Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for January 19 2024, episode 164
Let's get local. Well hello everybody welcome once again to
the official board meeting a 5.0. Except no alternatives. If
you want to know what's going on in podcasting, it's happening
right here. While it's happening here. It's happening in podcast
index.org It's happening on the namespace. It's happening in
podcasts index dot social, we are the only boardroom that
moves in phases. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas
Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who builds bridges for
anyone to cross say hello to my friend on the other end the one
and only Mr. Day
you fired up today. Oh, come on. I mean, we have to differentiate
ourselves from all these other podcasts about podcasts.
Dave Jones: Yeah, this starts off, you know. Hey,
Adam Curry: hey, welcome. Welcome your way. Well, how was
How was your week? Exactly? Hey, how was your week? Yeah. Hey,
are you in the podcast Hall of Fame yet? Dave Jones?
Dave Jones: Not yet. You shouldn't be should be. I've got
another 10 years
Adam Curry: in the future Hall of Fame. You should you totally
belong there.
Dave Jones: Totally waste says you're not Eric. PP says we're
not lit. Oh,
Adam Curry: we're not lit. You know why? Because I didn't hit
the lit. Oh, that's why. Sorry about how that works. I was
distracted by all the awesome music and that's what it was
when I second
Dave Jones: your your pet. Your status is still pending.
Adam Curry: I know. I know. I'm a pending full. I'm a pending
fool. Okay. No wonder
Dave Jones: I didn't get I'm sorry, the AP bridge.
Adam Curry: I suck. I suck the cam. Sorry. It should be working
now. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Dave Jones: We keep piling on.
Adam Curry: That's the worst. It happens at least once a month.
Once a month is happens. I mean, there's so many things to think
of. No, I gotta connect the split kit. I gotta set the new.
Set the right title on the streaming software. I've got to
make sure I'm not jumping in on people who are just late on the
stream. So many things to think of
Dave Jones: our job. You have a hard job
Adam Curry: and I wouldn't say that's true. At all. It's not
even a job. I've for 16 years. I've not had a job. I just I
just do I have a calling.
Dave Jones: Oh, what is not a hobby? No,
Adam Curry: no, it's a calling. It's a calling. It's a call
Hello boardroom. We are live and lit. Which means everybody is in
the if you're if you're a part of podcasting 2.0 Hopefully you
have an app that to bring you into the boardroom or you know
what we're talking about was
Dave Jones: yesterday only sat on a booster.
Adam Curry: Oh, that felt good.
Dave Jones: Let me let me give you give you an update from the
what would you call this the the brave new world? Oh, there we
go. I see. We're okay. The brave new world of what the brave new
world of all electric heat. Oh, feels directly in our homes
anymore. Yeah,
Adam Curry: Alex, what is it? I mean, you might as well be
mining Bitcoin, probably. It
Dave Jones: blows chunks. I mean, it is not fun. So, the
Burkman Birmingham, Alabama.
Adam Curry: Now, what did what we had 11 degrees. past couple
of days in Texas. What did you have?
Dave Jones: So rough, roughly the same? We had 13 on Tuesday
morning. 13 we had 13 on Tuesday. So silver 15. On
Tuesday, we had 13 on Wednesday. Yeah. We get one day of of warm
up. And now tomorrow morning. It's going to be again 15 Yeah,
we get the sun in another morning in the morning after
that is going to be again 15 degrees. So, you know, our our
house is like 130 years old.
Adam Curry: I'm sorry to hear that.
Dave Jones: It's the bones of this house are fantastic. I
mean, like, you know, it I mean, it's every bit the sturdy, you
know, thing that you would think it is? But there's not a lick of
insulation anywhere. And right, right, right. The so we went to
these mini split, like multi head mini split units about five
years ago, multi
Adam Curry: head mini split units. Is that a sex toy? I'm
not sure what that
Dave Jones: is. It can be depends on how you use it. What
exactly a little higher off the ground to sit on but I mean, you
could you can make it work if you really want it. Okay, but
So, do you know what is the minimum Blood unit is basically
a it's a heat pump, but it has you see these things all over?
Well, they're very popular now. But you see them all over Japan?
Well,
Adam Curry: the heat pumps are the are the new climate change
mitigation technology?
Dave Jones: Yeah, yes. Your pure electric, you know, all electric
heat. Yeah. And they
Adam Curry: basically don't work is what I keep hearing. Well,
Dave Jones: you're, so we're good. And because we, the way
this thing works is you have heads in each head and each head
unit in each room. And there's, there's like zones, you know,
right. So you can have different zones be different temperatures
and each, so the four might have four head units attached to one
outside compressor into the compressor outside. And it's a
it's air conditioning during the summer heat during the winter.
And all it does, it's got a thing called a four way
reversing valve. So during the winter, instead of taking the
heat out of your house, it takes the heat out from outside and
dumps it into your house. It's a great, it's a great concept and
it's during the summer, it saves us hundreds of dollars a month,
right? The problem is, usually if you think it through, you're
taking the heat from outside so your your inside coil in in a
heat situation, your inside coil in the unit in your house, is
now you know, 140 degrees. Your outside unit is now freezing is
now dumping all the cold out. And so it's going to it's going
to ice up and freeze. So it has to go through a defrost cycle a
couple of times an hour and when that happens ever the whole
thing shuts off. Yeah, it reverses itself back to air
conditioning mode to heat the outside coil to melt the ice
then switches itself back to heat mode and begins to function
like a heater again. Yeah, this this is this 10 to 15 minutes of
defrost cycle in an old house with no insulation. Yes, socks
is a killer, especially when you're winning. So if you're
down if you're like, we're good down to like 30 about 30
degrees. It be lower than 30 it starts to drop off. Then if you
get into the teens, you're toast. Yeah, I mean like I hope
they're not toast
Adam Curry: actually,
Dave Jones: you're you're not frozen popsicle. I woke up so
we're in they run all the time constantly. We're running space
heaters. My power bill is like $35 a day right now. Wow. And I
woke up Wednesday and our bedroom was like 48 degrees. You
Adam Curry: know it is you could just be a real man and heat your
house with 17 Terra hash of Bitcoin mining power Yeah, it
Dave Jones: would only cost me $28,000 No.
Adam Curry: Well we have I think we have $9 a kilowatt 99 nine
cents a kilowatt hour. So I have the miners in the garage and the
garage has been okay that mean without it would have been
freezing and so that's how I heat the garage and in the
summer the garage is really warm it's really tasty. But we have a
traditional H vac system and it also does not perform very well
under 15 degrees then you have to put in on the fan has to be
on constantly it starts to make this the sound the compressor
makes this weird sound and it's apparently a good brand unit and
I've had the guy overhead I remember last winter I had him
over and he said oh yeah No they just don't work well under 15
degrees so what's the point
Dave Jones: now is yours a gas furnace or is it he pulled its
heat was that with gas backup?
Adam Curry: Yeah well with gas backup yes and we do have a
appropriate well propane not gas we have a propane fireplace so
that heats up the most of the house because it's all open
floor plan that he's the house nice yeah that's okay we only
had one one day where you know we woke up and it was 66 which
is the temperature we have and we sleep and then it went down
to 6360s are going down yeah going back up again. And then
yeah
Dave Jones: going back down into the teens again and this couple
of days and I wake up this morning and the powers going
nuts and lights going on and off thing of you know the that cycle
issue they've been here forever finally just finally got an A
power county guy to come out today is World squirrel on the
line know that they found a bad neutral to the transformer. So
yeah, he said they said it should be good to go right now
because I was like, Oh man, if we if we lose power, We're so
screwed. You know? Well,
Adam Curry: that's why I have fossil
Dave Jones: fuel any day of the week. Yeah. Now please
Adam Curry: know it's a scam. You know, they they they say oh,
it's gonna be freezing rain I saw no rain no precipitation at
all I said this is not coming and of course it didn't but they
jacked up the prices. So yeah, and and we have a generator and
of course you know the generators to ensure that your
power pretty much never goes out ever again which is what it did
in power didn't go out to the generator just sitting there and
waiting and waiting for it and you know for the big Apocalypse
it didn't come. But that's okay. It was nice and toasty inside. I
eked out a booster gram ball, which I hadn't done in over a
week, which I was really happy about.
Dave Jones: Congratulations. It made me smile to see a drop.
Adam Curry: Did you Did you listen to what he just watched
it drop? No, I just watched your drop
Dave Jones: and then a wind about
Adam Curry: something productive with your
Dave Jones: resume I can of spray foam insulation trying to
not die.
Adam Curry: Anyway, there was all kinds of stuff going on. I
think the split kids database provider had some issue and it
was very hard troubleshooting everything. I feel like
Dave Jones: that's going on, you know, code database on the split
kit problem. Yeah, yeah, it
Adam Curry: came back up. Came back. Okay. It worked out. Okay.
But just speaking. What are we drinking show beer.
Dave Jones: Oh, this? No, not at lunch break? No, this is a
mineral water.
Adam Curry: Yeah, what kind? What's
Dave Jones: the calorie free? Is a polar seltzer does have
natural flavors. It has no flavors. It says its premium and
naturally calorie free. This is the flavor of this is original
Adam Curry: Jazz, but doesn't have the ingredients natural
flavors, because this is the scam that I'm not okay, because
that's anything but natural flavors. And
Dave Jones: the ingredients say carbonated water pay go? Yeah.
And
Adam Curry: following along with the podcast index dot social, I
saw that wavelike all of a sudden, as you say, entered the
room. What did they what did they do exactly.
Dave Jones: But they they put channel level value blocks in.
So they have you know, they've never had channel level value
blocks. Everything's been at the episode level. And it had
something I never fully understood. But Michael said, it
just has something to do with the way they were just the way
their system was built, did it it was kind of hard for them to
do a channel level value block. And so you know, a try. I tried
to make it work a little bit. I thought I could let me get back
into it and say the problem with that the rent. It's not a
humongous problem for most apps, but there's a couple of apps
like breeze that that really did struggle with this because Oh, I
didn't know that. Yeah, so the way that the way the podcast
index database is set up with value box, there's two different
tables, there's a value box, there's a a new there's a news
feed value blog table, and then there's an item's everything a
slash episodes value blocks table that have relationships.
And so the the way like, for instance, the way breeze works
is it only shows value enabled feeds, you know, it's not a
general purpose player, if it doesn't have a value. Oh,
Adam Curry: yes, I get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah.
Dave Jones: And so the is the, the API calls for searching
value enabled feeds just wouldn't return anything because
they're the item label. I got Yeah, they technically weren't
value enabled feeds they were value enabled episodes. So that
never really got resolved in so now that's all fixed so now
breeze should have all the music.
Adam Curry: So I was I was listening to the episode one of
waveform that's the podcast. I'll do it yeah. But if you
could look at that feed for a second because you know, I only
look on grants that I'm looking at it podcast guru which has
always been spot on for me. And it has I mean I know they played
at least two songs but and they said that you know they were
splitting the the V for V but I see they have one value time
split one but not the it seemed like they are having some issues
with their value time and I also don't think they have their
podcasts that is medium equals music. No I wouldn't be meeting
equals music I'm sorry. That's wrong.
