478
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,080
with that. Because Yeah, it's
there's this I remember back,

479
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,160
oh, gosh, this is probably been
20 years ago now and are close

480
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,000
to it. And I was heavy writing a
lot of assembly language at the

481
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,810
time. And we're in one of the
one of the things were

482
00:29:06,810 --> 00:29:08,550
you in prison? What the hell
were you thinking?

483
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:15,000
It's even worse. It was on
Windows. On Windows. Yeah, using

484
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,460
the masm 32 packages. But they
one of the things that was so

485
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,460
interesting to me about that
whole thing, I think probably a

486
00:29:23,460 --> 00:29:26,670
lot of, you know, sysadmin
developer type people think this

487
00:29:26,670 --> 00:29:29,880
way is that you could understand
what you were doing like you

488
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,540
could one of the first things I
wrote was a podcast downloader

489
00:29:33,540 --> 00:29:37,260
and this podcasting was very,
extremely new at the time. And

490
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:41,370
it was parsing the RSS feed and
all that jazz. And you had to

491
00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:46,890
actually make the HTTP one, you
know, one dot one call it in,

492
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,100
you know, your your hand coding
the protocol

493
00:29:50,099 --> 00:29:51,599
doing this in assembly language.

494
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:56,220
Yeah, and it's in languages,
right? Yeah. And it's still got

495
00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:58,710
the code out of post. It is kind
of crazy, but you're doing

496
00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:03,120
you're making all the code He
calls and stuff. And it felt fun

497
00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:06,540
to actually be able to like,
understand the protocols as

498
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:10,770
they're being used. You know, in
now, today, your most

499
00:30:10,770 --> 00:30:15,570
development is so many layers
removed from the actual, you

500
00:30:15,570 --> 00:30:19,830
know, wire wire level protocols
and the actual, you know, low

501
00:30:19,860 --> 00:30:23,760
underlying technology that it
feels, you're just like, Oh, I

502
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,070
need to do this, I'll just go
get a library and plug it in,

503
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:28,950
and I'll just pay no, that's
fine. But then you never, you

504
00:30:28,950 --> 00:30:32,790
don't have that sort of thrill
of being able to kind of get in

505
00:30:32,790 --> 00:30:35,640
and really dig down deep and
understand something to do it on

506
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,100
a protocol level. But you still
have kind of had that in

507
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:41,790
podcasting. It's fine. You get
to parse the RSS, you get to do

508
00:30:41,790 --> 00:30:45,780
all these interesting coding
challenges. It's, it does feel

509
00:30:45,780 --> 00:30:46,530
like old internet.

510
00:30:46,770 --> 00:30:49,020
Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of
interesting things you can do

511
00:30:49,020 --> 00:30:54,060
around a very simple protocol.
Which RSS, which I really hope

512
00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:56,460
will stick around. I mean, this
has its limitations, obviously.

513
00:30:56,460 --> 00:30:56,700
And

514
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:59,910
you know, what I heard a lot of
a lot of over the past few days,

515
00:31:00,330 --> 00:31:03,930
people emailing, even saying,
Can I do video with this?

516
00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:07,890
Because YouTube is like, gonna,
I'm gonna take my channel down

517
00:31:07,890 --> 00:31:14,910
and like, yes, yes. All this
stuff works. It's there.

518
00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:19,620
Yeah, that's going to be an
interesting journey. And I've

519
00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:24,510
resisted doing video, but even a
platform comparison between

520
00:31:24,510 --> 00:31:29,760
YouTube and podcasting. And RSS
is, it's kind of having its

521
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:35,190
moment right now. Because we've
seen what the, the, you know,

522
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,770
the owned platform looks like
YouTube came in, they bought out

523
00:31:40,770 --> 00:31:44,820
a lot of indie video people at
the beginning, they captured all

524
00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:48,450
that market, and now they own
it. And, you know, for a while

525
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:51,960
creators, were happy to publish
on there, and have YouTube, pay

526
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,340
them add, you know, add, share,
or whatever. But once somebody

527
00:31:56,370 --> 00:32:01,920
owns the means of distribution.
So now that means of production

528
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,280
have been that's been
democratized, everybody now has

529
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,790
the ability to turn on a
microphone, or a camera, and

530
00:32:08,940 --> 00:32:12,300
create their own stuff. But now
what's being locked down is

531
00:32:12,300 --> 00:32:17,130
distribution. And, again, you
know, especially during the

532
00:32:17,130 --> 00:32:20,970
pandemic, some creators saw
their YouTube ad share, get cut,

533
00:32:21,330 --> 00:32:23,970
and you know, all sudden the
algorithm is no longer showing

534
00:32:23,970 --> 00:32:29,580
their stuff. And in podcasting,
with, with Spotify, we now have

535
00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:34,860
the same kind of risk is there's
this big platform that wants to

536
00:32:34,860 --> 00:32:40,290
be the YouTube of audio. And I
do think there's, this is kind

537
00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:44,940
of a pivotal moment in
podcasting, our podcast creators

538
00:32:45,270 --> 00:32:49,440
going to go the same ways. You
check YouTubers and be owned by

539
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,010
the platform? Or are they going
to keep their independence and

540
00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:56,220
figure out other ways of, you
know, making the money work?

541
00:32:56,910 --> 00:33:02,040
Well, that that is partially up
to you partially up to the app

542
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,390
developers and partially up to
us for and I'll take some of

543
00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:09,660
that responsibility to get the
word out there that there's an

544
00:33:09,660 --> 00:33:15,180
entire universe, we are making a
difference. There's been, we're

545
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:19,800
seeing the uptake, in not only
just apps, they're integrating

546
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:26,250
who see the see the value in it,
we'll see exactly how I think

547
00:33:26,250 --> 00:33:30,180
the experience is what it comes
down to. And that's why you've

548
00:33:30,180 --> 00:33:33,180
always seen people have their
favorite podcast app, because it

549
00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:36,810
has that one little feature they
love. And sure a lot of people

550
00:33:36,810 --> 00:33:39,660
like I just whatever Apple has
is fine. But once they

551
00:33:39,660 --> 00:33:42,480
introduced to that one extra
feature they like it could be

552
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,860
simple as a share. And features
is where we're gonna win

553
00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:50,100
initially. And money is where
we're definitely going to move

554
00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:54,690
ahead. Which brings me to
podcasting. 2.02 point out where

555
00:33:54,690 --> 00:33:59,070
you guys are, I think, as
integrated and compliant as

556
00:33:59,070 --> 00:34:02,520
possible at this point, am I
correct? in assuming Yeah,

557
00:34:02,790 --> 00:34:05,550
because you guys as transcript
transcripts, of course, the

558
00:34:05,550 --> 00:34:08,580
logtag funding chapters
soundbite

559
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,769
and we don't have we don't have
all that stuff. You don't have

560
00:34:10,769 --> 00:34:12,599
all of that. We only have two of
them

561
00:34:13,290 --> 00:34:14,670
locked in funding, whereas

562
00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:18,390
we're as compliant as we can be.
Technologically because we

563
00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:24,270
don't. Right now have support
for chapters. Shame on you.

564
00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:27,390
That that was Adam's way of
public shaming.

565
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:32,040
Actually, I was looking at new
podcast apps calm and it says

566
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,410
that you have all those
features. So I guess I was

567
00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:35,010
wrong. Yes.

568
00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:36,960
That's the way to light a fire
under arrest, I guess.

569
00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:40,860
Well, it's on the side. So you
better have you better had a

570
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:43,830
good luck.

571
00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:46,170
Good luck, by the way. I don't
know which site that is. Yeah.

572
00:34:46,170 --> 00:34:49,950
So we Yeah, we do support
locking and, and funding. And we

573
00:34:49,950 --> 00:34:53,850
do integrate with the podcast
index API directly so people can

574
00:34:53,850 --> 00:34:55,170
just submit with one click.

575
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,590
Very nice. And yet, what is your
roadmap look like? Do you think

576
00:34:58,590 --> 00:35:01,740
you'll be supporting chapters
And transcripts?

577
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:05,700
Yeah, I think so I mean,
transcripts. Yeah, we have to

578
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,030
build a new way for people to
upload those people often ask

579
00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:12,360
for auto transcription, which I
don't. I mean, we'll have to tie

580
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,490
into a different third party
service for that, if we do

581
00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:19,830
that think otter.ai may have the
may have an API that you can

582
00:35:19,830 --> 00:35:21,090
access for that. Okay.

583
00:35:21,810 --> 00:35:23,550
Yeah, it's it's one of those
things where we kind of want to

584
00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:25,890
do it right, instead of do it
fast.

585
00:35:26,370 --> 00:35:27,690
So what can we do to help?

586
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,160
I mean, you, you guys got to
keep blazing trail. That's the

587
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,920
whole point, just because just
because we're a few miles behind

588
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,170
you, that doesn't mean you
shouldn't keep blazing the

589
00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:37,560
trail,

590
00:35:37,740 --> 00:35:44,460
I guess maybe I mean it
differently. So I realize with

591
00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:51,450
my developer hat on, which is a
very nice paper, I realize what,

592
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,750
you know, when when chapters
comes out, and, you know, it's

593
00:35:54,750 --> 00:35:57,840
like, oh, and here it is, and
you just put this JSON to this

594
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,170
file over here. I realized that,
oh, wait a minute. That means

595
00:36:01,170 --> 00:36:04,140
you guys got to figure out a way
internally to have yet another

596
00:36:04,140 --> 00:36:09,420
file. That is that is hosted and
loaded and linked and cetera.

597
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,200
And I know that takes, you know,
that takes some thought and some

598
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,560
time to integrate that to have
it worked the right way. So yes.

599
00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:20,760
So when moving forward, as we
come up with stuff. Do you have

600
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,810
preferences from your end of the
ecosystem? Like, well, gee, if

601
00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:27,840
we could put it all in the RSS,
that would be better, because x,

602
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,230
y, and z? Or we'd rather have
all this stuff external? I mean,

603
00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:33,900
that's the kind of stuff I'm
looking for. How can we blaze

604
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:37,560
the trail and not leave just
ashes for you to just sweep?

605
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,960
I mean, I would personally
prefer it not to be the rssb

606
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,970
just because those things get
huge. I mean, if you stuffed the

607
00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:48,060
entire transcript into an RSS
feed, yeah, I would use that I'm

608
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:48,900
with you. Yeah.

609
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:52,650
Yeah, that's what all the hosts
are said. Yeah. Adding

610
00:36:52,650 --> 00:36:56,700
on adding on external things
like that to external URLs, I

611
00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:57,900
think is probably the way to go.

612
00:36:59,190 --> 00:37:03,570
Yes, this this was said by and I
was reading this and something

613
00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:09,300
that pod news headset had had in
their newsletter. And then think

614
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:14,340
Tom Ross, who posted this is a
quote from Dave's Rob. So Rob, I

615
00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:17,250
know he knows his name,
charitable and he said closed

616
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:19,980
versus open as Spotify expands
their suite of exclusive

617
00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:23,220
content. And others, like Amazon
and Apple enter the fray will

618
00:37:23,220 --> 00:37:26,820
begin to see more competition
between closed platforms and the

619
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:30,660
open RSS based ecosystem. I
believe that open open ecosystem

620
00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:33,450
can continue to thrive.
Competition is healthy after

621
00:37:33,450 --> 00:37:37,320
all, but the open ecosystem will
need to continue to innovate as

622
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,170
an industry to serve listeners,
creators and advertisers well,

623
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,800
and I think that like, I think
that's right, because my

624
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,930
response to that was, I mean, if
you have, if you have a podcast

625
00:37:49,140 --> 00:37:53,220
that has all, like, if you just
go ahead and think extrapolate

626
00:37:53,220 --> 00:37:56,610
out to the end of phase two, and
let's just say that we are of

627
00:37:56,610 --> 00:37:59,280
the namespace, and let's just
say that we have location in

628
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,320
there, we have person in there,
we have named seasons in there.

629
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,950
And we also have social media
links in there. If you

630
00:38:07,950 --> 00:38:10,410
extrapolate out to the end of
phase two, and you have

631
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,270
potentially 10, new tags that
give you all this extra stuff. I

632
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:19,140
mean, like that blows away any
closed platform, Spotify doesn't

633
00:38:19,140 --> 00:38:21,900
have all that stuff. Apple
podcast, doesn't have all that

634
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:25,560
stuff, just Stitcher. None of
them have that on their closed

635
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,160
platforms, that that open, that
paves the way for the open

636
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:33,930
ecosystem, to not just compete,
but to actually just bypass. I

637
00:38:33,930 --> 00:38:36,780
mean, like, go miles ahead of
any closed system that I know

638
00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:36,930
of.

