Adam Curry: Casting 2.0 for March 15 2024, episode 171
misaligned expectations always Friday once again Hello
everybody. Welcome to podcasting 2.0 This is where we take us
through a nice luxury stroll of everything that's going on in
podcasting, the past, the present the future, that now you
are welcome in the boardroom, the only boardroom that treats
stakeholders like the royalty that they are. I'm Adam curry
here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the
man who eats popcorn to carve up before every big life moment.
Say hello to the one and only podsafe my friend on the other
end Dave Jones.
Dave Jones: I don't know about every life moment. Yeah,
Adam Curry: no, no, no. Melissa, Melissa told me Melissa told me
all about it. Every life moment. Dave's hold hold on, baby. Hold
on, baby. I gotta I gotta get some popcorn. Gotta get ready.
Hold on meat meat. The beef milkshake. Hold on, baby. Hold
on. I'll be right there
Dave Jones: in hand, as we speak. The milkshake. Milkshake.
You got to balance your, your macros. Yeah, carbs and your
protein and all this stuff. Well, you can go all carbs are
all protein.
Adam Curry: It's been a very, very rough day for me.
Dave Jones: I can hear it in your voice. Yes, because I could
hear it as soon as I got on the stream.
Adam Curry: So not only has the new media show turned into the
AI, videos, podcasting show, oh,
Unknown: a week in AI this week, this week
Adam Curry: this week in AI and YouTube is a podcast. Come on,
guys, as they get carried away. They get carried away.
Dave Jones: That wouldn't. I'm shocked that that Todd and
Robert get carried away about something.
Adam Curry: And they're not fighting. Hey, bring back the
fights. Yeah,
Dave Jones: that's it. That's the best flame in each other.
This
Adam Curry: is no good. We need more flaming. Come on, dudes.
Come on. And then there was no no partners weekly review. Oh,
really? I love you. Really, less. I never really listened to
be honest about it. I'm so blase.
Dave Jones: I'm gonna I'm gonna Fess up. I have not listened to
last week's but news weekly. Oh, goodness. And I'm so behind on
podcasts. It's like, I mean, I kind of gave up,
Adam Curry: you're gonna, you're gonna have to do a clearing of
the cache. As
Dave Jones: it's it's so bad. It's a purge. It's so bad. My
cast Matic is like, it's boys overload. There's cracks forming
on the side. It's not some point. You just gotta like, you
know, it's kinda like your inbox, whether you have several
100 unread emails or not, you hit your control a delete,
Adam Curry: because it's good. Because if someone really needs
something to get back to you. Well, I
Dave Jones: mean, like you said before, I mean with with new
media show. I know they'll just talk about the same thing next
week. So don't have to worry about if I miss a show. Let's
take the shape show over.
Adam Curry: Let's catch up on the latest in AI. And actually,
you know, Todd had when he first started doing that, he talked
about this some podcast, was it it's a marketing podcast about
using AI and marketing. I'm like, oh, okay, I'll subscribe
to that machine. Pick a phone what it's called. And yeah, so
now I have a whole bunch of these shows like yeah I can't
handle too much
Dave Jones: putting drip Scott said last week he claimed
podcast bankruptcy and just deleted it.
Adam Curry: I liked it. You got to do it. You got to do it. Man.
I wonder what the what is the name of that show? I can't
remember now. But it's one of those like, you know, the the
it's the marketing AI show and it keeps popping up and like,
Nah, not today Satan and then like I have I have to start
unsubscribing from stuff I really do
Dave Jones: is the media roundtable was oh, no,
Adam Curry: no. And I haven't heard the latest media
roundtable and although it's always unclear, I only want to
listen to it when when when James is on I want to listen to
and I just want to hear when James and otherwise if it's a
real roundtable so often it's like, it's like a psych No, it's
just me with some other dude, some some professor of
podcasting. It's like now
Dave Jones: and I have to admit, I look at the titles of that
show. And swipe right a lot of times I'm like, delete. I'm like
I can't I can't I'm like can't handle you today.
Adam Curry: I know. I learned I learned an interesting thing.
This week. I know agenda. I promoted different modern
podcast app every every show. I'm now rotating so everyone
gets some love. And I think because you said cast thematic
so it did cast thematic the previous week. And then, you
know, like, I get an email from DeVore AK go, he likes, if
something doesn't work, he'll forward it to me. It's like it's
broken. Like tech, like tech was, yeah, of course, anything
to do with publishing the show or anything. And this is one of
the apps you promoted. And it's some guy, you know, saying, Hey,
I got no, I got the podcast app, as you told me. But he literally
had something called podcast app.
Unknown: Anything you ever recommend? Well,
Adam Curry: I say podcast apps.com, where you can find the
modern podcast app. So I thought podcast apps.com Would be great
URL, but it's somehow driven people to get the podcast app.
And I don't know what it is. But it had ads all over it. It had
ads all over it. Like doesn't work. It didn't get anything you
know, it's not updated. didn't update within 90 seconds. Like
you promise curry. Now,
Dave Jones: what are those podcast?
Adam Curry: I deleted all the mail. So I was so fresh. Oh,
podcast dot app. Oh, what? Oh, let me see.
Dave Jones: podcast app is for the curious. The number one most
downloaded podcast app. No, I bet only because it's called
podcasts.
Adam Curry: Let me see what it looks like. Well, it wasn't it
wasn't it wasn't a wasn't working. Because you know, the
one of the features I say is, hey, these monitor podcast apps,
the update within 90 seconds of me posting.
Dave Jones: And he said, I've downloaded the app and your show
is not there yet. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Yeah, it's no good. And then. And then John Ford
said to me, one of the apps you promoted is broken.
Dave Jones: This is not that I'm blaming, you know,
Adam Curry: this is how people think that's some some work. But
just learning podcast app. I'm
Dave Jones: trying to make sure that I'm wondering if if they
might be on the Apps page? No,
Adam Curry: I don't think so. Now I was looking at. And I've
also been promoted podcasting. to.org. And I went there the
other day. And so I just went there kind of objectively, it's
like, Okay, now let's just say I'm a dude listening to no
agenda, Adam says podcasting, I want to learn about this. And it
says, for audiences enjoy Richard listening and viewing
experiences, podcasts and 2.0, as you follow, engage, engage
with support and share podcasts more easily. And then it says,
find a better app. And then it just gives me a whole list. It
doesn't tell me. I mean, yeah, if you click on something, it
shows me all the features. But it's not. It's not telling me
what all these great apps do. And I know this is open source.
So I would, I would hope that someone writes a marketing there
that says, Here are the features that these apps do. They're here
they are listed, you can check out which one of the features
they support. But it doesn't say any of that.
Dave Jones: Or audiences find a better app. The icons are pretty
beautiful.
Adam Curry: And, and you know, Sam Sathi managed to get listed
first, I knew he would do that. He's very smart.
Dave Jones: He knows alphabetical sort of starts with
T know,
Adam Curry: it's by number of features supported, which is
which is actually an interesting way to do it. I'm cool. It's
just yeah. There's nothing that tells me as a as someone who's
new, okay, an alternative enclosure, booster grabbed it
doesn't tell me what that is.
Dave Jones: Cool to have, like us, like a description. Well, if
you can, like, you know, once you click
Adam Curry: on it, it goes to basically the namespace
description of that of that tag is not for not for mere mortals
sorry, current press, not for mere mortals
Dave Jones: will boost your benefits with this approach. So
anyway,
Adam Curry: so now that we have a great marketing site that I
Dave Jones: would encourage for AI, yes, right.
Adam Curry: I should be able to take that and then right
beautiful description. I mean, it can do I'm sure it can do 45
pages, like Target 45 pages of document documentation. Yeah.
Let's let's just let the AI loose on it. It'll be fixed in
no time. Well, I'm excited to write
Dave Jones: your HTML for you to do anything
Adam Curry: that's a great idea. So I got I got another one of
those. I think I sent you the link that start nine is now
supporting the open open llama lucky ticket ding dong. That's
my favorite model LLM the luck of DECA ding dong LLM. When I
inserted loaded it up, and, you know, first thing I do is put in
there to see if I still have it open. You know, tell me about
the value for value, the value for value model, and it starts
right away by telling me that this was developed by the World
Economic Forum like okay yeah, All right, good job boys
negative was like, oh, man, it's just not good for search. It's
just not good for search, commerce blog, post anything.
Dave Jones: I grabbed stable diffusion the other day, because
I was trying to have been playing around with the NVIDIA
local LLM. So I grabbed this table diffusion went and I was
like, Well, you know, maybe I'd like to mess around with a local
image LLM. And I'm just trying to get my, you know, get my feel
for how this stuff works. And it sucks. I mean, it's horrible. It
makes the worst images have ever seen. I'm sure there's some I'm
sure there's like 27 Different
Adam Curry: you're not doing it right.
Dave Jones: I'm holding it wrong. You're I mean, like it's
your
Adam Curry: it's awful. Your best said like, you're not a
good PJ. Prop jockey.
Dave Jones: Prom. As I was, I just gave us something simple.
Like, I want to draw a picture of a dog in a sitting in a field
of flowers or something like that. And it was like, complete
it looked like a some sort of alien creature in It was awful.
