Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 From March 29 2024, episode 173
Ignatius proclivities Hello, everybody once again, welcome to
the official board meeting of podcasting point. Oh, this is
where we discuss podcasting. That's right. You may be in Los
Angeles, city of devils. You may be hanging out there thinking
you're discussing the future of podcasting, but it's all right
here and it's live every single Friday afternoon, everything
going on with podcasts, index.org, podcasts, index dot
social podcasting, two.org, you name it. We are the only
boardroom that refuses to be on YouTube. I'm Adam curry here in
the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in Alabama, the man
whose activity pub bridge is stronger than the one in
Baltimore Harbor. Hello, name Joe.
Dave Jones: That's, this is this is where I furiously try to eat
as much popcorn as possible while you're doing the intro. So
that my mouth is not full. When you pitch to me, well,
Adam Curry: well, people should understand that. We have day
jobs. Your day job is actually a Monday to Friday. And you have a
job that requires you to be very active right around tax time,
which is twice a year in your world. It is October and April.
Dave Jones: This what is this? I saw a picture of Sam Sethi
heading a board meeting of those something about 2.0 in Oh, no.
Oh, yes. Angeles. Oh, there's a competing boardroom?
Adam Curry: No, no, no, no, no, he has offered himself to be the
spokesmodel for the for the spokes. Oh, I think spokesmodel
is better for the podcast Standards Project. Yes. So they
have a meeting out there.
Dave Jones: What are we doing here?
Adam Curry: I don't know. I didn't get a memo. Did you get
anyone else in the boardroom got a memo? I didn't get a memo for
you did
Dave Jones: make an appearance at Podcast Movement though.
Which looks very much like the Bill Gates. 1984 Apple, and it
Adam Curry: was exactly what I was thinking. I had no idea. So
James very kindly asked me to produce a video about
podcasting. 2.0 about two minutes. Well, what can you do
in two minutes? So I that's what you said. Dude. So I did and it
was just me static in the studio, in the way it portrayed,
which by the way, they look really nice. That room, the
stage looked nice. Everyone had nice theater seats. You know,
great background center stage. And then on either side was a
huge monitor in my head appeared. And yeah, looking at
that, I'm like, wow, it is like 1980 for the period. I have no
time to hang out with you plebs over there. I'll just let you
know what I really think is going on. Now
Dave Jones: you did the best thing that you like, this was
the ultimate win. Win win for a Podcast Movement is you get to
be there but you don't have to know.
Adam Curry: Exactly. That's the best way to do it. I'd like to
attend all conferences that way. So just hit me up and I'll
record a video for you. No problem. No problem. Yeah. So I
was listening to how you doing brother? You okay, everything
good.
Dave Jones: I'm digging my way out of this out of this allergy
hole.
Adam Curry: Oh, goodness. Is that time of year again?
Dave Jones: Is this this is pine, pine pollen. In the south.
It's just like, if you haven't been in this in the southeast
during during March, April. It's just basically a blanket of
yellow.
Adam Curry: We have we have crap right now. We we've got it here
too in the southwest, Southwest.
Dave Jones: So in Texas, is it like is it the way it is here
when the wind blows? Yep. It's like yellow, a yellow wave. A
Adam Curry: waft a waft of stuff he has like a cloud goes through
the air.
Dave Jones: Yeah, Paul is a pollen tornado that goes through
now we have that we
Adam Curry: just got over cedar fever. We have that. The trees
just go. And they also emanate this cloud of stuff. But hey,
that's why we live here. We live we live in in these areas for
the food. It
Dave Jones: makes our makes our bodies stronger. Boot Camp like
boot camp for, you know for your immune system. So
Adam Curry: we have a couple of things to discuss. And I wanted
to start off with some advice and some some historical
experience and experience. Because we're there's some
things that are moving off track a little bit and it's
specifically as it pertains to value for value So I want to do
a quick little Redux and re introduction for many what value
for value is and the how I have made it work for myself, and for
Jhansi. Dvorak for 16, will be it'll be 17 years in October.
And we've lived off of this. So it actually weren't
Dave Jones: you say we've lived off of it. I mean, like, this is
been your full time job for 16. For no for
Adam Curry: for 1414 years, probably for almost 15 years
full time, but I've not done anything else. I've tried some
other things. But this, this is what has paid the rent, has put
a couple kids through school has kept our wives happy. Although
no, that's not true. But which one is which one,
Dave Jones: I'm making stuff up.
Adam Curry: And then there's a very good website value for
value dot info, value number four, value dot info, which
explains all of these things, because people are starting to
treat what we have in podcasting to point out as other things.
And I just want to give my experience, how it's worked for
me and how it was designed initially. And sometimes it's
good to just have a reminder, and this comes from conversation
I heard on pod news weekly review,
Dave Jones: where, where I knew this was coming.
Adam Curry: Well, Sam has been working well. Sam works with
lots of people. And I really appreciate what he does, because
he'll just throw everything at the wall and then go out and
throw it in your face to make it stick. And And this, by the way,
activity streams, which we'll get to. I'm glad he did that,
because it got me to open up about that and think about and
I'm kind of excited. But he's been working with Barry at pod
home. And when I heard that they added was a part of Phase seven.
But the medium equals courses, or course I think it is I II
it's an educational course. And that Barry is setting a minimum
price that you must pay, I need to stop and say let me explain
how this works. Because you're going to have disappointing
results. With with value from the genesis of value for value,
which was not the book 1000 true fans. Now this goes way back way
back 16, almost 17 years ago, we started no agenda. And within a
couple of weeks, we were like this is actual work. You need to
compensate us for this. We didn't want to go down the
advertising route. And also to be candid. It's not that I'm
against advertising. I hate meetings. I didn't want to meet
with clients about that. That was really and neither does
John. So that was really the main reason why.
Dave Jones: And that's not I mean that that sounds like a
trite thing. But I mean, let's, I can't tell you how many
advertising roundtables I've seen where they have they talk
endlessly for 20 to 30 minutes about how to get the, the, the
host to show up for a meeting where they can describe what
they want him to say. Yeah, it's this is this is not a this is
not a thing to discount. No,
Adam Curry: I'm not, I'm not. And I've been in commercial
broadcasting all my life. So I understand that extremely well.
I'm like, here's an opportunity. And so I didn't want to do that
knew that, John. At the time, we also were in a company that ran
on advertisements, and we saw that it was basically cheap, the
content is produce the content as cheaply as possible and then
put ads all over it. That's you know, like a NASCAR only put the
sponsor stickers on the windshield. So we decided to ask
people to contribute. And we said, Why don't you set up a Pay
Pal subscription for I think it was actually $2 a month, but
I'll say it was five just to make it easy, or not not a month
that was I think per show or per week doesn't even matter. It was
a subscription based thing. I think we did $2 Because it'd be
easy to calculate one for you. One for me, that's how simple it
was. Of course, we produce everything ourselves. It's very
important in podcasting, that if you can't produce it yourself,
you're gonna have a very hard time living off of it. That's
good. I guarantee that. Well, we got the the expected results, we
got maybe about $200 a month. I mean, it was very, very
disappointing. And we expressed our disappointment like we do
like this what we're doing, because if you're listening you
clearly like it for some reason. They said worth anything to you.
Is it is it. I mean, please tell us, just send them whatever you
think it's worth. And we got many more by asking just by
asking which remember, my wife is a now retired from corporate
life. A chief communications officer for nonprofits. She's
always said to me out of the number one reason why people
don't donate to a nonprofit is they didn't get asked that
surprising, but people Oh, you need money. Okay, well, he
didn't ask me. That's and they could be at an event then Don't
even donate money. But if you ask them, then suddenly they do.
So you have to have,
Dave Jones: I can confirm, I can confirm this. In many ways I've,
I used to have, along with a friend of mine a, an apologetics
ministry here. And we did things in many states here in the
south. And we would go to our and our initial idea was we
wanted to bring it for free. And we would just ask for, we would
ask for donations. All of us were too scared, or too nervous
to ask from the pulpit or wherever we were for a donation.
And then And guess what? Nobody, nobody ever gave us any money.
Yes, it all came out of our own pocket. It's amazing. As soon as
we got some balls, and started asking that they people people
started giving,
Adam Curry: asking you shall be answered. Yes, knock on the door
shall be opened, seek and you shall find. So yes, this is this
is prophecy. So we asked, and we got a lot of people sending $50
This was very surprising. Not only that, but several people
sent $500 And one person sent $5,000. All because we asked the
difference between $200 in a month. And it was probably six
and a half 1000 Because we asked in one episode, we never looked
back. Now this
Dave Jones: needs to be documented like in I would love
to hear the evolution of how this sounded on air. Time.