639
00:38:37,470 --> 00:38:40,920
Mm hmm. And on that note, I
think where we can actually help

640
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,720
you is we were front lines,
we've got customers coming to us

641
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:49,980
every day that want to
accomplish things. And, you

642
00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:53,010
know, like, named seasons is one
of them. It's like, Why can I

643
00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:54,930
only choose a number? Oh, yeah,

644
00:38:54,930 --> 00:38:58,620
this is a big one for us, too.
And for NPR? Yeah, we're doing

645
00:38:58,620 --> 00:38:59,190
this I

646
00:38:59,370 --> 00:39:04,860
I'm listening to unfinished
right now. And it's unfinished,

647
00:39:04,860 --> 00:39:10,590
but it's that they're short
Creek season. But I just search

648
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:14,580
for that in a in an app. It's
like, which one is this is

649
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:17,940
they're stuffing it into the
episode title. It's just, it's

650
00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:22,770
not great. And so I think when,
when folks on the ground level,

651
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,790
like us, are interacting with
customers and real podcasters

652
00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:30,090
and they're saying, they're just
trying to figure out how to get

653
00:39:30,090 --> 00:39:34,080
things done. How come I can't
name a season? Well, that's not

654
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,030
possible right now. And to have
folks like you that are opening

655
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:42,510
up that possibility, you know,
that's a, that's a could be a

656
00:39:42,510 --> 00:39:46,290
big deal for us. It allows us to
build features that people want.

657
00:39:46,410 --> 00:39:49,950
Now how when so when you have
customers saying well, I want to

658
00:39:49,950 --> 00:39:54,030
be able to name it X, Y or Z and
then we have the and that'll be

659
00:39:54,030 --> 00:39:59,310
in phase two. We have the
seasons tag, a season tag, but

660
00:39:59,310 --> 00:40:04,200
that will be likely require one
of, you know, five or six

661
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,590
different apps that are truly
compliant with it. And I don't

662
00:40:07,590 --> 00:40:12,210
know. And Dave chime in if this
will break. If this will break

663
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,360
ordinate does not show up at
all, unlike the apple podcast

664
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,410
app, you know, so how do you can
you sell that to your clients by

665
00:40:19,410 --> 00:40:22,110
saying, well, it's new, and
here's the apps that do it. But

666
00:40:22,110 --> 00:40:24,300
it's not it's not the Apple App.

667
00:40:24,689 --> 00:40:28,259
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's
no, there's already this mess in

668
00:40:28,439 --> 00:40:31,709
in podcasting. So we're always
having to explain, you know,

669
00:40:31,709 --> 00:40:34,919
why, what, why can't I add a
private podcasting is huge for

670
00:40:34,919 --> 00:40:38,489
us. How come? I can't add it to
Spotify? Well, that's

671
00:40:38,489 --> 00:40:44,219
not the opposite of the
opposite. Yeah.

672
00:40:45,029 --> 00:40:47,699
It's a tricky, tricky thing,
too, when you're building out an

673
00:40:47,699 --> 00:40:50,129
interface for someone to even
manage their podcast with us,

674
00:40:50,129 --> 00:40:54,629
right? So you if we support
named seasons, but Apple doesn't

675
00:40:54,629 --> 00:40:59,189
support that, you did then have
to have like a different input

676
00:40:59,189 --> 00:41:02,759
for specially for Apple season
numbers. And then you have

677
00:41:02,759 --> 00:41:05,219
another iPad, or a named one.
And I'm working

678
00:41:05,220 --> 00:41:08,400
on that, by the way. That's one
of the I'm, I'm hopefully I'm

679
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,780
presenting the namespace to the
Apple podcast team in January.

680
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,960
Cool. So we'll see. Cool, man,

681
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:20,910
how can we help with that? Yeah.
Show show show up with the mob.

682
00:41:20,940 --> 00:41:23,940
Well show more podcasts that
have this in their feed. I mean,

683
00:41:23,940 --> 00:41:26,910
that's, that's really that's
really the way it's, it's a

684
00:41:26,910 --> 00:41:30,450
chicken in the egg. You know,
it's, it's, and so yeah. And my

685
00:41:30,450 --> 00:41:35,490
next question to you guys, would
be a little bit further down the

686
00:41:35,490 --> 00:41:39,810
road. Are you open to
integrating with other parties

687
00:41:39,810 --> 00:41:45,030
to who do like lightning nodes
specific stuff so that you can

688
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:47,580
offer that to your customers?
But it would be a third party

689
00:41:47,580 --> 00:41:49,890
that's doing that? Or is that
something you want to do

690
00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:53,550
yourself? Are you interested at
all when it comes to the real

691
00:41:53,550 --> 00:41:54,330
time? Again, totally

692
00:41:54,330 --> 00:42:01,200
honest with you? I don't know
what you're talking about. Maybe

693
00:42:01,230 --> 00:42:03,630
Hey, man, I looked at your
Wikipedia What the hell's wrong

694
00:42:03,630 --> 00:42:03,900
with you?

695
00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:06,360
Just say yes. Just say yes,
john.

696
00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:08,550
I'm sorry. Okay.

697
00:42:08,940 --> 00:42:10,710
We didn't I didn't even know
there was a lightning

698
00:42:10,740 --> 00:42:14,220
documentation until until 15
minutes? Certainly. Yes.

699
00:42:15,630 --> 00:42:20,190
Yes, well, you guys need to see
this because we have, there's a

700
00:42:20,580 --> 00:42:23,130
tag that an experimental tag
that will be in phase two,

701
00:42:23,130 --> 00:42:26,850
what's called the value block.
And in that block our payment

702
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,810
digital payment addresses for
Bitcoin but on the lightning

703
00:42:30,810 --> 00:42:33,750
network, which is kind of an off
chain, and you can stream it in

704
00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:37,350
real time. So at this moment,
while people are listening to

705
00:42:37,350 --> 00:42:40,110
the show people who are on the
Sphinx app, which is the only

706
00:42:40,110 --> 00:42:44,250
one that supports everything
right now, they're sending 100

707
00:42:44,250 --> 00:42:49,950
satoshis or less, perhaps, per
minute to Dave and I, because

708
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:53,220
we're the host of the show, we
produce it. But also, Spinks

709
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:58,560
takes 1% and 1% is going to the,
to the podcast index, and that's

710
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,720
infinitely dividable. So you can
say I want 5% of this episode to

711
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:06,930
go towards the guy who's doing
chapters for us. And so it's

712
00:43:06,930 --> 00:43:11,700
kind of a royalty system. It's a
real time payment system. And

713
00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:15,150
it's all built on the pledge
model, which is similar to

714
00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:17,910
donations except you don't have
to pay upfront you pay as you

715
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:21,870
go, you really you play, and
then you pay. So it's it works,

716
00:43:21,870 --> 00:43:25,770
whether you have money in your
wallet or not. So that's that

717
00:43:25,770 --> 00:43:29,190
we're really driving that so
that we can get some some real

718
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:34,410
revenue flowing amongst podcast,
app developers, but also much

719
00:43:34,410 --> 00:43:36,690
more reason for hosting
companies to be involved.

720
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:39,900
Because, you know, now when you
have streaming, streaming money,

721
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,990
you know, there's all kinds of
services that can be exchanged

722
00:43:42,990 --> 00:43:43,410
for that.

723
00:43:43,980 --> 00:43:48,150
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with stuff
like that, that really does have

724
00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:50,640
to come from customers,
customers have to be saying,

725
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,860
Hey, we want this this thing.
And that. So I think, I think

726
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,550
we, I mean, we, if it's if it's
relatively easy to implement,

727
00:43:59,550 --> 00:44:01,320
maybe we didn't. Anyway,

728
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,150
I will say that I mean, I think
the the funding, funding

729
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:11,940
donating whatever you want to
call it, pledging money to

730
00:44:11,970 --> 00:44:15,270
podcasters themselves, I think
that's to make this whole open

731
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:17,970
ecosystem work. That's gonna be
that's huge.

732
00:44:18,090 --> 00:44:21,360
We're gonna have that we're
gonna have to, because the

733
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:25,140
eventually some of these other
pay routes will just get, it'll

734
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:27,600
be too easy to cut it off, you
know, right.

735
00:44:27,750 --> 00:44:30,450
Hey, I just sent you some clips.
Adam. Yeah, I got him here.

736
00:44:30,900 --> 00:44:35,790
Okay, and the see the, the thing
that gets me about that, is that

737
00:44:35,910 --> 00:44:40,290
the, the straight now everything
is there's a push for streaming

738
00:44:40,290 --> 00:44:44,580
ads. Yeah. And they they're
streaming ad insertion or

739
00:44:44,580 --> 00:44:48,150
dynamic ad insertion. Mm hmm.
And I'm just

740
00:44:49,290 --> 00:44:53,430
such as it not work. Not working
for you today. Is it not so? So

741
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:57,150
the way I understand it, the way
I understand it, and maybe john

742
00:44:57,150 --> 00:45:00,300
and Justin can do a better job
is he got the streaming ad

743
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:05,700
insertion, which is within
Spotify universe only. And that

744
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:10,350
is, so you can't Fast Forward
has a whole bunch of hope. It's

745
00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:12,690
their bait, you're not
downloading a file and listening

746
00:45:12,690 --> 00:45:15,390
to it on the fly, you're being
streamed bits that they

747
00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:19,500
predetermine, and the dynamic ad
insertion is where they inserted

748
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:22,950
on the way out when you download
it, or as you're listening to it

749
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:27,990
downloading streaming to an app
outside of any closed ecosystem,

750
00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:29,820
I think that's what it is the
difference? Yeah.

751
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,680
Any of those? Are y'all doing
any of the dynamic ads?

752
00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:40,380
We had, we had mapped out what
we call dynamic content. We'd

753
00:45:40,380 --> 00:45:43,800
map this out early on maybe a
year and a half ago. And we

754
00:45:44,130 --> 00:45:47,280
ultimately shelved it partly
because we're a two person team.

755
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,900
And we have to weigh anything we
build, like, is this complexity

756
00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:56,430
worth it? Because we want the
app to stay relatively simple.

757
00:45:56,670 --> 00:45:59,130
And we still want to have a
relatively good life. We don't

758
00:45:59,130 --> 00:46:01,320
want to be maintaining a bunch
of complexity.

759
00:46:01,350 --> 00:46:05,490
Yes, streaming ads, and dynamic
dynamic ads and dynamic, dynamic

760
00:46:05,490 --> 00:46:09,090
content. It's such, it just
opens up such a can of worms,

761
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,480
for support. I mean, it would,
it would have been a large

762
00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:15,210
amount of work to get that to
work. You know, we

763
00:46:15,210 --> 00:46:18,270
interviewed Dan Benjamin from
Firestarter a few weeks ago. And

764
00:46:18,270 --> 00:46:22,650
he he said that the funny thing
is that his the customers that

765
00:46:22,650 --> 00:46:25,770
he has that are the ones
clamoring for dynamic ad

766
00:46:25,770 --> 00:46:28,200
insertion are all the ones that
are probably going to make very

767
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,310
little or no money from of

768
00:46:29,310 --> 00:46:29,700
course,

769
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,570
what we've we've seen this very
thing we've had people say, Hey,

770
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,740
we're leaving, because you don't
have dynamic ad insertion. And

771
00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:44,430
many times they come back 345
months later, because it even

772
00:46:44,430 --> 00:46:48,510
look at anchors ad network,
there's very few people making

773
00:46:48,540 --> 00:46:53,940
any money on on that network.
And it's just ads, there's a ton

774
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,590
of podcasters who want to run
ads, and there's not that much

775
00:46:58,590 --> 00:47:03,150
supply. So and and there's,
there's more big shows than

776
00:47:03,150 --> 00:47:07,080
ever. So I don't think ads for
the indie creator is the answer.

777
00:47:07,170 --> 00:47:11,250
That's really interesting.
Because Spotify has the inverse.

778
00:47:11,850 --> 00:47:15,690
They have jacked up all their
advertisers. And they can't they

779
00:47:15,690 --> 00:47:18,540
don't they can't convert enough
people to listen. So that's why

780
00:47:18,540 --> 00:47:21,750
they had to buy megaphone. Yeah,
they had to get it they need to

781
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:25,890
be selling their ads in dynamic
ad insertion because they can't

782
00:47:25,890 --> 00:47:26,880
fill the orders.

783
00:47:27,569 --> 00:47:30,029
Because there's a volume like
they need more. Yeah, they

784
00:47:30,029 --> 00:47:30,269
can't.

785
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,260
Well, just because you have 300
million people who use your app

786
00:47:34,260 --> 00:47:37,770
to listen to music doesn't mean
that bringing in Joe Rogan

787
00:47:37,770 --> 00:47:40,950
converts everybody to podcasts,
all of a sudden, they got they

788
00:47:40,950 --> 00:47:44,910
got a little trajectory there.
And yes, and I'm not so sure

789
00:47:44,910 --> 00:47:46,170
it's the same customer.