Yeah. Is this is not good tech. Well, I mean,
Adam Curry: okay, and we need to get off of this in just a
moment. But what you know, no agenda. We have no agenda art
generator.com. And we have 30,000 images for you know,
1600. And what are we at 16 for 1600 42 episodes. And we have
multiple artists always competing to create the album
art during the live show that we then use for that episode. And
ever since the AI our generators, it's been
increasingly hard to find something that's good. Because
people just you know, prompt jockey away. And yeah, okay,
it's, it's rendered pretty, but there's no humor, there's no
meal. It's like, there's nothing in there that makes it like oh,
that's a great piece of art. Oh, that's hilarious. Oh, you
understood how to how to portray this one thing we talked about.
It's just gotten bad. And even established artists who are
doing a lot of hand work, you know, they're now kind of
phoning it in. It's destroying creativity.
Dave Jones: That yeah, I don't the all the image Ella limbs,
they all have their own little flavor. In it's like they get
you can tell, really, almost immediately which one it came
from. You know, they. So you can say, Oh, well, that's mid
journey. Oh, that's a dolly. That's this. Because they all
just kind of see, I guess it's just the training set they use
and the optimizing that they do, they all tend to look the same.
Adam Curry: And for some reason, there's a reasonably large
contingent of people who want to make podcasting as boring as
possible to make the show notes all boring. Make your chapters
boring. Make your art boring. And oh, I can't wait to just
have aI generated voices so it's just all boring. Yeah, it's
gonna be great. This creativity comes from the Lord our Creator
people, not from an AI generator.
Dave Jones: Speaking to JCD hit that y'all got a story the other
day about a dog with a box on his head. My wife had there,
where she grew up in South in South East Tennessee. There was
a legendary dog named Jughead and Jughead got his head stuck
he ran away and got to get his head stuck in a milk jug or not
a milk jug of milk carton like some kind of rights like yes I'm
gonna milk no it's not it's like a it's like a milk container or
something. And it just he ran around with his head stuck in
that milk container for like a week.
Adam Curry: I'm happy to hear that you listened all the way to
the end to hear the good news story. This is very good. I like
that.
Dave Jones: No, I'm I listened. If I if I listened to an
episode, I usually finish it. And then And like with I was
talking with the own podcast indexer socialism earlier with
somebody about advertising and versus V for V and all this kind
of stuff. And I mean, I'm not anti advertising either. I
listen all the way through the ads. I try. I try not to skip
ads when I can. Even though I've got a download and I could and
nobody would know but I still just feel like I need to know
Adam Curry: if the ads are I like my hatless and pivot. I
listened to the ads on that because they're their products
that I probably won't buy and I always love listening to what's
the what's the company that owns the software versioning system.
Dave Jones: Software Version system, the
Adam Curry: one that got hacked, the China basically has all of
us want to look at it. So Atlassian Exactly. Atlassian and
they own a couple of products. One of them is the isn't the the
the versioning system the software?
Dave Jones: Yeah. What's that? Yeah, like? JIRA, maybe?
Adam Curry: JIRA. Yeah. Anyway, conflict Confluence. There you
go. Okay. And so Atlassian advertised on their podcast all
the time. With to me, you know, their technology show, they talk
about all kinds of cyber attacks, but never about the one
that involves their advertiser. Isn't that interesting?
Dave Jones: Yes. Curious.
Adam Curry: So that kind of stuff. bugs me. It's
interesting. You bring that up, because I was talking to some,
I've been doing a couple of interviews again, just to get
out there and get some more 2.0 noise in the marketplace where I
can tell you Yeah, Jesus in 2.0. Man, that's what I'm all about
these days. Okay. But yeah, it's combover of champions. And so
and, oh, what are we drinking?
Dave Jones: This is a look, this is a Lacroix, I'm clearly
speaking to JCD. Again, I'm clear on same. I know what I
know exactly what JCD drinks, what he drinks, when he drinks
it. It's whatever is the cheapest on sale that can be
delivered from Amazon. That's the algorithm, because I'm on
the same algorithm. Hashtag show beer. Exactly.
Adam Curry: So and I find myself, you know, talking about
RSS delivery. And just how it is the, the model for content
delivery of the future. And this also comes a little bit into I
talked again, to Zack from Indy hub, who is, you know, he's
definitely retooling is going to get RSS feeds. He understands
that he knows that he's a smart guy. And he's way ahead of the
curve, because he already understands he and he comes to
it from a Bitcoin perspective, so he understands lightning. He
also, you know, he looked at noster and he said, I see the
communities as but I don't see the delivery system, let's say
exactly. I said, and yeah, we have, you know, the apps are
there we go look at podcasting. to.org you may not understand
what the features are, but there are a whole bunch of them that
do it. And, and, you know, so he gets it. And so, you know, so
RSS, it really is the delivery mechanism. And right now, the
the monetization part, really value for value is what works.
It's scary. It takes you know, it's, it's, it's a there's an
onboarding process to you know, we would podcasters is one
thing. She has me podcast that a lot 1000s and 10s, of 1000s of
podcasters are now understanding value for value. Not all of them
certainly not all of them implemented correctly. But boy,
I mean, there's a couple of people who just run into the
bank with this and just go look at the at the fountain top 10
And then go listen to those shows listen to their ass listen
to their, their Thank you segment, how they do it this
week in Bitcoin, which is, you know, it is now the weekly web.
I look forward to it, you know, it's a good show. And I streamed
200 SATs a minute, and I boost them and he and he gets it. And
yes, it's Bitcoin. So that's going to be easier. But there's
all kinds of shows that are starting to use this very well,
not bringing artists over that hump. It's, it's really, I don't
think any artist gets it, what we're talking about when they
first sign up. And I think that wavelength knows how to talk to
artists. There's many other many other very good choices for them
right now. And, you know, I love what pod home and RSS blue.com
Yeah, really 2.0 native hosting companies that they're talking
to this contingent differently. But until someone sees sat
streaming into their wallet, that's when they go, Oh, wow,
what is this, it's that moment. And as soon as you know, it's,
it's a it's a heavy lift, it's a long lift. But once you see it,
and then once you can make that work within your, your budget of
your creation, there's a future there for you. And you know, you
just have to be honest, it's going to be 3% of the audience
will actually contribute but if you keep if you figured out how
to do the ask and, and and have that feedback loop, whichever
way you do it, I mean, look at the chosen, they raised, you
know, $10 million, I think for their for their, for their
second series. Now they're on their fourth series, and, you
know, they thank people by giving them trips to be on the
set and just all kinds of different, you know, gamifying
things that put in there. So it works with with Vidya with film
as well. So with the 14,000, independent filmmakers who
submit to the Sundance festival every year, they didn't all have
a million dollar budget. But the technology has gotten much
easier. So anyway, long story, to bring it around to my
favorite saying you cannot monetize the network. Because
ultimately, it's really about the content itself about what
that one, that one show or that one album or that one artist,
what, that's what you want. And the audience cares less and less
about sub network that is promising to give me more of the
same and better and etc, and promote stuff to me. And that's
what is now breaking down the streaming model, the streamers,
I'm talking at Paramount plus Disney plus Hulu, Netflix, this
new sports conglomerate, that's all your sports will now be
behind one big paywall on a streamer. And it's it's, it's
breaking people's minds, it was great in the beginning, because
you get that, oh, I can watch this whenever I want to watch
it. But the Wall Street Journal podcast did a, they had a
survey, they put in some of their own their own experiences
with streaming. And I pulled a couple of clips, just to
accentuate. I mean, they're using words that I love. And
some that just makes so much sense where you can start to see
that yeah, okay, you know, the US House of Cards, costs, you
know, maybe 30 $40 million to do a series. But that's House of
Cards. There's a lot of stuff out there that is just, it
doesn't have to necessarily be high overhead production. And if
you get enough people to look at it in a value for value model,
eventually we're going to find stuff that will work. So anyway,
this is kind of a story about the streaming companies, the
problems that we're running into. But listen to this, this
first clip. First,
Unknown: I want to talk about a relatively new trend you
reported on and that is consumers canceling their
streaming subscriptions. Does that have to do with the price
hikes we've seen introduced by a number of streaming services. So
you see customers starting to get to a point where their
streaming budget where they're realizing that it's approaching
what cable used to be or just starting to feel really
expensive and meaty. And so they're saying, What do I
actually need? What am I actually spending my time on.
And because those streamers have raised prices, they have kept
the simplicity of being able to easily turn them on and off. A
lot more consumers have gotten savvier about saying, You know
what, I'm going to binge this on Hulu, and then I'm going to turn
it off, or I'm going to binge this next season on Netflix. And
then I won't need it again for two months until this next show
comes out. So I think much savvier consumer has emerged and
also with inflation, and just the the rising cost of living
households are saying how much am I actually spending on
entertainment? And am I getting full value out of it? Oh,
Adam Curry: she used the V word. Oh,
Dave Jones: this this is exactly this is totally true. I've done
this. I did this exact thing. Yesterday, we watched what was
it? We watched a series on Netflix. I can't remember what
it was right now. Watch the series on Netflix last month.
