Adam Curry: podcasting two point over June 22 2024, episode 183
chain of fraud oh, what's going on? It's Saturday, but it is
once again for the official board meeting of podcasting 2.0
Everything you need to know this going on in podcasting,
everything happening in podcast index dot social and there's a
lot going on their podcast index and of course the namespace. We
are the only boardroom that meets on Saturday when Fridays
don't work out. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas
Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who bakes more namespace
tags and Betty Crocker does cookies. Say hello to my friend
on the other end the one and only Mr. Hey, sugar. I'm glad
you're back. Hey, baby. Oh, that's
Dave Jones: traveler.
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's a homecoming. Yeah, sorry about
last Friday and yesterday, but here we are. We could not could
not have a board meeting skipped two weeks in a row. So we just
moved it over to Saturday.
Dave Jones: They were going to have a two week Skipper coming
up soon again.
Adam Curry: Oh, that's right. Because you're going on
vacation. Right? You're actually going out? You're leaving him
leaving.
Dave Jones: We're just you know, we've been around so long that
now we're just starting to you know, we're cruising. We're
Adam Curry: getting we're getting jaded. Yeah, podcasting.
2.0 I missed the first thing we could chop off the list. You
know, I gotta live exactly. I've
Dave Jones: been reading this book called. is fantastic book
highly recommended called lab. 257.
Adam Curry: Okay,
Dave Jones: you know, this will No, I don't. Do you know the
Plum Island?
Adam Curry: Oh, yes. Yes, I know all about Plum Island. I think
that's where we got I don't know why I'm disease from. Yeah,
Dave Jones: it's a few things. Yes. West Nile virus. A couple
other things. Yeah. It's the gift that keeps on giving. And
that this book is about the history of Plum Island and is
like the it started off as a germ warfare facility under the
under the army. Then it transitioned to an animal.
Animal virus research lab. Yeah. So they said like, yes. So they
say. And so this, this book that goes through all like, you know,
FOIA requests, and all of these declassified documents, just
like what really happened during this timeframe. And then, like,
what's obvious is it starts out as strict containment, you know,
all of these rigid policies about airflow and positive
ventilation pressures. Every time you come in and out of in
and out of a hot environment, you got to take a shower. So
maybe they're showering, like seven times a day. And then
like, within about 10 years into it.
Adam Curry: I don't need to take a shower and
Dave Jones: lunch. Even lunch right next to an open thing of,
you know, rift valley fever. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Buying stuff at the wet market. Oh,
Dave Jones: yeah, exactly. Yeah. Eaten bad. So yeah, the whole
thing. Yeah. That's interesting. I, it's hard to keep it up. You
know?
Adam Curry: Yeah. So I was in the Netherlands for for a full
week. I was pretty interesting. Actually. Friday to Friday to be
exact about it. It was nice. Yeah, it was nice. Yeah, I went
to visit my daughter, but I also didn't know agenda meet up and
there was nice, lots and lots of lots of podcasts and people just
nice. He's cool. Did
Dave Jones: you run into anybody who was from the podcasting? 2.0
sphere?
Adam Curry: No, no, no. Okay. Yeah. No, everyone. Everyone has
a podcast though. That counts. Everybody seems to have one.
Dave Jones: You didn't You didn't run into the mysterious
Satoshis industry? No,
Adam Curry: I although I did. They made me an official node
runner forgot who that the node node runner guys. Are you
familiar with
Dave Jones: this group? That sounds really familiar. Yeah. So
I
Adam Curry: guess there's people who run full nodes and and they
have their they have podcasts and they gave me it's like a
little knighting ceremony and they give me this pin. Whoa, a
node runner. Yeah, I feel I feel very special. That like a no
drunk and
Dave Jones: I feel left. A little left out. I mean, I want
to be a node runner. I run a node. Yes, you do. Don't the
pin. The pin is cool.