Dave Jones: Anyway, can at the item level and they have a value
Adam Curry: they value time split in there. They have one
now they have two or they do because I don't only one showed
up maybe that maybe that something with
Dave Jones: that two of them. Yeah. Is they both valid person?
Adam Curry: Are they both valid because I only only one shows up
for me
Dave Jones: to thought was weird pod in pod verbs. Podcast
Adam Curry: Guru is what I was looking at
Dave Jones: podcast. Let me check to see me check cast O
Matic because KISSmetrics got a pretty Yeah, clear. That's what
I mean clear and as you are.
Adam Curry: And while you're while you're looking at that,
now, I'm delighted that to do it that they're making these
changes because they can be so important in the value verse, I
keep saying using this word, they can be so important in the
value verse by just being a great music host. Because they
understand how to speak to artists and they have and
they've got the vibe going. Then I was listening to them on the
podcast. And it was, I mean, there was a lot about noster and
like it's just frustrates me because then I then I see
Zebedee, Zebedee is the the big noster wallet guy, right.
Zebedee does it biddies every day. Yeah, that's too and
they're promoting music playlists on on fountain. So
looks like some capitulation there.
Dave Jones: Zebedee is Yeah,
Adam Curry: well the other got video ads running on on Twitter.
Yeah. Which by the way, make make voting fountain. Well, it
makes they make it look like honestly at first I was like is
Aberdeen amended this looks like fountain but it's Zebedee now
was anybody's anybody's liberties? Ebody somebody
somebody's liberty?
Dave Jones: Yeah. And the days they're
Adam Curry: back in? Yeah. And then at the very end, it says it
has the fountain logo. Next, Zebedee. But they kind of make
it look like you create a playlist on fountain you get
paid.
Dave Jones: Oh, the you do, right.
Adam Curry: I don't know. Is that but that must be a fountain
specific thing.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I think I think it is. That makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah, I think it is now I think you do get a get a cut.
And then I think Sam Sethi said that true fans is doing that
too. If you make playlists,
Adam Curry: okay, that's me get a cut. But then can I subscribe
to that playlist? In a different app? Or is that only is it only
that I don't know when that true fans see that? That's where I'm
like, oh, maybe no, make it available. So you can share it
with everybody. Otherwise, you're kind of making the
Spotify mistake. Spotify thought they could keep it all but you
need the whole ecosystem.
Dave Jones: Now this is interesting. Steven bass as we
found out Zebedee doesn't work in Florida because of state
regulations. How is is that based on Geo IP? Do you know I
think
Adam Curry: it works. But you can't you can't take you can't
take SATs out of Zebedee. I think I think I think it works.
Dave Jones: This is so messed up. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Oh, yes. Correct. is messed up. Absolutely. That's
really in Manhattan, New Hampshire. You can't transfer
sets. That's it. Yeah. But you can bet you can send them right.
You can use the wallet to send just can't transfer it out of
the wallet into something. Yeah. Oh, you can't boost. Wow. Wow,
Dave Jones: this is that's crazy. I had no idea that there
was that they have to be doing Jeep geolocation. Well, to
Adam Curry: be honest, who needs Florida? Come on, which is
Dave Jones: the appendix of the United States. Hanging that's
not doing much. That's
Adam Curry: messed up. Oh, that's interesting.
Dave Jones: Um, I guess VPN would work.
Adam Curry: Maybe? Maybe?
Dave Jones: I don't know. It as weird.
Adam Curry: Well, that's that's a that's a that's like, a non
starter almost. That's weird.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Because I mean, it doesn't seem to be the
case without be. No.
Adam Curry: Well, they're in Germany. Tell they got a whole
whole different thing going on there. I will run into these
problems. There's no doubt about it. But But anyway, the point
being the music stuff feels like it's working. You know, it's
like people are drawing closer. I love seeing wave Lake, doing
something that makes it better. And I can only presume they're
doing more. I'm just not feeling the heat from noster I'm just
not feeling it. I'm not glad I'm granted. I'm a little biased
because we follow Jay 55 on the on the mostre bridge through
podcasts index dot social. And it just seems like he's the only
guy I know he's not. He's the only guy and he's basically
building everything. under that app, everything, you know, the
database, the search, it's all in one app. And that's it.
Unless you have that app, you don't have any of the
functionality. He's like, it's like an app and a relay in one.
Dave Jones: It's the noster is just a, it's it's hanging on by
a thread. If enough Domus goes, it's over. Are you sure? Yeah.
Adam Curry: I mean, you say that I just don't know. I just don't
know.
Dave Jones: How many. I guarantee you that. 90% of the
people who are on noster are also also on Twitter. Oh, well,
because and
Adam Curry: telegram that's where they have a telegram group
to discuss to discuss developments. So yeah.
Dave Jones: It seems like a fun hobby for them. No, that's what
it seems like. It seems like a fun hobby for Bitcoiners to try
to build this thing, and that's fine. But it's not I don't see
this thing having seen I have no I have no confidence that noster
will still be around five years from now.
Adam Curry: In a way it's kind of the same issue that activity
Pub has is no activity Pub is universally seen as the mastodon
thing. And, and the the social network noster is seen as what
noster is, even though noster clearly can be much more
universal login. You know, there's there's a lot of benefit
to some of that.
Dave Jones: When we ran in, you know, we ran into we've hit
we've hit the first problem with the whole nostre thing. Right?
You know, this week is so Alex Gleason is Jills. He's working
on nos. He's the one that built the monster bridge and all that.
He's doing a lot of noster work and he was like, Well, how do I
get podcasts? How do I get the value information so that we can
zap podcasts when they come through the bridge? Right? Oh,
Adam Curry: oh, wow. Wait a minute. So so we're going from
the podcast index, to the activity pub bridge to the
nostril bridge, through the nostril bridge sexy. Okay,
that's super interrupt, except when it when it comes out the
other end. On the Nasir bridge, we've we lost everything. We the
resolution is very low because we don't have splits. That's
Dave Jones: it. And that's where it all falls apart is because
you so you have a you have a podcast with six splits in it,
different people getting paid. You can't there's no way to zap
that. You can't. It just all falls apart. They stick because
To my knowledge, they still have no sense of what a true of a
true split. And and all that stuff is just it's just a mess.
Adam Curry: It's so weird, because it I mean, I've seen the
proposals. I've seen the what is it the spectrum proposal from
GG?
Dave Jones: Yeah, but see, that wasn't a real that was just an
article saying we need this. Nobody's fully baked it yet.
That in a way, that's not a central US solution. I mean,
that you, you could say like, the prison thing is what you're
talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's been there's been
there's been other things that are like a centralized prism
service where you can send this thing to them, and they'll
they'll do some sort of splitting for you. But that's
like a I mean, it's just a service, that's a product.
Adam Curry: Well, but when the when the podcast comes through,
take it to the bridge comes through the bridge, then goes to
the master bridge, can't it take the payment information along
and just translate those? I mean, yeah, you'd have to zap
them individually. I guess that seems like the only way you
could do that. Well, it's
Dave Jones: all ln URL that see this. And this is another core
problem with with with noster. And zapping and all this kind of
stuff is it was built. It's built by the Ellen URL, people.
So they've made a commitment to Ellen URL over Kison from day
one. And so it's a more it's a more complicated that you can't
just grab a note ID and send instant money you have to go
through this handshake rigmarole of getting an invoice for every
payment you want to make. So there's this there's just not a
they've felt like they've hamstrung themselves with with
this dedication to Ellen URL. Where as if it was just a bunch
of key sends a bunch of key sins. Yeah, that's easy. You
just get a list of address and key send it right like literally
the value block is what is all you need, and you can just lock
it out. You can just pop pop up pop up, right
Adam Curry: because the ln URL that you have to have some
interaction with the wallet you have to you have to say yes pay
or Yes. Voice and then you have to enter the amount And then pay
is that is that the that's the difference?
Dave Jones: Yeah, you got to look at you got to resolve the
address, make a call to the make a call to the Ellen URL layer on
top of the node, ask for an invoice for the amount you're
going to send, wait for the invoice to be generated, then do
and then pay the invoice. So you have to ask the receiving party
to give you an invoice before you before you can send the
payment. So
Adam Curry: I saw on the namespace discussion, which I
tried to stay away from because it's really bad for my health.
Just anything, GitHub is like, I want to be there. And I saw
there was quite a discussion about Ellen, Ellen URL PE and
the this, this kind of flows into Phase seven, so we might as
well get ready to talk about that. I saw Roy chiming in there
was all kinds of discussion about how to handle the well
known address.
Dave Jones: No way. Did this happen. This must have happened
yesterday.
Adam Curry: I don't know. I mean, I might have been looking
at something from from two months ago for all I know, let
me see. namespace. Let me just take a look.
Dave Jones: Because I love to comment in there about can we
get some confirmation of Yep. Okay. I see. I missed the
replies. Okay.
Adam Curry: See,
Dave Jones: I had logged in a comment about in order to have
the lightning address in there. We need I just wanted
confirmation of how apps we're going to handle paying through
the lightning address or the keys and address using using
Alby I just wondered if Okay, cannot tell, cannot tell
applications that are going to like cast ematic that don't have
a back end server and depend on albies API cannot tell Franco
that he will now or in the future be able to rely on on
Albea to do the keys and address resolution rather than having to
do it on device.
Adam Curry: So what I what I read here is that Roy was saying
that the ln address spec should be extended to support multiple
send options. So this seems like we're going into a little
different realm that just something for the namespace for
our namespace.
Dave Jones: See, down
Adam Curry: at the bottom there.
Dave Jones: Well, yeah, so I missed all these replies. And
I'm gonna see in this for the first time,
Adam Curry: what you can parse that and immediately understand
and tell me what's going on. I'm so disciplined.
Dave Jones: Already immediately understand that the boomy from
lb says no, they're not going to do that. They're not
Adam Curry: going to do what? Address Resolution? Oh, so it
has to happen on the on the app on device on device, which is
bad?
Dave Jones: Well, you know, I mean, open to interpretation.
That means are we losing people here? I mean, do we need to have
a? Do we need to bring people up to what this means? Like?
Esoteric discussion where people are like, What the hell they
talk as opposed
Adam Curry: to everything else we do on this show? Okay.
Dave Jones: Fair enough. No, no? Okay.
Adam Curry: Yes, update us because it is part of Phase
seven. This is we are now entering the hot namespace talk
for and now it's time for some hot namespace talk. Do you want
to just take him in order? I think this is number one, isn't
it? Let me see what now you have an order here. Phase seven.
Phase seven of the namespace? The we see? Well, it's number
three on the list. But what since we're talking about it,
number three of phase seven for the namespace is key send
addressed.
Dave Jones: Okay. The value in the podcasts value block,
currently, where you define who's going to get paid. It
defines the spec defines a value recipient. And the value
recipient has a type. The only one available right now as a
type of note is the type node right?
Adam Curry: And then you can have as extra parameters the
special key and the secret code. Yes.
Dave Jones: So you can have the public so there you have the you
have the the node ID of the lightning address the lightning
node you're sending the money to and an optional custom key
custom value for routing if you're sending to a multiple
wallet node provider like Alby your fountain or right whoever.