And then we ended I noticed that Netflix had my card again.
Because we had we had not been subscribed to it for gosh,
almost a year. And then we renewed it to watch one show.
Can you can see. And then I can end and so I hit my card again.
And I was like, Oh, I forgot to cancel that. And so I just
cancelled it. I'm like, well, when something else comes out
that we really want to watch. I'll pay for one month of it.
We'll watch it and then we'll be done. I mean this and did the
same thing with Paramount plus. Basically what we've decided is
one, we will not have more than two streaming video things at
any one time. Oh,
Adam Curry: you will put yourself on a better streaming
budget. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Because if you don't, you'll end up with it's
worse than cable if you if you don't watch it. That's so we you
know, we we've kind of just kind of loosely said let's not let's
try not to have more than, you know, 2025 bucks or 30 bucks a
month because we cancelled our cable subscription. We had a
cable subscription we cancelled that in 2004 and we have not had
a cable subscription since then. So we were an early cord cutter.
This
Adam Curry: is very interesting because right away and this is
always to be expected NAMM post in the boardroom? Nas VPN Plex.
I like to pay for my content. None of those services offer you
even the opportunity to pay for the content even on a voluntary
basis. People say all the time hey man Get Plex give me my
account. It's all this cool stuff for free. And I always say
thank you really appreciate that. But I like to play pay for
my content. It's kind of a Karma thing with me. You know, it's
like I live by this, I don't want to die by this. So, you
know, I, I literally ask people to support me. And I give my
value out freely without any expectation that you have to
have no expectation. How about that for biblical one? Minute?
Dave Jones: Yeah, I feel kind of the same way. That's, that's
what it's Yeah, I feel very similar. Because we buy, we buy
a lot of stuff. And that's one reason why I want to keep my
streaming low, is because we just, I just outright buy
movies, and not necessarily the disk, but I'll just try them on
a stream or whatever. It's like, with all these musicals, we've
been watching, like, I've bought Phantom of the Opera the other
day, I mean, we just, we just pay for it, I'm, I'd rather
just, I'd rather just as I need it, it may end up actually being
costing me more per month. But this is this is the Now Phil, I
feel like the actual creator of the thing gets more money when I
do that.
Adam Curry: So it's now where to exact so we're talking about
reverse value for value here. You know, people are like, oh, I
want this series. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna subscribe to Netflix
for a month, and then I'm gonna cancel, that's not good for
Netflix, that's not good for their bottom line. They're not
making then I don't know what it is. But I'm sure they have to
have you for an X number of pay periods before you actually
start to pay off. And then long term, it's just it's not going
to work. And in fact, so there's my you can't monetize the
network, the network being the streaming service, because
people just want to have it. Like, I just want that one show.
And I'm going to unsubscribe, even the whole idea of all these
different apps is a problem
Unknown: there. I mean, services like Amazon Prime, for example,
you can access a couple of other streaming services from that
platform. Is there anyone right now trying to streamline the
streaming process? So maybe someone like Margo can watch
everything in one place? Yeah. So this is an interesting pain
point. In the streaming world, it remains really fragmented.
There are certainly companies like Amazon, YouTube, Apple to a
degree that are trying to become more of the gatekeepers. But
there are lots of reasons why certain streamers may not want
to do that they want to have their app alone be the
destination for streaming, to not have consumers start their
journey elsewhere. So this is really an unresolved issue. For
many, like the Smart TV screen is the best shot at a landing
page. But it's not terribly searchable. It's not really the
dream version of it,
Adam Curry: think, look at how far ahead, we are the head of
these guys, people you know, wherever you get your podcast is
powerful, it's powerful. And that means that you are using an
app that works the way you want it to. And in many cases, if it
doesn't work the way you want it to you can find the developer
and make a suggestion, I despise the autoplay of Netflix and Hulu
is doing it now sometimes to hate it. I'm always turning down
the volume. You know, if I want to preview out, click for a
preview, the autoplay is just this annoying. The search
doesn't work the same, everything is different. I'm
having to bend my mind around different streaming podcast
apps, if you will. And this is a problem. They're identifying
this very problem. But all we want to be gatekeepers. Well,
the audience that you're serving doesn't want it and that's why
they're, they're behaving the way they are. And then the third
and final clip, this one blew my mind, one of their listeners,
and this was not the only person who had this type of behavior.
This was very cool.
Unknown: So let's talk about how companies are responding to such
varied consumer behavior. Here's a really interesting example
from Sam Rotenberg, who isn't in it for the visuals,
Nathan G.: I tend to skew to shows that are more audibly
interesting. As I'm walking around the house, I find myself
listening to shows more often than I used to, instead of just
sitting there and watching them. So
Unknown: I think this is really interesting, because we're not
even talking about a consumer watching habit. We're talking
about listening. How do companies get a grasp on their
streaming company has on such a wide range of consumer behavior
and how we're not only seeing and viewing but listening to
Yeah, this is a real area of interest for them and
understanding when and how consumers are using their
service that it's not as obvious as I throw it up on my living
room TV screen. For some people, you know, increasingly I've
heard lately they listen to Netflix when they're going to
bed, that it's something that helps them fall asleep at night
for young people. There's often multiple screens involved in
multiple forms of entertainment happening at once. So really
under Understanding the way in which consumers are accessing
this is important for streamers to understand the utility of
their services and who is more likely to turn versus stay,
because the service has become part of their daily lives are
not separate
Adam Curry: the content from the playout experience people. It's
so painfully obvious, this
Dave Jones: is true, but I hadn't win. So this young guy
that works for me, I think he's 25. And I've learned so much
from this guy, like about Gen Z, in in their behaviors about
things. One thing I've one thing I've learned is it's tons of Gen
Z. Uses subtitles.
Adam Curry: The Oh, big time. Oh, yeah, this is this is I'm
using them now. And we did Yeah. Some research on that and no
agenda. Part of it is because of how sound is mixed these days. A
lot of this makes for theater for Dolby 5.1. The center
channel is often ignored for regular type of
Dave Jones: viewing, as muddy, wet, muddy,
Adam Curry: but also this has become because there's so much
multiple screens going on. It's become a crutch that Gen Z and
millennials and yeah, I'll even say Gen X has started to use, I
grew up with subtitles in the Netherlands. So it's very
comfortable for me. This is why I've always been we've been on
transcripts from day one. People really love this, even when
they're listening to something. It's a huge part of the
experience. The
Dave Jones: other thing it the other thing that he said was
that he does exactly what she mentioned, he falls asleep.
Yeah. Went to Netflix. And I'm like, How in the world can you
do it? This doesn't make any sense. Whereas
Adam Curry: lots of people fall asleep to a podcast. That's why
many podcasts apps have the sleep timer. And unfortunately,
even my wife sometimes it's you know, when I'm when I'm when I'm
traveling, I like to listen to you so I can fall asleep like
what this is. This is rude. She's
Dave Jones: gonna train herself. She's around
Adam Curry: Slovenia, and syphilis lethargy, this, I think
is what it's called. So my conclusion from this is a couple
of things. One, we're doing great people, we're doing great
to carry out carry, we got something special going on here,
too. I think that, that there's still so much room. For podcast
apps, you know, we have a very, I've said this, from the first
day we start out on this journey, we have a very set idea
of what a podcast app has to be. But everybody now kind of knows
that, you know, you've you've hopped around, you've tried a
couple, something works for you for some reason. And so I
encourage app developers to solicit feedback to continuously
because that is your customer. That's a whole nother
conversation we can have based on what's been going on this
week. That is your customer, that is who you are, who you're
satisfying. There's huge value in in what you do. And then I
think in order to move forward with the value for value model,
I think there's, this is gonna sound weird coming from me. But
I would almost want to have a flag in my feed that says, when
someone goes to play my podcast, I would like to app to pop up
something to remind them it's value for value, please consider
putting in a value per minute or per hour or whatever right now
before you continue. And then that's something app developers
are gonna have to think about themselves, because that may be
too intrusive, maybe that's not what they want for their
customers for their, for their users, which I just think are
customers. But there's something there's going to be some middle
ground that is needed to remind people. So for instance, podcast
guru, which I've been using a lot. I'll subscribe to a show.
And then I'll completely forget that I have to manually enable
the streaming sets per minute for each new show. And I'll be
you know, I'll be on the third time I'm like, Oh, crap, I
haven't streamed a single sat to the show.
Dave Jones: That that is definitely a UI thing. Because
cast ematic for a V for V Enable Show. It puts it right there in
front of you. It's not, it's not obtrusive, it's not intrusive.
Excuse me. It's not intrusive, but it is, but it's not as a
nice reminder and it doesn't get in the way but it's right there.
And it'll tell you, you know, you're out. You're out of SATs,
like you're,
Adam Curry: that's another thing. That's another thing I
really liked how fountain is doing it now. It's right there
this little counter going, it doesn't make me feel bad. In
fact, that makes me feel good for some reason. But I thought,
well, if you're showing how many sets you're sending might not
feel good, but I feel good. I feel good seeing that. Now, they
also have a counter on the other side, which says you're earning
back this much per minute, that and then. So these are UX things
that are happening that are that that need to be encouraged.