790
00:47:47,850 --> 00:47:52,650
I honestly don't understand why.
Like, if you look at SoundCloud,

791
00:47:52,650 --> 00:47:55,440
SoundCloud has been doing
dynamic ad insertion forever,

792
00:47:55,530 --> 00:47:59,070
for both music and podcasts.
They're losing tons of money

793
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:01,320
every year. like

794
00:48:02,550 --> 00:48:05,160
losing stuff. That's that's the
that's the business model.

795
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:09,300
Look at quarterly reports for
any of these companies that have

796
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:12,810
advertising. They're all down
right now. So it's not making

797
00:48:12,810 --> 00:48:16,410
the big megacorps any money.
It's not really making that many

798
00:48:16,410 --> 00:48:19,830
podcasters any money. I'm not
saying I think ad should be

799
00:48:19,830 --> 00:48:23,550
completely done away with but I
think host read ads are are

800
00:48:23,550 --> 00:48:27,510
better than dynamically inserted
ads. And there's other ways for

801
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:32,160
podcasters to make money. They
aren't dynamically inserted ads.

802
00:48:32,190 --> 00:48:35,280
Yeah. So Dave, you had some
example of some shitty ads is

803
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,900
that what we're gonna do here?
Because I like it.

804
00:48:37,710 --> 00:48:43,410
Oh, yeah. So the the play play
clip one now this is not this is

805
00:48:43,410 --> 00:48:45,750
not podcast is not for Spotify
or anything like that. This is

806
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:51,450
from YouTube. But it is this
video went around yesterday. And

807
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,890
somebody might texted it to me
and I was watching it. And it's

808
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,610
uh, you know, you had these
critical moments in the video

809
00:48:59,610 --> 00:49:02,820
where this guy's given testimony
in Congress. Right? He's he's

810
00:49:02,820 --> 00:49:06,960
about to say something. Bam, ad,
like halfway through a word.

811
00:49:07,020 --> 00:49:11,160
Play clip, one about hearing I
hope your testimony would be as

812
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:16,290
impactful today. Cory. Senator,
thank you and thank you for

813
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:17,430
pulling this here.

814
00:49:19,830 --> 00:49:23,310
US Attorney john Durham has
filed the first criminal charges

815
00:49:23,310 --> 00:49:24,180
investigation and

816
00:49:24,180 --> 00:49:26,940
yeah, it's interesting because I
think that that video was

817
00:49:26,940 --> 00:49:32,460
actually taken off of Facebook.
Facebook, was a Senate hearing

818
00:49:34,230 --> 00:49:36,930
was the immediate was like, hey,
screw this, we'll just put that

819
00:49:37,620 --> 00:49:40,050
you'll go away and we'll make
some money. Beautiful.

820
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,620
The best one, the best. One is
clip three that played out on

821
00:49:43,890 --> 00:49:45,570
August 27.

822
00:49:45,989 --> 00:49:50,639
I want to be clear. I am not
here as a politician or to

823
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:54,749
dramatists or sensationalizing
what I'm recommending. I'm going

824
00:49:54,749 --> 00:49:59,009
to be very clear and very
simple. All I ask Hey,

825
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,510
Have you ever seen those shots?

826
00:50:04,739 --> 00:50:06,359
That's fantastic. So the

827
00:50:07,230 --> 00:50:11,400
podcasters, who are clients who
are clamoring for dynamic ad

828
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:11,940
insertion?

829
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:15,990
Do you want your show to sound
like that? a horrible experience

830
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:19,380
for your customer reminds me so
much of early cable when I was

831
00:50:19,380 --> 00:50:23,220
at MTV in the mid to late 80s.
And, you know, Manhattan, it'd

832
00:50:23,220 --> 00:50:26,760
be channel, I don't know, 23 or
something, maybe a little

833
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:31,200
higher. But, but, you know, at
the time, it's like, people were

834
00:50:31,230 --> 00:50:33,780
laughing at cables. Like, that's
not real television, no one's

835
00:50:33,780 --> 00:50:38,190
gonna advertise on cable. And it
really was seen as just second

836
00:50:38,190 --> 00:50:43,500
rate dumb. And you'd get these
local ads that would be program,

837
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:46,590
which is at the time was, you
know, a guy in a room with

838
00:50:46,590 --> 00:50:50,640
pneumatic videotapes. And you
know, shoving them in and

839
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,160
hitting the machines and
switching. So you'd always see

840
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,820
like, half of a local car
dealership, and they'll be boom

841
00:50:56,820 --> 00:50:59,760
and go to a jewelry commercial,
boom, go back to something else,

842
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,050
there's a mess. And it still it
still has those problems.

843
00:51:04,140 --> 00:51:06,120
It doesn't seem terribly
intelligent. I mean, it seems

844
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,880
like there should be insertion
points for some of those

845
00:51:08,940 --> 00:51:12,990
commercials. It's weird that
they automatically choose a

846
00:51:12,990 --> 00:51:15,480
point and throw it in, in the
middle of someone's speech and

847
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:19,290
not too much tactical side of it
messes up chapters in chapter

848
00:51:19,290 --> 00:51:19,950
timing, and oh,

849
00:51:19,980 --> 00:51:23,550
yeah, that's the thing. This is
this is the sliding II, the

850
00:51:23,550 --> 00:51:27,300
slippery slope is first you
start with manually choosing

851
00:51:27,300 --> 00:51:30,180
your insertion points. And then
you're like, wow, the machines

852
00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:32,850
can just do this for us. Let's
just let the machines choose the

853
00:51:32,850 --> 00:51:36,240
insertion points. And then, you
know, now you just have machines

854
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:40,920
programming everything for you.
And yeah, it's not very, it's

855
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:41,670
not good radio,

856
00:51:42,330 --> 00:51:45,990
in the last three in the last
three months, like if this same

857
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:51,840
thing happens to to to the
podcast platforms, like Spotify.

858
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,720
And those guys, if the same
thing happens there. That

859
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:57,270
happened on YouTube in the last
three months, YouTube has become

860
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:58,380
almost unwatchable.

861
00:51:59,340 --> 00:52:02,760
Oh, yeah, it's three ads at the
beginning. It's, it's, it's

862
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:03,690
unstoppable.

863
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:08,070
It's all over. And it was quick
to me, like it went from being

864
00:52:08,070 --> 00:52:10,290
sort of tolerable to it was
almost like

865
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:14,670
overnight. Yeah. You see,
YouTube has the, I've looked at

866
00:52:14,670 --> 00:52:19,560
all of this, Dave. YouTube has
the opposite. They have. I mean,

867
00:52:19,590 --> 00:52:25,290
they have so much advertising,
they have the inventory, but

868
00:52:25,290 --> 00:52:28,620
they just double down. They were
doing political ads on

869
00:52:28,620 --> 00:52:32,880
children's shows. Which is,
which is which is basically

870
00:52:32,910 --> 00:52:35,580
ripping the advertiser off,
because it's not the target

871
00:52:35,580 --> 00:52:37,740
market. This

872
00:52:37,770 --> 00:52:40,920
Yeah, I mean, I see my daughter,
my 10 year old, she'll watch.

873
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,640
Like, those YouTubers that play
video games, she'll watch like

874
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,550
a, it's totally some kids video
game. And she's sitting there

875
00:52:47,550 --> 00:52:50,610
watching it. And it's obvious
that the target demographic for

876
00:52:50,610 --> 00:52:54,990
this thing is like a 12 year
old. And they're in they'll

877
00:52:54,990 --> 00:53:00,270
throw up a, like some kind of
pharmaceutical ad. And what a

878
00:53:00,270 --> 00:53:01,650
waste of money. The bottom

879
00:53:01,650 --> 00:53:05,280
line is that if you don't
control the distribution, you

880
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,280
can't really control the
advertising and take it from me,

881
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,340
I, I started one of the first
podcast networks I saw that was

882
00:53:11,340 --> 00:53:14,700
not possible to do, unless
you're going to just create

883
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,960
junk. There's a whole lot of a
whole lot of problems that comes

884
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,320
along with it. And and we're
trying to keep this open in

885
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,870
this, that's the whole point is
to have it open and just not

886
00:53:24,870 --> 00:53:28,380
really appropriate for the
typical programmatic ads that

887
00:53:28,380 --> 00:53:29,850
they're trying to shoehorn it
into.

888
00:53:30,540 --> 00:53:34,440
Yeah, I think the for the
podcasters, especially folks

889
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,610
just starting out. I mean,
again, we see a lot of patterns

890
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,460
with people signing up, Hey, why
are you signing up? And you

891
00:53:41,460 --> 00:53:44,610
know, some people just want to
try out a show and whatever, but

892
00:53:44,610 --> 00:53:47,310
a lot of people are trying to
start a business, they're trying

893
00:53:47,310 --> 00:53:51,690
to earn some money. And, and,
you know, like, right, in the

894
00:53:51,690 --> 00:53:56,820
United States, I think, in 2020,
there was three times more

895
00:53:56,820 --> 00:54:00,630
businesses started because of
the pandemic, like people are

896
00:54:00,660 --> 00:54:05,100
hungry, kind of metaphorically.
And, sure, sure. And, and so

897
00:54:05,130 --> 00:54:08,820
the, and I think, I mean, we can
be cynical about that and say,

898
00:54:08,820 --> 00:54:12,450
Wow, they're just never going to
make the money. Why even try, I

899
00:54:12,450 --> 00:54:18,990
think the attraction to dynamic
ad insertion, and anchor, and,

900
00:54:19,020 --> 00:54:22,260
you know, these things that
offer the the opportunity for

901
00:54:22,260 --> 00:54:25,620
money, like the idea of although
there could be some money is, is

902
00:54:25,620 --> 00:54:30,150
pretty powerful. And what we
what folks need to see is that

903
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:35,430
there are other ways of earning
revenue. And, I mean, you guys

904
00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:37,110
are talking about lightning
again, which I have, I don't

905
00:54:37,110 --> 00:54:42,840
really understand but like john
and i have a very simple kind of

906
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:48,600
monthly supporter program for
our podcast. And it was

907
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,690
basically a show about us
building a software business.

908
00:54:51,930 --> 00:54:53,610
It's, it's, it's,

909
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:55,050
is that the SAS podcast?

910
00:54:55,140 --> 00:54:59,520
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of
like branded content and people

911
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:05,460
were Excited to support us?
monthly? Exactly. Oh, yeah. Oh,

912
00:55:05,460 --> 00:55:08,700
yeah, no, this is and there was
moments where the monthly

913
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:11,880
support was making more than the
software. So

914
00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:16,740
so so I'll give you I'll give
you my pitch. When when it comes

915
00:55:16,740 --> 00:55:19,920
to podcast listening. So with
the no agenda show, we've

916
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,510
converted between three and 4%
of the entire audience to donate

917
00:55:24,510 --> 00:55:30,300
money. Hmm. IAB numbers, 100
million Americans listen to a

918
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:34,830
podcast regularly average one
hour per day, I think we can

919
00:55:34,830 --> 00:55:39,090
convert 1% of that 100 million
to give money to a podcast. In

920
00:55:39,090 --> 00:55:42,870
fact, a large percentage of that
1% probably already does it

921
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:46,290
through PayPal, Patreon. Other
ways.

922
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:47,100
Mm hmm.

923
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,120
If you value and this is where
the pitch gets fun, if you value

924
00:55:51,630 --> 00:55:58,680
that hour at $1, and everyone's
using an app that will send in

925
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,460
increments $1 an hour to the
podcast or listening to that's a

926
00:56:02,460 --> 00:56:05,520
million dollars a day now that
is flowing through podcasting.

927
00:56:06,210 --> 00:56:08,040
Yeah, I mean, that's a great
dream. And that's

928
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:09,180
just the bare minimum.

929
00:56:09,390 --> 00:56:11,340
The problem with your pitch,
though, is that you're gonna

930
00:56:11,340 --> 00:56:16,170
have to get those 100 million
people on some sort of app and

931
00:56:16,170 --> 00:56:19,680
understanding No, no, only one
machine, only 1 million, I

932
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,420
don't need 100 million, I need 1
million.

933
00:56:21,660 --> 00:56:25,020
That's true. I mean, well, I
guess it all depends on how, how

934
00:56:25,020 --> 00:56:30,180
it funnels down. If you've got,
if you've got a if you're saying

935
00:56:30,180 --> 00:56:33,420
that one in 10 people are
willing to donate, are you

936
00:56:33,420 --> 00:56:38,430
saying one in 10 are willing to
donate but are also like going

937
00:56:38,430 --> 00:56:39,930
to have some sort of blockchain?

938
00:56:40,469 --> 00:56:43,679
just it just a different app,
just a different app? And you

939
00:56:43,679 --> 00:56:46,949
can put money into the app? It's
it's not. It's not anything

940
00:56:46,949 --> 00:56:48,929
funky? It's just an app? Yeah,
it's nothing. It's not.