Satoshi stream whatever so then, that's so essentially you have a
an address, which has a long hexadecimal, it's like a BEC 32
or whatever that code is, which is your note interest. That's
what is currently all that that's the way this all works.
There's no resolving that happens. You're just, you're
like, here's the note Id send it this mini SATs done. what's
being proposed is, is changing that to something to where
there's a name instead of a node ID. So that there's a resolution
step that has to have happen, you have to resolve the name
into its corresponding node ID. Right. And that's to, and that's
to make it where in the future if wallet providers like
fountain or Alby or whoever the Well, this was, just
Adam Curry: so we know this was a request from fountain and
Albie.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that yeah, Oscar, Oscar tossed the ball up,
and I'll be bouncing, you know, they, they've been bugged, kept,
kept kept in the air. So they, they both need this or, you
know, and understand the need, I think they're legit is a
legitimate need on their part, they do not want to go through
the pain of having to deprecate a node ID, because there's
potentially hundreds of feeds out there that have this that
are hard that people are hard to get in touch with. Makes perfect
sense, I get it. The the consequence, though, of doing
that is not a deal killer, it just means we all need to have
our eyes open. The consequence of doing that, as I've mentioned
before, is that now an app has to do the risk resolution. So if
you have a value block with 10 splits in it, now you have to
resolve potentially 10 Different add in different API, HTTP calls
before you can even start paying. And
Adam Curry: so just, I'm just gonna make it simple because I'm
the dummy. That means there's a Adam at fountain and.fm, and
it's an AC HTTP call would better be HTTPS, otherwise,
Google would get angry. Oh, it will be Yeah. And so Oh, there's
nothing can go wrong, expiring certs. And then that basically
resolves to a text file that said, that gives the information
as previously mentioned, node ID and the custom key and the cost
of the routing information. That's basically what's in that
text file. Or, or it's an Ellen URL PE, thing. That's, that's
the key difference there. No, that's not there. Okay. The
Ellen
Dave Jones: URL has nothing to do with this. Okay, this has
nothing to do with this. Okay. Got it. And that was confusion
at the beginning, because we're the proposed name for this was L
and your LP TA for the address resolution, but that it was a
misnomer. That million euro has nothing to do with Okay, got it.
So we moved we got past that. And, you know, the, the issue
here is, the ACA thinks the thing I don't like about it. And
again, none of these are deal killers. I still I want to make
put this in the spec, I think it is a good idea. And I'm nervous
about introducing HTTP, to what is to what is not necessarily an
HTTP based
Adam Curry: thing. Because right now, all all the apps have to do
is talk to the API and say, here's, here's the split
addresses, go at it. And now there will be an extra step that
has to be put in, which is the resolution, correct? Right.
Dave Jones: Okay. So imagine this is this is a little bit
this concern of mine is obscured by the fact that most all the
apps use Alby or fountain uses a different provider. But consider
a an app like breeze. Now, I know this doesn't necessarily
apply to breeze because Roy is okay with this. He's okay with
Ellen URL and these kinds of things. He's going to make that
work. But what I'm saying is consider a an app like that,
where it speaks lightning natively. And you can so what
you have is a lightning address. Excuse me, what you have is a
node ID for the receiving payment. And you have an app
that can speak lightning natively. And so that is a that
is a not a lightning native transaction from start to
finish. Now, what you've done is you've introduced an address
that has to be reserved oft. So what was a pure lightning?
Native transaction from soup to nuts is now interrupted with an
HTTP transaction? In order to get the lightning address that
you need to finish the lightning transaction, right?
Adam Curry: So it really goes from something that was very
elegant to the two, okay, do we cache these? Do we, you know, it
adds overhead, it can fail,
Dave Jones: the caching would be critical, because you really
don't like you can't, most most apps do not want the overhead of
having to make potentially 10 or 20, even address resolution
lookups, every minute that they're going to make, they're
going to be sending payments. Okay, we
Adam Curry: know this for a fact. I'm just paying, playing
devil's advocate, because what do I know?
Dave Jones: Yeah, like caching is absolutely going to be net
necessary that for some period of time, and it's, you know, it.
Yeah. For sat streaming? Yeah, for the streaming per minute
stuff, you're, you're just gonna have to cash the address. And
like I say, it's not, I mean, it's none of this is like, the
end of the world. But there's some sort of purity problem I
have with this where, you know, and I'll get over it, believe
me, but there's just a there's something, you know, it's, it
just doesn't feel as clean to me, because I've never really
liked the whole Ellen URL thing to begin with. Because I just, I
don't think there's, it's like we use we bring HTTP in to solve
a bunch of problems that are that might, I don't know, it's
sort of like a band aid, we stick on top of things. And, and
I'm just not crazy about that. I guess the reason I've been him
hauling around and not really and haven't pulled the trigger
yet, is two reasons. One is I don't, I need a story to tell.
To add developers like, like Franco, like okay, Franco here,
you're gonna start seeing these come through, you're gonna, once
this goes into the spec, you're gonna start seeing lightning
addresses, keys and addresses come through. And here's how
you're gonna have to handle it. So there are, I mean, people are
gonna have to make changes to their apps across the board. I
mean, and so that's, it's my, it's easy to propose this bag,
but then I'm the one that has to tell the story to the developers
when they say, Okay, what is this?
Adam Curry: So let me ask you a question. Why? Why? Doesn't seem
like you said Bhumi had answered that Why does an owl be want to
do that? Why don't they want to do the resolution? Because of
the overhead? I'm just presuming it.
Dave Jones: But he says, I think we should not rely on wallet
payment providers to implement parts of the spec. And you
should be independent, but
Adam Curry: they're the ones requesting it.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think
like this will, this will happen? I mean, I'm probably
just just do it. I mean, like, it's not, we've been waiting
around too long already. And it just needs a small utility of
this. We need.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I do too. And believe me, and even though I
have plenty of my own nodes, I also hook stuff up to Albie, no
doubt about it. But I'm also prepared to immediately switch
that, if which I don't think most of these apps could even
do. I would happily switch that to my own node, which Yeah, no,
I think I can do it through the lb. Extension, maybe I don't
know. But my fear is I just don't want to lock us into
boxes. That if if lb goes away, then what then we have to create
wallets that if it's wallet side, then none of the wallets
will be in your mind node won't be able to do that at home. So
something will have to be built.
Dave Jones: Will the current the current the where the proposal
currently stands now, in I think it's I think we'll probably just
go with this. I mean, like, you know, maybe I don't know, maybe
even this week, some is that you have the key send address in
there. And then you also have the node ID. And if you can't
resolve the case and address you just fall back to the node ID
and pay make the payment like you always have, or attempt it
as you always have. That seems like the best compromise I can
think of. You know, basically it just allows for an extra to
attribute in the value recipient tag, which is a key send
address. And the keys, if you see the key sender address in
your app supports that feature. You've built the code that does
the caching and the resolution and everything within look it
up, do a lookup. I wish there was some way to do this natively
within the Lightning Network, where we wouldn't have to jump
to HTTP. That's really what I'm that's really what I'm after.
And I just don't know that it's a thing that can be done. I wish
there was a native name resolution that can happen that
was native to lightning. I just, just
Adam Curry: well, for sure. I think the one thing we kind of
need is some more app developers in this particular thread. We
need to hear from them. No, I don't. I don't see a single app
developer except Roy chiming in on this thread.
Dave Jones: But no, there was a Franco's chimed in. Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Adam Curry: Yeah. What Franco say no problem. He's
Dave Jones: nice that I don't want to do it.
Adam Curry: Okay. I mean,
Dave Jones: which is, you know, which is understandable, you
know. So, it's understandable,
Adam Curry: but I don't want to break things. I don't want to I
don't want apps to fall fall down. Because, you know, we
implement something that someone said up front, I don't want to
do it. Well,
Dave Jones: no, I mean, I think he's saying he doesn't want to
be forced to do all the lookups on device. But if we have this
as if we have the fallback as the you know.
Adam Curry: Yeah. But I don't have that meant, that doesn't
make it. I mean, yeah, if we have the fallback. Sure. But,
but that fall back, people are going to be putting their their
keys and addresses in their feeds, and they're not going to
fall back just going to be oh, here's a, here's your address.
This is what Alby says you are and you use this, well, they're
Dave Jones: gonna fail on some apps, I mean, they'll they'll
have to know that if they're not, if they're not following
the spec, then they're gonna have, they're gonna fail on some
apps. So essentially, the way the way the spec, the way the
spec proposal is now is basically is the key is that key
send, there's basically that the value recipient thing does not
change, everything that's required is still required, you
just have a fallback of being able to do a resolution if
paying to the node fails. So it's basically just like turning
to
Adam Curry: enter two values. Now you have to enter, you don't
have to,
Dave Jones: you can, okay, desert that you can enter a
lightning address. Okay. And some providers will do that, you
know, if then. So like, imagine, this is a this is easier to
understand if you imagine a future scenario like this
fountain changes their node. So now all of the the podcast or
wallets that are hosted on fountain, they now have to
change their node address in their feed.
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's why that's being done. For the
value. Yeah,
Dave Jones: right for the value recipient. So in that scenario,
if they if those things, if those podcasts or wallets in
their value recipient tags in their fees, also had a fountain
keys and address defined, then, when apps tried to send a
payment to the to the node ID and it failed, meaning the node
disappeared and went away. They could then attempt the address
lookup to find what the new node ID is. Okay. So,
Adam Curry: yeah, I gotcha. I gotcha. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Yes, I think I think this is not something that I
think we're, wait a minute, there's no sticking points. And
Adam Curry: so that that actually sounds maybe I just
want to play back what I thought I think I heard you say, because
you could also make it and this might be the easier way. So I
sign up with get lb get lb gives me a node ID and the routing
information that that information pair. And they also
give me Adam at get albea.com. And then I would say, look up
the node ID first the app just says oh node ID, okay, boom, if
it fails, then do a quick lookup and see is it the correct node
ID? Yes. So instead of lookup always lookup if fail.
Dave Jones: Does that okay?
Adam Curry: So instead of always do the lookup, which is based
the main problem people like to look up if the payment fails,
which could be for a number of reasons, but if the payment Then
fails, then do a look up on the name to see if the node ID is
still correct. Yes, that's exactly right. That Okay, that
seems like a reasonable solution. I mean, it's not
great. People still have to have to add stuff to their app. But
that may be a kind of a good compromise. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I don't see anything that's gonna keep us from doing.
Yeah.
Adam Curry: Well, I want people arguing in the GitHub, that's a
lot more fun. There's not enough arguing people haven't called
anyone Hitler yet. So we got to get to that point people before
we can make a decision. Yeah.
Dave Jones: We've only had one one person called a prick in the
last 72 hours. So this, we're, we're below
Adam Curry: arable. We kind of step it up people.
Dave Jones: Yeah, we're way below quota. That's reasonable.