Don't just think you're there. Think about these people. There
are people coming who have thing who cannot get any, it cannot
steal position in these in the streamer apps. This is what
indie hubs dot studio has seen. And I told him as well, it's
like, it's not going to work. If everyone has to, you know, come
into one system, and has to set you know, has to pay a set fee
per minute they're watching, you need to make this open. And and
but you know, in his app is basically podcasts that he's
going to have all kinds of screens or you know, user
experiences that show, hey, this is what you're doing this is
this is how you can help. This is how you make the whole system
function, etc. It's all about moving beyond the podcast,
listener or watcher even who is used to adds to this new model.
It can't just be Oh, yeah, it also does value for value.
Consider doing more.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I think I see what you're what you're talking
about maybe the thing that underlies what it may be the
underlying thing of what people are misinterpreting as a quote,
move to video, you know, like that. There's these new sort of
listener behaviors that are happening. They're clear, I
mean, it's obvious there are new, there's new ways that
people are consuming media. I mean, that we can't deny that
across the board. But it's been interpreted in in ways because I
think there's just been some I mean, forgive me, but clumsy.
Recent market research has been done and ends up being like,
Well, yeah, I use YouTube in I searched for my podcasts on
YouTube and it's like it. I think maybe there's just not the
true message of what's happening is not really coming through.
Yeah, then you, but when you when you look at it, you see
these Okay, well, here's how these people are really
behaving. And then what is podcasting need to do? Well,
first of all, I mean, podcasting is perfectly positioned to take
advantage of any use case, because it is so flexible. Maybe
you can see I mean we've seen podcasting be morphed into mute
into a music streaming app with with like wave Lake and Ellen
beats me podcasting can it's just media delivered over an RSS
feed it is so flexible you can layer any UI any experience over
the top of it that's the whole point of podcasting two point of
the whole point. Hey, so
Adam Curry: I have a new name. What did you you said it's just
media over an RSS RSS feed. So instead of Nasir it's morph
Dave Jones: what media over an arson yeah
Adam Curry: more more more
Dave Jones: we can we get can we get bitcoin VC funding easily
Adam Curry: Hey Phoebe compare ABC CBS like yeah register the
domain name dad. Okay, let
Dave Jones: me see most yelling at us for leaving Nathan in the
in the lobby.
Adam Curry: Let's do that right now. Let's bring in our guest
today because he has been in podcasting 2.0 for quite a
while. In fact, I'll give you the brief history he created pod
link which is bought by pod sites pod sites was bought by
Spotify. Then they fired him. Since then he's gone on to
create steno.fm transcribe.fm and has something new to
announce today. We welcome to the podcast in Tupelo a board
meeting in the boardroom. Nathan gathright. Howdy, howdy, howdy,
howdy. Hey girl. Hey, girl. We can be on NPR and Wall Street
Journal and you go hey, Nathan, how you doing, man? Pretty good.
So it's been a while but maybe a year long. Yeah, just about. So
you want to weigh in on any of the stuff we just talked about?
Nathan G.: Oh, I think all the streamers got jealous of
Netflix's stock price and they waded into the streaming wars,
having never had to ever deal with churn management and
realizing oh, we've we've led cable networks, you know have
year long contracts. Send wire physical wires out to people
houses, all that jazz. And now they joined the streaming wars
made like Oh, turn management is a thing. Hmm. I guess I guess
allowing people to sign up and cancel within a month is not
that great for our business?
Dave Jones: Yeah, but the Paramount Paramount is they're
close to the end. Oh,
Adam Curry: yeah. I mean, they've got Larry Ellison's kid
buying up half of their assets.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, that they went all in on Paramount
plus, and it was a saw, yikes. Yeah, it was bad.
Nathan G.: Yeah, I think Sony is the legacy media player that has
done the smart thing, which is they're just a content arms
dealer to everybody else, they'll sell to Netflix, they'll
sell to whoever. And I think a lot of these media companies are
going to basically retreat to that position, give up that
whatever their streaming services and go back to just
selling to everybody else.
Dave Jones: That's an interesting, I'd like that
content arms dealer. That's a funny.
Adam Curry: It's Gosh, man, you know, never came up in that
conversation. Was roku.
Dave Jones: Oh, they are? Yeah. You know, this, this is a hard
thing in some ways, too. Because, like James posted the
other day about, you know, I can't believe that. That stripe
is doing a trillion dollars in in transaction volume. And, you
know, so I went and looked at their, at their, you know,
earnings and stuff are not earnings, but they're still
they're not public financials or whatever financials, in the best
days, they apparently are still not profitable is that it's none
of those business, but they're the second largest payment
processor in the world, and they still don't turn a profit. So
unbelievable. Yes. So you have to wonder about some of the
about this whole thing is like, well, Roku, sometimes you think,
Oh, well, they're perfectly positioned, they must be doing
well. But that's not always the case, the volume, if the margin
is low, the volume really doesn't help you. And
Adam Curry: when they're really just an app store, you know, the
App Store. And that's it. They're like, they're like the
iPhone of streaming apps. But without all the all the other
stuff, just literally the App Store. So anyway,
Dave Jones: Nathan, I'm about to click on this link. That I
tweeted, yes.
Adam Curry: Know what it does episodes dot F m, I want to take
a look at this.
Dave Jones: Okay. I clicked on it. And if it's a fancy
Adam Curry: green logo, so it makes me feel like climate
change right away.
Nathan G.: It's more like a radioactive green. Ah, oh, it
Adam Curry: is? Yeah, it is kind of gooey. Yes. Let's see. Yes.
waste sorting by popularity, save preferred podcasts apps
live. What is this? Tell them tell us what this is Nathan.
Yeah. So
Nathan G.: after I sold pod link, I, you know, still wanted
to keep working on it. But I, you know, was now a employee of
pod sites. And so all my time really had to go to their
priorities. And making a tool like pod link better was pretty
low on the to do list. And especially after they acquired
both, especially after Spotify acquired both pod sites and
charitable charitable had Smart Links already, pod link did not
really fit in strategically. So it's just sort of floating a
drift within Spotify being maintained for you know, some
undetermined amount of time. And I didn't want to leave
podcasters in the lurch if they ever decided that they were just
gonna shut it down and ignore it. I've offered to you know,
take over maintenance of it in the past, but no progress on
that front. But episodes FM is sort of is my return to the
genre of this type of product. So
Adam Curry: wow, I get it. I see what it does. No, yeah,
Dave Jones: I'm on our show. Yeah, I'm listening. And then
you and then it's got links to all the other apps that will
also let you listen to the live stream.
Nathan G.: Yeah. So if you click you know, if you click out to
like the show level link, you can also click down into any of
your old episode level links. And there's a lot more than six
apps on those episodes or on the show level itself. I've got 30
apps in there right now. So you've got quite a lot. And when
a visitor clicks on one of these things, it sets a cookie on
their device to sort of like set their preferred podcast app,
there's no device level setting of a preferred podcast app. And
we've had efforts like, you know, fast follow that are
trying to sort of work at this problem. Episode. Sorry,
episode. Playing live. Yeah, episodes FM sort of is my
approach to that problem, which is, you know, a service that
lets you set a preferred podcast app. subsequent visits after
that first time will just take you straight into that app. So
you say fountain is your favorite app. Anytime you ever
click on an episode, that FM link in the future, it will just
always go to fountain and you won't have to hunt through a
list of 30 plus apps every single time to get to the show.
You want to listen to Ha,
Adam Curry: that's this is really interesting. That's and
now will it is
Dave Jones: like paddling. It's like pod link for live
Nathan G.: a lot. Yeah, life is just one feature, though. It's
doing it at the show level, and at the regular episode level as
well. So if you know if you're just a vanilla person who likes
Apple podcast, you know, episodes.fm will just take you
straight to the, you know, the chauffeur, any podcast on Apple
podcast or the episode level link for any episode on Apple
podcasts. And you'll basically never really see this webpage
beyond the first time as long as you have your cookie set.
Adam Curry: So the idea is that, instead of using your podcast
app, you go to episodes.fm.
Nathan G.: Now, you'd still end up back in your own pocket,
right, right.
Adam Curry: But but so if I just say I want to see pod news,
weekly review. So I type that in click, and then I can play the
latest episode right away. But I can't say I always want to
listen to this on the overcast. And then it'll set that and so
whenever I go back to episodes.fm, which is so that
would be kind of my starting spot. Like I want to listen to
X, Y, or Z.
Nathan G.: Yeah, I think it's really for, it really only works
if a lot of podcasters themselves all use episodes FM
to sort of promote their shows. So maybe you're scrolling
through Mastodon, and somebody is promoting their show, instead
of like, okay, let me do a copy paste the name of the show hope
that there's not some sort of like special character in the
name of the show that?
Adam Curry: Yeah, so it's really, it's
Nathan G.: really the call to action for podcasters, who,
instead of just saying, wherever you find it, you know, wherever
you get your podcasts, they can actually provide a call to
action that takes the listener straight there without asking
the listener to do a lot of like, copy pasting. So
straightaway,
Adam Curry: I want to reserve podcasting.episodes.fm No,
agenda.episodes.fm. I'd like to buy those from
Nathan G.: you. Yeah, so I've got no sort of paid plan in
right now. But I just
Adam Curry: gave it to you.
