Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting two point over April 26 2024 Episode
177 Can GPT Friday again hello everybody how you doing? Welcome
to podcasting. 2.0 This is where we discuss everything that's
really happening under the hood in podcasting, podcasting. 2.0
everything that we got going on a podcast index.org podcast
index dot social, Learn more at podcasting to.org We are the
only boardroom that has bleachers and beanbags. I'm Adam
curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in
Alabama, the man who can move tags from items to channels and
back again, say hello to my friend on the other end one only
Mr. De Jones.
Dave Jones: Did you send in our payment? Our payment? Yeah, for
the A for IAB membership.
Adam Curry: We're compliant, bro. What do you mean? I don't I
don't. We don't have to actually do that. We just say we're
compliant. Isn't that not what I learned?
Dave Jones: I would prefer if I had to choose a tag the badge to
put on the site I would prefer when they said I be non
compliant.
Adam Curry: That's now now now now now. Now. Now. Is that thing
falling apart? I mean, it megaphone is not a part of it.
Isn't that doesn't that kind of isn't that 30% of all of all
podcasts? Listening apps? Again, I don't I don't know. But no,
that was that doesn't make any difference. It's about the the
log for the megaphone but they got it. They got a lot of
business, don't they? megaphone, they got Romania. Oh yeah. They
got Rogan.
Dave Jones: A lot of business, so maybe No, no, no. Do
Adam Curry: they have that? Yeah, I thought they had Rogan.
megaphone feeds for rods, right. Yeah, that's right. But maybe
they maybe that's Grogan? Yeah, they got they got Rogan feeds
now, we got to make sure these numbers live up to expectations.
Dave Jones: Which requires not having the IB
Unknown: probably correct. Yeah. That's
Dave Jones: double checking this because I think initially Rogan
was not on megaphone and everybody was like What?
Unknown: No, I
Adam Curry: think he changed overnight. I think I remember an
article or something that he that he turned over. I think
your went to. And Todd over there blueberry selling host
read ads. Now. That's nice. I can't wait. I can't wait for us
to do so.
Unknown: Are we going to do host rails? No, of course. Yeah. Why
not? Host
Dave Jones: or your download? Or your or your download numbers.
Too low? Yeah, join the IB. We can jack them up by 10%.
Adam Curry: So I was looking at speaking of Spotify, I'm looking
at it all kind of clicked. You know, Spotify reported a net
profit. But was it net cash or some? It's some some scammy
words. But what they did is they bundled by from what I
understand when they added audiobooks. And now it makes a
lot of sense. If you add audio books to your app, then all of a
sudden you're a bundle app and you're not just a music app. And
therefore you can pay 25% Less royalties to artists.
Dave Jones: Whoa, wait what yeah, this is I looked into the
Spotify stuff that I this is all new to me to explain this to me.
Adam Curry: Okay, let me see if I can find it. Yeah, so the way
the rules work because audiobooks also have a they also
have royalties and stuff, I guess. Let me see where was
where was that he should there was a lot here here we go. from
finance, finance, US Finance as Yahoo Finance us.
Unknown: That's cool. Spanish, Spanish Yahoo. Yes. Spotify
Adam Curry: is music. Audio Book bundle means a lower royalty
rate for us songwriters, but company promises record payouts
Okay, that's always
Dave Jones: sure. We don't have to but we're going to because we
love you.
Adam Curry: Spotify is premium plans combining music and
audiobooks will mean a lower mechanical royalty rate for
songwriters on those plans the company has confirmed that's
interesting
Dave Jones: what Where's this coming from? Like what what
legal legality is this related to
Adam Curry: mechanical rights?
Dave Jones: So in every country or just the US are lazy,
Adam Curry: all mechanical rights are a worldwide thing. I
mean, this is this is okay. This is a publishing this. Let me
see. Let me see if I can find any official continue Orlando la
historia. Okay. So click here to read the rest of the story.
Okay, with the introduction of standalone audiobooks,
offerings, Spotify is now able to pay lower music licensing
rates for the music and An audio book bundle introduced in the US
in November 2023. The 2022 settlement agreement between the
national music Publishers Association and streaming
services included a carve out for bundles such as Amazon Prime
Apple Music plus Apple news, which the new audiobook offering
falls under such lower such plans lower the mechanical
licensing rates, the company pays in the US. Spotify is lower
royalty rates are retroactive, retroactive to march 1 2024.
Whoa, so, you know, that's a big deal. When you do like you're
you're not reporting profit, but net cash or something like that.
You can also be projecting into the future. So there's certain
expenses that you don't have to mention. It's kind of like the
inflation rate Core inflation, which doesn't include food,
housing and gas.
Unknown: What about Super core? Super
Adam Curry: core takes out I mean, living you don't live is
just some stuff. Amazon deliveries
Dave Jones: is another bit Amazon deliveries and DoorDash.
Yeah, so
Adam Curry: so that means that you know, they probably and also
with an increase in subscription price, that's probably how
they're, you know, how they jacked up those numbers. It's
great. I mean, it's a public company, I know how this works
is creative accounting. You know how this works. Who am I? Who am
I tell him who am I talking to? You
Dave Jones: know, I mean, this. This is a great, this is a great
move, by the way, because if everybody else is doing it, this
test so that means that they they added audio books, not
because they give a crap about audio books. That's what they
don't tell a single audio book. Now.
Adam Curry: nmpa president CEO David Israelite had strong words
for the moon. When contacted for comment by variety to appear.
Spotify has returned to it, attacking the very current the
very songwriters who make its business possible. Spotify is
attempt to radically reduce songwriting payments by
classifying their music service as an audiobook boom bundle is a
cynical and potentially unlawful move. That ends our period of
relative peace. We're on. We're on the warpath. You want to
stand for their perversion?
Dave Jones: Rocket noises or something? They're going to go?
Adam Curry: Well, if you want that, oh, yeah, it
Dave Jones: was this piece will not stand is invalid piece is
what it is.
Adam Curry: We need to have. We need where's my rocket ships? I
got rocket sock homes. Oh, here we go. We need cruise missile.
Net pops, you need more than that. Yes, somebody like this.
We will not stand for this Spotify, we will get you we'll
see real quick attack. Snap props. Yeah, it's
Dave Jones: much more interesting with that.
Otherwise, it's kind of boring.
Adam Curry: But that that totally made sense to me.
Totally makes sense at all. And all the oil people love our
audio books, you really don't know if that's true. Well,
Dave Jones: this book, their audio book, this makes so much
more sense because their audio book deal is awful. Like you get
you're not even in the same league with like Audible, like
as far as like cost goes is not even close. So it doesn't that
they don't care if they sell a single audio book. This is all
about getting this is similar to their previous thing where they
had where they, they clearly were using the increase in
monthly active users from anchor to get their MA You rate up on a
month over month basis. So they can retain their their lower
royalty deal to the music companies. And this is going to
happen this is going to they've they've coiled they've like
coiled the spring now. So that it's it's ready because now what
they're going to do is I don't know if you saw the little bit
of news where they said they're going to start basically joining
Spotify for podcaster. accounts to
Adam Curry: I didn't Yeah, I saw but I didn't really focus on it.
What does that mean? Yeah,
Dave Jones: so right now they're two separate accounts you see
you have what you have is a historic anchor account. So when
you sign up for Spotify for podcasters, you're signing up,
it's different than your Spotify account, okay? What they're
gonna do is they're gonna migrate these users over to
using a Spotify account. So now when you sign up for Spotify for
podcasters you're going to be using you have to use a Spotify
account so that immediately they have like six roughly million
podcast on Spotify for podcasters. So as they migrate
these user accounts over to be Spotify accounts. They're gonna
get they're gonna I mean these this is going to make that NAU
number go up a whole lot. Going forward, if you want to have as
an essentially what is an anchor account, you got to sign up for
Spotify. So it's like a win win, you know, to keep that ma you
truck rolling.
Adam Curry: I'm glad I don't run a public company anymore. It's
so painful.
Dave Jones: It's paying the other. The other thing I took
out of the Spotify earnings, though, was that when they break
it out in the premium users, meaning the people that pay for
the service monthly, their share of revenue was $3.2 billion for
the quarter ad supported, basically the free users. The ad
income from those their share of revenue was 389 million. That's
more than 10x Less Wow, revenue from ads. That's that's just
pointing
Adam Curry: numbers. Yeah, that's low.
Dave Jones: It's, it tells me like when you give somebody a
chance to just flat out pay for something they do it just make
you make more money. Yeah. The ad and the ad route is just
selling yourself short. Well, not.
Adam Curry: Not in all cases, not in all cases. New York Times
had a a big expose a on NPR brought clips. Oh, you did? Oh,
let me read the the what caught my eye. The title of the piece
is inside the crisis at NPR, the crisis. And speaking of bundles,
adoption of NPR is podcast subscription bundle. NPR plus,
has also lagged behind competitors subscription
businesses, according to internal documents obtained by
the New York Times, those crafty Times reporters. About 51,000
people subscribe to NPR plus as of early March, and the product
has generated $1.7 million in revenue since it was introduced
November 22. Yikes, that's that's unexpectedly low. In late
2022, NPR began selling fewer sponsorships part of an overall
downturn in the ad market, which I mean is that not Can we can we
confirm this now anyone actually copped to it? But so for the
first time since the COVID 19 pandemic, that Mr. Lansing then
the CEO and his team plan for NPRs revenue to remain flat in
2023. He wasn't prepared for what happened next. When January
arrived, the bottom the bottom the bottom, the bottom fell out
of the digital ad market. It did he said in an interview
sponsorships fell $34 million compared with the previous year.
And yet somehow the overall podcast advertising market is
now 18 billion. It's amazing. It's doing great. I know that
people are like screw these guys. You guys hate advertising.
You know? That's not true. We just shot in Froyo
Dave Jones: is enjoyable then.
