Adam Curry: On casting 2.0 For April 2024, episode 175
Everyone's an actor Hey, hello, everybody, welcome to
podcasting. 2.0 Before we get started That's right. Once again
for the official board meeting of podcasting and podcasting 2.0
We got it all happened here everything going on a podcast
index.org one is up with podcasting two.org podcast index
dot social. And of course we are the only boardroom that
encourages breaking your NDA. I'm Adam curry here in the heart
of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who reads
Chesterton's neritic so you don't have to say hello to my
friend on the other end. Dave Jones.
Dave Jones: Hang on one sec. I'm sending a boost.
Adam Curry: What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you
doing?
Dave Jones: I'm seeing the booster pod news weekly review.
Oh, rich guest or OKC rich guest or a pod casts network.
Adam Curry: I thought exactly the same thing. And I'm like,
okay, so rich guy starts a podcast network thinks he can
monetize the network hires five celebrities, one of which was
the host of Big Brother UK. And boy, it's gonna be different.
Dave Jones: This time, it's gonna rip this time.
Adam Curry: This time, it'll really work.
Dave Jones: For you all the times it didn't this. This one's
different.
Adam Curry: I mean, is this guy basically the British Mark Cuban
is that isn't he from Dragon's Den?
Dave Jones: That seems like exactly what this this is
fireside chat all over again. Or whatever that thing was. Well,
actually he'll get Okay. Okay. I know. We don't have a red book
for predictions. Yeah. I don't know what we have. But I want to
make a prediction. Right. Okay. April the 12th at 12:35pm.
Adam Curry: Here we go. All right.
Dave Jones: Steven Bart. Bartlett. Yes. Will will be the
keynote speaker at next at Podcast Movement. Next year.
Maybe this year. sometime within the next two years, he will be a
keynote speaker at Podcast Movement, aka you know, Allah,
Mark Cuban.
Adam Curry: The only thing that that I thought I might make this
a little bit different is it's not just flight studio, which is
their podcast, podcast network. But they have flight story.
Which is Oh, it's a it's a marketing communications
company. So so they'll be making branded podcasts pretty soon.
Hey, look at all these stars. Look at all the stars. We can
have host your content. Yeah. This
Dave Jones: is so the I
Adam Curry: mean, it's just so obvious that this has been done
over and over again and it just keeps failing. This
Dave Jones: is not a pod casts network. This is a let's be
honest, this is a YouTube Play is what this is. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Dave Jones: First excuse me video. Code for YouTube. Because
that's the only video that even matters at all in any anywhere
in the world. You got one video platform, YouTube. That's it.
Well,
Adam Curry: I will say I saw something today. I boosted it. I
boosted it on podcast index dot social distinct called own cast.
Own catheter. Cast yes own cast is a I guess to make it simple.
It's like Twitch for activity pub.
Dave Jones: I didn't see this poster of yours. Where's Adam
at? Private?
Adam Curry: That's right. I was boosting myself. Yeah, well, you
can go to own cast. Oh, Oscar whiskey November owned cast dot
online boon cast.on
Dave Jones: Oh TLD on cast dot online. friable Yeah, yeah, no,
this isn't this a fork of something.
Adam Curry: I don't know.
Unknown: Maybe I'm wrong. That
Adam Curry: could be your live stream can reach a wider
audience on the fediverse allowing people to follow and
share your stream on Mastodon and other fediverse services. So
I saw this and I thought, oh, that's me. I know they do HLS
video streams or whatever it is. It just made me excited again
about social interact and how powerful we will be when we
start to implement some of this. I'm just going to start talking
in the different holes now. We will we will have our yes
Because imagine a community of apps. Imagine that imagine where
your audience doesn't just live on one app, it can live across
apps, how we can connect, how we can actually measure success.
These aren't just connect communities interconnect between
shows, music networks, this is all stuff I wrote down this
morning.
Dave Jones: Grow your show.
Adam Curry: All right, you just blew everything grow your show.
Your show? Well, actually, yeah, you could grow your show. I
mean, it it's becoming, it's the point where like, I'm gonna have
to build an app, because I want other person
Dave Jones: to Adam, please build an app.
Adam Curry: And it'll be me and Sam Southie doing this.
Dave Jones: Please, please build it.
Adam Curry: I mean, I mean, I see so much possibility. Imagine
if I mean, all the all the cross pollenization where you can, you
can literally grow your show. I hate to say it. But in fact, we
just kind of hijack that grow. Your show was socially interact.
Of course, you can grow your show. Because then you can see
across apps as an app developers like, hey, I can I can surface
stuff that people are following or subscribe to on all apps, not
just mine, on all apps. Now I can see ratings. I think, I
think I'm just calling it social interact. Because somehow the
common thing is just freaking everybody. I don't care. I don't
even care if it's comments. I don't care. I just want the
connection between the apps.
Dave Jones: Actually best if it's not comments.
Adam Curry: I agree.
Dave Jones: I agree. I don't know what that means. But, but
Adam Curry: I like it. I like it felt like Yeah, it feels good.
If you say
Dave Jones: things that you feel, and you figure out what
they mean later,
Adam Curry: I mean, it's just just subscribe numbers. Just
subscribe, hey, I subscribe this stuff, interactions
Dave Jones: as well, you're talking to them like,
immediately, I started thinking about what airhead posted the
other day?
Adam Curry: What I usually read his stuff, what do you post? He,
Dave Jones: he was talking about audio books. And he was saying
that he was having a hard time finding any apps that supported
audio books in the way that you would expect them to be
supported. And sorry, I just why don't you just find this post
and
Adam Curry: what did you do? That
Dave Jones: just had an add moment? Comment from John
Spurlock testing
Adam Curry: audio book support are there and the apps I've
tested so far show the chapters in the order they show up in the
RSS feed ignoring both the episode numbers and the order
display director for Are there any afterwards? This works?
Okay. I understand. Okay.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Basically, there's there's there's
production of audio book taking place podcast. But there's no
apps that read those feeds as if they were what they're supposed
to be and audio. Yeah. So there's no, there's no audio
book app. There's what is when he writes, right, right. And
that's a problem that needs to be solved. It's too bad. And I'm
going to do it. I'm going to solve if nobody else has a
problem. I'm going to write an audio book.
Adam Curry: Why don't you and I just build an app, you
Dave Jones: build the app that you said you wanted to
Adam Curry: build? You build the app. Now. Let's build the app
together. So I'll be like, This is how we do it. David, you go.
Okay. And like we always do it.
Dave Jones: Hey, should do this. Okay.
Adam Curry: We did it for 12 years, by the way, we're on
episode 175. I think we are officially three and a half
years into this thing. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, three and a
half years, I think.
Dave Jones: Yeah. I didn't get you anything.
Adam Curry: Sorry. I sent you a very expensive gift as I always
do. You did? Not.
Dave Jones: Sir. Three weeks or three years, six month
anniversary, sweetheart. I'm not. I'm not actually joking
about that. I mentioned this to somebody probably a while back.
And I really do want to write an audio book app. Yeah. Yeah. I
want to just get a basic something out there. Because
nobody seems interested. And, and you know, we're not we're
not competing with apps here. That's anathema. But if it's,
what I'm talking about is something that does purely
audiobooks. And then it only shows audio book, excuse me.
Medium equals audio book. It feeds in then, as soon as
somebody else adds audiobook support to their app, or as soon
as somebody else writes an app that does audiobooks, I'll just
yank it.
Adam Curry: And in this audio book app, do you envision
chapters? Or is it episodes of an audio book and an audiobook
be something that is serialized so so so for instance, let's say
Adam liked that idea so much that he wanted to create his
audio book of his life, which is
Dave Jones: the subtitle will help you have a working subtitle
Yes, yes,
Adam Curry: yes. held hostage by my hair is the subtitle my life
my life in media held hostage by my hair. Yes, that is my title.
My
Dave Jones: Autobiography will be Dave Jones. Oh crap.
Adam Curry: So if you build the app, I'll record the book. Okay,
yeah, for sure. For sure it's
Dave Jones: a it's a deal handshake handshake
Adam Curry: it is right but But going back to social interact I
just don't know how to motivate people I think that I'm just I'm
just flapping in the wind like curry doesn't know what he's
talking about. He's got no ideas yet these ideas are never any
good.