Adam Curry: Anyway, so I've been trying to trying to keep up with
with everything. And I don't before we bring in our guests,
should we should we talk about some namespace stuff because it
seems like you've had a lot of updates and I don't know if if
you if you're up to it. Sure. I'm updating him on we need to
do that. And now it's time for some hot namespace talk. Here's
the stuff that I wrote down. Okay, I wrote down ln addresses,
which seemed like a big one. I wrote down boost UU ID. I wrote
down improve the description of splits and fees, which is seem
it seems like one we might want to skip again. And then and then
some stuff that has been proposed medium equals radio and
events, which is coming out of the I think that's a lot of true
fans push from those two. Have you seen these proposals?
Dave Jones: Yeah. And Nathan's involved in that right, Nathan?
Nathan keeps pushing out some new stuff. So let's wait to talk
about Elon address until until our guests arrived. Okay.
Adam Curry: Oh, that'll be okay. Yeah. Let's see. Boosts UU ID. I
saw that. Where'd that come from? What is that? Exactly.
Dave Jones: So that's an that's an older pull request from Dobie
Das. Let me just go through what has been added lately.
Unknown: Okay. That's just the better idea.
Dave Jones: Just to kind of give some context here. Let me pull
up the namespace real quick, not prepared to go into the edit.
Did inspectors go in that quick? Well, we've
Adam Curry: been avoiding it. And you know, it's a Saturday so
we might as well just take the pain now.
Dave Jones: See, changes made? Here we go. So yeah, it's so far
with face seven is some of this goes back to May. But just face
face seven. So far, we've formalized the chat tag,
podcast, colon chat, the publisher tag with the
associated publisher medium. And the added the course medium, to
Yeah, added the coarse medium to the list. And which Alex is now
added course and publisher and the corresponding publisher L
and course L to the schema for that will be sucked into the
next version of pod paying that will enable these mediums,
Adam Curry: that's ce o u r s e for people who want the course
as an as an a course you can take and so that what is the
main? What is the main difference of how a course is
displayed? Or what are the main parts of that namespace? Have
that tag or that medium? Yeah,
Dave Jones: the course is about the course is a you know, look,
look. educational thing. Yeah. So if you're going to take if
you're going to take a course, like liquid berry from pot home
does, right.
Adam Curry: So of course, so does it do? Is there anything
specific that needs to be specified? In course, or is it
just telling you what it is? I mean, it's a different way of
displaying the episodes is there what what is because I've seen
various thing you have to pay to actually get it right.
Dave Jones: Yeah, so well, you would have the the coarse medium
just just gives a hint to the app
Adam Curry: shouldn't just be medium equals paywall or
Dave Jones: bad. I mean, I guess I guess you could,
Adam Curry: we should probably have that too. Might as well
medium equals paywall everybody,
Dave Jones: mediums, medium equals you can't have it. Yeah.
So the course would be something like, you know, the app just
needs to know, okay, what order? Do I need to display these these
in? What's what's, um, I
Adam Curry: guess? There's a lot of these because I guess that's
my question is, what is the display? What are the display
options for a course?
Dave Jones: I'm thinking about, you know, there's these sites
like Udemy? Is that is that one? Think there's something else?
Yeah, Udemy online courses, learn anything on your own
schedule this like a, like, there's a lot of these kinds of
sites where you where you learn a course and it may have what is
in the description may be end up being beside it as a follow
along or the lyrics, I mean, excuse me out layers, but the
transcript may be, you know, handled in a special way. Now,
you know, instead of like with a medium equals music, that
transcript is lyrics with the medium equals course the
transcript might be the outline of, you know, the of the course,
or there might it might look for certain basic ako I'm expecting,
I'm expecting as part of this course there's going to be links
that are important to there where I can go and like I like
the funding link, maybe the maybe the paywall, like you
said, I mean, we don't know yet but okay, it seemed appropriate
to give it its own medium since it's its own media type. Okay,
Adam Curry: but doesn't that need to be defined?
