Adam Curry: By casting coupon over January 5 2024, episode 162
UHNWIs unwrapped. Well, well Well hello, everybody. Welcome
to 2024 Welcome to podcasting. This is the official board
meeting of podcasting. Forget any other show. This is where
podcasting takes place. This is where you hear what's really
going on with the podcast industrial complex with the
future of podcasting with value for value, everything with a
namespace podcast index.org And of course, everything we're
discussing at podcast index dot social, the only boardroom
without an agenda or meticulous minutes. That's right. I'm out
here in the heart of the country. And in Alabama. The man
who was alpha is better than the year beta say hello to my friend
on the other end. Dave Jones.
Will you muted? Yes. Because you worried myself because you were
munching on something again? No, I
Dave Jones: was frantically typing there in moving crap
around on my screen. I didn't want to make a bunch of noise.
And live troubleshooting the AP bridge.
Adam Curry: Oh, boy. Yes, yes. For those who were not listening
live. We, we we were waiting for that. We've had some problems
with the Fetty with the fediverse bridging as a few a
few issues.
Dave Jones: What I'm going to do so you got you got the live pod
thing went out? Yes. They
Adam Curry: went out because we saw it come to the boost the
live bot. Yeah. Got it.
Dave Jones: I got it on my phone. We
Adam Curry: are live and live. Hello, everybody. Hello, Sam
Sethi in the UK. Hello. Got your red wine. He's drinking. We've
driven him to dream.
Dave Jones: We tend to do that with most mate most people
Adam Curry: have to drink when they listen to us. Yes, I know.
Dave Jones: Yeah. If you're recovering, don't don't listen
to the show. You will fall off the wagon. So it's funny, by the
way, whenever you send the live pod thing out, all the apps
START push notification group is like
Adam Curry: I have Yeah, I had to turn a couple of them off.
Because it was it my screen was getting too crowded. You know,
it was getting making me anxious. Like, oh, I wake up in
the morning. There's a whole row of things. Now of course,
subsequently, I sometimes miss the new media show, ping which
is a bummer because I love interacting with those guys
live. That's always hilarious.
Dave Jones: Let's see. Okay, so I'm gonna do I'm gonna ping the
hub right now because there's gonna be so we know the podcast.
The excuse me, the pod ping live notification went out. Because
we got that and in the podcast live bought, picked on activity
pub picked it up. I
Adam Curry: got notifications here.
Dave Jones: Because so I'm going to do C pub dot podcast
index.org/pub Notify ID equal nine to 0666. Yeah.
Adam Curry: What is up with the 666 ID man that's irritating.
That that was just chosen for us at random by
Dave Jones: No, we're being stalked by dark buysafe we have
a we have a booster gram from satan today as well. So we're
gonna
Adam Curry: see live. So what Dave is doing if you're new, we
are working on fed defying the podcast index, which means that
you can actually follow podcasts, any podcast in the
index from any Mastodon account or anything that speaks activity
pub, which is cool, because it basically is built the biggest
podcast app in the world. Just the way I see it. And there's
all kinds of groovy things we can do with it, which the only
you only had this work in last week. So I mean, doesn't
surprise me that stuff breaks and burps and farts and does
stuff. It's fine.
Dave Jones: Oh, this this is the alpha test of alpha software at
this point. I mean, it's barely hanging together.
Adam Curry: And it's funny how how I get used to just okay,
it's working good. I'm putting it into my production flow.
We're rockin and rollin.
Dave Jones: That's why I've rolled this out to you because
you break the heck out of everything.
Adam Curry: It's my job. It is my absolute job.
Dave Jones: It's an absolute you're a hammer. It's not coming
through. This is this is aggravating.
Adam Curry: Is it? Is it in the inbox, though? Is in the inbox?
The
Dave Jones: inbox?
Adam Curry: Yeah. Well, that's
Dave Jones: the Oh, you mean the outbox? Yeah, that's
Adam Curry: what I mean. Yeah. Okay, one guy's outbox is
another guy's inbox. Okay. Matter of looking at looking at
things.
Dave Jones: See, outbox? I don't know. Let's check, because
Adam Curry: that's, that's what happened last time. Someone
said, Oh, look, it's in the outbox. So it seems to be like
some kind of signing issue. How about that? How about that?
Dave Jones: This would not be in the outbox, typically, because
Adam Curry: I had posted no agenda and it wasn't showing on
the Fed. Reverse, but it was in the outbox.
Dave Jones: Yes. So Okay. Well, here's. Yeah. It's not in now,
but this would not be in the outbox because live the live
notifications do not go into the outbox.
Adam Curry: There's a bridge to the bridge. That's take it to
the branch.
Dave Jones: It says we're bridge or bridge and bridges. Okay,
gotcha. Okay. The the, the regular posts when new episodes
go into the feed, those are in the outbox, right. Got it. Live
notifications do not go into the outbox. Now, maybe they should.
But that doesn't seem like it. I don't know. I mean, I'm open,
I'm open to
Adam Curry: well open to have my mind. Why don't you just since
we're on the topic I have at the top of my list, let's just give
us a little status on the Fed ification of the index, because
this is where we left off last last year. And I'm super excited
by by this development, it's it opens up so many opportunities
once we get it to work.
Dave Jones: Steven crater said, Where did they go there?
Adam Curry: Who knows? into the ether, man, stop asking
questions crater.
Dave Jones: Yeah, like, okay, so they, they go to the inbox of
other servers, which also answers FPPS question. He says,
Does the bridge also have to post to the master to master on
them? But yes, so. So So yes, the here's let me just let me
just go back and look and talk a little bit about structure
because they basically this week with ag with the AP bridge was
nothing but refactoring just isn't, and it's not the the code
that I've worked on all week is not even in production yet.
Okay? Cuz I can't. I just ran out of time, I was trying to get
what, uh, what I need to do, oh, really, before I can get this
thing to be open, is take out those hard coded keys. And so
that's what I was trying to do this morning. And it just, I
just did not have time. So that's, that's all I have to do.
And then I'm going to open it up, that's should be it stupid,
because it should be a simple thing. They should be like, you
know, just something so easy. But with with rust, that's,
that's often where you know, where you go. And check yourself
into it. The Insane Asylum is when you think that this should
be easy. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, you know, this, your,
this borrow you? This statical eight, and you need to have a
static lifetime, because this variable doesn't live long
enough and goes out of scope before it's like, Oh, wow. Okay.
Adam Curry: Yeah. So you might as well have a girlfriend, if
you're gonna talk that language to me. Well,
Dave Jones: that's why you don't have girlfriends, if you're
gonna have if you know how to talk that language, you have no
women in your life, right? Or if you do, they all hate you. So
here's, here's the way the structure is currently. And this
as for the refactor code, as well as, as well as what's
what's actually live right now. So there's, there's a web
server. Remember, this is all based on the, on the core front,
this core little tiny, elegant web server framework of that
heli pad in MK Ultra, and pod ping dot cloud are based on. So
it's very simple. It's, it's a main process thread that spawns
individual threads for incoming web requests, and then putting
in there's a router. And then there's a request handler, it's,
it's just the whole thing is like, I don't know, 500 lines of
code for an entire web server in it's like, rock solid. So
that's, that's what the core of of it is. And then, but then
when the when you start the server, it also spawns two
additional threads. So one thread is an episode checker.
And it just on a loop checks constantly with the index. To
find out if there's been new episodes. Wow,
Adam Curry: shouldn't it be using pod
Dave Jones: pay? Well,
Adam Curry: that's next level. There's
Dave Jones: a net Well, no, it does. So but but not all. Not
all feeds are pod, of course. So you have there's so it's
constantly doing that. And it's like once it's like one a second
you know, it's it's not it's being nice. So then it's doing
that as one there's a initial just looping is running all the
time. And then there's another loop, another thread that gets
spawned to listen to Spurlock's pod thing. WebSocket.
Adam Curry: Right? That's where it's supposed to do the live
update.
Dave Jones: Yes. And so whenever it basically just the thread
spawns it, it connects to the WebSocket, and then enters a
loop, waiting for a read for read activity. When a new
message comes in, it checks. It calls the index. Because here's
the issue. So there's a little bit of there's a little bit of
like, I don't know what you would call it, a little bit of
running around, that has to happen because pod ping operates
on feed URLs. That's really all it can operate on. So it
operates purely on feed URLs. And the reason code and reason
codes, yes, and mediums. So in the pay a payload for a pod ping
is a feed URL, a medium and a reason code. The the feed URL,
so there's no sense of any kind of feed ID anywhere in this. So
but the AP bridge operates on feed
Adam Curry: IDs, so you have to do a lookup there. Yes. So
Dave Jones: there has to be a reverse lookup. So I'm watching
the pod ping web socket. And when a message comes in, I say,
okay, podcast just went live. And it's this feed URL. What's
the idea? Yeah, how do I know if that's one that we watch or not?
Does anybody follow this? You know, who knows. So I have to
convert that feed URL into a podcast index ID, which requires
a podcast index look up. So every time I see a live, pod
ping go out, you got to do a lookup on the API, get the ID,
but at the same time, you don't want to have the multiple calls.
So you just go ahead and do all of them at once. So basically,
there's an endpoint. I'm not even sure if I've made it public
yet. But there's an endpoint called Live, see, live by Feed
URL in it, and you give it a URL, and it gives you back all
the live items that we currently know about for that URL. And a
bunch of them and all the feed metadata and everything that
goes with it. So you can get the ID and everything you can you
can get every all that stuff in one call. Will if, if the fifth
you will have to wait, you know, because the pod pain goes out.
Then we parse the feed in the index, and update the live item.
But the so we have I have to wait for for like, I think it's
like 60 seconds from getting the pod paying to give the index
time enough to parse the feed so that the index data is current.
So that it gives me the you know, like correct data about
the current state of live? Sure. Okay. So that's, that's like the
there's like a timing little
Adam Curry: bit of time loop. Yeah, you can miss it. You can
you can check too early.
Dave Jones: Yes, you can check too early for sure.
Adam Curry: This is a Rube Goldberg Machine Man that I
don't know what you're you're building here. The dominoes
dominoes trip the spoon that hits the golf ball. It hits the
falls into the glass. The glass splashes the water. Exactly.
Dave Jones: Yeah. And then a firecracker goes off and scares
the chicken glaze and a witch. Yeah, exactly. This is all a
podcasting. By the way. It is a huge Rube Goldberg
Adam Curry: true it's true that's called interrupt in the
in some worlds
Dave Jones: so that's that's what's happening all the time.
So what happened? What happened this past week when everybody
started saying hey, I'm not getting notifications of new
episodes. One of the three one of those threads the thread that
the thread that checks the podcast index a fresh new add
crash first
Adam Curry: of all, how you should be very happy and and you
I would say you can be proud of the fact that people were
complaining that means people were already like interested in
it.
Dave Jones: This is good. It warms my heart.
Adam Curry: It warms your heart and then immediately you got a
black hole in your soul because the feet you're threaded crashed
Dave Jones: your heart can be warm and pissed off at the same
time. Possible as possible. Yeah, and so the the it had it
had crashed and I don't know this for sure yet because I
really could not afford the distraction of hunting that bug
while also refactoring this, this code, because, here's,
well, I don't want to get off into many different, different
rabbit trails, but just what it almost certainly is almost
almost 100% Sure this is what it is, is, is an unwise unwrap. So
unwrapped something that should have stayed rat is basically,
we've, we've talked about this before. Rust is modern language
in many modern language employ this idea of of a variable that
you're able to wrap what you could call wrap a variable. So
you can let's say you have a variable of a podcast index ID.
So this variable is going to hold is supposed to hold a
number, so there should be issue holding an integer like the
integer of this show 920666. So that should be like let's just
say a 64 bit unsigned integer, that variable can in a modern
way, in modern languages like swift and rust, and that kind of
thing, they can be what's called wrapped, meaning that you can
create a new, there's a new type called and actually in Rust,
there's two different ones, you can have an option or not, or
some people call an optional, you have an option or you have
Adam Curry: a result. So it's like an it's an abstraction of
the variable.
