1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,430 Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting 2.0 for October 27 2023, episode 150 2 00:00:05,430 --> 00:00:12,690 to drop the talk. Hello, welcome to podcasting 2.0 It is time 3 00:00:12,690 --> 00:00:16,020 once again for the official board meeting. And we do it in 4 00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:19,860 the only boardroom where everybody has a gavel everything 5 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:23,430 happening at podcasts index.org with a namespace for the crazy 6 00:00:23,430 --> 00:00:27,090 chapters and all the goings on and podcasts index dot social 7 00:00:27,090 --> 00:00:29,700 I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in 8 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:33,390 Alabama, my personal calm and any storm and he's high on meds 9 00:00:33,390 --> 00:00:36,240 ladies say hello to my friend on the other end ladies and 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,330 gentlemen, the one and only Mr. Dave Jones. 11 00:00:41,250 --> 00:00:45,450 Dave Jones: Hi on mids Hi Ahmed's low on Chapter boosts 12 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:53,460 the chapter boost thing I mean talk about I mean, that stirred 13 00:00:53,460 --> 00:00:56,880 up a bunch of stuff I was not expecting. Oh, I love that he 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,020 hates chapter boosts. 15 00:00:58,050 --> 00:01:01,710 Adam Curry: No, no, no, no, that's not true. I first Okay, 16 00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:05,040 first of all, let's let's just let's take a breath everybody. 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,730 Dave, you're not feeling well. So but we have to give you we 18 00:01:11,730 --> 00:01:13,890 have to do you want the comfy chair? Hey, once you take the 19 00:01:13,890 --> 00:01:15,030 beat you want the beanbag? 20 00:01:17,850 --> 00:01:19,080 Dave Jones: Like a stuffed animal. 21 00:01:19,619 --> 00:01:21,749 Adam Curry: You do need a comfort a comfort animal a 22 00:01:21,749 --> 00:01:23,429 comfort story to make you feel better. 23 00:01:23,820 --> 00:01:26,190 Dave Jones: What they call is emotional support emotionally. 24 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:27,870 Yes. Yes. Emotional support. 25 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:29,340 Adam Curry: Bear. Exactly. 26 00:01:29,729 --> 00:01:34,259 Dave Jones: There you go. Every all I have is an emotional 27 00:01:34,259 --> 00:01:38,609 support. Beef shake. And it's not it's really cold and not 28 00:01:38,609 --> 00:01:39,779 very fun to hold on to. 29 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,360 Adam Curry: All right, yes, I'll take I'll take this one. I've 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,970 been preparing for this one for for a week. 31 00:01:49,410 --> 00:01:53,250 Dave Jones: The chapter boosts envision envision me behind you, 32 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,090 rubbing the shoulders smack in the arms getting you ready. 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,020 Like, you know, 34 00:01:58,710 --> 00:02:01,020 Adam Curry: this is this is really, really good. We learned 35 00:02:01,020 --> 00:02:05,010 so much. Now, first of all, these only really happened on my 36 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:10,200 feet. So, you know, it was amazing to see how far people 37 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,500 took this as we are doing and we're this and we shouldn't be 38 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:16,770 doing that. And this is ruining everything. And it's like hold 39 00:02:16,770 --> 00:02:19,950 on us. It's just a couple of feeds I maintain. It's not the 40 00:02:19,950 --> 00:02:23,010 end of the world. Nothing has changed. It is though it is the 41 00:02:23,010 --> 00:02:27,510 spec has not changed. Know, what we learned and what I learned 42 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:30,510 which let me just back up and explain what what happened for 43 00:02:30,510 --> 00:02:35,610 people who are new. Based upon an ad hoc idea, John Spurlock 44 00:02:35,610 --> 00:02:40,620 put together the reflex service, which enables you to reroute or 45 00:02:40,620 --> 00:02:45,480 route booster grams that are sent to a podcast or to an 46 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:50,280 episode to be rerouted and added to the currently an existing 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,870 chapters file with timestamps and they will show up in the 48 00:02:54,870 --> 00:02:57,720 chapters interface, I'm going to call it that for a specific 49 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,280 reason. Chapters interface, yes, because there's two pieces, two 50 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,120 chapters. And this is what I learned. And I'm and I have to 51 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:13,230 say, I am incredibly happy to learn. Not just that people love 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,210 chapters, but that they use them. This was, to me was really 53 00:03:18,210 --> 00:03:23,010 not well known before all this. But there's there's two, when I 54 00:03:23,010 --> 00:03:26,940 say chapter interface, there's what I what I love is chapter 55 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:31,320 images. I love looking at, I love you know, if I'm driving in 56 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:37,470 the car, or from just listening, I typically don't if it's a show 57 00:03:37,470 --> 00:03:40,860 that has good chapters, I want to see what images come by so 58 00:03:40,860 --> 00:03:45,600 mere mortals, you know, chyron does great images. And I, to me, 59 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,650 it's like a it's a an extra dimension to an audio podcast. 60 00:03:50,250 --> 00:03:55,470 So to see images come by, and then a boost a booster gram with 61 00:03:55,470 --> 00:04:00,750 a message and then another image of delightful what I personally 62 00:04:00,750 --> 00:04:05,130 never use. But what I think chapters are used for the most 63 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:11,460 is the table of contents. This is what it screwed up that the 64 00:04:11,460 --> 00:04:15,720 Table of Contents people use to come back to a podcast, 65 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,610 particularly some of the longer ones that that I that I produce 66 00:04:20,610 --> 00:04:25,350 on feeds where people like or to skip certain segments. I think 67 00:04:25,350 --> 00:04:28,530 people use it for that as well, which obviously I'm not a huge 68 00:04:28,530 --> 00:04:32,310 fan of but I understand it and chapters are in there for a 69 00:04:32,310 --> 00:04:35,610 reason. So suddenly, I want to I want to skip this topic. I want 70 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:39,600 to go to the next topic, so that it works incredibly well for 71 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:47,280 that. So putting in the booster grams that show up in the table 72 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:52,800 of contents of chapters, which people say is chapters, no 73 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:57,750 chapters is a chapter object. I went back I looked at the spec 74 00:04:57,750 --> 00:05:02,250 and I learned something about the spec that chapter object is 75 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:06,660 ID booster grams with a timestamp are completely valid 76 00:05:06,660 --> 00:05:11,460 as a chapter chapter object, but not in the way people, people 77 00:05:11,460 --> 00:05:18,210 use chapter table of contents. So luckily, with the foresight 78 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:22,140 of some brilliant people, I don't know exactly who there is 79 00:05:22,170 --> 00:05:27,900 a extra little option you can set, which is to see equals 80 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:34,440 false, it is true by default, or if omitted. So, in moving 81 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,440 forward in this experiment, and I still consider it to be 82 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,810 experiment, I asked John Spurlock to immediately label 83 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:49,350 all booster grams as TOC equals false, so that they will not 84 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:53,970 show up in the table of contents and therefore will satisfy 85 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:58,890 everybody who had an issue. And it's it's 100% of the negative 86 00:05:58,890 --> 00:06:02,940 feedback was about not the chapters, the table of contents. 87 00:06:03,690 --> 00:06:08,460 Yes. Now, of course, exactly 0% of apps have implemented that. 88 00:06:10,170 --> 00:06:13,230 We're all busy developers, and we all you know, we all have 89 00:06:13,230 --> 00:06:15,570 stuff to do, and it works. And that's fine. We don't have to 90 00:06:15,570 --> 00:06:20,430 look at it. Oops, what do you mean? Oops. 91 00:06:21,090 --> 00:06:24,300 Dave Jones: Well, nobody oops, that nobody did full implemented 92 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:24,930 the full spec. 93 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:26,130 Adam Curry: Oh, no, that's okay. I mean, I 94 00:06:26,130 --> 00:06:28,650 Dave Jones: didn't expect Yes, it's totally not a criticism. 95 00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:30,690 No, no, thanks all the time. 96 00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:34,830 Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. So based upon a lot of feedback 97 00:06:34,830 --> 00:06:38,460 that I got, because they're my feeds, so I got most of the 98 00:06:38,460 --> 00:06:43,140 feedback. And, and, and most of it, that was negative was 99 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:47,550 extremely negative, very negative, but it was really only 100 00:06:47,550 --> 00:06:52,560 about the Table of Contents, not about the images that fly by the 101 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,800 images that you would see on your car system. If you're using 102 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,630 an app that does CarPlay or, or Android Auto, which I find 103 00:07:00,630 --> 00:07:08,040 delightful. Then to me, that is I love those chapter changes. I 104 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,300 don't use table if that's not true, even I think on one or two 105 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:16,560 shows may use the Table of Contents. But it's typically so 106 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,760 it'd be like, a good example would be partners weekly review. 107 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:23,970 If I'm really bored of the interview, then I'll then I'll 108 00:07:23,970 --> 00:07:26,580 say, okay, boom, let me get past this. And I can easily find the 109 00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:29,550 next spot. And I heard that perfect example. Yeah, the same 110 00:07:29,550 --> 00:07:32,730 thing. And I would totally understand if, and there's all 111 00:07:32,730 --> 00:07:36,600 different, every app responds in a different way. So some, you 112 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,890 know, we don't have to get into it, the table of contents should 113 00:07:40,890 --> 00:07:43,470 be holy. The table of contents 114 00:07:43,470 --> 00:07:46,800 Dave Jones: is for skipping yes through is for skipping to the 115 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,250 end of somebody who's talking about brand uplift strategy. 116 00:07:51,450 --> 00:07:54,510 Adam Curry: That's the only reason for it. It's only for 117 00:07:54,510 --> 00:08:02,700 that. So in my mind, and this is what I would propose the that it 118 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:07,410 seems like so. So what happened was very interesting, because 119 00:08:07,410 --> 00:08:10,650 there was a very long thread. And it was like, and it got into 120 00:08:10,650 --> 00:08:13,770 cross app comments. And we should be showing these in 121 00:08:13,770 --> 00:08:18,270 different file and all this. No, no, I disagree with all of that. 122 00:08:18,510 --> 00:08:23,310 This is just another chapter object. It's a valid top to 123 00:08:23,310 --> 00:08:28,380 Chapter object, because it's based on a timeline. And it has 124 00:08:28,380 --> 00:08:34,590 data, it isn't, it is invalid as a table of contents. vitam. So 125 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:39,150 it seems like it wouldn't be a huge, I'm speaking for every 126 00:08:39,150 --> 00:08:41,910 developer in the world, hey, it's easy. Just put it in TOC 127 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:45,120 flow, you know, filter that out, pull it pull request, yeah, do a 128 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,690 pull request, it's done. I would like to add to that something 129 00:08:48,690 --> 00:08:52,860 that was in a thread that you are on for future uses. And that 130 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:57,240 will be type equals, because I totally see where there could be 131 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:02,460 many different types of chapter markers that do not belong in 132 00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:08,190 the table of contents. That actually, again, I feel that the 133 00:09:08,190 --> 00:09:12,420 chapter images what rotates on my screen when I'm listening to 134 00:09:12,750 --> 00:09:17,670 I particularly like it with music shows. When you're hearing 135 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:20,820 a song, boom, the album art changes, boom, then the next 136 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:25,500 song that's very enjoyable to see that which is why radio 137 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:28,830 stations do it RDS does this all the time you drive and you see 138 00:09:28,830 --> 00:09:33,090 the album change. This is a very normal, very, very well 139 00:09:33,090 --> 00:09:39,630 understood type of interface for it for listening. You know, not 140 00:09:39,630 --> 00:09:43,920 all cars or apps are compatible, but I see the work that's being 141 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,490 done. I think pod verse has done a lot of work on that. So I 142 00:09:47,490 --> 00:09:55,710 totally see. A type equals as a valid addition to the spec that 143 00:09:55,710 --> 00:10:01,350 should be considered. But I but the issue it. And I never 144 00:10:01,350 --> 00:10:05,670 thought it's the weirdest thing. I finally understand part of 145 00:10:05,670 --> 00:10:12,480 Dave Winer because Because Dave Winer would say, Oh, your app is 146 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:18,420 broken. Because it doesn't know how to how to filter out a TOC 147 00:10:18,420 --> 00:10:22,320 equals false. Now he wouldn't have this whole conversation 148 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,530 behind it. Because you've probably been, he would just 149 00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:29,160 say, your apps broken, your app is broken, it's no good, your 150 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:35,730 app is no good, without giving any explanation. So I would I 151 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:44,670 would love for the poor podcast apps to, at minimum, filter out 152 00:10:44,670 --> 00:10:49,860 the TOC equals false chapter markers so that sanity is 153 00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:56,430 restored to the universe. But I would also like to continue with 154 00:10:56,430 --> 00:11:03,900 the showing booster grams in the chapter system, because I like 155 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:06,780 seeing it, I think people who send booster grams like seeing 156 00:11:06,780 --> 00:11:12,450 it, you know, it's fun. And with the type equals, you know, it 157 00:11:12,450 --> 00:11:15,930 can be used for, you know, it can be used in different pieces 158 00:11:16,380 --> 00:11:19,680 of an app interface. And we could come up with more types of 159 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,250 Chapter images, which when you think about it, this is really a 160 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:28,320 third dimension, as I said, where it's an additional 161 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,340 dimension to podcasting, certainly in automobiles, that 162 00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:37,680 hasn't really gotten a lot of love. But I but you know, 163 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:42,000 because, you know, even the idea of of rotating images by itself 164 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:48,030 is relatively new. But it's it's well understood in automobiles. 165 00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:51,900 So we could have all kinds of new things popping up there. And 166 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:54,210 I think a type equals is something to consider. 167 00:11:55,650 --> 00:12:01,590 Dave Jones: The Yeah, so let me let me add flavor text to what 168 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:07,740 you're saying. Because I think that or not, I don't really, I 169 00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:13,920 think I think your instinct is correct you the TOC. Toggle is 170 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,390 already there. True False. That solves an immediate issue. If 171 00:12:18,390 --> 00:12:24,720 you implement that, that sort of gets you over the hair on fire. 172 00:12:24,750 --> 00:12:29,070 Oh my god, what are these things do it in my chapters? So that's, 173 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,760 that's that's there. I want to add some flavor to that though, 174 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,660 because there's not is that a douchey thing? If I say I want 175 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:39,360 to add some flavor that's all said enough. I realize that 176 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:40,740 sounds kind of like a douche. Are you wearing 177 00:12:40,740 --> 00:12:46,680 Adam Curry: cargo pants when you say it or not gonna hit mute or 178 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,710 shorts on because No, you're in your underwear? Aren't you? 179 00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:54,060 Okay, stop. We don't We need no visuals. Are you streaming 180 00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:59,520 video? Can we see you on? The no agenda to buy? Yeah, okay, 181 00:12:59,550 --> 00:13:03,570 Dave Jones: I'm gonna let me let me back that up. Okay. Let me 182 00:13:03,570 --> 00:13:05,910 add some, some some color. 183 00:13:06,630 --> 00:13:08,160 Adam Curry: Racist. Yes. Okay. 184 00:13:09,090 --> 00:13:15,210 Dave Jones: This is no dairy down here. The type. So the TOC, 185 00:13:15,210 --> 00:13:21,420 really, it solves this problem, but it's not the intended 186 00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:26,460 solution to this problem. Like, you know, and this is, this is 187 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:31,980 part of this, this happens to all specifications. You you 188 00:13:31,980 --> 00:13:36,150 start where you know, you, you know, you start where you know, 189 00:13:36,510 --> 00:13:39,960 but it's like, Okay, here's the things we have in front of us. 190 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:46,470 And if you go too far, and try to envision everything that 191 00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:49,890 could possibly come in the future, you get it, you'll 192 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,510 you'll inevitably get it wrong and eff it up. So you really 193 00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:57,600 have to start with what is right in front of you. And that's 194 00:13:57,930 --> 00:14:01,860 that's kind of what we did is like okay, we have two use cases 195 00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:07,320 we have standard chapter modeling which is what has 196 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,220 always been there in like the ID three tags in the in the in in 197 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:14,640 the audio file and all these all these different chapter formats 198 00:14:15,270 --> 00:14:18,990 like that that's like your baseline we you need to have a 199 00:14:18,990 --> 00:14:22,740 table of contents for different content sections within the 200 00:14:22,740 --> 00:14:33,240 episode. But then we also had this other this other idea of if 201 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:39,570 T of having the chapters be editable by the crowd, which our 202 00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:43,800 crowd consists of drips got. I mean, like the crowd, the entire 203 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,100 crowd, 204 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,190 Adam Curry: one drip Scott is Drebin to drip Scott's a crowd. 