Adam Curry: And then it goes on to love people. No, of course,
that's 10% of our revenue and you can't go back and get it
it's like an airplane that takes off with half the seats sold.
Once it's gone it's gone. That's an odd comment.
Dave Jones: That's a weird metaphor. What
Adam Curry: does that even mean? Well, if it's a Boeing you know
Unknown: just wait for the door to pop then more people will
jump in. And it's coming back to the ground just wait on it but
pardon but part of what really
Adam Curry: got me is was just showed me how tone deaf these
people are. Because you know, they there was a lot of dei
involved in, in in changing around stuff. And all we really
have to, we really have to diversify our content. Right. So
it came as a disappointment to some people on MPRs board last
fall when they were presented with new internal data, showing
their efforts had not moved the needle much with the black and
Hispanic podcast listeners, black listeners and wait until
you hear what they did. Black listeners made up roughly 11% of
an accolade on say African Americans so incorrect. Black
listeners made up roughly 11% of MPRs audience in the second
quarter of 2023, unchanged from the same period in 2020. So
three years no change. According to the data. According to the
data. The data further showed that the share of Hispanic
listeners went up only two percentage points in 2020 to
account for 16% of the total audience. 120 20 survey from Pew
Research found that of the people who named NPR as their
main source for political and election news 75% were white
more than any other outlet except Fox News, Fox News.
You're number two on the on the white supremacist list. Yes, but
then But then here's what they did. And this is what's just
insulting. I mean, these people I think are actually racist.
They don't even know it and NPR is efforts to diversify itself
and its audience didn't always live up to the expectations of
the people who work there. During a round of layoffs last
year, NPR cut louder than a riot, a hip hop podcast that
examines black and queer issues. So here's the meeting Dave. With
a bunch of white dudes sitting around we need to up our black
listenership. Yeah, let's do some Hip Hop throwing some
queers. It'll work. No problem. Yeah, the black Americans don't
even want to be seen as black Americans. They just Americans.
They want news like everybody else. But no, you're gonna
pander with a hip hop podcast. It's sad. It's really sad.
Dave Jones: That the agree with John Spurlock the comments on
that article were
Unknown: what was I haven't actually looked at the comments
I had. I'm
Dave Jones: like him. I never read comments on anything. But
but the comments on that article were very good. And they like to
just read through the, the, the, the leadership of NPR should
read those comments because their people are telling them
exactly what's up. I mean,
Adam Curry: okay, what do you know? What do you remember any
of the comments? I can't actually see it because it's
paywall now suddenly, for me,
Dave Jones: somebody called it a grievance based network. Wow.
And I think that's really what if that's probably the best
summation of the comments was that they people just don't like
listening to the to a grievance based network. Everything is
just negative, and victimization and grievance based. Yeah. And
it's just, it just got he just got tired of it. People got just
get tired of that thing. You
Adam Curry: know, where are you going seeing with with no agenda
that we're backing off a little bit on the amount of mainstream
media clips we play? Because it's exactly that, and people
get to hurt. But I don't want to hear you guys. Tell me what's
going on. I don't want to hear the clips this time makes me
tired.
Dave Jones: I get it digging. Yes, fatiguing that. I didn't
realize, but just a side comment. I didn't realize that
NPR staff was sag AFTRA. Oh, that have to be? Yeah, I didn't
realize that, that the actors? Well,
Adam Curry: well, you know, it was after and sagen after merge.
So they were, I've been, I've always been after, and I've
always been sad or sag eligible, because we're actually both
eligible because they're gonna pay dues anymore because I
didn't have any union gigs. But then they emerged and so
technically would just be one payment.
Dave Jones: After after, it was the sort of media side of the
Adam Curry: American Federation of Television and Radio Artists.
Okay.
Dave Jones: Okay. All right.
Adam Curry: That was broadcast broadcast, basically.
Dave Jones: Okay, that, that, I guess, you know, my thing is,
Catherine Maher got a bunch of Ms. She's taking the heat.
Adam Curry: Yeah, this is the new, the new CEO of NPR, who? I
mean, we've looked at her from an intelligence angle. She has
quite an interesting background. Sure, but and you know, and
certainly she came from signal the signal foundation before
that Wikimedia, which I think everyone knows is is, you know,
very managed, very managed, then not by people
Dave Jones: at the International Monetary Fund.
Adam Curry: Every word Yeah. World Economic Forum. And
that's, yeah, that's just a drinking club. But still, you
know, she's clearly a globalist. But then a lot of these tweets
of hers resurface. And it seems like it's just more of the
grievance stuff that the listeners, or at least the
readers of The New York Times don't want to hear on their NPR
stations.
Dave Jones: What I know people are no people like this, like
Adam Curry: Katherine or commenters know,
Dave Jones: like, Katherine. I know people who look at the
world like this and talk like this, like, so. I did. I did
what what all good researchers should do I use the podcast
index API people search in search for Katherine. Oh,
Adam Curry: right
Dave Jones: on Excellent. Yeah. To find all of the all of the
podcast episodes that she's been interviewed in live listening. I
like it. Excellent. And I'm telling you, it was awful. She,
when I say I know people like this. Not trying to be nosy.
Adam Curry: Are there people like this in Alabama? I mean,
oh, yeah. No, for sure.
Dave Jones: You mean people that think they're smarter than you?
Yeah.
Unknown: That's what we're talking about. Yeah. The
Dave Jones: people like this are insufferable. They just will not
stop talking about in arcane terms about just the, the most
miniscule that like the it's just all minutia all the time.
And it's it's clouds of connected terminology that
you're trying to, like. It's like a fog. You're trying to get
through you listen to 20 minutes of it, and you're like, I don't
even know what she just said. You
Adam Curry: are You gotta you gotta send us Send me some
links. This sounds like no agenda material. Oh,
Dave Jones: man, I brought a bra. These clips are
unnecessarily long just so that you can understand what she's
like. Okay. The, so she speaks like Chad GPT so let's just call
her cat GPT. Okay.
Unknown: very flowery flowery? Yes. Yes.
Dave Jones: Catherine is Cat GPT. So when it's like if so, if
you went into a laboratory and said, like, it's 2024 Build me
the perfect NPR CEO. Yeah, they would build you this lady. She
talks about governance, constantly institutional
governance. They're not looking for truth. They're looking for
consensus on what is not disinformation. Like, there is
so it's just mind bogglingly boring.
Adam Curry: I'm getting the electricity ready to create her
in a lab.
Dave Jones: So clip one is she starts Where's where's this
from? What
Unknown: podcast? Is this from? This is from the podcast?
Dave Jones: Possible. Think that's the day we'll need to
make sure that. Okay, it's from possible. Possible? Yes, this is
Reid Hoffman's podcast.
Adam Curry: Oh, another fine specimen. He's a big donor. I
think he's a big NPR don't you should be a big NPR donor.
Dave Jones: I feel light. So this this. This was from January
24 of this year. I feel like I feel like this was sort of a
tryout for the NPR CEO gig. Some of the questions were seemed
oriented in that direction. Oh,
Adam Curry: that would make sense. You have to go through
even Okay, you got to do reads. Isn't the on the board is a
board I've been feeling that he's a This isn't Reed Hoffman
at Reed. Hoffman and PR. So he's the Salesforce guy. Right.
LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I'm sorry. Yeah, let me see. Yeah, I have a
feeling he's the only appearance board. He would be the kind of
guy that you would have to go by, you know, it's like, Oh, you
gotta go talk with Reed before we can get you in, you know,
big. If you get reads endorsement, then you're good to
go.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I can't tell from here. But it would not.
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But this sounds like I
think this is this was prior to her being at NPR, of just prior.
And this just feels such like a like a job interview or at least
just a sort of a face TAs and FaceTime with somebody that was
already probably had taken the job because in a couple, a
couple points in the interview, she started, she starts
referencing to she's using the term wiki, Wikimedia in like
past tense, right, and that kind of thing. So but she's in this
clip when she's talking about institutional. There's two clips
are institutional trust. As hard to see it's, it's almost
unclimbable, but it was like, it's like institutional trust.
And how did it it comes from the black breakdown institutional
trust comes from diversification.
Unknown: I think the internet has been catastrophic for trust,
but perhaps not for all of the reasons we might think, when I
say catastrophic, I think that what has happened is not that
the internet has destroyed trust it is the internet has surfaced
fissures within systems and, and allowed them to grow and grow
publicly at an exponential rate. And so when, for example, we
think about trust in institutions, which is something
that I'm very interested in, and that comes to sort of
institutional governance, institutions fit for purpose.
And I mean, institutions in the abstract and in the literal
sense. So the institution of universal suffrage is an
institution, although doesn't have like a brand name. The
issues that we've seen there is that many of these institutions
were built around a sort of homogenous population that they
were serving. They were not terribly responsive, both in
terms of accountability to that population. And then when we
started to see increasingly heterogeneous populations, due
to immigration, diversification, civil rights, movement, etc,
etc. We started to see how those those institutions were were not
actually sort of fit for purpose. What the Internet has
done is it has exposed those fissures in ways that are
related to both. We now interface with all sorts of
technologies, platforms and services that are hyper
responsive to Do our needs in and have created an anticipation
of a much more frictionless, much more productive set of
processes services, outcomes SLA functional human SLAs human
Adam Curry: SLA s really? Hey, yeah, I thought you would like
humanist human SLAs service level agreements seriously?
Dave Jones: So imagine, imagine 45 minutes of that. I mean,
Adam Curry: I mean, what did you? What do you think she
actually said?
Dave Jones: I know exactly what she said, Because I listened to
it and no lie like eight times. I think I know exactly what she
said. What she's saying here, is that, that NPR, okay, so is she
talking about institutions? Is
Unknown: NPR, NPR? Yeah, yeah, that it qualifies
Dave Jones: under that under her definition. So she's saying that
NPR was built to serve a specific group of people, that
that group of people being upper class white people. And that's
the true problem with it as an institution that that's how it's
broken. Okay, that's the truth that that was that it didn't
just break. I
Adam Curry: honestly, I would still say just upper class. I
don't know if NPR was specifically servicing white
people. I mean, you know, Cory Booker percent of
Dave Jones: their audience is white is according to the stats.