Dave Jones: It is the variable lives inside of the RET of the
wrapped of the rat, the variable lives inside a type in the type,
let's just does you say option. Okay? So option is an option can
be either some or none. So none is sort of like null or nil. Or
in JavaScript, undefined, something like that. It's just a
value that means this damage is inherent, you know what you're
looking for doesn't exist, essentially. And then the the
converse of that is some which means yes, there is a value
here, you're looking for a variable called podcast index
ID. And I'm telling you, there is some value here. So you got
Adam Curry: to unwrap it to figure out what it is. Yes,
Dave Jones: exactly. You can say Holy crap, I'm programming
Adam Curry: rust, everybody
Dave Jones: print the transcript and compile it. Yes. So there's
also another there's another version of that is very similar
to that, called result. It's a result is basically the same
ideas option, except it operates with, you can have either an N
Okay, or error. There's your your to those instead of some
and none. Now you have Okay, an error it's meant for it's really
meant for returning from a function and letting the calling
method know whether or not that function was successful or not.
So if you get back in, okay, you unwrap it, you're good to go.
You got your value, you
Adam Curry: got value. God Yeah.
Dave Jones: So there is a it just again, like many, like most
modern languages that that incorporate this feature. Hold
on, hold on, wait, hold
Adam Curry: on a second day. Champs have to wake up. Okay. So
I'm dozing off.
Dave Jones: We got him early in his first class and one so he's
still we're lucky. We're lucky. So like most modern languages
that incorporate this, this idea or this feature, there is a way
to force the unwrapping. Okay, so now, now you're not checking
to see if it's so like in Rust, you would say something like
this, if podcast index id.is some meaning if there's a value
there. Yeah. Or if podcast index id.is. None the meaning. So you
would do a check like that beforehand. But but when you're
prototyping code, and you're going,
Adam Curry: going quickly to get you just want to get it no
matter what. Yeah, because you're like, Hey, I
Dave Jones: know. I don't care if it crashes, it's fine. It's
kind of science graduate. But I just want this I don't want to
have to build all this logic, all this error checking logic,
I'll do that, quote unquote, later,
Adam Curry: and that's what the wrapping is for is for error
checking logic. Right. And so
Dave Jones: you say it Exactly so that you can avoid crashing
in written runtime. But, so you can do I think in Swift, it's
the exclamation point will unwrap a variable. In rust. It's
either the question mark, or you can explicitly say dot unwrap.
And that will, that will treat the variable as if there's
something there and we'll, we'll return its content. So if
there's nothing there, you get a thread panic and you cry you
Adam Curry: crash. Okay, I got it. So that's the problem is
that it? Either check too early, too late or something and it was
zero and you didn't have any, you didn't have the user to
force unwrap. And then it had nothing to do with
Dave Jones: PS exec thread panic done that. But it didn't. But it
does not crash the entire it doesn't crash the entire AP
bridge and only crashes read
Adam Curry: read write? Yes. Well, that's what threads are
for.
Dave Jones: Right, exactly. It's exactly what I shouldn't be
doing is either one of n and most likely both of these two
things I should be properly checking all unwraps which I'm
almost certainly not doing as as Alex likes to say unwrapping
things for Christmas. And, and also checking to see if the
thread crashes and bringing it back to life spawning a new
thread. And doing neither one of them.
Adam Curry: Okay, I gotcha. Gotcha.
Dave Jones: I guess I'm a bad program. Boy, naughty. I'm on
the bad list.
Adam Curry: All right. Oh, my goodness. Thanks, Dave.
Dave Jones: Is that a bad way to start a show?
Adam Curry: I don't know. I mean, anyone's that the
boardroom is quiet. No one's saying anything anymore in their
heads are all on their keyboards. You know, I'm
expecting any minute now for someone to shoot a whole long
row of peas, you know, just fall asleep on the keyboard. While
we're in at this level, let me just run through a couple of
things. And then I have some thoughts. First of all, I want
to congratulate fountain on there. Rewind every meal apple
and Spotify and everyone was doing look at what you did this
this past year. And fountain Did you get a rewind email? I did it
was pretty read. Wow, it showed me how much I had supported it
show me the top shows. It was shareable. It was just it was
what a one it showed me all my Muslim boosts. It was just a
lovely piece of marketing. Marketing is the thing that we
lacked typically in very much just saying. So that was really
cool. And not everybody has time for this but I just wanted to
say that was delightful. That's the kind of stuff that gets you
people to pay attention to what you're doing two things one,
because I've been picking this up and I think you've been in
some of these threads. There appears to be a GUID duplication
amongst a whole lot of WordPress feeds
Dave Jones: Yes, what exactly is going on around for a long time?
Is
Adam Curry: this because now is this people who are just using
WordPress is it people who are using the power press plug in?
Is it what what exactly happened there? Do you know?
Dave Jones: Yeah, do you notice that there's a win win pie its
power to power precious you owe it is power press okay. Yes,
when power press first released support for the podcast good.
They had a bug in their in their code where it was giving
everybody the same good. Right.
Adam Curry: Okay, that makes that's what we're seeing. And
there's a lot of them. Right? And then
Dave Jones: they they fix the bug. But there's many feeds out
there that haven't upgraded to until a later version of power
press yet. Okay, and so those things are sticking around with
the buggy code where they're duplicating do IDs but
Adam Curry: once people upgrade their power press plug in then
it fixes it
Dave Jones: yes, what if if they if they ever do you know like
Adam Curry: well I can tell hornqvist for sure because he's
one of them. That's where it came from. It's like hey, d h
unplugged has Bo has this this GUID that is in the in the index
a million times I could tell him to upgrade and
Dave Jones: the last time I checked and I don't know if you
have a hard number on it but the last time I checked it was like
something like 300 feeds or something like
Adam Curry: that. I didn't I did not didn't count
Dave Jones: it wasn't like it was just like no it's not a
Adam Curry: horrible no it's not horrible, but it's you know, but
DHL unplugged is a big show and it should have its own good so
I'll make greatest power press that's what I'm saying. Yeah,
I'll tell him to upgrade his power press because that's the
problem. Obviously.
Dave Jones: Yeah, it I mean Todd can jump in there and correct us
if I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm remember this when it
happened because You know, where it first showed up? was in
transcribe.fm?
Adam Curry: Ah, right now I remember that. Yeah, it was you
would ask
Dave Jones: transcribe.fm for a transcript, and it would give
you back a transcript from some other show. You're like what?
Oops. Yeah. And you and then we figured out that it was because
it was because of this issue. I wonder
Adam Curry: if pod press has some pingback that they can that
they can tell their plugin users like, hey, grayzone acid
Dave Jones: as dyno dot fmoS. Dan? Oh, yeah. Sorry. The yatris
didn't know that of him. I mean, he can. Maybe that's commonly we
need Todd to chime in. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Second thing, which I think is a good thing, and
this was a long thread. And this is something that true fans has
implemented. And I think Dolby das RSS blue is is implementing
it is publisher feeds. This and I know we've discussed this. So
let me just give you what I believe publisher feeds, are you
correct me or not? Because it's easier that way, instead of me
interpreting what you just said about rust. Okay, so publisher
feeds is a feed that will be marked with a special medium, or
whatever this is, this is a publisher feed. And it will
mainly have remote item from remote items in there. So that
you can always go to the publisher. And so I may be the
publisher of three different podcasts, I might even be the
publisher of an audio book, etc, etc. And that would all be in my
publisher feed, which makes things for podcasting. There's
all kinds of uses, but there's definitely uses for music. So
the am I do I have that? Right? That's what a publisher feed is.
Dave Jones: Yeah, well, yeah. Had this on the list. So I went
to see I wrote down a couple of notes. Yeah, that the publisher,
they're there. They're valid. Yeah, right there validation
process. Is there's there's a feed for publishers that
contains remote items. Yeah. Yeah. And remote items is
basically a feed of feeds. Yeah,
Adam Curry: exactly. So um, so I could have a feed of all of my
podcasts. And you could subscribe to that feed, and
you'd get every new episode from each podcast that I publish
through that feed if you wanted to correct?
Dave Jones: It? Well. I mean, I think I think you could code it
Adam Curry: that way. Okay. I understood, okay. It's more for
display purposes than for under the hood functionality. But it
could be that way.
Dave Jones: You were the way you described it as sort of like an
OPML I knew
Adam Curry: it was coming out of my mouth. I'm like, Dude, I just
I just gave him an OPML feed now. Okay. But
Dave Jones: I think you could do that, though. I mean, like,
like, you could code it up that way where you could look at it.
And then and then like, sort of parse it. Like, you could go
through to the source that yeah, you could do that. But I don't
know that. That was what their goal was.
Adam Curry: Something to consider perhaps. Yeah,
Dave Jones: yeah, for sure. So well, they had two different
versions. And did you see that it was like, it was like a
publisher that a publisher feed and then meet this, these are
mediums we're talking about? Publisher medium equals
publisher in this feed. So when that when it's a feed of, of
medium publisher, you know, that this is basically just a list
of, of other feeds where this, this publisher owns and then
there was a publisher l was like, A, so you have a feed of
other feeds, and then you have sort of like a playlist of other
feeds, which is more what you're thinking, kind of like along
lines of you're thinking of, oh, okay, oh, really following?
Alright,
Adam Curry: so there's two, or I hadn't figured that one out yet.
Okay. So that's very much like this. That's a playlist because
it's L. So a playlist. Okay. I don't see why you wouldn't just
have one and just parse a different one. I guess it's the
same thing. Just seems like, if you I mean, you'd want it, it
seems to me, like you'd want to have the functionality in both
both cases.
Dave Jones: Well, the sort of the whole idea here, I think
it's I mean, I think it's a good one to is that you have you
can't you know, you're trying to avoid this situation where,
okay, I'm I I'm a feed and I need to and I'm gonna, and I'm
claiming that I'm published by The New York Times as show that
somewhere in my author tag or whatever. And then but but um,
but I'm lying about that I don't, I'm not actually a New
York Times feed, I'm just trying to ride that train or whatever.
Then you have this, all you have this other side, which is the
publisher feed, which, if it lists your feed URL, as part of
its member, as a member, and you list the publisher feed as your
parent, well, then you have sort of this dual LIS loose dual
validation, where it's like I'm saying, I belong to you, and
you're saying that I belong to you. So we can be, we can be
sure that I belong to you.
Adam Curry: Okay, that makes sense.
Dave Jones: Because the only other way to do it is with
something like public, you know, like a public key signing, right
Adam Curry: work. So where does that go in the so if I'm the
publisher of several podcasts, and I have no agenda, and I want
to validate no agenda as being a part of the Adam curry
publishing empire, where where in my no agenda feed? What I put
what, for that validation.
Dave Jones: But my understanding was that there was a, there was
a new tag for publisher. Let me make sure that this right. And
Adam Curry: that, so the tag for publisher of that would have a
feed URL, and that refers back and back and forth. And it has a
validation in the publisher, remote item feed.
Dave Jones: So yes, in the content. Okay, so here's Yeah,
okay, this is this is. Okay, here's how I'm looking at it
right now. There's a couple of a couple of proposed ways to do
it. But this one is using remote items with a medium of
publisher. So the remote Yeah. So the medium of Publisher. Let
me try to this is this gets confusing when you're trying to
just no kidding. describes it. Okay, you're the New York Times.
Let's use you. Okay, so you are you are Adam curry. You have
currently what how many 12345? Podcasts, something
Adam Curry: like that? Yeah.
Dave Jones: No agenda, podcasting tip when no
Adam Curry: learning facts boost the ground scramble.
Dave Jones: Yeah, the five you have five shows. So you would
put you would, you would create a new feed, which would be a
publisher, which would be a feed where it had a podcast medium of
Publisher, then you would have remote items in you would have
five remote items in the channel of that feed. Yep, the one for
each of those shows with referencing, you know, the feed
good, the URL, the medium. So then you in each of your shows
where you have in each of the actual feeds, no agenda,
podcasts and YouTube Topo, Mofaz blah, blah, blah. In each of
those shows, you would put in a podcast remote item, link back
to the publisher feed. And the remote item would be a medium of
Publisher. Okay, that would serve as a link back to the
parent sort of the the publishing to publisher parent
feed. To say I belong to this publisher got
Adam Curry: it? Who is this for? Who gives a rat's ass about this
is what I'm trying to understand.
Dave Jones: Musicians primarily. Okay, good. That makes so yeah,
like you would have. That way you could have as many fields as
you want. But if you if somebody wants to say I want to listen to
all the albums by easily Costello,
Adam Curry: then you go to the publisher, Okay, God, that makes
total sense.
Dave Jones: And you can follow it up the chain too. So if
you're on one of her albums, you have a link by default going to
the publisher feed. So you can sort of step up one level and
Adam Curry: this a what other what other albums does Ainslie
Costello have? Exactly? How does God which could even be a sub
sub publisher of like a bigger entity?