Adam Curry: Good one, I'm gonna go I'm gonna look for that.
That's a very good point, because I want to know exactly
what episode we started that. That's, that's a great point.
Thank you. But I can probably look through the transcripts.
Very quickly, we noticed that people really wanted a reason to
donate. And one of those reasons would be that they would add a
note. And on Pay Pal, you can add a little note the notes.
It's, it's changed over time as to how long that note can be in
the actual PayPal description. But the idea is is supposed to
be pretty short. And we would read those now in the beginning,
we read them all and then it became too much and people would
send like $2 $5. And then when a certain point, we said, look,
we're only going to read notes above a certain amount, just for
brevity sake just for time sake. And people understood that and
many people to this day, we may have I can look at it right now
we have eight notes that we will read, which has been for a long
time, the even despite inflation has been $200 or above. But
there's 400 donations for each show. And we don't talk at the
end, it goes all the way down to $1. And there's usually a bunch
of 50s. And then a whole bunch of people do 1111. And they do
all kinds of stuff. We found quickly, people really enjoyed
that feedback loop. And it was well known from the beginning,
we're going to read your note, if you send it above a certain
amount, that note is going to be read. And pretty much everyone
under that amount doesn't even send in a note anymore. They
just send in the money like this is what it was worth to be here
you go here. Here's the cash. And we've been using PayPal
exclusively for all this time, I think we just added stripe and
that has helped for some foreign payments. But over time, we
learned that this ask really became important people would
would would start to count up their their amounts I have
donated this much. Do I get a tote bag now like NPR? But like
no, no. So we gamified it. Then we have premium concert and I
was living in the UK at the time. He said well make you a
night make you a night with an origin around say why should the
Queen be the only one who can do that? That's just off the cuff.
And if you're a woman then it will be a Dane. And it wasn't
until I landed in Texas now 14 years ago. And so it was
probably there was actually maybe 11 years ago I met Jean
and surgeon was a night and he said hey, you know it's $1,000
if you $1,000 over the entire length of the time that you've
donated and you you do your own bookkeeping will trust you honor
system, then you become a knight and we have a little ceremony to
this day, we still have a ceremony we have a sword sound
and everything. It's all theater of the mind. But it's a
community aspect. And over time we start sending out a signet
ring with sealing wax they have in the certificate of
authenticity, it's all it's I mean, it's basically a cheap
Chinese ring. And it costs us a couple 100 bucks. It's you know,
many people there it's worn off the silver has gone as tungsten
underneath. But that's not the point. It represents a
contribution to the to the to the program. And we also never
call people listeners we always considered them producers
because we added to that, that you can support us with time,
talent or treasure. We've also never built a website never
hosted our own infrastructure. never done any Are any of that
because people consider that also a contribution and it is a
one for one contribution. Go ahead and set up a website or
outsource it now way go and go and contract artists to do image
art every single show. You know, we get 2030 different
submissions to choose from and it's become competitive. So now
Dave Jones: the same with it same with this show. I mean so
every time every time Steven crater goes and fixes a podcast
duplicate problem in the in the database it's that's a monetary
yeah seem to me yeah every time Eric every time every PP submits
a version of Hello pad to start nine or to Umbral that's that's
worth an immense amount of monetary and time to me Yes,
Adam Curry: exactly and to me we're both dealing with with
stuff but to you much, much more anytime someone does something,
a pull request for the website with an update. It's all time
talent and treasure, even just sometimes sending a happy email
saying thanks for what you guys do you know how happy that makes
me happier than $50? Let me tell you that it makes me feel really
good. So then we gamified it because Jean said, Hey, I made
$1,000 on a nightly I got nothing else, you know, I have
nothing to aspire to. Oh, well, why don't we just do periods
what comes after night Vikon. What comes after that Baronet
will come after that Baron. So every $1,000 in aggregate and it
could be over 10 years, it doesn't matter. Even someone who
donates $10 a month, eventually they become a knight as long as
we stay in business, it is a very fair system, because people
only will support you what they find the product is worth. If
they don't like it, they won't donate. But if you don't ask,
they won't donate either. And if it's not an outstanding product,
they will not support you. And you have to continuously be
reminding people, this is how we make it work. This is why this
show is here. It's just as much your show as it is our show.
This also circumvents another problem, the the you need to do
this because otherwise I'm unsubscribing I'm not gonna send
you any money anymore. This is why I don't like subscriptions.
Because then people think that they can say, Well, you
shouldn't be doing this, you know, you're you're biting the
hand that feeds you. Now, in this case, we do exactly what we
do. We believe it's a great product. If you don't like it,
then you have no value, then why are you even listening, you
shouldn't be supporting us at all go away. And and I'll say it
that way, it's fine. So we built this up over these years. And
we've learned a couple things along the way. Numerology is
very important. I think that's carried over very well to the
value for value streaming, SATs and boosting SATs and booster
grams. As we see by the numbers, people love reasons to donate.
We also send out a newsletter to remind them before every single
show, the newsletter contains content. But basically it's Hey,
we're doing the show support us. I'm not going to be bashful
about it and, and divorce looks much worse than I am. So here we
are. 17 years later, I'm going to be 60 this year, John's in
his 70s. And we're still doing phenomenally well, for a
podcast, we have according to Opie three stats around the
900,000 downloaders learned if you can't say listener,
downloaders, unique audience, whatever it is, and, and, and,
you know, we've never really had any horrible issues throughout
all those years, it goes up and down. Yeah. So you can't, you
know, if you if you make a nice bundle one show, don't blow it
all. Because it may dip a little bit based upon vacations,
holidays, all kinds of stuff, tax time, right before tax time
horrible right after tax time people get their returns, they
start donating. So there's all these things that you learn over
time. It will be very disappointing if you start
putting in a minimum amount that people have to pay, because
people will then only pay that amount. I know this from
experience. So but if you don't ask, and if you don't thank
people however you do it. And I think that you don't have to
have exactly our our system. But it what we are not doing here.
So when when we created podcasting two point out the
index, and the namespace, the namespace was really to put in
the lightning payments that you know, we needed a namespace, and
I think was it chapters that we that we put in there from all
the other namespace that we that we took that from the pod log,
what was it? Oh,
Dave Jones: yeah, yeah, well, that was the whole feed. Yeah,
in theory chapters, right.
Adam Curry: But it was really to get this going and then over
time that evolved into booster grams, which is now replicating
with almost zero friction is replicating the idea of a PayPal
payment with a note in the message. Right. So that is how
value for value works. And you can listen to no agenda you can
listen to well Even this show, it is not. And so now we're
going to move over to I was listening to Sam with January,
Daniel J. Lewis, talking about activity streams, which is
something I'm very interested in and integrating activity pub, I
need to get Sam Sethi off the idea that the T O V record is
somehow trying to be what activity streams is. It's not,
it is a purely a message in a payment. That works exactly like
a message in a PayPal payment. We're not trying to jam all
kinds of stuff in there. It is a beautiful, seamless,
frictionless way to replicate the functionality of a PayPal
payment within with a message. It is also so and I heard this
said and it really disturbed me. It is not a comment with the
payments. No, it is a support that can have a note with it.
It's not a comment with a payment. It's the other
Dave Jones: way around. It's
Adam Curry: the other way around. It's a nation with a
common Yes. And if we're if we're treating it just like so.
Apparently, there's some outfit that's in Los Angeles,
pocket.fm. And they raised you know, 100 million dollars and
they're doing microtransactions. It's not value for value, that
is microtransactions. The value for value is it is a
monetization system. It is a programming format. It is not
the microtransactions is just what it does. But when you force
people to pay X amount, you're going to be disappointed. Look
at all the streamers it's not working, you will ultimately
only have one streaming or maybe two, and everything else will be
rolled into it. I can predict the future. I'm from the future.
Trust me on this, it's already falling apart. So TLVs are not
where we want to put activity stuff. In fact, the TLV record
is very limited. You know, there's only so much space, it
was perfect for what it's doing right now. Absolutely perfect.
heli pad is a reader. It's like looking at my PayPal. In fact,
it looks exactly like PayPal. It has it has all the payments, the
name the amount and if I click on it, I can see the message.
That's what it is. Now there's other things that it can do. But
that's in essence what it does this the TLV record for for
streaming payments and boosts and booster grams. That's it now
go and listen to I'll give an example this week in Bitcoin
listen to it, what he's doing over there. He started from zero
he's already doing 100 Sometimes a couple $100 an episode in SATs
because he's doing the thank you segment. He's also saying this
is what makes the show work. You need to support me not send me a
booster gram send me a note haha, I'll read it. Or it's a
comment because happens to show up on fountain. That's not what
it is.