So that's what this is. But this is her, you know, this is this
is her frame of reference here. Yes, I got it. She's saying the
internet, like social media, YouTube, podcasting, et cetera,
just exposed that already existing problem. So to her the
core issue and NPR is that it was only serving a core audience
of rich white people in the internet, just exposed What was
our that existing problem? And I mean, this, if you look at John,
like John Lansing there previously, yeah, this is very
much on point with what he was trying to do with a company when
he was there. He was trying to he was trying, he was very much
on the same mindset. Evidently, he was trying to change that.
But the problem is, if you change MPRs target audience,
what you have is no longer in PR. Well, you don't have
something different.
Adam Curry: What this says to me, what this says to me is this
is proof. You can't monetize the network. When because people who
want who like even like NPR programming, because that's what
your podcast app does for you. I put it together. I got my own
podcast network of shows that I like, that's what changed?
Dave Jones: Well, I think what they did well, I think, yes, and
I think, but I think they looked at their they looked at their
audience and said, it's, it's a bunch of rich white people. Oh,
that's how they looked at it. For sure. Yeah, yes. And then
they said, so what we need to do is change ourself, and we'll
change the audience. But the problem is when you change yet,
is when you do that you don't you no longer what you have,
what you've created now is no longer NPR. You have something
different that's, and that's very much in line with what the
commenters on the New York Times article, were saying they, they
were saying that over and over, they're saying I feel alienated.
What is this thing that I'm listening to it didn't used to
they, these stories are like, they're talking different than
they did 20 years ago. It's boring. Now. It's Bah, blah,
blah. And so like changing your audience is fine. If if what you
want at the end of the day is a completely different audience.
That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily. But
you have to stop and ask if that audience if that different
audience wants you. Yes, yes. Well, also they might and they
might not. I mean, you, you know that you already like, you know,
you already have a committed audience. And I'm just talking
purely about NPR here. I'm just trying to be blunt. If you're
NPR, you know, you have a committed audience of rich white
people that every year get about $100 million worth of tote bags.
But is this new audience that you're changing to? Are they
going to do the same thing? The answer, we see the answer, the
answer is no. That's how you lose $30 million. Yeah, it's
because
Adam Curry: well, in so radio, then there's a whole bunch of
things going on here. I mean, what I ultimately see is the
we've seen a very, very slow collapse of broadcast across the
board that the newspapers are done is done and but there's
always going to be a couple that make it obviously yeah, that
hang on to that, you know, we still have, we still have a ham
radio stations that that are hanging on, you know, a ham
radio networks but but basically is gone. The In fact, the main
market that radio stations are supposed to serve is their local
home market that's gone, that that by itself is gone. That's
what the internet data is, oh, I can I can listen to a market of
interests, you know, doesn't have to be a geographical
market. There's other offers, if you want to know what's going on
in New York City. Besides, you know, the the morning radio
shows, which coincidentally in general, are basically one guy
like Elvis Duran at z 100. He has 20 stations across the
country. So he's talking to all different kinds of markets at
the same time, not just New York. So this, this collapse, I
think, is accelerating. And that's what you're seeing here.
Also the cost the overhead, that's why they put so much.
They you know, they brought their radio values to
podcasting, they put up you know, $1,000 Neumann
microphones, it said, this will work fine. We can have, you
know, 15 people on radio labs or more even, it's like, no, no,
this certain, that's not the economics anymore. It's the same
thing with streaming video. And streaming video is going to have
this exact same problem. You know, Disney is a great example.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe, well, you know, we're catering
to to, to kids who identify with white superheroes, we got to
bring in some gay lesbians as black lesbians. And they're now
the superheroes and then so you ultimately start alienating both
sides pandering. And what is this? Yes,
Dave Jones: that's what I think happened to NPR here. They
decided they wanted to diversify, diversify their
audience. And in doing so what they ended up with is having no
increase in black and Hispanic listeners and a decrease in
white listeners. Yeah. So they basically went in, in reverse
they the new the new audience they wanted. And again, there's
nothing wrong with the what they wanted. The new but that new
audience they were wanting never materialized. No. It never
Adam Curry: got it wasn't there. The audience was never there for
what they were making. Yeah, it turns
Dave Jones: out black and Hispanic people just don't care
about NPR. That's fine. Yeah. Like you can't make them care.
No. And, you know, they, they, those populations, by and large,
evidently have, you know, media they already listened to, and it
suits them just fine. Yeah. So so they, so NPR, just basically
just foot gun to itself. And they didn't start by by laying
off and chopping a bunch of radio people killed the
podcasters,
Adam Curry: they shot the horse that actually had a chance.
Dave Jones: Your old audience feels alienated and now you're
new, the new audience never showed up. And so that's like a
recipe for bad times. Click clip two is like, I think clip two is
how a glimpse of you know if you think that she's going to fix
things at NPR, the clip two, it'll give you a glimpse of of
that future.
Unknown: We've also seen that we now have the ability to record
in real time with with examples of where those gaps actually
are, which make the the the failures of those institutions
even more evident to a greater number of people. That to me is
sort of the primary issue relative to trust in this day.
And age is not really around, oh, my goodness, my algorithm is
serving me information that I can't trust. It is actually
around a set of expectations about how institutions should
function in our lives, and are and where those institutions are
falling down is responsive institutions that are consistent
and accountable in their purpose and effective in their service
delivery. Absolutely. Then there are questions of like, well, why
is the media not trusted? And, you know, what does? What does
sort of social media have to do with all of that? And I think
that those are useful questions, as are the questions around
what, you know, what is AI going to do to are like the
construction of false information. But I think that
they are secondary questions to this primary one around what is
the internet shown to us about the institutions that have
historically governed our nation's our lives and where are
they not fit for purpose? And I think that this is actually a
really important and essential question. If for those of us
like myself, who believe very foundationally that institutions
should be a responsive to all people, but that institutions
are perhaps the most important part of stable democratic rights
respecting representative governance.
Dave Jones: She's not doing it she's not going to change a
single thing to her. To her, she said Things like trust in media
are secondary issues that we can talk about those later. So what
she's she was cut, she came into this gig with the idea of which
basically with the exact same frame of reference that they
already had, that has been shown to be a complete failure. So
Plan A didn't work. And Plan B is basically a bunch of question
marks. I don't know what to do.
Adam Curry: Well, they're also NPR severely hampered. I mean,
that's the history of NPR, with the local station strategy is
just hampering. That's the whole problem. They have a network of
stations. And and those stations by programming, some of the make
programming Sella back to the network. That idea is just over
I was talking to I don't know if I talked about this, I my buddy
wanted to see him in Dallas for 60s, this brother came and
actually knew his brother, but his older brother before I knew
Vic, and Steve was the was like a junior engineer at the time,
but he later became the senior engineer of big broadcast
companies. I think it was Emma's first and then it was in Clear
Channel. And so and he knows a lot and the television stations,
the local television stations, they're done. That, you know, a
local ABC affiliate is done is all over. They're going to
close. There'll be bought, and they'll they may do one program
to try and do some local news. But the the network's they don't
want to pay for anything anymore. It's like no, no, it's
all closing all of that the network node model of broadcast
radio and television is gone.
Dave Jones: Is it because it's so like our, for instance, our
local ABC, CBS, NBC Fox affiliates, you're saying that
those things are in television, those things are going to just
be gone? Yeah,
Adam Curry: they really have no reason to be broadcasting
anymore. I mean, yeah, they're still going to try terrestrial
digital broadcasting, but it's really over. The model has
broken because you just you sell you can insert as at a local
level, you don't need a local sales first. You know, all of
that stuff is gone. Gone. Gone. And it's way too expensive.
Dave Jones: Is that a drag? financially? Yeah. mothership?
Oh,
Adam Curry: big time. Yeah. And the motherships they've all
expanded into all these additional businesses. The ABC
now is of course owned by Disney, but they, you know,
they're trying to divest of ESPN and the in this, sometimes
consolidation doesn't work out too good. If if if things you
know, if the if if the world changes, and this is what I love
so much about podcasting, this is what I love, the audience
gets to determine what their, their their menu is, what they
like listening to how fast they like listening to it.
Unknown: I'll add that.
Adam Curry: Unfortunately, yeah, well, that's, you know, that's
my personal beef. But ultimately, you know, the
technology is there, you can do whatever you want. And, and as
we've seen, the, the audience also determines if I want to
hear ads or not, they'll just load an ad blocker. And that's
coming, that we basically have that in podcasting. It's called
the Skip 32nd button. That's a form of an ad blocker. Everyone
has it. And everyone raises their hand. Yeah, I skip the
ads. So so something is fundamentally broken. And also
the, because of the supply and demand, you know, the days of,
you know, the NPR because I saw the numbers, the NPR Morning
Edition host they each make, you know, 400 grand, if that's,
that's your will pay, yeah, that's, that's over, you just
gonna have to get by with less and, you know, make an
outstanding product. And you'll be okay. And subsequently, the
idea of I have to be number one. Because if you're not number
one, or have the most downloads or the biggest audience, those
days are gone, too. I mean, there's always going to be your
top dog and something that everyone's crazy about, and
there will always be infrastructure for that. But
it's but the people who can actually get in there 1% will be
0.01%. And the most the you know, the most interesting stuff
won't even be there anymore.