Dave Jones: Yeah,
Adam Curry: for sure. So can it can you include a I guess you
can, um, so she could. She could be Ainsley Costello. She's a
publisher of all these albums, but but she is then a sub of
like phantom power records or whatever. Yeah, so this could
put a publisher tag in that would refer up to her record,
quote, unquote, record label or whatever the entity is, or which
goes all the way up to God ultimately Scott's got sitting
at the top with this big publisher tag and a lot of
remote items.
Dave Jones: And in his guid is is one.
Adam Curry: Exactly. Okay.
Dave Jones: So you can see that as something like what's a good
example of that? Like? Wonder that wondering, aren't they
owned by Amazon? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah. Okay. So you
could have a wondery Publisher list, but then Amazon podcasts
could be like, one level higher. Got it. That had multiple
publisher feeds in that feed? Yeah.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Makes sense. Okay. Well, so what do we need
to do to to make that official?
Dave Jones: Well, I have it on my list. To put it into that we
need to talk about this in general. So I mean, this is
like, for show of 2024. Baby, we have to talk about strategy. For
what for phase seven.
Adam Curry: First, hot namespace talk. 2024 is hotter than 2023.
Dave Jones: The hottest, the hottest new year on record best,
right? According to the IPCC. Yes. So we I mean, like, I don't
know if we have we haven't faced seven. I don't know if we've
talked about it. Well, we haven't faced seven so far. Is
only actually I was actually in the activity pub bridge code
here. And I think I found the unwrap this that killed us.
Adam Curry: Shirts irritates you.
Dave Jones: Let me get back to the namespace repo though.
Because I have a have a plan doc for
Adam Curry: Facebook. He's got a plan. And he's the man with the
plan. The plan? Okay, here it is.
Dave Jones: So what we have on the list right now is to try to
get into Phase seven is authorization. So this this
podcast, verify ownership tag thing. Adding keys and addresses
in the value recipient? And chat, podcast chat
Adam Curry: tag, say again, given them again, sorry, I was
distracted. Podcast,
Dave Jones: the verify ownership. And then adding the
adding the keys and address.
Adam Curry: Right, right.
Dave Jones: To the value received.
Adam Curry: The LV found tag. Yeah,
Dave Jones: that'll be found thing. Then the podcast chat
tag, which is the the, you know, ephemeral version of social
interact. And that's, that's all this in the plan right now. So
we could, we could get So two questions. I mean, we add this,
I can add this right now. I think I should the publisher,
then
Adam Curry: well, we have implementations. That's usually
our rule. No, right. Now, of course, that means Sam Sethi
will be driving the entire namespace because he implements
everything. He wakes up in the morning. I got an idea. Boom,
make it a tag.
Dave Jones: This is what Okay, the rule we typically was the
loose rule was always we need at least one host at least one app
to implement it. Yeah. We have no need to say we made we need
made it expand that to say at least two apps because Sam's
going to implement everything. So we need we may need to Sam's
the default. We either either gimme right, so we needed we
need to we need two apps. We need some we need Sam plus one.
One
Adam Curry: host and two apps or two hosts on two apps.
Dave Jones: One One host and then whoever sent the
Adam Curry: Girls One Cup somehow that just jumped into my
head. I don't know what happened there. Yes. 221 host two s one
host two apps. Okay, that's that sounds fair.
Dave Jones: And I think I mean no well I mean wavelengths
already talking about it. Dobby Das is the one that yeah,
Adam Curry: he's he's running with scissors over there. Yeah.
So
Dave Jones: there's there's your two hosts. There's there's two
hosts out there. Yeah.
Adam Curry: So we just need one more app to implement it
Dave Jones: was I mean, that's Steven Bell's a slam dunk
because he wants this functionality.
Adam Curry: Yeah, cuz he will put it into ln beats and all
that stuff. And curio Kassar by the way, if I can geniza if I
can just say thank you, Steven b He made an integration between M
airless which is the playout software I use and the split
kit. So now, when I end up doing a Bookstagram ball tomorrow, God
willing, when I hear this been well, yeah, tell me about it. So
now I just load up the song into my player. The minute I hit the
play button, the timer set The start time in the split kit. Oh,
well, I no longer have to start and then go over there and then
click, click to make that the active block for the remote
item. It just does it and it's it's like magic. It's beautiful
how he did that is so cool.
Dave Jones: Walking. Let's see, like how did he do that though?
Because I thought I thought in their list was a compiled like a
Windows software. Yes,
Adam Curry: but you have a see what it's called here. Because
errorless is meant for, you know, radio type deals. So you
have a blogging function, and you can add stuff to it. So you
could technically send the song data to your icecast server, but
also as HTTP GET. So you send a GET request to the curio hoster
with some Steven Bell magic sauce. Yes. And on the split
kit, you have the answer you give it a username password pair
in an Error List and that corresponds with your username
password pair in the split kit. And then when you download the
songs through the split kit, the has metadata in there that
identifies what song it is. And so you so that is sent to from
Mr. List to the Steven Bell empire. And then the Steven Bell
Empire goes ah, okay, who's logged in as this? Oh, it's him.
Boom. WebSocket
Dave Jones: this, this is like
Adam Curry: a web hook. Yeah, yeah, web hook. I think what is
Yeah, okay. Beautiful. Was who cares what it is? It works.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. That's rad, though. This is cool that
they have that ability.
Adam Curry: It's, it's yet again, Rube Goldberg machine.
It's so beautiful. I love this stuff. I love it so much.
Dave Jones: Okay, so I just added I just added publisher
phase to phase seven to the plan list to the
Adam Curry: plan. But we still need a second app. Well, we have
the we have we have Stephen Bell, of course. Beautiful. And
Dave Jones: we don't have we don't have explicit
confirmation. But
Adam Curry: you feel let me see smiles. You feel me?
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's there. He's just slammed on. Added
face. Okay. All right. We got that covered.
Adam Curry: I have something to discuss. Yeah. What's your
behavior? Dave Jones? No. It's like one of those honey, we have
to talk. But.
Dave Jones: But no, the worst is worse than that. When this like,
Hey, can we talk? Oh, no, but not right. But not right. Later.
Can
Adam Curry: we? Can we have a chat later? Yeah. It's the
worst. I had two of those. I'm divorced twice. Alright, here we
go. So I'm listening to the new media show. I didn't pull clips.
And he was really quite beautiful, because I finally
understood not only how messed up but how the podcast
advertising system works. And I've always wondered because I
thought everybody was kind of on this IAB standard. And didn't
really matter where you host that stuff. But it does. It sure
does. And the IAB standard has some minimums, which, whatever
it is, they are able to determine unique download slash
play, like someone hit the play button. For for a minute of
audio, that's their minimum for a minute of audio. And they can
kind of determine uniqueness by setting time windows. I think
it's if unless you see that that identifier come back within two
hours, is considered the same. The person and everybody has
different implementations of this IAB standard. And so it's
not uniform at all. And what's interesting is that the ad
buyers, they have their own knowledge, they have their own
spreadsheets and they know exactly, okay, well, those guys,
they over count, so we discount them here. This, you know, we
feel that and I probably think that blueberry is probably one
of the best at the stats because Todd has invested by his own
admission of a lot of time and resources and years and he has a
lot of external sources for you know, bots and bullcrap and all
kinds of gaming, etc. So, when people get when, when there's an
ad buy and the podcast is on blueberry. The advertisers will
probably give the the expected CPM because they know that
Todd's numbers are pretty good. weight
Dave Jones: by his he said multiple times that he throws
out tons of data like yes, he over he overcorrect. Yes.
Purpose. Yes.
Adam Curry: So when the iOS 17, apocalypse happened, his numbers
didn't really go down because he has formulas and secret sauce as
he calls it, which I have no desire to taste. Yes,
Dave Jones: yourselves to yourself.
Adam Curry: He has secret sauce, that he says that he has, that
certain apps have certain behavior that he's bench tested,
you know, over the years, and so he he can get pretty close to
like 70% or 75% of the actual listens, have a percentage of
the podcast apps or the person that the people who are
listening to that podcast, which is pretty good. And I'm sure
that it varies. And I'm sure that you know, when when, when
there's an upgrade to some player, I'm sure he has to go in
and everyone has to scramble around and figure out does
something change, etc. But it's all the bottom line is, it's all
bull crap. All of it is all ultimately just measuring one
minute of download, which of course gives the advertiser
really nothing. And, you know, the industry has moved from
calling it downloads to plays. Okay, so on the hit play, but
they really don't know if someone listened at all. I mean,
nobody absolutely knows if people are listening, or how far
they've listened into the podcast, or if they listened far
enough to hear the ads. I mean, that's, that's clear. And, and
so ultimately, when you pop all the way back up the stack, the
advertisers themselves who go through the media, or the agency
to the media buyer, ultimately down to either the podcast
network, or whoever's doing the buys. And so they they wind up a
bet, blueberry, and blueberry says, Okay, here's how our stats
work. This is we're going to give you in the results. And
there's a reckoning after the fact and that reckoning is,
okay, we agreed on for your network, we do $20 CPM, so $20
per 1000 plays. But if we did a buy and also include something
that's on Libsyn, I have no idea. So I'm just using Lipson
as an example. They may say, Well, we only give you $15 CPM,
because we know that your numbers are shit. And so yeah,
pretty much and they may not. And they may not communicate
that for between blueberry and Lipson. So this really works
more by podcast host, or in a case of like megaphone, let's
just call them the host. So and there's it's very complicated.
There's a lot of overheads, a lot of log file processing.
Seems like millions and millions have been invested in that. But
there's no, Nielsen, there is no Nielsen for podcast statistics.
I thought there was I thought that what AIB was, but it's not
true. And but there's an adjustment that that media
buyers who of course, are very smart. They know all right,
those guys over count those guys simply to raise pretty
reasonable I don't know what that spreadsheet looks like,
doesn't matter. But nobody really knows play numbers. And
so they had this long conversation, Rob seemed kind of
shocked by this. Rob seemed shocked that Todd was admitting
that it's crap. But Todd doesn't care. Because all the people who
are on his on his infrastructure, they get good
numbers and advertisers feel, or media buyers feel confident that
those numbers are good. Now, ultimately, the advertiser,
they'll look at their return on investment, which is the typical
half of my advertising money is working. I don't know which half
because they really don't. All they know is they put X amount
in and then sales went up. That's how it's supposed to work
now, where that comes from, that comes into analysis. And it
could be you know, did it come from Tiktok, but they may know
some things. So all of this is very, very, very fuzzy. And then
they get into this big conversation about nobody has
player stats, nobody has player stats yet. Well, actually,
Spotify does, but Spotify. Who knows what they're doing. And I
just want to say up front, I love value for value. I think it
is the way forward in general, for all media for all media.
It's a fair way to do it. Only the stuff that is really
outstanding product and can build a community because we're
not in the land of one way television. We're not in the
land of one way radio is interactive. You only get people
to support you with time, talent and treasure which by the way
Time, and talent is very valuable. You know, there are
people who are do things for my shows that would I could not
afford, no matter how much money I made on the podcast. So it's,
it's, it's also very valuable. I love value for value that's in
my heart. I am not anti marketing, I'm just not, you
can't be the world, the economy runs on marketing. What I'm
against is that the podcast industrial complex, completely
ignores, in fact, is very rude towards the audience, and
ignores the relationship that can and should exist between
between the podcaster and the audience. That relationship is
everything. And what I mean by that is if I say, Please boost
us people boost us, if I say, Please, use this app, a portion
of the audience goes to use that app, I do that every single no
agenda show you and if you go look at op three for no agenda
show, you'll see that pod verse is very high. Up Now I've
started talking about podcast guru. And so it works. And this
is the this is the relationship. If I say go buy this product. If
I if I was honest, and I'm authentic, I think people go buy
that product. Yeah. So the way that has worked out with
advertising, I'm just gonna say marketing, because it's more
fair to say marketing than advertising. But he's really, I
know, this sucks. I'm gonna throw these ads in your face,
but you're supporting us. That's not a way to go. This very
negative, very negative relationship. And even if even
the podcasters say it, they forget the stupid, they forget
to even say that. Now there's a lot of podcasts say, hey, you
know, I gotta I got advertisers, please visit their websites. I'm
gonna read off their names. Now. Whatever it is. It's irritating,
but it feels better. But the one thing that nobody has, is those
player stats except we do.
Dave Jones: And who we we are against index?