205 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:52,890 Dave Jones: Yes, yes. So but but the idea there cloud cloud 206 00:14:52,890 --> 00:14:58,410 chapters is what enabled something like this thing to 207 00:14:58,410 --> 00:15:03,480 have to happen. Yes to be get in with. Yeah. So we have last time 208 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,770 I checked a couple months, you know, like, couple of months 209 00:15:07,770 --> 00:15:12,630 ago, we had like, around 13,000 listeners to this show a month. 210 00:15:12,630 --> 00:15:16,620 So I guarantee you some people have no idea what we're talking 211 00:15:16,620 --> 00:15:24,540 about the worst simply talking about when people send a boost, 212 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,510 should it show up as an event, a time marker in the chapters of 213 00:15:30,510 --> 00:15:35,250 the show? So without cloud based chapters, things like that 214 00:15:35,250 --> 00:15:39,210 wouldn't even be possible. Correct. So that's the two 215 00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:43,830 things we know. We have, we know that. You need chapters, 216 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:47,640 attached chapter bookmarks within the file within the 217 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,090 episode, and you also needed them to be editable. Now there's 218 00:15:51,090 --> 00:15:56,910 this other thing that came in from the TOC thing actually came 219 00:15:56,910 --> 00:16:04,680 in from when we imported the format from the previous 220 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:11,670 namespace right. Now it was it was Frederick Buurman. He has 221 00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:16,230 the he had this app, this Mac app called Chapter The Mac 222 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:19,230 chapters, I think is what was called Oh, basically just what 223 00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:25,830 in he had, he had a JSON format already. And ours when we looked 224 00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:28,830 at them, it this is like God, this is like three years right 225 00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:30,960 in the beginning. Yeah, right. In the beginning very early. 226 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,250 Yeah. So we looked, we found this sort of prior art, if you 227 00:16:35,250 --> 00:16:39,330 want to speak about JSON cloud chapters, where he was saying 228 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,900 where he had this format that long almost exactly matched the 229 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:46,500 format that we had been working on, right? So it's like, okay, 230 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:50,220 well, why don't we come by reached out to him? And like, 231 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:54,780 why don't we combine and make these formats? mesh together? 232 00:16:55,230 --> 00:17:00,780 That way, we immediately have a tool that already produces this 233 00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:06,360 format, which is your tool. And then you pay, we can say, okay, 234 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,270 hey, you won't cloud chapters go and use this tool. Now, this is 235 00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:15,120 before hyper capture. And so then he had in there, this idea 236 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:19,320 of this table of contents flag, which ended up but you look at 237 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,710 it, oh, that's a great idea. Sometimes you want to have a 238 00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:32,490 marker that happens in the chapters. That isn't visible as 239 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:37,200 a bookmark, but it's good isn't isn't event placeholder almost. 240 00:17:37,530 --> 00:17:45,120 So you could imagine something like a location tag or a or a 241 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:46,560 picture change, right? 242 00:17:46,590 --> 00:17:51,930 Adam Curry: Yes, exactly. Or the an ad or a or sponsor message? 243 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:58,500 Or could be, you know, a an MK Ultra zap? It could be yes. If 244 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,410 you look at it, then you get you get mind controlled any of that. 245 00:18:01,410 --> 00:18:01,830 Yes. 246 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,570 Dave Jones: All valid. And so then that so this, this idea of 247 00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:10,290 having a table of contents, a table of contents, visibility 248 00:18:10,290 --> 00:18:14,550 flag, true false, was very appealing. So we'll Yeah, let's 249 00:18:14,910 --> 00:18:22,320 pull that right, in. That, that is, that's what the intent was 250 00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:30,900 to have invisible things show up only in the podcast UI and not 251 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:32,760 in the chapter Table of Contents, 252 00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:35,280 Adam Curry: which is what and that's the disconnect, just to 253 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,000 add some color to your color. When people say color, when 254 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,330 people say you mess chapters up, what they're saying is you 255 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,180 because I they sent me screenshots. No one sent me a 256 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:49,290 screenshot of the UI of a square image and saying this is messed 257 00:18:49,290 --> 00:18:54,240 up now. They said, I can't skip ahead. I can't find where I was 258 00:18:54,480 --> 00:19:00,330 all. Absolutely one. I'm going to say it 100% Correct feedback, 259 00:19:01,050 --> 00:19:06,330 correct feedback? That's completely correct. And that 260 00:19:06,330 --> 00:19:12,120 table of contents to me, the literal is the table of contents 261 00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:14,640 of the content of the podcast. 262 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,760 Dave Jones: Right. But here's where I don't think that 263 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:25,290 ultimately the Table of Contents toggle, I think this is a short 264 00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:32,100 term fix that needs longer that needs a correct fix, which is 265 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:37,770 the type parameter right. So the because the table of contents is 266 00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:44,880 a hammer, you you are you are saying as the creator of the 267 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:50,790 chapters, you are saying, I don't want this visible, but 268 00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:56,130 some people might want it visible. I enjoy the chapters. I 269 00:19:56,130 --> 00:19:59,400 like the boosts in the chapters. I like them in the table of 270 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:05,940 contents. Huh, I enjoy that. I don't know. And I think, see, 271 00:20:05,940 --> 00:20:11,940 the only reason I've can say why I like it is because it's fun to 272 00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:16,620 me to actually use chapters a lot because I go back and forth. 273 00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:20,310 I skip and then I go back. You know what it became for me after 274 00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:21,210 using it for me, 275 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,500 Adam Curry: it became like a helipad. Yes. Like, hey, who 276 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:28,020 boosted what's and then you click in it to get the message. 277 00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:29,790 I understand what you're saying. Absolutely. It 278 00:20:29,790 --> 00:20:35,190 Dave Jones: was fun in to listen to last week's no agenda. And 279 00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:40,620 then I flipped open the chapters and see all all these boosts in 280 00:20:40,620 --> 00:20:44,700 there. And those boosts never get shown in no agenda. Because 281 00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:48,120 they're not it's, you know, because of Jhansi Dvorak, 282 00:20:48,450 --> 00:20:54,150 because it was fun to see that people are boosting and what 283 00:20:54,150 --> 00:20:56,730 they were, what their messages were, and all that kind of stuff 284 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,790 it to me, it adds to it. I like it. But that's just me 285 00:20:59,790 --> 00:21:05,760 personally, to see there. I like it. But sir, Libra hates it. 286 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:12,810 Adam Curry: The end with a with a capital H. Right. There's no 287 00:21:12,810 --> 00:21:16,230 Jesus in that mofo. I hate this. 288 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:22,290 Dave Jones: And the heat, so he hates it, I like it. That tells 289 00:21:22,290 --> 00:21:27,690 you that, that that tells you that the podcaster should not be 290 00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:31,620 controlling whether those things are visible in my app, it should 291 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:34,920 be me that controls whether they're visible. Therefore Table 292 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:41,190 of Contents isn't the isn't the appropriate long term fix. If we 293 00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:44,610 put a type parameter in there and say, Okay, this chapter 294 00:21:44,610 --> 00:21:50,790 object is of type boost, then I can go and toggle a flag in the 295 00:21:50,790 --> 00:21:54,540 settings of pod verse and say I want to see boosts in my 296 00:21:54,540 --> 00:22:01,140 chapters. But I but in Libra can say that he does not right. And 297 00:22:01,170 --> 00:22:06,450 and now it's our decision, not the podcasters decision. The 298 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:10,380 podcaster can still make that decision if they want to. But 299 00:22:10,380 --> 00:22:14,250 they probably don't want to. You know, that's that's a part that 300 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:19,980 is a personal preference. Like I'm saying that I'm saying I'm 301 00:22:19,980 --> 00:22:24,390 saying that you there are some things that should be controlled 302 00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:27,030 from the source. And they're shown some things that be should 303 00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:32,430 be controlled on the end user. And I think this is one of those 304 00:22:32,430 --> 00:22:35,910 things that most of the time should be controlled by the end 305 00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:42,030 user. And once we have a type parameter, then we can go in and 306 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,650 do this for all for other things that inevitably will pop up. 307 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:53,640 Adam Curry: So looking at the at the chapter namespace entry. It 308 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,150 feels like with what you're saying waypoints may be 309 00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:02,040 misplaced as an optional attribute, that might be a type 310 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:06,300 equals waypoint. Instead of it being an optional attribute 311 00:23:06,330 --> 00:23:09,150 equal to author title, podcast name, etc. 312 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:10,890 Dave Jones: Say that again. 313 00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:17,220 Adam Curry: So you look at the chapter object. And I'm just 314 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:23,460 taking it very literal. So the chapter object has a start time 315 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:30,600 and has a title, optional image URL, table of contents, and time 316 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:36,540 and location. So location feels to me like if you're going to do 317 00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:41,880 a type equals, that should be one of the types instead of a, I 318 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,910 don't know if anyone has implemented it as, as an 319 00:23:44,910 --> 00:23:48,750 optional attribute? I'm not sure. Good question. But it 320 00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:52,710 seems like you know, because that could be something that if 321 00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:56,430 it's a location, and I'm looking at the interface, not the Table 322 00:23:56,430 --> 00:23:59,940 of Contents, the interface they've made, it may pop up and 323 00:23:59,940 --> 00:24:04,530 show me a map with that actual location, or, you know, show me 324 00:24:04,530 --> 00:24:07,980 distance to that location or any of these different things, but 325 00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:14,700 that are linked back. So that to me would be an X excellent use 326 00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:17,730 of type equals location. 327 00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:21,480 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's this. That's a good 328 00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:24,270 that's a good one that then that that is probably a good thing to 329 00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:26,790 ask. We need a pole. 330 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:31,950 Adam Curry: Oh, God. Oh, no, we know it was me. I'm Paul. 331 00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:38,100 Dave Jones: We need we need to know if any ad developers have 332 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:41,850 any bad developers are using the location spec in there. I 333 00:24:41,850 --> 00:24:46,590 suspect that they are not just ever seen it. 334 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,890 Adam Curry: But also I can imagine where you would have a 335 00:24:49,890 --> 00:24:55,080 table of contents, but you might actually have in between two 336 00:24:55,110 --> 00:25:00,210 markers, visible and thus clickable and navigatable. In 337 00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:03,360 the table of contents, you might have 20 images in between the 338 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:07,320 just flipped real fast. I mean, yeah, you might you might have 339 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,220 video I mean, let's why not 340 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,950 Dave Jones: have like a flipbook the why not? 341 00:25:14,850 --> 00:25:20,550 Adam Curry: Yeah, have a stick figure going, hey rotoscope 342 00:25:20,550 --> 00:25:25,800 rotoscope red is hope. Yeah. And, and I really like this 343 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,910 because we've and again to me, I learned so much from this 344 00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:33,000 exercise and thank you all for your passionate feedback, 345 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,750 because I really learned how important that table of contents 346 00:25:36,750 --> 00:25:43,530 is for a lot of people. But I'm, I'm more like you. Were I as I 347 00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:45,960 said, I kind of use a heavy Pat Oh, who boosted? And who would 348 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,860 they have to say? But there's that can be all kinds of 349 00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:54,600 information in that that is an entirely new dimension. Now I 350 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,210 know. And I don't even have to look at the chat room to see 351 00:25:57,210 --> 00:26:00,840 Daniel J. Lewis saying this needs to be in a completely 352 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:06,930 separate thing it has to be, but I'm what I'm worried about is we 353 00:26:06,930 --> 00:26:10,050 have something that's working, it's just the interpretation of 354 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:14,400 what a chapter is, is what we're hung up on here. I mean, I'm not 355 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,440 hung up on it. But to me, everybody who uses chapters in 356 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,430 the traditional ID three tag manner, which included the Table 357 00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:29,430 of Contents optional. Boolean, is using it in a very specific 358 00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:34,770 way. And the display in the UI. That's where all the magic can 359 00:26:34,770 --> 00:26:40,950 happen. And chapters for me, is it's an exactly what what it 360 00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:45,990 says on the package. There's a title and a timestamp. It 361 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:49,710 doesn't matter. It's any any content in there should be 362 00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:54,510 valid, not in the table of contents. Because we know that's 363 00:26:54,510 --> 00:26:57,540 a use case, that's a use case that you know, we'd be breaking 364 00:26:57,540 --> 00:27:01,080 we we broke people. People got broken from this. 365 00:27:01,470 --> 00:27:04,530 Dave Jones: They did a lot more than I thought it was they have 366 00:27:04,530 --> 00:27:08,610 a lot of negative feedback. I did not anticipate the negative. 367 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:13,050 I did not anticipate the volume of people that did not like 368 00:27:13,050 --> 00:27:13,560 this. 369 00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:17,400 Adam Curry: But I loved that because it immediately showed me 370 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,030 what was wrong. Within a week of I went away within days, like 371 00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:26,010 Oh, I see what's wrong. I immediately pinged Spurlock, I 372 00:27:26,010 --> 00:27:30,270 said, Would you please add TOC equals false to every single 373 00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:32,130 Bookstagram that you put in the chapters? And you did that 374 00:27:32,130 --> 00:27:33,810 immediately? It dropped 375 00:27:33,810 --> 00:27:35,940 Dave Jones: the talk? Yeah, yeah. Dropped the talk. 376 00:27:37,230 --> 00:27:38,580 Adam Curry: Like that dropped the talk. 377 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,590 Dave Jones: On Daniel, on your, you know, on Daniels, you know, 378 00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:49,290 he really wants this thing to hold it to be completely 379 00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:52,500 different. We're not going to rip the chapter spec out and 380 00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:56,700 start from scratch, it would be so disruptive. Yeah, it's not 381 00:27:56,700 --> 00:28:01,890 it's just not it's not happening. But I don't think but 382 00:28:01,890 --> 00:28:07,920 that's not incompatible with what you want. See, like, in the 383 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,180 evolution of chapters into a font into a file that contains 384 00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:13,590 lots of different things 385 00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:16,590 Adam Curry: that is happening. It's a natural evolution, it's 386 00:28:16,590 --> 00:28:19,650 Dave Jones: here it is, yes, it is a natural evolution, the only 387 00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:26,400 thing that is the the the that's what this is doing right now, 388 00:28:26,850 --> 00:28:31,680 what happened is we hit it, we hit a new use case, we see that 389 00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:36,810 the spec isn't handling this in an ideal way. So now we're going 390 00:28:36,810 --> 00:28:43,110 to go and add the probe, extend the spec to make it fit the use 391 00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:47,460 case. So that know that developers don't have to rip and 392 00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:50,730 replace all they had to do is now go in and tweak their 393 00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:55,290 implementation right for this new this new town. And I imagine 394 00:28:55,290 --> 00:28:57,480 over to 10 years from now, there's probably gonna be tons 395 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,160 of stuff in the chapters. Yeah, yes. Yes. Major and calling it a 396 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,360 chapter is it completely irrelevant? Right, it doesn't 397 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,960 matter what it's called. That's, that's only in in this document 398 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,410 that no end user ever sees. Right? So the, you know, the 399 00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:19,200 the. So as far as Daniels proposal, Dana's proposal is 400 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,910 going to happen. It is happening as time goes by. But and that's 401 00:29:23,910 --> 00:29:28,260 why, but you can't anticipate what you need in the future. And 402 00:29:28,260 --> 00:29:31,560 go ahead and put it in now, because we would have never been 403 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,180 able to anticipate this 404 00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:36,060 Adam Curry: case. Never, never would have gotten this far. No, 405 00:29:36,060 --> 00:29:36,840 we there's no 406 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,910 Dave Jones: way we would have known this what happened three 407 00:29:38,910 --> 00:29:42,150 years ago. So you just have to respond. You just have to 408 00:29:42,150 --> 00:29:46,830 respond to this thing. And I think the spec is the format of 409 00:29:46,830 --> 00:29:53,100 the file is flexible enough to handle. I mean, if we do it in a 410 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:56,730 responsible way, is flexible to handle tons of stuff. 