941
00:56:49,410 --> 00:56:51,840
It doesn't, it doesn't
necessarily, it could just be

942
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,040
pre loading it in some way. Some
sort of tokens.

943
00:56:56,700 --> 00:57:00,150
You can load it with money out,
you can load it with your credit

944
00:57:00,150 --> 00:57:02,790
card. It's literally that
simple. Yeah, I

945
00:57:02,790 --> 00:57:05,760
think that that that's probably
more palatable. Because the way

946
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,990
people pay for pay for Patreon
right now, is I think they go

947
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:13,230
well, you know, I could probably
spend about 40 $45 a month on

948
00:57:13,230 --> 00:57:16,050
this. And then they kind of
divvy it up. They're like, Okay,

949
00:57:16,050 --> 00:57:16,680
guys, personally,

950
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:20,820
this is exactly the same in
reverse, where and I believe

951
00:57:20,820 --> 00:57:25,290
there will be apps that you buy
with $25 already on it. Oh,

952
00:57:25,290 --> 00:57:28,830
yeah. And then anything, you
listen to the payments

953
00:57:28,830 --> 00:57:32,160
automatic, and you can value you
so like, Oh, I want this to be

954
00:57:32,430 --> 00:57:36,600
like $2 a minute. Yeah, it was
150 cents a minute, you can set

955
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,050
that individually, all you have
to do is, is either purchase a

956
00:57:40,050 --> 00:57:44,160
pre loaded app, which you can
then top up or get the app and

957
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,840
then either buy with a credit
card or if you have Bitcoin, you

958
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:49,500
can put it in?

959
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:54,510
Yeah, you know, the interesting
thing is, in consumer

960
00:57:54,510 --> 00:57:58,860
psychology, is it feels like
consumers need some sort of

961
00:57:59,580 --> 00:58:04,530
brand space or some sort of
mental space in their head in

962
00:58:04,530 --> 00:58:09,120
order to justify the the
payment. So as an example, like

963
00:58:09,150 --> 00:58:11,970
before, if I came to you guys
and said, Hey, I'm thinking

964
00:58:11,970 --> 00:58:16,230
about building a, you know,
consumer product, and I want you

965
00:58:16,230 --> 00:58:20,100
to pay me $100 before I build
it, and I'm going to go to a

966
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:23,790
bunch of people do this, folks
would be like, now like that.

967
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,270
That doesn't, that doesn't
excite me. But as soon as you

968
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:32,520
have Kickstarter as a thing, it
becomes a space in your head of

969
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,960
like, Oh, well, this is a thing.
Like, people do this. And so

970
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,030
then it's like all support a
Kickstarter, that becomes

971
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:44,070
normalized. Or Patreon, I want
you to donate to me monthly. How

972
00:58:44,070 --> 00:58:47,160
many people in early blogs and
podcasts tried that and it

973
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,060
didn't work? And then all of a
sudden, you have this Patreon

974
00:58:51,150 --> 00:58:55,560
kind of space, and habit, or
whatever it is. And people are

975
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:56,610
like, Oh, yeah, I'll do that.

976
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:02,070
Okay, so I'll address that. One,
the donation model has been

977
00:59:02,070 --> 00:59:05,700
working for a long time, or what
we call the value for value

978
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:12,690
model. With just PayPal, people
are lazy. So Patreon took away a

979
00:59:12,690 --> 00:59:15,600
lot of the issues for people who
are lazy and don't want to do

980
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,350
administration, which is really
software as a service is very,

981
00:59:19,350 --> 00:59:25,290
very good idea. Please
understand that Patreon has

982
00:59:25,290 --> 00:59:29,850
canceled lots of people. So you
know, Patreon is not the end all

983
00:59:29,850 --> 00:59:33,990
be all because they literally
have canceled people from their

984
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:40,140
accounts. The beauty of
podcasting is that it is its own

985
00:59:40,140 --> 00:59:45,180
marketing machine. So once
there's an app that can scale,

986
00:59:45,180 --> 00:59:49,200
so Spinks app does not scale for
the purpose of podcasting the

987
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:54,450
way I'm thinking of it. Yeah.
When I say on no agenda, if I

988
00:59:54,450 --> 00:59:58,290
say hey, check this out. I can
guarantee you I'll have 10,000

989
00:59:58,290 --> 01:00:00,510
people using the app tomorrow
and then It'll end they'll

990
01:00:00,510 --> 01:00:03,960
figure out how to put money in
it. And then when that happens,

991
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,190
they'll they will communicate
with the other podcasters they

992
01:00:08,190 --> 01:00:12,600
listen to, and say, Hey, you
know, you can make money out,

993
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:15,120
you can get money while I'm
listening to your podcast, why

994
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,480
don't you put this value block
into your feed or go to

995
01:00:18,630 --> 01:00:22,410
transistor? And they have it all
set for you? Yeah, that's,

996
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,000
that's how the rollout will
work.

997
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,620
Yeah, and is, it just seems I
agree that that could that could

998
01:00:28,620 --> 01:00:32,520
possibly work. The, the thing
I'm just noticing is that

999
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:37,050
there's this weird thing with
consumer behavior of, like, it's

1000
01:00:37,050 --> 01:00:44,520
just weird to me that at scale,
like Patreon, kind of built

1001
01:00:44,700 --> 01:00:48,510
monthly donations at scale, they
gave it a name and a space. And

1002
01:00:48,510 --> 01:00:51,870
it happened before. But once
there was a name, and there's

1003
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,780
alternatives to Patreon, right?
There's member fall, there's all

1004
01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:58,170
sorts of other things. But
people have their little

1005
01:00:58,170 --> 01:01:01,560
Patreon, like wallet, you know,
it's like, this is my little,

1006
01:01:01,590 --> 01:01:05,010
this is a little stash for
Patreon. And they've created

1007
01:01:05,010 --> 01:01:10,260
space in their life for that
thing. And that's kind of my

1008
01:01:10,290 --> 01:01:14,490
dream for whatever unit like
that the donation namespace that

1009
01:01:14,490 --> 01:01:18,030
you're talking about. If there
was a maybe it's called, or it's

1010
01:01:18,030 --> 01:01:21,720
called, it's called the podcast,
wallet, podcast. Well, maybe

1011
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:28,200
that's it. As long as it's not,
as in some sort of mimetic way.

1012
01:01:29,460 --> 01:01:34,290
Listeners adopt at scale this
idea of, Oh, yeah, like normal

1013
01:01:34,290 --> 01:01:37,680
people, like me have a podcast
wallet that I put money in every

1014
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,650
month, and support the shows I
love. Like that's a normal

1015
01:01:40,650 --> 01:01:45,180
thing. Everybody's doing it. And
that's the that seems to always

1016
01:01:45,180 --> 01:01:51,660
be the the tricky part is how do
you get this to scale? And part

1017
01:01:51,660 --> 01:01:55,860
of it might be everyone
broadcasting about it. Although,

1018
01:01:56,250 --> 01:01:58,920
you know, sometimes that doesn't
work. I don't know what all the

1019
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,740
pieces are. It's there's a bunch
of things that have to come

1020
01:02:01,740 --> 01:02:05,940
together for it to work. So we
have a test environment with

1021
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,670
just, I think, maybe five
podcasts

1022
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:13,980
as nine nine.

1023
01:02:14,130 --> 01:02:20,490
Yeah. And how many people? Do
you think that are? 50? Yeah. So

1024
01:02:20,490 --> 01:02:23,820
what are we sent through in one
month? $1,000 worth of value was

1025
01:02:23,820 --> 01:02:27,690
running through these shows?
Yeah. Yeah. And that's just

1026
01:02:27,690 --> 01:02:31,320
that's just the test group. I
mean, it it's, this is this is

1027
01:02:32,340 --> 01:02:35,580
in the station getting ready to
go. I mean, once once we have a

1028
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:40,290
an app that that is outbound on
the sending part was just a

1029
01:02:40,290 --> 01:02:44,640
technicality. Mm hmm. I think
it's going to go pretty quick.

1030
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:50,790
It's not something that is it's
not something that's easy. For

1031
01:02:50,820 --> 01:02:53,670
me, as far as you know, like,
there's been a lot of plumbing

1032
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:56,760
that's gone into, but then I
think I see what you're saying.

1033
01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:01,350
Justin, I think you're, you're
saying that there's a it's more

1034
01:03:01,350 --> 01:03:06,210
like a there's a space for not
really a brand, but like a

1035
01:03:06,660 --> 01:03:09,240
concept. Word whether

1036
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:12,300
Patreon is a concept, that's
totally a concept that they

1037
01:03:12,300 --> 01:03:14,070
become the Xerox of donation, I

1038
01:03:14,070 --> 01:03:17,850
completely agree. Yeah, it's
mostly mostly a cultural issue.

1039
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:22,230
Sure. How do you how do you get
exactly how do you get the

1040
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:23,880
culture to okay with

1041
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:28,650
the culture to me is cashapp.
This is this is your your next

1042
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:30,780
if not your current podcast?
listener?

1043
01:03:31,380 --> 01:03:32,520
Venmo cash app.

1044
01:03:32,550 --> 01:03:37,230
Yeah, yeah. Venmo cash, the cash
app does does Bitcoin, you can

1045
01:03:37,230 --> 01:03:40,740
send Bitcoin, you can load up
your podcast wallet with cash

1046
01:03:40,740 --> 01:03:44,460
app. Even better if cash app had
a button that said, Here's your

1047
01:03:44,460 --> 01:03:47,400
podcast. No. Yeah, they could do
that tomorrow.

1048
01:03:48,450 --> 01:03:52,530
Yeah. How many of yours? How
many of yours customers do you

1049
01:03:52,530 --> 01:03:57,960
think are trying to hurt our
podcasting? Just because they,

1050
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,860
right, just just just for fun,
and versus how many or do you

1051
01:04:01,860 --> 01:04:03,240
think are like trying to make
money?

1052
01:04:03,780 --> 01:04:08,250
Oh, man. I mean, I think I don't
think any, any of the indie

1053
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:13,530
shows would turn down somebody
supporting their show, like I

1054
01:04:13,740 --> 01:04:20,310
but actively seeking it. I mean,
qualitatively, maybe 25 30%.

1055
01:04:20,759 --> 01:04:23,429
That makes me happy. That makes
me happy to hear because I'm

1056
01:04:23,789 --> 01:04:27,989
like, you want podcast. We all
want podcasting to be an

1057
01:04:27,989 --> 01:04:31,349
ecosystem. That's monetizable.
And people can make money from

1058
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:33,839
it. But then, but what one of
the things that makes it

1059
01:04:33,839 --> 01:04:37,379
beautiful is that there's also
this very large percent of

1060
01:04:37,379 --> 01:04:40,049
people who podcast just for just
because they enjoy it, and it's

1061
01:04:40,049 --> 01:04:43,559
fun, and they really don't ever
care about making money. Yeah,

1062
01:04:43,650 --> 01:04:49,110
yeah, I agree. And it's one of
the reasons like we we have a

1063
01:04:49,110 --> 01:04:52,350
pot, this, you pay a
subscription, but you can start

1064
01:04:52,350 --> 01:04:55,710
multiple shows on a
subscription.

1065
01:04:55,740 --> 01:04:56,580
Oh, that's nice.

1066
01:04:56,910 --> 01:05:00,150
And so the whole idea was once I
started podcasting, I was like,

1067
01:05:00,150 --> 01:05:04,440
Whoa, I want to I want to sunset
this show and start something

1068
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:08,070
else I want to, I want to create
a five episode series, and then

1069
01:05:08,100 --> 01:05:11,820
to have to go in and pay every
time I wanted to flex my

1070
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:17,220
creativity was like, I'm just
not, you know. So I, yeah,

1071
01:05:17,220 --> 01:05:20,880
there's a lot of people that
just do it for fun. And I mean,

1072
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,430
those are our favorite
customers, the people that you

1073
01:05:23,430 --> 01:05:25,890
know, are are just like the
people that are actually less

1074
01:05:25,890 --> 01:05:30,240
fun are the people that are
really trying to optimize? Yes,

1075
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:34,890
like, john, john sometimes gets,
you know, folks that are like,

1076
01:05:34,890 --> 01:05:39,960
How come? How come? My download
stats on transistor are two off

1077
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,240
what I'm seeing in apple? Yeah,
podcast.

1078
01:05:44,850 --> 01:05:48,360
listener from Denmark, but
they're not showing up? I don't

1079
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,180
know how to track that one down.
Exactly. But

1080
01:05:51,390 --> 01:05:55,170
yeah, there's a whole episode of
buzz buzz cast recently when

1081
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:59,580
those guys were talking about
some stats that all sudden

1082
01:05:59,580 --> 01:06:02,550
showed up from like, some
obscure town in Washington. Oh,

1083
01:06:02,550 --> 01:06:02,820
yeah.