Adam Curry: Well, let me start about me first. I have extremely
valuable play statistics. Of all my podcasts, in fact, DeVore I
can I use it regularly? Because when people are streaming
Satoshis per minute, is it the whole audience? No. Is it a
percentage of the audience? Yes. Can I make a reasonable
assumption? So for example, I look at it, I never look at
downloads. I mean, once in a while, I look at just what what
does op three say for, you know, the overall monthly unique users
or audience whatever it is, it's it's interesting doesn't Matt
doesn't pay my rent. And I'll go look at the I'll go into
contracts dot app, because I have a split for from no agenda
into Alby. And then I can look at my per show, I can look at a
range of shows and say where people dropping off. And it's
very, and we've noticed that it doesn't matter. If we we've
moved art, our donation segment to the end of the show. Now, for
a while though, it was for a couple of reasons. One, they
were getting pretty long. And we would feel rushed, if we did it
midway the show, like and then we start getting irritated by
longer notes, etc. And we moved it to the back. And and so the
two things you look at is one, did we get a drop off in
revenue? No. But did we get a drop off on people listening?
No. Interestingly, people would come back. And that, of course,
is people who have supported the show. And so we use these, and
this per minute, and you can really see it'd be every show
people drop off over time. That's normal. But it's very,
very valuable for how we how I run my, my podcasts to know what
people are doing. And I'm, and I'm sitting there realizing
like, holy crap, this is exactly the data that marketers want to
see. They want to know, where people listening when my ad
played. Right. So interestingly enough, yes, podcasts index does
have that data. Because what most of it, most of the apps get
the value block from the index from our API. We hand off and
the deal is you're using our API. So we want 1%. So every
payment, we actually have that data for every single podcast
that uses the value for value, streaming, Satoshi system. Now,
right, I don't want to become
Dave Jones: I will say that, let me just throw that in that. This
is per it's totally anonymized data as well.
Adam Curry: This is very this is Key, the only thing we have is a
username, which often is anonymous podcast guru user or
user 35924. Lots of times people put their their aliases in
Sometimes people put their actual name in. But it is, in
this effect anonymous, that we can't actually track much other
than you sent this. If you sent a message, here's what the
message was, here's what podcast it was from. And now with value
time splits, we often know at what point in the in the know we
always we know what point in the podcast what, what minutes, etc,
it was sent.
Dave Jones: There's no IP addresses, there's
Adam Curry: no nothing, none of that. There's no There's no now
if I'm just before I continue with my with my rant here, if
I'm not mistaken, although it hasn't been implemented, there
is a way for these value payments to be sent that the
podcaster could hit reply and send a payment back with a
message. Am I correct? Yes. But almost no one is doing that, or
what are we missing for that piece to work?
Dave Jones: Well, I don't know how many apps do it currently I
know that we have I know that. I know that curio caster does and
will also Steven bass apps, we can look in the we can we can
look in the boost in the donation segment. And we can see
because in with any any booths that comes in, where we where we
read it in the in the segment, it also has some debugging
information that shows what all is in the TLV record. And one of
the things that's in the to V that would show up is and I
noticed them as I'm reading them is if it has a reply to address
and if it has the reply to case and address then you can you can
boost back.
Adam Curry: Yes, I see. Okay, so curio caster has reply, address,
custom key custom value, etc. Okay, and let me see fountain
probably doesn't it's probably only curio caster, the doing
okay, so that. So that's possible. Imagine now, we're not
going to become a statistics provider for anybody. We're not
interested in that. But I can imagine a system, remember the
most important part that everyone's overlooking in the
podcast industrial complex, and I'm trying to offer a solution
at the same time and onboarding into the value for value system.
If, if a podcaster has a tag they can put into their feed,
which would be part of a remote item. But I will just put it
this way. It would serve as a toggle feed in the app, which
means I listened to add I'm gonna say insertions just to
make it simple. There's other ways of doing it. But to toggle
add insertions on or off. If I if I toggle it on, that means
I'm going to get the inserted ad. And at the minute that ad
plays. It's a value time split, which fires off a payment to a
wallet that the advertiser media agency, whoever's responsible
for the tracking can see. Which then immediately fires off a
Return Payment. Thank you for listening to our ad.
Dave Jones: A Whitney, so Okay, so So you're basically you're
okay, you say you're, you're sending, let's just say one set,
you're sending one set to the advertiser wallet, who then
Adam Curry: they send you five set. So here's from the high
level, you can support us with value for value. Or if you
toggle the switch, we're going to work you can in the
onboarding part, you can go pretty far down the road, like,
we'll give you a wallet automatically will give you a
wallet with 1000. SAS has a lot of things you can do. The point
is to onboard people simply effectively and easily. If you
toggle ads on, then the minute you listen to an ad, it will
fire off a payment, if you will actually it will pay you for
listening to that ad, not a lot. But when I look at the stats
that we have, of course of all the apps fountain is is miles
ahead and transaction volume not in payment volume necessarily,
but in transaction volume. And I believe that's because the
onboarding that they do with listen to any old podcast, and
we'll pay you a Satoshi per minute, which is not every
single day etc. Because they have to manage that too. But But
I think that onboarding has been extremely successful. So I just
want to onboard people And ultimately, the cost of sending
one sat back, if you do a loop or five SATs doesn't matter has
to come out of the CPM. But I believe that that CPM will
become more valuable. If it's wrapped up in actual play stats
where the advertiser has confirmation that a person
listen to that ad. And you don't even have it will only track the
remote item, it won't track. You know, the rest of your listening
habits. Of course, we could do that. And there's lots of other
things we could do. But all I'm trying to say here is we have a
universe of apps that return player information that people
are already doing. Let's make it official, add the Add tag. So
would surface it. Yeah, I'll listen to your ad. If if it's
off, no insertion, how about that I'm just it's a crazy
thought it was off no insertion that people are doing value for
value. If it's on, you get an insertion, a payment fires off,
you'll probably have maybe if we're really lucky, maybe 1% of
all listens across the board. But just like Todd has some
secret sauce, you could add this in. I mean, I think that would
make the I want to destroy all other distribution systems and
networks, okay, I want to destroy them. The way we destroy
them is by making very accountable advertising work.
And it doesn't take away from value for value. But in fact, it
onboards people to value for value gives podcasters an extra
revenue stream, if they don't have any ads or don't want ads,
it can fund wallets, it can do a lot of things. I have no idea
how to take this further other than it would probably be a
wallet provider who would have to create this system. But
everybody can when everybody's incentivized, especially if the
podcaster communicates to their audience.
Dave Jones: of okay, I thought I mean, I guess the first thing
that pops out is I say that I listened to your ad, which sends
a set to you and I get five sets back that. I mean, that's just
how you can avoid the the amount of the massive click for all to
happens with that.
Adam Curry: I mean, there's all kinds of things that I'm you
know what I bet you Oscar has already figured out a lot of the
click fraud stuff, of course, but we have click fraud
everywhere. We already have it. So that will that could be we
Dave Jones: don't but we don't have click fraud. Well, this,
this is a direct Well, if you're an advertiser, and you have
downloads, you can say. You can say x percentage of these
downloads are fake. I'm not paying for this, which
Adam Curry: is this, which is the stuff that Todd already
does. He already knows this. Right.
Dave Jones: But then, but if you're but if it's a direct
transaction, then you can't
Adam Curry: get that back. Okay. Well, let's take let's take that
part out. Okay, whatever the incentive is, we have a system
that nobody has, we have a minute by minute payment system
that can send this information completely anonymous. You know,
don't send something back right away, you know, stored up
whatever. Yeah, I mean, there's a million ways to do the incent
incentivized maybe you don't have to do that. Click this on
me oh, by the way, you know, you get it you get a free podcast
wallet, which you can do something with I mean, there's,
there's a lot of different with, maybe I should just retract the
incentive. Right now. There are 15 apps 15, maybe 15 apps that
have play statistics by minute that no one is even thinking
about as being useful for advertising. Statistical uses.
Dave Jones: Okay, so the setting aside the incentive thing for a
second the other thing that's that popped out was so I'm full
I'm putting on my full cynic hat here. You're trying to play you
Adam Curry: have to you have to and
Dave Jones: in the cynic in me says, do the advertisers
themselves even want accurate numbers? Ah, well,
Adam Curry: this popped up for me too. Nobody may actually want
to have these numbers which would be which would be handy
too, because then everything falls apart. And the only real
way to measure stuff is direct response. was like cold bond
genome. I mean, that's basically the ultimate. But right now,
Dave Jones: if you're an ad buyer for Nike, and you buy
that, and you say, Okay, I'm going to spend $700,000, across
these audio, mediums, and I'm going to get to 250,002, that is
going to be in the pot in podcasts. And look at all these
downloads, we got it for 250,000, or for $200,000, we
got, you know, we get 2 million downloads, like if, if that
actually translates into 300,000, then you as the ad
buyer may not want your boss to see the accurate number, you may
want to, you may want the inflated number. Bottom
Adam Curry: line, you're absolutely right, people may not
want to actually know. But what I find interesting, and maybe
this is something for Spurlock to do, what I find interesting
is that I don't need an agency or anybody else or a podcast
host to tell me the listening behavior of my audience, I can
look at it myself. The I can talk directly to an agency or an
ad buyer and say, well, of my downloads on Obama unique
audience on op three, which is okay, no agenda 900,000 unique
per month, whatever it means, I don't know what it means. But
it's a number. And I can say of that audience, I have 3%, it may
be higher. I have 3% that stream me SATs every single minute. So
I can say I have a reasonable expectation that this is the
behavior of the other 97%. The higher that number, the better
it is, of course. I mean, this is very powerful stuff that no
one's thinking of. And they're all running around doing
formulas and beating each other over the head and back rooms at
at NAB to come up with some formula that ultimately only
measures one minute of download every two hours.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Does it feel like nuts? I think you're on to
Sunday. I mean, it may there's something there. It's, there's a
way to there's get, you know, there's a way to harness this
is. Okay, so back to basics for a second. I mean, what you're
talking about is, is lightning as a as a perfectly anonymized
way to see what's happening with your show? Yes. And
Adam Curry: listening minutes. Let's put it that way how far
someone listens in. Okay. But let's forget everything I said
before, was probably a better is probably a bad way to start it
off. How about this? If I send a split to OP three? I want open
by the way. The apps not doing anything creepy? No, what no app
wants to do creepy tracking? No, no one wants to be creepy. But
But I have my numbers and whether I'm looking at download
statistics. And oh, I have five people in Lithuania. I've
technically am creepily trying to figure out where people are
coming from and how many downloads I'm getting, etc. So
it's not like this is out of the ordinary. Now I have one extra
piece of data. If I were to give op three a split, I would I
would personally love to have that tape pulled up into the
stats. So I can get based upon pure averages. I mean, it's it's
just it's numbers. It's averages of how many? What percentage of
that 900,000 On no agenda is streaming SATs per minute. You
know, wrap that up and tell me Well, it seems like you probably
have this many minutes listen to of each podcast. And this is
your average drop off. And here's kind of what it is after
five minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour, etc. This is
valuable data. All I'm saying is that if you're doing value for
value, do value for value. But if you want to use the same
mechanism to get player stats, there's ways that that can be
packaged and manage and incentivize for everybody. Does
that make sense? Yeah, because it's, it's like the red tag
that, you know, that failed, like, oh, that players will send
back this little tag and every No, no one did that. But we have
15 apps, you know, and podcasters Hey, please use these
apps. You helped me with my advertisers this there's so many
things that podcasters aren't doing to promote their own
welfare. Right. This is a this is an it could be done with as I
said with just a value time split, you know, that fires it
off only when you listen to the ad. All these things can be
Done. Give me a hey, you know, I mean, all I'm seeing is the
exact thing that Todd and Rob are bitching about that no one
has we have across 15 apps. And actually, the index has a whole
range, that we're not going to use that. But but that's the
idea you could have, you could have a separate entity that is
the nonprofit, these the podcasts, that nonprofit, who
gets a 1% of everything, and does compile that I mean, which
would be opt in is there's so many things that can be done.
The point is, the information is there, the mechanism is there.
So whereas if you have a podcast where you don't feel like doing
value for value, you can use the same mechanism. Without anyone
taking a penny out of their pocket, you can use the
mechanism to get the statistics that you want.
Dave Jones: Again, get I guess I just see this as the as
envisioned at the moment in my head. This seems very binary.
Like, like it's is either an all or nothing thing. You go in,
you're either you're either value for value at that point,
and then there's no way to get somebody to listen to the ads
without incentivizing. Oh, so you do you
Adam Curry: listen to the Linux unplugged? Do you listen to
Jupiter broadcasting? Do you screen them set?