Dave Jones: That's why the audio book thing piqued my he like
popped up into my head is because when you when you sit
it's like, there can be discussions about audiobooks
There you go audiobooks. Comments are clearly but then
there's also going to be like, I can see like recommendation
activity public recommendation engines and stuff like that that
could come out of it. You know,
Adam Curry: I hate to say this, but I'm gonna say thank you.
Thank you for the boost interruption pew pew. What's
been on my mind a lot lately and and please take this with, with
the love that I'm saying this. Advertising has been on my mind
a lot. And I wouldn't say advertising is the right word.
But underwriting underwriting corporate sponsorship
advertising, call it whatever you want. Because while we all
see that the advertising model for podcast is severely broken,
it just doesn't work. I mean, it's not it's not a it's not
trustworthy. How about that, then it's not trustworthy,
because it's not it's like Nielsen's aren't trustworthy,
either. But everybody trust them, you know, the IAB thing is
just not panning out. And, and I still think that it would be to
everybody's benefit if we could figure some of that out. And
this also works with social interact. Because there are many
things that we can ask listeners to that podcasters can ask
listeners to do like, turn on the listen button to support
support me while I tell you about this great product. And if
we all did that we could be the platform recognizable by the new
podcasting to logo. Yeah, yes. That would actually have some
accurate listen numbers at you know, and I wouldn't use it
because I'm just not into, into messing up my con. It's just not
how I live I live value for value. But we'd be foolish,
foolish if we didn't capture this obvious opportunity. It's
an obvious opportunity. Because when when the money comes to
the, to the places where the apps are, the audience comes the
users come. I was just something to think about.
Dave Jones: Yeah, so the the ad so are you talking about are you
talking about advertising as far as in listens and stuff like
that? You don't the accuracy of all that kind of thing? Yeah.
Based on like, well, there's,
Adam Curry: there's a couple of things. But first of all, I love
the DI direct inquiry. I love it when someone I mean, we know
agenda as an example. So we have Linda Lou Potkin who donates
$200 Every show she'd be doing it for over two years now, I
think. And all she says is you know what, I think she has a
resume she does executive resumes. And she doesn't she
doesn't, you know, I don't even remember what the what the
domain name is. But she doesn't even mention that just look for
me, Linda patcon and we got some other guy who donates $200
Almost every every show, which is by the way I gigawatt Coffee
Roasters use code ITM 20. Now, is that advertising? I don't
have to read it. I don't mind reading it. It's probably a
great CPM. If I thought about it, I don't know it doesn't
matter. Button in that that type of stuff. I always like you
know, obviously something's working for them, otherwise they
wouldn't be donating that Yeah, and it's you know, it for me
it's value. There's always a note about the show. It's not
just about, but I'm not gonna read ad copy, we just don't do
that. But we have a boost button, why not have a click
through button? This whole bunch of things that we just because
we are value for value, I think we're selling ourselves short of
a great opportunity. That's all I'm saying.
Dave Jones: But I don't know what you mean. Like,
Adam Curry: what I mean, or what I mean, is that the advertising
is not working on podcasting, because there's no way to
measure success. Right, by implementing things that allow
the users to feed back, like I listened to this, or, Hey, we
could do right now in a Chapter, you know, look at your phone
right now. Click on the link in the chapters.
Dave Jones: I think as a way, let me see. Let me see if I
understand what you're saying. Because there's lots of barf
going on in the chat room. Yeah. Because,
Adam Curry: yeah, I understand that. But you know, you're
idiots. Go ahead and circle around like a bunch of turns
into pisspot. The opportunity is huge right now. I'm not going to
do I'm not going to do advertising. But there's
millions of people who want this. And they're going to
YouTube. Great. Meanwhile, Mitch, Mitch is struggling.
Everybody's struggling, because there's no money coming in.
Dave Jones: I think I understand what you're saying, though. But
I think what you're, if I understand it, you're saying
that the the way advertising is, is has been done is
traditionally always been done within podcasting. That method
clearly does not work Correct. For night, let's just say for
99% of podcasters. That does not work. And that is an end. So
we've, we've lumped when we talk about advertising, we talk about
it in those terms. But there is another way. The in the other
way is value for value. But advertising, our advertisers are
welcome at the
Adam Curry: table. Why not? Yeah.
Dave Jones: Because like, it's like somebody? Well, I mean,
think about it. That's what isn't.
Adam Curry: Do you hate your Do you hate your television?
Because you can also watch a channel with ads? No, you just
don't watch the channel with ads.
Dave Jones: Okay, well, maybe I'm still Mr. Just because
because what I'm thinking is like, I mean, people, pot page,
by page sins, 25 bucks to US a month to help us out. Because
they because Brendon over there appreciates what we were doing
here. But also it helps. It's an advertisement for him. Like I
mean, he gets we say that we say that we say pod page, every
shirt shirt is so like, it's not I think I think I understand. I
think I'm understanding that you're saying value for value is
not advertiser. advertiser exclusion, exclusionary?
Adam Curry: I think you're correct. Okay, sir. Cal from
lavender, Lavender blossoms.org. I mean, we haven't lost people,
because these people come in and donate. We haven't lost that
boat. I have no way to help them. measure the success of
what they're doing.
Dave Jones: Do but Right. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. And also how
to write but they evidently can, because they keep doing it.
Well, they are they have a feel for
Adam Curry: an ROI. They have an ROI that obviously is working
somehow. But beyond that, but beyond that. Podcast stats,
they're useless. They really are. They're useless. If I ask
people, Hey, I'd like to know who's listening. Could you could
you could you toggle that button in your app, people will do it.
But I'm not asking you to send me your your life. I'm just
saying, Hey, I just want to know if you listen to something how
far you listen to something. Now, we kind of have that with
streaming sets, which is where this comes from, because I love
those statistics. I'd love that. I'm just saying that. As
podcast. Infrastructure developers forget the content
for a second because there's nothing that I hate more than
pre rolls mid rolls. I hate that. I hate dynamically
inserted ads. I hate ads on the radio. I hate ads on television.
I hate it all I hate. It's offensive. I don't like it. But
even pivot which is a show I hate which I which I forced
myself to listen to. I'll listen to their ads that they are
reading because they read them. And they're actually interesting
ads because they're products that you don't typically hear
about. So, value value for value. Just put that over here
for a second as a as a complete platform. Just think about how
powerful it would be. If this group of apps over here had ways
for you as a marketer, I'm not saying an advertiser a marketer
to measure success, whatever that means to you, because we
have connected these apps into something much bigger. It may
be, maybe it's just to see the rating of your ratings, real
ratings are bullcrap. It's just it's just to get higher on the
on the on the iTunes chart. But to have real subscriber numbers
that are across this, you know, 20 apps. We're not doing that is
we're just missing out. We're missing out on a huge
opportunity. We're the only group that can do it, and we
would kill everybody.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I think I think I understand what you're
saying. It's a way you can say, well, it's this, this goes back
to that way of thinking where you say, like the Apple,
Microsoft thing we, we don't have to, they don't have to lose
for us to win.
Adam Curry: Yeah, you can say that. You can say that.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Because you say, Well, I'm not gonna, I'm
not going to change or my content or censor my content or
anything like that. I'm still in control of my content. And if
you want to participate in value for value as an advertiser,
you're free to you're welcome to do so. You're more than you're
more than Yes. Yes. We're glad for you to participate. But
you're not. But we're not going to do. But we're not going to be
quote, ad supported. No, not. Oh,
Adam Curry: yeah. Again, again, television cable. So it's all
great platforms. Right? It's great platforms. I don't hate it
because there are channels on that platform that shabads I
don't hate my television. I just don't watch that. But I am using
a television, I'm using that device, abusing that app, to
give give give, give the money, people some reason to come and
use stuff, and maybe change what advertising means in the
meantime, you know, because for sure, what's hurting us right
now is pre rolls, I would say 60 to 70% of people, when they get
a pre roll think the app is doing it? Yeah. It's
unbelievable. I pay premium for pod verse, how come I'm getting
ads. It's, It's sickening. We need we need to get rid of that.