One other thing, because this also came up in in the future
podcasting podcast. The payments are inherently public. This is
not what you send a private message to your podcaster. So
let's get off the whole idea of Oh, it's a privacy issue that
multiple people get the message? No, it's inspirational and
aspirational. Go look at any crowdfunding site. What do you
see? You see name, amount and maybe a message. And why does
that work? Why do they do that? Because people like Oh, looks
like everyone's given 100 bucks, I'll give 100 bucks. Or you know
what? I feel like I should give more give 200 bucks. Can I make
myself anonymous? Well, yes, and V for V payments in apps are
inherently anonymous. You can put whatever name you want in
there. So all these things are important if you want to make
the full value for value system work. If you're skipping steps,
if you're not understanding the guy, hit me up. I'll explain
that to you again, privately. If you don't understand the whole
system, it will not work for you and you're going to get exactly
what you deserve. That's why when I hear people still saying
tipping, no, it's not a tip. If you're asking for tips, then
you're gonna get tip money. You need to speak specifically about
the support. This is not for everybody. And not everybody has
a podcast that will be good enough that enough people listen
and care about it. They're going to support it. That is the value
for value system. Value for value dot info. You can review
it. There's guides there's there's detailed examples of how
it works. You can in fact turn this into a lifestyle
Dave Jones: I think we're, I think there's some fundamental
misunderstandings that financially with with things and
it's under, it's just it is understandable to me how those
things can get misinterpreted. One is that one of the
misunderstandings is that things is that there's a fundamental
difference between the audience behavior, when you're
advertising supported, when you're when you're value for
value, or when you are subscription based human
behavior. So, in the, in the, in the economics world, this would
be called like a praxeology. Human behavior is always is the
same. A human is going to behave finance in within in regards
like financially, we each were each unique. And we're always
going to operate according to our own manner, our own
personality, with regard, whether it's advertising based,
whether the content we're listing is advertising based,
subscription based, or whatever. And so what I mean by that is,
we, you think that, okay, if I just put a minimum, if I'm
making the minimum, which is essentially a subscription, if I
may, if that if I don't do that, people are just going to be,
they're just going to listen to my stuff for free. Well, that
your that doesn't fundamentally change how many people listen to
your stuff. So like, what I mean by that is, a person who's not
going to pay you anything, is just never going to listen to
your show period. Like you don't get anything from extra from
that you're not, you're not creating a customer where there
was not one before, you've already produced the content. So
having 10 extra people listened to it doesn't mean that those 10
people would have paid you if you had made it a subscription.
Like you're not getting more for that. Correct, because it's and
then it's but but it's also the same with advertising. So just
because you're advertising the advertising, and I want to talk
about this a lot more. When we talk about pod verse. I mean,
the advertising thing just puts a layer of fog over this whole
process, you You appear to be making making more money. And a
woman you are I'm not necessarily the same but you
appear it, it takes that whole thing and it puts a layer of
option obfuscation between it, it's sort of like it's sort of
like paying you're going to the doctor and paying them directly
versus paying them through an insurance company. Now there's a
middle now there's a middle layer, yes. And what it does is,
is it it just like a health insurance layer, it takes the it
takes what would be a sort of a sliding scale of variable
income. And it just chops you off at the knees. Once you go
below a certain level. People below a certain amount of
listeners don't get any advertising revenue whatsoever.
Everybody above a certain, a certain amount of listeners, or
downloads, which is haha, everybody above that certain
number gets 99% of the revenue. So it's not, it's not like any
of these things are fundamentally different. What
you're doing with value for value is you're saying, okay,
look, the people who are going to who I'm going to ask to
support me, who are always going to be the people who love my
content the most those people, they're going to pay me no
matter what. But if I don't put artificial limits on them, and I
give them the freedom to pay me when they want and how much they
want. It respects them enough yes to four I can I can enjoy
the full range of their generosity, whether this month
there, they may be only able to send me a couple of bucks next
month, they may be send me a couple 100 bucks because COVID
happened in Nam Now a very important voice in their life to
give them calm or all these sorts of things that that you
become important to a listener. So I mean, I just don't I think
it might help to get out of this mindset that putting that making
your content subscription or going with advertising
fundamentally changes the the Creator listener financial
relationship, all you're doing is you're not changing the way
that that listener is going to be willing to support you. All
you're doing is putting various layers of obfuscation over
something that's fundamentally ultimately the same. The same
process
Adam Curry: if millions of YouTubers can incessantly ask
people All, too smash that like button hips that hit subscribe,
and make sure you click on the bell, you can easily say please
hit the boost button. How hard how I mean, how hard is it? It's
and they say the same thing you really support the podcast why?
Because you need to have 10,000 subscribers and then you can get
into the AdSense program, etc, etc etc. One other thing that I
should mention that kind of what I learned what I learned from
this, this early experience is I cannot determine what someone
thinks is valuable or what valuable means to them. Yeah,
valuable when someone sends me $5 I'm just as happy. Thank you
for the value as I am for $5,000 Because I know that that person
put I just all I asked was what do you think it's worth? And $5
Maybe a lot to somebody, bribe and 5000 Maybe nothing to
somebody else.
Dave Jones: The Yeah, and the other thing is set, SATs
Satoshis Bitcoin, the boosting all that stuff that that that is
a distinct thing that is not value for value. But you could
you could take with somebody could create an app tomorrow.
This says I'm going to create it somebody can create an app that
has subscription based podcasting, podcasting, and you
unlock the episodes with boosts. That is not so so inept payment,
boosting Satoshis Bitcoin streaming, all that kind of
stuff. That is all a technology. The for V is not a technology.
It's it's a paradigm, though. Thank you. And so like when you
and that's a very fundamental misunderstanding that a lot of
people have when they when they're talking about podcasting
2.0. You know, agenda doesn't do boosting for value for value.
Nope. The is only pay pal. So they're they're fundamentally
separate things. The thing that what what the whole reason we
did lightning value for value in app payment, excuse me
lightning, Bitcoin, in app payments, is because of this
problem of PayPal, locking down, censoring people throwing deep
platforming people threatening to charge people if they donated
to a show that later became, you know, put on some sort of list.
It was a real shocker. So we needed a way to go directly from
listener to creator without going through any intermediaries
that in that boosting in app payments, that kind of thing.
That is a that is a non middleman and anti de
platforming technology is what that is also, that is not the
for V
Adam Curry: Correct. Also, it's programmable money, and we could
do all this cool stuff because of its programmability we never
had that we still don't have that with with with PayPal, this
is just not there. So the programmability is what really
makes it fly and the decentralized nature of it, etc.
But yes, in the in the beginning, the genesis was
definitely this is an index that will not be platform you and you
can also if you are willing to adopt the value for value
lifestyle and take a vow of poverty for the foreseeable
future. Then it but at the same time enjoy the pure the sheer
joy of seeing Satoshis dripping is funny. I'll give an example.
Tina, my wife and I we started a podcast 78 episodes ago and
after somewhere around episode 25 I think we said we were doing
it once every two weeks it let's do it every single let's let's
do this for real. And we talk about God, whine, husband and
wife staff. I think it's a pretty good a pretty good
product. We have according to OP three I think about 11,000
unique audience members on a monthly basis. So this four
shows a week. We take PayPal, we take the V streaming SATs and
booster grams and and we're not in apple. Okay, we're not even
in apple which was on purpose because I wanted to launch a
pure V for V show. Although we did add Pay Pal later. Because a
lot of church folk are like technology and say okay, I'm
going to teach you don't worry. Yeah, and we're doing $400 A
show And we're only on show 78 I think a lot of people who are
doing podcasts would say, Where do I sign for that? Now? Is it
because it's Adam curry bull crap? No. But we have cultivated
our audience. We read their messages, their notes. By the
way, people send us wine people send us other things, which to
us is just as valuable. We'd love that. It's another way of
providing value back. It works.