Unknown: Yes.
Adam Curry: Do they have marketing? Yes. So that's not
true what you just said.
Dave Jones: But that is that is a function of so that is that's
if you turn on was like, Well, let me clarify the, you
mentioned sort of like enabling this thing as a feature.
Adam Curry: Just one way that as I said, this is just one way of
doing this. I mean, right now, if I were Jupiter broadcasting,
I would go to Linode. And I would say, Hey, here's the
percentage of people who are streaming SATs, and who were
doing that while listening to your ad. And I would say it's,
uh, you know, 0.1% of our audience, but this gives you an
idea. This, you can extrapolate that. And by the way, you don't
mind I know you don't because you love those guys.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. That's why Listen, yeah. To the ads and
stream sets through the air. Exactly,
Adam Curry: exactly. This is my point. It's the relationship
between the podcaster. And the audience that makes it work. Not
that not everything else sucks. So
Dave Jones: you're saying if the podcaster explains this, and
says, Look, if you're using a value for value app, here, the
the advertisers can tell if your Listen, which helps us. Of
course, okay, that's, of course, this is so much layout, I
appreciate that angle on it, because
Adam Curry: it's still value for value, the hope there's no way
our audience is not big enough, you're not boosting enough for
me to do this full time. We have Linode as a sponsor, we'd love
to tell them, you know that people are listening. If you
don't, if you don't boost us 10,000 SATs turn on five sets of
minutes, so we can track it and tell them and show them what
they're getting for their money. Its value for value.
Dave Jones: Yeah. appreciate the fact that that's like a
conversation in a relationship between the podcaster and the
audience. That's where I started this sort of technological
technical solution that trust, like, steal it to like, work its
way around that relationship. That's
Adam Curry: why That's why I started I said, What's ignored
in the whole podcasting industrial complex? is the
relationship between the podcaster and the audience. And
the podcasters. They forget that too. And then it just becomes
magic did yeah. Well, then it but then it becomes when we just
shove this crap in your face, I'm sorry. It's the only way we
can do it. Where you can actually turn it into an
extremely positive. And then as it goes along, I think that the
the Linux unplugged guys, they could say, you know, if you
don't want to hear the ad, and you want to boost us, or you
want to stream a higher amount of stat sets instead, here's a
toggle, and you want here the ad and you I mean, you can do it
that way. But it's always the relationship between the, the,
I'm going to use the word I hate a creator, and the audience that
is forgotten. That's what's forgotten. And that's, that's
where they went wrong. And again, I want nothing more if I
if you really woke me up in the middle, if so, would you really
want I would want the podcast ecosystem to crush every other
distribution mechanism that is out there. Tall networks, every
single one of them, crush them make them irrelevant because
they are Our system is better.
Dave Jones: I agree. Yeah. And I think I think that is, you know,
everybody's doing their prediction shows and stuff like
that this week, or in last week. And this. There, there's this
weird dichotomy between some people are saying, well, you
know, think 2024 is not going to get a whole lot better than
2023. And then people on the ad side are like, well, you know,
everything's going up. And yeah, I think in order to get sort of
your put your ear to the to the train track, and hear what's
coming down the road. So I brought clips,
Adam Curry: can I add one thing before you go to the clips?
Yeah, I would love Linux unplugged, if they put a value
time split into their Linode read, I will boost your
advertiser and tell them I liked their product. Or if I don't
like their product, I will boost and said, I heard this ad. I'm
interested, or I liked it, or I liked the way it was done. Or I
like your product. I'd like your service. I'm already I'm already
a user or man, you know, whatever it is, I will give
feedback to your advertiser.
Dave Jones: One thing we haven't seen on that front is, like you
said, boosting directly to the advertiser basically a value
split for the ad. Yes,
Adam Curry: yes. Exactly. Put it to a devalue time split in, give
the advertiser A wallet, tell you tell your audience what
you're doing. Hey, if you if you're a podcast, who put it
right now? boost the ad, send them a message can be one
Satoshi I don't care. Send them a message.
Dave Jones: That would be interesting. If you said, if you
say okay, I'm going to I'm going to prove to you my numbers. In
this way, I'm going to set up a context account for you
beautiful, exactly, we're gonna see this. Yeah. And
Adam Curry: you know what advertising equals negative
feedback. They, they, they appreciate that, too. That's
free. And you're just save yourself $50,000 on a marketing
firm that does that does polling. And
Dave Jones: at the end of the, at the end of the campaign, then
you just pay you just if you just pay me back? The the
amount, like just add that back in as a bonus. What like the
agreed amount, and then you add in whatever, whatever sets you
receive, you give me a cut of that back? What and that's
whatever it
Adam Curry: is, you send it back to the people who sent you the
message,
Dave Jones: we split it or whatever. There's a million ways
to do it. Yeah. That's
Adam Curry: all I wanted to present is that I am not I
believe that advertising is, is censorship, because you can't
talk about a competing product that That by itself is going to
be censorship. I believe it's dangerous, in many cases,
because you, you can get demonetized. But I want to be
clear, I'm not anti marketing, the world exists on marketing.
We can't live without product being marketed to us. But we
can, this is what we talked about in 1989, we are saying oh,
it's going to change is going to change, or it'll be updated and
you'll pay me for my time. No one's done it. We have it we
have all the pieces in place to do that. And I just wanted to
put that out there that people can think of it as a possible
way and the Jupiter broadcasting guys, I would love to see them
experiment with this. The I think their audience is perfect
for it. I'll participate you'll participate. I streamed SATs I
boost them. I listened to the Linode it's interesting to me.
It's something I want to hear if I didn't want to hear it. I'd
like to I'd like to say hey, I hate this ad. Can I turn it off?
Whatever. Now makes it a level you can turn it off if you boost
the 1000s that there's all kinds of it's programmable money
people think a little bit further than what it is.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I think I think we haven't seen the sort
of experimentation now with this stuff where you could sit down
for an afternoon and think of four or five different ways you
could do some crazy stuff with with this when it when it comes
to like splits that activates services. Like with friends I
mean, just you get spit ball or something like this like you you
donate you hit a certain threshold of you hit a certain
you know you hit a certain threshold of ads and screaming
stats. I love this thinking for last episode that means next
episode you don't get you don't hear any ads. Yeah, they just
stuff like, you know, like all kinds of crazy stuff that you
could do. Yeah, I think we have a really we Here's haven't
really seen anybody go, go, go kind of nutty, and start doing
that stuff. And
Adam Curry: just to finish, I really feel there's something
here this hybrid, it's not creepy, because we're already
doing it. It's not creepy, because I'm already using it.
It's not creepy, because I can't attribute you as a person to the
contacts graph that I'm viewing. I mean, if I go into the data
individually, I guess I could, and you know, I can know, an
alias. But that's really all I know. I can't necessarily yeah,
Dave Jones: that's, that's self that's opt in, though, I mean,
because you've completely you have to get to it. I mean, if I
get if I just say that, if I put in my, in my user name, and the
T O V. Anonymous, is you're not getting any information about me
at all. There's nothing you can't, you can't extract
anything out of that payment that that identifies me, you
just can't know. So there's my if I choose to put Dave Jones in
the username field of the TLV I'm choosing to let you know
that that's me. That's not you can't get it any other way
without me allowing it to happen. And so in like the and
then and then that's all you get. So if some if four other
people also say their name is Dave Jones,
Adam Curry: then you have for Dave Jones.
Dave Jones: Name I can't tell which one's me and which one's
somebody else. It's just it is perfectly anonymous
Adam Curry: now and I believe much more in host read ads than
anything else. Because it's like bridesmaid magazine. I don't
think you should be creating a podcast just to advertise bridal
services and products. Button. Linux unplugged is makes so much
sense for I'm interested in the products they that advertised
there. And the either it's a canned or whatever, but it's not
it's not an inserted ad that goes you know, Toyota. I'm not
interested, that's not going to interest me. And I can't help
that. I can't even think that far ahead. Let's put it that
way. But to hear people struggling with something that
already exists, I want to bridge I want to help bridge that gap.
Because it's there. I am anti tracking, I am pro privacy. Anti
creepy. But if we just remember that the podcasts are has an
intimate relationship with the audience. You can figure out per
audience what is possible. You just can. It's not a problem.
But that is what is overlooked. And it's and it's overlooked in
reports and graphs and charts and Rancors and leaderboards.
It's all insulting because you you bring people and podcasters
down to a frickin percentage. Whereas here is something that
is human ebb you can work with both parties to make something
do I expect the podcast industrial complex to take this
and run with it? No. But at least I said as possible. And
now let's go back to value for value.
Dave Jones: But the reason I the reason I headed it I have veered
into clips. Because I think this No no. Because this this is
actually pretty. It's actually pretty apropos mainly so I was
listening to this is wrong roundabout way of the way of how
I got to this podcast. This there's this you know, I told
you I've I've gone down the Gilmore Girls train. Now and now
I'm listening to the Gilmore Girls podcast. But but it's this
specific one by by the guy that played Luke on the show. And I
don't remember how I think I think I found when I was
originally searching for it, uh, found a another one called
Gilmore Guys. Hey, no witch. And so this is like, this was this
was by nobody related to the show. I mean, this is just like
two days. Scott Patterson you're talking about? Yes, Scott
Patterson does the I am all in podcast, which is the one I
subscribe to. But this other show was by people who are not
who were not actors on the show. Just it's like Egina just fans.
And I remember seeing that show. So I went back
Adam Curry: I been Pfeiffer I binge Gilmore Girls are in
COVID. So it's you know what a real man admits that. He watched
Gilmore Girls.
Dave Jones: I have no shame. None. There's no shame. But so
it's The this I ended up listening to this other podcast,
because now I'm just you know, I'm just curious at what, three
minutes in and I'm out. I'm like that cannot tolerate this at
all. It's so it's just not my for No, I'm not going to
criticize them but it is just absolutely not my thing. I can't
I can't handle it. So I was out on that but somehow I ended up
through the magic of of the index or something with this
other show by one of the hosts of that show. Is this this is a
show called good Christian fun. Yeah. Funny name for show. So
I'm like, Oh, I gotta I gotta it was supposed to be like a, a
show about Christian pop culture. And I'm like, oh,
that's that sounds like entertaining. So listen to it.
And I was actually sort of the my entry point to this show was
an episode. This was the most recent episode, which ended up
being a bad entry point for me. Because they're, they start
talking about at the very beginning, how their, their
podcast network called ahead. GM is the name of this podcast
network. Their Podcast Network is now trying a new strategy.
Going going forward on how to figure out new shows.
Adam Curry: And what do you mean figure out new shows? What do
you mean, what new shows to produce? Yeah,
Dave Jones: yeah. So they like so what do we you know, this is
the new this is the new world we live in where? Where podcasting
isn't, is not a is not the Fairhead you know, fair haired
Adam Curry: child knows the ugly, ugly. redheaded stepchild
was what it is. All right. Sorry. redheads.
Dave Jones: Is the soulless redheads. Yes. And this so they
so they have a new strategy, which he will describe.
Unknown: This week, we have a special treat for our listeners.
Oh, right. Yes, this this is kind of crazy. But it's huge.
It's an honor. And the head game network is a big family. In
light of that they've launched this new pilot program that
they're they're trying out. And it's really weird how they're
rolling it out and executing it. But when we heard the talent
involved, we thought, yeah, let's participate. Yeah, let's
give this agreement I had no choice. So what they're doing
now is they're they're developing, you know, about a
dozen or so pilots. And what they're doing is instead of
creating a feed for the show's themselves, they're gonna put
them on the feeds of all the other podcasts on had gone, you
know, when it makes sense. And it may it certainly made sense.
In this case, they're actually developing a podcast with two
people very close to our heart, Michael W. Smith and Ami MF
grant. They're finally doing their to friends podcast. So
what they want to do had gum you know, times being what they are
in the pockets industry. They don't want to commit to the
whole 52 episode order for a year. So what they're gonna do
is they're gonna put out the pilot episode of all these new
shows.
Adam Curry: I'm not sure I understood exactly what they're
doing.
Dave Jones: Okay, so that's yeah, it's a little hard to
follow but what this what they're doing his feed drops,
Adam Curry: right. So they're putting the episode in every
single feed on their network. So
Dave Jones: yes, selective feed, so they're gonna do he was
saying he was saying that he clarifies it and a little,
clarifies a little bit more in in the next clip, but what
they're essentially doing is they're, instead of doing any
commitments, they're going to do like one pilot episode, and then
throw that into a whole bunch of already highly subscribed feeds
and see whether or not they get good feedback. And if they do
then they might order more
Adam Curry: webisodes. Wow, that sounds like a bad idea to me.