Dave Jones: I didn't realize that, that in prs. I didn't
realize that they've only been around since 1971. Yeah, that
Adam Curry: was when the Corporation for Public
Broadcasting was created.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that was surprising that they're that
young. And
Adam Curry: also, they really, they really started to rely a
lot more on underwriting. Yeah, yeah, of course, it was pure out
pure advertising in the podcast market. And so they lost that
value for because when you hear the NPR pitch, you know, a lot
of you and I listened to one NPR To show religiously on the
media, on the media, and and I've actually sent the money for
it because I felt so disgusting. I had to send some money. But
now I know that it's not going to on the media is going to NPR
and that makes me feel icky. Because I really liked that. I
declined the tote bag. I really, you know, they, you know, if, if
pivot if they asked me for money, I'd send the money. Stuff
that I listened to I will support that and they kind of
let that go, but their pitch is now well if everyone sent $1 We
wouldn't even having this conversation. Yeah, that's not
gonna work. That and you're also devaluing you're devaluing your
product? Well, is it really just worth one buck? You know, what
is it worth to you? Does it brighten your day when these are
very easy pitches, but instead they went for Squarespace and
you know, all the other stuff with a with a code with a code
bond, Gino? You know, they went that route and yeah, then you
live and die by the ad market. And and if you can't see that
CPMs are always a race to the bottom downloads race to the
bottom, particularly when you have an ever expanding universe.
Dave Jones: The original 1970s npr logo is pretty killer. And
Adam Curry: now you also see even though James won't write
about it, but you know Megan Markel ba big announcement with
the limonada. But there's no money. That's why she's not
doing it. They say, Well, you know, we can probably get your
50 grand on the ads, maybe 100 and 100 100,000. May be but
that's advertising based. You know, she has no relationship
with the audience.
Dave Jones: For me, it's just, it's yeah, it's just like the,
like the Obama stuff. A Obama's same thing. Exactly. Yeah. And
Brene Brown, honestly, there's just no, no, there's no, there's
no, there's no organic connection. And let's be
Adam Curry: really honest about it. He's my friend. But Joe did
not get $250 million. You know, every report says, could be
worth up to. Yeah, right. You know, based upon ad sales
performance. Yeah. And probably, I mean, I don't know if Spotify
sells, if they cut it, because I think originally they had a deal
with YouTube. And he let Spotify deal with YouTube and add money
there. And so I'm not sure I don't know anything about the
deal. But for sure, I know when you're jacking into Joe Rogan's
podcast every 15 minutes with an ad, just bones right in the
middle of it. We're scraping the bottom of of what we're doing
here.
Dave Jones: Yeah, you were telling me about that. I'm not a
listener to his show, unless there's somebody a specific
guest. I specifically want to hear, but you're telling me
about about the new, like the ads now. They're pumping them in
all the time, every 15 minutes. It used to be that way used to
just be a bunch of pre rolls, and then there was no ads during
the show. Yeah, no,
Adam Curry: no. Well, that everyone, of course, skip those.
But those were the early days. You know, I was like, oh, you
know, you only had 10 minutes of ads. Everybody knew 20 clicks.
Pam there. And these are hosted ads that Joe doing the host read
ads. And honestly, you know, he loves every product and uses
every single product, I'm sure.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, for sure. They're all in his garage,
Adam Curry: you know. So, but and I think he also I think also
he lost some influence to a degree.
Dave Jones: Really, from what listen by by
Adam Curry: not being on open podcast. I think it hurt him.
You know,
Dave Jones: not being on YouTube.
Adam Curry: I mean, he he honestly he doesn't care. He
really doesn't care. Joe does not care. He doesn't do the
business. I don't talk to him about he didn't talk to anybody
about business. If I said, hey, hey, you need to be on value for
value. He'd be like, I talked to my manager. I don't care. I
don't care. I don't care. He did that show for years, without
even knowing you could make money on it. He just wants to do
he just wants to have fun. That's Joe. That's that's why
he's successful in what he does.
Dave Jones: Right? Because it's a focus on the content. Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Curry: Yes, other people to deal with that. And he's one of
those people that can still be top dog in, in what he's doing,
and then that infrastructure will support him. But I doubt
that that's the kind of money that's being made. I really,
really doubt that. Now, so you're telling me that he has
that he has a quarter of all podcast advertising revenue?
Dave Jones: No, no, I can't see this. See that? That's the case.
But who knows? Maybe
Adam Curry: but but All those deals and Spotify gave up, they
just gave up. They saw it wasn't working, they save face and they
gave up. And here we are. Here we are right back where we
started.
Dave Jones: The edit audio books fired a bunch of people in now
been raise prices. And now here we are.
Adam Curry: And Joe is as a much higher output right now he's
doing a show almost every single day. I know why. Because he
knows that he has real competition. And and I think he
enjoys I think he enjoys the competitive nature of getting,
you know, these interesting guests first, you know, having
them on and then, you know, there's there's a huge benefit
to in this case, I think that's the only place where video makes
sense to me. Is is highly clippable people will watch
three minutes of video on x. And then and then say yeah, no, I
heard that episode.
Dave Jones: Every PP said he's back on YouTube is that? Yeah,
that didn't realize that. Yeah. I thought he had an exclusive
video deal with with Spotify.
Unknown: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, yeah,
Dave Jones: that makes that Spotify deal look just pretty
much
Unknown: kind of weak. We don't even know what the deal is.
Yeah,
Dave Jones: I mean, like, it may, I guess what I mean by that
is it makes it makes me question. The reported details
of that deal even more. But ultimately, I'm just happy
Adam Curry: to Joe's on my podcast that are that I can
watch if I want to watch minute, which I don't. But I'm happy.
The only thing for YouTube, the only reason that I will look at
that is to look at the million comments. Like the comments are
always interesting, because a lot of people comment on his
episodes. That's why I'll sometimes go take a look at the
episode on YouTube or just switch over for a minute. But
usually, I'm just listening to it. But that's really what I
love about Joe, I don't I don't care if he makes a billion
dollars or $0. And I don't think he cares either. It's easy for
him to say but for myself, it's the same way. I would you know,
we do this podcast for no money. We do a lot of things. Just
because we love it. Surprise.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, as long as long as we pay for the
results we pay for the index and break is honestly breakeven on
the index this I mean, the the show this show is our is always
just been, like, weekly. Let's
Unknown: just affidavit
Adam Curry: is catching up. Exactly. So on that note, let's
move over to activity pub, because there's been a lot of
posting a lot of stuff going on. And the one thing that did catch
my eye in general is Dave Weiner not being happy about the move
towards activity pub in general for Federation. Okay, and when I
think Federation isn't is the correct word because that's we
are, in essence looking to federate the podcast apps. Is
that a fair? A fair way to put it?
Dave Jones: federate, I guess, federate, in terms of the Fetty
verse or whatever? federate,
Adam Curry: comments, federate, ratings, federate reviews,
federated follows federate, likes federate? Yeah, so
everybody has, there's a federation of, well, exactly
what it's called Social interactivity around podcasts
and their episodes.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
Adam Curry: So does it work yet?
Dave Jones: Only me what a day. I'm trying to I'm trying to work
up to care. What day was that? What did he What did he say?
Adam Curry: He said, Hold on a second. I should have had that
mean if
Dave Jones: there's a if he's got a legitimate beef. Well,
then I mean, I'm willing to listen, I think
Adam Curry: it's, you know, it's like it's not it's not not
invented here, but it's Hold on a second. His site is loading
very slow for some reason. Here it is, when did he post this
thing he posted on Monday, the the idea of us all working
together to federate, is the right idea. But making activity
pub, the hurdle everyone has to jump over is in my humble
opinion, the wrong idea. I'm building on feeds RSS atom RDF.
A lot of good stuff works on that basis, and it's a much
shorter path to interrupt then activity pub.
So I, and I think he's looking more not looking at podcasting,
obviously, but he's looking more at how bridges that bridge, you
know, feed a into CES. I mean, I see activity pub, kind of as an
aggregator. You know, it's like I can I can follow or subscribe
to certain feeds at aggregates them and then I can do something
with that which in turn I can turn around and other people can
aggregate what I did with it
Dave Jones: this is this This comment is too vague to, to
really even know what what to respond to. I mean this because
I mean our RSS is for good, okay, we made RSS work as a so
as a as a Pub Sub mechanism. With Freedom controller, I
could, I could post something on my microblog. And it would show
up on your on your newsfeed, you could hit reply, which would
reply in your RSS feed, referencing that item in my
feed. And then my since I follow you, my news feed would pick up
your reply out of your RSS feed as a threaded reply to the thing
that I originally that was actually
Adam Curry: a very cool thing you built there. That was that
was pretty amazing.
Dave Jones: Yeah. And we call that like a pull pull only
social network. There was no, there was no push involved.
Adam Curry: Right? The problem was everybody needed something
hosted somewhere.
Dave Jones: Right? Which, which is still the problem with
activity pub,
Adam Curry: yes. But the infrastructure has been built
and people are using it. That's the difference. Like there's
eight people with a freedom controller. And there's millions
of people who have an account on an activity pub instance, with
some front end be it Pleroma, Mastodon, etc. Well,
Dave Jones: I mean, he's, he's right, in the sense that, I
don't know what he's, he gets off into the he's using the term
interop. And I'm not sure what he means. But I mean, he's right
in the sense of simplicity when it comes to feeds when it's just
Okay, so an RSS, a podcast app is just polling or at polling
RSS feeds to look for new content, that's about as simple
as you're gonna get theirs. And that's no different than typing
in a website address and letting the page load here, right?
There's no, that's, that is more simple than activity pub,
because you don't have activity pub now. Now you've introduced
now, not only do you have what you could call a feed, which
might be the outbox, but you now have a sort of Verbling like a
verb layer on top where you're having to push action. Yes,
Adam Curry: the verb layer is the right description.
Dave Jones: And so you know, you're having to push actions
back and forth to servers that are listening to each other. So
this is the difference between you know, something like just
polling an RSS feed versus web sub, or, you know, or pod
paying, where you're just basically listening for, for
events.