Dave Jones: It's not because it's Adam curry IK. If it was, I
would listen to the show. I don't I'm not occurring the
keeper listener. Like it's not a it's not a cult. It's not a cult
of personality thing. It's that's a brand new show that
started from from Greengrass. Yeah, yeah, that this This is,
yeah, this is this is important. It's just, I think it's easy to
to misunderstand these things and begin to drift. I think. I
think this is an important thing to like, Reese recenter. You
know, refocus things from time to time. So okay, this, Nina
likes it because it's easy to drift off course,
Adam Curry: it very easy and and the more you ask, the more you
shall receive. I mean, it's really true. I mean, this is
look at your own life. Eventually you see the the
GoFundMe for something so many times you like, you'll start to
think like, I should probably support that. And then you go
and do it. And you and you go look at the site like oh, look
at all these beautiful messages. People are saying, Look at all
this, oh, this is cool. Look that mean, now they also they
also have goals and all that stuff, which you could do. But
then look at this project itself, it started from zero for
months, we paid it out of our own pocket, you know, we set up
all those little servers that was sucking out Apple's
database. That was cool. We're not scraping, though we acted
like we were clients. And that's why it took months because we
didn't try and Jack it all out. You know, we had people like
Chris Chris, I seen the sweetest trickler, who would send us you
know, all kinds of subscriptions, all kinds of
people were contributing to that. That's your time, talent
and treasure. And then over time, as the hosting companies
saw what benefit we were to their business, enter their
lives, their livelihoods. So they see value in what we do.
They've become our biggest supporters. But also app
developers have become some of our biggest supporters. So now
you can say if we had just said, meow, and nothing, or just had
on the website, a donate button, this project will
Dave Jones: be over. Oh, yeah, wouldn't have lasted three
months. But we have a real
Adam Curry: ask. And we put an hour we have a couple $1,000 We
put in ourselves and now it just runs itself. Now, we also don't
need to live off of this. And we don't. So no. So it's a
particular value proposition. But we're very clear about it.
And we thank people, we're very grateful we thank people.
Anyway,
Dave Jones: that's your the there was an article in the Wall
Street Journal on LinkedIn this morning about the Atlantic
newspaper, magazine, the Latin magazine, and how they became
they went from basically sucking wind in huge debt to now they're
profitable. And that I liked, the whole article is very good.
Lots of good stuff in there. Now, of course, their
subscription based thing it's not they're not value for value.
But one of the bests, like I said is ultimately this is not
these things aren't different. You're just you just have to
realize that when you're when you go subscription based, and
you don't go value for value. When you go under subscriptions.
You You're just leaving, you're leaving money on the table. I
think a lot. A lot. Yes, I think a lot too. And you're in and
you're also not fully respecting your listeners.
Adam Curry: Look at Leo with the twit network with the club twit.
He's so close yet he can't bring himself to ask him to join Club
twit. And you'll know it's $7 You know, and then it says that
you can give more. No, no, everybody's in club to it.
Support he would he would be okay. If he just he can't
because he can't get over the asking part. And yeah, there'll
be people that email you or post on on X or whatever and say
you're begging for money. Okay, yeah, that's fine. No, all
right.
Dave Jones: Well, this this the one quote I liked the most in
that Atlantic article said. Their editor in chief said we
believe as an almost ideological and idealistic notion that we
make something worth by Yes. But it's it basically he said they
went from just begging for advertising revenue by
Adam Curry: by creating lots of output because that's what you
have to do. And
Dave Jones: then and then and then being a slave to the CPM
and to Google to Google's ad search for me, basically, from
that to a different mindset of we think that our stuff is
Adam Curry: valuable. Yes, there it is. There it is.
Dave Jones: You know, and that's, that's, it has worked.
Yeah, they're, they're profitable again, and they're
not they're not about on the you know, the verge of bankruptcy.
You know, from that thing, but I think this is a you know, if I
can, if I can sort of swerve swerve us into talking about all
the stuff that song about pod verse and downloads versus
listens, and then sharing sure
Adam Curry: the floor is yours.
Dave Jones: If I don't die first, don't die now. Okay.
Let's see. Well, okay. I've got a hadn't had an opening
statement. But now I have a pre a pre opening statement. Thanks
to as you would say, there is no there are no coincidences in the
kingdom. No, sir. Mo pod. I don't know if you saw this. I
did not. This article from from Bloomberg from Ashley Carmen. So
it came out she wrote this article yesterday saying that
she she had breast she's the one that broke a while back. This in
game mobile ads, downloads stuff.
Adam Curry: Oh, the game stuff. Yeah,
Dave Jones: yeah. In Game mobile ads that would trigger a
download. Well, it's, she kind of she broke a similar story
yesterday. Then it's, it's about some a similar type of scan for
this company mo pod is they the way this works is they'll give
you if you sign up for the seat, this kind of secret service that
they don't actually advertise, they go, they they they talk
they contact you about it evidently and say hey, we can do
this for you. But it's not a product that you can see on
their website or any anywhere publicly. They will ask for a
$5,000 minimum spend. They will put, they will put ads into
games. to incent that basically is we'll reward gamers with in
game stuff like an in game purchase, like an in game
reward. If they click through the ad to Apple podcasts and
follow a podcast. They click through it opens Apple podcasts
to a particular podcast, they click the Follow button. Then
they go back to the game and they get rewarded for the
follow. So they're essentially incentivizing gamers in in game
to go follow a podcast even if they have no intention, or no
interest in this podcast whatsoever. They're just doing
it so they can get a new skin for their character or whatever.
So evidently, this is this is a big deal, she said. Mo pods
assistance can be seen all over Apple's podcast charts over the
past week and a half identified at least 37 podcasts being
advertised through in game rewards provided by Mo pod,
including shows from prominent creators and networks like
wondering Netflix iHeartMedia limonada and Alex Cooper have
call her daddy. In fact, the top 50 shows in the US. Yes of the
top 50 shows in the US spotted yesterday, I saw nine that had
been promoted in game. So 20 nearly 20% of the top 50 shows
are using this. This trick to boost their download numbers.
Yeah. Yeah, the these are scams. Yes. It's just Chesterton. Okay,
so is I'm reading heretics right now. But GK Chesterton, it is
talking about the Irish author George Moore, he used this
phrase that Moore was in a perpetual state of temporary
honesty. This is the this is the podcast metrics industry, a
perpetual state of temporary honesty. I mean, even so you can
say even when a download is this is again, this is my pre opening
statement, even when a download is legitimate. It comes from the
app. A human being opened Apple podcast, tap to the Follow
button. They did all of that. It still bogus downloads as
listens, in any form is a lie. It's just fundamentally a lie.
It you know, the in pretending it's anything else is is
dishonest. Yes, you add best fog. Yeah. So now for my opening
statement.
Adam Curry: Would you like some reverb?
Dave Jones: Just kidding. Yeah, yes. I want to take a drink.
Adam Curry: Could you give it the name of that book again that
you're reading? Oh, heretics
Dave Jones: by GK Chesterton is only good ahead and lay my cards
upon the cards on the table at front and
Adam Curry: you want to want to explain the issue so people know
what we're talking about. Okay. Opening statement. You have five
minutes. Oh, God. I'm doing my C span Senate hearing. Reclaiming
my time? Yep.
Dave Jones: The the issue that I'm talking about is a couple of
two or three weeks ago, I forgot how, how many again now. But pod
pod versus pod verse there embedded webplayer came under
fire from some people on podcast index dot social, for auto
download for auto downloading on page load. Essentially what what
Mitch was doing is he had the audio html5 tag attribute on the
embedded player set to preload equals metadata. So that he
could get the length of the episode.
Adam Curry: And the reason if I can just interject my
understanding the pod verse, embeddable player is for clips.
And instead of chopping up a clip of making a new file, you
load that web player, it then looks at the entire length knows
the timecode goes right to it. So when you hit play, it'll
start playing the podcasts at that point in the file. That's
what I understood. So it's, it's not just a listen to my whole
podcast in this player. It's specifically for clips. Yes.
Dave Jones: Okay. Yes, that's exactly right. So that that was
the argument that Mitch said, Mitch, Mitch made. So in Mitch,
Mitch mitches arguments, he needs an app, he needs accurate
audio duration, you know, to for that slider on the page, to
determine you know, where the clips are going to land. And to
make a nice user experience, our RSS durations, and feeds the
time, the times that are put into the duration tag that
attends duration tag, those are those are completely out of I
mean, they're horrible. They're inaccurate. As soon as you put
in a dynamically inserted ad, they're, they're automatically
wrong. Now, you, anybody who parses RSS feeds, or has in the
past knows that these durations cannot be trusted, that at best,
they're 20% reliable. So therefore, pre loading the audio
on the page to get the time to get the eight the length. If
that's what you want in your product, you want that that
length to be accurate on the screen. That's the only way you
can do it. And it's it's the only way you can do it rely on h
and HTML provides a mechanism to do that. So there's simply no
other way using modern tooling to know the actual duration of a
remote audio content without retrieving the whole thing. That
you that's just a fact. You have a if you have a product if you
have a product that really needs that information to be correct,
you don't have any other options. So like the in a
primary reason for that is because of these dynamically
inserted ads. So So and that's also the primary argument
against pre loading the audio is because it messes up download
stats. So you have the you have the advertising arm of the of
podcasting, creating a problem through dynamic add in Session
II messing up the duration, and then bitching at people for
using the only available workaround for a problem they
themselves created. So you screw up the duration, then you gripe
IT people for pre loading the audio so they can get the
accurate duration that you screwed up. Here's an here's an
idea, solve your own damn problem while stopped demanding
other people do it for you and mess their product up so that
you can get stats that you made it hard to get in the first
place.