This
Dave Jones: sounds like a terrible idea. I mean, feed
drops are nothing new. But I can tell you they're almost
universally hated it
Adam Curry: From experience I can tell you from way back
people don't like it. Like we'll get that out of my feed. I'll
subscribe to the feed myself Hey. And
Dave Jones: like this is a perfect example because I was
willing to give this show a shot I want I tuned in to hear this
specific show. And I did not get this show because this show this
whole intro that I'm that I'm clipping here. This was all lead
into the feed drop that there were about two played this other
episode. So I subscribed to a show that I now did not get.
What I got was some new pilot episode for a potentially new
show from with Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant. Amy Grant, a
singer Amy Grant singer and Michael W. Smith, a Christian
singer. Yeah. Oh, those two them talking to each other. I'm like,
I'm already annoyed before I even hear you know what I mean?
Yeah, of course, it ended up being a decent show. I'm already
you're hitting me. I'm annoyed from the beginning. And so like
the net in the next clip, they talk about this overall
strategy. And it's basically it's the same strategy as it was
the last five years. But of celebrities, but this time
without the commitment. Michael
Unknown: W. Smith and Amy Grant are doing one. You know, there's
other people doing podcasts pilots that I'm forgetting right
now. I think I think there's, there's like scrubs rewatch
podcasts that they're doing, but it's just the Todd and he's
Sarah choc. Yeah. And it's kind of competing with fake doctors,
real friends. That's one of them. There's one Kim controls
doing where she just washes Sex in the City. And she talks about
how much she hates everything.
Okay, negative show.
Yeah. So it's a lot of celebrity stuff that that's been cooked up
ahead and GM.
Adam Curry: Oh, man, this is a prime example of how you cannot
monetize the network. So
Dave Jones: this is, you know, I don't, I'm not I'm not being
super negative on. As far as like, I'm not saying this. I'm
not gonna criticize anybody on this. But what I'm just it was
interesting from the standpoint of this, it's sort of a
confirmation that there's really nothing new here. Like, there's
the podcast industrial complex. So the you know, they're out of
ideas. They really are there rehashing. Now, now they're
rehashing other, this is a real, this is another podcast with
somebody rewatching, a television show and discussing
the episodes that's going head to head with an already popular
show of this doing the exact same thing with the exact same
show. And they're so unsure about the success of the shows
that they, they won't even commit to more than one episode.
And they're going to feed drop it to get the numbers up. I
mean, like, Oh, my God, this is just not. What bothers me here
is that this is not good. No, this is really not a good. This
is what I'm saying. If you put your ear down to the train
tracks on this thing. I see hard times ahead. I mean, it can it
kind of in him, and then you so you have a feed drop already.
Where this is, you're already annoyed that you're not going to
hear the show you were expecting to hear. And then I detect in
this last clip, I detected that they're sort of embarrassed by
the quality of the episode they're about, they're about to
feed drop, because they are not selling it at all,
Unknown: in what you're gonna hear in this pilot episode,
which is not too long, because you know, they're just testing
the waters and filling things out. And and you can tell like,
they've been friends for a long time, but they're maybe they
don't have the stamina. Yeah, their chemistry is kind of a
little wonky as they kind of figure out what they're doing,
you might hear. So, and for me, it was interesting listening to
Amy, because she would just kind of like, you could tell at some
point she her attention wandered. And she would kind of
check her phone a little bit while somebody was talking about
something that was really important to them. But you'll
listen for yourself. I don't want to cloud. Yeah,
Adam Curry: this reminds me so much of pod show. When because
we tried to run it like a traditional network. This is
where I came up with the whole term. You can't monetize the
network. We tried to do it with promo codes. And what wound up
happening is everybody had their code and they were making good
money because they were basically becoming SEO experts
with their codes. People weren't getting the codes from the
shows. Now they were getting them by going to google
someone's whoa, I'm gonna I'm at checkout here I need to code
right now. I'm gonna I'm gonna buy some SEO whatever. That was
never an advertiser. I'm gonna buy something. And I need to
code so you you go to Google, you search the code, whoever's
code pops up at the top they got the credit it was basically a
scam. And, and it's just it doesn't. It doesn't work well.
Dave Jones: And then this is podcast winter. This is the
beginning of the podcast winter.
Adam Curry: Yes, it is the podcast winter. It is its direct
response is very difficult in this in this manner because you
just as I said, I've been, I've seen it over and over and over
again. Where now the the code is in a YouTube does it to me the
code is in the YouTube description. It's they they
people become SEO experts at codes. That's real. It's not
really coming from the podcast. Whereas I think Linode probably
Jupiter probably use codes. But I'm listening to it because I'm
interested in how they sell it. I'm interested in what they're
selling, there's a different message often there's like, no
blue node has this we have something melts. And and I
always chuckle when they say it's now a part of aka Miam.
Like, yeah.
Dave Jones: I know, people will say that, you know, oh, feed
drops had been done for I get that that's not that's not the
point. Understand feed drops have always been been happening.
The thing that startles me a little bit, is that what this is
this thing here is a large net podcast network that has is
saying our new strategy is basically to do is to only do
one pilot episode, and then feed drop it everywhere, that that
seems to be the policy going forward. Because that, that it
tells me that the money is so tight, that they really is no
margin for error. The there's certain, there's certain there's
certain certain things that that are that people do learn, excuse
me, that companies do that are sort of standard and you'll see
them happen every now and then. Things you know, certain types
of you know, like, I mean, certain types of sales loss
leaders these things, I mean, these are just normal part of
doing business you do that. But then there's a different than
then something will happen where you see a company go all in and
just be in like completely lost leader half of their, you know,
Adam Curry: is desperation the next step for them as they're
going to be doing? They're gonna be doing podcasts about the
products. That's always the next step. Before you know it,
they'll be doing the Acura RDX podcast, you know, there'll be
producing it Yeah. Branded podcast I shared with you a mess
is troublesome is troublesome? Well, I shared with you a
message, someone approached me and said, a guy we know
reputable. He says, If I have $30 million, I want to start a
media company that that basically red pills or orange
pills people that gets people to understand or use Bitcoin and
does it in a soft handed way. And, and I'm actually talking to
him on Monday, because
Dave Jones: I hadn't been that guy. Oh, it would have I would
have thought it was bullshit. Yeah.
Adam Curry: And so I know what I'm going to say. The first
thing I'm going to say is, here's what's not to do, do not
invest a single dime in content, a single dime. But I'm going to
tell him and I'm it'd be completely selfish. I'm going to
say, what we need here is a marketing company, a company
that markets apps, podcasts, wallets, but really, if you want
to be a media company, then you should go to the now Linux, I'm
just gonna use Linux unplugged, because I like those guys. And
this is easy target. And the you will market the crap out of them
in return for which you get a 5% split more 1% I don't care, it's
irrelevant. From their feed. They really the your media
company should actually be a wallet provider to be honest
about it. You should be providing wallets and wallets
like a lightning service provider, you should be
providing services so that people can easily get a wallet,
easily funded. These are all the things that are hard. But what
all we need is we need marketing. We need PR we need we
need Mitch being doing interviews with publications, we
need Oscar, you know, because that's what happens with VC
money. When people get VC money first of all, you handcuffed
golden handcuffs, and then you wind up paying yourself and then
you know you you spend most of the money marketing you know to
get your next funding round. That's how it works. So so
instead I'm gonna say why don't you reverse that process? Cuz I
don't want any money from you. I I'm done with that I'm, I'm an
old guy, now. We're happy with podcasts index 1% of everything
that moves around. And of course, we get, you know, people
put more in there, people support us as value for value.
So as you look, I think we have, I think we have two Bitcoin now
on the node, which we never take out, it's there, we provide
liquidity to everybody.
Dave Jones: But that's when, when that dries up, we drove to
exact
Adam Curry: but the point is, is that that's coming from, you
know, not just booster Graham's for this show, it's coming from
a lot of different places. So and he does, he says, he doesn't
even relate. It's not even necessarily big profit, but
good, then you're perfect for a marketing company.
Dave Jones: But, but you jettison profit. Yeah. And this
is you're in the strike zone.
Adam Curry: I mean, I would just be promoting apps promoting
onboarding, we have everything you need. The last things, I
hope I can convince this guy not to do what everyone's gonna do.
Hey, man, yeah, let's make a studio, let's have a studio
where people can create shows, that's gonna suck. And as a is a
good way to throw away $30 million. That's not what's
needed here. We need this ecosystem we've created we need
it to be marketed. We need every and then there's the apps, the
podcasts, and there's only there's only 16 or 17,000
podcasts via you can, you can highlight stuff, you can create
an onboarding station. That's the one thing we don't have. We
don't have marketing. We never that's what people wanted
podcasts index to be. And we discovered we're no good at
that. We don't have the time, the talent or the treasure,
literally full time job. Yeah, I mean, it takes a huge
organization. So I hope, I hope even if I can get a million of
that 30 to be put into marketing what we're doing, that'll be a
win. So that's my, that's my coming week. That's what I'll be
doing. Well,
Dave Jones: podcast. Luckily, you know, this goes back to the
discussion we've had before where podcasting is a media
distribution. platform that's, that's already built. Everybody
already has a podcast, radio receiver in their pocket. So
instead of trying to build something new from scratch, you
know, which is typically what Bitcoin people try to do always.
Yeah, they try to bid it's like, it's the not invented here
stuff. Just take, you know, take, take your take your money
if you have some and build on top of something that's already
there. Like, I mean, that it's already there. Yeah. And have to
build it all over again.
Adam Curry: And don't Oh, and one other thing I'd have, um,
say. I think it would have to be a wall, you know, lightning
service provider, make it so that people can connect their
podcast to the value for value infrastructure. And that when
someone sends a boost, it drops into their, into their bank
account as dollars. This is the thing. Yeah, this is what this
is what we never were able to succeed. What was the name of
the company that was working now not will strike won't do it.
Worked on that. With those guys. One swung? Oh, no. Well, another
one that didn't do it. I was working with it, because I had
it working for a little bit. And I have x Yeah, X endevor. I
actually was okay with it. Until you know, they couldn't do it
anymore. Whatever, they fell apart. They never could do value
for value streaming side, they couldn't do lightning basically.
But if you can make it so that people don't have to make that
conversion you overnight, you sweep it into an account for
them. The strike for all I care, it doesn't matter where it is.
These are the things that will move it forward. And when you
get people using Bitcoin. That's the whole point. You don't want
to have to explain it to them. You want you want to give them a
way to use it. So hopefully they know it's not Jack Dorsey,
please blueberry.
Dave Jones: JD brown it give me a break.
Adam Curry: Anyway, so that's what I hope to bring to the next
board meeting something positive on that. Wouldn't that be great
if we got some we got someone that just marketed this stuff?
Because the last thing I want is that we don't want money. I
don't want money.
Dave Jones: No, no, it's too much stress.
Adam Curry: I mean, no, no, no, we don't we just I just want I
just want this to more people to be exposed to this market, the
apps market this stuff market aims Ainslie Costello, to market
the live show.
Dave Jones: Market this market the the the people who are
already there? Yes. And you don't doesn't include us with I
don't want any of that. No, because market market the people
that are already there that are producing the content people
want to hear.
Adam Curry: Hopefully it's going to be such a because I know he's
talking to other people about this. Hopefully it's going to be
such a different message that will go Oh, because I can
definitely tell them how I how I spent $65 million on it. Podcast
Network and tell him that so you want that that's fine. Now,
let's find out what you're talking about. Finally, find
lots of people to spend that money for you. But if you really
want to do something, if you have an outcome in mind, this is
what you do. Here's the people. It's it's we have 16,000 We
have, I mean, oh my god, imagine if we're marketing music and
music shows. Can you just imagine what happened?
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, I mean, this is the perfect time for
somebody to put money behind the music. Yep. The value for value
music ecosystem. Yep. Do it. I mean, like, yeah, and we'll and
we'll, and we'll keep building. It makes it work, keep
Adam Curry: building, keep building. And because we have
the value splits, everybody wins. Everybody wins, number go
up number go up for everybody. Well,
Dave Jones: we need to talk about one more thing before we
okay. Thank people. Sure. Yeah, sure. So would the other thing
is our terms of service for the podcast index? I mean, this is a
board meeting. So this is an appropriate topic that somebody
brought up on. On the podcast index, GitHub repos database
repository. Somebody posted on there that the that the term
that our terms of service prohibit prohibit, it's like,
section five dot something I don't know, fell asleep,
prohibits people from building databases based on the
information that they get from the index. Oh, really? Which?