Well,
Dave Jones: in you know, and we're kind of just speaking for
us on this, you know, show in the podcast index, we were kind
of already doing that. Because if, like, I mean, that might
we're doing that mindset, because people ask us from time
to time, like, you know, hey, can we use the index? Or can we
do this kind of thing, and they want to have some sort of
financial arrangement? And we always, our standard response is
always just No, I mean, if you know, you use it, and if you
like it, donate and we'll read your yes, we'll read your
donation on, you know, on the show, and you'll get, you'll get
the publicity that way. But you're just gonna line up and
donate like everybody else, you know, this special platform
privileges, yes. And if you know, and you don't have to, if
you don't want to, but beyond
Adam Curry: that, Dave, just as a platform was just think out of
the box for a second. And for me, there's, you've got an RSS
feed with enclosures, whether that's music, whether that's an
audio book, whether it's whether it's a long form podcast,
whether it's a Bible sermon, whether it's you just doing
Gregorian chants, that's a podcast, I don't care. I don't
care if there's no difference to me. But if we really want to
lift up what we're doing here, we would be in and we are being
very jihadist about the advertising part, the market
when we could just call it marketing and not advertising
then as better. And if we can connect all of our apps. So that
podcasters This is the number one I think podcasters can grow
their show, because there's interaction between apps. So
it's not just one app, it's 10 or 15, or 20 apps, that all have
some kind of interaction, but I like my app for you know, for
the stuff it does for me. Now, some people like the processing
of the sound, the skipping the speed button, the way it
portrays art, um, there's all different reasons. It's a very
personal thing. But the but that we can have we really feel like
we need to connect into some form of platform because then
we'll be will be, we will accelerate past What the so
called Big boys can do?
Dave Jones: Did you know I mean, I get where you're coming from
on the technology side of that with activity pub. And the way
that that could could enable something like that as the
attribution and stuff. I just, it's like, but once you go down
that road, then you're, then that's where the that's where
the scam start. And that's where the fraudulent what scam? What
Adam Curry: were you talking about?
Dave Jones: Are you talking? You're talking about enabling
some sort of attribution over activitypub? No, no, I'm
Adam Curry: talking about attribution. No, no, no. Like a
social interact. Yeah, social interest. So yeah, so but that's
not that's not to attribution. I have no interest in attribution.
I'm talking about social interact. Yes, I like this. Yes.
I've subscribed to this. Yes. So follow this. Here's what I have
to say about this. Yes, I listened to this. All these
things are social interactions that benefit the show, benefit
the community around each show benefit cross community, because
the eye can see an app, then saying, Wow, here's a
recommendation. And you could eat them in technically, you
could recommend a show that's doing well over on your app to
someone who's listening on another app. I mean, you
understand what I'm saying? Like activity throb enables, it's a
whole new world of things that we can enable. And yes,
marketers can benefit from that as well. in new ways, not with
dynamic ad insertion in new ways.
Dave Jones: You're just saying you're saying that those new
ways are interacting with the show through activity pub
channels.
Adam Curry: Well, whatever. I don't know if you call it
channels or whatever, whatever. Yeah, I mean, it just seems to
me the word is the whole world is connecting to activity, pub.
And all and I mean, why can't we, when I see that, what is it
called? own caste? I'm like, huh, there's something there.
But shouldn't an own cast and all that if it's a twitch like
experience, should that flow into my podcast app? Or do I
know have to go to an own cast webpage?
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, peer to peer tube is fully identity
pub enabled ensures that. Sure.
Adam Curry: And, and all this stuff works on my app I've been
I hate to think, oh, there's video. Okay, that works fine.
But I can't do like the own cast live chat. No.
Dave Jones: Well, okay, well, let's, let's let's twist here
into that, because awesome. Oskar, ping me on email and said
that his noster fountain live chat relay thing is, is open,
and he's got some instructions on how that's how that works. So
I will be starting to bridge that as soon as possible, so
that we can get the get live chat.
Adam Curry: In I wish I wish we had I wish we had the same
energy that that 10s of developers are putting into
noster as we in activity pub.
Dave Jones: I really do. We do know, there's the Oh, I think I
think I think you're mistaken on that. I mean, the energy, the
energy of activity Pub is 1000 to one versus noster and because
it's just distributed
Adam Curry: no one you but no one's putting that into our
apps. Instead
Dave Jones: of having a 15 developers working on stuff and
nostre you have you know, 1500 developers working on stuff and
activity pub, except for our developers. Right? Oh, yes. Yes.
Okay. I misunderstood your point. Yeah. Are the the 2.0
people seem well, I mean, the ones that are the ones that are
super active right now into being nostril related but Oh,
Adam Curry: yes. I mean we have we have true fans and this is
what I like about Sam Sam is implementing a lot of stuff but
there's no one else is doing it. So he just kind of out there in
the whim flapping away. Well,
Dave Jones: that's what I'm trying to bring. That's what I'm
trying to bring the nostril fountain stuff over to activity
pub, that's what I'm trying to bridge everything over is
because that you know, there there's one I want to take that
energy you know, and instead of it just like evaporating into
the void, redirect it back redirect that nostril
development energy back into activity pub ecosystem, I gotcha
so that we can get the benefit of and it doesn't just like I
Adam Curry: got you. But that's that's basically just Colorado
Dave Jones: forgot about Cassiopeia. Yeah,
Adam Curry: I mean, yeah, what is in Castle is? What is
Dave Jones: fully activitypub enabled from the ground up to
everything,
Adam Curry: as opposed to Yes. As a hosting site. Yes,
absolutely. Absolutely. So you know, it's there. But we I don't
I just don't understand why we haven't connected at all because
it to me, it's like I just see this super, super opportunity
for the for app developers.
Dave Jones: What do you think about it, though? I kind of it
kind of makes sense of what, of where we are as far as what, you
know, we're. I see. I see. I see. Everything isn't it isn't a
very strange place. Because I failed. Dave, understatement of
the universe. The universe. Yeah, the you have this. Say, Go
ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, you had Twitter, and Twitter.
The Twitter's sort of implosion was rapid. It was in and then
you had before you had Mastodon that was that was sort of the
flagship of activity, pub, applications and use cases.
Activity Pub is sort of like the trajectory of it is very similar
to the trajectory of nostre. As far as agree that ever the
phases that it went through, agreed in Macedon started a long
time ago, as this as the flag bearer for activity pub, as the
alternative to Twitter, when Twitter was still strong. So you
had this so what what Mastodon when it was Mastodon wanted to
be was an alternative to Twitter. And it was going to use
activity pub to make that happen. So it got a share a
share of usage, based on that mental model. This is an alt,
Twitter. And so then Twitter imploded and Mastodon went, it
just went through the roof. And so activity pub, therefore went
through the roof. And these other sort of more under the
radar, activity, pub app, projects, like pixel fed and
these kinds of things came, came onto the CN, N, peer tube and
the N caster pod and these other applications, they were trying
to do something with something deeper than just be a clone of a
social network. And they just, they are just now beginning to
emerge. Because the social network aspect of activity, pub
became the dominant narrative. And that same thing happened on
noster. It you know, Nasir became the alt Twitter for
Bitcoin bros. And then it has, it cannot seem to break out of
that idea. And so it's take it takes a long time for people to
get past the notion of the thing that the thing that was the
dominant use case of a thing is really all you do is all you can
do.
Adam Curry: Okay, I completely agree. And so but here's the
exception that that gets me all excited when I go to podcast
index.org and I go to this show, or any of my shows, really, and
I click on comments, it doesn't look like a social network. It
doesn't feel like Mastodon or Twitter or threads. It looks
like oh, there's some cool comments that that's the
difference right there. But I believe that people between apps
should be able to collaborate on creating my chapters I mean,
Daniel J Lewis his life would be changed if we had ratings or
stars or whatever it is that goes between apps not because I
think you're right because of the social network aspect
everybody shy I am I really don't want to part of it. And
Mastodon you know that I mean, honestly, podcast index dot
social to me. I love podcasts index dot social. That's the
first thing I go to everyday it's the last thing I look at at
night, my own psyops shop which is by the way I've blocked no
authority dot social from podcasts index dot social
because I hate that stuff coming into that our little club our
little area, I despise I despise my own my own master Master, my
own Mastodon instance, because there's nothing but negativity
that flows through from Jack offs. It's like it. And I, I'm
not quite sure what to do with it don't want to curate it. I
don't know. But I go there last. But podcast index dot social is
exciting. You know, there's not a lot not too many people you
know, it's like a small community, which is what to me a
podcast community is and I'd love to just have, you know, for
me the root posts of any social interact tag that I fill out on
my podcast, that's the community there are people who listen to
that episode. And, and I just want to see that which is not
available anywhere else into the scale, we could implement it
with all these extras. I want to see I want to I want to Oh,
there's Dave Jones. I want to see what other podcasts he's
listening to. Even though I'm on podcast guru, and you're on
Casta Matic This is discovery. This is growing your show this
is growing your penis, I mean, all this stuff.