411 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,280 Adam Curry: Yeah. Which I think is what Daniel was talking 412 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,090 about, and I can And I can envision several use cases and 413 00:30:03,090 --> 00:30:08,130 again, brought to you by messages sponsor messages 414 00:30:08,130 --> 00:30:11,610 scrolling lower thirds. I mean, this could be an entire new 415 00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:15,450 interface for the people that pretend they watch podcasts 416 00:30:15,450 --> 00:30:19,860 instead of listen to them might actually enjoy. You can just 417 00:30:19,860 --> 00:30:22,710 have to have you and me a picture of you and me animated 418 00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:26,160 with headphones on in front of me. I like like Dame Jennifer 419 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,060 does for animated no agenda. I mean, you could do all kinds of 420 00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:30,810 stuff with that. 421 00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:37,770 Dave Jones: Yeah. And so the Yeah. So that is the chapters is 422 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,430 it's interesting. I've been thinking this week. One thing 423 00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:48,600 that we've talked a lot about is super chat. And having a 424 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:54,720 timestamped way of playing back events that happen in the 425 00:30:54,750 --> 00:31:00,540 podcast, went upon playback upon later playback. So we're having 426 00:31:00,540 --> 00:31:05,160 a live show right now. People are boosting, people are talking 427 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:11,370 in the chat room. You know, when you go to replay that podcast 428 00:31:11,370 --> 00:31:15,090 later, that podcast episode, how are you going to pull that 429 00:31:15,090 --> 00:31:18,840 information back in so that it looks like what you know what 430 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,510 YouTube does during during a live broadcast, when you watch 431 00:31:21,510 --> 00:31:24,600 the replay, right, and you have the comments coming in the 432 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,380 boosts whatever they call from chat, the super chats come in. 433 00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:34,500 Like, that's always been the kind of a dream, a dream and a 434 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:37,680 complicated build out, you know, you you go back and forth. And 435 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,620 you say, well, maybe we could do it this way. Maybe we could do 436 00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:46,650 it that way. And this is the first time I've seen something 437 00:31:46,650 --> 00:31:51,810 that sort of meets that, that go on, because now what you do is 438 00:31:51,810 --> 00:31:57,060 you take you take it, you can take this and drop it into a 439 00:31:57,060 --> 00:32:01,560 super chat. And now you are sort of replaying the events back as 440 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,400 they happen. Totally. You could. Here's what I'm saying. And this 441 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,210 goes along again with Daniel's proposal. Now you're using the 442 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:17,340 chapters file, not as the podcast app could use it. The 443 00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:22,440 podcast app could use like pod verse or podcast guru could use 444 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:28,590 the chapters file for displaying Table of Contents. A replay of a 445 00:32:28,590 --> 00:32:32,970 Super Chat version of this live show could use it and just 446 00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:36,750 ignore the cont the cloud chat the table of contents and only 447 00:32:36,750 --> 00:32:41,280 show the boosts you can do. It's it's sucking out whatever it 448 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,320 needs. And if you make that 449 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,900 Adam Curry: user definable, that's even more fun. 450 00:32:47,010 --> 00:32:50,220 Dave Jones: Yeah, and then so here's so let's go further with 451 00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:57,150 this. In order to make that happen, we could in order to 452 00:32:57,150 --> 00:33:02,760 make that more reliable, what we could do is I'll also add a UTC 453 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:09,600 timestamp into the boot into these boosts. So that when the 454 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,470 boost comes into the chapters file, it comes in with the 455 00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:16,530 original timestamp of when the boost happened, 456 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:22,890 Adam Curry: I think reflex is already doing that. It says this 457 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,540 boost was sent six hours 32 minutes after the show was 458 00:33:27,540 --> 00:33:28,200 released. 459 00:33:30,450 --> 00:33:34,140 Dave Jones: Okay, so that if I'm looking at I'm looking at it 460 00:33:34,140 --> 00:33:40,110 right now. That's what I saw wrong raw JSON of one of, of one 461 00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:46,200 of our episodes. And there's not what we need is a property like 462 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,750 a ctoc False. What we need is another property it and this is 463 00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:55,530 just me spitballing Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we, if we had 464 00:33:55,530 --> 00:34:00,900 another property that was like this, like, let's call it 465 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:07,110 universal time, or you know, UTC colon, and then a Unix timestamp 466 00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:11,040 of the UTC of the moment that the boost happened in in real 467 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:17,970 world time. Then, if you had that, then when you play it 468 00:34:17,970 --> 00:34:23,310 back, you can say okay, the lava event started at this moment. 469 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,840 And then the boost happened at this moment and you just do you 470 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,780 just diff the seconds out and know when to show when to show 471 00:34:30,780 --> 00:34:35,100 it the other than the start rather than this because the 472 00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:40,290 start time. You may not always match. 473 00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:43,260 Adam Curry: Right universal right and and that goes for 474 00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:47,280 shows that are recorded live before a dead studio audience. 475 00:34:48,030 --> 00:34:52,200 Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah. So I mean, you know, these are these 476 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,220 are all spitball ideas, but this is the idea. This is. To me. 477 00:34:56,220 --> 00:35:00,210 This shows the power of what's possible with with doing this So 478 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:03,630 I'm with you. This is fantastic. I mean, this is the spirit of 479 00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:07,410 what Daniel want. And yes, I think it's, you know, it's 480 00:35:07,410 --> 00:35:08,910 happening naturally. 481 00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:17,340 Adam Curry: So Daniel says in the chat room, why separate 482 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:22,110 booster grams from comments? I know, I would I want to say 483 00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:27,090 right now, this has nothing to do with comments. I agree. Cross 484 00:35:27,090 --> 00:35:33,150 app comments is a spec. I implemented, I publish it. And, 485 00:35:33,450 --> 00:35:39,090 and it's never taken off. For whatever reason. There's, I 486 00:35:39,090 --> 00:35:42,690 believe there's multiple ways to do it, not just activity pub, 487 00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:48,210 I'm I'm publishing to activity pub. It's in most of the app 488 00:35:48,210 --> 00:35:52,590 somewhere, or some of the app somewhere. And for whatever 489 00:35:52,590 --> 00:35:56,370 reason, it hasn't taken off. I disagree fundamentally, with 490 00:35:56,370 --> 00:36:00,600 putting comments. These are not comments, booster, grams are not 491 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,040 comments, they're booster grams. 492 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,700 Dave Jones: Maybe I took his comment to mean, wash it and 493 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,250 they go not in the chapters file. But then this other 494 00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:13,890 comments file. There were comments thing, instead of the 495 00:36:13,890 --> 00:36:21,030 chapters? And that's, that's a messy answer. But I think that 496 00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:26,190 the the issue for now, is that chapters are something people 497 00:36:26,190 --> 00:36:31,050 use comments or something that they do that nobody uses. Right? 498 00:36:32,220 --> 00:36:35,520 Adam Curry: Yeah, for whatever reason, for whatever reason, you 499 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,060 know, it's just it is what it is. If there's anything, then go 500 00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:39,210 with 501 00:36:39,210 --> 00:36:42,360 Dave Jones: what works, I mean, like it when people tell you, 502 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,050 you know, you can't make people use the thing. Now, and when 503 00:36:49,050 --> 00:36:55,470 people, you have to, you have to, you have to get like skate 504 00:36:55,470 --> 00:36:59,160 to where the puck is, instead of, you know, trying, instead of 505 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:05,640 trying to always go for the goal, I mean, for your idea of 506 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,350 what the goal is going to be. Ideally, ideally, all of these 507 00:37:10,350 --> 00:37:15,480 things would be distinct streams of data that are coming in and 508 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,120 accessible at any period of time. But the podcast apps, I 509 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,700 mean, it's a struggle just to get the podcast apps to support 510 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:28,290 chapters, that we have a good batch of apps that do support 511 00:37:28,290 --> 00:37:29,430 chapters, that 512 00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:32,430 Adam Curry: almost every single one supports them. This point, 513 00:37:32,430 --> 00:37:35,580 oh, yeah, this is what's so beautiful about it. It's an E, 514 00:37:35,580 --> 00:37:39,240 it's easy. And, and that's what I that was what was so powerful 515 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:44,100 to me, is without the app developers doing a single thing, 516 00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:45,780 we made it worse. 517 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,500 Dave Jones: They got it, they got they got a they lost a star 518 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:53,070 for free. 519 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,370 Adam Curry: It was, you know, it was it reminded me of one of the 520 00:37:56,370 --> 00:38:01,890 biggest complaints that I hear that I find so sad, is people 521 00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:05,100 say to me, you know, I tried that to fill in the blank app 522 00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:08,280 out there. And it gave me an ad before the show that I was 523 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,060 listening to. Yeah, you know, and so the apps get blamed for 524 00:38:12,060 --> 00:38:17,580 these things. And, and, of course, in this case, it has 525 00:38:17,580 --> 00:38:20,370 nothing to do with the app, it has to do with you know, with a 526 00:38:20,580 --> 00:38:24,600 with a hacking away, but a completely valid hack. But I 527 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:31,080 pissed off my audience. And I And of course, I think in 528 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,230 general people, you know, the apps got blamed in an odd way, 529 00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:37,800 even though most people who complained understand that, 530 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,940 like, you know, whatever it is, this sucks. But, but but I 531 00:38:41,940 --> 00:38:45,570 really, really evaluated what was going on. And I we don't 532 00:38:45,570 --> 00:38:49,710 have to hash over it again. But I think this is this is an 533 00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:54,900 excellent idea. The quick fix for everybody is to see equals 534 00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:59,490 false is now being published. And I say that with the utmost 535 00:38:59,490 --> 00:39:01,980 respect, because I'm not a developer, and I know you have 536 00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:04,500 to publish a new version. There's all kinds of stuff that 537 00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:08,310 goes on with that. There's not It's not like, you know, presto, 538 00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:11,190 it's done. It's fixed for everybody. No, yeah, it's a 539 00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:15,960 pain, it's definitely a pain. So perhaps we can we can add to 540 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:22,110 this the, you know, get an all in one, go and start with the 541 00:39:22,110 --> 00:39:26,310 type equals as an addition to the spec. So we can at least put 542 00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:29,310 a couple of things in there. So booster ground would be one 543 00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:33,000 location would be another so that we can at least start to 544 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,670 build out our list of things that can then be parsed out and 545 00:39:38,910 --> 00:39:44,100 the app can either decide to let the probably let let the user 546 00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:47,970 decide what they want to see or determine how they want to show 547 00:39:47,970 --> 00:39:49,770 it. You know, it'd be easier if like, Oh, this is a booster 548 00:39:49,770 --> 00:39:53,280 gram. I think it's cool. If in my app, it shows up this way. 549 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,870 Whatever that may be. But I think we can really build this 550 00:39:57,870 --> 00:40:01,260 out so chapters to me is just you know, The table of contents 551 00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:07,800 is clear it's defined the what a chapter marker is is blue skies. 552 00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:12,330 Dave Jones: But yeah, that's it. Reading from rules for standards 553 00:40:12,330 --> 00:40:15,750 makers remember which is the develop the developmental bible 554 00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:20,430 of podcasting 2.0. If pressed if practice deviates from the spec, 555 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:24,660 change the spec in writing the spec for RSS oh point nine one, 556 00:40:24,690 --> 00:40:27,630 I found that a lot of the limits imposed by the earlier spec were 557 00:40:27,630 --> 00:40:31,260 being ignored by developers. So I left those limits out of the 558 00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:35,550 point 191 spec, nobody complained. Right? That that's 559 00:40:35,580 --> 00:40:39,120 that's the thing. You can't force developers to do anything. 560 00:40:39,390 --> 00:40:44,640 You have to watch what they do. And then adapt your desires to 561 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,050 meet the reality of what they are doing. The defense is wrong. 562 00:40:52,290 --> 00:40:59,040 Thanks. Like Rand Drescher. You got like a completely wrong the 563 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:00,690 defense he's wrong. 564 00:41:03,270 --> 00:41:10,500 Adam Curry: Wrong. That's that's what's your face from? Ticking, 565 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:15,210 ticking, ticking my cousin Vinnie. Yeah, okay. Marissa, 566 00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:21,510 Marissa Tomi. So, so, to me that, like, we learned a big 567 00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:26,760 thing. I'm incredibly happy, we learned this. I love that 568 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:31,080 everybody gave such Animated Feedback. And to me, I think 569 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,200 this is a much bigger turning point than we all realize, 570 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,640 because we have the framework. Now we can expand that. And, and 571 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,060 the sky is the limit. And I'm going to revisit Daniel J's 572 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:46,200 proposal for all the other stuff that's in there. That can become 573 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,690 a type A type of Chapter object. With the quick fix being 574 00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:54,570 respected, toc equals false. 575 00:41:55,950 --> 00:41:58,380 Dave Jones: Yeah. And that's and that, that should be in there 576 00:41:58,380 --> 00:42:02,220 anyway. I mean, that kind of that. That's, you know, that 577 00:42:02,220 --> 00:42:06,030 should is a dirty word. So I try not to say that, but that I 578 00:42:06,030 --> 00:42:08,580 mean, if you it is part of the spec, and has been there since 579 00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:12,570 the beginning. So it, it is a good idea. I won't say should it 580 00:42:12,570 --> 00:42:17,280 is a good idea to follow the full spec and support TOC. 581 00:42:17,970 --> 00:42:20,160 Adam Curry: Right? And we and we know that this can happen 582 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,040 because we went through a couple of weeks of everyone upping 583 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,030 their game on to V's same thing, you know, people are sending 584 00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:30,150 basic info, not everyone. And we have that lovely grid that 585 00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:34,800 Spurlock put together. So there's, you know, there's a lot 586 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,340 of unfortunately, a lot of work to be done. But you know, we all 587 00:42:38,340 --> 00:42:43,980 get up to speed. Man, we're really, we're really good 588 00:42:43,980 --> 00:42:45,420 cooking with gas, as you would say. 589 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,880 Dave Jones: Yeah, I think it's I think this has been a learned 590 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,910 this has been a great learning experience, because we we don't 591 00:42:53,910 --> 00:43:02,010 know what all can happen. Here. This is like I said, while good. 592 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:08,820 This is a thing I was not prepared for to see. Then I saw 593 00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:12,990 it. And I loved it. Then saw that other people hated it. And 594 00:43:12,990 --> 00:43:16,380 the whole thing was just, it was just vast. It was a fascinating. 595 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,130 Like, experiment. 