Yeah. So I mean, for clarity, this the our terms of service
goes back to literally like day one. I mean, it's so it's been
there. I don't even know what's in it was a it was boilerplate
material. Yeah, let's rip that out. Yeah, do so do we need but
but if there's stuff in it, that we don't even know about that.
We need somebody to just write us to pay somebody just write us
some terms of service that make better sense.
Adam Curry: I think that we could have someone review it.
And one thing I know for sure there's lawyers in my life, who
will gladly help us out with their time and talent to just
run through it and say, Hey, this makes no sense for what
you're doing. So that right there five, a whatever it is, we
should just take that out, of course, people should be able to
build build databases off of our database.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that was like, what what? Yeah, no, we don't
want that. I mean, that's not that doesn't make any sense. I'm
sure it had something to say that that's the problem with
boilerplate stuff. And I'm sure it had something to do with
like, don't scrape us and build an email list or have a, you
know, some crap like that. Well,
Adam Curry: we know who we both know, who was in charge of
making those. Those terms of service, and that person had
different ideas about who we were and what we're about. Yeah.
So if
Dave Jones: it's probably like, I really wish that we could have
a terms of service that was just like, you know, don't do this.
Don't do this. Don't do this. But basically just a clear, it's
not like some 12 Page monstrosity, that nobody knows
what's in it. I wish it was just the simple thing that that said,
you know, hey, don't spam the don't spam the index. Right?
Don't you know, basically all this stuff? Like don't Don't be
a douche?
Adam Curry: How about that? Terms of Service? Point one a
Don't be a douche. There is no point to point
Dave Jones: yet. Point two is, you know, question mark. That's
what I want. Because I don't I have to stuff in the terms that
don't even I don't even understand. So well, if
Adam Curry: you're, if you're a lawyer, reach out to us. And I
will, we have a pretty good guy. Rob, who's, he does a lot of
analysis for me. And I'll ask him if he'll if he'll just run a
check and take a look. And he could probably just do that and
say, Hey, here's some things What do you think about this or
that? I mean, it's, it's not like writing something new, I
think we can just strip out or change chains of things that
aren't appropriate to what we're doing. And he understands value
for value.
Dave Jones: Okay, but like what good point back back then back
then when we first did it, I went through it and wrote a
simplified version of it. That was like, basically here's the
things that the terms say, but that was so long ago, I forgot
even what it was now. So interesting.
Adam Curry: Interesting. You bring that up? Because I'm right
now and that was for as much crap as I give ai ai ai because
you know, are
Dave Jones: you being Are you being seduced? No, no,
Adam Curry: no, I'm not being seduced. I'm actually let me
just bring this up here for a second. I think I sent you a
copy of this. But the I use otter.ai for our transcription.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you did send me this. Yeah. And
Adam Curry: is it still do you still have it? And what and then
so otter is is you For a number of things, people can use it
for, you know, for meetings and calls and all kinds of stuff.
And so it had this pre pre written thing. I'm gonna see if
I can replicate it. What are the action items from this meeting?
So this is on episode 161. And so I asked what are the action
items from this meeting, and it says some of the main and it
came back with something, which is really funny. Some of the
main action items from this meeting include making the
activity pub bridge code public on GitHub after removing API
tokens.
Dave Jones: That's exactly right. Yeah,
Adam Curry: did you do it and go okay, good job adding links to
popular podcast apps like pod verse Pocket Casts etc under
each episode on the activity pub bridge. Now of course not adding
support to heli pad to post booster grams as replies under
episode posts on the activity pub bridge another good idea?
No, of course not. I'm just reading writing right over three
writing an explainer document about activity pub to help
podcast developers understand and integrate with it and in my
defense, you have to defend anything brother only
Dave Jones: for in my design defending myself against this a
douche point for I did say by the end of the month, so I gave
myself plenty of time.
Adam Curry: And the following last one can I love this because
it actually gives us a good list of stuff to remind us of
continuing to improve caching issues on Mastodon to ensure
album art and other metadata is updated properly. No. Zero for
five good meeting everybody. Well, notice I had no action
items.
Dave Jones: What is what is this? Just what
Adam Curry: does this make you hate AI even more now?
Dave Jones: Yeah, it does. Actually.
Adam Curry: I'm gonna put these here i holding me accountable.
Ai action item list. I'm going to put I'm going to keep this in
the show notes. That's hilarious. Oh,
Dave Jones: yeah, we if you keep referring back to the old stuff
that the AI dealt with, we will see model collapse in real time
as we go forward. Ooh, nice.
Adam Curry: Yes.
Dave Jones: Let's make it let's let's Fried's brains, please.
Adam Curry: Let's thank a few people because I know you gotta
go back to the office. I'm sure I'm off today. Oh,
Dave Jones: no.
Adam Curry: Crack a beer brother. All right, here we go.
Nathan G this is all the live booths people with a row of
ducks if the index has all the booster grams where you've
received a split, because those could those be served as
lightning comments in the social interact tag. Why don't you just
grab the third rail and lick it this socket stick your fingers
in a socket. This is this is no doubt we'll
Dave Jones: never see the light of No. Promise you this not
happen but I appreciate enough money in the world to make that
happen. Not gonna happen.
Adam Curry: Hard Hat 12345 Thank you horrified. Go podcasts,
blueberry. With ADA ADA. Last Friday, Ainsley and I compiled
every boost and zapped to read them live on a special edition
of before the stream be be be 40. Yes. Even after reading the
booths at breakneck speeds, it took two and a half hours to get
through everything. He says exactly what I call value. Yes.
Yes. Beautiful. I love that. Sam Sethi a couple of boosts from
Sam. Let's see we enabled we just enabled people who create a
playlist to be paid 5% in someone else's if someone else
streams that are playlists, and the other 95% goes to the
podcaster. Very interesting. These are all these are all
great things. Sam is definitely running around. Dave is this is
10,000 SATs by the way this is 10,000 SATs each time, Dave, we
are already talking to three hosts to trial a verify podcast
method today is email. But in other ways token in the Verify
tag or simpler is the REL equals me model. Okay, do you want to
comment on that on that because he keeps pushing this the REL
equals me model?
Dave Jones: No, I don't I don't want to come in. Because I don't
know enough about about it. Yes, but I do. I will make this
general statement. I I intentionally stayed out of the
namespace until the end of the year. Because I felt like just a
personal conviction that it was that we were moving too fast and
we needed to slow down a bit to let people catch up. But I'm
back in there now started as of yesterday. Um back in there and
so we can feel if people were seeing that the discussions were
not happening or moving forward, feel free to pop back in there
now because I'm going to be active in the comments again,
Sam, as we enter, we can move forward, Sam
Adam Curry: is paying our rent today man, another 10,000 from
Sam Sethi. 100% Adam, advertisers will pay listeners
we will be able to tell advertisers who listened percent
completed and value paid to listener. This is negative sets,
which we already support in true fans using value time split. If
I listen, I get paid. If not, nothing is paid. I'd love to see
an example of an advertiser doing that and how you prevent
clicks. Ma'am, we do another 10,000 phase seven looks super
hot XMPP client verify and publisher l fountain will be the
other app. But we already have another app. So it's cool. Yeah.
XMPP I'm kind of excited about that concept for another 10,000
samsat. The the medium of publisher is a static good we
have a medium of Publisher L and we also add the feed items we
can update the publisher page if a new episode is published. Does
that make sense?
Dave Jones: This part of this is part of their thing where they
where they can add stuff to the feed back out.
Adam Curry: I think so. Yeah. So you can subscribe to the
publisher L and then you get the episodes there. I think I have
to go look at it. Okay,
Dave Jones: well, well, well, we just we need we're gonna start
having guests again. Yeah, so we need to have we'll just have Sam
back on the show. We
Adam Curry: got to have him back on the show. Then we have
another 10,000 from Sam we have implement you might as well be a
guest we have implemented a publisher playlist so you follow
a publisher we notify you of any new updates got it. That's good.
So this is going to be in phase seven then 500 from radio Pete
Hello radio Pete he says listening live like a 2.0 Pro
Happy New Year to you both hoping to understand more of
what you talk about in 2024 I'm sure he got very confused by the
beginning of the show. Probably sorry. I love people who say I
listen to the show. I don't get most of it but I love listening
to the show. That's that's my favorite
Dave Jones: type of feedback. That is a real as a real
compliment. It
Adam Curry: is it is because we're making stuff entertaining
even if it's gobbledygook Yeah, Eric p p 3333. Boost plus plus
salty Crayon 3333 says test test received and let me see I think
that's what I got. Yes, that's all I have.
Dave Jones: Oh, see we get a wait. I gotta get a printer.
Hello.
Adam Curry: Get off the printer. By the way I've printed
Dave Jones: two things out and I forgot to go okay would you say
by the way what no no
Adam Curry: keep don't forget forget me. No,
Dave Jones: because I forgot to pull Oscar Mary's Pay Pal of
$200 off the printer thank you I was coming Wow
Adam Curry: Hello Oscar. Mary Thank you very much. Let me do
allow for you brother 20 blades on I am Paula always him always
appreciated.
Dave Jones: Yeah. And I had not had my first live experience
using fountain the other day I had not listened to anything
live on fountain and it was good.
Adam Curry: Oh, it works very well. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I popped into oh, what's the one that Dame
DeLorean does the
Adam Curry: live the that's the is it in that this the smoker in
the smoker and now
Dave Jones: that's Carolyn and this MEF got what it is that
camera? It's like it starts with age but it can't.
Adam Curry: Now it'll come to hog story hug story. Now
Dave Jones: as long story, it's a music podcast.
Adam Curry: Oh homegrown,
Dave Jones: his hunger on hits? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
you. Yep, homegrown, has good show. Great experience on on
fountain. See, and here. Here's our here's our replies. So this
is from this is from Trevor the Satanist in Australia. He says
Hi, Dave, please, this this is in response to our comment about
weather about the Satan like, oh, this dynamic ad is yes.
Adam Curry: Oh, you mean the 666 in our in our what? What was
that about? I don't remember. At
Dave Jones: least we commented that. You said that anybody? You
know you're used to it. Anybody who allows you know who
encourages Google and YouTube to be part of your podcast
infrastructure. You're
Adam Curry: one of Satan's helpers. Yes. And I stand by
that. Yeah. And
Dave Jones: you said in you also said that. We made the comment
that that not even Satan likes dynamic ad insertion. And he
says, Hi Dave, please accept this message as Pay Pal booster
gram. message read next time my mother PayPal donations
mentioned congratulations on episode 161 which had a record
six references to Satan? To answer your question, Satan is
ambivalent about giving RSS to YouTube. But he's definitely
against dynamic and it's not even Satan would stoop that low.
Also, I know you guys are into numerology and I know that with
approval your podcast ID is 9200666. I see what you did
there. Cheers, Trevor.
Adam Curry: That's fine. How much did he give us? What was
his?
Dave Jones: His monthly is this $5 more? Thank
Adam Curry: you. I have a while we're on that just really
quickly. You know, I like I like my email address in my RSS feed.
I like getting the invitations to interview people. I like
being on those I do I do is very interesting. I've never taken
advantage of it. But I got this from a couple of different
people. So there's a campaign out there. And I just want to
let everybody know. It's the subject line Hi, internet
traffic from YouTube message. When we think about all the
traction, we can gain for podcast, there are only a few
channels that really stand out in regards to high intent
traffic. The fact of the matter is that who wrote this chat GPT
the fact of the matter is that YouTube is more of a search
engine than than a social media. Being able to optimize your
content to get those people who are interested in the exact
topic of a video is imperative. If you're uploading your video
to YouTube as is and not doing any around video optimization,
you're leaving 1000s if not hundreds of 1000s of high intent
engagement on the table. If you're wondering about how your
channel is currently performing, and its potential to grow,
please feel free to schedule a call. And I got this message
from multiple people clearly through email address in in the
podcast in RSS feed. So a call please,
Dave Jones: people would be shocked by the amount of by the
number of people that email us wanting to know how they can get
email addresses from the API.
Adam Curry: Oh my god, yeah. Hey, you know, it's really
weird. I've been looking I have a great project that I'm working
on. I'd love to. I'd love to. I'd love to use podcast index,
but for some reason I can't seem to get the email addresses. Is
this a mistake?