Adam Curry: My objection to the whole conversation was twofold.
One is the notion that advertising is keeping this
whole industry afloat. No, that's not true. hosting
companies and podcast app developers are keeping
podcasting alive. That there is some unwritten contract suddenly
that I'm unaware of as the inventor, co inventor of
podcasting, I'm also unaware of this. There is no contract,
there is no unwritten contract contracts or contracts. You
know, go ask Ukraine, go ask, go ask Russia. If a contract that
is unwritten is a real contract when we said oh, don't worry, we
won't bring NATO in any closer to you. And then we didn't put
it in the contract. And that we literally the United States says
it wasn't we didn't write it down the contract. So we can do
whatever we want. It's not a contract. And advertising came
in later. And it may be keeping your industry afloat, but it is
not keeping podcasting afloat.
Dave Jones: It's like banner is so this, this reminds me of
banner ads that started allowing JavaScript to execute on the
page. And then, you know, shocker. Browsers start getting
hijacked with with with, with spyware. By doing, you know,
paid shenanigans. And then the advertising industry griping
that people are using ad blockers, or ads that are ads
that when they don't load, successfully break the page
layout where you can't even read the page and you have to keep
reloading like this. This is you know, fix your if you're the
advertising industry, fix your broken tech first, then come
back and let's tall, you know, anything else is just is just
griping. Really, Mitch, in in Mitch said. Mitch said he said
from the beginning he said I have no problem with people
tossing pod verse out of all their stats charts across the
board, or podcasters blocking pod verse altogether. You know,
he's like, if you if you don't want to be in if you don't want
us in your stats, that's fine. Just take us out. I don't care.
It's no sweat off my back. We're an open source program software.
We don't take. We don't have any sort of, we're not obligated to
anybody financially, I don't care. At that point. The case is
closed
Adam Curry: as the legendary John C. Dvorak once said, it's
no
Dave Jones: sweat off my balls. Whoever wants to get his blog,
pod verse is problem. So creator is respected. If the Creator
doesn't want that shows to show up, they can just block pod
verse is everything is fine. Stats. Stats can just be they
can be gamed, as we've as we've seen time after time after time,
you know, with
Adam Curry: and where's the outrage today? Where's the
outrage about mo pod? I didn't hear any outrage. Where's the
outrage? About apple? The only outrage we hear about Apple's
iOS 17 is well they really screwed up the industry. Yeah,
because it was phony baloney. And we all knew it. We knew it
because of the dare I say glitch. That happened several
versions earlier that dropped everybody's stats by pretty much
the same as what is now done by intent.
Dave Jones: What what do podcast apps get from these charts
anyway? Nothing is always apple. The charts are always the same
Apple and Spotify with these nice clean lines up at the top
and then everybody else basically clumped into a rainbow
at the bottom of the chart that you came to discern. And
Adam Curry: I'm colorblind I can't look at these charts and I
have no idea what who's who anymore.
Dave Jones: It might be it might as well just be labeled other
you know, just for everybody else we lived through. We lived
through Apple Core media for you years and years. Yeah, I mean,
the iOS 17. Download pocalypse, which nobody saw come in the you
know, I heart and now mo pod in game advertising scams that
nobody understood until they were broke until a news article
was written about him. But trust us as long as the 50 most used
podcast app, web embed stops pre loading, then everything's fine.
You know, I mean, like it's this
Adam Curry: standard? Well, no, I think it's something else. And
I understand it. So and I'll give them this. It's frustration
that is vented at an easy target. Because the frustration
is the frustration of not having a reliable listening statistic,
knowing when someone heard an ad, and all these other things
that affect downloads, it was just an easy way to vent
frustration. And that's how I saw it. And that's why I stayed
out. But when I heard about some respect the Creator respect the
Creator, well, why don't you take out your silence, skipping
and yours and your speed button? That's not respecting my art.
Dave Jones: But we all use ad blockers in our web browser.
Yeah.
Adam Curry: But that's not respecting anybody.
Dave Jones: Like it really it but we, but we, you know, we
understand this is messing up clean stats for creators on the
web. But we do it anyway, we justify it through all kinds of
various arguments, some of which are valid, but we use a
different standard in podcasting, you may expect apps
to never mess up stats on behalf of their user experience. Yeah,
you know, even though we do and in our browsers all day long,
you know, we we say, well, this, you know, this, this website is
just it's just unreadable without an ad blocker. Okay,
well, maybe, maybe the same thing applies to podcasting.
You're, you don't get to this spot. Podcasting does not get to
be a special snowflake. Baker has anything done
Adam Curry: wrong, we basically have an ad blocker, it's called
the 32nd. Skip. We have that's what everyone uses it for.
Everybody knows is bogus. The industry knows that everybody
knows it. This is why in advertising, we say half of my
advertising budget is working. I just don't know which half
because you don't
Dave Jones: tons of email. Clients now block tracking
pixels. Oh, yeah, for sure. That's not respecting the
creators, quote unquote. I mean, we I just the the podcasting
measurement side of things. They're uncom, sometimes
completely unreasonable. They expect podcasting to be treated
completely different than the west of the way we treat the
internet. Like Marco. Marco, started ignoring prefixes a
while back. And the reason he did it, he reversed it. But the
reason he started doing that, in overcast, was because some of
these prefixes were getting added to Black Hole lists. Yeah.
Adam Curry: And it was growing up. Yeah. screwing up the whole.
Okay. Yeah, that's all right. Add. Okay. Stop talking about
add, yeah, I speak dog. Yeah.
Dave Jones: And so like something something like
charitable would get on an ad blocker list. And now all of a
sudden, overcast download fails.
Adam Curry: Well, this is also what screwed up the twit
network. If you read what Lisa Laporte wrote, which I can't,
because she blocked me. Where she says everybody has their own
ad tech. And then you have, you know, 15 different prefixes and
trackers, and then all of a sudden one of them breaks and
you lose everything.
Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly. And that, it, it he reversed that
decision and stopped doing that. But that's not the important
part. The principle is that he, of what he did, is that he chose
what his ie shows what was best for his customer first, like so.
advert, you know, ad supported ad supported podcasters have a
customer. And that customer is the advertiser. That's right.
That's who they sell to. That's why advertisers are called
buyers. That's right. The advertiser is buying what the
podcaster is selling. App developers also have a customer,
that customer is the listener. That's who they sell their
product to. Only a small percentage of active podcasts
are supported by advertising. Advertising is not in any way, a
necessary component of podcasting. It's just the
business plan of some podcasters. Amen. And you cannot
expect an app developer to break their user experience for the
their customer, so that a small percentage of podcasters can not
have any problems. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work that way. It's
not realistic. It's not fair. And an add on, there's no
argument that's going to convince me otherwise. I mean,
using downloads as a listening statistics as as listener
statistics, it's always been a mess. It's always had a limited
lifespan, it's going to fail. Ultimately, it's already every
time one of these big things happens when you know, like his
house, I was 17. Or in game at any one time one of these big
issues happens. The pawn the the real download numbers keep going
down and down and down. And we look back and we say, Oh, we
never we never knew that that was happening.
Adam Curry: What was gambling going on?
Dave Jones: Yeah. You know, I agree with with people like
James and John Spurlock that not preloading gives cleaner stats,
I agree. In, in the, in the absence of a compelling reason
not to sit in preload to none, is a courteous thing to do I get
I agree with that. You're, you're you're just gonna kind of
play nice, so to speak. And I don't want to ignore that. But
Mitch has said, he has a compelling reason what to him is
a compelling reason. And that's, that's enough. It's the case,
case closed. People on both shots. So people on both sides
of that equation, the the advertising side, in the
listener side, people on both sides should do what's best for
their own customers. And in advertisers, in my opinion,
advertisers need to advocate for a better standard. In podcast
app developers should code the best user experience that go if
you're an advertiser, and you're dependent on download numbers,
and you're all up in arms because it because they're not
accurate. You're barking up the wrong tree. You need to go
advocate for a better standard.
Adam Curry: Well, there's one on the horizon. And I like it. I
like it a lot for a whole bunch of reasons, because I think it
can help everybody. And this is where I take it to the high
note. Get us out of the pit. That's right. I'm crawling out
of the hole with you Dave. You grabbed my hand. I'm gonna eat
some chocolate. All right, you eat some chocolate by the way.