1084
01:06:02,820 --> 01:06:05,880
What was the reason behind that
was some policy server so

1085
01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:09,990
he was like a something or, or
maybe some sort of like God, IP

1086
01:06:10,410 --> 01:06:13,350
address to like geolocation
errors or something like that.

1087
01:06:13,590 --> 01:06:16,680
But it's like, people get so
worked up about oh, my God, I

1088
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:17,610
had 100 listeners,

1089
01:06:17,940 --> 01:06:25,920
my favorite story, when this is
in 1994, or five, somewhere

1090
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,190
around there, and I built my
company was building Planet

1091
01:06:29,190 --> 01:06:34,320
reebok.com for Reebok. And back
then, you know, stats are you

1092
01:06:34,650 --> 01:06:37,890
would now have stats, we'll do
some kind of grep the log for

1093
01:06:37,890 --> 01:06:43,290
you. And somehow that God, I'm
not kidding. Somehow that,

1094
01:06:43,860 --> 01:06:48,690
excuse me, that got communicated
through an account, person to

1095
01:06:49,350 --> 01:06:52,860
the client. And the client was
like, holy crap, crap, we got

1096
01:06:52,860 --> 01:06:57,060
like 5 million people looking at
us this past month, of course,

1097
01:06:57,060 --> 01:07:00,750
these were hits. These were
server entries. You know, like

1098
01:07:00,750 --> 01:07:04,050
every image on the page,
everything was a was a log

1099
01:07:04,050 --> 01:07:08,010
entry. And then you got stuck.
It's like, holy crap, how do we

1100
01:07:08,010 --> 01:07:11,190
tell this person was probably a
fraction of that. And we're

1101
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:13,200
like, fuck it, let them think
whatever they did.

1102
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,440
That was the golden age of the
web. I hit count.

1103
01:07:20,940 --> 01:07:22,830
All you needed, you just needed
a counter.

1104
01:07:24,030 --> 01:07:25,890
We miss you. It is frustrating.

1105
01:07:26,100 --> 01:07:28,290
On the one hand, like I get it,
I mean, it's, you know, they're,

1106
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,350
they're small time podcasters.
They just want they want an

1107
01:07:31,350 --> 01:07:32,490
audience. And they want to know
what

1108
01:07:32,490 --> 01:07:35,340
everybody wants the feedback.
And this is, this is why I'm

1109
01:07:35,340 --> 01:07:40,740
pushing so hard. Here, where
podcasts and gets his ass

1110
01:07:40,740 --> 01:07:45,840
kicked, is in the real time
comments that people I mean, do

1111
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:50,940
on YouTube, when so the one is
streaming live. And even if you

1112
01:07:50,940 --> 01:07:54,840
go back, you see the chat scroll
by you know, of what, what past.

1113
01:07:56,460 --> 01:08:00,750
But really just the comments
itself is is a huge feature of

1114
01:08:00,750 --> 01:08:04,950
what YouTube offers. And you
know, this idea of super, super

1115
01:08:04,950 --> 01:08:08,790
chats, you know, where I throw
you five bucks, or 10 bucks, all

1116
01:08:08,790 --> 01:08:13,200
of that. And all of that can be
done with the technology that

1117
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,750
we're looking at and
implementing. And that's where

1118
01:08:15,750 --> 01:08:19,620
it has to come from, because and
I think that that is just the

1119
01:08:19,620 --> 01:08:22,740
idea that you have almost like
the hearts being thrown at you

1120
01:08:22,740 --> 01:08:27,060
in a in a periscope, or
Instagram Live. That's the kind

1121
01:08:27,060 --> 01:08:32,010
of stuff that is that audiences
thrive on. That's how they can

1122
01:08:32,010 --> 01:08:34,680
participate, be a part of it.
And

1123
01:08:36,300 --> 01:08:40,620
all the big podcasts have chat
rooms. Sure. I mean, sure does.

1124
01:08:41,430 --> 01:08:44,820
Take me know, once you get to a
certain size, you know, they'll

1125
01:08:44,820 --> 01:08:48,450
want chat rooms because
everybody in this world

1126
01:08:48,930 --> 01:08:53,730
would love to have every single
podcast app that I used to just

1127
01:08:53,730 --> 01:08:58,260
log into our IRC chat room,
boom, just sit on the app and

1128
01:08:58,290 --> 01:09:01,440
and troll along while you're
listening with other people. And

1129
01:09:01,440 --> 01:09:05,160
you know, even better if it's
synchronized, but I see that

1130
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:07,710
experience we've we've been
experiencing it for a couple

1131
01:09:07,710 --> 01:09:09,840
months now with the Sphinx chat.
It's fun.

1132
01:09:10,500 --> 01:09:11,190
Yeah,

1133
01:09:11,579 --> 01:09:12,509
it really is.

1134
01:09:13,980 --> 01:09:16,140
Think the difference though
between podcasting and obviously

1135
01:09:16,140 --> 01:09:19,140
YouTube is you don't your
eyeballs are not a thing all the

1136
01:09:19,140 --> 01:09:21,690
time right like my phones in my
pocket and I'm walking around

1137
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:25,830
Yeah, but it's it I mean even
audio people will do this on

1138
01:09:25,830 --> 01:09:30,270
YouTube just an audio show just
crazy. How how deeply ingrained

1139
01:09:30,270 --> 01:09:34,410
that is. Here's a question
though. are you guys looking at

1140
01:09:34,500 --> 01:09:38,220
some different types of
compression etc. If for people

1141
01:09:38,220 --> 01:09:41,730
who want to do video podcast
because obviously the problem

1142
01:09:41,730 --> 01:09:45,150
with video podcasts is file
size, transfer costs, etc.

1143
01:09:45,539 --> 01:09:46,049
Yeah. Have

1144
01:09:46,050 --> 01:09:46,920
you been looking at that?

1145
01:09:47,250 --> 01:09:49,410
We haven't yet gonna take this.
Yeah,

1146
01:09:49,470 --> 01:09:51,690
yeah, we haven't yet. I mean,
there's, yeah, there's a number

1147
01:09:51,690 --> 01:09:52,770
of ways to do it. But

1148
01:09:53,820 --> 01:09:56,640
I mean, right now is the time
and people are looking for an

1149
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:57,390
alternative.

1150
01:09:57,989 --> 01:10:03,299
Yeah, yeah. The end of the day.
The uproar of them removing all

1151
01:10:03,299 --> 01:10:06,239
the Joe Rogan videos off YouTube
has been huge, especially

1152
01:10:06,420 --> 01:10:07,260
in comments.

1153
01:10:07,739 --> 01:10:11,999
Yeah, yeah. And even you think
about going back to something,

1154
01:10:12,029 --> 01:10:16,949
you're saying, Adam, if I could
tap my air pods, when somebody

1155
01:10:16,949 --> 01:10:20,249
says something that I like, and
it and it rings the metaphorical

1156
01:10:20,249 --> 01:10:23,609
Bell, and gives them a little
donation or a little feedback or

1157
01:10:23,609 --> 01:10:27,359
something, that would that would
be an incredible audio

1158
01:10:27,359 --> 01:10:31,679
experience. And audio first,
right? I'm walking around air

1159
01:10:31,679 --> 01:10:35,549
pods are on. And there's a way
to, of course, right, Apple

1160
01:10:35,549 --> 01:10:38,849
would have to agree to this. But
there's a way of me interacting

1161
01:10:38,849 --> 01:10:42,869
with, hey, let me ring the bell
right now. And give them some

1162
01:10:42,869 --> 01:10:46,259
feedback. Like I like that joke,
or that was a good point for

1163
01:10:46,259 --> 01:10:46,409
Yeah,

1164
01:10:46,410 --> 01:10:48,960
we haven't spent a lot of money.
Yeah, we have this actually,

1165
01:10:49,380 --> 01:10:52,980
it's integrated already is
called a boost. So you can boost

1166
01:10:52,980 --> 01:10:56,430
in this amount of satoshis.
Which by itself is, is part of

1167
01:10:56,430 --> 01:10:58,800
the game is you know, come up
with a cool number, like I'll

1168
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:05,520
boost 404 Dave, I think is doing
133 or something like that. And

1169
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:09,540
then as a podcaster we go back,
you can, you know, see all the

1170
01:11:09,540 --> 01:11:12,270
boosts on the timeline, you can
scroll through it and see where

1171
01:11:12,270 --> 01:11:14,550
people were, as you would say,
we're ringing the bell.

1172
01:11:14,850 --> 01:11:16,440
Yeah, I love that idea.

1173
01:11:17,610 --> 01:11:19,950
Maybe listening and all of a
sudden, you'll have like this

1174
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:23,160
string of that come through, and
you're like, Oh, I don't know

1175
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,860
what just happened. But
something exact somebody said

1176
01:11:25,860 --> 01:11:27,720
something. cool idea. I

1177
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,450
mean, I I'll have to look in and
kind of read up on what you guys

1178
01:11:30,450 --> 01:11:33,420
have been doing. There's a lot
of seems like there's a lot of

1179
01:11:33,420 --> 01:11:34,770
pieces that need to get, we

1180
01:11:34,770 --> 01:11:36,900
got to get you in the test
group. So you can gather

1181
01:11:37,860 --> 01:11:41,280
as long as long as whatever ends
up being as easy to use for

1182
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:44,910
customers and casters and
platforms at least.

1183
01:11:45,540 --> 01:11:47,760
That's your job. We got all the
complicated.

1184
01:11:51,090 --> 01:11:51,930
I have fun, john.

1185
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:57,750
really put that somewhere on our
shoulders.

1186
01:11:59,910 --> 01:12:03,420
What What do you think y'all
will? What is the next part of

1187
01:12:03,420 --> 01:12:06,240
the namespace that y'all think
you will work on?

1188
01:12:07,470 --> 01:12:10,920
I mean, I think having a spot
for people to upload transcripts

1189
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:14,160
is that's that's a natural one.
People have wanted that for a

1190
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:19,650
while. So yeah, I think
transcripts is and I don't think

1191
01:12:19,650 --> 01:12:22,500
it's that hard. Even if we just
started with like, you can

1192
01:12:22,500 --> 01:12:25,230
upload an SRT file or something
like that. Yeah,

1193
01:12:25,230 --> 01:12:27,510
you know, let him get away with
saying what's hard and what's

1194
01:12:27,510 --> 01:12:30,120
not. Right?

1195
01:12:31,890 --> 01:12:33,120
How hard can it be?

1196
01:12:33,210 --> 01:12:37,230
Yeah, you just copy and paste of
like texts? Yeah, probably

1197
01:12:37,230 --> 01:12:39,780
transcripts. I mean, chapters
are a little we don't support

1198
01:12:39,780 --> 01:12:43,410
those directly. I mean, those
are tough, because it does tie

1199
01:12:43,410 --> 01:12:46,800
into the actual mp3, the
chapters themselves the chapter

1200
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:47,340
tags.

1201
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:51,660
Now, not in this not we are we
have different chapters now.

1202
01:12:51,930 --> 01:12:55,260
Okay, yeah, it's a JSON file.
It's an external JSON file, and

1203
01:12:55,260 --> 01:12:58,230
you just you just put an captors
element in there, and then a URL

1204
01:12:58,230 --> 01:12:59,490
to the JSON file, and you're
done.

1205
01:12:59,489 --> 01:13:02,939
And here's what's cool about it.
If you think of something that

1206
01:13:02,939 --> 01:13:05,789
your customers might like,
because this is part of this

1207
01:13:05,789 --> 01:13:09,029
podcast in 2.0, where you're
part of the band, or you're in

1208
01:13:09,029 --> 01:13:14,309
the band, so I have community
chapters. So this, this JSON

1209
01:13:14,309 --> 01:13:17,519
file with the chapters is
external, it's it's referenced

1210
01:13:17,519 --> 01:13:22,859
in the RSS feed, and hyper
capture, which is an iOS app

1211
01:13:23,339 --> 01:13:27,479
giveaway, a simple way for
anybody to just tap it and say,

1212
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:32,429
Oh, hold on a second. I want to
place a chapter here. And then

1213
01:13:32,429 --> 01:13:35,519
there's a back end as a
podcaster, I can approve those

1214
01:13:35,519 --> 01:13:39,239
links, I can add a picture to
it. Now there's a few other

1215
01:13:39,239 --> 01:13:42,509
things you can do, which will
start expanding. So now now

1216
01:13:42,509 --> 01:13:48,419
people can start submitting very
much like a, you know, like a

1217
01:13:48,419 --> 01:13:52,499
timeline on SoundCloud, you can
submit either a comment or

1218
01:13:52,499 --> 01:13:59,129
chapter marker or a URL link.
And, and in my case, I just use

1219
01:13:59,399 --> 01:14:03,209
the API. There's an API endpoint
for each episode. And I just use

1220
01:14:03,209 --> 01:14:06,809
that whenever whenever a 2.0 app
comes along, and it finds the

1221
01:14:06,809 --> 01:14:10,079
chapters it just puts them right
in right away ended updates on

1222
01:14:10,079 --> 01:14:10,619
the fly.