Unknown: What did I say this the ad pours?
Adam Curry: Well, I'm throwing the ads part in because the the
marketing part. Because there's, that's where you can reignite
something and reignited around our apps and take it away from
the other so called I mean, it's bull crap, it's all bull crap.
But if if we start to build value amongst each other, and
amongst our apps will become valuable.
Dave Jones: This is a thing that's hard for us, I think that
we're running up against the limits of language here. But I
think that I fully follow what you're saying. And I think I
think I'm saying it that way, because it's always difficult to
tell because you have to, you have to take a set of thoughts
that are in your own mind and distill them into language, and
then community and then Trent, you know, give them to me and I
have to, you know, and distill them yes, and try to mate and
try to see if they make any sense. In the some meaning is
lost along every, every every stop on that path. So think
that, but I think that I follow you. And I think the issue here
is, is one of at some point, in order to get past the idea that
activity Pub is just an alternative way to do a social
network, then there has to be this sort of, you can't just be
you, it has to have that thought almost has to be completely
gone. You have to you have to just there has to be this like
complete Abnegation of the entire, like, notion that
activity Pub is a social network at all. Correct? You know,
because the like I hate you know? So podcasting index does
social. I'm glad you pressed on this because this is this is
actually bringing up some stuff in my mind and helping me to
understand some things. Podcasts and digital social is an
important thing. It's where the community mostly lives in 2.0
Things get hashed out and now and all that we all know that
but there's a sense in which I'm happy there but sometimes
happiness is your gateway to annoy and happiness
Adam Curry: is a warm gun. Dave Jones.
Dave Jones: Wow. Wow. Wow.
Adam Curry: Sorry little John Lennon reference. I'm
Dave Jones: sorry. Okay. Okay. I didn't get the reference. So the
Yes, yeah. So that can Yeah, you know, you happiness sometimes is
your sort of gateway to being annoyed. And the the, the
annoying part is the commit is this sort of endless
communication that happens back and forth. And I don't like the
social aspect of it, if it feels artificial. It feels like an
obligation sometimes. And all of those things and it's not
anything unique to podcast index dot social is probably better
than any other community I've ever been involved in on that
aspect of things. But there is an there is a certain level of
that the students inherent with social networking. And when you
think about like, once you break out of that thinking and say,
okay, activity pub isn't about social networking. It's about
connect Acting sort of events. It's an it's sort of an event
connector, yes. Then you, then you can start to move beyond the
social network parts and the annoyances that that brings, and
get to something that's truly new. And I feel like one of the
like, as soon as one of these truly new things occurs, as soon
as something happens on activity pub that is truly new. And I
mean in relation to podcasting, and is not just a comment
engine, then it opens, it's going to be like an eye opener,
and it opens the doors. And then there's going to be a flood of
new of new activity that happens, where people say, oh,
oh, this is what you can do. You could do things like x. And then
you can, all of a sudden, there'll be this like burst of
activity that happens along down that going down that road. Well,
there's already
Adam Curry: versions of this. Fountain has their version of
that, but they're completely closed. You die can see what so
and so boosted, I can see what so that I can follow someone
follow those profiles. It's the number one app out of usage, I
think for sure. To
Dave Jones: see that still, that's still a version of chat,
that's still a version of just commenting
Adam Curry: I don't know. But that's not what I'm interested
in. What I'm interested in is following a person for what
they're listening to. That's the thing that is if I could say one
thing that we could do with activity pub, it would be that
you can, as a user, you can say, Okay, here's, here's the, here's
the podcast I'm subscribed to, and anybody can follow me. It'd
be something that I could publish, you know, we've all had
these, um, you know, automatic posts, I'm listening to so and
so. But I would like to follow you to see, not only would I
love it personally, to see what podcasts you're following, or
which ones you care to share with me which you're following,
because I believe that's important that you know that
some things you may not want me to know. But even maybe I'd like
to know when you're listening to something. These are social
things that have been proven time and time to work very
successfully. So if we take the whole comment thing out, I don't
care, I really don't care about comments. I care about
connecting our apps, because I see, okay, this feels to me like
2000 in 2000, I got on an airplane, I flew to New York,
and we went to Dave Weiner's hotel room. And by stood there
and I said, we need to have some kind of attachment to a post on
the RSS feed. And he thought it was just an assholes Hollywood
guy coming in to tell him what to do. And then he basically
threw me out. And I went back the next day, and I went back a
third time. But I try and I tried to show him in his own
software, what I was talking about. And then it finally hit
him. And that was the actual birth of podcasting in 2000. And
I feel the same way. I feel just as strongly that this and
believe me, the fact that I'm getting this from Sam Sethi is
blowing my mind. Because I was I was like nah, Sam, I don't know
what you're doing over there. It's confusing. I don't get it.
But then once he interviewed that guy, I forget his name,
who's the co author of the book that's coming out. I was like,
Okay, I get it. The everything. I believe everything's going to
be connected to activity pub one way or the other. It's really an
inter app sharing protocol.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. And this is, in this is, that's really
what where the strength is. And it's just been I was looking
through this big list of activity pub projects here in
this link, and there's like 9% of them are just Mastodon clones
Adam Curry: at just as an example. When so I have boosted
Graham ball. I mean, man, there's gotta be a way to have
activity published activity pub, published about first of all the
songs that I'm playing. They should be able to tie in easily
to wherever that song lives easily to that artists profile
easily to where that artist likes to meet their fans. So if
artists wants to have that all flow through to a chat or is
this just called a chat, whatever meeting place, close
forum, I don't care what you call it. All of that can be done
seamlessly. Hey, you want to know more about ain't Costello
just tap on the on the art.
Dave Jones: You're shuttled off with Betsy. here's and here's
what that looks like, though, is because you could this is where
I think this is important. Rather than just post a note, so
activity pub theory, your
Adam Curry: show beer.
Dave Jones: Right activity pubs notes, are what get posted on.
Like, when the act when the podcast index AP bridge posts a
new episode, you're getting a you're creating a note is what
the object is called. And you rather than here's the critical
part, I think is rather than just posting a note that says
This song was just played on this grand ball, that is
possible, but you also posed a customer, it's a new type of
object, you create a new type of object. With that's more that's
not just a text representation of the thing. It's its own
custom object here is a here is a podcast episode four here is a
remote item. These were bring these these concepts of 2.0 into
the activity pub world as native objects. Yes. Yes. And then the
other people are receiving them, the other platforms are received
them in their native format. And then can choose to do lots of
different things with them, pass them on to an to a front end in
a way that is like, Okay, so for instance, pod, let's just let's
just use pod versus example. Pod verse, is, gets a gets a more in
a more compliant with activity pub on the backside. And it sees
it's sees events happening, it's getting events posted to it.
From the booster, ground ball. Activity pub, that, you know,
spewer whatever that whatever the word is the term Yes. Pure.
Yes, this viewer. And then it's, it's it's seeing these things
come in, as events in in a sort of native object format. And now
it doesn't have to have this live stream switcher. WebSocket.
Yeah,
Adam Curry: there's a perfect example. Perfect example. Yes.
Dave Jones: Which has been problematic, it's hard. It's a
hard. This is not that people have struggled with with
connecting to this web to the live web socket to see the split
kit changes. So a split kid is outputting activity pub. And
then the split kit actor, for booster grand ball can just be
subscribed to or followed, excuse me. And then those those
split kid events can be multiplexed in a way that they
can't easily in a or at all in a in a single WebSocket
connection.
Adam Curry: And think of all the richness of the data. Pod roles.