There's a severe cocoa shortage. Oh,
Dave Jones: as yesterday ration this. Oh, you better hurry is a
little bit of a big piece. I mean, it has has easier.
Adam Curry: activity streams, I think is a dynamite idea. I
really love the idea. I've listened to the podcast. I've
researched it. Please stop telling me it's a W three
standard, therefore it's the best bullcrap. It's. I'm so
tired of that argument. The donate three. See, I'm already
I'm already in SAMSA Thea, Bharti and I like the idea
Dave Jones: that what is that? The most important thing about
selling is knowing when to stop selling. Yes.
Adam Curry: Don't Don't sell the app I've already bought in to
stop, don't sell beyond that. What is it selling beyond the go
beyond the sale, whatever it is. The activity pub, I'm really
convinced mainly because of its adoption, its maturity, its
adoption, I'd say there's millions of people who have a
mastodon account, ergo, millions of people who have an activity
pub account that can be used right now today, to do the very
first thing, the simplest thing in the world, which some apps
have already pretty much implemented, which is comments.
And I'm not going to call it cross app comments for a reason,
just comments. And it has everything built into it that we
want, including them moderation. You know, the full maturity of
what Mastodon has shown us how activity pub can work, follow,
you know, like all these different things, it's all in
there. We have a unique opportunity to blow everybody
out of the water as a group by making it comments that show up
on every single app. And by the way, I understand activity
streams in activity pub, we already have some activity
streams they are follow, like boost. Comment. We already have
the bridge with the podcast index. So we have all the
elements set we have the route post concept which we which
we've been doing for two years on this show, and I do them
every single show I always put in a route comment. And you can
see how that works on podcast index you can see go to comments
click on it, you can drop down you see the comments, but we
have never done to my knowledge Well, except for an embedded
page like an iframe on curio caster is the EU would you like
to comment on this episode? Login with your activity pub
account Mastodon, the fill in the blank. Mastodon won't be the
simplest for people I've heard of mastodon? Or would you like
to create one? Once we have that, then we can immediately
out of the gate, as a group show something that goes way beyond
the people who are using Apple and Spotify, they'll feel left
out? Oh, I can't comment on all I can comment I see this guy's
at the end, you'll get FOMO is part of it. Yes. Now, as a part
of this, we can start to build. So before we get all jacked
about all the activity, stream verbs and everything, if we can
just get this one thing going. And I don't think there's a
single concern that any developer can have about dealing
with comments. Because now it's completely up to the Creator.
Respect the Creator. As to how that's managed, moderated. You
could remove the whole post, there's a whole bunch of things
you can do. Thank you. Once we get that going, then you can add
all kinds of things such as bliss and time. And when people
are comfortable, and then of course, you need to be
transparent and say, Would you like to add your listen time,
here are the benefits to you, here's the benefit to your
podcasts or that you're listening to. Now all of a
sudden, we can give some real data, some real statistics, to,
to advertisers to podcasters, whatever you want, because it
will be it'll be transparent, it will be managed by the
podcaster. And the listener. I think true fans already has this
built in where you can, you can determine what you want what you
want to turn on or off. Not Not everybody will do it. But I
think a lot of people will if you ask appropriately. And you
will initially have a blended statistic with your downloads or
whatever you want. But over time, I think you will see that
that is a and this is where the industry can step in. The
industry can step in and say yeah, this is a good idea. Even
Apple could do it. Even Apple, they won't, but they could. And
now all of a sudden we are 20 apps all doing this. And now
we're forced to be reckoned with because not just one app, we're
just you know, some download stats, but we can get a pretty
good idea with a blend of downloads, etc. So if people
actually heard your pitch, your ad, your whatever, I wouldn't
mind knowing exactly where people listen, I have those
statistics. I know a subset, a subset of people listens to
shows and I can see oh, this is where they drop off. This is
where they came back. I mean, it's it's enough data for me.
It's not I'm not looking for CPMs. But we can do a lot of
stuff. And this is the future. Now the biggest problem we have
is noster because there's so many cycles being wasted on
noster. To in essence create the same thing. All I can think of
is to ask you, is there a way that we can bridge noster with
verbs into activity pub, so that people who are really setting
I'm looking at you, Oscar, people who are really bought
into Nasir for for whatever reason, which is fine. Can we
bridge the activity verbs the verbs into activity pub, so that
we can welcome them? welcome that development. Because
there's a lot to be said for for having your Nasir identity.
There's a lot to be said for it. But when it comes to the
maturity and the adoption of activity pub, you're a million
miles away. Worse, you're 10 years away. So if we can figure
that out, I think it'd be great because I'd love to see the
cycles of people like Oscar coming into doing this and
participating in it because without them it's just going to
be harder.
Dave Jones: So you have been handsome Hold on discussions
with people about about various things as we always do, and I'm
not that bothered about the like, do you like Jupiter
broadcasting and fountain they're doing this live
experiment where it's like live commenting on their show,
basically an info chat room type of deal, like our, like IRC type
of deal, but in but in like a web page, but then it's, but
it's through noster. And so I say through nostre, it's using
the nostril protocol, but currently, fountains noster
experimental relay is not public. So it's it's really just
very much a beta alpha type experiment that they're doing
now. Now Oscar said that he's going to open this up and make
the fountain relay public. As soon as he gets it stable to
where he feels like it's, it's ready to be to be pounded on a
little bit. And this, this doesn't bother me that much that
on the nostril side of things, I'm not a nostril fan, but I'm
not going to be pugnacious about it either. I mean, there's there
is there's I'm looking for an A for an escape hatch out of the
pugnacity of Dobbs,
Adam Curry: Hairston firestop pugnacious definition ready and
able to resort to force or violence. pugnacious. Okay, got
it.
Dave Jones: I think there's in general, too much of that
between noster and everybody else on the planet. So I'm
looking for
Adam Curry: this is the problem who's pugnacious,
Dave Jones: all of us, we're all we're all combative about
things. So I think if we is I'm not that bothered by what, by
their experiment? Because I know that we can, we can just bridge
it. Right, which is my question. Yes. And so that's, that was my
long answer to your question. To which I think we can just Britt,
for any of these. Here's my mindset on things like this is
like, any, there's always going to be these little silos of
things that happen in I mean, let's let's be real noster
there's millions of activity pub users, there's maybe 10,000,
nostril users. Maybe. I mean, that's, that's might be a
stretch already. I don't know. But it's very, very small, based
on the numbers that I've seen. So there's always I consider
nostre to be sort of like this proprietary thing over here.
But, but they are public. I mean, they have public relays.
So we can bridge it. So if, if if Oscar wants to do his
experiment over there with noster? You know, I don't mind
writing some software that will pull that stuff out back into
activity pub, it's already been done to the Moscow bridge.
Exactly. We know it's doable, in in a, and I'm just thinking that
there's always going to be these little things like that, for
instance. If you've been trying to think of an example, okay,
for instance, if Buzzsprout wanted to have their have like
their own in, in house, live chat, or, or rss.com wanted to
have their own in house comments or whatever, that people could
post back on to a podcasters web page. That might we could build
a bridge for that. I'm not going to go to them and say, Well, you
know, you have to do it this way. You have to do X protocol.
Because like, they know I agree to be in their game plan.
Adam Curry: That's what that's where I started I said, can we
bridge it because I just want to take the high road you took it
to pugnacious?
Dave Jones: No. You did use the P word.
Adam Curry: Did you pulled out the P word man. Dang.
Dave Jones: Let me like I just in general, I would like to calm
down the you know, calm down all of that stuff and try to be
because I know we can fix it with code. Monkey like you said
we can we can fix it with code.
Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah, I
Dave Jones: like that. I like that. Rather than rather than I
think what made me soften
Adam Curry: on this is your good nature and your loving heart.
Dave Jones: It is you knew he knew sweetie like it's like a
like an acre and they'll look on the sidewalk in in you know in
the spring you can just be step on any just squishes the what
has softened me on this is I think I'll see and all the the
Mitch pod verse stuff, animosity. You know I'm like
well, rather than griping and saying, you know, you're gonna
do it this way I'm gonna block you. Like, rather than doing
that we can say, you know, we'll just build some software and fix
it.
Adam Curry: Right.
Dave Jones: You know, we'll work around, we'll work around other
people's proclivities of what they want to do and will bring
that content out of their stuff back into back into the broader
thing that we're participating in or that we believe in.
Adam Curry: I'm all in I love it. Yeah, shall we play song?
Dave Jones: Oh man, that'd be great.