Adam Curry: It was interesting, it is a mind bender, in a way,
because I was listening to Sam and James talk on last week's
podcast, weekly pod news weekly review. And it was so obvious
that James was not quite grokking, the idea of how
activity pub fits into this federation of apps. And he was
he's he can only at that moment, I haven't listened to the whole
show this week. At that moment, I could tell like, Oh, you're
almost there. But you still thinking in terms of commenting
on a post and stuff like that. Whereas you've got to remove
that whole layer from your vision. And, you know, when we
talk about activity streams, that's nothing more than a user
RSS feed. Okay, it's JSON, it's serialized, whatever you want to
call it, but it's still, that's a, that's an RSS feed. Let's
just call it that for the moment that I am creating as a user.
And my content is actions. My Content is things I'm doing. And
it relates directly to a previous post, which is an
episode or a show itself. And that is, in effect, aggregated
and redistributed or made for following and redistribution by
activity pub. Right. So it's kind of like you have an you
have a feed aggregator that can turn around and and syndicate
that out to everybody who's interested. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Yeah, if I if I have an RSS feed, all I need is I
need just one file. If I have an activity pub relationship to the
world, I need Need a server? Yeah. Yes. And that can Can I
need a server that can that can speak and listen both. And so
you know that what we're trying to, you know, what we're, what
we're looking towards is for with with activity pub in the
future is not at all easy.
Unknown: No, no, no, no, it's not. No,
Dave Jones: it's in Dave's Dave's right on that point. It's
not at all it's
Adam Curry: a hurdle. It's definitely a hurdle. Definitely.
But, but we
Dave Jones: went from zero to pushing Bitcoin around in real
time. Yeah. So that we can do hard stuff. You know, that's,
that's not it's, it's not I'm not scared of that. I'm not
scared of doing hard things. And, you know, another issue
with with RSS, I don't mean issue in the tournament, in
terms of it being bad. I mean, like, another one of another one
of the considerations here with with with RSS, from a historical
point of view is that servers used to be very expensive. Yeah,
it really was like to run a server really was a, a financial
burden. So being able to in bandwidth was a financial, big
financial burden. So I mean, if you think about that, I mean,
RSS made sense for that time period is still does I mean, I'm
not, I'm not slamming it, it still does RSS made, made more
sense than something like activity pub would have back
then where you're going to have to run a actual server that's
doing a bunch of things. Now, nowadays, the dynamics around
all of that has changed the financial burden. And they I
mean, let's, and just the technical know how required to
run something, as as a small server is much more accessible.
Well, besides so I don't ever feel limited anymore. I suppose
it took a decade or so for us to create an infrastructure for
feed hosting.
Adam Curry: And so there's 1000s of places you can go to host
your feed. And it's to the point where it's invisible. Nobody
understands I heard I heard some sports guy. And it was a, there
was something about ads being placed in front of his podcast
and in the way he saw his I Have a hosting company says, And they
uploaded everywhere for me. Okay, and you know, and if one
of my my episodes doesn't show up on Apple, they say you forgot
to upload to Apple. He people don't even know how it works
anymore. And we're still like, we got it in our heads, right
feed aggregator we all we can all connect those dots very,
very simply. But people don't don't see that. They're like
that I'm using this. And I guess you have a hosting company. They
upload it everywhere. They just make sure that file is uploaded
to every platform. That's what that's what people think. Even
podcasters don't realize anymore how it works. Yeah, because we
build so transparent, like you said, Yeah, but we built that
infrastructure, which and so now instead of let's set up little
servers to host little mini freedom controllers so we can
interact with things now there's an infrastructure and it runs an
activity pub and it's called Mastodon, you know, just for for
all intents and purposes, but we don't care about the mastodon
part. We care about the, the the plumbing, which is activity pub,
which we can use beautifully to our advantage.
Dave Jones: Right. And that's the part where it gets hard. Of
course, okay, yeah. Because you're, you're now you're now
starting to speak, speak a language back and forth to each
other. Yeah, it's no longer just to get requests. Now. It's now
now you know, now syntax is important now. Now, the wire
level protocol is more complicated. I mean, these
things are. Alex had a great point yesterday. So one of the
things that one of the changes I made to the namespace this week,
if we're going to do some namespace stuff, is that for a
long time, the social enter the social interact tag has only
been allowed, like by spec has only been allowed in the item.
So in the episode level, and there there's always people have
always wanted it to be in the channel itself to
Adam Curry: people being a channel people being James
Cridland. Now, there were
Dave Jones: others. I mean, he wanted it to be there and he
wanted it but there were others like in the original
discussions. That was that was a one of the original discussion
points was you know, Why should we why should we limit this? And
that kind of thing? Yeah, I think, and
Adam Curry: I'm not against that. I just I think I disagree
with the fundamental argument that shows that a smaller
audience will have less people interacting. I'm not so sure
about that. Yeah. I mean, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.
Some Yeah, it's, the conversation is irrelevant.
Yeah, it's fine. Put it in the channel. I got no problem with
that. Can I just make one more analogy? Yes. Almost everybody,
including me, has a Google login has a Google identity. And this
Google thing does a lot of things for you. I typically use
it. If there I'm signing up for something that I really just,
I'm just trying something I really don't. This is my burner
account. And so I'll get a verification through my Gmail.
Yeah, I do have PayPal link to it. So I can do Google Pay,
which sometimes is just super easy. So that universal login
account is, is in fact, what your Macedon, I'm just using
that as a global term. Login will be for your podcast, your
podcast app, so that we can then do something that I doubt Apple
will ever ever do, I doubt Spotify will ever do is we can
be communicating all of these different interactions amongst
each other amongst a an ever expanding universe of apps.
That, to me is super exciting, and blows away all competition.
Because then the cool kids are over here. They're interacting.
They're commenting, just like Rogan, people go to YouTube to
comment. Now I say it's all about comments, but even
discovery of oh, look at how many people are following this
podcast. That is a very, very, very compelling thing.
Dave Jones: Yeah, and you could see that that would build up,
you would build up a community of peep of podcast listeners who
are dedicated, like app level listeners, they always use a
podcast app. Yeah. And you and they would be posting, you know,
they would be be doing actions back and forth. Commenting,
reviewing rating. Adding adding things to play lists, yeah, yes,
shared playlists, recommending
Adam Curry: function recommending your own pod roles.
I mean, you can have all kinds of stuff that can really become
a social graph. I said it, but it's really true. It's really
true. It's really true. You're you're you're making available a
social graph that you can then that will enrich your own life.
Dave Jones: Yeah, and that one, and that would be its own sort
of community, you know? Yes. Like the YouTube, like the
YouTube community or whatever it is it for that evolves around a
specific, a specific host or a specific channel or whatever you
want to call it. But then it just but then it just
propagates.
Adam Curry: Yes, everywhere. Everybody can get a part of it.
And then that can go out to websites, and more businesses
will, will sprout from that just I mean, I can see Daniel J.
Lewis, revamping his entire business of this as possible.
Dave Jones: Well, if you if you're going to in this, this,
this comes back to you know, social interact in the channel,
and now you have some sort of some sort of tie back to, to, to
the social interact. If you serve some sort of tie back to
activity pub in the channel, then you can you have a starting
place for pushing for pushing actions back and forth
Adam Curry: about the podcast, right? Like, follow and that
kind of stuff. But yeah,
Dave Jones: not just follow up, like you said, ratings or
reviews. So this may be something Daniel may be pulling
this data out, to pull into his service
Adam Curry: was like someone there because he's almost sent
me a note the other day? Are you familiar with this website
linked to good pods? We really need more representation over
there. And then I'm like me out. Well, my people don't, you know,
they don't go to good pods or whatever, whatever it's called.
You know, then there's other but the, you have all these little
places where people congregate and talk about, you know,
they're fake, they're the one or two podcasts or, or group of
podcasts. And we can bring that all together. Now, good pod
should be a part of it. They should be federating with with
the apps through the pub.
Dave Jones: Yeah, cuz they get there. They're a comment. Yeah.
destination, there are this place where those things happen
and reviews and all that. But it's funny, you think that if
you have a protocol that that means that you can just do you
think that once you have a protocol, you can just extend
the protocol. And you don't have to worry about like things like
breakage, and that sort of stuff. But but it's not really
that simple. Because you still have chicken and egg, things
that happen with even within an existing protocol. So for
instance, Mastadon. Like we, if we, as we go down this road, if
we have things, we're going to need new new objects. So now
maybe a note object is not enough, we need something
different, like we, you know, just just as a crazy example, we
talked about a pod pod ping or activity pub. I'm not, I'm not
really thinking about that these days. But if if we had that,
let's just say I'm just trying to grab an example here. If we
had that, and you had an A pod ping object within activity pub.
Well, the existing activity pub class, they don't know about
that they have no idea what this thing is now, they wouldn't know
what to do with it, they will know what to do with it. So that
you're still have a chicken and egg thing. Now you have a you
have a shared protocol. So you can, that's this may be
extendable, but it's but it's really not that different than
something like a namespace and an RSS feed support has to be
built in. Okay, so just initials and that's the hump you have to
get. Okay, this is okay, this is good for me of edifying. So, the
hurdles that we're seeing is, so let's just, let's take some
let's take some simple things. What can we actually do with the
existing
Adam Curry: activity pod protocol? Before we would have
to create you know, new verbs namespaces, blobs, whatever it
is, can we do podcasts I follow?
Dave Jones: You would.
Adam Curry: So for instance, so if you live, you look at my
profile in on podcast, index dot social, right. And this is, this
is just a very basic thing. But you look at my profile, the end,
here, you can see, posts, posts and replies media, but they can
also see following and I click on following, it shows who I'm
following. And you can see followers who's following me.