That I just, I'm glad you brought my attention this
because I have not checked this morning, man. I tossed that that
comment in there yesterday. And there's a flurry of activity. So
I need to catch up with what's being proposed because there's
some kind of new like, format, so yeah, okay. But I think we're
good. I think we can do that as we'll figure
Adam Curry: that out. All right, good. Next point. Let's go back
to the beginning of phase seven. Alright, come on. Come on. We
haven't done a proper namespace chat. And you said, Here's face
seven the plan.
Dave Jones: Okay. It's my fault.
Adam Curry: It's your fault. I mean, unless you want me to
bitch about Sam Sathya can do that for a minute. If you want a
little interim.
Dave Jones: What is that in the namespace? I
Adam Curry: didn't say it's not it. No, it's not. But we'll get
to that. cebiche about Sam city and No, you didn't do your
homework. You didn't listen to the the weekly review of
knotless now okay, which apparently is number one on good
pots. It's the best podcast ever. Yeah. Don't worry, Sam,
for another glass of wine. I'm coming back to you, brother.
publish, publish your medium and feeds. Okay. But all right, what
is that? I forget?
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, that's this is the this is
the thing that where you have the public, you know, you have a
publisher feed that defines children feeds. So, you know, I
might use your metaphor, you would have an overall no agenda.
You know, you're not like an Adam curry. Publisher, no agent,
you know, yeah. Adam curry is the publisher feed. And then you
would define no agenda, podcasting. 2.0 my FX career in
the keeper always child fades, and then those child feeds would
have a link back to the publisher feeds so that you have
a double confirmation. Now,
Adam Curry: do we have anyone any example of this being
created? Who is creating these? Is there so is there a host that
is creating these?
Dave Jones: Who I don't know about hosts? Maybe dovie Das?
Adam Curry: Because what was our kind of unwritten rule one host
two apps?
Dave Jones: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, we've got I mean, that on
that part, I don't think that'll be a problem. I think we'll have
two or three hosts in two or three apps immediately. Yeah.
Adam Curry: And this is more for music. Right. So this is
something we'd want we would hope wave leg would implement.
Yeah,
Dave Jones: Adobe does proposed is when Nathan say so that mean,
he's obviously going to do it. And Steven bass probably already
done it. Okay. So but it seems like it's probably already
ready. Done it. Right.
Adam Curry: So it seems like for music, this is really great for
music. I mean, for me, it's like yeah, I don't necessarily need
to have a publisher feed. But I can see this for it for music
makes a lot of sense. I can see.
Dave Jones: I mean, it's yeah, for music for sure. That's
that's the slam dunk. But I can see that. I think you might want
to do it more than you think. Because it's it's really good.
For it's really good for discovery, like in a true way.
Because now, now you're not just saying. So we've got this, these
attempts at Discovery.
Adam Curry: They were waiting for pod roll to show up.
Dave Jones: We got we got tons of pod roll. Yeah, but
Adam Curry: what apps are surfacing them?
Dave Jones: ln URL, I mean, eskimi ln beats? Ellen beats
this is pulling pod rolls, right?
Unknown: I think I don't know.
Dave Jones: But bus bus browse show in pod rolls all over the
place. Oh, no. But the true fans is shown pod
Adam Curry: rolls. No, I but no other apps that I use have. I'm
waiting for an app that I use to say, Oh, here's a couple other
here's some recommendations from this podcast. I know people are
publishing I mean, I'm publishing cross app comments.
There's lots of stuff that's being published. I'm just I'm
just wondering if the apps if any apps are showing it
Dave Jones: if they are have not gotten feedback, okay,
Adam Curry: well, and I'm a big believer in is is a no yes. I'm
a big believer in publish first. And then you know that
information eventually an app might want to implement that. So
just a reminder that we have these things that people can put
into their UI and the UX and make cool stuff is, when you
say, discovery, that's when I just go, Oh, really? Well, I'm
not discovering anything yet. Because the apps I use, don't
show me the pod roles. Or
Dave Jones: the pod roles, not in the API. But there is, but I
do publish it. Because it's a little bit there's something
Okay, so there's some things like pod roll, that are a little
awkward to publish as an API, they don't really feel API ish.
Because it's just a big long list of like, it's, it's almost
like a it's almost like a database, you know what I mean?
Like, it's just a big humongous list of things. That changes all
the time in a minute. It's, it's not like your I don't know, it
just doesn't it seems odd to publish as an API response to
what I do with luck, things like that. It's almost like it's like
the stats. But the stats thing, I don't publish that necessarily
an API. Just I just publish those to a to an object storage
location with a URL. So you can just ping the URL every so
often, and get the new updated stats, and you can get the new
updated pod rolls. And you can get the new updated value for
value music chart. And just a lot of stuff like that this
digit doesn't feel very API like. So that's, so those things
are out there. If anybody, let me see if I need to make those.
You know, here's an issue. I need to make the locations of
some of these things because we publish tons of stuff at
different URLs, like undocumented stuff. Yeah. And
it's just I'm like, Hey, here's this thing. Here's where it's
gonna be. And it's just, it's just a toot. Okay.
Adam Curry: That's documentation. Its timeline.
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's like, here's it, here it is. And
that's not really sufficient. So we probably need some sort of
dedicated resource that shows where these non API locations
are. So people know. Okay,
Adam Curry: so. So pod roll is not in the API.
Dave Jones: Pod rolls, not in the API, but we are publishing
aggregated pod roll data that anybody can use in their app
Adam Curry: aggregated. Right, right, right. Okay.
Dave Jones: Yeah, because we went, we went through it.
Adam Curry: Was it not only risky? I don't even remember
where it is. Right. But does it not make sense to add pod roll
to the API? If you really want to do discovery? So you know,
apps that are using the API can say, Oh, here's some data, let
me find a place to put that. Well,
Dave Jones: it should probably be put in the API documentation,
even if it's not in the API itself. Because really, you
know, I mean, these locations, these object storage locations
is they're still part of, it's still the services we offer. And
so it kind of should be all discoverable through the same,
like, would call through the same like channel, which is the
API documentation.
Adam Curry: Right. But there's nothing to document because we
don't have it yet. Now we got it. We have aggregate we don't
have do we have individual? So viral? If I Yeah. So if I ping,
if I asked the API for the feed information from podcasts and
2.0. At no point does the API return the pod roll that I've
put in there?
Dave Jones: I don't think I don't think it does yet.
Adam Curry: Okay. Well, then that would explain why most
people aren't used aren't aren't adding that. Yes.
Dave Jones: This this. This is gonna sound crazy. But I lose
track of what I do. No,
Adam Curry: that doesn't sound crazy at all. Not not No, no, it
doesn't. No, I seriously, I love you, brother. I'm just, you
know, you know why I'm here. I'm here. I'm here for the chicks.
Dave Jones: Chicks. So there's so many so
Adam Curry: No, I'm just saying that, you know, week so we
return cross app comments in the API, right, we return the route
post. Yeah. Okay. So just like that when we have a feature,
which is something that's in the feed, which is the pod roll. In
order for that discovery mechanism to crank up I think we
need to add that to the information. The API spits back
when a when an app says give me the latest. Then it needs to be
able to see Oh, pod roll. Okay, I'm seeing all because, yeah,
Buzzsprout has tons of pod rolls in their feeds. But and the
aggregated feed which I should probably look at the That's I
don't know, if there's a if only JSON, I'm not going to be
looking at it. But if there's no looking at the aggregated stuff
is nice. But for true discovery, very similar to this feature to
the publisher. It has to be coming from the API. So the app
developers can put that into their UI. I guess that's Is
that, am I assuming correctly? Yeah.
Dave Jones: It's a wish I knew whether I'd already put this if
Adam Curry: it doesn't matter whether you put it in or not. Do
we agree it should be in the API? So that that that's
something that can be used? Yeah.
Dave Jones: For Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I agree for
sure. Yeah. Let me actually, I can probably check, see me log
in here. I can probably add, I can pry x. And then
Adam Curry: of course, you know, credo would have to document it,
etc. Obviously, all that stuff comes in. And I'm just, I love
these features. You know, and people can always do a look up
on the feed. But I think, you know, you look at probably the
majority of the apps are relying on the API. And, you know,
here's some great data that we should add. Does
Dave Jones: this says Steven Crowder saves me from myself?
Because I'll put something in and he'll be like, Hey, I'm not
documenting this. Yes. Be it because of x y&z Okay. Yeah.
Yes, thank you. I'm trying to find a fee that I know has a pod
robust cast. I know they have a plateau.
Adam Curry: So I get this all stems from you said is great for
discovery. And then that just triggered me in to say, I'm not
discovering anything. And I'm not just I'm not even
discovering my own my own pod role. Which I have a pod role on
this show and no agenda on carrying the keeper. Yeah, I put
the pod. We've got one. Yeah, yeah, we got pod roll, a pod
row.
Dave Jones: See, okay, well, then I can check our feet then.
On 20666, you know, by heart? Oh, yeah. And no agenda is 415.
Before. There is no pod role being returned in the API. So
that is a negative.
Adam Curry: All right, but there's one. Let me just let me
just make sure I'm not full of crap here. I'll show info pod
roll. Yes, I believe you do media show pod news, weekly
review. Look at this discovery.
Dave Jones: You just discovered, what are you blame? I know,
Adam Curry: it's in my publishing app. Of course.
That's where I discovered the stuff I put in there. It works
perfectly.
Dave Jones: It's called View Source.
Adam Curry: Yes, View Source.
Dave Jones: Notepad.
Adam Curry: Okay, so I think everyone agrees everyone likes
the publisher.
Dave Jones: Nobody complained about it
Adam Curry: now. But it will be great to have these things
obviously in the in the API. That just makes sense.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. When the publisher stuff goes down? Well,
yeah, well, for sure. Like, if we'll fish this, this will be
like a big circular karate chop. We'll just do all this. You
know, we'll pod roll publisher, we'll just Yeah, okay.
Adam Curry: All right. All right, good. Then authorization,
which used to be known as an effing email address in your
feed. Okay. So now we have podcast verify ownership. What
is this?
Dave Jones: This is this is a mostly developed spec that never
got views dished. You never got proof of concept, proof of
concept ID. So, basically, I think where we're at with this
one is we just need to, I start I got halfway through Oh, more
than halfway like 75% of the way through, building a proof of
concept. book after I had a long conversation with Tom Rossi one
day as he drove down the coast of Florida. And we hashed this,
Adam Curry: we were you playing Barry Manilow on the radio and
while you were having this little chat,
Dave Jones: Mandy? No. So we, we hashed it out. And then I had to
wait. We had a way forward. Because he's the one that
proposed like the spec and the discussion thread. It's kind of
a mess, but but we did get us get sort of a consensus out of
it. And then I got about 75% of the way through this proof of
concept where I was going to bake this into podcast or
wallet. I don't know I got really excited about that
wallet. And so the it's it's like almost finished in there.
But as you need to get back and finish it So I can find and make
the podcast or wallet. The proof of concept for the authorization
spec, then we're good. We're good.
Adam Curry: And is this worth explaining how that
authorization will work? Is that what is what is the workflow?
No,
Dave Jones: I forgot. Just get really. But it's there's some
details that I'm not prepared to discuss. Because the it's
basically it's not. You just have it's like a handshake.