Nathan G.: I'm definitely planning on supporting custom
domains, so that if people you know, want to own their own
domain and not be just linking out to some third party service
that, you know, could maybe go away one day in the future.
Adam Curry: Oh, that would be great. So I could have like, or
could I do a subset where I say, Okay, go to curry podcast.com.
And it shows my not, it shows my Oh, here you go. It shows my
publisher channel and it shows my pod roll.
Nathan G.: Yeah, I definitely want to explore publisher
channel, once a few more people start making those, I definitely
want to be supporting publisher channels as well as episodes.
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's very cool. That's a great idea.
Nathan G.: Yeah. So tied in with this sort of idea is a couple of
proposals for the namespace that I have going on. One of which
is, hey, there's these six apps right here on like the live
link. But if you support the content link tag in your live
item, I want to be able to add all of those as well. So if
you're also streaming on YouTube, or rumble, or Twitch,
or Facebook, or whatever, I want those apps to be able to
populate on this list in addition to the six podcast
apps. So I'm planning on adding support for the content link
tag, just sort of parse those links out of Live item tags in
the RSS feed.
Dave Jones: And then in the in the Content link is so content
link tag is an existing tag and your what you propose is as an
enhancement to that basically, it's very, it's just a, it's a
simple change, that just because you retracted your previous
proposal, and now you've switched to just a a very simple
change, which is allowing the content link to be in the item
tag instead of just a live item tag.
Nathan G.: Yeah, correct. So I want to I want to support it in
episodes FM for both live item, live items and regular items. So
that podcasters can control the content, like I can control the
links on this page without having to like come claim their
feed with me and then Laura some interface and you know, like,
oh, you you know, but in some cases, it's like, you know, I
want to link to Patreon or some sort of like platform that I
wouldn't have no way to programmatically find the
Patreon link for a given episode. But you could put a
Content link tag in in your item. And say, here's where the
Patreon version of this episode exists. Maybe it's an extended
edition. Maybe it's just the ad free version, things like that,
where there is another app where you can get this content, but
maybe it's not in this RSS feed. Could
Adam Curry: I limit it? So say I only want these to surface
Nathan G.: right now? No, because I'm sort of like with
this sort of cookie based model. I want visitors to you know, set
that one cookie and then note that they can always go into
their show, like can always trust that episodes FM will take
them into their preferred podcast app. So I am thinking
about that for like the custom domains maybe like giving you
more control in the custom domain setting, but I want sort
of episodes.fm domain to be a like reliable service, or like,
Yes, I'm somebody who always listens in, you know, Apple
podcasts, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be able to hide the
podcasting 2.0 apps, I don't really want to enable that
behavior, right? People, you're like, Hey, I'm a big fan of
Pocket Casts, you're like, sorry, the podcast or sign up
for my service. And they only really are aware of the top
three apps. I don't really want to enable that behavior.
Adam Curry: Right. But it's kind of cool, because you have kind
of customers, you have podcasters, who will be
customers in the future, who can have custom setups. And you have
listeners who can tailor this to, I guess, to their own needs.
That's what it is right now. Yeah,
Nathan G.: I think potentially, the tension between trying to
serve both of those parties who maybe have different goals is is
the one of the difficult challenges of this, but I think
I want to solve
Adam Curry: your Nathan gathright.
Unknown: He's gonna do this challenge. Just for breakfast.
Got this?
Adam Curry: Yeah. Wow. That's cool, man. That's very cool.
Congratulations. Nice. Thank you. Nice. Nice reveal. So what
are we Dave now we just a promo show, and we got the buddy
sprout guys want to promote their iOS app, you know, it's
like, blueberry wants to promote his show. I mean, we're just
like a regular regular show. Now. We're like the Tonight
Show.
Dave Jones: We should be getting a piece of the work for Nathan
because he's not making any money. So
Nathan G.: the one of the things I want to call out is the the OP
three integration. So specifically, because podcasting
2.0 has op three, in their RSS feed, the sort order is based on
podcasting. 2.0 is ranking?
Adam Curry: Ah, all
Dave Jones: right. So I don't understand that. Can you explain
that
Nathan G.: I go. So, you know, if you look at a Libsyn, like
ranking of top apps, you know, Apple podcasts will be number
one, and, you know, on like pod news and pod news, podcast
pages, maybe like filter out the apps that aren't relevant for
your user agent. Okay, sort of an alternative approach to that
is I just say, Well, what about the OP three stats for this
exact show I, I can put the podcasting 2.0 apps at the very
top of the list for podcasting 2.0 Because or pod news, weekly
review or any of these apps where a significant portion of
their audience is coming from these more niche apps, I can put
it at the top of the ranking, because I know that's where the
existing audiences, this new listener probably also will want
to listen where the existing audiences tell
Adam Curry: us about the search. How are you? How are you
implementing this search.
Nathan G.: So at the top level, the search is just doing iTunes
search, because a lot of these platforms really rely on the
iTunes ID as their link, like you cannot link to an overcast
page without a show having an iTunes ID, things like that. So
I want to make that better. But right now, it's just using the
iTunes look up to find these shows. But then it's queering,
the podcast index for most of the data.
Dave Jones: So let me let me see it says, so let me ask you this.
So are you doing this in this op? Three? Check? Are you doing
that in real time? Yeah, cuz the line. Okay, the live stream? I
mean, that's, that must be happening is happening now.
Nathan G.: Yeah. Like, the OP three check is really kind of
just to sort the apps. It's not deciding what apps to to. It
doesn't have like the episodes specific link for pod verse.
It's just linking to the Show page. And then the listener has
to click in from the Show page to the Live episode themselves.
But I maintain that repository full of all the URL link
patterns for show level and episode level links. If the
podcasting 2.0 apps that support live want to provide a like sort
of like, programmatic way that I could link straight to the live
stream, I'd be happy to support that for any of these, any of
these, like apps that
Adam Curry: we have so so I go to podcast and 2.0. It shows pod
verse at the top than Apple podcasts Pocket Casts. This is
based upon the OP three data. Yes.
Nathan G.: So it's the OP three data combined with the the user
agent of the device that you're on. So if you view this exact
same page on an Android phone or an iPhone or Mac, the sort order
is all going to be slightly different. To do that
Dave Jones: back now, very interesting.
Nathan G.: Yeah, yeah, Spurlock released some new API's for me
this week that basically let you get the global ranking of apps
for a given user agent or for a given device. So on Android
phones, they're still you know, downloads that are being
attributed to Apple podcast. Maybe they're listening in the
web player. Maybe it's apps. Oh, that's fascinating. Stealing
Apple podcast is user age and living thing.
Adam Curry: So it's
Dave Jones: different Elma my
Adam Curry: web browser brave. I get pod verse Apple podcasts
Pocket Casts G Potter player FM, on my Android also brave
fountain pod verse podcast, attic antenna pod podcast guru.
This is dynamite. Man. This is very interesting.
Dave Jones: And I'm on the iPhone. So I get fountain pod
verse, overcast podcast, Guru castbox.
Adam Curry: Overcast does show up on my list, which is
impossible on the Android but it's way down the list. So
that's you broke it.
Nathan G.: I don't I don't hide. I don't hide any hide anything.
Yeah, I got Yeah, they all just get shuffled further down the
page, if they don't have a significant market share on that
device type. Fabulous.
Dave Jones: I love it. And I'm assuming that for the live stuff
that you've probably you've probably just got, do you have
hard coded just the apps the support live and then you just
shuffle them? According to what the order is? is in mobi? Three.
Nathan G.: Yeah, definitely. Okay,
Dave Jones: okay. How's this? So amazing, man, it's
Adam Curry: really cool. How strim scribd.fm doing? You know,
it's
Nathan G.: not quite taken off. I think it's essentially just
like a wrapper around the deep Graham transcription service.
But let's do pay in Satoshi. So I haven't really been able to
devote, you know, more resources to figuring out what else it
could become, besides just that, you know, it hasn't paid for,
you know, its own domain name, just yet.fm domains are pricier
than people are willing to pay SATs for transcripts. But
Adam Curry: yes, you have to I would love to use it. But you
know, you know what my problem is? is I need Speaker Labels.
Nathan G.: Yeah, it Yeah, it does. It does the speaker
identification, then it throws in, you know, Speaker One,
Speaker two, and it'll get confused by all the little ISOs.
And other soundboard things of are those additional speakers,
the same speaker. So deep Graham is not so fantastic at that I
can see why fountain and other and transistor and other people
don't do. They don't support any of that. So I wasn't really
going to like do the engineering effort to build that on my own.
It was like, if deep Graham, you know, implement something like
that, then happy to pull those.
Adam Curry: I'll switch away from otter the minute you have
that. I mean, because I have to say I'm pretty impressed with
otter, it's also gotten a little bit faster. But you know, if I
haven't spoken to see, I forget what it was, though, even with
this show, it'll probably pick up your voice and auto detect
and tag your speaker number as you in this episode. It's good
at that. I mean, all
Nathan G.: that sort of like fingerprinting thing is Yeah, to
me, but very interesting. Yeah.