Can we use the active out sub forget if it's, if I had to
create a whole new activity pub account? Let's just forget all
that complicated stuff. Could you a bare minimum, be seeing
which podcasts I follow? If my app put into my activity pub
account that I follow these accounts, which are all
podcasts? Is that am I making sense? Am I making sense? Yes,
you're
Dave Jones: making? Yeah, you're making sense. So you would you
would enumerate your, like, we would have to basically, we
would have to tag these actors, these podcast actors as podcasts
through I'm not, not sure exactly how we the best way to
do that. Right now. I'm trying to envision what the actor
object looks like. But we would, we would basically identify
these actors as podcasts, then someone would query your follow
your following list. And then be able to see, okay, 75 of these
250 follows that you have our podcasts? To me, yeah, that's
yes, that's not a burden. I mean, that's the that's, that's
doable. So as to whether you will see there's two levels, you
can do it, you can just sort of like tag the actor in some way
as a podcast, or you can sort of you can define a podcast actor,
which is a whole different sort of, right, I got you more
involved. And then that's the part we have to jump over a, you
know, a log
Adam Curry: in Harvard says, I actually have zero desire to
show everyone what I follow. Sure. I mean, but that's not the
trend. People love. beefing up their profile letting people
know, I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's a fact of social
interaction. People like that.
Dave Jones: Some people like it, some people don't. Some
Adam Curry: people don't, but a lot of people do. I mean, it's
just like, we now have the podcasting 2.0 logo emoji, which
everybody can can add to that which I like, you know, it's
like hey, virtue signaling that I am a member of this group.
Boop, I mean, this is things that are cool. You know? So
these are all, you know, this is a podcasting, 2.0, podcast, all
these different things. I understand what you're saying
now. And that's an important part that I hadn't really
considered that we that, yeah, it'll work if if you're all on
the same instance that understands these objects or
actors wherever you call them. But that would be something that
would have to that everyone has to implement that just like a
namespace in order for that to work.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, we've done
Adam Curry: it before we've done one namespace, I'm sure we could
do another one. We've
Dave Jones: done two, we've done two namespaces, where we did SOP
ml and podcasts namespace. So we're, we know how to namespace
stuff. You know, we, if anybody's good from start with
starting from egg, absolute scratch is probably us. But I
think we can. I mean, in any activity, pub is not going to be
the solution to every problem. You know? Nothing really is.
There is no, there is no protocol. That is the solution
for every problem. You pick and choose. That's why we still use
XML for RSS feeds. Yeah. Because it's fine. It works. It's fine.
That's not we're not we're not we're nobody's changing this.
And the way and so when it comes to social interaction of a
certain extensible type activity Pub is, is the right choice for
that is the right tool for that job.
Adam Curry: You got that? And that was gonna be my next
question. I mean, am I barking up the wrong tree here or
social? First, we have to agree is social interaction desired?
And I say yes, I say social interaction between podcast apps
is something that will turn it into a very, very powerful
entity. I think so too. Is activity pub, the right
infrastructure based upon its limitations, versus its
availability to many people.
Dave Jones: Okay. All right, in my opinion, yes. So when it when
it comes to social interaction between apps activity, pub, to
me is the correct answer. Why when it comes because it's, it's
got this, this is similar to watch why to choose a crit one
crypto over the other or whatever. It's, it's sort of a
constellation of, of different factors, you have to take into
account. It's, it's not super complex. It's got, it's got an
ease of understanding to it. It's got market share already,
it's already got momentum. Like lots of it paid, it's often
running. So you're not so it's not hurting, it's in it's got
support within most languages, like it's got libraries for most
languages that will support the basics, okay. There's example
code out there, there's that kind of thing. And then it's,
you can, it's already been, you're already seeing being
done. Apps are already federating in using this
protocol. Okay. So it's, it's got sort of like a, its
pedigree, at this point, makes sense. But when you versus
something like a Noster, where you're where you're starting,
you know, you're trying to grow scratch from nothing. Yeah. And,
you know, ignoring or ignoring all the downsides of the
protocol itself. I mean, it's just purely trying to get
something off the ground from absolutely nothing. And there's
no network effect, you know,
Adam Curry: I'm going to ask you, I'm just, this is how we do
it, Dave. With that in mind, the energy so taking your scale,
right, is the energy and I can't believe I'm saying this is the
energy and the, the amount of I think energy, not velocity, but
the amount of veracity that is, this velocity and veracity. So
activitypub has velocity noster has veracity. And in effect, if
you want to add something to the Nasr protocol, we will find much
more. A much easier path, I believe. Then going to Gore
Gonzalez, whatever his name is Gorgon and saying Hey, David
Dave Jones: Gergen,
Adam Curry: Gorgon, we need we need we need this hey, these
crypto bros over here with free speech we want to have this
added to Macedon. I mean I've just thrown that out there. I
understand all the issues and I Alex GATES I love you don't
don't get mad just yet. And is asking the question. Are we
very, very sure activity Pub is the right way to go taking the
velocity versus veracity into account? Because as I've always
said, Nasr is a solution looking for a problem.
Dave Jones: But no, I think I think activitypub is the correct
solution because nostril has the same exact problem
Adam Curry: with a smaller group to convince, who may be more
enthusiastic to make it woman,
Dave Jones: I don't know that I would go that far. Okay. Maybe
because noster has the same issue it has. Look how many nips
there are. There's like seven bazillion of these things. You
look at your typical nostre relay, and it supports maybe 40.
There's there. Oh,
Adam Curry: yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's always comes down to the
instance or the relay or whatever. Yeah, it always,
Dave Jones: there's hundreds of proposals that just never get
anything done. Right. So it's but
Adam Curry: the way I see it is it's entirely possible that just
as true fans will become a full native activity pop client, and
will service its users with an activity pub instance, a login
that doesn't act at all, like a mastodon server, but just does
the activity pub activity pub Federation, will that mean that
podcast guru basically needs to do the same for their users?
Dave Jones: See that said again, I'm not sure I follow.
Adam Curry: Oh, instead of me bringing my existing activity
pub account, which is typically linked to a mastodon, right? Is
it easier to bootstrap this by the developer, the app
developers having their own wishes, a whole nother burden, a
whole nother can of worms, having their own activity pub
running, either in client or as a server to service their
customers, their app users for the social interaction with
other apps.
Dave Jones: I think that's the only way this really gets off
the ground.
Adam Curry: That's this is this is a big thing to understand.
Because
Dave Jones: I agree with Matt airhead in the chat because he
says he says his comment is Mastodon is a really poor
example of activity pub and got it. I don't think he's right. In
one sense. I mean, it's a good example of it. If you're if
you're if you're ill, if your aim is is to show what it can do
as a proof of concept for for a use case, like I'm having
trouble describing this. Okay. There's a reason why whenever
anybody comes up with a social protocol, they the first thing
they build, just like nostra did the first thing they build as a
social network, right,
Adam Curry: which is kind of death. Yeah, it's because
Dave Jones: it's the first because it it, it's an easy sort
of way to, it's the same reason to all example, code apps that
like how to build an app one on one always starts with like an
RSS reader. It's just this easy. Hello, World type. Yeah, here's
my protocol. I'm going to show it off. Right. But he's right,
in the sense that, that it's a poor, it's a, it leaves you with
a poor understanding of the full capabilities of what can be
created with this thing. It leaves you it sort of leaves you
wanting. Because you because you what you end up with is
thinking, you're in a box, you're stuck in a box, you're
thinking okay, oh, what this this is a social media protocol.
But that is not really, it's, it's capable of much, much more.
I mean,
Adam Curry: which, and I'm least interested in the social media
aspect. As most of these things pop up. That's why I'm always
saying, let's do something really simple, like a star. If
we can all get if I can hit five stars on one podcast, and
everybody else can see that on in their app. Champagne all
around.
Dave Jones: Right? Yeah. I mean, are those things like, play?
Yeah. Well, that's odd. Caddys native thing that activity pub
could do that you can't do through RSS to speak today.
Wonders point.
Unknown: Right.
Adam Curry: Just just seems like I don't know what I do with I
don't care if someone's well, maybe I do. I'm more I'm more
interested in aggregate. Like what's the rating? What's the
what's the what's the star rating? What is followed a lot.
This is the stuff that people always think they can get from
the index, which we don't have. Like how many people are
subscribed to this podcast? So that stuff that was interesting,
or? Yeah, let's just leave it at that. I mean, we I think we need
to pick one thing that hopefully is not comments that we all say,
okay, we can implement this. And and I agree with the who said
that in the Todd, I guess geek news that the podcast guru has
pod chaser login here to pod chaser. And I'm never going to
do that. Now I want either, I'm never going to do it. Now. And
for the by the same token, if it said, log into your Mastodon, a
lot of people probably won't do that. But if it says you're
logged into podcast guru, which I am, but I have some kind of I
know, I have some kind of login credentials for podcast guru,
because I can synchronize it somewhere or pod verse or
whatever. You know, that's, I'm feeling better about that. And
then what that does in the back end, if that's connecting to an
activity pub, that's great. I'm just fine. Hey, I can see. I can
see how many people follow this podcast.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, this, that the login with POD chaser
thing is a way to give a cast first party data about about
listener metrics. Got it? Let's just be honest. I mean, that's
what that is. But you know, so Nathan said, I'd love to hear
your thoughts about the open API for podcasting data. I have got
that in my notes here. And I've got a bunch of stuff to to say
about that. I'm not sure we have. I can't I feel like it's
gonna be a long conversation. So I'm not sure we have time to go
over it. And I actually want, I want to talk about it. I'm gonna
talk about it next week. And because I may, actually, uh, may
actually try to get some code up and running on that this week.
Adam Curry: And to what is this? I'm not familiar with this.
There's an open API standard for podcast synchronization.
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's the open podcast sync API.
Adam Curry: Never heard of.