Dave Jones: Well, yeah, I guess, but it doesn't mean but also, we
never defined music as far as like the details of that music
was like we all kind of. Okay, it would be liner notes or in
the description transcript is the lyrics. But nobody but
there's not that's not decided designed anywhere. So, you know,
I think I think this is one of those things where you'd have
to, we had to see what people do. Okay, fair enough. Yeah. But
basically, whatever Barry wants. Yeah.
Adam Curry: Well, that's what I'm saying. So if berries
courses is an example, then that's an exam was good for me.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, it's I think, I think it's okay for him
to set the standard on this. Very cool.
Adam Curry: Then as so and so the course equals L what's a
playlist them I guess? Yeah,
Dave Jones: like a list of courses. Yeah. Because they have
a bunch of he could have a playlist of course is all about
Dino or No, Jas, or whatever. Okay. And then. So then last
night, I merged in a, an older pull request from W Das. To add
a boost UU ID. Yeah, as an optional value on the TLV
record. And that was an addition to the blipped in spec. So
there's, there's there's been a UU ID in there forever, where
you could say, okay, the UU ID property of the to the record
identifies a user. And I'm putting you up and I'm putting
identifying quotes. I mean, it's it's a,
Adam Curry: it's an optional thing it's sent, right? Yeah,
right, right.
Dave Jones: So it's usually just some random string of
characters, just just so you can try to get some idea of
uniqueness of where the things are coming from. Is this the
same person boosting you over and over is is my different?
Even though you have no idea? I have no way to trace that back.
And
Adam Curry: this is, so that's something that would be
generated by the apps.
Dave Jones: Yeah, okay. Exactly. And but so then WDS has said,
Well, you know, here's the problem is that if one boost
generates five splits, then those splits all go to different
places, and you can't really tell where whether it was all
part of the same boost or not. Was it three different you know,
was it safe safe? It goes three different split destinations?
Then what do you know that a rule is the same split that did
it? Did did it three times? Or was it three separate ones? Or
what
Adam Curry: what is what is the point? What exactly do we want
to know with this boost you ID tracking of what
Dave Jones: the tracking of of like trying to determine whether
or not the whether or not a boost? Okay, so you on the
receiving end, you just receive a payment? Yeah. And you don't,
but you don't know whether that payment was part of this was
just a split, let's say you get five payments. Was that? Was
that five different boosts? Or was that somehow three splits
three split paying five split payments from the same boost?
You don't you don't know. So like, this would be. An example
of this would be maybe like, you have heli pad running and you
have set Saturn or the Alby dashboard running. And you're
looking at both did somebody send you and you see two splits
that you think are the same from the same underlying boost? One
on the one on each dashboard, but you can't be first you can't
be sure that they're the same, but if you had a boost, you you
ID, there was a random value included each time. You could
say okay, that's the same that's that's two splits from the same
originating boost.
Adam Curry: Hmm, okay. I still don't quite understand why you
need that. I mean, it's fine. I just look at helipad I don't
look at anything else. I only need to look at one place and I
see something come in and I see the person who sent it I see
it's a split what the percentages
Dave Jones: mean please let's see if I can find what I
Adam Curry: don't have. I only once I accidentally put put the
same note in twice into a value block and that was confusing.
But once Okay, hear it out then. But it doesn't seem like I mean,
I don't know it's just I don't quite understand what it's for.
Dave Jones: But Dobby das explained. He gave me an example
he said my example use cases this RSS Blue has a 2% split to
display booster grams to creators. If both a song and a
music show are hosted at RSS blue, we receive two payments
when a song is boosted during the value time split. There is
no exact way for us to determine if it's a single boost or two.
Adam Curry: Oh, okay, so yeah, I got Okay, I see. Yes, I can see
where that where he needs that as a whole giving that Yeah,
okay. Yeah. And
Dave Jones: when when you release your album and play that
on booster Grand Ball, you'll need it too.
Adam Curry: I was thinking about that use case like, I'm not
gonna release an album. I will never need this. But
Dave Jones: if you ever do, there'll be.
Adam Curry: Alright. Okay.