Adam Curry: No, because that's the only reason why well, I
don't use you because I'd really love to support you. But it's
just yeah,
Dave Jones: I got any kind of got Sherlock to but Apple
podcast transcript. Yeah.
Nathan G.: It, but it also supports a lightning payment
API. So you can without even using the interface. It's called
the l 402. API, which is basically, you know, provide a
URL to a piece of audio and ask, like, Hey, I'd like to
transcribe this, I look at the duration, I generate an invoice,
I send that back to you, you, you know, pay that invoice and
send send back like sort of like proof of payment with a second
API request and then receive the full transcript. So I think
like, there's something there and building lightning payment
API's for various services, like if true fans wants to transcribe
things, and just wants to pay a third party service. I want to
see, you know, pod verse and true fans, and maybe some other
parties maybe make some services that they use, you know, they
they build it for themselves, but then they allow other
podcasting apps to also take advantage of it and be
compensated for that effort.
Adam Curry: Oh, cool. Very cool.
Dave Jones: Can we talk? Can we talk about the follow tag? Yes.
The so what and what had happened is, you know, we had
this, I guess we had this idea of putting content links, or
excuse me, you had proposed putting content links into the
feed for all the different places where a show would live.
So for all the spot, Spotify tags, Spotify links, I mean, all
these different places. You can either watch the show is
similar. I mean, this the content link, but then Kevin
from Buzzsprout, said, who you know, that's for a hosting
company that has 300,000 feeds. Bandwidth is always an issue if
you make his every, every little addition to the RSS feed causes
their cost to go up by a large amount just because As of the
volume, and so rather than putting, you know, 50 content
links in, in each item, you had said, Well, why don't we do
change the structure around and put all the follow links, but
all the content links into an external file? And then relink
to it with a tag? Is that you want to flesh that out a bit.
Nathan G.: Yeah. So initially, I wanted, I was imagining Content
link, it could scale from live item to item to channel, and
just sort of walk that back and say, like, okay, Content link,
it's just for live item. And item is my proposal. If you put
50 of them in for, you know, you don't really have 50 live
streaming platforms, but you know, so you put like, three in
for live item, maybe you want to put two or three in at the item
level. And maybe you don't do it for every single episode, maybe
you just do it. For like, Hey, I'm putting in one link per
episode, you know, because Patreon. And that's, that's all
you do, or maybe one link per episode for the YouTube video
for this episode. Let that be sort of at the like discretion
of the podcaster. But the follow tag would be separate for the
channel. And so there'd be an external json file to link out
to pod verse Apple, Spotify, overcast, whatever. So
obviously, episodes, FM has like 30 plus links here that I'm able
to get programmatically. There's another 30 links that I can't
get programmatically. You know, the Youtube playlist for a show
is not something that is as easy for me to find as the apple
podcasts URL for a show, given an RSS feed, that sort of thing.
So if podcasters want to add more apps to their episodes, FM
page, I want to give them a way to do that in the feed without
having to come claim their show, and then manually add those
links. And if you're hosted on Buzzsprout, or transistor, your
web page already includes those links, there already is some
part of the admin UI where they can say like, oh, yeah, here's
my Amazon Music link. And here's my XYZ link, and whatever. So
the podcast follow tag is just my proposal for, hey, this
should be in the feed to the feed is the way that the
podcaster or the host, it's their API with the all the
players and all the other services, I'd love for them to
put all those links in a JSON file, just sort of be a self
verification method. So I can say like, Okay, I could go use
Amazon musics API that's behind a, you know, NDA and 10. Other
signatures, I tried to do this when I was still running public,
reached out to people at Amazon music, tried to get an Amazon
Music button on the page. And it was nearly impossible because of
Spotify legal had to review a contract. And then Amazon music
had to review a contract. I'm like, I just want to link to a
podcast on No, I'm not trying to, like, why did why do lawyers
need to be involved when I just want to, like, grab a link. And
Amazon music just couldn't make that easy for me. And Spotify
couldn't make that easy for me. And I was like, you know, the,
this is really between the podcasters. And the listeners,
the podcasters, should be able to write the links to their
shows Amen. And they shouldn't have to go through me as a
middleman, that it should just be in the RSS feed. So I think
the follow tag is after, you know, hearing by the sprouts
argument of like, yeah, we're not going to add, you know, 10,
or even, you know, much less 50 links to various platforms,
right in the feed itself, maybe you will link it in a JSON file.
I sort of rewrote the proposal to sort of split those two use
cases. So channel level links, and a podcast follow tag item or
live item links and a Content link tag.
Dave Jones: Because of the looking at your, the schema or
your JSON structure here, it's it's very, it's very simplistic.
I mean, the first, there's different types of things. So
you have like a basic example. And then you have some social
links. I mean, I guess the first thing that hits me is me is
there's some need for like a type parameter, or a type
property that differentiates these things. Yeah, the media
link, and this other one is a social link, or, yeah,
Nathan G.: in my mind, every single link should refer to this
show. And whatever this show means. And presumably, it has
equivalent, you know, sub items for episodes. Just, you know,
the same sort of thing like that, like, yes, you might have
a, you know, a social interact tag that has all the same
information in it. I didn't really think social links would
be, you know, a compelling use case here. It was just sort of
fleshing out what you were talking about with trying to get
links like to that extent, but I think the basically the sample
and the multiple links to the same domain example are the two
that I think are really interesting. But type, I really
was just trying to keep this as like bare bones as possible so
that hosts don't have a lot more you don't have to had don't have
to add any more UI to their existing interface where they
let podcasters like supply additional links beyond what
they're what they're doing right now. I think, any app that like
wants to parse these, they can just look at the domain name and
group them for their own purposes, just because some
podcaster throws any arbitrary link in here doesn't mean I'm
going to show it on episodes FM, I'm going to check against like
an allow list and say like, do I already have an icon for this
app? Like, oh, I'll show rumble because I have a rumble icon.
But I'm not going to show some, you know, xyz.com link just
because you put it in your RSS feed. So I'm, you know, trying
to serve, serve the needs of the listeners and the podcasters.
And trying to strike a right happy balance in between those
two things. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I think that makes sense. Because this looks
essentially like a programmatic, programmatic way to do to, like
deliver a link tree or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The
longer with your show,
Nathan G.: episodes of em kind of is a link tree type service
in and of itself. And I just
Adam Curry: like Link tree for podcasts.
Dave Jones: VC give that guy some money.
Nathan G.: I did talk to the link tree CEO. Soon after I sold
pod Lincoln. He was like, Oh, we were kind of interested. And
they ended up acquiring song, the dot link, which eventually
themselves a couple years after I started paddling, opened up
pods dot link, and I was like, Oh, I really relate to the party
if you're if you're having to go buy pods. Wow,
Dave Jones: it just seems it just seems like a it just seems
like a good idea to deliver that as part of this as tied to the
feed. Yeah, well, you don't? Yeah, yeah. The feed itself into
turn, you know, is saying here, here's what, here's where you
can find this other stuff. You know, I think that makes a whole
lot of sense. Because this is so the other. The other one you had
was the country tag. And this is this is, you know, we haven't
had a good flame war. And while
Adam Curry: I don't know, meta data drama was pretty big, as
far as I'm concerned
Dave Jones: till this week, as well. And then we had some face
melting, you know, nobody got muted or blocked that I know of,
but, but the country tag almost became that to everybody's like,
this sucks, you know, like, Okay, well, people have such,
like, intense, like, feelings about the country tag. And I was
like, Okay, it's Benjamin Bellamy. You know, he wanted, he
wanted this. And it's basically just the country of origin. It's
just tagging the feed with the country of origin that the
podcast is from? Yeah. That's a miss. That's it. Right?
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's crazy. To me.
Nathan G.: I think the problem is, most podcast apps don't
really have a use for that. But if you look at Apple podcasts,
they have a storefront that's unique for every single show. So
their discover, you know, homepage, to get you into new
shows is precisely divided along those lines. And that's never
been in the feet. So for the same reason that I proposed,
like the update frequency tag, I thought, you know, things that
end up in Apple podcasts, it'd be great if they were had a
source of truth in the feed. So I could see this influencing,
you know, if Apple ever decides to, you know, use this tag to
help them identify shows that are up and coming in a given
country, you know, maybe that's useful, you can see that true
fans has a has a little toggle for searching by that, you know,
it can be useful in those sorts of use cases. But if you're not
going to pitch a use case, that really takes advantage of this
and works, whether this has low adoption or high adoption. I
think a lot of the tags really sort of suffer from like, the
reason people want to deprecate some tags is because they have
minimal utility at low adoption rates. And any proposal I've
written, I try to make sure that it still has utility, even if it
has a really low adoption rate. So that the flywheel is greased
from, oh, you know, this app supports it. So now these hosts
support it. Now these hosts support it now this app supports
it, and you can get that virtuous cycle that increases
adoption, but it doesn't have to wait until 100% adoption before
it's useful.
Dave Jones: I understand the the hesitancy about the country tag
or the that's not the right word unders understand the understand
people that look may look at it and say that's a useless tag.