596 00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:23,520 Adam Curry: Like yes, wonderful. Yeah, I agree. It was it was 597 00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:27,510 like a real aha moment. Then for me, as I said, like, wow, 598 00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:30,930 people, you really rely on these chapter markers. That's a huge 599 00:43:30,930 --> 00:43:34,410 deal. Now, I had no idea. I've always wondered, you know, how 600 00:43:34,410 --> 00:43:38,430 much people care about chapters will now we know. He's very 601 00:43:38,430 --> 00:43:43,500 passionate, very passionate. Very, very passionate. So Okay. 602 00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:50,910 Cool. I'd like to move on to another topic here. For a couple 603 00:43:50,910 --> 00:43:56,430 of reasons. The headline is, Spotify is changing how it pays 604 00:43:56,430 --> 00:43:59,040 artists with a new streaming royalty model. 605 00:43:59,670 --> 00:44:02,010 Dave Jones: Oh, I thought you were going as I thought you were 606 00:44:02,010 --> 00:44:04,800 gonna go to Spotify as profitable high five. 607 00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:10,260 Adam Curry: Well, I mean, yeah. Okay. If you take out costs, 608 00:44:10,860 --> 00:44:16,500 payroll taxes, yeah. Okay. Operational profit. The headline 609 00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:21,810 reads is very cute. But no, if I really look through all the all 610 00:44:21,810 --> 00:44:26,370 the podcasts Industrial Complex news from this week, what I'm 611 00:44:26,370 --> 00:44:32,460 seeing is advertising is up, but it's really only inserted stuff. 612 00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:36,180 And that's like, it's 15% of all advertising. Ed, what it tells 613 00:44:36,180 --> 00:44:39,210 me is, advertising sucks. Things are not going well with the 614 00:44:39,210 --> 00:44:43,620 podcast industrial complex, my personal opinion. And I'm not 615 00:44:43,620 --> 00:44:49,170 sponsored by Spotify. So, to me, that was actually Paul throt, 616 00:44:49,170 --> 00:44:52,230 who had a pretty good breakdown. I'll put the link in the show 617 00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:55,770 notes. He says this is a very interesting way of of of 618 00:44:55,770 --> 00:44:56,910 reporting profit. 619 00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:02,400 Dave Jones: Yeah. If we If we suspend for the moment the idea 620 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,450 that profit is having more money at the end, then you did all 621 00:45:06,450 --> 00:45:08,820 Adam Curry: your fu paid your mortgage and all that. 622 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:11,580 Dave Jones: Yes, yes. If you take that out for the moment, 623 00:45:11,580 --> 00:45:12,780 then yes, they were profitable. 624 00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:17,039 Adam Curry: Now, of course, you have to add to that they fired a 625 00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:21,449 lot of people that and literally the, the EC and the CFO were 626 00:45:21,449 --> 00:45:24,149 saying, Well, you know, we reduced the excess fixed 627 00:45:24,149 --> 00:45:28,229 expenses, which is always people, and we raised our 628 00:45:28,229 --> 00:45:31,649 monthly rate. Okay, so yeah, so you got a little bit of a 629 00:45:31,649 --> 00:45:35,489 difference there. But I but just skipping over that, because it's 630 00:45:35,489 --> 00:45:40,139 more interesting to me, in light of remote item and value for 631 00:45:40,139 --> 00:45:44,699 value music shows, which I want to talk about for a second. So 632 00:45:44,699 --> 00:45:48,599 this, and billboard kind of put a negative spin on it, but it's 633 00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:51,029 easy to see the negative spin, I'll just read the opening 634 00:45:51,029 --> 00:45:54,239 paragraph. Spotify is changing how it pays artists new 635 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,439 streaming royalty model, a new threshold of minimum annual 636 00:45:58,439 --> 00:46:01,769 streams that attract must meet before it starts to generate 637 00:46:01,769 --> 00:46:06,539 royalties, the threshold, according to en BW, I don't know 638 00:46:06,539 --> 00:46:09,329 what that is, Will music business worldwide Thank you 639 00:46:10,259 --> 00:46:15,269 will D monetize tracks that had previously received 0.5% of 640 00:46:15,269 --> 00:46:19,619 Spotify is royalty pool, which I can only imagine is a very large 641 00:46:19,619 --> 00:46:23,099 amount of people who are just putting stuff up there and 642 00:46:23,099 --> 00:46:26,669 hoping that something happens from financial penalties for 643 00:46:26,669 --> 00:46:29,909 music distributors and labels when fraudulent activity on 644 00:46:29,909 --> 00:46:33,419 tracks when they have uploaded to Spotify has been detected. So 645 00:46:33,689 --> 00:46:36,419 they are now admitting that they're scamming going on 646 00:46:36,419 --> 00:46:41,039 surprised as gambling going on there. And a minimum play time 647 00:46:41,039 --> 00:46:44,699 length that non music noise tracks such as bird sounds, or 648 00:46:44,699 --> 00:46:49,679 white noise must reach to generate royalties. So I asked. 649 00:46:50,909 --> 00:46:54,779 I asked Julie Costello to respond to have a quick text 650 00:46:54,779 --> 00:46:58,019 from her. This is my trick with her, I send a question on text 651 00:46:58,019 --> 00:47:04,769 message. So she's limited. The thumbs. So they've been talking 652 00:47:04,769 --> 00:47:07,349 about this for some time. Theoretically, this would help 653 00:47:07,349 --> 00:47:11,099 artists like Aynsley, quote, a professionally aspiring artist 654 00:47:11,339 --> 00:47:15,179 who gets lost in the 100,000 tracks a day noise. I really 655 00:47:15,179 --> 00:47:18,089 can't give an opinion until it's in play interpretation. I 656 00:47:18,089 --> 00:47:20,549 believe it when I see it, they've been talking about 657 00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:23,969 artists first for years. Yeah, the music business has always 658 00:47:23,969 --> 00:47:27,209 talked about artists first. But we have not experienced any 659 00:47:27,209 --> 00:47:30,149 artists first relationship with either distributors or Apple 660 00:47:30,149 --> 00:47:33,179 music players, the label still holds the purse strings. So they 661 00:47:33,179 --> 00:47:36,059 get the attention without a deal or label, we won't get noticed. 662 00:47:36,059 --> 00:47:41,609 And I think that's true. And this plays right into the, I 663 00:47:41,609 --> 00:47:44,999 think the opportunity that has just been exploding of value for 664 00:47:44,999 --> 00:47:51,299 value music in podcasts, which you can call a music show or 665 00:47:51,299 --> 00:47:54,089 whatever you want to call it. The other day, I just, I played 666 00:47:54,089 --> 00:47:58,469 one track in encouraging the keeper, we've played a track 667 00:47:58,469 --> 00:48:05,219 before. And RSS blue is the first out of the gate to include 668 00:48:05,219 --> 00:48:10,199 this in their hosting service. And I was I was hoping that I 669 00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:13,859 know that there was an interview done that Sam did for podcasts 670 00:48:13,859 --> 00:48:16,529 weekly review, but for whatever reason, it didn't make it into 671 00:48:16,529 --> 00:48:20,339 the show. But Dobby Das is announcing it today. So I want 672 00:48:20,339 --> 00:48:23,309 to make sure that we help him. And I'm going to start sending 673 00:48:23,309 --> 00:48:29,369 music over there. I went through a demo account. And it's a very 674 00:48:29,369 --> 00:48:32,309 it's a very cool way to have you seen it was a very cool way that 675 00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:37,979 he did on this not saying yeah, so he was second when there's 676 00:48:37,979 --> 00:48:45,569 actually a link. So the way he's he's done this is he has the 677 00:48:45,569 --> 00:48:51,539 music lookup, which is very similar to what Steven B did 678 00:48:51,539 --> 00:48:55,169 with split kit. He has the music lookup so you can look for an 679 00:48:55,169 --> 00:49:00,419 artist you can then tag him book okay, this is this is either 680 00:49:00,449 --> 00:49:03,089 before you make the show or after you've recorded the show 681 00:49:03,089 --> 00:49:06,119 either way doesn't matter if you do it before you do the show is 682 00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:11,459 very similar where you get a you can download all the tracks it 683 00:49:11,459 --> 00:49:14,009 zips it up for you so you can download them and then put them 684 00:49:14,009 --> 00:49:17,669 into your show. And the way he's done the interface for adding 685 00:49:17,669 --> 00:49:20,999 the value time splits aka the magic wallet switching 686 00:49:20,999 --> 00:49:24,149 technology is through the chapters files, surprise, 687 00:49:24,149 --> 00:49:29,969 surprise, just just to make things more interesting. So you 688 00:49:29,969 --> 00:49:35,579 so you download the chapter file a JSON, which then has all of 689 00:49:35,579 --> 00:49:40,229 those tracks inserted, and then you upload and I may be saying 690 00:49:40,229 --> 00:49:44,039 this wrong for the flow. But basically, you can upload your 691 00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:48,419 chapter file which will include all the VTS time splits in there 692 00:49:48,449 --> 00:49:51,749 and you can add it to an existing chapter file. So if you 693 00:49:51,749 --> 00:49:53,849 know that does it doesn't mean it has to dominate your 694 00:49:53,849 --> 00:50:00,449 chapters. And then you manually enter the time to start Time, 695 00:50:00,659 --> 00:50:06,419 and I think the end time of each song. And then you publish, and 696 00:50:06,419 --> 00:50:10,589 it has the value TimeSlips baked right into your feed. Yeah, 697 00:50:10,859 --> 00:50:12,839 there's no, there's no step six. 698 00:50:17,369 --> 00:50:20,909 Dave Jones: Oh, okay. That's, that's an interesting way to do 699 00:50:20,909 --> 00:50:21,179 it. 700 00:50:21,899 --> 00:50:24,419 Adam Curry: Well, I liked it, because chapters are familiar. 701 00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:30,059 You know, are familiar for two, basically, you're uploading a 702 00:50:30,059 --> 00:50:33,449 chapter file, which has been semi created for you. And then 703 00:50:33,449 --> 00:50:37,169 you can add to that, or do whatever you want. And then you 704 00:50:37,169 --> 00:50:43,739 just have to hit the time codes. Yeah. So it's in a process that 705 00:50:43,739 --> 00:50:48,389 his customers already understand with the chapter file just now 706 00:50:48,389 --> 00:50:50,789 with the addition of music and setting the timecode. 707 00:50:52,230 --> 00:50:54,960 Dave Jones: Okay, so that that just makes it Where are they? 708 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,290 It's not a new thing to learn for them. They already kind of 709 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,420 Yeah, exactly. Already. Exactly. 710 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,600 Adam Curry: Exactly. And I'm going to be sending people over 711 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,380 as of today, because I got deejays banging on my door, who 712 00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:10,770 already have produced shows and they're ready to go. And I told 713 00:51:10,770 --> 00:51:16,710 them, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Halt? Yes. So 714 00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:20,520 I think that's dynamite. And in general, what and of course, 715 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,230 he's very nimble, because you know, smaller Adobe Das is doing 716 00:51:25,230 --> 00:51:27,960 is he just knocking it out of the park? Man is fantastic. The 717 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:28,710 stuff he's doing 718 00:51:29,850 --> 00:51:33,720 Dave Jones: this? That's it? Yeah, this this is I'm sorry, he 719 00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:37,170 Adam Curry: just he just boosted n times for value times points 720 00:51:37,170 --> 00:51:39,630 are calculated based on audio duration. Okay. So you're gonna 721 00:51:39,630 --> 00:51:41,430 have to do the start time it does the end time 722 00:51:42,330 --> 00:51:44,880 Dave Jones: automatically pulls it pulls that information from 723 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:44,970 it. 724 00:51:45,870 --> 00:51:48,630 Adam Curry: Exactly, exactly. And it does, you know, in the 725 00:51:48,630 --> 00:51:52,230 chapters, you have nice little Albemarle, the link to the 726 00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:57,810 whatever is in the link of the of the value time split. And as 727 00:51:57,810 --> 00:52:02,520 I said, you can add it Oh, yeah, you can set the value the share 728 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:09,630 value. Just like just like the big boys do it. It's it. Yeah. 729 00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:13,680 And you can add one, basically, you can edit the chapters, and 730 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,680 you could set that in yourself. You know? 731 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,030 Dave Jones: So where's the I guess the lookup is using the is 732 00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:22,440 using us? I guess? 733 00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:26,580 Adam Curry: Yeah, I think so. He has a song lookup. I don't know 734 00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:27,000 if he's 735 00:52:27,330 --> 00:52:28,170 Dave Jones: on dates or something? 736 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,890 Adam Curry: No, I think he's either. Well, he's gonna, he's 737 00:52:31,890 --> 00:52:33,870 gonna boost the grandmas in a minute and tell us he's either 738 00:52:33,870 --> 00:52:40,710 using directly from the API or maybe, maybe he's doing maybe 739 00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:43,890 he's getting a copy and doing some more local for quicker 740 00:52:43,890 --> 00:52:47,760 lookup? I don't know. Okay, thank you, by the way, Steven 741 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,770 Bell. In the split kit, he has now made it so that you can 742 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,970 quickly peruse through all the most recently added reverse 743 00:52:56,970 --> 00:53:01,200 chronological order songs. So I don't have to go to five 744 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,480 different places to try and find everything. 745 00:53:04,140 --> 00:53:06,360 Dave Jones: What do you mean, are you talking about across all 746 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:07,800 a split kit or just you. 747 00:53:08,250 --> 00:53:12,600 Adam Curry: So he queries the index. So also, if it was added 748 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,250 from wave lake, or added from, from music side project, or 749 00:53:17,250 --> 00:53:20,970 someone doing if it's in the index, it's now immediately 750 00:53:20,970 --> 00:53:25,200 available in the split kit for my workflow. So my workflow is I 751 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,470 want to I want to check all the new songs that come in. So I 752 00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:30,660 have to go to all these different places to find the new 753 00:53:30,660 --> 00:53:33,600 songs. Now. There's one place for me it's a split kit. I've 754 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,450 been there and the most recent additions are at the top. 755 00:53:37,380 --> 00:53:40,920 Dave Jones: Oh, I see. So he's Yeah, so he's looking at that's, 756 00:53:41,130 --> 00:53:46,320 that's probably why he wanted to filter on recently added music 757 00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:46,830 shows. 758 00:53:46,860 --> 00:53:49,710 Adam Curry: Here's Dolby das paying us to give us answers. 759 00:53:50,430 --> 00:53:54,060 5000 SATs again, I have a local copy of the DB to enable fuzzy 760 00:53:54,060 --> 00:53:57,600 search. I also resolve fountain and pod verse track links, if 761 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,170 that's how DJs find their music. There you go. 762 00:54:01,740 --> 00:54:06,360 Dave Jones: Low beautiful view of the DB. Yeah. The local copy. 763 00:54:06,509 --> 00:54:09,659 Adam Curry: Yes. dB R dB, I guess. 764 00:54:10,110 --> 00:54:12,450 Dave Jones: Is that Yeah, that must be the weekly download. And 765 00:54:12,450 --> 00:54:15,060 so then he's he's making a fuzzy 766 00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:17,700 Adam Curry: and he may he may be doing he may be checking 767 00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:19,110 periodically to update. 768 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,750 Dave Jones: That's, I love that. Okay. So I love that people love 769 00:54:24,750 --> 00:54:28,050 it when people grab the database and do their own thing. Yeah, 770 00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:32,070 it's more. It's more decentralized than everybody 771 00:54:32,070 --> 00:54:35,160 just simply pointing to us. Which which I don't mind people 772 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,500 using us as well. We It was while we're here while we exist, 773 00:54:37,500 --> 00:54:40,800 but it is very cool to see people just grabbing the 774 00:54:41,340 --> 00:54:45,990 database and running their own thing. Yes, exactly. That's a 775 00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:47,010 great thing to see. 776 00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:52,080 Adam Curry: I'm so tickled by all of this. I really am. It's 777 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,010 fantastic. 778 00:54:54,270 --> 00:54:56,070 Dave Jones: Yeah, they're good. They're gonna there's gonna be 779 00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,500 there's there's gonna be a lot of people For that, that just 780 00:55:01,530 --> 00:55:04,320 stopped making any money at all once pot Spotify puts those 781 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:04,950 things in. 782 00:55:06,180 --> 00:55:08,640 Adam Curry: Well, people already aren't making any money. I mean, 783 00:55:09,150 --> 00:55:11,520 if they're spending money five bucks, 784 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,650 Dave Jones: they didn't now they're gonna get zero. Yes. 785 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,970 Adam Curry: So here's a question that neither of us are really 786 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,300 well, you're more qualified than I am. To answer, but this is one 787 00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:24,570 that I've detected out there. And it's part of this is part of 788 00:55:24,570 --> 00:55:31,050 remote item. And, and I'm not, I'm not quite sure, let me see 789 00:55:31,050 --> 00:55:35,070 if I can frame the issue. Okay, first, I want to thank Mike 790 00:55:35,070 --> 00:55:40,980 Newman profusely, because the automatic submission from wav 791 00:55:40,980 --> 00:55:45,990 lake to the podcast index appears to be Mike Newman. Yes. 792 00:55:47,610 --> 00:55:48,780 I had no idea. 793 00:55:50,190 --> 00:55:53,040 Dave Jones: I saw I saw him in their release notes, though, we 794 00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:59,460 Adam Curry: did a pull request that Mike Newman showed up. So 795 00:55:59,460 --> 00:56:02,670 artists, if you know if Mike Newman is not has not added you, 796 00:56:02,670 --> 00:56:05,730 you may not show up in my workflow. I may not be aware of 797 00:56:05,730 --> 00:56:09,360 your music and therefore may not be able to put it into my shows. 798 00:56:09,570 --> 00:56:11,790 Dave Jones: You may want to boost him so that he knows that 799 00:56:11,790 --> 00:56:12,990 you exist. Yes, 800 00:56:13,020 --> 00:56:15,630 Adam Curry: yes. And that seems like something that hopefully 801 00:56:15,630 --> 00:56:17,580 wavelike would just do on their own accord. 802 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,010 Dave Jones: He's He's the distro kid of podcasts. 803 00:56:20,790 --> 00:56:23,940 Adam Curry: That's a horrible thing to call anybody. You don't 804 00:56:23,940 --> 00:56:27,570 want to be a distro kid of back, Mike, I take it back. So I've 805 00:56:27,570 --> 00:56:30,300 been thinking and because there's this, this this 806 00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:36,270 conversation of. And I think it's a lack of understanding of 807 00:56:36,270 --> 00:56:40,830 RSS in general, because artists are coming to the project and 808 00:56:40,830 --> 00:56:46,200 saying, Well, considering how I put I need different splits for 809 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:50,460 different songs should I have? And this is only because they 810 00:56:50,460 --> 00:56:54,690 have poor interfaces and don't have per item. Value block 811 00:56:54,690 --> 00:56:57,870 splits on wavelike as an example, or, you know, just a 812 00:56:57,870 --> 00:56:59,280 general lack of understanding 813 00:56:59,970 --> 00:57:01,380 Dave Jones: per fee per feed me? 814 00:57:01,950 --> 00:57:02,460 Adam Curry: Well, 815 00:57:02,700 --> 00:57:04,980 Dave Jones: wavelength has split, they do have per item. 816 00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:06,750 They don't have splits per feed. 817 00:57:07,980 --> 00:57:09,270 Adam Curry: So no wavelike 818 00:57:10,350 --> 00:57:12,240 Dave Jones: they don't have value blogs in the feed. They 819 00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:13,650 have them only in the item. 820 00:57:16,350 --> 00:57:17,490 Adam Curry: Are you sure about that? 821 00:57:18,540 --> 00:57:21,060 Dave Jones: Yeah, they don't they don't put value blogs at 822 00:57:21,060 --> 00:57:23,550 the channel level. They only put them at the episode level. 