1223
01:14:11,250 --> 01:14:14,730
Yeah, yeah, that is that is
cool. I think chapters is a is a

1224
01:14:14,730 --> 01:14:18,750
cool. I'm also really excited
about Sam bytes. Yeah, from from

1225
01:14:18,750 --> 01:14:18,930
kind

1226
01:14:18,930 --> 01:14:20,700
of the same thing as we figured
out.

1227
01:14:21,030 --> 01:14:26,520
Yeah, sound bites is an
interesting one. Because in the

1228
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:29,310
discovery, like if podcasts have
a discovery problem, or

1229
01:14:29,310 --> 01:14:32,970
whatever, the problem is that
you get to Apple podcasts. And

1230
01:14:32,970 --> 01:14:36,480
then there's 200 episodes that
are all two hours long. It's

1231
01:14:36,480 --> 01:14:40,410
like, Well, how do I get a quick
sense of what this what this

1232
01:14:40,410 --> 01:14:43,530
episode was about? Or what this
man is about?

1233
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,490
You want caste coverage? Have
you tried that app yet? No.

1234
01:14:47,700 --> 01:14:51,390
caste coverage is the craziest
fucking app in the world. It

1235
01:14:51,390 --> 01:14:55,560
gives you you fired up and it
just grabs a random podcast

1236
01:14:55,590 --> 01:15:00,000
dumps you in a place in the file
randomly. So you can listen to

1237
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,210
Do it and then you don't like it
hit the next one. It's perfect

1238
01:15:03,210 --> 01:15:04,200
for finding shit.

1239
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,190
Yes, the scan is the Scan button
on the FM radio. Yeah, and

1240
01:15:08,190 --> 01:15:11,190
it should have it should be
using sound bites now it's just

1241
01:15:11,190 --> 01:15:14,430
taking something at random. But
think about how cool it will be

1242
01:15:14,430 --> 01:15:16,200
with sound bites for
discoverability

1243
01:15:16,650 --> 01:15:19,980
pod verse two, you know, podcast
is all about sound bites they

1244
01:15:20,370 --> 01:15:21,660
pod is a pod first

1245
01:15:21,870 --> 01:15:23,190
pod verse.fm. Yep,

1246
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:26,760
yeah. And then you basically
just as community sound bites,

1247
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:28,980
and people are doing it, and it
publishes it back out into

1248
01:15:28,980 --> 01:15:30,390
chapters into chapters format.

1249
01:15:31,170 --> 01:15:33,510
Yeah, we'll have to look into
the chapter stuff. I mean, it's

1250
01:15:36,090 --> 01:15:39,960
I think it again, it has to be
sort of seamless for the

1251
01:15:40,110 --> 01:15:42,750
customer. And I don't know if
necessary know if we'd want

1252
01:15:42,750 --> 01:15:47,160
people editing tables of chapter
data. If they can, if we can

1253
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:49,530
pull the chapters right out of
the mp3 if they already had it.

1254
01:15:49,530 --> 01:15:50,670
That's obviously better.

1255
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,110
Oh, that's a cool idea.

1256
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:55,680
Yeah, that's what this was some
vendors, some holsters or do any

1257
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,080
pull it in, and then you just
scan the frame headers, and

1258
01:15:58,170 --> 01:16:00,690
yeah, Addy three stuff out and
build the JSON out of it.

1259
01:16:01,260 --> 01:16:02,700
Mm hmm. That would be that's
what,

1260
01:16:02,820 --> 01:16:05,340
that's why we did the Jason.
That's why we did the JSON is

1261
01:16:05,340 --> 01:16:10,350
because mp3 embedded chapters
are just, they've never taken

1262
01:16:10,350 --> 01:16:13,980
off. Right. And it's, it's too,
I'm not gonna say it's

1263
01:16:13,980 --> 01:16:18,030
difficult, but most people's,
like, most people are uploading

1264
01:16:18,030 --> 01:16:22,200
their mp3 to the host. And
they're not gonna sit there and

1265
01:16:22,290 --> 01:16:26,670
go through there and use an
editing tool to do that sort of

1266
01:16:26,670 --> 01:16:29,580
thing. They're gonna upload it
to the host. And then once you

1267
01:16:29,580 --> 01:16:32,280
have that point, you really
don't want to do a bunch of re

1268
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,950
encoding and that sort of thing
to me. But see,

1269
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:38,310
y'all just I just want to say
you technical boys, don't miss

1270
01:16:38,310 --> 01:16:41,790
the point here of the community
aspect. So when you're baking it

1271
01:16:41,790 --> 01:16:45,450
into your file, you know, that's
one way only, and people only

1272
01:16:45,450 --> 01:16:48,090
get to see that as bookmarks or
whatever you want to call them.

1273
01:16:48,420 --> 01:16:51,390
When you get the audience out
there who can say, Oh, shit,

1274
01:16:51,390 --> 01:16:54,570
this is a great joke, I want to
mark this here, or I want to put

1275
01:16:54,570 --> 01:16:58,350
a funny picture here, I want to
link to something. Now Now

1276
01:16:58,350 --> 01:17:01,590
you're cooking with gas, because
that's what people want. They

1277
01:17:01,590 --> 01:17:02,910
want to participate.

1278
01:17:03,150 --> 01:17:06,960
Cat chapters go both ways. It's
not just like one direction.

1279
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:11,220
No, because you can have as long
as you can, you have an

1280
01:17:11,220 --> 01:17:15,810
interface for other people to
edit the JSON, which I see which

1281
01:17:15,810 --> 01:17:19,140
still has a back end for
approval. So you know, people

1282
01:17:19,140 --> 01:17:21,870
aren't putting porn in there,
although very appropriate in

1283
01:17:21,870 --> 01:17:27,840
this show, then I can approve,
you approve it. And it's all

1284
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:31,020
rudimentary. And it's basically
just a list of start types, you

1285
01:17:31,020 --> 01:17:37,650
know, start time URL, image URL.
That's it. So yeah, and it's

1286
01:17:37,650 --> 01:17:40,980
just, uh, you know, just, each
time you add a chapter, it's

1287
01:17:40,980 --> 01:17:43,890
just a row is added to the
interface. So it's, and then it

1288
01:17:43,890 --> 01:17:46,950
spits out the the JSON on the
other end. But that's what makes

1289
01:17:46,950 --> 01:17:51,300
it cool is that anyone can edit
it. And I want this to be cross

1290
01:17:51,390 --> 01:17:55,260
app. If it could be two, I want
someone on one app to be able to

1291
01:17:55,290 --> 01:17:58,620
do something on a chapter and
then someone else can add their

1292
01:17:58,620 --> 01:18:01,680
own. And before you know it, you
got comments, you know, this

1293
01:18:01,680 --> 01:18:03,450
this could move quite quickly
this way.

1294
01:18:03,900 --> 01:18:07,890
Yeah, or even the thing I
thought about if we realized

1295
01:18:07,950 --> 01:18:11,100
that people the reason people
supported us monthly for our

1296
01:18:11,100 --> 01:18:15,060
show, because we had all these
tiers and staff and you know,

1297
01:18:15,090 --> 01:18:18,990
benefits. What they wanted was
the shout out at the end of the

1298
01:18:18,990 --> 01:18:22,530
show. Exactly. And we have this
big long list of people yeah,

1299
01:18:22,650 --> 01:18:25,800
and they want the shout out
that's what they want. And so

1300
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:31,890
now imagine if you know if you
you get the shout out but then

1301
01:18:31,890 --> 01:18:33,750
you could you're one of the
supporters you can take a

1302
01:18:33,750 --> 01:18:37,590
picture of yourself and send it
back and now you appear in the

1303
01:18:37,620 --> 01:18:41,460
in the chapter artwork right?
It's like what like that. That's

1304
01:18:41,460 --> 01:18:42,600
good. Dave Jim cat.

1305
01:18:42,719 --> 01:18:47,309
There you go. Speaking of which,
Dave let's thank our three

1306
01:18:47,309 --> 01:18:52,019
people. Oh, yeah. Because we're
I value if you don't mind for a

1307
01:18:52,019 --> 01:18:54,659
second here, john and Justin, we
are done. I

1308
01:18:54,750 --> 01:18:57,540
we do that transition perfectly.
Yes, we do.

1309
01:18:58,110 --> 01:19:03,030
Our value for whatever you
whatever value you get out of

1310
01:19:03,030 --> 01:19:07,140
this project as we are pushing
podcasting forward. We're in it

1311
01:19:07,140 --> 01:19:09,720
to make it work for everybody.
And the only way to keep the

1312
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:16,050
machines humming is through the
charity of Dave and myself. a

1313
01:19:16,050 --> 01:19:20,250
cast of 1000s and your actual
financial donations we look at

1314
01:19:20,250 --> 01:19:23,670
the three T's time talent and
treasure. What do we think today

1315
01:19:23,670 --> 01:19:24,030
Dave?

1316
01:19:24,870 --> 01:19:28,440
Well, the The first one is not
an actual donation. It's more of

1317
01:19:28,530 --> 01:19:30,990
a it is a donation but it's not
just a money donation. It's

1318
01:19:31,860 --> 01:19:38,070
thinking Ben and Alberto at RSS
calm because they sponsored on

1319
01:19:38,070 --> 01:19:43,500
our behalf for pod news to brand
their tech section of the

1320
01:19:43,500 --> 01:19:45,990
newsletter with podcasts index

1321
01:19:45,989 --> 01:19:48,869
that was really nice. And it was
it was it that's a nice little

1322
01:19:48,869 --> 01:19:53,339
blurb we got Oh, yeah, yeah,
it's a piece of placement. Yeah,

1323
01:19:53,339 --> 01:19:55,919
really appreciated that. That's
that's that's incredibly

1324
01:19:55,919 --> 01:19:58,559
valuable, that brings people
over. Really appreciate that,

1325
01:19:58,559 --> 01:19:58,949
guys.

1326
01:19:59,370 --> 01:20:03,630
I've talked a bit A few times
over the last couple of months,

1327
01:20:03,630 --> 01:20:07,860
and he's just just a top notch
guy. Great. Very cool. Yeah. And

1328
01:20:07,860 --> 01:20:11,160
he and he really wanted to do
that for us. So that's, I don't

1329
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:13,710
know how to value that. But I'm
sure it's not cheap. And we

1330
01:20:13,710 --> 01:20:18,930
really appreciate that guys. The
we have a automatic payment a

1331
01:20:18,930 --> 01:20:25,560
new subscription. Ah, very nice.
Joseph maraca $5 a month and I

1332
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,600
could not find a note from
Joseph, Bill.

1333
01:20:28,019 --> 01:20:29,579
Thank you, Joseph. It's
appreciated.

1334
01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:30,330
That's Yeah,

1335
01:20:30,450 --> 01:20:32,670
it's value. That's all we care
about.

1336
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:39,300
And we also got a one time
donation of $7. From Earl

1337
01:20:39,300 --> 01:20:45,270
Hamilton. Again, no note. So
that took a really long time.

1338
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:46,020
Well, we

1339
01:20:46,020 --> 01:20:50,250
have we appreciate any support
we get. And obviously we thank

1340
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,450
all the developers and people
who are on podcast, index,

1341
01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:58,140
social, who are hanging out,
adding their two cents thinking

1342
01:20:58,140 --> 01:21:01,920
about stuff, writing stuff,
helping with the namespace with

1343
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:06,810
specs, sometimes just making us
all laugh, it's, it's a lot of

1344
01:21:06,810 --> 01:21:10,080
fun. And it really throws back
to what we were talking about,

1345
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:14,340
you know, the, the early days of
podcasting, a lot of that spirit

1346
01:21:14,340 --> 01:21:18,810
is, is alive and well
rejuvenated. It's really nice to

1347
01:21:18,810 --> 01:21:21,570
see how everyone is coming
together and making this work.

1348
01:21:21,570 --> 01:21:26,100
And it's its independence. But I
think, at 40 or 50% of the

1349
01:21:26,100 --> 01:21:29,730
market outside of apple and
Spotify. We're doing pretty darn

1350
01:21:29,730 --> 01:21:32,400
good. And you can support us
again, your time, your talent,

1351
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:35,370
your treasure, go to podcast
index. org, at the bottom is a

1352
01:21:35,370 --> 01:21:40,650
big red Donate button. Or if you
have Spinks app where you got

1353
01:21:40,650 --> 01:21:44,430
some lightning payments, there's
a QR code, you can support us

1354
01:21:44,430 --> 01:21:46,740
there. And thanks again. It's
really appreciated.

1355
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:51,270
And john and Justin both
personally promised to me that

1356
01:21:51,270 --> 01:21:56,100
they would donate $1,000 each.
So that's in there. I guess

1357
01:21:56,100 --> 01:22:06,150
that's right. Did I get those
numbers? Right? Yeah.