Adam Curry: This is what I chose today is a song that I heard on
this week in Bitcoin I figured what better way to show the
power of music and podcasting and to play it here as well two
weeks in Nashville This is moneymaker boy
Unknown: gotta go rounds I won't let this go No I am not your
money
you really get a message that good drugs that's true. Well let
this go no I'm not your money
you don't know me
so tell me how you like yourself that this goal no I am not your
money
so sick and tired of this CNC what you want but I won't ask me
I want this goal. No, I'm not your money
look this go. I won't I won't. I won't ever let this go.
Adam Curry: That's how you start a Friday. Wow,
Dave Jones: that's a that's a good song. Isn't that
Adam Curry: though speaking of pugnacious, pneus yeah, there's
a lot of pugnacious pneus in the music value for value world
against wave lake. And I would ask everybody to think about
what you're doing there. Because the best way to show that music
in podcasts and how it really works well is to not boycott
artists that happened to be on wave lake.
Dave Jones: So I didn't know that was high. This this is a
lot of pugnacious,
Adam Curry: pneus. And you're hurting the artists first of
all. And second of all, the more you do that, the more isolation
there is, where as I love showing everybody including the
artists on wave Lake and they know how to speak to artists
that they have a vibe going, you can't stop it. It's like tick
tock. You know, they wouldn't have to ban it in the United
States. If they could compete against it. Sometimes just you
can't do that. Just the if something catches a vibe and
people use it. Don't fight in, show them love. Show them love
and they will come running to you.
Dave Jones: With we need to we need to get rid of the
pugnacious pugnacious proclivities.
Adam Curry: liberties oh man to PS
Dave Jones: this Yeah, no, don't don't don't boycott people.
That's this
Adam Curry: now, but there's also just a vibe of verbiage
guys, no good, but you know, they approaching it from a
different perspective. I mean, look at what happened with with
Libsyn. Because we all bits lips, and now they they're now
that they hardly want to do anything, because you guys are
mean your bullies?
Dave Jones: Seriously, which, which I thought was interesting,
because what we've been told is that the reason that we they
weren't doing it was because there was no support in the
apps. Yeah. But now it's now that they're supporting the abs.
It's like, well, it's just really because you're mean.
Yeah. So I've never been mean, we've met with them. Yeah,
plenty. I mean, we've met we've met with them twice. And there's
Adam Curry: a lot there's a lot going on in telegram channels
and all kinds of places where people talk smack and then
Dave Jones: this is that is that is something I think maybe
people don't know, there's a lot of these. There's a lot of
these. There's a lot of secret Slack channels in the podcasting
world where certain people hang out, you know, like sort of the
gatekeepers of podcast and the podcast industrial complex, hang
out and like talk about stuff and talk about other people. But
that's that's the thing. I'm sure there's lots of things
being said in these channels that we're not aware of, because
even if invited I refuse to be a part of that kind of stuff. I
agree.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Should we thank a few people Dave so I can
get you out kind of on time. Oh, yes. So we are value for value.
You've heard all about it. I don't need to explain it. But
here's our Ask and our Thank you segment in the same way we
package it in one it's amazing. It's a twofer. It is a twofer.
Thank you very much anonymous for sending 3333 for the jam in
tune you just heard that always helps. The artists will love
that. Sir Brian have London 11,948 sets that is a nice
contribution and of course it is an Israeli freedom boost. He
says my entire extended family has no idea what the potholder
was doing in that songs video. Do you know about this pot
holder thing?
Dave Jones: Yeah, this is something that that Brian said
video that Brian sent with a guy had a he had a I did not know
this was called an oven glove. Yes. I just in the south we just
call everything a pot holder. It's just anything that keeps
your hand from getting burned. I think
Adam Curry: oven mitts in the UK have an MIT
Dave Jones: oven mitt. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cotton
Adam Curry: Gin row a duck's 2222 says You're welcome both.
Thank you. Blueberry with the boob boost 808 Dave really been
enjoying REO sets. They've been tearing it up out there. The
lighting designer we've been working with toured Elvis Ozzie
during Diary of a madman Rick James too many to name. Tune in
next Monday because I've got an interview recorded with him. We
also be interviewing Ryan Oh, caught lead singer for the 12
rods. April Fool's night is Pax. Yes, we will be willing gonna
have blueberry on the show next week, I
Dave Jones: believe. That's right. I love REO Speedwagon.
They're a great band.
Adam Curry: Then they're still out there. Apparently. I Can't
Fight This Feeling anymore. Right 1701 from Brian X minger,
he says finally able to listen live. Well. Thank you very much.
He's listening in a podcast guru by the way. I just wanted to say
we had we were talking about episode words.fm Man, I've been
using that I love
Dave Jones: it. It even us it's my tweet now it
Adam Curry: even works for live. Oh yeah, if you look at
Dave Jones: the AI No, that's what a tweet. Oh yeah, you know
I used to have all the different links in there for our live show
and I now just have that
Adam Curry: episodes.fm And it has the podcast apps do live
it's fantastic. Yeah, I love it. It's got an outstanding product
that was assumed to be bought by someone no doubt.
Dave Jones: It will be bought in
Adam Curry: 3333 from Chad F from boosted in from pod verse
Dred Scott 1234 So what is Dave saying that size does matter.
Okay. 3330 That was from pod verse EB chat F since 3333 from
curio caster, he says. We all know Korean the keeper is
popular because of Tina, aka the keeper aka the talent. Why yes.
Why? Yes. You're
Dave Jones: just the manager.
Adam Curry: I'm just managers. Producer producer. Yeah. 10,000
SATs from San Seth Sam Sethi coming in from true fans. He's
in Los Angeles right now by with I thought was very funny. Both
he and and James are appalled by the state of the Los Angeles
airport and downtown Los Angeles. Yeah, why do you think
everyone moved to Texas? They ruined the state.
Dave Jones: I got I got a an Uber a few months ago from some
from this lady. And I was talking about something about I
just gotten back from Dallas, I think in is that what it was? I
can't remember anyway. But I brought up gas prices and she
was like, she was like, Man, you don't know anything. She's like
I just got she said I'm moved here from A to Birmingham from
Los Angeles during COVID. Oh, yeah. And she was like gas was
like $7 a gallon. Yeah.
Adam Curry: There's a lot a lot wrong with Los Angeles. Yeah.
And
Dave Jones: I asked her I'm like what, you know, why did you
leave? She was like, I couldn't live there anymore. It's just
she was like it was just a hellhole. Yeah, too
Adam Curry: expensive and a hellhole. So Sam says next week,
my booths will appear in your social interact tag. All right.
Looking forward. Nice. Okay. And another 10,000 from Sam from
true fans. One click Apple Google Pay to SATs wallet is now
live. One click Apple Pay. Apple. Yeah, he's
Dave Jones: an app in app purchases. Some stats. Oh,
Adam Curry: excellent. App. That's a great
Dave Jones: way we got Sam coming on on let me see
Adam Curry: the 19th I think the 19th. Yes.
Dave Jones: He'll give gives the breakdown, right.
Adam Curry: For seven striper boost from hard hat boost and
Happy Easter. Yes, Good Friday. Happy Easter to y'all. Indeed.
dribs kappa Jesus went to happy Jesus 1234 He does it twice. And
he says boosting the heart out sorry. 12 year old brain had to
do it. That's right. We see them we had cold McCormick, the row
of ducks. 20 to 22 just watched the presentation from the
Patreon CEO at South by Southwest. He literally
describes podcasting 2.0 as the future of how the platform will
function for creators, but centralized we are early but so
from the future. Yes, indeed. We are. And then too late booths
coming in or one late booths coming in. Whoa. Eric, our dash
podcast. 80,000 SATs well that deserves 20 is Blaze only Impala
boosting for a possible hot database dashboard segment soon.
Yes, I had it on the list. We ran out of time, unfortunately.
Any initial feedback on the over the top podcast index, duplicate
dashboard. initial feedback, love it.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I've got it pulled up on my browser and we
just didn't get there to talk about it. Yeah, I don't want to
give it short shrift.
Adam Curry: No, no, no, no short shrift. We're not none of that.
All right, Dave Europe?
Dave Jones: No, he pitched him in one reading. Paper we got a
$15 from Sebastian PITINO Lang and no note. But thank you.
Thanks. And we also got right into the wire up Beats Music
podcast and it's $3.33 through PayPal and he says just to
Thanks for doing the boardroom with great conversations about
the 2.0 verse. Enjoy these cookbooks that you can turn back
into Bitcoin at your leisure go podcasting. Thank you
Adam Curry: very much. So crayon. Love it, brother. Yes.