Dave Jones: And, well, I mean, it's very nascent, it's facing
you. But I want to get I want to get a little bit more off the
ground on that. I have tons of thoughts on it. And I think it's
an very interesting idea. It could relate to this also. Okay,
to to activity pub, I kind of want to I want to let I actually
want to do some coding on it. I would not mind coming up with a
Adam Curry: reference server for this. And what what is this? So
that means your subscriptions can sync between apps?
Dave Jones: Yes, subscriptions and other types of other stuff?
Uh, huh. Related to, to relate it to your catalogue, and what
you're doing with
Adam Curry: it, I think that's how I feel like we went one step
forward, two steps back, but it's okay, because that happens
in these iterative processes. But I just like, I just have a
high level overview. And that's, if we can connect these apps
together, which I'll just call federated federating. But
interrupt, call it whatever you want. I think that's a big win
for podcasting for the independent apps that can do it.
Because everyone else would be left out in the in the in the
dust, it won't be as interesting, right? Now, then
write a review, or what are you going to say, Go write a review
on Spotify? Now, do that on these apps? Because then there's
these other 20 apps that get the same information?
Dave Jones: Yeah, just do it right in the app. Click on your
five
Adam Curry: be, you know, basically a pod roll for app
users.
Dave Jones: Yeah,
Adam Curry: click on your five favorite you know, when you when
I heard it on the podcast guru, that should be an activity that
shows up somewhere and lead this many people heart this podcast
because they like it. And then you could even drill down what
else is this guy? Like? You know, I might like that other
stuff. There's your discovery. That's, you know, people have
this idea that YouTube's gonna give them discovery, but new,
but this is discovery native to what we're doing. And if we can
do that distributed through activity pub, or the open
podcast sync API doesn't really matter to me what's under the
hood. But what a giant leap for mankind. That would be
Dave Jones: great. Yeah, yes. I mean, the Yeah, and all this the
open podcast sync API. I can see that being this is what I want
to explore is is a sort of a need to get a mental model of
how this could federate. Because I think it can. It The other
thing is we want to a promise we'll talk about this on the
next show. I just, we've talked about so much already. I don't I
don't think I can do Hampshire handle the mental bandwidth of
that. Yeah, but because of my notes are like I've got like six
levels deep in my outline here about the podcasts, he KPI. But
the other thing we got to remember is people people don't
always want many people, myself included don't want their the ad
don't want a single identity online. Gotcha. You know what I
mean? Sure, sure. You don't want to you know, I
Unknown: don't have it either. Like, I don't have it either.
You know,
Dave Jones: I want to segregate my identities out into different
use cases. Like I have my podcast index, does social mass,
you know, activitypub identity. If I go, if I go and have an
identity within the within the sort of federated podcast app
world, I don't want that I'm not going to use my podcast indexed
or social Id got it, I'm going to have something different.
Because I don't like I like the compartmentalization of these
different things because they serve me in identities online
are meant to serve you. And they serve me in different from, they
serve my needs in different ways. That's the thing that
always creeps me out about this sort of digital identity stuff
that d&d stuff is there's always behind it, this sort of notion
that is only going to be like, universal Single Sign In. Yeah.
Where You Are you everywhere and no government. Don't
Adam Curry: worry, the government will give you that
don't worry, that's coming.
Dave Jones: Waiting for my mail.
Adam Curry: Exciting, and I'm looking at this open podcast API
looks like a lot of people started it. We're interested
antenna pod funk whale cast pod friend G Potter looks super
interesting.
Dave Jones: The first reaction to it is just use OPML. But the
more I thought about it, I'm like, No, this is actually
legit. This is better. This is this is better.
Adam Curry: Can I talk about a different to interrupt project
that is taking place?
Dave Jones: Yes, you can.
Adam Curry: So I've had some ongoing conversations with Cody
from the side stream music podcast. Now he's a radio guy
who are either he still is a morning show here in Texas. And
he is now putting I think it's actually there's a call of
course it's happening right after today's board meeting,
which I saw I can't attend their call. Now this
Dave Jones: is this is this guy that was on the wavelength show.
Yeah,
Adam Curry: that's Cody was on the was interviewed by the
wavelength, guys. Yeah. Okay. And so Cody really loves it.
He's a live radio guy. And he's been, I think he's now episode
25 of the sidestream music podcast. And he knows a lot of
the artists and you know, he's a real driver. I mean, like, like
many many of the, of the guys who have shows in the in the
music in the V music space. Now he he has a good connection
friendly connection with the CEO and founder of wire ready. And
wire ready is basically a radio playout system so very similar
to em heirless which I use. So why already you know, it has
your cards and then you can you know your soundboard, you can
cue up songs, and then you can play and so for both live and
recorded shows, key is now connects they're gonna have a
call with I think Dobby das tins Dobby. I think Cody's already
hosted with RSS blue.com. And what they're trying to do is
create a version of wire ready, which you know, typically is
licensed to radio stations for not an insignificant amount.
This guy wants to play value for value. So that you can you will
be able to download this wire Ready program, you can then
create your podcast with it, it would hook into I get in
initially, I guess RSS blue.com I don't know exactly what
they're going to come up with. But the idea is, you fire this
up, be say I'm looking for a song, it hits the podcast index
API, just like the split kit does or any of those other
things. So you can search you can cue up your songs you play
him and then on the fly it tracks everything and then
outputs your chapter and your value time split JSON feeds for
upload to your host so we have two full days and it will also
activate you know a live stream whatever. So we'll have all in
one bundle and it'll do value for value so you know he's gonna
want some value is going to want to be in the split. So at
anybody can in essence download this there'll be a special
podcast version And then you can go live you can record it for
upload later and it will do all the allow you to search the
music and do all create all the very much the way the split kit
does it and then all integrated into into one application that
is a professional app for wow this Yeah, isn't that cool?
Dave Jones: That's fantastic. Yeah,
Adam Curry: yeah I'm very I'm very excited about that. So I
guess read Yeah, yeah.
Dave Jones: I mean to it okay, we're talking talking about me
that's that's pretty cool. I mean, if this if this there may
be a need to get in there and fix some of the API or about
around music there's some Yeah, of course there's some issues
with but
Adam Curry: the thing is Dolby Das is in the middle so he'll
he'll he already knows how to access all that stuff. He knows
the the the problems so you don't you know Dobby das will
contact you. And I hope I think Barry should be brought into
this you know, the podcast 2.0 native hosting companies.
They're really the guys that can that can work with this. But I'm
super excited. Because now you have not only something you can
easily create a podcast with, you know, like a front end that
you get to your host but then all this all this other music
stuff is built right into it. I think that would that's going to
be so exciting to
Dave Jones: have a native sort of a native experience. Yeah,
yeah. So my wife sent me this couple of days ago that she
she's a fan of this guy. Allen Google. Or Google rings
adventures and Australian guitar as Australian guitarist. He's
He's writes beautiful music. Alan G as last name is G O G O L
L. Go Gaul or something like that. Beautiful music. Just just
fantastic. Artist. And he posted this a few days ago, he says is
with a heavy heart that I can confirm Apple Music has removed
and blacklisted much of my music and continues to do so every
day. This is a significant portion of my livelihood gone.
CD Baby have been unable to help me at all. Being accused of
buying fake streams for my music. There's absolutely
nothing I can do to stop this. I've simply been ghosted by
Apple and CD Baby and told don't buy fake streams. They're not
only accusing me of this, but carrying out permanent judgment
as well. I have offered my full financial records to show that
I've never paid for streams nor do I need to. And why would I
continue to destroy my career like this? If I was buying fake
streams in over 20 years or releasing music this is the
worst experience I've ever had with no light at the end of the
tunnel. If you're a lawyer willing to help me please email
me or DM me thankfully, my music is on Spotify still unaffected.
So please consider listening there. This is you know, wow,
what happens to happens when you're in that ecosystem? And
Adam Curry: is no one no one to call? No one answered the phone.
Yeah, no, they
Dave Jones: all just say Sorry, can't help you. Wow. And you're
potentially blind lost half your income. So I mean, having this
is not this is not just all fun and games where we're all just
kind of pretending you know, obviously not pretending we're
we're all kind of just having a good time. Writing software.
This is potentially important for for real people in the real
world making real money shall we? I think having a plan B you
know,
Adam Curry: should we help somebody out with some real
money? I would love to Okay, I got a banger for you. It's a
Friday afternoon bang Are You Ready? Ready? Yes all right. I'm
ready for banger myself. This is the velvet I heard them on the
phantom power music I thought yeah, this is perfect for Friday
afternoon.
Unknown: Salmon
she's my sweet
she's my speech.
Adam Curry: Ask
Unknown: she's my sweet
she's my team
she's my sweet
Adam Curry: you ready for the weekend here, the pelvic suite
shapes. Everybody who went to the bathroom raise your hand.
Dave Jones: Oh, that was seeing the yellow pad or on buildings.
That's a great name.
Adam Curry: If you're listening to this podcast, if you didn't
boost during that song, go ahead rewind it, and you can even
pause it and then just boost them. boost those guys. Let them
know and let them know you heard it on podcasting. 2.0 the board
meeting?
Dave Jones: Yes. Brought to you by the gates in wallet switching
technology. That's right.
Adam Curry: The magic gates you and wallet switching technology.
Yeah, that's good. That guy kept me awake.
Unknown: I like that. Yeah, I like you're good.
Dave Jones: It helps wake you up after the NPR CEO. Yes, indeed.
Indeed. Well, thanks for people.
Adam Curry: Oh, you're I mean, we can do we can do another
topic if you wanted to. I mean, I How are you on time? You got
to get out. Yeah, I
Dave Jones: gotta go back to the office.