823 00:57:23,910 --> 00:57:29,010 Adam Curry: Okay, but I thought it was exactly the opposite. 824 00:57:30,180 --> 00:57:31,380 Maybe I'm crazy. 825 00:57:32,009 --> 00:57:35,249 Dave Jones: That's That's why their feeds don't show. That's 826 00:57:35,249 --> 00:57:40,649 why their feeds don't show up. When under the new value enable 827 00:57:40,649 --> 00:57:47,249 feeds API endpoint because they only value blog, the episode or 828 00:57:47,249 --> 00:57:50,189 the track. They don't value blog, the feed itself. 829 00:57:50,970 --> 00:57:56,700 Adam Curry: It's all as part of the same problem. At any rate, 830 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:04,950 the question is, how should music be assembled? How should 831 00:58:04,950 --> 00:58:09,630 it be? How should it be connected to an artist and how 832 00:58:09,630 --> 00:58:13,860 should be connected to the participants of each individual 833 00:58:13,860 --> 00:58:21,000 track? And there's valid reasons to have a feed level volume. 834 00:58:21,300 --> 00:58:25,410 Well, if item level overrides feed level, which is it does 835 00:58:25,410 --> 00:58:31,470 right item overrides feed level i Okay. 836 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,340 Dave Jones: What's one of the what's the problem? Okay. 837 00:58:36,089 --> 00:58:37,649 Adam Curry: Here's what I'm here's what I'm trying to figure 838 00:58:37,649 --> 00:58:41,789 out. Okay. The way I see this moving forward, what I think 839 00:58:41,789 --> 00:58:45,989 should happen is Ainsley Costello just just use her to 840 00:58:45,989 --> 00:58:51,749 make it simple, should have an Ainsley Costello RSS feed. And 841 00:58:51,749 --> 00:58:58,739 that RSS feed should I believe, have remote items that point to 842 00:58:58,889 --> 00:59:05,309 feeds that either are an album or perhaps even single tracks 843 00:59:05,309 --> 00:59:09,269 that if she has participated on someone else's music, but she 844 00:59:09,269 --> 00:59:13,019 has a split in that, then she should be able to put that 845 00:59:13,019 --> 00:59:16,469 remote item into her personal feed, because I want to 846 00:59:16,469 --> 00:59:23,219 subscribe to Ainsley Costello the artist. Yes, so that when 847 00:59:23,249 --> 00:59:27,389 when she releases something, or does a collaboration with 848 00:59:27,389 --> 00:59:31,109 someone else, that that can automatically flow through to 849 00:59:31,109 --> 00:59:35,159 her feed that that will autumn it's not happening anywhere yet. 850 00:59:35,159 --> 00:59:39,689 So this is just me. spitballing as usual. Sure. I'd like to 851 00:59:39,689 --> 00:59:44,519 subscribe to her in an app. And then and then I'll see okay, 852 00:59:44,519 --> 00:59:51,209 here's this album or collection that has five songs in it. And 853 00:59:51,209 --> 00:59:55,019 that shows up as a remote item because those splits may have to 854 00:59:55,019 --> 00:59:58,349 change some somewhere down the line for recruitments etc. So I 855 00:59:58,349 --> 01:00:02,549 just want to get the most Recent validate information. But also, 856 01:00:03,029 --> 01:00:05,549 I think this is where it's important. If she participated 857 01:00:05,549 --> 01:00:10,439 on a SAM means track, then I want to see that show up in her 858 01:00:10,469 --> 01:00:15,749 feed. Yeah. But then it has to bring in the SAM means track 859 01:00:15,779 --> 01:00:20,159 value block and album art, etc. is is is that the right way to 860 01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:21,239 think of these things? 861 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,430 Dave Jones: No, I think that is I think that's a good, I think 862 01:00:26,430 --> 01:00:29,550 it's a really good idea. Because you. So here's, here's how I 863 01:00:29,550 --> 01:00:33,570 could see that happening, you would have, you know, for lack 864 01:00:33,570 --> 01:00:40,650 of a better term since aesthetic feed me in in that I tend to use 865 01:00:40,650 --> 01:00:45,270 that term to mean, a feed that just has content from other 866 01:00:45,270 --> 01:00:45,960 feeds in 867 01:00:46,110 --> 01:00:49,620 Adam Curry: Yes. Like an OPML file. Oh, no, we're there again, 868 01:00:49,620 --> 01:00:51,210 hello, Freedom controller. 869 01:00:52,260 --> 01:00:56,730 Dave Jones: So the feed is like, yeah, there's this synthetic 870 01:00:56,730 --> 01:01:01,410 feed, which the most, the biggest use of this concept is 871 01:01:01,620 --> 01:01:07,230 sermon audio.com. So you have all these sermons being posted 872 01:01:07,230 --> 01:01:11,550 all the time, under their initial source, which would be 873 01:01:11,550 --> 01:01:15,690 the preacher or the church that where they come from, but then 874 01:01:15,690 --> 01:01:22,230 you also have tons of the sermon audio podcasts. That's a 875 01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:26,400 separate podcast feed, but it's just called something like 876 01:01:27,690 --> 01:01:33,630 forgiveness. And it's, it's just got episodes from all across 877 01:01:33,630 --> 01:01:37,470 their catalogue of sermons that are being posted, that are 878 01:01:37,470 --> 01:01:42,180 tagged with that with that keyword. And so it's just 879 01:01:42,180 --> 01:01:46,230 pulling in, you've got you've got the original feed, it came 880 01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:49,920 from over here with that sermon in it. And now you've got this 881 01:01:49,950 --> 01:01:53,880 forgiveness, synthetic feed that's also got that same exact 882 01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,110 sermon in it. And they're pulling from that. And so like I 883 01:01:58,110 --> 01:02:04,950 had to discuss, like, Todd posted on the on the mastodon 884 01:02:04,950 --> 01:02:09,000 this week. He's like, I'm having trouble understanding what the 885 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:14,640 point of remote item is, outside of the context of a value time 886 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:19,140 split. In the concept is exactly 887 01:02:19,140 --> 01:02:20,610 Adam Curry: this. Yeah, it's a symlink. 888 01:02:22,350 --> 01:02:24,570 Dave Jones: symlink Yeah, exactly. It's it's an alias an 889 01:02:24,570 --> 01:02:26,760 Adam Curry: alias for those of you from the Mac world? 890 01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,460 Dave Jones: Or are a hyperlink and hyperlink hyperlink? Yeah, 891 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:36,930 it's just saying, hey, there's a thing over here. And rather than 892 01:02:36,930 --> 01:02:42,930 me recreating it in it's good, just go get it from the original 893 01:02:42,930 --> 01:02:46,770 source. You're telling you that way. You don't have to worry 894 01:02:46,770 --> 01:02:51,090 about the metadata going stale or getting screwed up? Right. So 895 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,690 that's, that's the concept here. So you would have the word to 896 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,290 envision what you're saying? I was, I would say see there being 897 01:02:58,290 --> 01:03:02,280 an Ainsley Costello Oh, FPP set a CNAME Yes. CNAME 898 01:03:03,510 --> 01:03:06,630 Adam Curry: name is another good one. Yeah. So 899 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,380 Dave Jones: honestly, we could have we could have called that 900 01:03:10,410 --> 01:03:11,100 the attribute. Well, 901 01:03:11,100 --> 01:03:12,750 Adam Curry: you know, what it is, what this tells me is we're 902 01:03:12,750 --> 01:03:15,690 on the right track because all these versions of it exist in 903 01:03:15,690 --> 01:03:18,510 the computing world. So we're on the right track with this idea. 904 01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:22,440 Dave Jones: The company computer science name for all of this is 905 01:03:22,950 --> 01:03:24,330 is an indirect reference. 906 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,350 Adam Curry: And and I have to correct myself the remote item 907 01:03:28,350 --> 01:03:33,540 was in fact conceived and birthed by Alex gates. I said 908 01:03:33,540 --> 01:03:38,490 that incorrectly on the on the mere mortals podcast. Oh, yeah, 909 01:03:38,490 --> 01:03:42,390 my three years I had the genesis of it wrong. So I apologize. 910 01:03:42,810 --> 01:03:46,200 Great interview by the way, the you know, Karen's it was good 911 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,900 because I had just been in the car for four hours taking Tina 912 01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:52,230 to the airport and driving back and I'd traffic and I jammed 913 01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:57,540 down you know, to two water burgers. And then before I got 914 01:03:57,540 --> 01:04:00,720 in, so we did and I even texted was like the can't do eight. 915 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,230 Let's do nine. So it was like 930 at night and I was tired. So 916 01:04:04,260 --> 01:04:07,110 then I've just slower. I think it's better for me. 917 01:04:07,590 --> 01:04:07,860 Dave Jones: It was 918 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:12,300 Adam Curry: it was very, it was I was dope, man. Yeah, very 919 01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,600 chill. Yeah, but it was it was fun to do. I really enjoy the 920 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:16,680 content. Such a good guy. 921 01:04:18,420 --> 01:04:21,870 Dave Jones: Yeah, it was on Andy laymen's podcast answers which 922 01:04:21,870 --> 01:04:22,710 I've cued up. I'm 923 01:04:22,710 --> 01:04:26,100 Adam Curry: excited to hear it. I saw the you know, I saw the 924 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,620 sound bites that were being published. You know, it was like 925 01:04:28,620 --> 01:04:32,970 RSS is the gate breaker the Gatecrasher I love that. I also 926 01:04:32,970 --> 01:04:35,490 used your big red button the other day. I use that on no 927 01:04:35,490 --> 01:04:36,060 agenda. 928 01:04:36,510 --> 01:04:40,710 Dave Jones: Oh, nice. Well, the the the my interview with him 929 01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:43,620 was exactly the opposite of yours. Mine. Sounded like a 930 01:04:43,620 --> 01:04:47,730 hamster. That was talking. I was all jazzed up. 931 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,010 Adam Curry: I'm not so sure about that. You sounded pretty 932 01:04:50,010 --> 01:04:51,450 cool to me. Okay. 933 01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:55,500 Dave Jones: Well, that the the idea here so is that there would 934 01:04:55,500 --> 01:05:00,870 be an Ainsley Costello feed that just consists of room load items 935 01:05:01,710 --> 01:05:06,210 to her actual feeds, whichever ones they are, whether it's an 936 01:05:06,210 --> 01:05:09,540 album or a single or whatever, and can I make it even crazier? 937 01:05:09,990 --> 01:05:14,700 Adam Curry: Please do would so there would be top level Ainsley 938 01:05:14,700 --> 01:05:19,440 Costello the hustle, beautiful NZSL feed synthetic feed where 939 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:23,940 you want to call it, boom, there's an album, go tap on that 940 01:05:23,940 --> 01:05:30,720 there's the tracks. Then from there, you might be able to see 941 01:05:31,290 --> 01:05:33,960 music from artists, so I might be able to see Oh, there's the 942 01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:39,660 SAM means song. And I can then hyperlink into SAM means or the 943 01:05:39,660 --> 01:05:43,290 it was as played on booster Grand Ball. Go into booster 944 01:05:43,290 --> 01:05:46,470 Grand Ball, oh, here's other tracks and the episode. If you 945 01:05:46,470 --> 01:05:50,040 have like your app, all of a sudden becomes a media browser. 946 01:05:50,370 --> 01:05:51,240 Whoa. 947 01:05:52,980 --> 01:05:55,320 Dave Jones: I'm gonna I'm gonna support I'm going to support 948 01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:59,190 you. You throw me an alley oop, I'm going to dunk it. Here it 949 01:05:59,190 --> 01:06:04,170 goes. So starting from the top down in this feed, and let's 950 01:06:04,170 --> 01:06:07,500 just call this what is it? This is a defeat as a playlist. Yeah. 951 01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:13,350 So it at the top. It is a it is a medium type music l it's a 952 01:06:13,350 --> 01:06:17,610 play. There you go. There you go. You and and it's a and at 953 01:06:17,610 --> 01:06:23,910 the channel level. You also have the person tag with Ainsley in 954 01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:28,020 it. Yeah. With a link to her stuff. Yeah. And a picture of 955 01:06:28,020 --> 01:06:32,940 her Yeah. Then you have all your remote items have have links to 956 01:06:32,940 --> 01:06:39,240 her feeds, in her tracks. Then at the end, you also have a pod 957 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:44,640 roll tag, linking to all the places that she showed up 958 01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:50,820 booster Graham ball. Sam means all these different plays, and 959 01:06:50,820 --> 01:06:55,320 then a bunch of perhaps, suggested albums that she likes. 960 01:06:55,320 --> 01:07:00,540 Yes. to recommend to you. Yes. And that that is the fleshing 961 01:07:00,540 --> 01:07:05,100 out the so what's your vision? That's what the XML would look 962 01:07:05,100 --> 01:07:05,370 like. 963 01:07:06,450 --> 01:07:07,620 Adam Curry: You know what it is right? 964 01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:10,650 Dave Jones: Share your up email. Yeah. 965 01:07:13,020 --> 01:07:16,290 Adam Curry: Yes, it is. Share your OPML always, always OPML at 966 01:07:16,290 --> 01:07:19,140 the end. Are we ever gonna ever gonna get that done? Are we? 967 01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,530 Dave Jones: Well, I mean, CRISPR I seen has a shirt that says 968 01:07:22,530 --> 01:07:23,610 that on it. It's all up. 969 01:07:25,020 --> 01:07:27,480 Adam Curry: I need that shirt. That's a great shirt. That's 970 01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:30,060 exactly what I need. Yeah, that's 971 01:07:30,090 --> 01:07:33,180 Dave Jones: okay. So now that's beautiful experience is what 972 01:07:33,180 --> 01:07:33,570 that is. 973 01:07:33,900 --> 01:07:37,170 Adam Curry: So the the challenge, of course, is for 974 01:07:37,770 --> 01:07:43,350 feed creation interface. Which, right now the top two guys doing 975 01:07:43,350 --> 01:07:47,970 this, in my mind are Steven Bell and Dolby Das. Yeah, so I'm 976 01:07:47,970 --> 01:07:50,700 excited to see what they come up with if they liked this idea if 977 01:07:50,700 --> 01:07:54,480 they liked this basic premise, because the app should just be 978 01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,980 able to easily adapt to follow those, you know, follow that 979 01:07:59,010 --> 01:08:04,200 that trail, like a breadcrumb. Basically, the boom in boom, in 980 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,910 boom, in click play, listen was here. And you're moving around? 981 01:08:08,940 --> 01:08:11,700 Um, you know what that is? Discovery? 982 01:08:13,620 --> 01:08:18,990 Dave Jones: Yeah, there could be. There could be apps that do 983 01:08:18,990 --> 01:08:22,620 just this, you know, yeah, it really could be apps that just 984 01:08:22,620 --> 01:08:23,700 do playlists. 985 01:08:25,290 --> 01:08:26,490 Adam Curry: I just popped a boner. 986 01:08:34,529 --> 01:08:36,689 metaphor, metaphorical metaphor. 987 01:08:38,790 --> 01:08:40,920 Dave Jones: Please don't make the show title. metaphorical 988 01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:41,190 Boehner. 989 01:08:42,060 --> 01:08:44,100 Adam Curry: No, no, I already got dropped the talk. I mean, 990 01:08:44,130 --> 01:08:45,450 that's already beautiful. 991 01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:51,869 Dave Jones: Yes. I mean, that this is this is. This is the 992 01:08:51,869 --> 01:08:55,799 vision. I mean, like I love this vision. I didn't because that's 993 01:08:55,799 --> 01:08:58,139 how that's how you get discovery. That's how you get 994 01:08:58,139 --> 01:09:01,859 organic discovery. Yes, people begin to put recommendations 995 01:09:01,859 --> 01:09:04,259 into things and people not algorithms and 996 01:09:04,290 --> 01:09:07,110 Adam Curry: people will stick in their apps. And it's just as you 997 01:09:07,110 --> 01:09:07,440 said, 998 01:09:07,710 --> 01:09:08,580 Dave Jones: put a stick in your 999 01:09:13,859 --> 01:09:18,629 Adam Curry: head. It can change the entire dynamics of of apps. 1000 01:09:19,259 --> 01:09:21,719 You know, just like you said, you may just have apps that are 1001 01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:25,199 purely meant to browse through the RSS space. 1002 01:09:26,100 --> 01:09:32,310 Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah, that's, to me, one of the most exciting 1003 01:09:32,340 --> 01:09:38,040 tags that has come up is remote items. Well, I mean, we already 1004 01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:42,450 know that. That is a powerful tag that links thing that's 1005 01:09:42,450 --> 01:09:45,570 glue, that's a glue tag and links things together. It's 1006 01:09:45,570 --> 01:09:50,370 that's like DNS. Yeah. As far as a thing that's sort of 1007 01:09:50,370 --> 01:09:56,010 underrated. A feature feature tag is pod roll. I really want 1008 01:09:56,010 --> 01:10:00,540 to see people start using this. Yeah, because that is a That's, 1009 01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,130 that's a recommendation engine just waiting to happen. Yep, 1010 01:10:05,610 --> 01:10:11,070 totally. I mean, we just need tools for it. Because, like, I 1011 01:10:11,070 --> 01:10:14,040 hope Buzzsprout Buzzsprout invented the tag, basically. And 1012 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:17,400 I hope that they put in something in their UI. Because 1013 01:10:17,550 --> 01:10:21,630 as soon as soon as they put that in there, I'm gonna start 1014 01:10:21,930 --> 01:10:26,130 slurping that stuff up and creating and I will immediately 1015 01:10:26,130 --> 01:10:29,850 create an endpoint called recommendations. And it's gonna 1016 01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,110 be nothing but pod rolls. 1017 01:10:31,140 --> 01:10:36,300 Adam Curry: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. 1018 01:10:37,530 --> 01:10:39,960 Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, like, why not? That's, that's organic 1019 01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,210 recommendation engine without algorithms. 1020 01:10:42,929 --> 01:10:43,649 Adam Curry: I love it. 1021 01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:56,250 Dave Jones: See, I've got, you know, I started to ask, started 1022 01:10:56,250 --> 01:10:59,490 to raise the podcasting 2.0 to threat level alpha, 1023 01:11:00,810 --> 01:11:01,620 Adam Curry: level alpha. 1024 01:11:02,070 --> 01:11:05,220 Dave Jones: What does that mean? Like, and then I saw what 1025 01:11:05,220 --> 01:11:08,310 YouTube came out with. And I decided no, it's not it's 1026 01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:11,220 different. There's no threat? Well, now we're still like, 1027 01:11:11,220 --> 01:11:12,900 we're still at Green. Everything's green. 1028 01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:18,600 Adam Curry: I somehow, it's like, it's like I'm a crack 1029 01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,900 addicts. But when I've listened to the new media show, because 1030 01:11:21,900 --> 01:11:25,290 like, I know, I know, I should not light up this pipe. I know 1031 01:11:25,290 --> 01:11:27,780 that it's going to make me puke at the end of this. Hi, I'm 1032 01:11:27,780 --> 01:11:31,440 going to have, but I can't stop myself from listening to Todd 1033 01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:40,110 and Rob argue about YouTube. Is so wasted right now, man, like, 1034 01:11:40,140 --> 01:11:43,800 oh, no, I'm getting sick over this crack, but I can't stop it. 1035 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:49,740 And then another hit. And it was it was interesting to hear Rob, 1036 01:11:49,740 --> 01:11:55,980 do almost a one ad on YouTube pretty much flubbed it all. And 1037 01:11:56,580 --> 01:11:59,880 I don't know what's going on. But my takeaways were the 1038 01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:03,090 following thing that's really important. And it's something 1039 01:12:03,090 --> 01:12:07,680 we've talked about before, but podcasting is not all about 1040 01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:13,560 making money and a career. And it's, it's just not. And this 1041 01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,470 and I was thinking, you know, like, first of all, you cannot 1042 01:12:16,470 --> 01:12:19,590 serve two masters. You know, either you're making a great 1043 01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:24,120 product, and people and you can monetize that, or you're just 1044 01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:26,730 out for money, and you're going to make a product have to 1045 01:12:26,970 --> 01:12:30,720 reverse into it. This is no different than blogging, this 1046 01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:33,420 and blogging became micro blogging became social 1047 01:12:33,420 --> 01:12:41,460 networking, and 99% of all people oops, sorry, just will 1048 01:12:41,460 --> 01:12:47,310 not make any money on social media or blogging, or you know, 1049 01:12:47,310 --> 01:12:50,700 and then we went down to the lowest common denominator, which 1050 01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:55,770 was banner ads, and clickbait and stuff. And that brought down 1051 01:12:55,770 --> 01:13:01,050 the CPM to me Oh pennies and this is where podcast 1052 01:13:01,050 --> 01:13:05,190 advertising is headed now that we have dai and it's just it 1053 01:13:05,190 --> 01:13:07,410 because there's there's unlimited inventory. So there's 1054 01:13:07,410 --> 01:13:10,980 no scarcity. So it just, you know, there's beauty You name 1055 01:13:10,980 --> 01:13:13,770 it, how much do you want is not a problem, it's just going to go 1056 01:13:13,770 --> 01:13:18,750 it's a it's a race to the bottom. And what value for value 1057 01:13:18,750 --> 01:13:26,520 has done is a couple things. One, it has given people a 1058 01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:31,740 metric for motivational engagement and then that's very 1059 01:13:31,740 --> 01:13:34,050 Dave Jones: civilizational engaged it's very specific. 