I'm sympathetic to that. But at the same time, like I can see it
from the other side, too, because to us for like for me,
I, I I don't this tag does not excite me in the least. But
that's because the US has a gigantic, I mean, dominance
within podcasting. I mean, like, there's just it's so what if
you're just another podcast from the US? It's kind of an
irrelevant thing. But I think from Mike Benjamin standpoint,
French podcasting But that's a big deal. Yeah, and or Italian,
if you're an Italian podcaster, those are smaller communities.
And it sort of it has meaning to it. But within that, within that
culture that you are a French podcast, or that you're even
from, that you're even produced in France. So I think that like,
some of these, like I can imagine, okay, like if you're a
podcaster in, do you remember? Adam, that guy that sent us? A
link to an OPML? file with like, 100? podcasts from Kazakhstan?
Yes. Yeah, I
Adam Curry: do. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Jones: So if you're in Kazakhstan, and you've only and
there's only 100 podcasts in the entire country. Yeah.
Adam Curry: You want exclusion is good for exclusionary
searches. Yeah.
Dave Jones: And it's, it kind of puts you, it identifies you in
this local, I mean, the same thing that I Potter did I mean,
everything is separated by geographic region, I don't know
there's a little bit of a, I think the bigger your podcasts,
zone is, for lack of a better term, then the less meaningful
this this is to you. But the smaller your community, it, I
can see this being pretty meaningful. And I'm really not
opposed to it. These kinds of tags, that I think I've said
this before, these these tags that may have limited
usefulness, like you said, like, you know, low usefulness at a
low adoption rate. These things just don't bother me. Because if
somebody is out there, like, here's what it here's my thing,
if it never hurts to have more information in the feed, like it
just that it's there's never a time when having more metadata
in the feed is a bad thing. So even if even if most people or a
lot of platforms ignore it, if there's one platform or app out
there, that sees this metadata in there and says, Oh, that's
kind of cool, and comes up with a cool use case for it. It's a
win. It's a win, maybe for, let's say, out of 400,000 active
podcasts. It's a win for maybe 700 of them. That's fine. It's
still a win. Like, yeah, I don't see the downside for that.
Nathan G.: Yeah, I don't think the podcast apps need to all act
in lockstep to support all features. Part of the reason I
made steno FM was specifically to sort of demonstrate a
different UX to transcripts than I was seeing any of the other
2.0 apps adopted, they were all sort of doing a caption style.
No, Allah YouTube will show one line at a time and was like, I
really want to see the read the whole thing while I'm listening.
And that's the sort of UX that Apple podcasts ended up going
with. For that same sort of reason, I think, a bunch of the
other tags that have low adoption rate, that's fine. It's
not like we are not trying to have everybody act in lockstep.
If a tag doesn't prove useful now, but maybe proves useful,
you know, two years from now, we, you know, we shouldn't have
removed it in the meanwhile, I don't I don't really see what
the advantages of taking some tags out of the namespace.
Because they're not proving you know, because they're not
reaching high adoption right now. I don't like is there some
sort of, you know, besides true fans, I don't know any app that
is like actively trying to make sure they check off every single
box, you know, Content link, and follow our
Adam Curry: tree tag and create new ones that don't exist.
Nathan G.: Content, follow our two tags that I don't see most
of the podcast app apps actually adopting, but services like
episodes, FM, and other and you know, other things that come
along, I think that makes total sense for so it's not that we
need to all be copying each other, and having the exact same
UX in all these various apps, in order to pressure the more you
know, the bigger, more market share apps, I think we can all
just sort of carve our own path and it's a marketplace of ideas
to see what features listeners are actually clamoring for.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I agree. And some of these are some of these
are visionary things that that they look they're really
ambitious in what they want. And so you have this sort of like
trickle trickle trickle and who knows maybe five years from now
all of a sudden this may book a specific use case comes up a
specific app begins to use this in a neat way and then lots of
people do it. I mean, look at what just happened with
transcripts not transcripts was a successful tag from the
beginning. But it never but it did not all of a sudden it had
it has now gone into a launch phase because Apple podcast
adopted it. And now you know, it triggered this, this this
waterfall of lip you know lips and and other hosting companies
hurrying to adopt the tag. So it doesn't take much to have a tag
go from, you know, just mare adoption rate to something
really impressive in a short period of time. Time. And and I
don't I don't feel comfortable putting arbitrary limits on how
long that that process is supposed to take a look at RSS
2.0. Look at the original RSS 2.0 spec. There's still elements
in there that are not used today very often, like the source
element. You never see that tag in use, but it's still in the
spec. And if you ask Dave wanted to remove it, he's gonna you
know, he's gonna He's gonna block
Adam Curry: jump on a block you block you. Yeah, Dave, I don't
want to be the party pooper here, but it's 148. And you have
a heart out because you are a single handedly taking care of
tax returns for all of the state of Alabama's commercial sector.
Yes.
Dave Jones: Okay, yeah, we want to thank some people. Yeah,
Adam Curry: well, yeah, actually, that we can kind of do
a, a two prong thing here because we're getting a lot of
live booths. And some of them are responsive to the
conversation. So we'll we'll kick it off with that. And I
want to thank Steven B for testing whatever he's testing
during the show because it makes it sound very active. He's
testing the split kits soundboard different sounds for
SATs.
Dave Jones: There's a lot of pew pew
Adam Curry: he's a big pew pew anonymous with a row of ducks.
2222 Thank you very much. So Stephen B is sending all kinds
of amounts. He's testing something with a soundboard
which sounds exciting. Chad F 2222. He says hearing a lot of
pews just want to feel included. Pew pressure. Whoo. Pew
pressure. I like that. Sam Sethi column 5000 SATs Colin, try tag.
Colin on show try tag is step one. Great for analytics. Also
showing podcasts in your country on the homepage. This works best
for international if you combine this with the location tag, you
get the best geolocation Do you understand exactly what he's
saying?
Nathan G.: He was saying country tag not Contra. Okay.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Oh, that's Yeah, I think you're right. It's
that's autocorrect thanks, Apple. Country tag. Yes, I think
you're right. Now the 5000 SATs from Sam Sethi. Here you go.
This is for you asking for a friend. But why? Why would any
app want to show links via the content link to external apps,
we work hard to get users to use our app. The first thing we
don't want to show is other apps. And I still don't
understand the follow idea.
Nathan G.: I think this is the first tag not for Sam Sethi.
Yeah
Dave Jones: move on moving on.
Nathan G.: There are more apps in the ecosystem than just
podcast players episodes FM is now one there's other services
out there and we're going to use this tag and it's not for the
podcast players themselves it's for getting listeners to you the
way that in the way that episodes FM is a podcast app
link tree will you know true fans will always be on that
list.
Dave Jones: Is a funnel is a fun as a podcast funnel. Yeah
Adam Curry: 1000 SATs from Dobby das he says Happy 25th Birthday
RSS Yeah, that's right. It is 21st birthday of RSS. Another
5000 from San Ceci we do want to use the transcribe.fm love l dot
402 Like Adam though I need to link speaker link to person tag
which is what we do today. Yes, that's understood 3333 from
circus media and other informative and entertaining
board meeting thank you for your courage gentlemen circus media
and then 13 696 from Burberry This is an add one weekend to
bring this 12 Rod stream to life this is the next contract he's
working on and holy wow we have covered a ton of ground already
we've got a mock up live is lit sign banners sewn ready to be
painted camera angles nailed lighting quote squared away RSS
feeds have been made. We've got GIF art screen printed art for T
shirts. We're going to be onboarding three bands for this
show alone and the venue gets a feed I think he meant split but
the venue gets a feed maybe they get a feed I don't know. And he
sends in another 13 696 Boost saying that there's going to be
a goat drive. What's the goat what's a ghost drive you ask the
boardroom as he or she would the most goats murdered by the end
of the 10 minute round well winner prize that's on the
behind the schemes that will be after no agenda this Sunday live
so Yeah, whenever you boost the right amount of goat get
slaughtered. It's a very friendly show. 5150 from tone
record, kapow. Thank you, brother. And let me see. Then I
hit the limiter. So yeah, Europe, Dave.
Dave Jones: Oh, let's see we've got we got a couple of pay pals.
We get and they're both real. They're related. There is a
Adam Curry: they're in a relationship.
Dave Jones: They're in a relationship for three $300 from
the boys at blueberry the boys and girls I believe. Oh, thank
you.
Unknown: Sakala 20 is blades on am Paula.
Adam Curry: Thank you.
Dave Jones: There is no see there's no yeah, there's a note.
The note is go podcasting.
Adam Curry: I gotcha. I gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Nice
Dave Jones: and a $30 a month new subscription from Todd and
Robin new media show.
Adam Curry: Oh, thank you boys. Appreciate that. Yeah. I feel
bad that we rag on him.
Dave Jones: Now that I know,
Adam Curry: hey, new media show we tagged them. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Thanks. Thanks for that, Rob. I mean, I appreciate
that. Todd from Northern Virginia says big central
Richards 11111 podcast index website says Dave, I'm
fascinated by the beef milkshake. Could you spend 30
seconds to explain what it is and most importantly, why 30 is
the I don't need 30 seconds. It is the it is three ice cubes.