Dave Jones: Let's see what we got. I guess it was a great
Adam Curry: name by the way. Salty crayons a great DJ name. I
love that. That is everybody's LT cray on here Friday
afternoon. My daddy wasn't Beatle is better
Dave Jones: than James Andrews. Born DJ. I'm
Adam Curry: gonna go look for some air checks of James
Andrews.
Dave Jones: Andrew grommet ducks 2222 from app. The app is
wherever Wherever I think this must be a test boost. I
Adam Curry: think you have to just say wherever. And I heard
Andrew is going to be on the pod news weekly review soon. So
that'd be great. I'm looking forward to hear and we should
have him on our show too. And
Dave Jones: Andrew says, Go podcasting.
Adam Curry: That's right brother go podcasting.
Dave Jones: Get gene been since the boost, he says, interesting
take on a classic song that's just for last week's song left
to know how they handled the rights side of things. That's
first and on the dock of the bay, I think.
Adam Curry: Yes. Well, I don't know long answer, but the answer
is, it's a borderline case. It only works if you believe that.
Now let's take the streaming out of it. If we're streaming, we're
technically broadcasting we're tech the game violation. If I
put a song into a podcast, I need to have permission from the
owner of the master. And that master owner needs to have paid
for a number of copies being made of that song. Which is
impossible to know impossible to know. And, and I've had many
conversations with people about this. It's a very gray area. And
honestly, I'm not going to do it again. I really no, no, it's too
It's too risky for me.
Dave Jones: Yeah, well, yeah. And I
Adam Curry: don't want a waiver they could get in trouble they
can get in trouble for allowing this anyway. But
Dave Jones: that's up to now. I will want to I do want to say a
waiver Lake is being good about they. There's people trying to
post stuff as usual, as you would imagine people are trying
to post copyrighted stuff to their to their site, and I see
them taking that stuff down. Oh, yeah. Good. So they are policing
their system. Good. Which is good to see. Jean been sent a
notice 1313 37 Cast Matic he says if Apple ignores a tag in
their namespace, and I don't think the podcast index should
honor it, either. That's blog referring to the blog. And
Adam Curry: when I've already done that, right, we're not
ignoring it.
Dave Jones: Oh, no, we're not ignoring it yet. I'm just trying
to I'm waiting. So James reached out to Apple to get a comment on
whether or not they what their official stances. So we've been
waiting to hear back on that good. Jean been another note
2223 casts medic, he says I don't think podcast apps need to
have activity pub instances. They can have users that have
users authenticate to external instances just like any Mastodon
client does. For users without an activity public count
already, the podcast app can guide users through creating one
I agree.
Adam Curry: I agree. That is absolutely the way to go. And
it's
Dave Jones: it's easier on the app because they don't have to
do the operations have to deal with it. Up in 1984 4000 SAS
through fountain he says if Apple is a monopoly with a 60%
market share, and we should be breaking up the two party
monopoly system with Democrats or Republicans. I'm a Linux and
Android user. I hate the entire apple ecosystem. And I side with
apple on this one. The government did not have a case
against Microsoft in that case still had more merit than this
apple case. Good point. Yep. Anonymous. Seto Richards. 1111.
Enjoy this episode, gentlemen. Well, thank you. Thank you. Ron.
It's bigger. Oh, we just talked about Ryan 85 SATs through. CT
cast. ematic. He says great recording. I guess
Adam Curry: that's Thank you. I hit record. It worked. Great
recording. Yep.
Dave Jones: Oh, Dave Jackson. pocket for Hall of Fame podcast.
2222. Your cast thematically says showing booster grants to
Tim. Tim Putra. At Podcast Movement. I loved your in James.
Presentation. Tell puto you're in James presentation. Okay. I
loved your video, I
Adam Curry: guess. How do you spell puto? PRT? UPUTTRETT? Are
a who is Tim? Pune?
Dave Jones: Pune? pooter.
Adam Curry: He is. He's a podcaster. Yes. Okay. That's
right.
Dave Jones: Well, thank you, Dave Jackson, appreciate your
brother. Come out. We're gonna make sure that we have I gotta
make sure I didn't. I don't have stragglers. I didn't have a
straggler. Okay. Morris podcast. 2100 says, Oops, I started a
post delimited trend. I repent. To quote Michael Jordan, stop
it. Get some help. Thanks. Thanks, Gary. Yeah, and get
calm. WooCommerce. So yeah, we got the delimiter where I lost
him. Oh, here's your blogger 20 1000s through fountain. Wow.
He says, howdy Christians, Dave and Adam. Although, although I'm
personally agnostic, I want to extend my best wishes to you for
a joyful Easter, a holiday commemorating the resurrection
of Jesus Christ. It's akin to how podcasting two point O has
rejuvenated the world of podcasting. Additionally, I
invite your listeners to explore my cartoons at WWW dot CSB dot
lol yo CSB.
Adam Curry: Thank you see you The yeah it's Jesus Super Bowl.
It's what it is
Dave Jones: Jesus Super Bowl. I like you know, Jesus, you know
kind of like podcasting to point out
Adam Curry: exactly the same thing. Yes, thank you.
Dave Jones: Oh wait, we got some some one please.
Adam Curry: What are you doing? You're walking away from the
line.
Dave Jones: I got the I got JD wadded up my monthly list before
I was where I was ready for even ready, monthlies. We got Jordan
Dunnville $10 Dred Scott to Bruce Wayne to podcasting. $15
Michael Kimber. $5.33 and Pedro gonna call this $5 Now I'm gonna
actually do it for real. All
Adam Curry: right, thank you all very much for supporting
podcasting 2.0 the podcast but of course, you really supporting
the entire project, which includes everything that's
running, everything is running and liquidity. I had some
problems opening up channels to a couple people I'm not quite
sure what happened but still here hit me up Adam at podcast
at Adam at podcast index dot social and I will open up a
channel to you. I think Chad F might still need one. So hit me
up again, brother and I'll open that for you. We use that all
for liquidity, everything that goes into the node and thank you
go to podcasts index.org at the bottom to read donate buttons,
one for your Fiat fund coupons through Pay Pal, the other one
for tally coin for your on chain? I don't know we should
probably remove that. And button is once again, no one has used
it. No one has used it. And we really appreciate you for
supporting podcasting. 2.0
Dave Jones: Did you see the hedgehog? protocol layer two
protocol? I heard
Adam Curry: about it. The first thing I thought was, oh, is that
something we could use?
Dave Jones: It it actually looks pretty rad. Because
Adam Curry: you can you can send a payment. And the other person
doesn't have to they accept it later. Is that what I
understood?
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's, it's you it's using layer, it's using
layer one. It's basically it's using a thing inside of normal
layer one bitcoin scripting, to do a sort of loose channel,
where you can send somebody where everything where you can,
you can basically just send a payment. So it's like lightning,
send a payment, but it's not broadcast until the channel
quote unquote, closes. But then there's this. But there's a an
in script function where you could revert back where you can
revert the payment with a time lock. If it's not accepted, if
it's not accepted. So you don't have to actually have an online
channel. So
Adam Curry: Oh, cool. So it's kind of is it invoice list? So
you don't have to have an invoice first?
Dave Jones: I believe so. I think you just need to name a
bitcoin address. Yeah. Pretty nice. And I love it. Me and
Alex. Yeah, when we announced we're talking about as I mean,
you could actually do this. It's it's protocol. It's sort of like
Wire Protocol Independent. So you don't have to actually, it
could go over any
Adam Curry: protocol don't even actually don't even need to be
connected,
Dave Jones: I guess. Yeah. You could do it over email. Or, or
like you could do it over you could have you could have you
could have like a lightning channel over XMPP Wow. Over
hive. Wow. No, no. Yes, yes.
Adam Curry: I'm gonna send you some stats through hive. There
you go.
Dave Jones: There's this there's this. There's like a supporting
wire protocol. That's called like what is it? I forgot the
name burrito. It's some other animal things like this. This is
anthropomorphic menagerie of terms within your language today
Adam Curry: your language today is off the chain man. I'm loving
all these I'm learning words.
Dave Jones: Words I guess it's too much I can't keep track of
all this. All these terminologies like they try to
get hedghog like whatever, man, but anyway, it's really cool. I
Adam Curry: would like to play with all right. All right, well,
man, I wish I could pull that I so yes, I know you'd like to
play with. Alright everybody. That's it for the board meeting
episode number 173. Brother Dave, thank you so much, man.
Dave Jones: Yeah, you too, man. I'm trying to mute button
myself. I'm coughing my head off. I
Adam Curry: hear you. I hear you will feel better. Have a great
weekend. And everybody out there in the boardroom. Thank you for
joining us once again. Thank you for participating we back next
Friday with another board meeting of podcasting 2.0.
Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast
index.org For more information Go podcast now