I mean, all of this can, you can just traverse the tree,
basically, whatever that event is, whatever that podcast event
is into activity, pub. There's all kinds of stuff that can be
done with that by other apps. And you can you can, you know,
to me just as a non app developer, it's like, oh, look
at all this data that I can use, I can surface somewhere instead
of kind of the things that we've had for the past 20 years with
the exception of the new tags we have, which is great. And people
love new tags that put new stuff in. But now I want to be able to
populate other things. And this is where we're, we can bring in
the user, the listener, the audience, community, things that
they're doing that they want to share as a part of it back to
the back to the podcast back to that community. But also,
everything's a Venn diagram. I know sound like Kamla Harris,
but everything is event Venn diagram between podcasts shows,
things overlap, people overlap, you can do, I think amazing
things through this app interconnector. And yeah, I
totally think it should be its own type of spewer element,
whatever it is something that maybe it's even unique to, that
we put into activity pub, like, Oh, this is, this is what you
can access from a podcast app. This is the kind of stuff that
can broadcast into or activity pub to be picked up by whatever
Dave Jones: it sort of but this is a good follow up to our, to
the insanity, which was last week's boardroom?
Adam Curry: Well, yes, perfect example. Yes.
Dave Jones: Because what what Bouverie does on a consistent
basis is similar to that, that old thing that we saw where you
would go to a website and had a live like webcam video of some
goats? Yes, you could be Yeah, he could send some and send some
bitcoin to a specific address and it would shoot some goat
food out of the out of the nozzle and the goats run over
there and grab some food that which was endlessly
entertaining, and, and sort of like blew blew your mind on this
level of like, I can't believe this is real, like I'm sending
Bitcoin to this address. And then goats are running around
eating because of it. It's like so weird. Yeah. And so once you
and that's the blueberry does that stuff all the time with
these weird little projects that he cooks up? I think this helps
stretch you out of this helps you stress you out of this
mindset. That the thing that you're dealing with the protocol
you're dealing with is only for this one thing. Yes.
Adam Curry: That's the vision that is exactly the vision
antenna
Dave Jones: pod, which is a great FOSS application, podcast
app that we don't talk enough about antenna pod had a call for
contributors this week for 2.0 features like cross app comments
and stuff like that they want people open source developers to
help contribute 2.0 features to antenna BOD and this is this is
a perfect opportunity for for them to add some are for for
contributors to add stuff like that in
Adam Curry: yeah and I would just say social interact that I
think cross app comments is death. The name is Death is just
down
Dave Jones: the years death is death. That's a good point.
Social
Adam Curry: interact. That's the name of the tag is called Social
interact.
Dave Jones: Thank God we didn't call it comment. Ah, worst word
Adam Curry: that would have been the worst. Yes. So that's my
pitch it just seems that this is we have a band and orchestra of
very interesting people you know, people bring all their own
instruments we've got a guy with a washboard someone's playing
spoons, we got a banjo we got five and drove on the Joe I've
drummers jug. Exactly. And I'd love to make the music all play
together. Because we're via we're now into Phase seven,
we're doing tags. And you know, a lot of them are not
implemented or kind of implemented. Creating some form
of, of architecture around the social interact tag, which is
nothing more than just here's here's a root level item that,
that a podcast app through its users can start adding stuff to
that can be shared out to the world, whether that's another
app, whether it's to you know, it can be a completely it can be
completely it could be a Microsoft Word for all I care.
It can be anything that's the beauty of it. You know, to like
blueberries, I mean, we have all these cool things like you know,
the the the IRC bot that fires off that no one else knows how
to use you know that only works in one in one particular way you
know, he's got him basically what you said he's got stuff
light lights going on. I mean, maybe I want to like to go on
when my favorite podcast to post something or whatever in my own
house. I
Dave Jones: mean, it goes live Yeah,
Adam Curry: I mean, start my vacuum cleaner. I don't know. I
mean, it can can be anything I'm just saying that I see I'm from
the future. I see social interact in activity pub as
something huge. Really, really big. This something I believe
even Marco could get in on
Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah, there already do. We need to Enough
talk to Alex about bridging pod ping over to activity pub before
too and that that seems like an important thing to me. I don't
know if you
Adam Curry: don't we basically have that already. We have we
have the live The Live account that just pops up, he's talking
about something else. I'm just
Dave Jones: talking about in general. So they put things. So
the pod pings sort of cross pollinate over to activity posts
so that you can follow. I mean, I'm just an act, you know,
Adam Curry: I'm still looking for me as an app user, I want to
do something on this app that publishes some events somewhere.
That's what I want. It doesn't have to be a comment. That's,
that's the lowest level shittiest fruit tastes bad is
usually bad as whatever. That's the lowest. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I think that's probably what's also kept people
as they can people. I mean, developers think that's probably
what's also kept 2.0 developers from doing more with the social
interact tag is because it's like, comments. That's kind of
boring.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Or, or a pain in the butt.
Dave Jones: But like, it's, it's just not. It's just, I think
everybody's, there's a general Oh, people are just over it. So
with social media, sure,
Adam Curry: sure. I'm completely understand. I just, I don't see
20 apps, I see an entire connected infrastructure, that
can be something much bigger. By communicating inter app. The
simplest things, follow the subscribe, rate, even those who
just start with those two, just those
Dave Jones: gentlemen about what Amanda pod pings being bridged
is that if you had pod pings coming through as Nick, coming
through his native activity pub objects, then you could just say
like, you could subscribe, or excuse me, Fox, keep saying the
word subscribe. I mean, follow. You could follow a podcast
actor. And then just, excuse me, you could follow you could
follow some sort of actor that represents your podcast
playlist. And then then you can just follow that like, Okay,
think Okay, think about this hypothetical app. Now let's use
intent upon Okay, antenna antenna pod, at some future date
understands, in this hypothetical world understands
activity pub on the back end. So then you have a or on the low
level you, you fire up antenna pod and you follow your playlist
as an actor, then, this playlist actor also knows. So this
playlist actor is is a representation of all of the
podcasts you follow. And then as these pod pings come in, the
playlist actor their sort of activity stream is showing these
events, these pod pings coming in as activity pub objects. And
your and your app, just gets them and knows where new
episodes are. So your app and gets episodes within within 60
seconds. Just by virtue of you being Have you following the
playlist actor? Okay,
Adam Curry: so what you're Oh, interesting. So what if I'm
following you what you're saying is this could be a great benefit
to developers, because now you have a different alert mechanism
that is probably more responsive, more robust than
almost anything else that polling. Right.
Dave Jones: So what happened? Yes. So what happens now is So
what happens now is things you think about so cast ematic is
good example. I think I think cast Matic I think antenna
podcast thematic are similar in that they do not have back end
infrastructure. I think they are standalone apps. Everything
happens on device on one device, right? So imagine that so the
way it works now, let me back up the way it works. Now is that
something like hasta Matic you have a list of feeds and cast
ematic poles those feeds periodically to find out is
there's new episodes Yes. In this playlist actor scenario,
you have a an activity pub actor, and that could be your
normal activity pub account.
Adam Curry: Yes,
Dave Jones: that's true. That could just Dave at podcasts and
desktop social. And this this account also follows all these
podcasts. But instead of coming through as text items as notes,
they also come through as something like a pod ping
object. So that when, when cast ematic is canoe is, is following
your account, they get these pod pings, do they see the poppings
Ping objects as they come in in the timeline. And it's just
receiving these notifications, essentially, that there's a new
episode available. This
Adam Curry: is what I like about this conversation, because this
is how this is the creativity of developers. That you will come
up view and others will come up with ideas that will not be
baked up by me. You know, there will be new ideas that pop out
of this once once we make those connections. And again, so
that's still not really interacting between communities,
but it's a start, there will be a start to get to get activity
pub connected to the apps. But I'm still much more interested
in what can I do just by simply using my app that helps me share
with the community of people who are listening to that podcast,
or a community of people that happened to listen to the same
podcasts. And that doesn't mean comments. Just show me you know,
sir. Oh, you know, five of the people in, in in this community
of this podcast also listened to Dundar dot c now you're helping
Discovery now you're helping grow your show. But you're also
giving me some benefit. Oh, that's interesting. Now can I
can I ping that person? And can I see what when I say Ping i Can
I take a look at what what their subs? This is like Napster.
Napster was the same thing you looked for. He looked for a
song. Oh, I found this woman will reroute around this guy's
drive. What else is he got there?