1358
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:11,010
That's how we that's how we fund
distortion.

1359
01:22:13,110 --> 01:22:15,900
I like it. This is the new
model.

1360
01:22:17,310 --> 01:22:20,310
I will say I will add a route
the community aspect of this.

1361
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:25,890
I'm in a in a Slack channel for
the open pockets analytics

1362
01:22:25,890 --> 01:22:29,430
group. And there is a channel in
there for indie podcast and host

1363
01:22:29,430 --> 01:22:33,330
companies. And like everyone is
really friendly and open to

1364
01:22:33,330 --> 01:22:36,570
talking about stuff and sharing
ideas. So like, cool. It's

1365
01:22:36,570 --> 01:22:38,880
really, it's really cool to see
that I know everyone is a little

1366
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:42,150
bit worried about Spotify and
all these other making, oh,

1367
01:22:42,150 --> 01:22:44,490
we're here, we're here to fight
that man. That's what we're

1368
01:22:44,490 --> 01:22:45,120
doing here.

1369
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:47,730
We're, everyone's everyone's on
board, I think everyone is.

1370
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:51,810
So all we need is better
features, you know that

1371
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:54,330
eventually they're going to redo
their app, and it will be much

1372
01:22:54,330 --> 01:23:00,240
better. But think about I
personally don't know if

1373
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:03,150
they're, you know, their
purchases they've made if

1374
01:23:03,150 --> 01:23:08,190
they're going to be on the same
development trade. And they put

1375
01:23:08,190 --> 01:23:10,830
all their resources into
streaming ad insertion and

1376
01:23:10,830 --> 01:23:14,730
tracking, getting all that stuff
done. But you know, as we know,

1377
01:23:14,730 --> 01:23:18,930
there's these little things
like, you know, the 1.2 1.5

1378
01:23:18,930 --> 01:23:22,710
times speed, being able to share
something, be able to, to clip

1379
01:23:22,710 --> 01:23:25,110
something, there's all these
little features that they're

1380
01:23:25,110 --> 01:23:28,620
going to have to catch up on. We
have, I think 18 months

1381
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:32,700
headstart, and if we really
push, they'll never they'll

1382
01:23:32,700 --> 01:23:34,050
never really get off the ground.

1383
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:38,250
What's the What's your feeling
about Apple in all this case?

1384
01:23:38,250 --> 01:23:42,390
Because they've been kind of the
benevolent. I don't know what

1385
01:23:42,420 --> 01:23:46,920
they've kind of they hold a lot
of the balance of power right

1386
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:47,340
now.

1387
01:23:47,460 --> 01:23:48,030
Oh, crap.

1388
01:23:48,629 --> 01:23:50,249
You don't think so? No, No,

1389
01:23:50,700 --> 01:23:55,050
they don't. They're they're in
irons right now, to use the

1390
01:23:55,050 --> 01:23:58,980
nautical term. So they are of
course contemplating doing a

1391
01:23:58,980 --> 01:24:03,330
podcasting plus a podcast plus,
which will be, you know, talent

1392
01:24:03,330 --> 01:24:07,650
and news, etc, which is a
burgeoning business for Apple. I

1393
01:24:07,650 --> 01:24:11,640
don't think it's, I mean, they
have to do it, I think, I don't

1394
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:15,780
think they're particularly great
at it. They curate very kind of

1395
01:24:15,780 --> 01:24:20,250
middle of the road very safe, at
not really what people are

1396
01:24:20,250 --> 01:24:23,460
looking for anymore. They want
to be able to explore the unsafe

1397
01:24:23,460 --> 01:24:28,230
stuff. On the other hand,
they're totally stagnant with

1398
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:32,850
with podcasting, and I've been
kicking them, I'm saying, look,

1399
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:39,330
I you know, whatever you do, you
I would suggest adopting to the

1400
01:24:39,330 --> 01:24:43,440
new features that are coming
out. If you want to really play

1401
01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:46,800
both sides of the fence against
Spotify, you're already under

1402
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:50,520
50% market share according to
the numbers, whatever it means.

1403
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:55,260
So, yeah, go ahead and compete
if you really think that, you

1404
01:24:55,260 --> 01:24:57,660
know, the offering you can put
together is going to be worth

1405
01:24:57,660 --> 01:25:01,440
some type of subscription Where
again, you know, we're going

1406
01:25:01,440 --> 01:25:04,680
exactly the opposite. And
eventually, all these streaming

1407
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:08,220
channels on television or your
Roku and all these apps, that

1408
01:25:08,220 --> 01:25:10,620
someone is gonna have to come up
with the universal way to do

1409
01:25:10,620 --> 01:25:14,460
that, because you can't have a
$300 bill and only listen to a

1410
01:25:14,460 --> 01:25:19,200
couple of shows, or watch a
couple of TV shows on every

1411
01:25:19,230 --> 01:25:23,790
different app. It's just it's,
it's very arrogant. We have five

1412
01:25:23,790 --> 01:25:28,980
Joe Rogan's outside of these
places. Hmm. And their audiences

1413
01:25:29,070 --> 01:25:33,930
are so powerful, that when
Michelle Obama's podcast

1414
01:25:33,930 --> 01:25:36,720
couldn't get the audience that
they had sold to the

1415
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:40,230
advertisers, all of a sudden, it
was no longer just an exclusive

1416
01:25:40,230 --> 01:25:43,350
to Spotify. It's on every
podcast app everywhere, because

1417
01:25:43,350 --> 01:25:46,440
they can't get the audience who
has the audience? We have the

1418
01:25:46,440 --> 01:25:47,130
audience.

1419
01:25:47,910 --> 01:25:51,900
I see what you're saying. Yeah.
But in terms of like actual

1420
01:25:51,930 --> 01:25:55,740
listening apps, Apple is still
outside of Spotify. Apple still

1421
01:25:55,740 --> 01:26:00,780
has most of that, that that
market share, and I'm guessing a

1422
01:26:00,780 --> 01:26:04,770
lot of people are still like
when they discover podcasts for

1423
01:26:04,770 --> 01:26:08,100
the first time. They're not
downloading overcast, their most

1424
01:26:08,490 --> 01:26:12,870
normal, quote unquote, are, you
know that they use the apple

1425
01:26:12,870 --> 01:26:14,460
podcast app, I'm guessing

1426
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:18,750
well, that the apple podcast app
stats, first percentage of

1427
01:26:18,750 --> 01:26:22,830
downloads has been dwindling.
It's been steadily going down.

1428
01:26:22,830 --> 01:26:27,300
And I think if you go back, if
you go back 10 years ago, you

1429
01:26:27,300 --> 01:26:32,460
would have never convinced
anybody that Internet Explorer

1430
01:26:32,490 --> 01:26:36,090
was not going to be the dominant
browser. And that and that your

1431
01:26:36,090 --> 01:26:39,390
grandmother would go out and
download a copy of Chrome onto

1432
01:26:39,390 --> 01:26:42,300
her computer, you would say,
well, just the thing that it

1433
01:26:42,300 --> 01:26:45,510
comes with, is the thing that
everybody's going to use. But

1434
01:26:45,510 --> 01:26:49,260
the the power of word of mouth,
it got to the point where people

1435
01:26:49,260 --> 01:26:53,190
were saying it became known
amongst everybody, that Internet

1436
01:26:53,190 --> 01:26:55,890
Explorer sucks, you need a
better browser, go download

1437
01:26:55,890 --> 01:26:58,830
Chrome. And it just became this
thing that everybody knows. And

1438
01:26:58,830 --> 01:27:02,250
I think that's happening in
podcasting. The Apple podcast

1439
01:27:02,250 --> 01:27:06,750
app is bad. It's just that
people are saying these, like,

1440
01:27:06,780 --> 01:27:10,140
I'm using overcast most of the
time, unless I'm listening to

1441
01:27:10,140 --> 01:27:14,100
Sphinx. If so when I whenever
somebody asked me, What should I

1442
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:17,670
listen to, I'll just tell them
go get overcast, I think that

1443
01:27:17,670 --> 01:27:20,760
read that replicates out, and I
think it's having an overall

1444
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:21,810
aggregate effect.

1445
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:25,170
And, and also don't get stuck in
in the kind of what I call the

1446
01:27:25,170 --> 01:27:28,350
the holsters dilemma with and
that's what's been going on for

1447
01:27:28,350 --> 01:27:34,050
a decade, as well as Apple going
to support it. So now we have 15

1448
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:38,580
apps that support these new
features. When I when I say to

1449
01:27:38,580 --> 01:27:43,740
someone, hey, and I, we have a
pretty big audience, I say, you

1450
01:27:43,740 --> 01:27:47,310
know, go get hyper capture, his
servers get overloaded, because

1451
01:27:47,310 --> 01:27:49,260
people are getting hyper
capture, and why are they

1452
01:27:49,260 --> 01:27:52,290
getting it because it has
features they like they can do

1453
01:27:52,290 --> 01:27:57,180
something with it. If I if I say
check out this episode, I almost

1454
01:27:57,180 --> 01:28:02,100
now instinctively send them to a
pod friendly, because it's a Web

1455
01:28:02,100 --> 01:28:05,580
Player, it comes up fast, it
works fast, that has all the

1456
01:28:05,580 --> 01:28:08,760
features in there, and people
are often blown away. It's like

1457
01:28:08,760 --> 01:28:12,840
not really, it's not it's a big
step for someone to switch apps,

1458
01:28:12,990 --> 01:28:16,860
because someone who's really,
really dedicated to it. And

1459
01:28:16,860 --> 01:28:20,880
you'll see a lot of people, you
know, pie pocket casts, you

1460
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:25,380
know, very dedicated podcast
attic extremely dedicated. So

1461
01:28:25,620 --> 01:28:29,520
instead of getting people to
switch their apps, the ones they

1462
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,910
like, now we have features that
these app developers can upgrade

1463
01:28:32,910 --> 01:28:39,060
to an apple, if they don't, you
know, what is NPR gonna do? They

1464
01:28:39,060 --> 01:28:42,150
want seasons, the way your
customers want seasons,

1465
01:28:42,450 --> 01:28:45,990
eventually, there's going to be
enough apps to support seasons,

1466
01:28:46,230 --> 01:28:50,160
that NPR will say, hey, if you
want to find our seasons, use,

1467
01:28:50,190 --> 01:28:55,260
you know, pod verse.fm they
will, they will do that. Now,

1468
01:28:55,260 --> 01:28:57,780
I've been around long enough to
see it happen. So just like Dave

1469
01:28:57,780 --> 01:29:03,240
is saying, this idea that it's
all over now is the browser Wars

1470
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:07,320
was totally driven by features.
Totally, it was all about the

1471
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:13,980
features. And it still is and
developers Thank you, Michael,

1472
01:29:13,980 --> 01:29:17,970
Microsoft is now trying to
capture some of that back and

1473
01:29:17,970 --> 01:29:20,310
and you know, I think they've
gone totally overboard where now

1474
01:29:20,310 --> 01:29:24,210
the browser just runs and sucks
out your life in data full time

1475
01:29:24,210 --> 01:29:28,980
but without even open. But yeah,
it's it's it's going to come

1476
01:29:28,980 --> 01:29:32,130
down to features and people have
been wanting these because every

1477
01:29:32,130 --> 01:29:37,500
other platform has this is your
own platform you can interact.

1478
01:29:38,460 --> 01:29:41,790
And so podcasting needs to get
it and let's, you know, let's

1479
01:29:41,790 --> 01:29:44,610
see if Spotify does anything
like that? I don't think so.

1480
01:29:44,610 --> 01:29:45,780
It's not their purview right

1481
01:29:45,780 --> 01:29:50,430
now. Yeah, I mean, I my my
preference would be for Apple to

1482
01:29:50,820 --> 01:29:55,680
Apple to adopt this stuff.
Because it would be nice if, you

1483
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:59,400
know, outside of Spotify has
already said you know, their

1484
01:29:59,490 --> 01:30:03,600
their path. is clear. But all
these other players that support

1485
01:30:03,600 --> 01:30:10,290
RSS feeds my preference would be
like, yeah, let's, let's use the

1486
01:30:10,290 --> 01:30:14,100
podcast index stuff. When we
first started, I was like,

1487
01:30:14,100 --> 01:30:16,890
what's going on with RSS? Like,
what's, where's the RSS working

1488
01:30:16,890 --> 01:30:22,290
group and all that? And that's,
uh, you know, I don't know, do

1489
01:30:22,290 --> 01:30:25,050
you guys ever talk to those? Is
that even a thing anymore? I

1490
01:30:25,050 --> 01:30:28,680
was a founding member of the RSS
board. It's a piece of crap.

1491
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:31,800
It's like, it's like nothing's
like people running around

1492
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,350
talking stuff for 10 years doing
nothing.