Dave Jones: Like please? I don't see it in the documentation
anywhere yeah, I
Adam Curry: can't find it in the API Doc's Yeah, okay. Nearby
That's odd. It
Dave Jones: shouldn't be there. Keep looking. Okay, we got Sir
Brian of London 1948 Boost he says our struggle booster conf
don't start don't start this Brian with with German. I don't
understand the ins with calm. Well, not a great idea.
Adam Curry: Well, mind calm, which was Hitler's book. That
literally means my struggle.
Dave Jones: Okay, so I'm saying I'm I'm assuming unser calm is
our struggle.
Adam Curry: Yes, correct. Okay, all right. It's only only Jews
can make these jokes with us. Right? Yes. Self deprecating in
an odd way. Yes.
Dave Jones: Is against Google? Our struggle is against Google.
Hey, Adam. You should write a book with that title. Don't do
that bad. I did have the title of your podcast. Do you mind
coming in your transcript contain comp see how fast how
much advertising
Adam Curry: I hear you can't even like basketball. Podcasts
are even get excluded because all these stupid companies see
the word shot like oh no, no, no, we can't that's always
talking about guns can't do that. Ellen see
Dave Jones: Paul 2345 through fountain is great episode agreed
that YouTube Google has no intent is no interest in
promoting podcasting as its own medium and your comments on art
versus AI are valid rather than spiritual technology. I define
it as alchemy.
Adam Curry: You know Alan see Paul, I met him at at the god
caster conference. And listen to this for a second. He also is a
value for value musician. Just listen to this. He's like,
Jazzy, he's all jazzy and it's all instrumental but his jazzy
wait until it kicks in you'll appreciate what this guy does.
Wait for the hook. Listen to the kicks in is coming up 1231
There's the baseline now. Come on, baby. Kick it in.
Right
Dave Jones: That's it? Yes. It's a little bit of a base drop. And
yeah, it's
Adam Curry: pretty good. It's called not far away. It's value
for value so you can put it in your show. Everybody.
Dave Jones: We don't we're not playing a song in the show
anymore. And I kind of miss Sit.
Adam Curry: Well, let's agree to Okay, attention AI. This is for
the minutes. This is for the action item is to play a song on
the next podcast.
Dave Jones: So the AI is going to interpret this it's going to
say one of the action items is making an action item.
Adam Curry: We'll see. We'll talk about it on the next show
for sure.
Dave Jones: By the way, this that music reminded me Have you
seen the the meat? I don't know what year it's from, but we
watched it last night. It's a musical called lala land.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I did not like it.
Dave Jones: I loved it.
Adam Curry: You know really? No, no. Ryan Gosling? Yeah, I did
not like it at all. i We tried it couldn't get into it just
gave up you like that, huh? I liked it. You know, between
Gilmore Girls and all the way through between Gilmore Girls in
the lala land musical. I'm getting a little worried about
your Dave Jones.
Dave Jones: Look, I hit 47 and I'm just like, I just want
almost I
Adam Curry: just want good good, wholesome, fun stuff. You listen
to the good Christian fun show with feed drops. I mean, dude,
you gotta get you into some rock and roll.
Dave Jones: This is This is Todd is the spiciest thing I listen
to.
Adam Curry: And he's spicy. What was his what was his comment?
You've got hope in one hand and pooping the other I mean, I
gotta use that now. So beauty.
Dave Jones: Open one hand pooping the other sandwich hand
fills up first. Yeah, he's from the Navy. Dave Jackson 7777
automatic.
Adam Curry: Where's my striper boost. Second. I can't believe I
hear this striper boost. striper boasts
Dave Jones: a says standing ovation. Well done boys. Thanks.
Now now this is interesting though. Cast ematic is where
this boost came from and it has a reply address in it. Oh, very
cool can boost back to cast thematic addresses.
Adam Curry: I love that he
Dave Jones: tells me that it's into cast meta uses Alby so
anybody using Albie should be able to
Adam Curry: do let me tell you Eric P P. I know you're busy
man. Bro, if I could get a reply button for boosts I would be
replying all the time. By love that idea. Healthy unhealthy,
Pat obviously. What? How cool would that be?
Dave Jones: He's in the chat. Yes.
Adam Curry: Yes. Man a few words. That's right. Yes, action
item Eric TP put reply in the helipad. Oh,
Dave Jones: he's he's working. He says I'm bashing my head
against that code. Okay,
Adam Curry: action items bash head against the code. No.
Dave Jones: Ai removed that action item. Let's see. You've
got to have friends and Belay that order. Okay, here we go.
Blueberry 33 333 through. Blue CLI says channel enter trailer
Narrator coming sunday live after no agenda. January 7 and
the resurrection battle of the douchebags season two, episode
one. Here we go again. reverb. Reverb reverb.
Adam Curry: Wow. I can't wait for that. I'll I'll be around.
I'll listen to it.
Dave Jones: Okay, that's, that's it. We've literally got four
boosts that other than the ones that arrived before the show.
And well,
Adam Curry: the comics or blogger has failed, I think.
Dave Jones: Yeah, it failed to us. The other splits work. Yeah.
Let me see if I can pull up his he sent. Yeah,
Adam Curry: it was interesting. Because even credit because I'm
getting other phone booths. I'm not sure why it failed. Then it
did go and check. And we have no, I think fountain is now
completely on Zebedee. So they probably close out the channel
to us. And I said, Hey, could you open one and Oscar said he
would ask Zebedee to open a channel to us. So it could have
been a routing issue. I'm not sure I mean, the fountain should
definitely have a channel open to the index.
Dave Jones: Oh for sure isn't here like if they don't that's a
real problem. We're like we're like
Adam Curry: the routing Mecca. And we have you know, our fees
are almost zero.
Dave Jones: Well, yeah, I'm looking at he CSB in his
screenshot, blanked out his message. Did you get it on the
no
Adam Curry: because believe it or not, my fiber went down I
guess last night, around the time probably around midnight or
something and I didn't notice that it was down until this
morning. Now the beautiful thing about great and not great they
it's almost perfect. I've started nine is my node. When if
you unplug the ethernet and I wish it would be if there's no
internet connection on the Ethernet but if you unplug the
ethernet, it immediately goes towards a known Wi Fi network.
And I have a, I have a backup system that it then switches
over to so the minute that happened I just made I noticed
that I pulled out the Ethernet and it switched it over and my
node came right back up, unfortunately doesn't do that.
When, when there's when the connectivity is lost, you know,
if it still sees packets from the router or whatever it
doesn't, it doesn't fail over. So anyway, so I don't miss the
eight hours worth of payments. Okay,
Dave Jones: well, I got I was able to it did go through the
fountain boost bot, so I'm able to see him as a comment. So
Adam Curry: everything no yeah, of course. Yeah.
Dave Jones: I want to give him credit. 33,000 SATs, says Howdy,
David Adam. Hey there dear podcast listeners, I'd like to
invite you to check out and subscribe to my blog, which
features some hilarious cartoons, just head over to www
dot CSB dot lol and get ready to laugh yo Yos ESP
Adam Curry: and I just want to remind CSB that sometimes his
his command of the English language comes across as a
little bit harsh desert when you're criticizing the app
developers, I mean, I've known him longer than I've known to
have my wives you come across as a dick's have just you know,
throw you know, when when you write something that's feedback,
run it through chat GPT four, and say please make this sound
friendly. Because that that's actually a good idea. I should
probably do that.
Dave Jones: Run it through there and then say, Do I sound like a
dick? No,
Adam Curry: no, no, no, just hold on a second. So this since
you have a little time. Let me let me just move just we can try
it right now. I don't have chat GPT four, but I have 3.5 but
just find his his post where it was very mean. He was mean to
Sam he was mean to Sam actually. Okay, he says Sam Sethi. I've
tried your true fans web app but it's totally useless and bad. No
indication which splits failed and which succeeded I tested on
my doorman podcast and whispering was not arriving in
full despite appearing in history a scent pad usability on
iPhone, so no thanks. If you will implement in future showing
in history, the splits and their status for each pen Bookstagram
then let me know I might take a look again. So let's copy that.
Okay, let's see what AI does. It's worth it. Okay. Make this
message sound friendly. Okay, paste. See what happens. See
what it does? Hey, there, I gave your true fans webapp a shot,
but I encountered a few challenges. It was a bit tricky
to figure out which splits failed and which one succeeded?
I tested it on my inactive podcast I noticed that booster
grams weren't arriving in full even though they showed up in
history ascend. The usability of my iPhone wasn't the best so for
now I'll pass however, if you consider implementing a feature
to show the splits and their status in the history recent
Bookstagram in the future I'd be interested in giving another try
let me know if that's in the works. Smile emoji. Wow. Wow.
Wow, can
Dave Jones: we can we put this somehow into podcast index dot
social, so that when CSB posts and it detects negativity it
will automatically do this but only for us him it still shows
up
Adam Curry: that's the new Bozo filter is you see it as your own
nasty gram but it shows up for everybody else in a nice way
that's a knob there's a use of AI I actually support hold on so
I'm gonna I'm going to ask him right now friend friend defied
with chat GPT paste to find with doesn't work because it's too
long for the I don't have enough no for the
Dave Jones: mean like this is this is a good because what will
happen is just like this this app is crap this thing is worse
piece of effing junk I've ever seen and what you get back from
the developers like little hearts they're like some kind
Adam Curry: what was the other one? He said he said something
to Oscar Mayer This is funny
Dave Jones: I think that was the one about the channel or
something. Or no, no, I know what you're talking about is
that the app gets broken.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I wish I could find that one. I was hilarious.
I can't find it that fast. Anyway, that's that's that or
you know be could also could also be it could be just on the
receiving side. You could just turn on make all posts friendly.
Dave Jones: Yeah. You don't have a choice. Everything gets friend
deferred. Yeah,
Adam Curry: we're not done with that. Now. That's something that
I would be okay with I wouldn't be fine with it oh here it is
understandable way this was the deplorable that's what it was it
was the deplorable yes and deplorable that get Alby is not
offering okay I'm just deplorable that get Alby is not
offering details in dashboard and an API message sender and
message texts are calling a blah, blah blah. was a different
post about deplorable. Anyway, I don't I don't remember exactly
where it was.
Dave Jones: Let's see ESPYS he's an AI guy he can he can he can
figure it out. Yes.
Adam Curry: That's the way to write his own script. That's the
way to go. I think that that will be perfect. It's much
better, much better that we do or do that
Dave Jones: thing where you know how you know sometimes they have
those bots where you can say where you can tag somebody else
in the post and the bot will grab that post and do something
with it. Yes, yeah. Friend, you can you see a nasty post from
somebody. You can say friend to fight you can send it to the
friend of five baht and it'll come back with the nice version.
monthlies. Oh, yeah, we got pot, Brendan a pod page. $25. Thank
you, Brandon. Over there, Paige. Appreciate that. Jesse $110.
Joseph maraca $5 mo Emilio Kendall Molina, $4, Mark, gram
$1 and new media $1. Thank you guys.
Adam Curry: Thank you all very much value for value. We've been
talking about it throughout the whole podcast, it is a real
thing. It does work. It's kept this entire this community
really together. We appreciate the value you send to the show
so much. You can go to podcast index.org. Down at the bottom
you'll see two red donate buttons. One is for your Fiat
fun coupons, as you heard we absolutely accept Paypal. And
the other one is for tally coin for all that on chain Bitcoin
everyone's going to send us and the last payment was October 27
of 2023. So it doesn't seem to be working that well. However,
get a modern podcast app at podcast apps.com Fill up your
wallet boost us boots to boost to your heart's content. We read
all the messages that you heard. And you contribute back to the
show in two ways. One by supporting the whole project
supporting the podcast. And and by supporting us with some with
some nice words of encouragement. We hope we hope
Dave Jones: and if you don't we will turn them into nice words.
Yes. With
Adam Curry: with Chad GPT. Exactly. Yes. Wow. Okay, well,
what are we got? Wow. 217 This is long.
Dave Jones: Oh, whoa, we're, uh,
Adam Curry: we're way over. We're way over. Alright. I will
get the action items from the AI later and I'll I'll I'll have
those ready for the next show.
Dave Jones: I will predict and make a bold prediction that as
of next week, none of these action items will be done.
Exactly.
Adam Curry: Hey, brother, have yourself a great weekend. Dave.
Everybody else in the boardroom. Have a great weekend. We'll talk
to you next week here on podcast.
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Adam Curry: go podcast. Holy cow