This is in a blender. Three Ice cubes. A cup of milk. A scoop of
whey protein isolate, and a scoop of equipped foods. grass
fed beef protein hydrolyzed beef protein from equip foods.com
That is that is the recipe. Enjoy. Yummy yum Yeah, the the
equip foods thing is it's chocolate specifically as
chocolate. It's, it's a little pricey, but it's it's high
quality. Do you fall
Okay, see, we got Joe Jean Everett 1111 Small central
Richards
Adam Curry: he just says boost. Thank you very much. Boost.
Dave Jones: Another one from Jean Everett 8888. And he says
that's the fountain he says boost boost boost. Yes, yes.
Yes. Boost boost boost. 3333 from Jean Everis as boost.
Adam Curry: I'm running out.
Dave Jones: He's on fire. He's like a countdown or something.
He's doing like it like three to one. I'm afraid something's
gonna happen on the next hack my computer. Mere Mortals podcast
2222 roadex. Their true friends. True fans. He says app
development must be hard. It is isn't it Nathan? I was
showcasing V for V music at my BTC meetup. And some people
tried searching by category. Others wanted to play right
away. Others look for non V for V artists at regrow my hair just
to pull it out again if I tried building an app. Yeah. So this
is classic. This is classic behavior. And I'm sure Nathan
you you've experienced this. dozens of times. You get
everything working perfectly in your app. It's it's it's it's
polished, it's working great. You're like, Hey, you hand it to
somebody in like, Hey, check this out. In the first thing
they they tried to do is something you never anticipated.
And you're like, Oh crap. They do sometimes. Virtually
Adam Curry: my job is. Hey, how can we doesn't do this? Yep.
Dave Jones: Or you're like, you're like, Oh, I never thought
I never even thought that this, that they would try to type that
into this then.
Nathan G.: My, my, my favorite, that's a that's a classic sort
of, you know, user research problem where a designer will
like oh, and then they'll do this, they'll do this. And I'm
like, great. Let's put it in front of some people. Like let's
just put the mock ups let's not build it. And let's just put
those mock ups in front of you know, five people and see if
they do what you expect or whether your expectations were
misaligned with the average person will do exactly and it'll
it's you know, there's a there's a gift of some people the
drinking a glass of water wrong, like they're licking the side. I
just posted it in the chat. This is my, like, favorite UX
research meme.
Dave Jones: That's very funny. Like my favorite is the like the
the one with the person who keeps putting all the shapes in
the square hole. Yes, exactly. Like this misaligned, would you
say misaligned incentives, misaligned expectations,
expectation, this aligned expectations? Totally.
Adam Curry: I do think that that's great. I
Nathan G.: lean a lot into that when I am designing to say, you
know, the user is going to expect this to behave this way.
I'm going to, like use that to my advantage.
Dave Jones: That needs to be a teacher of podcasting. 2.0
misaligned expectations Jean been 20 to 22 He says yesterday
if I think sharing the data for an LLM is fine. Okay, well,
cool. Yes. I gave it to him. Yeah.
Adam Curry: That's a very famous company. Actually. It's
Dave Jones: we can't say it they don't they want to keep it on
the download. So I didn't say anything. No, you know, we can
say the name. Wow. Yeah, I asked specifically, and I was like,
alright, and they were like, no, let's not say that. Oh, okay. Do
you never 5555 they found and he says boost boost boost. Yeah,
this is a countdown to get we got a 7777 There's gotta be a
6666 in here somewhere. I probably that was dangerously
close to the mark of say, oh, no, no, no. Mere Mortals podcast
essential Richard's a small one. He says oops. Forgot to boost
last week love what found is done with incorporating social
features into podcasting. It was a lonelier time when they
weren't around. I used to feel like I came into p 2.0. Late but
now I can be an old timer to start my sentences with I
remember when feels good bit history. When I was a kid, yeah,
back then a day. Let's say Oh, user, this this boost of 105
sets is from user 213988710. I'm fountain. On fountain Yes. And
he says the trusted. Okay.
Adam Curry: All right. Thank you. You are trusted. Yes.
Dave Jones: Thank and Thank you Jean Everett for that 4444 boost
of the see and there it is 6666 There it is. He says booster to
Adam Curry: Yes, I always say boost the toot read it was it.
Retweet the tweet booster to slash the ex? Na.
Dave Jones: Oh, and here we go. delimiter commentator, a blogger
23,000 SATs through fountain. He says howdy David Adam. Please
inform your audience by visiting my cartoon blog at www dot CSB
dot lol and encourage them to follow me on Twitter or x.com at
CSB. All followers will have the privilege of asking me up to
three questions daily. You see is
Adam Curry: a rare, rare self promotion. rare one.
Dave Jones: What a special privilege.
Adam Curry: Second prize six questions
Dave Jones: let's see. Oh,
Adam Curry: we have a late late comer both booths from Jay Moon
10,033 sets. He says I was going to tally boost you but I looked
at the fees. Nevermind. Yes. Thank you. Yeah,
Dave Jones: you feel you know, oh, this is great. I sent so I
sent my I sent my brother in law. He he did my personal
taxes. So I was like well let me acid let me pay you. He's like
go you don't have to pay me. I was like, No, I'm gonna pay you.
I said let me let me just send you some bitcoin. And he was
like, Okay, sure. So I got into that he got on the strike app.
And then so and I sent it to him I sent him like $200 with a
Bitcoin. And like I did that yesterday. And within like five
minutes it was down like 5% I was like, it's usually not like
this. I'm
Adam Curry: sorry. Buy more buy more. It's up above 70 Again, so
really?
Dave Jones: Like this is this is where this is where you your
natural
Adam Curry: great isn't a great, don't you love? Oh,
Dave Jones: see? Did you get the one from chyron
Adam Curry: blueberry said 2222 the venue we're streaming from
Taylor sound is gonna get set up with their own RSS feed to
release concerts on Okay, great. That's good. That's what he was
talking about. Nice.
Dave Jones: Okay. See, I'm trying to make sure that I get I
think was that I think I had some I think I had some come in.
After. Yeah, we came this came in after the delimiter I think
Adam Curry: I didn't see anything after the delimiter I
can double check but
Dave Jones: I got one from debased ghost. I don't have that
one. Can the music and this is 11,000 says Can the music in the
podcast index be made available to DJ in the same way
SoundCloud? Title and Apple music tracks are bonus points.
If a recorded DJ set automatically timestamps tracks
to polish and music podcast with song links. Double Dog points of
algorithm enabled streaming sets while DJing in the app will mean
yeah, all this is yeah, it's all possible. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Adam Curry: But is he asking for a DJing app that allows you to
DJ and mix stuff?
Dave Jones: I don't know Maybe you can tell us more way
Adam Curry: yes, the longer boost with a higher amount
earlier
Dave Jones: and then we had to know another one from Karen
2022. I think these are just ones that I missed. Now I love
the two of you together analyzing the high level POC
stuff helps make sense of things that are distracting and making
a more active effort to support v for the projects like
blueberry show, book testing true fans and chatting with App
devs. Like Jason I believe Eric D for V will win regardless but
don't want my complacency to demoralize actual builders and
Adam Curry: devs. There you go. That's what we need a lot more
of that thinking.
Dave Jones: And we got some monthlies. We get Christopher
hyperbaric $10 Thank you, Christopher. Mitch Downey $10
run for cover Mitch heads down. Terry Keller $5 Chris Cowan $5
Damon cast Jack $15 Paul Saltzman $22.22 Yaren Rosenstein
$1 Jerry Derek J. Vickery, the best name in podcasting. $21,
Jeremy gerdts, $5 and Michael Hall $5.50. And that's our
group.
Adam Curry: Thank you all for supporting podcasting 2.0 You're
not just supporting the podcast, but you're really supporting the
entire project. Dave and I get none of this, we just put it
onto the node for opening up channels for people who need
liquidity. Hit me up if you need that on podcast, index dot
social, I just got another request. So make sure you do
that. That's what it's there for. And if you go to podcast
index.org down at the bottom, there's two red donate buttons
one for your pay pal for Fiat fun coupons. We'd love those.
And tally coin if the fees aren't too high, but what we
really want you to do is go to new podcast apps.com and grab
yourself a modern podcast app, fill up that wallet and boost us
boosts us through the modern system. Everybody wins that way.
Thank you so much for supporting podcasting. 2.0 and Nathan sorry
that we're little short today but I think we we got a lot of
good info out of you and a good product launch.
Nathan G.: Yeah, appreciate it.
Unknown: We're gonna launch
Dave Jones: my Tech's this season day job so it's a
deadline day to day so I gotta get back to race. No
Adam Curry: worries. All right. Nathan, have yourself a great
weekend. I'm sure you come on after somebody buys this and
then fires. So we'll be seeing you soon. No doubt. Dave take
care of the corporations. They're in Alabama. Thank you
very much boardroom and everybody have a great weekend.
Thanks, guys. See you. Okay, all right, brothers. We'll be back
next Friday right here podcasting 2.0 to bring you all
the latest it's going down the past to present the future and
the now of podcasting.
Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast
index.org for more information.
Adam Curry: Go podcast said you're not doing it
Dave Jones: right. I'm holding it wrong.