Adam Curry: You got a harder Okay, yeah. Let me let me bring
up the life boost. Let me see what we have here. of the ego
Eric pp 3333 sets for sweet cheeks played on podcasting. 2.0
Perfect. Thank you very much. dribs got 3456 He says hey, I
thought that hive was the solution for all problems. It is
of course the solution it is of course a solution. Brian, I'm
not I'm not going to deny it. It's a solution. It is a
solution. 3333 from Jean Everett's Thank you would just
says boost. Todd Cochran 1000 SATs. Adam many podcasters do
not know what a right click on a mouse is or scroll on. Welcome
to my world or scroll. Yeah, welcome to my world. Yes. Yeah,
I understand. Yeah, I understand. But, you know,
people aren't stupid. Yeah. People like to learn. Listeners
certainly do audiences do. Salty Crayon 1776. Patriot boost.
Here's little value to help balancing the podcasting to
point no budget since the Fed has zero motivation to balance
there's go podcasting.
Dave Jones: The Fed doesn't have a budget. They just have a it's
just a blank. They can just write whatever they want. And
they're called monetizing the debt.
Adam Curry: That is exactly what it is Jean Everett roadex 2222
Happy Friday. Happy Friday to you. Todd Cochran has 5000 SATs.
He says I seriously need a clone go podcasting. I'll give you
give me that. Well, would you look at this 5000 SATs from pod
friend Martin.
Dave Jones: Hey, Martin.
Adam Curry: He lives he says hello. I think I think I missed
a show or 10 I've been I've been so extremely busy with life, the
universe and everything. I hope everyone is doing well. Yes. We
miss you Martin. Boy do I would
Dave Jones: just like to I would just like to talk to Martin on
the phone and hear about his job and
Adam Curry: yeah and his marriage and his house and the
crazy country he lives in and you know all that stuff yeah
we'd love to know I would love to get happy I saw I saw him pop
up on the on the Macedon the other day
Dave Jones: I thought I was seeing I thought I was seeing so
I had to do it don't make so much someone hacked
Adam Curry: his account or this can't be
Unknown: yeah
Adam Curry: let me see we have that it Yeah, hit the delimiter
low boosted today very low boosted. Yes,
Dave Jones: it's very little but since we did as we did as Pe
files, we have actually two very low paper knowledge as well. We
have $5 a one off from Truman Gillette. Thank you treatment
for Stage five bucks. very appreciative. And Kevin bay from
the podcasting 2.0 Endowment Fund he says this is my monthly
is $3.54 monthly from the endowment fund I need to grow my
fund.
Adam Curry: Grow your show grow your fund Exactly.
Dave Jones: Todd's here he can tell you how to grow it. We got
some good guess boosted we guess we got a pot home. I'm assuming
that's Barry. Yeah, that's gotta be buried in 1000 SATs through
podcasts. Gary says thanks for listening to about podcasting
www about podcasting dot show. Great show was Sam guys.
Adam Curry: Yes, it was good show. Good show.
Dave Jones: See we got 3045 sets from Sam Sethi Speaking of the
devil shows up through true fans he says true fan support from
Episode 176 angel number Thank you Sam. Appreciate it.
Anonymous boosting everyone see listening our song from last
week says groovy yeah thank you Groovy is that is that it is
surely that's not it.
Adam Curry: Really? That's it? No
Unknown: that's not right. Can't be
Dave Jones: Kevin Bay 20,000 SATs through pod verse he says
some somehow some way 1.2 million SATs pass through my
little V for V music podcast sets and sounds since I started
Wow. I'm absolutely baffled by it all. And I'll spend my
portion own activitypub education. Well, thank you.
Appreciate that. He's He's a double helping of Kevin Bay
today. And we got 3045 from Sam Sethi give us another boost
there no note from him. And then that's it. Yeah, we got we got
the delimiter 24,000 SATs from chemistry bloggers saving saving
the day.
Unknown: Yes, yes.
Adam Curry: Thank you CSB.
Dave Jones: Through fountain he says, How do you Dave and Adam.
Today I'd like to recommend this podcast to your audience. Join
Phoenix and phone boy for some healthy happy, higher
consciousness. With some high tech high jinks on the side.
Come experience the Lotus effect for yourselves at WWW dot Lotus
effect dot show. Yo Josie
Adam Curry: pcsb always on the download. Yo Thank you very
much. We did just get I see we got it. We got an x boost. Kami.
Oh, hold on a second. We got two more boosts coming in. striper
boost 7777 from Steve Wilkinson. Oh, CG works he says we just
want healthy adds the benefits that this benefits listeners and
creators I've purchased many things based on trusted
podcasters a bet. And then under the wire 45,678 SATs from Dred
Scott he says boost and go podcast a podcast.
Dave Jones: Drib is a double as a repeat customer this week as
he came in with our monthlies with $15 from drip.
Adam Curry: Thank you, man. Thank you so much.
Dave Jones: We got Shawn McCune $20 See where Matt James
Sullivan $10 Christopher reamer $10 Jordan Dunnville $10 Michael
Kimmerer $5.33 Charles current $5 Michael Goggin $5 and con
glotzbach $5.
Adam Curry: What a beautiful What a beautiful bunch. Y'all
are just a beautiful bunch. I really I looked at the tally
coin real quick. Guess what, then? Absolutely nothing.
Absolutely nothing from the tally. Did
Dave Jones: we get any runes,
Adam Curry: runes? You know, I always my my daughter sometimes
needs a little help with the rent. You know, she's a social
worker these days. And so I'm like, like, Yeah, I'll send you
500 bucks, like $20 fee.
Dave Jones: Yikes through?
Adam Curry: Yeah. That was the
Dave Jones: bit you do debit Bitcoin
Adam Curry: transfer Yeah, I like this room stuff better stop
whatever this I mean I'm like, I'm like kid you better get a
lightning account you better learn how to pay for stuff in
lightning because this is getting crazy.
Dave Jones: Speaking of that do we need so I've gotten in touch
with strike to see if we can get into their API just for no
specific reason really I just want to try to understand some I
just want to get get my head around a little bit of
onboarding, so maybe I can just be better informed about Oh,
sure. That's always good things around that. Yeah, and I want to
do we need to look at opening up maybe a set channel to strike
Adam Curry: we can we can open Well, I mean, yeah, I
Dave Jones: don't know how they control that.
Adam Curry: That's a very good question. I'm sure that the lb
or the breeze boys would know I'm sure they they're all they
all they all fat pipe each other. may sound weird. I'm
sorry. I didn't mean to sound weird. Just slightly.
Unknown: Yeah. Yeah,
Dave Jones: maybe we need it. Maybe we need the fat pipe on. I
Adam Curry: did get a little concerned. Over this recent was
it samurai wallet. Now these guys were clearly doing
something. They were advertising, like, Hey, you got
illegal money that you got in Bitcoin, the gray markets and
black markets will mix it up for you. All right. That's never a
good idea. Not a good. But the. But there's all kinds of
government institutions saying hey, you know, the, you're not a
money transmitter, you don't have a money transmitter
license, you got to be careful. So I'm just saying, We got to be
careful with that stuff.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's, I kind of want to get my head around
some of that and make sure that's not
Adam Curry: really clear, as always, with all this stuff, but
some of the writing is obvious on the wall that the main thing
is if you can do it with accountability, and KYC just
made a mean that your bank should basically be the witches,
I think is what strike really does. I mean, you you do have a
some KYC connection when you hook up striker to your bank.
You know, it's like, yeah, you
Dave Jones: have your walkie strike. KYC is you I mean, you
have to give them the right info.
Adam Curry: So you know, I think that that's just going to be a
given in our future. And the, you know, the idea of anonymous
money in this world is going to be very, very difficult. Unless
everyone's on a Bitcoin standard. You know, it's like we
only buy and sell stuff in Bitcoin, which I do in many
respects, for lots of stuff. But it's just kind of going to be a
fact of life. I don't think we can get around it.
Dave Jones: While I love Rob, I can I can say this about Rob
because he doesn't listen to the show.
Unknown: Love to the show. Really?
Dave Jones: Yeah. He said he doesn't listen to the show. He
said. He said, Yeah, okay. Kay said occasionally
Adam Curry: haters, haters over there. Yeah. Well,
Dave Jones: he told Todd. He told Todd that Bitcoin was
illegal in India and this is not true. Illegal is not illegal in
India. Illegal is India. This is fake news. It's their bank.
Banks over there do heavy KYC on crypto stuff, but it's not
illegal. It's not any more illegal than it is in the US or
the UK.
Adam Curry: Yeah. That's right. I put Rob's most recent article
in the show notes. Did you Wow. Because I thought the title was
just show notes worthy. is adding video the future of
successful podcasting strategy.
Dave Jones: Oh, he didn't put that in the show notes. Of
Adam Curry: course I do. Of course. Oh, because you know,
enhances your monetization potential. It first it
personalizes and it personalization and complexity
and storytelling, video podcasts offer a rich platform for
storytelling. You can have synergy with social media
trends. I'm reading it. Yes.
Dave Jones: Can you please play the Katherine Mark lips again
because there's more interesting.
Adam Curry: I appreciate Rob. I appreciate it, but I just don't
see it. No,
Dave Jones: I hadn't.
Adam Curry: I just don't see. I just don't see it. Wow. Okay. So
I, again, this was one of those board meetings where we got in
deep and, and I feel like we did get one step forward, maybe two
steps back but it sounds like you're going to be doing some
deep dives and we're going to come up with some more stuff and
I look forward to lots of Convos on the past I'd cast index dot
social. Everybody likes to weigh in. I love that. I love that.
Yeah, we're a little area there.
Dave Jones: Got some more namespace stuff to do this week
and hopefully I'll have some. Hopefully I'm going to I'm going
to have a better fleshed out idea about open podcast because
I want to talk about that primarily next week. Okay.
Adam Curry: Do we have a guest next week? Oh, good. Okay. Just
you and me baby. Just the two of us just to say brother had
yourself a great weekend. All right, everybody. Thank you for
being here in the board meeting. We'll be back next week Friday.
See you then.
Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast
index.org For more information, go podcast
Dave Jones: so that we can do hard stuff