You're you're passing a token back and forth. To just prove
that you are who you are. You are who you say you are. That
will like when I get off of the API bridge,
Adam Curry: yeah, that's got you. That's got you're pretty
pretty engaged. So just to
Dave Jones: talk about that, too. Yeah, no, I
Adam Curry: have it on the list. I have it on the list. But I
just wanted to mention on true fans.fm, I go to podcasting to
point out, I go to the recommendations tab, and there's
my pod roll.
Dave Jones: So what No,
Adam Curry: and Gordon's TRUE fans.fm TRUE fans, the SAM Sethi
platform, and and I go to the to our show podcasting to porno,
um, there's a tab episodes, which is default. And there's
one recommendations, I click on recommendations. And there are
the four shows that I have in the pod roll. That's discovery.
That's exactly now Sam is pulling that from the feed.
Yeah. Right. So for apps that don't pull from the feed, that's
great. I love this. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
That's discovery.
Dave Jones: No, it's easier than view source. It's a little
prettier, which also works, but it's a longer process. Yeah.
Adam Curry: So that's cool. But and, yeah, I'd love for apps to
have that for sure. For sure.
Dave Jones: Yeah, so So authorization. I think we're,
that's the thing with phase seven. There's a lot of stuff in
here that we've
Adam Curry: we've talked about, we've talked about a lot of
these. Yeah,
Dave Jones: like these are things that are like half half
or more than halfway baked already. And we're gonna have a
get Alex coming on the show next week to discuss categories so
that we can get like music genres and these kinds of
things. So this is in this is a thing that we've we've hashed
out a lot. We've also got the content links back to discuss
I'm gonna think I'm gonna grab an eighth and have him on the
show if we can figure out a good time for him. So what can I ask
content when I asked
Adam Curry: you things about phase seven before we before we
move on? Yeah, sure. So chat. Now because chat, as far as I
know, there's one or two apps that just take the IRC version,
but the O'Casey there's XMPP is in there. Okay, so So there,
there are, this is pretty well fleshed out it just no one has
really implemented an XMPP chat as far as I know. Yeah,
Dave Jones: that's another Yeah. Chats. Another one. That's like,
I mean, it's like, at least 75% done. I mean, it's not isn't a
it's not, you know, like you can you can put a toothpick in that
thing, and there's nothing sticking to it. It's almost
ready. Okay. So I think a lot of phase seven is gonna go when
it's gonna go fast. When we get to that point where we start,
you know, pulling the trigger on things. Okay.
Adam Curry: All right. And then the other one was, I saw a large
discussion about categories.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to talk about
categories. And I don't want to talk about content link. Because
Content link is not in
Adam Curry: phase seven is no. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Oh, it is. I
didn't see it. Maybe I'm not I don't see it in line. Now. It's
not in phase seven. Please. No, there it is. No, I see.
Dave Jones: You're right. Wait, it's not? Yes, it is. Yes. It
is. No, it's not. Okay. Yeah, let's, yeah, I think I think
it's not in there. Because I worked on everything last night.
I think it was not in there because a read. By the time I
got finished reading through all the comments, I had new less
than when I started.
Adam Curry: All right category seems to still be up in the air
about I guess the main the main discussion is predetermined or
not.
Dave Jones: Right. And I think I think what everybody, everybody
who has a real interest in this, I think wants it to be not.
Yeah, they want these things to be freeform.
Adam Curry: Right. And if I recall from our discussion, we'd
like that because when you take it to the bridge, and you look
at Activity pub. The hashtags are not predetermined, but
they're searchable. There's a whole universe of them already.
There's an infrastructure that accepts the concept of, although
you could argue whether it's a category or a topic, I think
that's probably something we could argue forever. But that
was kind of the idea, right?
Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. So the idea was that if you the
problem, the problem with the category with categories as they
stand right now, like I said, I want to get too deep into this.
But the problem with with them is they haven't asked some
there's a there's a secret counsel, you have to go to to
petition to get new categories. Right. That's always a problem.
Yeah. And then we don't want to, we don't want to just recreate
that same problem, you know, we want this thing to function as,
yeah. Like activity pub does where, you know, things.
Consensus builds naturally around a hashtag. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Which is what the whole world kind of has moved
towards his hashtags.
Dave Jones: Yeah, even. Even email, like Gmail has just
labels.
Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. There's the late Yeah,
precisely. All right. I'm sorry. I thought you wanted to talk
about namespace. It sounds like I made you uncomfortable.
Dave Jones: No, no, no, that's not at all. It's just there was
the stuff we did talk about. I think it was good to talk about
the other stuff. I think it's too complicated. They, like each
one of those really needs its own, like full show. Oh, boy.
Okay, you know, because because the whole show, categories, like
we need, we need Alex on here, because he's gonna He's, he's
always coming
Adam Curry: right through the month route. We got him at the
end of the month, coming next week. Okay, so that's the end of
the month. went fast and went real fast. All right, let's talk
about the Fed suffocation, because that's what you've been
working on. That's where your head's at. I mean, I know it, I
see it. You've been doing you were doing so many tests that I
zoned out. I'm like, I don't know what to test. I don't know
what's working. Just I'll stay away. And I could only make it
worse by jumping in and saying something.
Dave Jones: Yes, the the, the latest that we that I put in
was? Well, what I did last night was I made some changes to add
deep links to the apps. So now, when a new episode post comes
through, oh,
Adam Curry: that's what that was. Oh, okay. Yeah, no. And
that's why you asked if the apps could make Mastodon profiles.
Dave Jones: Or somebody Yeah, somebody else was among humans
now.
Adam Curry: Even B or Chad F or one of those dudes
Dave Jones: chat F Yeah. So that's thanks to Nathan's long
list of of deep link URL spec. On GitHub, I was able to put
that in there. The deep linking to episodes directly is a
complete mess. And most most apps use some sort of internal
ID as the way to do that for the episode why they don't use an
episode guid at, I don't know, some sort of hash of the, of the
feed URL plus the good. I mean, it just seems a little odd to me
that there's so many that you use platform dependent
identifiers, but whatever. Okay,
Adam Curry: so, so I'm just looking here Okay, so, where's
the podcasting? 2.0 Did we get a live thing hold on podcasting?
2.0 Let me just take a look at the Nerdist podcasting 2.0 It
has now we didn't get a live item
Dave Jones: that must be something that broke
Adam Curry: so the idea is that in that in that post from that
podcast is 9206668 PETA podcast index.org That would have deep
links to the podcast apps that's going to be loaded
Dave Jones: Yeah, look at look at the one from pod News Daily
this morning. The post that came through because that has an also
there's image excuse me episode image art in there and not just
feed in image art. Oh, nice. Okay, album art. Let me signal
No, wait, that's
Adam Curry: not the right one. That's
Dave Jones: not there we go. I just sent it to you through
signal. Look at that and you'll see what it looks like. Okay.
Oh, yes, LPP just posted it.
Adam Curry: Nice. Yeah. That looks cool. Yeah, so that's very
cool. Okay,
Dave Jones: it's got lots of links to each of the individual.
What I did was put in links to 2.0 apps, open source apps, and
apps that we have a relationship with. So like, even though
overcast is not a 2.0 app when Marco donates to the show, and
he's supportive of what we're doing so we've got put them at
the bottom
you know, Pocket Casts we've had, you know, we've got a
decent relationship with those guys, even though they're not
doing a whole lot yet. So we, we've, so that's, that's in
there. And then if you just fall back, you can just fall back to
you know, listening to the enclosure in the browser. At the
bottom at the at the very bottom, so
Adam Curry: Yeah, listen, that's the listen. Yeah.
Dave Jones: So that's, that's where that's the latest thing
that that I've added. But we had a bunch of stuff this midweek
and I kind of wanted to delve into this for a second because
the developer is His name is his handle is silver pill, he
develops the activity pub software written in Rust called
Mitra,
Adam Curry: I follow it.
Dave Jones: Super helpful dude helped a lot with getting stuff
working. Because we were not the bridge was failing to he was
trying to follow from Maitre a podcast, it just wasn't working.
And it ended up being two different things and ended up
being a signature validation bug on his side, and a and a type A
D serialization problem on the on my side. And, you know, so
we've, we hashed it out over a few days and got it got it
working. But you know, it, it made me start thinking about a
lot of things with the bridge, in my original intent going into
this week was, and when I got it half way built, was to start
recording a reply, you know, like, noting replies, so did you
so we record the replies that happen, so that we can give the
replies back so people use these as route posts.
Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly.
Dave Jones: The and I think I'm, I think I'm backing out of that
step put up, put out the orange cones back. Okay. And so the A
think so, there's a, there's a bunch of stuff going on here. I
mean, number one, and not to be discounted as what you what's
going on with no gender social. There's, you know, I think the
activity pub fediverse world is going is seeing the need to go
more towards much smaller instances Totally agree. People
need to have more, either see, they need to have and or more
ownership over their own presence, or their own profile.
And smaller tribes is, it's these, these, these monumentally
large instances, I think, are more, they're causing more
problems than they solve. And so there's the potential and then,
you know, I'm already thinking in this way. And then Spurlock
throws in this thing, and I'm talking about replies and
getting this stuff to work. And he says, he said something to
the effect of you know, the thing where the brain like,
where you begin to get it with with activity Pub is the when
you realize everything is local. Primary primarily everything is
local first, then things get federated out between instances.
And you know, and my reply to that was you know, that's the
issue with the with the activity pub bread with the with the
podcast index, AP bridge is that there is there's nothing as
local. I mean, there is no you don't have nothing gets, there's
no even there's not even a sense of local if
Adam Curry: I if I follow it on my my instance, SIOP shop.com
Then it's just it's in the inbox. They're on my machine.
Dave Jones: Right? Yeah, you got Have you got the post delivered
to you? And there's never like the pot, the different podcast
actors on the bridge, they don't talk to each other. Right?
There's nothing local about it. Everything is remote. These are
just pod, these are just posts that are getting delivered to
the instances where where the people live. Yeah. So in that
sense, that's kind of a great position to be in really,
because what's happening is the episodes are getting, let's just
talk call these posts episode, the episode posts are getting
delivered to all the instances. And then the instances the
people on the instance can do whatever they want with them.
It's now it now becomes up to the individual tribe to react
and deal with that post whichever way they want. And so
like if you have a post, if you have a an A instance, and
activitypub instance, with a whole bunch of people who are,
you know, a whole bunch of people who are anti anti climate
change, or climate change, advocate AdvoCare and I know
what deniers No, not the opposite of deniers, confirm
errs climate change.
Adam Curry: Wait, hold on. Let me let me short let me shortcut
maybe, let me see if I understand this. What you're
saying is it makes more sense that if podcasting next out
social, publishes an episode, and then I'm subscribing to that
on my own instance, then people responding to that to that quote
unquote route post that those responses are primarily for them
for that local instance. And there may be a whole different
set of conversations going on on Mastodon dot social on that same
episode, essentially.
Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So So yeah, that's
interesting as Michael Michael Shellenberger who's on who's on
a podcast as a guest, that podcast in you have somebody on
climate accelerationist dot social, who follows that podcast
and you have somebody on climate deniers does social he follows
that podcast? And so that
Adam Curry: that's two different common threads? Yeah, that
Dave Jones: are not even related to one like they don't interact.