1060 01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:39,600 Adam Curry: So knowing looking at an lb wallet or a hella pad 1061 01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:46,080 and seeing people listening in real time. And seeing feedback 1062 01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:53,220 and and value being contributed irrelevant irrespective of, of 1063 01:13:53,220 --> 01:13:57,420 the amount of money it is, in Fiat terms is just a number. 1064 01:13:57,810 --> 01:14:02,190 Right? Even more exciting is to row a duck's Ben, what does that 1065 01:14:02,190 --> 01:14:04,890 even mean? It'd be I don't know, how much is that in pennies or 1066 01:14:04,890 --> 01:14:09,720 dollars or whatever. It's an it's an engagement system that 1067 01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:13,170 motivates people when they're doing something that they're 1068 01:14:13,170 --> 01:14:18,330 doing in Todd's metric is always 98 or 97% of people don't do it 1069 01:14:18,330 --> 01:14:23,640 for money, I believe that I think is probably close. But you 1070 01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:29,550 can also this podcast this very podcast is an excellent example 1071 01:14:29,850 --> 01:14:35,220 of a podcast that exists not to make money. It is a podcast that 1072 01:14:35,220 --> 01:14:41,010 exists to support a community. That's a community resource view 1073 01:14:41,010 --> 01:14:44,970 and I take no money out of this that goes into keeping the 1074 01:14:44,970 --> 01:14:48,450 community going with the with the systems that we need. We're 1075 01:14:48,450 --> 01:14:52,800 the reserve to make sure we stay alive and to continue to provide 1076 01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:59,040 liquidity and low low cost routing etc. That's that's that 1077 01:14:59,370 --> 01:15:03,300 this is This is a type of podcast that I think a lot 1078 01:15:03,420 --> 01:15:08,040 without value for value when people use to support their 1079 01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:12,330 hobby, their club, their whatever it is. And the podcast 1080 01:15:12,330 --> 01:15:17,460 industrial complex is just so insane about making money and 1081 01:15:17,460 --> 01:15:22,800 making money making money making money Nene, Nene Nene. And 1082 01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:26,580 that's not what podcasting is. But you'd think that's all that 1083 01:15:26,580 --> 01:15:33,090 it's about. If you if you listen to that to video, podcast, news 1084 01:15:33,090 --> 01:15:37,500 shows or podcasts, industry information, you know, it's all 1085 01:15:37,500 --> 01:15:40,770 about the advertising is up, this is up and this is up and 1086 01:15:40,770 --> 01:15:45,510 this is, who cares. Most people just want to do a podcast 1087 01:15:45,510 --> 01:15:48,930 because they want to be heard. And with value for value in the 1088 01:15:48,930 --> 01:15:52,710 digital sense of podcasts and 2.0. You have this beautiful 1089 01:15:52,710 --> 01:15:57,510 metric that makes you feel good. It's what's what what has always 1090 01:15:57,510 --> 01:16:00,600 been the differentiator in podcast hosting companies has 1091 01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:04,680 been statistics. We've got great stats. He's got real time stats, 1092 01:16:04,710 --> 01:16:08,460 we've got better stats, we've got stats with maps, we've got 1093 01:16:08,460 --> 01:16:14,310 stats with charts, and this is an unbelievable stat. Oh, 1094 01:16:14,460 --> 01:16:17,280 someone's listening right at this very moment. I see it every 1095 01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:19,710 minute they listen, I see something that tells me 1096 01:16:19,710 --> 01:16:25,020 someone's listening. It's much bigger than than what the 1097 01:16:25,020 --> 01:16:28,740 podcast industrial complex is selling people. It's a shame 1098 01:16:28,740 --> 01:16:32,460 really, it's a shame. Because people always say, well, but I 1099 01:16:32,460 --> 01:16:35,280 can be an influencer. I could do a podcast. I'll make some money. 1100 01:16:35,340 --> 01:16:36,210 Probably not. 1101 01:16:39,570 --> 01:16:42,840 Dave Jones: The podcast industrial complex is a selfless 1102 01:16:42,870 --> 01:16:52,350 it's a self licking ice cream cone. It is a PSP is a is a it's 1103 01:16:52,350 --> 01:16:56,430 really it is the it is the digital advertising industry. 1104 01:16:57,540 --> 01:17:02,670 With podcasting as like an add on module. Yes, they just 1105 01:17:02,700 --> 01:17:08,460 they've just just plugged in the podcasting on the side. If they 1106 01:17:08,460 --> 01:17:12,000 don't really care about a good organic discovery, sorry, sorry. 1107 01:17:12,900 --> 01:17:16,080 They don't they don't really care about podcasting as 1108 01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:20,520 podcasting. It's just another way to siphon off a percentage 1109 01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,840 of an of an advertising revenue stream. Yes. And so podcasting 1110 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:29,880 itself is irrelevant. I mean, podcast consultants, they need 1111 01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:32,550 to get their clients into the YouTube ecosystem in order to 1112 01:17:32,550 --> 01:17:36,000 get a cut of that sweet YouTube money. Yes, yes, yes. So 1113 01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:39,990 therefore, they define a way the meaning of what podcasting is 1114 01:17:39,990 --> 01:17:46,050 using some sort of like George Bush, fuzzy math. And, like, you 1115 01:17:46,050 --> 01:17:48,690 know, I mean, like, they're not, they're no longer they're no 1116 01:17:48,690 --> 01:17:51,780 longer soldiers. They're enemy combatants. Yeah, we just, we 1117 01:17:51,780 --> 01:17:55,710 just changed the terminology. And that's good. And now 1118 01:17:55,710 --> 01:17:59,280 everything becomes podcasting. In this, it's a joke. And so 1119 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:04,410 they do these, they do these ridiculous, inconsistent, they 1120 01:18:04,410 --> 01:18:10,290 did these ridiculous surveys with inconsistent results. And 1121 01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:15,060 extrapolate always at the end of them. This that is obviously 1122 01:18:15,060 --> 01:18:19,110 beneficial to be to have more YouTube. So like, you know, 1123 01:18:19,110 --> 01:18:22,200 they'll say, Oh, well, everybody listens to their podcasts on 1124 01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,920 YouTube. And then they'll say, Well, we know how many of the 1125 01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:29,520 top podcasts are on YouTube, you know, other top out of the top 1126 01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:34,680 100? Well, five, right? Well, then this is an inconsistent 1127 01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:38,220 result. This shows that your surveys full of crap. Yeah. And 1128 01:18:38,250 --> 01:18:42,570 like, it's the whole thing. I don't know, this kind of goes 1129 01:18:42,570 --> 01:18:46,830 back to this debate that I really don't want to get into. 1130 01:18:46,830 --> 01:18:50,940 But it's just to bring it up about whether something is quote 1131 01:18:50,940 --> 01:18:54,180 unquote, government funded, or whether it just gets funding 1132 01:18:54,180 --> 01:18:58,170 from the government. Yeah, they have in again, you know, we had 1133 01:18:58,170 --> 01:19:03,120 this there's this, of course, this newsguard organization is 1134 01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:06,630 getting sued, because they, they've taken government money 1135 01:19:06,630 --> 01:19:15,030 to do it to do a project for the government. And the, you know, 1136 01:19:15,030 --> 01:19:18,090 they did more research on this this week, and it was 20, they 1137 01:19:18,090 --> 01:19:25,380 had a $25,000 advance to do a pilot program to provide initial 1138 01:19:25,410 --> 01:19:29,250 AI work using their misinformation, fingerprint 1139 01:19:29,250 --> 01:19:33,780 database supplied to the Defense Department. And then the idea is 1140 01:19:33,780 --> 01:19:38,040 if this was a good product, and they get the full award, so 1141 01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:42,000 it's, it's clear to me that this was, you know, a project that 1142 01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:48,720 they did for the government. But you know, that there's this big 1143 01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:53,370 debate around whether or not something becomes quote unquote, 1144 01:19:53,370 --> 01:19:58,650 government funded. And, you know, I understand that. The 1145 01:19:58,650 --> 01:20:02,190 reason I'm attaching this to YouTube is because this is also 1146 01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:07,590 very similar to this idea of digital advertising, whether 1147 01:20:07,590 --> 01:20:14,130 something is whether or not the, the money you get from the 1148 01:20:14,130 --> 01:20:17,820 advertiser is a corrupting influence on the content of the 1149 01:20:17,820 --> 01:20:20,160 show, or the content of what 1150 01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:23,310 Adam Curry: you're delivering by definition. Yes. 1151 01:20:23,340 --> 01:20:27,540 Dave Jones: So you and you have these, there's, you have these 1152 01:20:27,540 --> 01:20:31,680 ideas there, it's like, well, I just get a portion of my money 1153 01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:35,130 from the government. Therefore, you know, it's because I 1154 01:20:35,130 --> 01:20:41,580 delivered such an such a project or product. And I got paid for 1155 01:20:41,580 --> 01:20:45,720 it. Therefore, you know, it's not fair to call me government 1156 01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,800 funded. Because that implies that I did, I'm literally I 1157 01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:52,890 wouldn't exist without government. And I can understand 1158 01:20:52,890 --> 01:20:56,700 that. I understand the distinction there that is trying 1159 01:20:56,700 --> 01:21:01,350 to be made. I always come back to this, there's this old. 1160 01:21:02,940 --> 01:21:08,190 There's this old sort of thought experiment that goes like this. 1161 01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:13,350 You're walking down the alleyway, you're walking down a 1162 01:21:13,350 --> 01:21:17,640 dark alleyway in Chicago with your wife. And you just left a 1163 01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:20,940 restaurant at two o'clock in the morning, you're walking down 1164 01:21:20,940 --> 01:21:26,220 this alleyway. And at the other end of the alleyway, you see 1165 01:21:26,220 --> 01:21:29,760 three figures in hoodies walking towards you. 1166 01:21:30,060 --> 01:21:32,220 Adam Curry: Wow, hold on a second, I think we need some, 1167 01:21:32,310 --> 01:21:33,690 some spooky music with this. 1168 01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:40,860 Dave Jones: Yeah, we're walking down the alleyway. So you're 1169 01:21:40,860 --> 01:21:43,440 going down the alleyway, and you see these three fingers 1170 01:21:43,440 --> 01:21:51,810 approaching. And they emerge out of the out of the smoke that's 1171 01:21:51,810 --> 01:21:57,960 rising out of the manhole cover. You can't you, you, you, you 1172 01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:02,160 catch your breath and your throat. And you look at your 1173 01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:07,590 wife and you're scared. Would it make a difference to you? If you 1174 01:22:07,590 --> 01:22:12,090 knew that these three, these three men just came out of a 1175 01:22:12,090 --> 01:22:18,060 Bible study? Wow. Of course, if the answer is, of course, it 1176 01:22:18,060 --> 01:22:21,150 wouldn't make a difference. It would make all the difference in 1177 01:22:21,150 --> 01:22:28,890 the whole world. So the idea that that you did the the QA the 1178 01:22:29,580 --> 01:22:38,700 the context of a thing is corrupted or determined by small 1179 01:22:38,730 --> 01:22:44,460 inputs like that, like a little a little bit of context, can 1180 01:22:44,460 --> 01:22:48,930 flavor an entire interaction. And so it's not, I guess what 1181 01:22:48,930 --> 01:22:54,300 I'm trying to say here is that it doesn't matter if you're 1182 01:22:54,300 --> 01:22:59,880 government funded, or if you're funded by the government, the 1183 01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:03,390 mere fact that you get your money, did you get any portion 1184 01:23:03,390 --> 01:23:08,130 of your money from the government taints, or gives 1185 01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:12,900 flavor to all of your content? Yeah. And whether it's fair or 1186 01:23:12,900 --> 01:23:16,440 not, it is a thing that you are going to have to live with. 1187 01:23:16,440 --> 01:23:20,130 Because it's, it is an unavoidable aspect of human 1188 01:23:20,130 --> 01:23:23,100 nature that they're going to those interpretations are going 1189 01:23:23,100 --> 01:23:26,940 to be made. And the same, it's the same way with digital with 1190 01:23:26,940 --> 01:23:33,150 advertising. If you get your money, any portion of it 1% From 1191 01:23:33,150 --> 01:23:38,910 an advert from advertisers, people are always going to from 1192 01:23:38,910 --> 01:23:43,470 time to time, not always, not always. But from time to time, 1193 01:23:43,470 --> 01:23:50,520 people are going to question whether or not your content has 1194 01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:55,950 been subtly pushed in the direction that is favorable to 1195 01:23:55,980 --> 01:23:59,730 an advertiser. It's an it is unavoidable, 1196 01:23:59,730 --> 01:24:02,130 Adam Curry: just by definition, that you're not going to talk 1197 01:24:02,130 --> 01:24:05,820 about a competing product. That's censorship right there, 1198 01:24:06,390 --> 01:24:07,590 bro, self censorship. 1199 01:24:08,580 --> 01:24:12,360 Dave Jones: Right. And, and, you know, I see people that fight 1200 01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:20,130 against this. And they they try to push, they they try to push 1201 01:24:20,130 --> 01:24:23,400 through it and say, Look, I'm not going to censor what I say. 1202 01:24:23,820 --> 01:24:27,120 And they have varying degrees of success with it. You know, 1203 01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:30,540 sometimes an advertiser pulls out sometimes they don't. But 1204 01:24:30,540 --> 01:24:39,150 the the idea there is that in both cases, the perception is 1205 01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:43,110 all that matters. And that's, that's what me like when those, 1206 01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:46,470 you know, when it's at night, and those three guys are walking 1207 01:24:46,470 --> 01:24:50,340 towards you. The perception your fear is determined is driven 1208 01:24:50,340 --> 01:24:53,880 purely by the perception of the situation. And that's always the 1209 01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:57,030 case perception is reality in every one of these cases, 1210 01:24:57,150 --> 01:25:01,770 whether that's fair tea or not, is sort of irrelevant. Exactly, 1211 01:25:02,340 --> 01:25:02,730 yeah. 1212 01:25:04,440 --> 01:25:10,320 Adam Curry: So I guess what I'm saying is what we are doing here 1213 01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:16,500 matters. It's important. The N value for value is not about 1214 01:25:16,500 --> 01:25:21,480 money per se, it's not an alternative to advertising. It 1215 01:25:21,480 --> 01:25:27,660 can be competitive with the with the with the payout it can be. 1216 01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:34,500 But at its basis, I'm just excited by I'm still excited 1217 01:25:34,500 --> 01:25:39,750 when I hear pew. Pew and then sometimes I leave it open, you 1218 01:25:39,750 --> 01:25:42,960 know, the the speaker still on I have pew and I run back. Oh, let 1219 01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,260 me see. What did they say? What's what's what's the 1220 01:25:46,290 --> 01:25:52,140 numerology of it? You know, and or it's never about, oh, I made 1221 01:25:52,140 --> 01:25:58,290 another buck. Never about that. Conversely, we celebrated 16 1222 01:25:58,290 --> 01:25:59,940 years of no agenda yesterday. 1223 01:26:00,570 --> 01:26:02,100 Dave Jones: Congratulations, happy anniversary, 1224 01:26:02,130 --> 01:26:05,520 Adam Curry: thank you. And go ahead and listen to the donation 1225 01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:11,640 segment. It blows me away. It blows me away that people, not 1226 01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:16,170 one not 210 Pulling $1,000 out of their pocket Happy Birthday. 1227 01:26:18,870 --> 01:26:24,150 But besides, besides that, what they're saying in the notes is, 1228 01:26:24,330 --> 01:26:27,600 you know, I would have I might have been dead. Literally, we 1229 01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:30,870 get that quite often, I might have been dead. If you hadn't 1230 01:26:30,870 --> 01:26:35,670 influenced my thinking. Where I got out of a bad situation, or 1231 01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:39,570 I've determined to change something in my life based upon 1232 01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:43,380 the way you looked at a new story. Or I'm not all freaked 1233 01:26:43,380 --> 01:26:46,290 out about new stories. There's a whole bunch of different 1234 01:26:46,290 --> 01:26:51,000 reasons. Those, that's what excites me. It really does like, 1235 01:26:51,030 --> 01:26:54,630 Oh, wow. And that's been that that value for value. And we 1236 01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:59,070 look, I don't care. Look, I don't care what you're doing. It 1237 01:26:59,070 --> 01:27:02,190 took us a long time to get to a place where it could support to 1238 01:27:02,190 --> 01:27:08,280 families. It took us years, years and years probably. Now 1239 01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:12,150 early days, I think it might be easier now. Because we have more 1240 01:27:12,150 --> 01:27:14,580 tools just in general to communicate. We didn't have we 1241 01:27:14,580 --> 01:27:18,090 had PayPal, that was the only thing we had. But we didn't have 1242 01:27:18,480 --> 01:27:25,020 we didn't have what do you call it MailChimp didn't have these 1243 01:27:25,020 --> 01:27:28,290 easy, easy mail, you know, a newsletter things. We didn't 1244 01:27:28,290 --> 01:27:31,710 have all these different. We didn't have. We barely had 1245 01:27:31,710 --> 01:27:38,820 social media as a thing. But it took years and years and years 1246 01:27:38,820 --> 01:27:44,100 and whether you're, you know, to, for it to be sustaining. And 1247 01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,970 that's you know, it's good can be done with people. So yeah, 1248 01:27:47,970 --> 01:27:52,950 but you had to name bull crap. Now, if anyone's go ahead and 1249 01:27:52,980 --> 01:27:54,900 walk around, say Adam curry by huh. 1250 01:27:55,620 --> 01:27:58,920 Dave Jones: It started if you had started a music show that 1251 01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:02,160 may have pulled over, but not for what you did. I mean, that's 1252 01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:03,390 you are starting from scratch. 1253 01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:08,700 Adam Curry: And we've never done video. Never never contemplated 1254 01:28:08,700 --> 01:28:12,120 it. And we're not on Spotify. 