Dave Jones: Remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the best
part. And
Adam Curry: that wasn't a publisher. That was just some
rando dude who had Napster running? That was so cool. Yeah.
Then you'd actually you'd work with people and we connect. Hey,
man, I'm downloading now. Can you hold off for a second so I
can get my songs faster? I mean, it was it was it was a real
community based thing. You really was. Without that?
Dave Jones: Without Yeah, yeah. And that Napster would have. If
it had had chat, it would have
Adam Curry: it would have killed it probably had destroyed it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Jones: That's, that's the Yeah, the non textual non chat
aspect of activity. Pub is what we need to leverage in 2.0. And
make, yeah, make us make a first class citizen of
Adam Curry: Yes. And make the user make the user be the
communicator and the receiver, not just the podcast publisher.
Yeah, give that user something to do. Give that user something
to discover. I mean, that pod ping is pod. Pod roll is kind of
the beginning of that, but it's still coming from. Okay. You
like this? This show? Here's what here's what else we
recommend. Button. I'm telling the most exciting thing is when
I get it like you post I mean, okay, bad example may be but you
post something from Chesterton on the social which is you know,
just because you posted it doesn't mean that I couldn't be
following you for your your audio book feed like, Oh, he's
he's listening to an audio book of Chesterton. I want to listen
to that too. Now. Yeah, that's how it works. Working out in pod
verse you made a clip you know, can people follow my clips?
Dave Jones: Yeah, a clip should be an actor. Yes. Yes.
Adam Curry: And follow up follow the clips I made that what who
else listen to this clip. Where did it go? That
Dave Jones: that's probably the best sort of inroad into this in
as far as mental framework goes is what what thing is what would
happen if everything consider what the world would look like?
If the thing you're talking about was itself an actor? What
if the episode was an actor would if the US listener was an
actor with a podcaster? Everything's the world is the
clip the transcript Yeah,
Adam Curry: transcript and great idea could be an actor totally.
Dave Jones: The world the world's an instance and we're
merely actors, you know, that that's if everything it just
think of the weirdest thing about the, the smallest like
node in your in your, in your idea in which what if that was
the actor That's where things get kind of weird and beautiful.
that's out there. This I think is cool, man.
Adam Curry: I think it's great. I mean, should can't even be if
you think about it. I can't even each chapter be an actor.
Potentially. Yeah, that's what you can interact with this with
the chapter by itself.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's got chapter art. So there's
your avatar. Yeah, it's good. It's
Adam Curry: alive. Yes.
Dave Jones: Like there's he could do. That's where things
get interesting is when you start to think about non humans
as actors.
Adam Curry: So we just decide we banned comments for now.
Dave Jones: Yeah, comments off the table. Comments are banned.
Adam Curry: Good. I like it. I'm excited now officially,
officially, no comments.
Dave Jones: No comment.
Adam Curry: And you know, I'm feeling people like Andrew
grommet. You know, these are people are going to start
messing around with this. Because they're, they're curious
and creative.
Dave Jones: We need we need to do some namespace talk. Well,
Adam Curry: just so happens, I have. Where's my, oh, here we
go. And now it's time for some hot namespace talk. Jennifer had
some kind of meltdown. So she wasn't able to get our new
jingles. But actually, yes, she posted some picture and I was
like, what is that? That doesn't look good. I was like, Are you
being electrocuted right now? Um, I guess she has some kind of
hum in the machine. So if you need help, damn, Jennifer, let
us know. I'll jump in.
Dave Jones: So the publisher feeds is we have we have two as
a reminder, as a reminder, phase seven ends on is closes on June
the first so we're, we're getting there. You know, we got
about a month and a half to go before we're going to shut down
phase seven and start digging through the digging through the
flotsam and figuring out what goes and you know what, in what
stays pumped. So there's two clear things that people need in
as comm that is part that is bubbled up very quickly. The
publisher feeds, and some sort of category tagging a genre,
tags genre category, call it what you will. And as a
publisher feeds. Or a probably it was probably we probably need
to talk about tagging con category genre next week.
Because Sam, Seth is going to be on the show we're going to do is
we'll be diving into some of the stuff but publisher feeds.
There's one real I think we got it pretty much baked, except
that there's kind of one thing that is a decision we have to
make. And that's whether or not we wrap the remote item in a
publisher parent tag. Do you if am I am I free to dive into
this? Or do you need a primer on where exactly we're at with this
stuff?
Adam Curry: If if you think I need one then we probably all
need one.
Dave Jones: I don't know. You may be you may be fully uh, you
may be fully engaged and up to date on this. I don't know. But
if so that the idea just run it's worth running up. Yeah, I
think so. Yeah. Okay. So the idea here is that you have you
want to have this idea of a publisher where don't get too
hung up on the name publisher is just an it's just a name names
are not that big of a deal. So publisher fee I'm sorry, Daniel.
Publisher feeds are this concept of having the the entity that
creates a feed or a set of feeds has their own feed. So let's
just use you we have Adam curry as the publisher and Adam curry
publishes quote unquote for feeds no agenda, podcasts into
boy no. Korean the keeper. Mo facts five feeds Yeah, boost
scramble. Yep.
Adam Curry: I've all the crap I need to do more podcasts. You
Dave Jones: need more pa you don't have so you have you
publish five you Adam curry as the publisher published five
podcast feeds. You need your own feed. That read For instance,
those five feeds. And that's in that feed that feed that
references, all your feeds is going to be called the publisher
feed. And that is a way that people can subscribe or follow
or somehow connect with all of your feeds in a centralized
fashion, so that they know canonically that these are all
the things that you published, because you're the one saying
that that's true. If I know that you're this is very similar to
what we used to have with a freedom controller with s OPML.
Yeah,
Adam Curry: I was just gonna say sounds OPML ish. Yeah, so in
Dave Jones: the freedom patrol, we had an OPML in our XML
namespace for the OPML. document. And we had this idea
of a disposition attribute. So on each outline node, in the
XML, there was a thing called disposition equals. And the two
possible values were pub or sub, right. And so if I have a single
OPML document that represents me, this is Dave's OPML. Dog,
and we call it your OPML. social graph. Then, you could look at
that OPML document and say, okay, everything with
disposition Pub is a feed that I publish, everything with a
disposition sub is a feed that I subscribe to,
Adam Curry: right, I think we call it S OPML. Yeah, social
OPML.
Dave Jones: Right. So that was the SOP ml namespace, this is
very similar. So you would have, except you're leaving out the
sub part, you're just saying, Okay, I have a RSS feed. And in
that feed, I'm going to list all of the RSS feeds that I publish.
And so then in the to, to sort of complete the loop there. On
those feeds that are being referenced to those five Adam
curry feeds. You also put in a link back to the publisher feed.
That way, if I'm subscribed to Yeah, yeah, if I'm subscribed to
curry in the keeper, then my app could also suggest if in a
special section or some handling in the UI, could also say, Hey,
here's the other podcasts that this publisher also creates in
Boca and it would know that because they could see the
reference to the publisher feed, walk back up the chain, to the
publisher feed, get those other feeds and go parse them and
display them to the listener. And so that's that's the idea.
You have this sort of two way verification that happens. And
we've all this is all this is, is pretty much fleshed out the
publisher feed. Just has remote item links, linking to the
different feeds that the publisher publishes. Yes, and
thank you who is the most read? So let's the most relevant
aspect here is at the moment is for music. So Ainsley Costello
has a publisher feed that has all of her feeds that she
publishes, whether they're singles or albums or whatever.
Those are all referenced within that publisher feeds so you can
follow Ainsley. Or you can. You can either follow the publisher
feed to see all her stuff, or you can follow one of her
albums, and then also see all of the other stuff that she
publishes to have the opposite opportunity to follow those. Can
Adam Curry: I interject an ad? Yes. RSS blue.com/music. There's
now a new path, whether you're doing a show or an artist or
whatever you want with music, RSS blue.com/music.