Why? Whereas if we sort of bridge the gap between him start
recording all these all these replies and giving them back,
all we're doing is becoming the the flashpoint for for for crowd
for Yeah, for problematic. So, garbage.
Adam Curry: I'm with you here. Okay. So okay, I'm not quite
sure how the where the how, what the what route posts I put into
my feed, that's kind of irrelevant for the moment. But
okay, so you have two distinct different instances, Mastodon
instances, just just making an amp Neo Pleroma doesn't matter.
So the acceleration is they have their thread. And then so one
person, I guess whoever subscribe, someone subscribe to
that podcast on their on mastodon.so. The deceleration is
thread. And they comment. Is there ever a moment where those
comments can crossover? Or does that mean that someone has to
comment from the deceleration is on the acceleration thread?
Dave Jones: If the only time there would be a crossover is if
somebody was intentionally mentioned, if somebody's handle
so if somebody from the climate? I think I
Adam Curry: think this is the most genius thing I've ever
heard. And I'll tell you why. This is exactly why tick tock is
successful. Tick tock is successful because their
algorithm bundles people who are in agreement instead of what X
does, which is throw in people who disagree and create activity
of people fighting. I like this a lot. Because now you you can
have two different conversations in quote unquote, tribes. You
can always tag somebody and then you can you can bring the you
can bring stuff in. But I think it will be much more successful
in the way you just described it. That's really mind blowing.
Dave Jones: Yes, I think by default, if we if we do not
track replies and return them as part of the poster as part of
the post request, we don't then we don't become we Never we do
not get involved in the moderation cycle at all. Right?
We don't actually contain any of this content. And there's no,
there's by default, no cross pollination between these
different tribes, unless they intend, but I think
Adam Curry: that's, that is genius. Because it removes so
much of the problem. The hostility, oh, yeah, you just
gonna get that, I mean, just gonna get tons of it, then you
can still create that if you know people do that anyway,
cross instance, I mean, hello, milk, milk made dot dot post or
dot club, whatever, you didn't even know what they don't want
to know. But, you know, so people can still, you know, can
still have that true cross community comment thread, but
they don't have to. I think that's really interesting. Now,
I don't know how podcasters will feel about that. I personally, I
love it, you know, I probably won't even be able to know what
people are saying somewhere else.
Dave Jones: Well, here's, here's how it would look, in practical
terms for a podcaster who's, who's doing something like this
with cross app comments, he was employing this with cross out
comments. There, they make a they, they make a post to their,
to their instance. So they're going to be, you know, they're
going to be in control of this and make a post to their local
instance. And they follow the, their own podcast on their
activity pub bridge. So then they they set that as the route
post on their episode. And now their, their copy of their copy
of that episode is now the route post. So now everything, they're
their income, they become the owner in effect of everything,
of everything, everything that's attached to that. So you are
attached to the AP bridge. Now. It's right there instance.
Adam Curry: So I'll see everything in my instance.
Dave Jones: Right. And you can moderate everything to because
you're there. It's your
Adam Curry: it's my instance. Right. Oh, interesting. Yeah,
Dave Jones: that everything is local thing was just an offhand
comment. It by bus Burleigh. But it really does. It's, it's the
answered to the way all of this needs to happen. Because
Adam Curry: the answer to the question that's been on my mind.
Dave Jones: Yeah, so you can't? Yeah, I think that's I think
that's the way we need to go. I think I'm just gonna bail out of
of applause. I think I don't think we need to be involved in
but
Adam Curry: this is this is actually, almost by definition,
this also solves the solves everything this solves all the
problems we had with cross app comments. Granted, it's, it's
quote unquote, limited to activity pub. But I think
activity Pub is one of the most important technologies, cross
application technologies that has ever been developed in my
lifetime.
Dave Jones: A fully agree and I think if we if we do things
right, I think that RSS and a to me RSS and activity pub, or
native bedfellows, I think they are complementary to one
another. And I think that we can sort of glue these things
together in a way that's pretty kick ass.
Adam Curry: Man, I love it. I'm sure
Dave Jones: that because because you met imagine, so what, here's
because the next step, the next step beyond this is, you know,
is putting things into your feed that you want to be expressed in
activity pub. So the feed is the source of truth, that activity
pub bridge will just express the truth things that are in your
feed. Yeah. To in a way that makes sense to activity pub. So
if you have, like, for instance, we there's a, in the, in the
social interact tag, you have that, that notion of a user
account, you know, where it's like, you know, what's your user
account? Well, that that can pass through, right? And now you
get now you get mentioned in there, or you become like when
it's like okay, you now you're the owner of this feed and
you're in that's being expressed, so now you could do a
rel equals me. Yes.
Adam Curry: Your site, your ownership right there. Oh, man,
this
Dave Jones: ownership. You know, I
Adam Curry: think the kids call this based.
Dave Jones: Is this. This is that's what the kids are saying
it is this. AP is based Hey,
Adam Curry: you want it take a little breather and play a song
you did say you missed that on the last show so
Dave Jones: yeah brought love the song.
Adam Curry: Yes this is a new a new hotshot on the scene is it's
a yet again a young woman in the in the arena of Ainsley Costello
and she's
Dave Jones: skipping all the issues skipping all the bases no
this
Adam Curry: is not the skipping all the bases girl this is Abby
Muir and mu IR. She's from Sweden Sweden, and the song
starts off right away so I will kick it in just a minute if
you're listening on the split kit you can boost if this thing
and curio caster and what does I think just fountain and podcast
guru they do live boosts now as well with value time split thank
you thanks so this is the song aptly titled Stockholm
Unknown: to do that for me I was so stuck just tell me love me
came to play Amina was your
calling you
your screen things are saying and I'm over my head in time
that I spent but again you could live with your
alpha
gold
Gold
Adam Curry: Now tell me that song didn't open up
Dave Jones: that's a recipe
Adam Curry: she reminds me Taylor She reminds me of it was
the chicks name Dora remember Dora think she was German Dora
she had kind of those songs would just start off like a
Dave Jones: backhand just bait you in and get your backhand
Adam Curry: exactly exactly your Stockholm yeah everybody and
that will of course hit the podcast index dot top chart what
are we up to?
Dave Jones: isn't on the chart yet?
Adam Curry: Let me see we are today 129 With the top 2020 29
Oh April in the Wolfers top of the chart today. Look at like
Stockholm is number six. Okay,
Dave Jones: we'll just drag that one up. Yeah. La sugar.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I played la sugar. I played la sugar the
other day. And Marina Earth is also very cool. This I love the
wow I can't believe Wind man got some plays.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's excess pretty red 111 booth. Yeah,
that's
Adam Curry: for events, events, events, events, events events.
Very cool. Very, very cool there the value versus alive and
kicking people alive and kicking out
Dave Jones: now available on breeze
Adam Curry: saw that Andrew grommets? PWA was boosting?
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. I don't think people. Can you explain
who Andrew Gromit is because there was confusion. There was
confusion, Sam and James did not know who he was,
Adam Curry: Oh, my God, Andrew, but they should have Andrew
Grumman on their show. Andrew Grumman was one of the first
guys to show up when I started daily source code and put out
the the apple script. And he came in and I think he was part
of the iPod or lemon group. And they were building that. And
that was a Windows app. And Andrew was, you know, I kind of
a lead developer. I mean, I don't It's so fuzzy. For me, I
don't really remember. But Andrew was such an important
part that when I started pod show, he was employee number
one. And brought him in and we did a lot of fun stuff together.
The Andrew is a great guy, and kind of you know, we we check in
from time to time and kind of lost track of him, then all of a
sudden he shows up. And he's interested in progressive web
apps. And so he's been building a whole progressive web app
system. He's a guy that I'm telling you, partners weekly
review. May I suggest Andrew grommet as a great guy to have
on for little before the a piece of the podcast history that has
been poorly told.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. Good. And he, and he was around, I
remember him, because he also bounced around a little bit with
the Dave Winer circles and that kind of thing. And I remember
him from that I met him later. Just through, you know, chats
and stuff like that, but I didn't realize that he had been
with you and Pasha. Yeah,
Adam Curry: yeah, he was the first guy hired. I'm pretty sure
he was number one. Yep.
Dave Jones: Let me say one more thing about the bridge, check it
to the bridge. The so the way the formatting looks right now.
On the posts, if anybody would like to tackle making that look
better, because clearly, I mean, as I've said, 1000 times I'm not
a designer, I don't know how to do very good at this. If you
want to, if you if you can, if you can take because there's
formatting issues here like title and description that gets
truncated and there's just, it's just kind of messy. And I would
make I would like to make it look good.
Adam Curry: Is there a place they can do a PR?
Dave Jones: Well, yeah, you could, you could do wouldn't be
a really, you'd have to know Russ to do PR, but you could do
so
Adam Curry: problem. I know. Ross. Oh, that's right. That's
Dave Jones: right. You're good. You're
Adam Curry: dead man now. Okay.
Dave Jones: All right. So you just send your changes to Adam
how to do a PR on the reef. And But yeah, if you if you send it
as like an issue or something like that in the in the bridge
repo, just what it Yeah, just make it look good. And then
because there's a limit of what happens, there's a limited set
of of HTML that Mastodon supports. So if you take as a
boy, whatever comes out of the show notes has to be sort of
like morphed into this acceptable HTML in a way that
doesn't.
Adam Curry: Oh, that's gross. That's always tough with the
beef. Right? Yeah. That's always difficult to make that look.
That's one of the main problems all the all the websites have,
like pod page, I think struggles with that all the time. How do I
take what someone just jacked into their feed and make it
usable?
Dave Jones: Yeah. And when it's coming out of freedom
controller, it's being mailed right? In that HTML.
Adam Curry: It's beautiful. It's beautiful.
Dave Jones: chop and drop. I mean, so like, and I know, one
thing I know about designers, web designers, is they love to
show their chops. So why not throw it out there and say, hey,
if somebody wants to make this look good, everybody's like, Oh,
yeah, yeah, the revenue hands.
Adam Curry: I just wanted to bring one quick thing up because
on pod news, weekly review, Sam Sethi had what was going to be a
rant and then it turned into a tisk tisk. So British thing, and
he had kind of a backwards way of promoting the idea of
activity streams. Which, I mean, it actually made me go back and
look again at the activity stream spec or from the activity
streams working group. And he really seems to want this. But
the way he brought it was kind of odd. because he said he hates
the idea of which is I'm gonna just on the opposite opposite
side of this, of people adding services with a split in the
value block. And which was interesting because he accused
me of having 25 splits, which I don't I think my max is 10. But
it came from what Spurlock is doing with Opie three. And I'm
not doing so Sam wants it to be activity streams that's shared
with everybody. And I don't know, I mean, maybe I'm just
misunderstanding activity streams and seems like it's
something all the apps would have to implement it what I love
so much about the value block is I can add a service in there.