1255 01:28:13,110 --> 01:28:16,860 Dave Jones: But the YouTube, the YouTube podcast industrial 1256 01:28:16,860 --> 01:28:23,340 complex, like, just, just just don't, you know, just just don't 1257 01:28:24,330 --> 01:28:30,420 just don't go that direction. I mean, like, it's, and honestly, 1258 01:28:31,380 --> 01:28:35,250 just did digital advertising in general. I mean, just be 1259 01:28:35,250 --> 01:28:38,820 prepared. If that's the route you choose, just be prepared to 1260 01:28:38,820 --> 01:28:42,450 have always that, that perception that's attached to 1261 01:28:42,450 --> 01:28:47,310 your TV content. And, you know, I mean, hey, I go and I read 1262 01:28:47,310 --> 01:28:52,350 news, I had to figure out we had a special election in our album 1263 01:28:52,350 --> 01:28:55,470 House District, you know, the other day and I have no problem 1264 01:28:55,470 --> 01:29:00,090 going to aol.com or the local news and seeing who won the 1265 01:29:00,090 --> 01:29:02,880 election. That's an objective thing that I go and check out. 1266 01:29:03,450 --> 01:29:06,060 Not a problem. I don't think they're compromised, that I'm 1267 01:29:06,060 --> 01:29:08,190 not going to find out who actually won the election or 1268 01:29:08,190 --> 01:29:12,780 not. That's not that's not an issue. But But am I going to go 1269 01:29:12,780 --> 01:29:19,410 and, you know, read a piece from them about, you know, about a 1270 01:29:19,500 --> 01:29:23,700 local advertising, excuse me about a local business, when 1271 01:29:23,700 --> 01:29:27,120 that business may have been an advertiser, I'm gonna be a 1272 01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:30,120 little bit skeptical of that. I'm probably just not even going 1273 01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:32,940 to read the article. Right. So I mean that and that's what you're 1274 01:29:32,940 --> 01:29:36,000 that's what you're gonna have to fight. I mean, the the 1275 01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:41,880 podcasting is a long stay staying power. staying power is 1276 01:29:41,970 --> 01:29:48,600 is 90% of of podcasting. Every say I mean look at James every 1277 01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:54,300 single day. Yep. And you've got I mean, I, I couldn't do it. I'm 1278 01:29:54,300 --> 01:29:57,510 already telling you I could not do it every single day podcast 1279 01:29:57,510 --> 01:29:59,370 for how for year after year. 1280 01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:00,930 Adam Curry: Yeah, it's is a real commitment. 1281 01:30:01,590 --> 01:30:05,610 Dave Jones: It is it is and but in the commitment eventually 1282 01:30:05,610 --> 01:30:08,520 does pay off, if you try to shortcut and just say I'm going 1283 01:30:08,520 --> 01:30:12,150 to do YouTube, yeah. You're you're just cheapening your own 1284 01:30:12,150 --> 01:30:12,810 product. 1285 01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:14,760 Adam Curry: And you and you don't have control over 1286 01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,190 discovery of you don't have control. You just don't have 1287 01:30:17,220 --> 01:30:23,760 control. That's right. And all of this. I love this RSS. Deep 1288 01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:26,880 Dive that we're doing right now the whole group. And because 1289 01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:33,120 this will lead to better RSS content distribution in general, 1290 01:30:33,390 --> 01:30:38,610 and discovery through RSS and it Yes, it will work with written 1291 01:30:38,610 --> 01:30:43,320 word. I mean, there's no reason why you can't have a remote item 1292 01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:45,330 for blogs. 1293 01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:49,320 Dave Jones: Totally. Yeah, totally. You know, 1294 01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:53,490 Adam Curry: and I think ultimately, and, and welcome 1295 01:30:53,490 --> 01:30:56,370 again, Andrew Gromit good to have him on podcast index dot 1296 01:30:56,370 --> 01:31:02,670 social, progressive web apps, you know, because that's, that's 1297 01:31:02,670 --> 01:31:05,130 the next thing. The actually Todd said that, you know, we 1298 01:31:05,130 --> 01:31:07,140 still have the World Wide Web, if anyone still knows what that 1299 01:31:07,140 --> 01:31:09,150 means. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, a lot of people don't. 1300 01:31:10,110 --> 01:31:11,460 They think they have a Google. 1301 01:31:13,020 --> 01:31:13,950 Dave Jones: Yeah, 1302 01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:16,830 Adam Curry: I got Google. I hit this button. And I searched and 1303 01:31:16,830 --> 01:31:20,580 I get answers. And I find stuff. But that's Google right. Now, 1304 01:31:20,580 --> 01:31:21,300 that's the web 1305 01:31:22,290 --> 01:31:25,980 Dave Jones: that that's in in the web, we forget that the web 1306 01:31:25,980 --> 01:31:30,840 is the the original decentralized. Yes. Like, 1307 01:31:31,170 --> 01:31:34,170 there's so many times where we look at these other protocols. 1308 01:31:34,500 --> 01:31:38,940 And we're like, you know, we think, Okay, well, this, this 1309 01:31:38,940 --> 01:31:41,490 protocol is going to meet my needs for decentralization. 1310 01:31:41,700 --> 01:31:44,940 Really, the web is the most decentralized things, that thing 1311 01:31:44,940 --> 01:31:50,790 that exists. But look, look at the number of aggregation points 1312 01:31:50,790 --> 01:31:55,710 for feeds. It's huge. It's all over the place. If you look at 1313 01:31:55,710 --> 01:32:00,600 the weekly stats, hosting stats dump that we do. I mean, that 1314 01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:07,560 thing has 2000 entries. That's it, that's equivalent to 1315 01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:11,730 something like, you know, 2000 IPFS nodes. 1316 01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:15,750 Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah. Is it really that many? It's 2000. 1317 01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:20,130 Really, that's amazing. It's a lot. That is huge. And that's 1318 01:32:20,130 --> 01:32:23,580 all hosting companies, individual servers, etc. 1319 01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:26,370 Dave Jones: Right? Yeah. Actually, let me pull that up. 1320 01:32:26,700 --> 01:32:30,240 I'm kind of curious. Now. Let me see if I can get to my, to the 1321 01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:31,830 last version of that ahead. 1322 01:32:32,010 --> 01:32:37,140 Adam Curry: And it's a great way to to hide it. You know. You're 1323 01:32:37,140 --> 01:32:40,140 so right. It is so that's so beautiful. That's all 1324 01:32:40,140 --> 01:32:41,130 decentralized. 1325 01:32:41,639 --> 01:32:45,239 Dave Jones: Well, we're gonna have we're gonna have Todd and 1326 01:32:45,359 --> 01:32:50,729 Mike Dell from blueberry on next week, next week, next year, next 1327 01:32:50,729 --> 01:32:53,849 week, so that we can talk about one of the things we're going to 1328 01:32:53,849 --> 01:32:58,199 talk about is their proposal for what they call alternate feed. 1329 01:32:58,619 --> 01:33:04,169 Yep. And, and I've been thinking a lot about it, and I dig it. I 1330 01:33:04,169 --> 01:33:07,859 think it's very, I think it's very useful, but they in it, it 1331 01:33:07,859 --> 01:33:10,859 relies on this idea of decentralizing just using the 1332 01:33:10,859 --> 01:33:16,589 web itself. I'm all for that. There is so yeah, so there's, 1333 01:33:16,919 --> 01:33:20,579 you know, you have anchor Spreaker. These are just this is 1334 01:33:20,609 --> 01:33:25,979 this is rent, ranked and this is these are ordered by the number 1335 01:33:25,979 --> 01:33:31,529 of feeds they host Okay, so currently, anchor Spreaker 1336 01:33:31,529 --> 01:33:36,899 Buzzsprout. iBook, SoundCloud, rss.com pod bean Lipson. 1337 01:33:36,929 --> 01:33:40,499 PodOmatic castbox I'm gonna get down a few 1338 01:33:41,190 --> 01:33:42,510 Adam Curry: you're gonna want to hear the names. 1339 01:33:43,170 --> 01:33:49,080 Dave Jones: Blueberry Librivox a cast cast those red circle 1340 01:33:49,650 --> 01:33:56,100 Islaam house Allah walk by Cambridge University Captivate 1341 01:33:56,640 --> 01:34:00,810 transistor hub Hopper simple cast Omni content, okay, and it 1342 01:34:00,810 --> 01:34:03,810 keeps going and it gives you go scroll script PAGE PAGE PAGE 1343 01:34:03,810 --> 01:34:08,130 PAGE all the way down so there's a once you get down to less than 1344 01:34:08,130 --> 01:34:11,550 100 There's just a bazillion of these things so there's what 1345 01:34:11,550 --> 01:34:11,700 kind 1346 01:34:11,700 --> 01:34:14,580 Adam Curry: of names I want to hear the names catwalk cash fly 1347 01:34:15,660 --> 01:34:21,780 Dave Jones: the guardian.com Listen notes. You remember they 1348 01:34:21,780 --> 01:34:28,980 had they have no hosting service? Yeah. My See, my I know 1349 01:34:28,980 --> 01:34:33,270 church.co.uk The chain how many? 1350 01:34:33,300 --> 01:34:38,460 Adam Curry: How many feeds from feeds.no agenda notes.com. What 1351 01:34:38,460 --> 01:34:39,330 is it? No agenda? 1352 01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:41,040 Dave Jones: What is our feed in a show notes? 1353 01:34:41,280 --> 01:34:43,320 Adam Curry: Is that any show notes? Yeah, probably is an 1354 01:34:43,320 --> 01:34:46,590 issue. How many are coming from? Seven? 1355 01:34:48,510 --> 01:34:50,940 Dave Jones: Yes, seven from in a show. notes.com Right. Right 1356 01:34:50,940 --> 01:34:57,360 after na shows.com is web geeks pc.com Catholica pedia.net 1357 01:34:59,700 --> 01:35:02,850 Adam Curry: This Yeah, that's your decentralized web right 1358 01:35:02,850 --> 01:35:03,300 there. 1359 01:35:03,869 --> 01:35:06,989 Dave Jones: That's it. Mockingbird network.com whenever 1360 01:35:06,989 --> 01:35:11,609 that is pod cast edge.com there's I mean, there's a 1361 01:35:11,609 --> 01:35:17,069 million of these in Mississippi state.edu. Yeah, that's That's 1362 01:35:17,129 --> 01:35:22,079 it. Podcasting is already decentralized. It really is. I 1363 01:35:22,079 --> 01:35:26,909 mean, anything we'd add to it is just sort of, it's like an it's 1364 01:35:26,909 --> 01:35:31,379 an overlay. Right? We're not, we're not enhancing it. And you 1365 01:35:31,379 --> 01:35:32,729 know, we aren't what it already is, 1366 01:35:32,760 --> 01:35:34,290 Adam Curry: when I think about it. You know, if you look at 1367 01:35:34,290 --> 01:35:38,250 like, talking about news like Google News, then wonder they 1368 01:35:38,250 --> 01:35:43,470 hate RSS. Because there's not enough we scrape, we organize, 1369 01:35:43,470 --> 01:35:47,550 and we rank it, and we show it, because that's what they do. 1370 01:35:48,630 --> 01:35:51,510 Now, now, that may be under the hood, I'll bet they're picking 1371 01:35:51,510 --> 01:35:55,200 up a lot more RSS feeds, and they'd be willing to admit, but 1372 01:35:55,200 --> 01:35:57,900 Google News, you know, they're, they're pulling it in from all 1373 01:35:57,900 --> 01:36:00,720 these sources. They want to be your news reader. And they don't 1374 01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:03,270 want you to know how to do it yourself. They don't want you to 1375 01:36:03,270 --> 01:36:06,780 do it yourself. They don't want people who are creating news or 1376 01:36:06,780 --> 01:36:11,070 reporting news or whatever it is or what content they don't want 1377 01:36:11,070 --> 01:36:13,890 you to self organize. And that's our job. 1378 01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:19,440 Dave Jones: But ASCII assume that the web is the web is 1379 01:36:19,440 --> 01:36:25,140 decentralized, it's its DNS, its URLs, its links, there's no 1380 01:36:25,170 --> 01:36:27,810 everybody hosts their own thing. That's the ultimate 1381 01:36:27,810 --> 01:36:31,770 decentralization just just just because just because something. 1382 01:36:32,010 --> 01:36:33,270 This is why this is why 1383 01:36:33,270 --> 01:36:35,880 Adam Curry: thing. No, this is why the app ecosystem was built 1384 01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:39,450 was to obfuscate the web. And there was never Steve Jobs, his 1385 01:36:39,480 --> 01:36:45,270 vision. His vision was progressive web apps. If I'm not 1386 01:36:45,270 --> 01:36:45,900 mistaken 1387 01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:49,800 Dave Jones: Yeah, I don't know those those that wasn't paying 1388 01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:54,030 attention to. When the iPhone came first came out, I thought 1389 01:36:54,030 --> 01:36:57,120 it was one of the ones that was like, Oh, this is bullcrap. This 1390 01:36:57,120 --> 01:37:02,520 is gonna listen, this is a joke. This isn't gonna last. Because I 1391 01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,580 was like, that's, nobody's ever gonna type on their screen. 1392 01:37:06,060 --> 01:37:07,320 You're gonna want to look people okay, 1393 01:37:07,320 --> 01:37:10,560 Adam Curry: my wife, she is the best canary in the coal mine. As 1394 01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:15,870 long as you do the opposite. Her two famous claims one who's ever 1395 01:37:15,870 --> 01:37:19,200 going to use a credit card? That makes no sense. 1396 01:37:20,850 --> 01:37:22,710 Dave Jones: The next one that was better than mine. 1397 01:37:23,100 --> 01:37:26,640 Adam Curry: The next one is cool. Want to make a phone call? 1398 01:37:27,120 --> 01:37:30,120 While they're standing outside? Who wants a phone in their 1399 01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:37,740 pocket? I love it. Whenever she says who wants that? I'm like we 1400 01:37:37,740 --> 01:37:46,860 have a winner. This buy stocks now? Yeah, well, good. I'm very, 1401 01:37:47,070 --> 01:37:49,020 the only other thing I just wanted to put on people's radar, 1402 01:37:49,020 --> 01:37:54,060 just want to keep it on the radar is for the live shows. You 1403 01:37:54,060 --> 01:37:57,930 know, the WebSocket I don't know if that's been written up yet. 1404 01:37:59,460 --> 01:38:02,520 As a as a part, I don't know if that's a part of the namespace 1405 01:38:02,520 --> 01:38:07,110 or how we do that. But I always feel super crappy. When I do a 1406 01:38:07,110 --> 01:38:11,550 booster Graham ball live. And people are listening on fountain 1407 01:38:11,550 --> 01:38:14,820 and pod verse, which has great lit lit functionality, but then 1408 01:38:14,820 --> 01:38:17,250 they're boosting and it's not going to the artists. 1409 01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:22,050 Dave Jones: I'm waiting else sort of waiting on podcast guru 1410 01:38:22,050 --> 01:38:26,160 and Steven B to figure out what what that spec was going to be. 1411 01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:29,760 But if you guys need my help, I mean, like if you if you want 1412 01:38:29,970 --> 01:38:33,240 everybody getting involved in that, you know, send out the bat 1413 01:38:33,240 --> 01:38:34,680 signal. So we all know what to do. 1414 01:38:34,980 --> 01:38:39,210 Adam Curry: Yeah, I mean that to me the remote item and the is 1415 01:38:39,210 --> 01:38:42,720 much more important but it's a part of it I guess in a way but 1416 01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:46,410 you know the interface is for the synthetic feeds and you 1417 01:38:46,410 --> 01:38:49,710 know, like the fountain is doing a good job and I've seen the 1418 01:38:49,710 --> 01:38:54,330 podcast guru stuff of you know, tapping in you see booster 1419 01:38:54,330 --> 01:38:57,780 Graham ball, you can find the song. I want to subscribe to 1420 01:38:57,780 --> 01:39:00,540 artists I want to follow artists. That's what I want that 1421 01:39:00,540 --> 01:39:04,320 you know, that's just that mean just like a podcast. I want to 1422 01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:07,650 follow authors for their audio books. I all this stuff, all of 1423 01:39:07,650 --> 01:39:09,540 it. If anybody 1424 01:39:09,540 --> 01:39:11,280 Dave Jones: likes metal that lightning thrash 1425 01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:17,100 Adam Curry: that yeah, you gotta be I gotta be in the right vibe 1426 01:39:17,100 --> 01:39:18,420 for that. You know, 1427 01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:21,120 Dave Jones: you have to get yourself jacked up for metal and 1428 01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:22,320 I'm ready for it all the time. 1429 01:39:22,770 --> 01:39:25,980 Adam Curry: Let me see what the most with the most recent shows 1430 01:39:26,010 --> 01:39:32,640 are. I go to my desktop web app. ln beats love. Love the desktop. 1431 01:39:33,540 --> 01:39:37,680 So we're still at 1313 shows that we're aware of right now. 1432 01:39:37,950 --> 01:39:41,100 Homegrown hits. I like that one a lot. DeLorean like home home 1433 01:39:41,100 --> 01:39:48,630 grown hits. And I bet Sam still a big fan of what is it? It's a 1434 01:39:48,690 --> 01:39:52,050 it's a mood. Yeah, it's a mood. That's cool. I get ideas for the 1435 01:39:52,050 --> 01:39:56,520 show from it's a mood. Let's good. Shall we? thank a few 1436 01:39:56,520 --> 01:39:56,940 people. 1437 01:39:57,480 --> 01:39:58,920 Dave Jones: Yeah, my voice is starting to go 1438 01:39:58,950 --> 01:40:01,440 Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah. Gotta get you back under the covers 1439 01:40:01,470 --> 01:40:08,400 with a hot toddy. T 500 SATs hear from radio Pete boost first 1440 01:40:08,400 --> 01:40:12,780 ever boost Hello we've D virgin as your boost edge. You have the 1441 01:40:12,780 --> 01:40:16,710 main head of my boosting he says go podcasting 2.0 Not listening 1442 01:40:16,710 --> 01:40:20,670 live as I have my head under a grubby bath sorting out a leak 1443 01:40:20,820 --> 01:40:24,690 shall catch up tomorrow with board's permission of course you 1444 01:40:24,690 --> 01:40:30,540 can always catch up tomorrow 33,333 from cotton Jim Pugh we 1445 01:40:30,540 --> 01:40:34,830 got your pew Dred Scott with 5555 which is according to 1446 01:40:35,100 --> 01:40:39,540 Johnson of Warwick a row of swans. Oh, even though it's 1447 01:40:39,540 --> 01:40:43,860 valid. Yeah, even though Well, you know him. And Dred Scott 1448 01:40:43,860 --> 01:40:47,460 says question about the TOC. Will there be issues with TOC 1449 01:40:47,460 --> 01:40:51,570 Inception weirdness when using the relay and your own chapters 1450 01:40:51,570 --> 01:40:56,790 or hybrid chapter, hyperkinetic chapters with its own TOC? I 1451 01:40:56,790 --> 01:41:02,250 think the answer is no. If you mark something as TOC in your 1452 01:41:02,250 --> 01:41:06,300 own chapters, or I don't know if hyper capture has a toggle for 1453 01:41:06,300 --> 01:41:08,250 that. It'll just be respected. 1454 01:41:09,270 --> 01:41:10,980 Dave Jones: Yeah, it should just come straight through. Yeah, 1455 01:41:10,980 --> 01:41:11,070 it's 1456 01:41:11,820 --> 01:41:16,290 Adam Curry: going to be any problems. And by the way, via 1457 01:41:16,290 --> 01:41:19,080 drip, thank you for hanging in there. Some people might have 1458 01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:22,980 gone if this man did blip. I'm not gonna do chapters anymore. 1459 01:41:23,010 --> 01:41:26,100 Some people are like that. You're not. I love you for that. 1460 01:41:26,100 --> 01:41:29,340 Brother. Thank you for hanging in and keeping with it. Yeah, 1461 01:41:29,370 --> 01:41:32,910 because we're basically messing up his art right now. Which is I 1462 01:41:32,910 --> 01:41:36,360 take seriously, I didn't realize how much it would mess it up. 1463 01:41:37,020 --> 01:41:41,670 Now we know sir Sean riser, go podcasting with 1000 SATs or TJ 1464 01:41:41,670 --> 01:41:45,240 the wrathful with 3333 artists check with Mike to see if your 1465 01:41:45,510 --> 01:41:48,570 artists check with Mike to see if you're on the index or just 1466 01:41:48,570 --> 01:41:52,170 don't use wavelike. Use music music side projects. Thank you. 1467 01:41:52,170 --> 01:41:55,140 Dave Jones: It's my bell. Check with my show title is check my 1468 01:41:55,140 --> 01:41:55,650 mic 1469 01:41:56,340 --> 01:41:59,460 Adam Curry: right now and check with my 1470 01:42:00,090 --> 01:42:03,540 Dave Jones: mic. The pull request of the wave Les Paul 1471 01:42:03,540 --> 01:42:03,990 request. 1472 01:42:05,250 --> 01:42:10,200 Adam Curry: Sir Libra 2112 We got I wish I could listen live 1473 01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:13,080 unfortunately working in the Fiat mines. Thank you for all 1474 01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:16,740 the support. There's dovie das with 10,000 SATs. If anyone 1475 01:42:16,740 --> 01:42:19,710 would like to do their own RSS music show, find a link to our 1476 01:42:19,710 --> 01:42:23,010 guide at RSS blue on podcast index dot social. It's in the 1477 01:42:23,010 --> 01:42:27,120 show notes as well. Or email info at RSS blue.com. I'll help 1478 01:42:27,120 --> 01:42:31,050 you get started 3333 from Chad F new tracks also show up at the 1479 01:42:31,050 --> 01:42:34,380 top of search and LNBs Yes, of course it's part of the Steven 1480 01:42:34,380 --> 01:42:38,970 Bell emporium of apps. So that makes nothing but sense. There's 1481 01:42:38,970 --> 01:42:44,490 the two from Dobie das about the DB and the value time splits 1482 01:42:44,490 --> 01:42:48,360 which we read and a millennial 4200. Shout out to Eric PP and 1483 01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:51,960 Dave for the Hello Pat update 10 fold improvement stay on the 1484 01:42:51,960 --> 01:42:52,680 offensive. 1485 01:42:53,250 --> 01:42:56,370 Dave Jones: Oh no. I had nothing to do with this. I literally 1486 01:42:56,370 --> 01:43:01,800 just approved just merge pull request. Doing all of it. Yes. 1487 01:43:01,830 --> 01:43:04,650 Adam Curry: It's a beautiful tool. It's fast. 1488 01:43:05,100 --> 01:43:07,320 Dave Jones: It's basically his app. At this point. I'm just I'm 1489 01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:08,370 just moral support. 