1493
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:39,120
Yeah. So So this seems to be the
best approach is to say, let's,

1494
01:30:39,150 --> 01:30:44,490
let's enhance RSS to renew open
protocol. I'm totally on board

1495
01:30:44,490 --> 01:30:48,720
with that. I mean, my, my dream
would be for Apple to adopt it.

1496
01:30:48,750 --> 01:30:51,450
And then, yeah, we don't have
because you're right. All the

1497
01:30:51,450 --> 01:30:55,620
only innovation we've had, in
the last 510 years. It's been

1498
01:30:55,620 --> 01:30:56,250
when Apple

1499
01:30:56,280 --> 01:31:01,050
announces new, you know, new
tags. And so here's, here's,

1500
01:31:01,110 --> 01:31:03,990
this is the problem. And this is
why part of why we started the

1501
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:08,070
index. podcast, app developers
have never been in the deal

1502
01:31:08,070 --> 01:31:11,700
flow, there's been no money for
them. So what's the incentive to

1503
01:31:11,700 --> 01:31:16,320
create a great app? And and
Beside that, in order to create

1504
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:19,530
a great app, you need endpoints,
you need an API that is

1505
01:31:19,530 --> 01:31:22,890
expandable, you need someone on
the other end of the API to

1506
01:31:22,890 --> 01:31:26,850
create the features that you
need. So we provided that, and

1507
01:31:26,850 --> 01:31:30,060
now we have apps that never
existed before. So the longer

1508
01:31:30,060 --> 01:31:32,970
Apple waits, the more market
share we're going to take from

1509
01:31:32,970 --> 01:31:33,900
them. Yeah,

1510
01:31:33,930 --> 01:31:37,500
yeah, that's the way I see it.
And maybe that's the hedge to is

1511
01:31:37,500 --> 01:31:42,990
to is if they want eight, to
maintain some space in

1512
01:31:42,990 --> 01:31:50,490
podcasting, they, and they are
competing against Spotify. And

1513
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:53,370
maybe that's the hedge, as you
say, like, Listen, like

1514
01:31:53,700 --> 01:31:58,380
podcasting is moving on. And we
need people are demanding these

1515
01:31:58,380 --> 01:32:02,040
features. Just adopt them. And
then you've got, you've got a

1516
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:04,320
big advantage over your
competition.

1517
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:08,250
Yes, exactly. Right. Because you
think my, my dream of how this

1518
01:32:08,250 --> 01:32:12,600
plays out is that Apple
currently has the iTunes

1519
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:17,970
namespace of which is mostly a
standard, and they but the

1520
01:32:17,970 --> 01:32:22,440
iTunes brand isn't even a thing
anymore, that iTunes doesn't

1521
01:32:22,500 --> 01:32:23,010
really even

1522
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:26,490
nowadays, remember, name doesn't
mean anything.

1523
01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:30,330
Just refer to it as iTunes.

1524
01:32:33,150 --> 01:32:39,420
I don't know what you're talking
about. The, the iTunes namespace

1525
01:32:40,050 --> 01:32:45,930
refers to a product that doesn't
exist. But so so really what you

1526
01:32:45,930 --> 01:32:49,800
could do, and this is my
dreaming here, really, what what

1527
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:53,640
Apple could do is they could
look at the podcast namespace,

1528
01:32:54,210 --> 01:32:57,180
and they can just merge the
podcast namespace in with

1529
01:32:57,180 --> 01:33:03,120
iTunes, and just and just call
it podcast. Branding isn't

1530
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:06,300
giving them anything anymore. So
this could be an industry wide

1531
01:33:06,300 --> 01:33:06,720
change.

1532
01:33:06,870 --> 01:33:10,410
Great idea. That'd be fantastic
to just merge it in Nice.

1533
01:33:10,440 --> 01:33:12,930
Yeah, there would be no
breakage, I think I think would

1534
01:33:12,930 --> 01:33:13,440
just roll.

1535
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:15,510
It's gonna take a lot of
pressure. I mean, I think as a

1536
01:33:15,510 --> 01:33:21,030
group, you know, between smaller
hosts like us, and people like

1537
01:33:21,030 --> 01:33:23,610
you guys, like it's gonna take a
group effort to really think

1538
01:33:23,610 --> 01:33:27,630
pressure, pressure Apple, maybe
there's some campaign we can do

1539
01:33:27,630 --> 01:33:32,430
all at the same time to just
bombard them with. everyone's

1540
01:33:32,430 --> 01:33:33,480
asking for this stuff.

1541
01:33:33,510 --> 01:33:36,450
Well, that's that's actually not
necessary, because they're quite

1542
01:33:36,450 --> 01:33:39,600
aware of what we're doing today
are, they're very aware I'm

1543
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,450
presenting the namespace to them
in January. Yeah, give them

1544
01:33:42,450 --> 01:33:43,950
shit. Yeah.

1545
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:47,610
That's I don't, it may not take
as much pressure as we think. I

1546
01:33:47,610 --> 01:33:50,730
don't think so either. I mean, I
think I'm gonna lay my case out

1547
01:33:50,730 --> 01:33:54,000
before them. It's like, the
timing is interesting. Why, why?

1548
01:33:54,060 --> 01:33:59,700
Why even? Why even compete with
Spotify? That's fine. If you

1549
01:33:59,700 --> 01:34:04,110
want to do that, you know, it
would be is Apple plus Apple TV

1550
01:34:04,110 --> 01:34:07,560
plus really competing with other
things? Is it really?

1551
01:34:08,640 --> 01:34:12,210
You said, I mean, Adam, you
said, you know, a couple months

1552
01:34:12,210 --> 01:34:16,740
ago that you think that Joe
Rogan will be coming back, you

1553
01:34:16,740 --> 01:34:18,930
know, outside of the ecosystem
as well that they'll have to

1554
01:34:18,930 --> 01:34:19,950
open that thing back up?

1555
01:34:20,190 --> 01:34:22,380
Yeah, I think so. I think
they're gonna have a real

1556
01:34:22,380 --> 01:34:25,200
problem getting the numbers that
they that they wanted to get.

1557
01:34:25,530 --> 01:34:29,220
Absolutely, based on what I've
seen, are already the audience

1558
01:34:29,220 --> 01:34:34,650
his audience reaction, that
that's a very likely scenario. I

1559
01:34:34,650 --> 01:34:38,280
mean, and if that happens, that
tells me everything I need to

1560
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:42,540
know about people's about the
successful about whether it's

1561
01:34:42,540 --> 01:34:45,990
going to be successful, to
capture exclusive content, and

1562
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:47,070
that your business model,

1563
01:34:47,250 --> 01:34:50,550
then that and that's the mistake
that they're making some mistake

1564
01:34:50,550 --> 01:34:56,700
that Apple's making is the ID n
and Spotify is the idea that the

1565
01:34:56,700 --> 01:35:01,440
success lies with the podcaster
With the audience and the

1566
01:35:01,440 --> 01:35:07,920
audience is all over the place.
And by the way, they, Spotify

1567
01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:11,760
may come for the podcast apps
next, they may start buying

1568
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:12,210
people.

1569
01:35:13,139 --> 01:35:13,949
Hmm,

1570
01:35:14,250 --> 01:35:18,840
I don't put that beyond them at
all. So make sure you got all

1571
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:22,260
your damn features integrated
before you become a millionaire,

1572
01:35:22,260 --> 01:35:23,730
your damn developers,

1573
01:35:24,030 --> 01:35:28,290
does transistor have a app do
have an actual app? There's no,

1574
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:29,220
we don't.

1575
01:35:29,519 --> 01:35:32,549
Yeah, just testing, we really
want things to be as simple.

1576
01:35:32,579 --> 01:35:36,659
That's the beautiful part about
an open system is that you can

1577
01:35:36,659 --> 01:35:41,129
provide one part of the value
chain and then let other folks

1578
01:35:41,129 --> 01:35:45,779
do what they're good at total,
is so as a two person company,

1579
01:35:45,779 --> 01:35:48,419
we can you know, have a good
business and have a good life

1580
01:35:48,419 --> 01:35:52,949
and serve our customers and go
home and eat dinner with the fam

1581
01:35:52,949 --> 01:35:56,849
you know. And so I, our
preference is that to encourage

1582
01:35:56,849 --> 01:36:01,949
the overall ecosystem have, you
know, we have an API, we, we

1583
01:36:01,949 --> 01:36:05,249
want other folks to build stuff
on top of what we've got or

1584
01:36:05,369 --> 01:36:08,969
build stuff on top of just pot,
you know, podcasting in general,

1585
01:36:09,629 --> 01:36:13,379
by the way, cannot cannot view
source your API documentation

1586
01:36:13,379 --> 01:36:15,929
and just steal all of your
styles and all that stuff can

1587
01:36:15,959 --> 01:36:18,839
make because our API
documentation looks like

1588
01:36:18,839 --> 01:36:19,529
garbage.

1589
01:36:19,769 --> 01:36:20,879
You should also use

1590
01:36:21,509 --> 01:36:24,569
tailwind, tailwind. CSS is what
we've been using for all of our

1591
01:36:24,569 --> 01:36:25,019
stuff.

1592
01:36:25,620 --> 01:36:29,010
Okay, cool. So yeah, cuz I was
looking at your API about a week

1593
01:36:29,010 --> 01:36:33,690
ago, and I was like, Man, it's
documentation is so pretty, are

1594
01:36:33,690 --> 01:36:34,380
just like a dump.

1595
01:36:35,940 --> 01:36:37,320
All right. Now,

1596
01:36:37,349 --> 01:36:41,969
now we're down into nerd stuff.
Looks. Pretty baby.

1597
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:46,800
I mean, you know, Pornhub got
defunded, so I gotta do

1598
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:47,220
something.

1599
01:36:48,420 --> 01:36:53,460
Justin, and john transistor.fm.
Really appreciate the work you

1600
01:36:53,460 --> 01:36:55,830
guys are doing in the
podcasting. I'm gonna say it in

1601
01:36:55,830 --> 01:37:01,680
the podcasting space. It's super
important. We support everybody

1602
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:05,340
who is who is out there making
it happen, who is independent.

1603
01:37:05,820 --> 01:37:08,640
And I really appreciate you guys
taking the time to share your

1604
01:37:08,640 --> 01:37:09,600
thoughts with us today.

1605
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:11,760
Yeah, this is fun. Yeah.

1606
01:37:11,790 --> 01:37:13,530
Thanks for having us. Yeah, we
really, really appreciate what

1607
01:37:13,530 --> 01:37:15,330
you guys are doing to push
things forward.

1608
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:17,910
Well, I want to say thanks to
because you're one of the I

1609
01:37:17,910 --> 01:37:20,760
mean, you're very early to
integrate with the artists

1610
01:37:20,760 --> 01:37:23,550
submission to the index, I
think. I think y'all implemented

1611
01:37:23,550 --> 01:37:28,020
that maybe like two or three
weeks after we launched pod cast

1612
01:37:28,020 --> 01:37:29,640
index. So I mean, it's right,

1613
01:37:29,700 --> 01:37:32,850
right in the UI, people can
click a button right when after

1614
01:37:32,850 --> 01:37:35,700
they submit to Apple, they click
a button and automatically

1615
01:37:35,700 --> 01:37:37,170
submit it to the index. Pretty
cool.

1616
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:39,450
Yeah, we really appreciate y'all
jumping on board. That was

1617
01:37:39,450 --> 01:37:39,870
great.

1618
01:37:39,900 --> 01:37:43,290
And we and we'll, we'll get you
into one of these tests with

1619
01:37:43,290 --> 01:37:47,850
some of the the pledge model
apps I think you'll enjoy seeing

1620
01:37:47,850 --> 01:37:51,240
it absolutely. will show you the
future. The future is testing

1621
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:54,480
2.0 Ladies and gentlemen, Dave,
anything else I can do for you?

1622
01:37:54,480 --> 01:37:56,760
What do you need? Oh,

1623
01:37:57,179 --> 01:38:03,029
the day job has been hectic this
week. And yeah, any any coffee

1624
01:38:04,049 --> 01:38:05,519
in a good book.

1625
01:38:07,380 --> 01:38:09,300
All right, everybody. We are
building the future of

1626
01:38:09,300 --> 01:38:13,530
podcasting, podcasting. 2.0
Dave, we'll do another board

1627
01:38:13,530 --> 01:38:15,330
meeting next next Friday, my
friend.

1628
01:38:15,780 --> 01:38:16,470
I see you bro.

1629
01:38:16,530 --> 01:38:20,610
All right, everybody. Make sure
you support us if you feel like

1630
01:38:20,610 --> 01:38:23,850
your time Townsend treasure
podcast index.org podcast.

1631
01:38:24,630 --> 01:38:26,370
We'll see you next week. Bye.
Bye, everybody.

1632
01:38:41,580 --> 01:38:46,140
You have been listening to
podcasting 2.0 visit podcast.

1633
01:38:46,950 --> 01:38:48,900
org for more information.