It's like it's I called the API for podcasters. I'm an idiot. I
have no idea what how an API works. I mean, obviously, I'm a
rust expert, but I don't know how, you know, API's? Oh, auth,
all that stuff. If I just want to add a service where, okay, so
it's, it shows up and fountain Fountain has a way of surfacing
booster grams, I add the boost bot. Now, I don't see it unless
there's some problem with adding splits that way. I mean, to me,
it's the way the whole system is supposed to work. I'm just like,
Spurlock gets paid for a service that I enjoy having. Now, the,
in fact, when I send it to fountain, it goes to my own
account, I think or whatever, I bet it doesn't even matter. I
want everybody I want to share, I want to share in all of the
all of the value. And it just seemed I just want to make sure
that I'm on the right track here. I love the idea of adding
services and things that come along with a split in the value
box, because it's literally a way for me to pay for a service
no matter what it is. And with activity streams, I just don't
see how that how you can have that value. Someone has to run a
server somewhere. And then surface activity streams that
show me I don't know what I've done. I don't know this. I love
I love what's happening here. Am I on the wrong track? Am I
seeing this the wrong way?
Dave Jones: I don't I don't notice this. I didn't hear it.
I'm not sure. What. Yeah, I don't know how to frame. I don't
know what the framing is, you know,
Adam Curry: that's what was weird. I think he I think he
wants to promote activity streams. But he was doing it by
saying it's dumb to use splits for this. It is great to use
splits for this
Dave Jones: was my mind show. Why? Because you get him on the
show. Let's
Adam Curry: get him on that he wants to be on the show. We
should get him on the show.
Dave Jones: Let's get him on the show and hash it out. Because we
maybe there's something maybe there's something we're missing.
I mean, at I guess the only thing I can think of that would
be a downside to the split thing as a way to enable an API. Is
that sort of you're kind of limited to the sort of minimum
you can do so I mean, like, you can't really go. It's hard to go
below 1%. I guess for some shows that could end up being your
sort of overpaying? I don't know.
Adam Curry: No, it wasn't about that. But he just felt it's not
a smart way to use the value block. And I'm like, that's
exactly what it's for.
Dave Jones: Oh, Nathan says the other factor he brought up is
listener permission to share that data. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I
guess I could see. Well, as you're sort of passing through
to
Adam Curry: no one or no one seems to have complained about,
you know, booster gram showing up on fountain. People seem to
see it as a feature. I think we're I think we're beyond that.
Yeah, I don't I don't see. I mean, it's really anonymous. To
me really is no
Dave Jones: way there's no RPS or any.
Adam Curry: I mean, that's that's, I mean, that's another
beauty of it. But no, I don't know, I think that we'll get him
on the show with us. Definitely get him on the show. Because and
I just must say, I love the new. I mean, now I go to OP three
like now I have a reason to take a look at this stuff. Yeah, I
don't care about how many people are or know accessing.
Impression ng downloading, listening, whatever, I don't
really don't care. Also, there was there was I think it was
something beautiful that happened the other day, when,
you know, I stream I stream my SATs to to all the podcasts and
I listened to pod news pod news every single day and I don't
think I skipped a single one. And yes, sometimes when I hear
the music change bumpers, you're probably like, okay, here comes
the ad and I'm done. But I may have my gloves on. I'm outside
and so And then I heard James had some copy about Hindenburg
and I'm a Hindenburg, customer, Hindenburg Pro. And there was
you know, and we were talking about the big knob and I lived
in the UK, I get the joke. And so I boosted I'm like, Hey, I'm
boosting for the big knob. And he sent that to the to his
advertiser. And the advertiser loved it, me. And they posted
on, I said, post that on Twitter, you know, I'll retweet
that. So it was kind of a fun crossover, where boosting, I
think, made enhanced, so the value for value enhanced, a
podcast that is inherently value for value and sponsored. So I
think we've just been talking about that advertiser also over
there. Yeah, you know, and I think that I happily sent my
money to James and whoever that goes to, but also to give
feedback on the ad. And that can be really can be really good.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's, I think that's great. I mean, this
this, I think, I think people have to just become comfortable
with the fact that and when I say people, I mean, podcasters.
Think podcasters had to become comfortable with sort of opening
things up a little bit. I think things of this has been an issue
in the in the podcast world forever. Is that everybody's
super secretive. Nobody wants anybody to know their stuff. You
know, I mean, like, I mean, Chad F literally, you know, does our
books in the open on the you know, like, you know, on
Mastodon Yeah, we
Adam Curry: were gonna discuss that this show. I had that as a
to do item and we didn't. But here we are. Here we are. We're
discussing it now. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I mean, that's, that's the thing is you, when
you, when you sort of embrace me, no, but when you when you
embrace this idea that things are open. And you don't try to
be secretive about things and you let you let your audience
pass through to your sponsors or so to you know, or your
sponsors. I mean, like, I think everybody is just like
everybody, the world we live in now is just kind of suspicious.
And rightly so. Because you're you have, did you see the EU
thing with Margaret with the new Microsoft Outlook? No, no. Now,
this is not the this is not outlook.com. This is the desktop
installed version of Outlook. In the EU, now, they have to have a
disclosure about third party tracking. And there's a pop up
that happens on the desktop version of Outlook. A pop up
comes up and says Microsoft and 737/3 parties are based are
scraping your data for the advert for ad tracking. It's
based on that email 100.
Adam Curry: Oh, Outlook has to so outlook is disclosing that
they're tracking.
Dave Jones: Yes, they have to disclose to third parties
they're tracking in the 100. Yeah, it was it was it was like
737 different ad trackers. Search give me third parties.
Let me see if I can find this because it was That's insane.
This is the new version. Like I said, this is not
Adam Curry: where's this the rock? Did throt do an article on
this? He
Dave Jones: did? Yeah. Okay, here it is. Okay, I've got
screenshots,
Adam Curry: 172/3 parties process data, to store and or
access information on your device development. You're
paying for this products?
Dave Jones: Yes, you're installing a thing that you're
paying for through Office 365 subscription. That's crazy. It
says by clicking the All button you agree to the use of these
technologies and processing of your data for these purposes.
Yet, so many people
Adam Curry: think that anyone has a problem with their booster
gram.
Dave Jones: Right? This is why I'm saying becoming comfortable
becoming as a podcaster becoming more open and becoming a lot
more transparent. It just makes everybody more confident in who
you are and your character. When you can show that you're not
that you're not hiding anything. That's crazy. So then if you
have an ethic, it builds your legitimacy with your spa with it
makes people trust your if you're advertising based or
sponsorship based, I think that lens makes people even more
comfortable when you're when you're more open. Because
anything advertising based is just so inherently skeptical
these days.
Adam Curry: I mean, I can tell you from experience with no
agenda, you know from time to time, there's going to be
someone that shows up and says you're pretending that You're
poor and you're not okay? Because you know we have a very
blatant ask or like date, you want the show to keep going, you
got to support it. We also call everybody a producer. And we and
we we also credit people for other things time and talent,
not the treasure part. And from time to time, amazing wonder if
it's still around. There was a website, no agenda numbers.com
Let me see some guy went to the trouble of doing that. Too bad.
It's gone. And you know, and and this, this guy would count the
numbers and publish spreadsheets and look at all this cash.
They're making these people suck. A you know what, nobody
cared? Nobody cared. There was always care. No, no one nobody
cared. In the beginning. I like the kind of kind of weird but
nobody cared. Nobody is ever cared. They like and you know,
and people who care who thinks that's a problem, they don't
support it, that's fine. That's the that's the whole beauty of
it. It still is, hey, it took five, six years before. I mean,
I want to quit no agenda, Episode 100. I'm like,
literally, we had a good run, John, let's quit this thing. I'm
done.
Dave Jones: What, I've got this weird idea that if you if you
really love a podcast, you want you don't want the podcaster to
be struggling and barely scraping by every every episode.
You want them to see that it is worth their time. And it's a
rewarding experience financially for them. Or else, they're not
going to stick with it. If you really want it, you don't want
that you want the podcaster to be rewarded as much as you as
much as possible. And you know, like, for like us on with this
project. We said from the very beginning where this is all
about our the donations we receive, especially the PayPal
donations we receive on this show is all about building a war
chest because this there is people come and go in there is
going to be a time when donations are going to drop down
to nothing.
Adam Curry: And we're or when we die.
Dave Jones: One of those two, what's going
Adam Curry: to happen eventually,
Dave Jones: we in perfect example, a a $500 a month donor
this month, cancel their student canceled their donation. Oh, so
we did not wait. Yes, and we did not miss a beat because we have
saved all of that money, it costs us typically about $1,300
a month have to run everything that we run. And so that's we
just we just ditched the ln pay notes. So that saves us 450 a
month. So that that 500 that dropped off is going to is okay
we can we can eat it. And it
Adam Curry: might might add that you and I personally pay taxes
over the money that comes in even though we don't pay
ourselves.
Dave Jones: We do this because it cost me three grand last
because
Adam Curry: it costs money. We're not crying, but that
that's just how it works. You know, that's just what it is.
And we're happy. We're fine with that.
Dave Jones: And I'm scared of what is going to be this year.
But um, I'm hoping I did my math right? It's
Adam Curry: gonna be $500 less per month, that's for sure. If
Dave Jones: if under less so you know, because we're about to
have to do this. We're about to have to get my brother in law to
do our taxes for the LLC. And he and
Adam Curry: he doesn't work for every nice family member you got
there? No.
Dave Jones: Nobody, nobody. Nobody works for Nobody, not
even family. Except us. That because because we have what
what I've always wanted and you concur is to have at least five
years of cushion built up to where you have the donations
dropped to zero. Yeah, we could keep on truckin and not miss a
day for five years. Yeah, because we made a promise. And
in order to keep the promise, we have to have enough, just flat
out cash to pay the bills. So that's and we're on track. We're
not there yet. We can I think last time I checked, we could
run for about 18 months. Yeah, yeah. Two years, roughly in that
timeframe.
Adam Curry: And all the stats stay on the node. And if you
need liquidity, let us know now, but happy to open up a nice fat
channel to you.
Dave Jones: But um, I'm totally cool with Chad F doing that. I
think it's great because it it shows. It shows I mean, it's
pretty accurate. I mean, that's his math is pretty spot on as
far as I can think he is. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, I think
it's great. I think I think just this, this sort of like spirit
of openness. I think I think the podcast industry as a whole
would benefit from that there's way too much secrecy and going
on. So Debt stats and everything is just oh, that's falling
apart. It is it is,
Adam Curry: you know, like, they never really needed the IAB. The
advertisers aren't stupid. They have spreadsheets they know who
know whose numbers are what and they discounted. Your numbers or
X, Y or Z. I know what they are. So the IAB is just a farce.
Dave Jones: Yeah, basically it is.
Adam Curry: Let's thank a few people. I'm going to thank the
people who came in with live booths pod home 30,000 SATs.
Thanks, brother. Very nice. The Dutch guys up late. Sam Sethi.
10,000 SATs glad to hear that REL equals me is now part of the
conversation activity streams will be soon I hope we need to
discuss this smiley face. Yes, we will. We'll have you on Sam.
Blueberry. 7777 Please send good vibes decided on top of
everything going on right now that this was the weekend to get
a freedom controller going?
Dave Jones: No, you good luck.