1490 01:43:08,490 --> 01:43:10,980 Adam Curry: Well, I'm loving it. I run it on Start OS and it's 1491 01:43:10,980 --> 01:43:15,960 fantastic. 1000 from Sam Sethi, CEO of pod fans. And he says but 1492 01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:20,820 boosting the boost tab. He has a boost. And if extra events put 1493 01:43:20,820 --> 01:43:23,490 them in a new Events tab, but leave the chapters tab alone it 1494 01:43:23,490 --> 01:43:25,440 makes a mess up the UI and conflicts. 1495 01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:29,160 Dave Jones: Well you can split it or you can split it your own 1496 01:43:29,160 --> 01:43:33,750 way. Yeah, exactly. It's in the same file. But when you were in 1497 01:43:33,750 --> 01:43:37,290 your UI you can you can just rip me a rip it out and stick it 1498 01:43:37,290 --> 01:43:39,060 somewhere else. Rip it and stick it 1499 01:43:39,510 --> 01:43:43,470 Adam Curry: to rip it and stick it 10,000 SATs from Sony salty 1500 01:43:43,470 --> 01:43:49,320 crayon. This is salty crayon and we know a salty crayon. Salty 1501 01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:52,020 crayon says how the boardroom just want to say a big thanks to 1502 01:43:52,020 --> 01:43:54,480 both Adam and Dave for getting me to take the plunge into V for 1503 01:43:54,480 --> 01:43:56,910 the music podcast and got something I'm putting together 1504 01:43:56,910 --> 01:43:59,370 and after the developments of the chapter boost and the split 1505 01:43:59,370 --> 01:44:02,520 kit. I'm doing it. Y'all motivated me to dive in and give 1506 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,280 it a shot much appreciated. Go podcasting. Well what's the name 1507 01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:06,120 of your show, bro? 1508 01:44:07,500 --> 01:44:09,270 Dave Jones: Let us critical mistake yeah. 1509 01:44:11,070 --> 01:44:15,870 Adam Curry: 13,579 from chimp who just says tallyho tallyho to 1510 01:44:15,870 --> 01:44:18,600 you says it twice with twice that amount. Thank you meet us. 1511 01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:22,410 5000 SATs loving the helipad update. Thank you brother. Thank 1512 01:44:22,410 --> 01:44:27,270 you Eric P P again chat F pod verse is a go. Okay, I guess. 1513 01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:31,530 dribs start Gribbs up with a super oh he is can't remember 1514 01:44:31,530 --> 01:44:36,000 what JCD called this booth booths a row of swans geese. Any 1515 01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:41,190 just 55,555 sets. Thank you Brother Go podcasting. We got 1516 01:44:41,850 --> 01:44:45,330 let me see. I think I think that's it. That's it for the 1517 01:44:45,330 --> 01:44:48,030 live booths and thank you all very much for supporting the 1518 01:44:48,030 --> 01:44:51,870 live and lit show of podcasting 2.0 With your value in return 1519 01:44:51,870 --> 01:44:54,420 for the value you obviously are receiving 1520 01:44:56,520 --> 01:45:00,900 Dave Jones: the two the two Archangels of The casting 2.0 1521 01:45:00,900 --> 01:45:10,380 Marco Arment $500 Whoa 20 his blades on the Impala and Kevin 1522 01:45:10,380 --> 01:45:12,360 and Tom from Buzzsprout $500. 1523 01:45:13,920 --> 01:45:16,080 Adam Curry: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you rose. 1524 01:45:16,110 --> 01:45:19,830 That's so appreciated that always makes us feel good at the 1525 01:45:19,830 --> 01:45:23,100 end of the month that we know that we we can pay the bills. 1526 01:45:23,670 --> 01:45:26,400 Dave Jones: I had had beers with Tom. He was in town here in 1527 01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:29,460 Birmingham couple weeks ago. Oh, cool. It was great. We went and 1528 01:45:29,460 --> 01:45:32,700 had some brews and talked about everything in the world for a 1529 01:45:32,700 --> 01:45:34,290 couple hours. It was great to see him again. 1530 01:45:34,530 --> 01:45:36,120 Adam Curry: What was he doing in Birmingham? So you have family 1531 01:45:36,120 --> 01:45:36,420 there? 1532 01:45:37,500 --> 01:45:41,070 Dave Jones: It was a family thing but like him, I think is 1533 01:45:41,100 --> 01:45:44,130 his daughter was visiting a college up here. Oh, okay. So it 1534 01:45:44,130 --> 01:45:46,980 stopped me I stopped by to say hey, and hang out for a while. 1535 01:45:47,010 --> 01:45:51,630 Oh, very cool. Yeah. See we got some that was it for PE pals. We 1536 01:45:51,630 --> 01:45:56,970 got some booster grams. We get up to speed devil. Ainsley 1537 01:45:56,970 --> 01:46:02,640 Costello 2500 SATs, pod fans. Love the show this week. So 1538 01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:05,730 excited to be such a big part of solving for a new music 1539 01:46:05,730 --> 01:46:08,640 industry. Big solving for music 1540 01:46:08,670 --> 01:46:12,600 Adam Curry: like that. Definitely, definitely. Big part 1541 01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:13,050 a 1542 01:46:13,440 --> 01:46:17,400 Dave Jones: mere mortals podcast Kyron 2222. Through fountain he 1543 01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:21,690 says it's true. It really is all my fault. To clarify, to 1544 01:46:21,690 --> 01:46:24,390 clarify, mere mortals is where I do all the interviewing 1545 01:46:24,390 --> 01:46:27,630 conversations. The value for value podcast is for education 1546 01:46:27,630 --> 01:46:30,180 and explaining the ethos practical implementation, 1547 01:46:30,540 --> 01:46:33,900 boosting dis at the appropriate section to see how it will show 1548 01:46:33,900 --> 01:46:37,140 up in the comments. They will hate you for it. 1549 01:46:37,920 --> 01:46:41,160 Adam Curry: You're a hated man now. Boasting everybody you're 1550 01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:41,910 ruining it. 1551 01:46:43,320 --> 01:46:47,250 Dave Jones: Gene bein good job on pod on the pod news weekly 1552 01:46:47,250 --> 01:46:49,020 review gene. Yes. 1553 01:46:49,290 --> 01:46:51,180 Adam Curry: That was funny to hear him. I liked that. It was 1554 01:46:51,210 --> 01:46:57,300 it was cool to hear him do the alley loops for for for James. 1555 01:46:57,870 --> 01:47:02,580 Dave Jones: There's rumble that he has radio chops from the past 1556 01:47:02,580 --> 01:47:05,880 but he didn't talk about that on the show. But there's lots 1557 01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:07,410 Adam Curry: of rumble. He's doing well. He's got some new 1558 01:47:07,410 --> 01:47:10,590 things coming out. Like some sermons or something. I'm very 1559 01:47:10,590 --> 01:47:12,480 interested to hear what he's what he's got coming out. 1560 01:47:13,770 --> 01:47:16,380 Dave Jones: 2020 teeth or cast Matic he says I had an idea 1561 01:47:16,380 --> 01:47:20,460 about the deep the deep kinks. I think he may have seen deep 1562 01:47:20,460 --> 01:47:26,280 links but he said deep key Okay. I've got to click on this 1563 01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:26,850 interesting 1564 01:47:26,850 --> 01:47:29,130 Adam Curry: autocorrect What have you been texting people? 1565 01:47:30,780 --> 01:47:34,740 Dave Jones: You know, it is a I had an idea about the deep kinks 1566 01:47:34,740 --> 01:47:38,100 David Dave talked about. But figure the details made more 1567 01:47:38,100 --> 01:47:41,670 sense on Mastodon and he has a link to a post to on Mastodon 1568 01:47:41,670 --> 01:47:45,210 what does he say? He says, me it doesn't already exist. Could you 1569 01:47:45,210 --> 01:47:50,100 all define a podcast deep link spec? That says deeplinks? Dot 1570 01:47:50,100 --> 01:47:53,910 podcast? index.org. Channel good item good should prompt opening 1571 01:47:53,910 --> 01:47:58,920 any podcast app somewhere now. Yeah. Okay. So we've had lots of 1572 01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:06,000 different goes at this in the past? And here's the the quick 1573 01:48:06,000 --> 01:48:10,260 answer is yes, we could do this. We could do what you talked 1574 01:48:10,260 --> 01:48:15,690 about, which is have a linking service where we where you link 1575 01:48:15,690 --> 01:48:19,920 to a podcast episode on the podcast index, and then we 1576 01:48:20,100 --> 01:48:22,650 provide a bunch of links to open them up in the corresponding 1577 01:48:22,650 --> 01:48:27,930 apps. The reason that I haven't done it is because there are 1578 01:48:27,930 --> 01:48:34,830 podcast services out there that already do this. That also use 1579 01:48:34,860 --> 01:48:38,730 us. Yeah, we don't want to compete our our ethos is never 1580 01:48:38,730 --> 01:48:42,630 compete, right? We just don't want to go out and do something 1581 01:48:42,690 --> 01:48:49,680 and, like, like plink, or you know, these services, they 1582 01:48:49,740 --> 01:48:52,770 already do it and I'm not gonna go in and start doing things 1583 01:48:52,770 --> 01:48:53,700 that other people are already doing. 1584 01:48:53,700 --> 01:48:56,820 Adam Curry: Right. We do not want to be a DNS destination. We 1585 01:48:56,820 --> 01:48:58,920 just want to be a playground. Yeah. 1586 01:49:01,260 --> 01:49:04,380 Dave Jones: Gene if you want to build it, yeah, you should build 1587 01:49:04,380 --> 01:49:09,930 that and then and then make it available. And then we'll, you 1588 01:49:09,930 --> 01:49:12,030 know, we'll talk about and promote and all that kind of 1589 01:49:12,030 --> 01:49:16,110 stuff, but we'd we're not going to do it. No. Gene been again, 1590 01:49:16,110 --> 01:49:20,340 what was the 13372 caspases. Okay, that was cool. I pause the 1591 01:49:20,340 --> 01:49:23,910 show, boosted, hit play and saw my boosts show up as Chapter 1592 01:49:23,910 --> 01:49:24,150 art. 1593 01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:28,920 Adam Curry: Wow. That's very cool. That is pretty cool. 1594 01:49:28,950 --> 01:49:32,160 That's it that fast. Um, what is what is my Franco doing over 1595 01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:36,690 there? I don't know. It might very cool. 1596 01:49:36,690 --> 01:49:39,060 Dave Jones: I think he pulls the fresh chapter file every time 1597 01:49:39,060 --> 01:49:45,510 you hit play. Wow. Oh, that's cool. RP 1984 4000 says do 1598 01:49:45,510 --> 01:49:49,170 fountain he says FYI, office hours. 2.0 has been playing V 1599 01:49:49,170 --> 01:49:53,760 for V music recently. Okay, office hours. That's Jupiter. 1600 01:49:53,970 --> 01:49:59,220 Chris. Over there. Jupiter broadcasting cool. Cameron 9999, 1601 01:49:59,220 --> 01:50:01,680 I'm assuming This is the Cameron 1602 01:50:01,710 --> 01:50:05,160 Adam Curry: the Cameron of IPFS. Podcasting. dotnet 1603 01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:08,280 Dave Jones: Yes. And this Depop verse he says, hell yeah for the 1604 01:50:08,280 --> 01:50:11,760 split calculator. Oh, yes. Sounds like something he would 1605 01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:18,450 say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's on the to do list. Todd from 1606 01:50:18,450 --> 01:50:21,900 Northern Virginia 22 to 22. Well, the voices really crack 1607 01:50:21,900 --> 01:50:21,990 and 1608 01:50:21,990 --> 01:50:23,460 Adam Curry: you're almost there, brother. Hang in. 1609 01:50:24,030 --> 01:50:24,930 Dave Jones: I see the light. 1610 01:50:26,280 --> 01:50:28,350 Adam Curry: You like remember that episode, The Brady Bunch 1611 01:50:28,350 --> 01:50:32,130 where the kid's voice starts to change. Greg. Greg one of them. 1612 01:50:33,030 --> 01:50:35,550 Can't sing was the partridge with May was the Partridge 1613 01:50:35,550 --> 01:50:38,100 Family. I can't remember. No, I know it's Brady was Brady Bunch, 1614 01:50:38,460 --> 01:50:40,260 Dave Jones: because the song was changed 1615 01:50:44,250 --> 01:50:47,280 Adam Curry: that you're just like that. Oh, thanks. Yeah, 1616 01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:49,260 you're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. 1617 01:50:49,290 --> 01:50:53,940 Dave Jones: You only you can see my braces. Todd from Northern va 1618 01:50:53,940 --> 01:50:58,200 22 to 22 through pod verse he says. Road ducks go podcasting. 1619 01:50:59,220 --> 01:51:03,990 Adam Curry: Man you are really on the last party. I know what 1620 01:51:03,990 --> 01:51:04,800 this feels like. 1621 01:51:06,630 --> 01:51:13,440 Dave Jones: fussy. slewed. 54321 through fountain he says, I my 1622 01:51:13,440 --> 01:51:22,140 wife is a gypsy and I'm a Romanian and you talk Yes. And 1623 01:51:22,140 --> 01:51:25,380 using the word Romani as the new word for gypsy is cultural 1624 01:51:25,380 --> 01:51:31,320 appropriation by the gypsies. Okay. Also the stereotypes you 1625 01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,170 were throwing out as far as envisioning a gypsy are mostly 1626 01:51:34,170 --> 01:51:34,710 accurate 1627 01:51:35,549 --> 01:51:37,769 Adam Curry: with a blouse and the gold earrings and the nose 1628 01:51:37,769 --> 01:51:40,169 ring Yes. All right. We Nailed it. Nailed it. 1629 01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:46,110 Dave Jones: CASP eland 3693 Found any says fix the license 1630 01:51:46,110 --> 01:51:53,250 thanks for the work. Guys Kyron 1111 a satchel Richards the 1631 01:51:53,250 --> 01:51:57,240 podcast indexer says Could you explain what the MK Ultra chat 1632 01:51:57,240 --> 01:52:00,000 is? Again, please, I want to start looking at getting a chat 1633 01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:02,700 room for my podcast. Is this something that would suit my use 1634 01:52:02,700 --> 01:52:10,470 case? The answer is eventually Yes. Right now No. Because it's 1635 01:52:11,310 --> 01:52:20,430 it's still in pieces. Chat Room for the the MK Ultra chat is is 1636 01:52:20,460 --> 01:52:24,180 a ephemeral chat where you spin up a chat room and it just lasts 1637 01:52:24,180 --> 01:52:28,560 as long as the show so that's the way that works. I will 1638 01:52:28,860 --> 01:52:33,120 eventually get back to that project but I would say for a 1639 01:52:33,120 --> 01:52:38,070 chat room look at something like I mean just use activity pub 1640 01:52:38,100 --> 01:52:43,620 honestly just be it throw it through as a that's my chat 1641 01:52:43,620 --> 01:52:43,920 room. 1642 01:52:44,550 --> 01:52:46,350 Adam Curry: Oh, that's an IRC channel. 1643 01:52:47,460 --> 01:52:49,380 Dave Jones: Yeah, if you jump on IRC 1644 01:52:49,440 --> 01:52:51,990 Adam Curry: I think you can use the void zero.net and create a 1645 01:52:51,990 --> 01:52:56,010 channel Yeah, great. I think you're free to do that they're 1646 01:52:57,180 --> 01:53:00,930 not gonna last mortals will have severe void zero to hook you up. 1647 01:53:01,650 --> 01:53:04,650 Okay, and be just like just like we're just like the big boys 1648 01:53:04,650 --> 01:53:05,760 just like the pros Carmen 1649 01:53:06,450 --> 01:53:13,230 Dave Jones: the Pro. Let's see 33 over 10 69,000 SATs breeze Oh 1650 01:53:13,230 --> 01:53:17,280 through breeze Oh, he says my boost was short probably 1651 01:53:17,280 --> 01:53:20,700 lightning liquidity things so here's the rest JC days lost his 1652 01:53:20,700 --> 01:53:22,200 Dave Moses his game. 1653 01:53:24,510 --> 01:53:27,450 Adam Curry: Okay, yeah, thank you. I saw that come in, as 1654 01:53:27,450 --> 01:53:29,550 well. I appreciate that. You 33 Thank you. 1655 01:53:30,390 --> 01:53:34,470 Dave Jones: Nicholas B 5822 to 22 found and he says listened on 1656 01:53:34,470 --> 01:53:40,590 web needed to boost Yeah, boost. Thank you brother. And the 1657 01:53:40,620 --> 01:53:43,230 delimiter which threw me a curveball this week because he 1658 01:53:43,230 --> 01:53:46,740 sent 30 2015 instead of 30 3015 1659 01:53:47,790 --> 01:53:51,090 Adam Curry: Yes, this is because of the value of Bitcoin has gone 1660 01:53:51,090 --> 01:53:54,330 up versus fiat money so he's keeping it in check. 1661 01:53:54,900 --> 01:53:58,980 Dave Jones: Okay, he's got a skis recalc he recalculated? 1662 01:53:58,980 --> 01:53:59,490 recalc 1663 01:53:59,490 --> 01:54:00,030 Adam Curry: recal 1664 01:54:00,090 --> 01:54:04,170 Dave Jones: Okay, cool Mr. Blogger says howdy non Slavic 1665 01:54:04,170 --> 01:54:08,370 Caucasians days and add. Ever wonder how much rage you're 1666 01:54:08,370 --> 01:54:17,460 packing to Planet rage. Okay. All right. Let me I gotta 1667 01:54:17,460 --> 01:54:21,390 swallow here. To an end to Planet rage. Where two 1668 01:54:21,390 --> 01:54:25,080 Caucasians one of them half Slavic. Rate Your theory on the 1669 01:54:25,080 --> 01:54:29,100 latest world blunders. This week. Biden as a war president, 1670 01:54:29,280 --> 01:54:33,570 and why Keith Oberman is our rent radar. Celebrating 100 1671 01:54:33,570 --> 01:54:37,410 Fiery episodes. Join the rage parade because misery loves 1672 01:54:37,410 --> 01:54:42,960 comedy visit WWW dot Planit rage dot show and let boil some blood 1673 01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:44,700 together. Yo CSB. 1674 01:54:46,050 --> 01:54:49,470 Adam Curry: Thank you all very much for your contributions. 1675 01:54:49,500 --> 01:54:54,090 I'll do a quick a quick check of the tally coin but that's just 1676 01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:58,170 an afterthought because no one uses it. Nope. Oh wait, I'm 1677 01:54:58,170 --> 01:55:08,370 wrong. Whoa, whoa. Get up. Chimp. Chimp. Yep. 95,564 I'll 1678 01:55:08,370 --> 01:55:14,010 call that a baller boost. That's tap tap. Is this thing on? Yes 1679 01:55:14,010 --> 01:55:16,110 it is. It works. You did it 1680 01:55:16,650 --> 01:55:19,380 Dave Jones: wasn't wasn't the gym pool fees? That is a baller 1681 01:55:19,380 --> 01:55:19,980 boost. Wasn't 1682 01:55:19,980 --> 01:55:22,950 Adam Curry: that chimp the same one that did we see chimp 1683 01:55:22,980 --> 01:55:24,090 earlier on? 1684 01:55:25,380 --> 01:55:27,600 Dave Jones: Yeah, he sent one. Yeah, yeah. 1685 01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:30,960 Adam Curry: Oh you said tallyho maybe that was the key the code 1686 01:55:30,960 --> 01:55:36,420 word tallyho go to tally coin. I got it. Okay, well, it nailed 1687 01:55:36,420 --> 01:55:43,410 it. Dude. You can find the tallyho for on chain, Bitcoin at 1688 01:55:43,650 --> 01:55:46,950 podcast index.org Scroll down to the bottom two big red buttons 1689 01:55:46,950 --> 01:55:50,730 not to the platform somebody but to donate. One goes to the Fiat 1690 01:55:50,730 --> 01:55:55,440 fun coupon gateway which is being used less and less each 1691 01:55:55,440 --> 01:55:59,460 day which is good. Although we always appreciate our hosting 1692 01:55:59,460 --> 01:56:03,420 partners and Marco and people jumping in with some some good 1693 01:56:03,420 --> 01:56:06,540 coinage at the end of the month is highly appreciated. Also, 1694 01:56:06,540 --> 01:56:09,720 we've got a link there to the tally coin and of course we 1695 01:56:09,750 --> 01:56:13,710 recommend that you get a podcasting 2.0 app. It is the 1696 01:56:13,710 --> 01:56:16,470 wave of the future and we appreciate all the support you 1697 01:56:16,470 --> 01:56:18,840 give us your time your talent and your treasure and there's a 1698 01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:22,650 lot of the the first two T's going around and you can find 1699 01:56:22,650 --> 01:56:25,050 that podcast index dot social you can follow Dave at 1700 01:56:25,050 --> 01:56:27,300 podcasting. Next is social adamant podcast index dot 1701 01:56:27,300 --> 01:56:31,590 social. Or if you really feel you need to be on the server hit 1702 01:56:31,590 --> 01:56:34,260 us up. We'll be happy to send you an invite link. Brother, I'm 1703 01:56:34,260 --> 01:56:37,860 gonna let you go. Get some monthlies though we get. Oh, I'm 1704 01:56:37,860 --> 01:56:39,390 sorry. Yes, please do the monthlies. 1705 01:56:39,660 --> 01:56:43,350 Dave Jones: You got Michael Gagan $5 Charles current $5 Sean 1706 01:56:43,350 --> 01:56:48,180 McCune $20 Thank you. Shawn Cohen glotzbach $5, Christopher 1707 01:56:48,180 --> 01:56:53,790 reamer $10 James Sullivan $10 Jordan Dunnville $10 Dred Scott 1708 01:56:53,970 --> 01:56:57,480 $15 and Michael Kimmerer $5.33. 1709 01:56:57,990 --> 01:57:00,810 Adam Curry: These matters. These are really sustaining monthlies. 1710 01:57:00,810 --> 01:57:03,150 We appreciate that. We can always count on those. Each one 1711 01:57:03,150 --> 01:57:06,360 of those is one or maybe two or sometimes three servers. So 1712 01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:10,410 believe me, it really does matter. Brother now I really do 1713 01:57:10,410 --> 01:57:13,200 have to You gotta stop. You gotta stop. You gotta stop. 1714 01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:15,360 Thank you chat room. We love you. thank everybody who's 1715 01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:18,090 listening our live studio audience. Dave, thank you so 1716 01:57:18,090 --> 01:57:21,420 much. My brother will be talking feel better. He'll he'll he'll 1717 01:57:21,810 --> 01:57:23,910 Thank you, man. No, he's supposed to sit when I say he'll 1718 01:57:23,940 --> 01:57:29,280 lie. All right, everybody. That's it for the board meeting. 1719 01:57:29,280 --> 01:57:31,710 We'll be back next Friday on the board meeting right here 1720 01:57:31,710 --> 01:57:33,840 podcasting 2.0. 1721 01:57:50,460 --> 01:57:55,050 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast 1722 01:57:55,050 --> 01:57:57,780 index.org. For more information, 1723 01:57:58,230 --> 01:57:59,220 Adam Curry: go podcast 1724 01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:01,740 Dave Jones: to stick in your app.