Dave Jones: That was a freebie. That's right. So that's the way
that that's the way that it currently. The idea is, so then
the issue here is on the feed side itself, not the publisher
feed but on the on the podcast feed, right, because we need
that reference back. You need the reference back in the way we
had, where we had originally, we bounced round a couple of
things. And where I had landed was I initially was like, I
don't think we need to have a publisher tag, we can just have
a remote item with a medium equals publisher. And then that
if that's found in the channel, then that's your reference. And
I still think that's okay. That's an that's an OK way to do
it. But I've got a couple of I've started to change my tune a
little bit. On this, and I'm now thinking that that remote item,
Thomas Rin, popped into GitHub and the podcast index dot social
and said that he really thinks that that remote item
referencing the publisher feed should be wrapped in a publisher
tag, something like podcast, podcast colon publisher. And
originally, I was like, yeah.
Adam Curry: I've heard that noise before, it's usually not a
good sign.
Dave Jones: And so but then I started thinking about it more
than like, you know, I think he, I think he might be, right. This
is not really a right or wrong issue. This, I just, I just
think I like the way that that feels better. And here's the
reasons. I don't like the way atom at O M, Atom feeds. I don't
like I've never liked the way that they use link tags. So Atom
feeds have a bunch of link tags with different rel equals into
two different differentiate what their, what their
Adam Curry: meanings are. That's where rel equals mi comes from.
Dave Jones: Well, no, that's different. That's, that's a link
mess of metadata ahead. Yeah. Disregard, disregarded. So I
don't like the way that that is because what it makes you have
to do is iterate the whole link list. In this is, this is at a
code level now that I'm talking about, when you when you parse
an Atom feed, you have one or two, you have two choices, you
can either parse the entire link list, each time you're looking
for a specific type type of link, let's say you're looking
for web sub links, you're gonna have to run the entire link list
and find that specific rel equal link that you're looking for.
Otherwise, you end up or you end up with a loop in your code with
a dependent sort of dependent parsing functions coming out of
that code, which has sort of a lot of fingers. It just doesn't
fit in either one of them, when you just have a list like that.
I don't know, it just doesn't feel good to me. Because here's
the issues because RSS doesn't have a notion of a head and a
body section, like HTML does. So in in HTML, if you want to put
some sort of metadata in there, you can just stick it in the
head. In in, then you have a body for the content. If RSS had
the notion of a head and a body where the head held a bunch of
content, a sort of this type of thing, and then the body had all
the items or the episodes, there would be a little bit more
logical separation between these things. But there's, we don't
have that everything's just in a flat list called the channel. So
it says everything's in the channel, wrapping things in a
sort of a parent tag. It really helps with the parsing of it. It
gives a little a little bit more logical, like structure to the
to the data. So um, and we kind of do that already.
Adam Curry: Can I Can I ask a crazy question?
Dave Jones: The crazier the better?
Adam Curry: Why aren't we just using OPML for this?
Dave Jones: Yeah, that that came up, except that OPML everything
in podcasting is geared towards RSS. On the subscription front.
And it's just, it would be such it would be a big it'd be a
heavy lift to make people parse OPML. Okay, because let's be
honest, oh, P mails a weird based.
Adam Curry: I always loved it.
Dave Jones: Now, I love it, too, but it's a weird one. I mean,
it's a weird, dude. Well,
Adam Curry: for sure people don't know the true power of it.
They only no list of RSS feeds.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Like, everything's an outline tag.
Yeah, that's that. I think it just blows people's minds. Okay,
so all right, but yeah, so it's a way that I think that we kind
of already do this with with media. See, like, value
recipient? Yeah, that can have a remote item in it. You know, in
a value time split and these kinds of these. It's rare that
the remote item lives on its own unless it's in a playlist
medium. And so I think I think it makes sense. If I think
either will be clearer, I think either way will work. But I
kinda like the wrapping and apparent publisher tag better.
So I think I think we kind of need to figure that part out
real quick. And then we can pull the trigger on on getting this
thing formalized. Okay. finalized Excuse me. So I'm
gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna push that agenda. He's got on his
podcast and
Adam Curry: agenda. He's got an agenda.
Dave Jones: I got an agenda. It's in, it's in, it's got to do
with publishers. And we're going to end I'm going to push that on
podcast, index dot social and GitHub, and hopefully we can get
that one over the finish line.
Adam Curry: So just while we're on this briefly, where do we fit
in the concept of tags for music? Because I promised that
bring this up.
Dave Jones: Yes, I've got that on my notes as well. I'll house
hoping to talk about that next week with Sam. Ah, yes, thanks.
He's
Adam Curry: got a lot to say about that weird idea.
Dave Jones: I don't think we're far away from this. I don't
think that there's much that we have to do, because we've
already hashed out so much of it in the past. But I think it'd be
good to have a verbal conversation about it with him
next week. And I think, here's, I think we can get all of this
done by June 1.
Adam Curry: Okay,
Dave Jones: so another month and I think we're, I think we're
because people are already building it. Wave lakes already
putting they're building both of these, they're gonna have these
things. shippable this month? Clean this is this is happening.
Publisher
Adam Curry: publisher feeds?
Dave Jones: Yeah. And categories,
Adam Curry: or tags are excellent. Excellent. I gotta
tell you, I was listening to phantom power music. Our I think
it is there's like a million phantom power podcast, and named
for a podcast and he had on. I think the guys from the trusted,
which are a bunch of British guys didn't even realize that.
And the you just listening to them? Used to them? They're
like, Oh, yeah, this Nasr thing, they don't even know what
they're talking about. But then, but then they Yeah, you know,
people are sharing on the podcast, and I can, can feel the
artists are starting to catch on the end. And when artists catch
on to something, and they get 100,000 SATs, you know, they're
like, Ah, how do we get involved? And they, please,
yeah, but it's not just the money. It's like, we can't
believe someone's doing something. It's like someone's
doing something. The song Yeah, someone's playing our song over
here. And we're finding out about it over there. And
there's, there's value and it's a lot more value than they get
them they get nothing zero value of any platform, because they
never hit the $50 threshold or whatever. And it's exciting. I
mean, I always have to remind myself these things, these
things take time. takes time. Yeah, it really does. But it's
happening. It really is. And you can see more and more just the
features in the apps, the way they're being displayed. The
things that people are coming up with, I mean, it's rolling, it's
rolling, and it's small, but it's it's going to it's just
going through RSS is and the apps they're going to be the
distribution mechanism in for the foreseeable future it really
are freely really are is everyone's starting to see it
say well how can get on all these platforms be ignored
they're talking about but I get all these platforms just by
uploading it this way. You know
Dave Jones: are you gonna play a song today?
Adam Curry: I have a song if you if you want to you want you want
to hear song? Yeah. Is it the trusted No, it's not the trust
but you might want to hold on to your to your britches for this
one right I picked this one just for you Dave. It says the retro
grade as heard on booster Grand Ball in many other places it's I
need a little
Unknown: again
CZ Houston
is over
guys
Dave Jones: Are you
Unknown: busy used to?
Adam Curry: cruising around Hello girls I got my stereo
crank just for you the retrograde I need a little Yeah,
it's good, isn't it?
Dave Jones: Yeah, I like that. That prompted you for the music
because I was had to pee right.
Adam Curry: That's what we do in radio.
Dave Jones: I'm a real radio guy, shall we?
Adam Curry: Thanks some people here Dave Jones. We should think
Dave Jones: some people in and out Oberto in the in the boys
and girls calm Oh $1,000
Unknown: stock Carla 20 is blades on him.
Adam Curry: Advertising can beat that.
Dave Jones: Adam and Dave, here's some value back at you
and the podcast in Tupelo, all stars. Thank you everyone for
your time of talent. Treasure. It's very time talent treasure.
Let's get together in Fredericksburg. One of these
days smoked beef shake. Oh,
Adam Curry: I get it. I like that idea. Yeah. We need a
friend meet up for sure. For sure. Thank you. Thank you guys.
Thank you. The hosters are always the big supporters. Let
me go through a couple of the the boosts booster grams that
came in during the show. I heard a lot of pews. 7777 little
striper boost from circus media boost on episode 175 Go music
podcasting. And there's big 10,000 SATs from music mama. She
says we can feel it. That's Ames this mom. We can feel it. I can
feel Sam Sethi 10,000 sets. We have publisher feeds and artists
fees. You can follow a publisher feed if they add a new track or
a new podcast or their slate we'll send you a notification.
So I'm talking 2222 from blueberry Dave, you're saying
one could make a post and activity pub and tase our GIMP
on the podcast? Saying yes, I'm liking it
Dave Jones: early. That's what I meant subconsciously.