Adam Curry: Brother. Okay. All right. Well,
Dave Jones: you're on you're on my prayer list. Yes.
Adam Curry: Top of the prayer list, blueberry. Dred Scott
4567. Don't cross the streams. Lol. Chad F with 333 This is the
TIC tock model keep the tribes separate. Yes, exactly. He came
up with the same conclusion I did. Another 4567 from Dred
Scott says pew pew pew pew pew another 4567 Sass from Dred
Scott testing que pues not hearing them on the live stream
Yeah. What I opened up the pew pew pew pew and then he comes in
with 45,678 Dred Scott going crazy says don't get your finger
stuck in your nostril bridge go podcasting. I will get you got
it. Blueberry with a long, long note here sent on pod verse
333 33. I'm fairly confident by the end of tonight I'll have a
lighting fixture that will shine when a boost comes in. Of course
I love this course picked up a sick little USB to DMX box from
my computer been salivating at the idea of making a big ass led
neon sign that is pixel mappable for the best music 2.0 homegrown
hits homegrown hits as the absolute tits jacked follow that
sweet homegrown flavor it would be set to build them a giant
lighted sign that changes effects based off of booster
mounts. Dude, I want one of those. I'll buy one when I want
one in my studio. I just want that pew pew I want to change
with the numbers whatever I love that idea. Was
Dave Jones: DMX is it what is that?
Adam Curry: I don't know. Okay. Oh, I think DMX is a lighting
protocol. It's like
Dave Jones: okay, like to control RGB stuff. Yeah, I
Adam Curry: don't know if it's RGB but it's DJs use it to
control lighting rigs, I think. Okay. Yeah, it's kind of like
MIDI MIDI for for lighting lights. Yeah. Let me see what
else we have here. I'm scrolling through a lot of a lot of
different boosts here. No, I hit the limiter. So that's it for
the live boosts and you're up.
Dave Jones: We've got we've 01 off papers this week. Good work.
Everybody goes apropos to the discussion we
Adam Curry: There you go. Thank God we have a little kitty.
Dave Jones: That's right. That dip into the pot James Crillon
satchel Richards through fountain he says wait a sec.
Those activity pub postings mean that every podcast can get
crosstab comments if there isn't even a social interact then just
use the posting that's correct James Yeah, the red and it's
tribal
Adam Curry: that yes, that mean when I saw that I went Oh, holy
crap. That is very smart.
Dave Jones: That up in 96 was a lot of things actually. That'd
be 1984 4000 SATs through fancy says last 10% listener boost.
Oh, he made it past the 90% mark. Thank you. I'll be mere
mortals podcast as everybody Kyron 2223 foundations will know
$30 million marketer but I would like to claim the V for V
consultant title. Courtney finally just released our Convo
on podcast bestie recorded six months ago
Unknown: yes
Dave Jones: I didn't talk about V for V music much would be
great to stream boost that episode to give her a taste of
authentic peer to peer real time no dodgy statistic feedback.
Adam Curry: So we so we got to stream that episode by the way.
I just got 2000 from from Barry from pod home he says it seems
you still have me in the splits. That's a mistake. Probably
right. Yep. It was. may enjoy a bonus. Bonus. bonus for you
brother bonus. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Kudos to Barry for saying that because he could
have just remained silent. He may. He may have stayed in there
for weeks.
Adam Curry: No, that's the next guest would have changed that
but yeah, that was my mistake
Dave Jones: History podcast bestie let's see. Oh, here it
is. Yeah, okay, I'm downloading that right now. I got to see
what else we got here we got 1701 Oh, that's Mike Dale's
gotta be Yep. Mike now through cast Matic he says hi from the
snow globe of Michigan well hello from the freezer of
Birmingham Alabama.
Adam Curry: Yeah chilly in the hill country.
Dave Jones: Balderdash boy is 33 333 through fountain he says
thank you for all your help and all the great info weekly go
podcasting sir west of beer bourbon and molar.
Adam Curry: Yeah, those guys are cool.
Dave Jones: Yeah, good guys. Sir Brown of London 21 948 through
cast magic is is remember what I'm aleck Google Facebook Apple
did to you.
Adam Curry: Always Always bring what does that noise?
Dave Jones: And Emma like that's the Jewish Yeah, the
Adam Curry: the enemy. Family. Enemies. Yes, we got it.
Dave Jones: Thank you, Brian. Unite Gomez 3219 through pod
versus boosting from the Basque Country. Now what is Basque?
Basque? That's
Adam Curry: in Spain. Boom. So the Basque Country. Your
Dave Jones: name? You're near Albert Alberto. I guess from
maurices.com. Give me Give a shout good lunch.
Adam Curry: Very, very first sentence and 10,000 SATs back to
us. Didn't have to do that. And to do that.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Go buy a beer. source D send a 1701. As our
buddy Archie says only a technician don't think I can get
on 20. Get on 20 in. Say
Adam Curry: again? Oh, 20 meters?
Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay.
Adam Curry: No is the tech wait as a technician? You can? I
think you know, the 120 meters. But yet, you may not be able to
do I forget this a ham radio talk? I'm not sure exactly
anymore. But you can look it up. But I think you can go on 20
meters, but not like at some others you can't go on. But you
want to get general just go for general, you could
Dave Jones: do it. How big is a 20 meter antenna is pretty big,
Adam Curry: right? Well, a full length antenna will be 20
meters. 60 feet. Yeah, that's huge. But I have an n fed Zeplin
antenna, which is just a wire as an end fed zip baby, a wire
would that transformer on one end. And it's about it's
probably about 20 feet, something like that. I mean, you
got I got an antenna tuner, you can take a clothes hanger. And
you know what the bet the coolest antenna is a loop
antenna. What does that so a loop antenna is literally a loop
of wire with a loop of wire inside of it. And I'm going to
have a big capacitor on the front and you tune the antenna
with that. And those things are amazing. You can have it inside
and you can reach all over the world. But it's very, I mean,
the minute you move to a different frequency, you have to
retune, it's very, very critical in the tuning. But loop antennas
have been you can go back in history, World War One and World
War Two. All the wars that they use them in the military loop
antennas are just amazing what they can do.
Dave Jones: So it's so it's a 20 meter antenna, but it just in
the loop.
Adam Curry: It's the loop can be pretty small. Look at chameleon
loop chameleon loop they sell and it's basically just a loop
wire with a loop on the inside and in a big box. And that box
has a huge capacitor. air gapped and you just tune it and you're
good to go.
Dave Jones: Because I think I think we I think I certified my
novice license on like to meter.
Adam Curry: Well, novice doesn't exist anymore. Right? Yeah, that
mean this is back in? Yeah. Two meter. Just Yeah. Two meter just
on the handheld stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Jones: That means 60 feet. That's your whole backyard.
Yeah,
Adam Curry: but maybe you don't you don't need a full
wavelength. No one uses a four way link. Hit me up on Vare. See
everybody keto five alpha, Charlie, Charlie.
Dave Jones: We get oh, the delimiter Comstor blogger 4000
sets through fountain he says that he fell a bit corners Dave
and he's calling Asus fellow Bitcoiners that he's calling
himself a bit
Adam Curry: of Bitcoin. Okay. Well, welcome.
Dave Jones: Call Mr. Bhalla. Yes. Hello. How do you feel a
Bitcoiners David Adam, please invite your listeners to listen
to just two good old boys podcast at WWW dot just two good
ol boys.com. Join Ben and Jean in their thought provoking
podcast as they tackle a wide range of topics from the
complexities of politics and global events in 2024 to
personal anecdotes and technological musings. This
podcast offers a candid and unreservedly discussion. Yo CSB.
Do you think? Thanks Ben and James would describe their
podcast as a candid and unreserved discussion.
Adam Curry: Listen, comics. Your blogger does everything with
Chad TPT these days. He just he just said right to boost the
gram for this podcast and that's what Chad GPT did they give him
that? That's how he rolls. I'm telling you, I can see it I see
his post is all Chad GPT when he comes up with some like, this is
how I feel today. It's like a whole Chad GPT output You're not
fooling me
Dave Jones: CSBG PTS Are we sure CSB still exist
Adam Curry: no he auditory AI. He's just he's just become AI.
He does not exist anymore.
Dave Jones: He's been AFK for like a year and a half probably
at this point. And the other one I know we get a monthly
conflicts right? Got Paul Saltzman $22 2016 Thank you,
Paul. Daymond Cassie, Jack $15 Derek J. Vickery, the best name
in 2.0 is $21 Er and Rosenstein $1, Jeremy Garrett's $5, Michael
Hall, $5.50, and Trevor at zener out of Australia $5. And that's
our group.
Adam Curry: What a good group a good looking group. Also, thank
you very much for supporting this value for value projects
and podcast. If you'd like to learn more about value for
value, go to value number four value dot info. And to support
this value for value, podcasts and project go to podcast
index.org Scroll down to the bottom there are two red donate
buttons. There's one for your Fiat fund coupons. That's the
Pay Pal which we of course, accept and we appreciate that.
The other one is for tally coin for all you fellow Bitcoiners
who never give us on chain coin, but I still check it and still
nothing since the 27th of October 2023 What we really want
you to do is go to podcast apps.com Modern podcast apps.com
new podcast apps.com Nude podcast apps.com and grab a new
podcast that almost all of them now do value for value in some
form of another. I think it's I'm seeing 16 different apps
now. I think 16 Maybe 17 What?
Dave Jones: Do them all do them all?
Adam Curry: Well, yeah, load up your wallet and send us some
boosts and a booster grant we'd love to read them we'd love to
thank you personally on the show and thank you for so much for
supporting podcasting 2.0 The whole kitten caboodle
Dave Jones: but we just had just got the live the podcast and tip
window live from the AP bridge eight minutes ago.
Adam Curry: Way to go all right. Hey, it works.
Dave Jones: We barely met we made it technically still like
you're considering
Adam Curry: I forgot to send it
Dave Jones: technically still love it, brother.
Adam Curry: What's coming up for this week for you over this
weekend. Anything I think from fun, you're hanging out with the
family just trying to stay warm. Trying
Dave Jones: to stay warm primarily got got Christmas,
celebrating Christmas with the in laws that we were not able to
do very late Christmas celebration. So yep.
Adam Curry: You have gifts.
Dave Jones: Yeah, we got gifts. We did have gifts. We're not
coming empty handed
Adam Curry: stuff that you that you got from somebody else. Like
I really don't want this. I think I'll give that to my in
laws. And this is probably
Dave Jones: the best the best habit. Because he just picks
through and just get you just get rid of all the stuff you
don't like. boardroom.
Adam Curry: Thank you very much for attending everybody there in
the chat. Thank you all so much. Thank you for all that you do.
This is a cast of hundreds who who really work on this project.
It's app developers, its allies, allies of the app developers.
It's podcasters it's not jobs. It's a crazy band. I love all of
you Dave my brother, thank you so much. And we'll be back next
Friday for a another board meeting of podcasting. 2.0 will
be here and I'll let you know when we're live and Lindsey then
everybody.
Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 to visit
podcast index.org. For more information,
Adam Curry: go podcast. I think the kids call this based