Adam Curry: Another 10k from Sam Sethi from true fans. I'm
working hard to link activity stream to activity pub. You and
Dave have invented the new ad model but just don't know it
yet. VTS SATs and remote item we will have activity stream to
activity pub working to demo next week. Good because I don't
understand anything that we just said. Fun. I'm excited I I'm
excited. Hey Dave, whatever it is we invented it just so you
know we did we invent it before you know what the wiki pedia
will say we were promoters of it. Yep. Stakeholders. If you
look at the Wikipedia, Adam Curry was a podcast enthusiast.
Dave Jones: An enthusiast. Yeah, just my favorite. My favorite
tweet ever from you. It hands it hands down is Spotify. Put out a
tweet that said Tell us about your RSS. Tell us about No. Tell
us about your podcasting, relationship, your relationship
to podcasting. It was just one of those engagement getters.
Tell us about your relationship to podcasting and you replied
and said invented it.
Adam Curry: Oh, there you go. Not Not according to the
Wikipedia though. Bro. Ducks from Dave Jackson coming in from
Casta Matic gonna try this again from Castle Matic speaking of
marketing, advertising and coffee. I still say censeo after
I burp. Thanks, Adam. How do I get deeper? How do I get the pro
deprogrammed? You can't that's going on on 18 years that people
that was that was my advertising test and it still works never
got paid. 2220 from Dave Jackson again speaking of coffee
advertising and branding every time he did it twice so it came
through on true fans as well. Three times true twice from true
fans there you go. Once on Sunday, yes right Jean ever 3333
Live boosts from Highway 684 in New York. That's right. Wave to
Armonk on your way past. Dave Jackson did it again with true
fans is true fans is great for our wallet. Whatever true fans
is doing more of it. We invented it 7777 Again from circus media
more options more choices, more freedom go podcasting. The tone
record catching the live feed today always refreshing with a
row of ducks Guy Martin 7777 boosting and from true fans.
Yes, please. I'd love to be in the dev alpha and beta of an
audio book app. There you go.
Dave Jones: And you don't have to make it now.
Adam Curry: Sam Ceci with 1000 SATs cough we support medium
equal Audrey audio books will work with her head to understand
the problem the issue was finding feeds Okay, that should
be that should be solvable. Yep. Eric pp roadex went to 22 he was
interesting he boosted it boost wow that's weird. He boosted a
song. I don't know how that even worked. I don't know what do you
what add something showed up from curio Cassatt? I'm not sure
what's going on. Eric PP and other 3333 We've got a hit the
delimiter. So over to you Bob.
Dave Jones: Pod verse, Mitch and Kreon over in collibra pod verse
$50. Whoa,
Adam Curry: thank you very much.
Unknown: For that shots call off 20 blades on am Paula thank
Adam Curry: you much.
Dave Jones: Eric. BP says he doesn't know what he did either.
Beats Music podcasts and $33.33 three Thank you. says how the
boardroom boardroom Dave, it's that time of the year for
tornado chasing yes it is. It absolutely is gracious. Here's a
little donation to help top off your climate change and help
keep the lights on go podcast go
Adam Curry: podcasting as you
Dave Jones: see we have Jesse Anderson $33 No note thank you
Jessie. Alright, and that's our paper towels. We got some boosts
Adam Curry: boost boost. Boost boost boost boost boost motion
here we go. By the way I just say I'm loving it Barry who's
doing the all about podcasting podcast.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Adam Curry: He's cool podcast.
Dave Jones: He is alive. Live Event guy. Yeah. He loves doing
those things.
Adam Curry: Yeah, he's got. He's interviewing everybody. It's
great. I love that. Love that what you're doing
Dave Jones: 6969 from Pei citizen, through pod verse. He
says pugnacious boost that's when blueberry takes 10%
Adam Curry: Yeah, blueberry in the split for today. So enjoy
blueberry. Okay,
Dave Jones: yeah, you could double up there you go. See we
got Alan C Paul. Da boost this is great interview with
blueberry and the song sold me on checking out the concert God
Adam Curry: There you go. 12 rods it was a big success.
Dave Jones: Advertising through V for V. Loc we got rusty
Calavera posting the see through cast ematic he says Midwest is
best.
Adam Curry: True I can True that.
Dave Jones: Say we get another one of those and oh god the
delimiter comic strip blogger 22,000 SATs fan Anthony says,
howdy fellow simulation dwellers, Adam and Dave, as an
agnostic, I think that the likelihood of us living in a
simulation is greater than the truthfulness of the religious
beliefs centered around Jesus. However, if you hold the belief
that Christ is king, then I encourage you to subscribe to
Adam and Tina Curry's podcast, where they talk about Jesus
Bigley. You can you can find it at www dot Currey and the
keeper.com they accept a boost for grants from podcasting 2.0
apps, which Adam reads on the show. Yo cssb
Adam Curry: Thank you so much CSP he I love it. It's the only
person I know who boosts and of course it's advertising just
just just pointing it out. advertising
Dave Jones: for others he's never selfish. He
Adam Curry: never never never asked for himself once in a
while. It's CSB dot lol but then that's true and far between
Thank you very much comics for Blogger. You got any monthlies
Dave?
Dave Jones: Yeah got some monthlies. Basil Philip $25
Thank you basil got Lauren ball $24.20 Mitch Downey $10 Thank
you Mitch. Christopher horrible Eric $10 Terry killer $5 and
Chris Cowan $5
Adam Curry: Well, thank you all so much for your contributions
to podcasting. 2.0 it keeps everything running all the
servers all the polars all the machines the social we don't
that thing is that thing is chugging along sometimes.
Dave Jones: How expensive is it now?
Adam Curry: I think we're up to 9085 or 90 bucks a month
Dave Jones: ish
Adam Curry: yeah but it's really data I mean it's storage it's we
had to build the database it's I love maths though dot host
things a great outfit. I've purchased many Mastodon services
from Mastodon hosts it works very well but I've never seen
downtime. Never
Dave Jones: one one other thing as far as the arsa.com donation
reminded me that we are working behind the scenes with your arm
where I'm having talks periodically with Roberto from
our sister calm and Tom over Buzzsprout in which trying to
kind of come up with a with an idea for how to fight the spam
feeds.
Adam Curry: Yes, yes. Good idea. Very good. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Everybody's got good ideas. So I think we're gonna
think we're gonna have a repost soon where we can post some reg
x's for blogging and cool things. So
Adam Curry: go to the podcast index.org down at the bottom.
You got to read donate buttons, one for your on chain Bitcoin.
Okay. And the other for your Fiat Fiat fun coupons through
PayPal, we always appreciate that. And of course, the way to
really do it is getting modern podcast app modern podcast
apps.com To find out more about podcasting, two dot o podcasting
two.org. And the value for value which is a it's a content
format. It's a model. It's a lifestyle. Value number four
value dot info. And one last board matter. Since we have been
asked which I I'm flattered. I'm flattered that we were asked the
podcasting 2.0 logo. All in favor say aye. Aye. Okay. And
that concludes all of the business for the boardroom.
Anything else from your side?
Dave Jones: No. Okay.
Adam Curry: Good. You're gonna you're going back to work
because you're very close to the deadline. Here are a couple more
days and tomorrow is tax day for me tomorrow. I'm doing all the
taxes.
Dave Jones: Oh, you late, you late filer. Oh,
Adam Curry: but but I have it all set up. I just have to, you
know, I'm just waiting for the button. Yeah, just I just I
wanted to delay the pain until the very, very last minute for
Dave Jones: your your skirt and your skirt of the limit. The
Monday deadline day is great. Because everybody like you can
just like oh, I'll just do it Monday. No,
Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, I'm doing it Saturday. I'm doing
this. I'm doing that. Thank you very much boardroom thanks,
everybody for showing up. Really appreciate your booths.
Appreciate your support and your feedback. A lot was discussed
today. Have yourselves a great weekend. Dave. Brother, I love
you. I'll see you what we'll be talking and we'll talk again on
the next board meeting.
Dave Jones: Alright man see you bro.
Adam Curry: Join us here next Friday for another board meeting
the official one of podcasting 2.0 We'll see you then. Bye bye
Unknown: did you do you hope you have been listening to
podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast and Doug Ford for more information
go podcast
Adam Curry: Thomas are banned