Dave Jones: So then what what I'm working on now. What I'm
working on now is I'm just making my way through the list
is the Latin is the ln address lightening address attribute on
the value recipient in this, this ended up. I went into this
thinking this would be an easy addition. And it ended up being
sort of a can of worms.
Adam Curry: Oh, good. Well, we'll talk about that one in a
moment. Yeah, the, the only other two ones that I'm just
seeing floating out there. And I'm trying to pay attention to
what, what Sam Sethi is doing with true fans because he tends
to do stuff and, and then says he supports it. And I just want
to make sure everyone's heard about it. Because so one is the
event, which is kind of an interesting, I was listening to
to Sam's tech corner on pod news weekly review, which seems to be
promoting his his ideas, his tech corner. And these as
issues. And the event. So I kind of was interesting, because in a
way, it's like, wow, how sad is it that podcasters now have the
same business model as musicians where we can't make any money.
So we have to do gigs. We have to do we have to go out and and
and do shows and merge with merch. Yes. So the event? It's
there's a lot going on there. Because you know, I heard and I
think it was easy doing that with what was he working on that
with? Said Nathan that it was working out with Don that with
Nathan?
Dave Jones: I could have sworn Nathan was involved in Yeah, I
Adam Curry: think so. And the pod two guys, it just so so you
can have I'm not quite sure what it is other than there's an
event and then you can publish an event in your feed. Just as a
separate item. Have you looked at this at all? Well,
Dave Jones: yeah, it's like it's like a Yeah, like, like a
reference to an upcoming event. Okay, like, we're like we're
gonna do. But here's the way I read it. Maybe Maybe this you've
read it differently. But here's the way I see it, is that you
have an upcoming like some this happens a lot with podcast. I
don't know if it's any new podcasts you listen to. But a
lot of the podcasts I listened to people are the hosts will
say, you know, have a pre roll and be like, Okay, before we
start, you know, no, we have a event coming up in a live show
coming up in Boston. Yeah, sure. Honor. 25th Blah, blah, blah. To
me, this seems like a way to programmatically put that into
the fee. Right, so so that you so that the player can show you
and link to tickets or whatever.
Adam Curry: Okay, so it's a separate item that that it's
just an item that has an event with event information in there.
It's not it's not linked to a specific episode, or is it?
Dave Jones: It's a remote as a link is a remote item. Okay.
Yeah, to a specific theme in where the feed is going to be
the remote event, there's going to be the lava, so
Adam Curry: it would like would be treated as the same way a
live item is treated as a separate entity somewhere within
the player. I
Dave Jones: believe so. Yeah. This display of app is TBD. But
I think the I think a good use. My mental use case for this
would be like Ainsley Costello has a new she has multiple feeds
right now of different things. She could put this in there,
announcing an upcoming show, the live show, and that would be the
reference to the feed that's gonna host the live shot.
Adam Curry: Okay, got it. Got it. That's it. Okay. That's
cool. That's cool. That was a lot going on. Yeah,
Dave Jones: yeah, there is. And, um, I mean, I would think that
the, the feed that would take the remote item reference to
that feed is going to carry the live event would also have in
it, like, you know, put a funding tag in a value block and
all these kind of, you know, ways to support it, the live
event or get tickets or whatever, okay, all right. Then
linked to the merch store merch.
Adam Curry: I love I love the whole Hey, I will have tickets.
You can hit a pod ping and the ticket mount will update Mike
Okay. All right. I like it. I like it. We got to figure that
the final one that I had which, which I don't think we need to
delve into but just It's a way of medium equals radio. Which
is, which seems like which is linked to a pub. This is kind of
what we're talking about, for the past few shows about a radio
station. And some I got to figure out what Sam has done
there. Because it's he says it's linking to live items from a
radio station. But I'm not quite sure exactly what he's doing
there. But it seems to be a list
Dave Jones: Yeah, so net so Nathan's explanation for it on
the GitHub would be if a radio stations set up here, he this is
quite I'm quoting Nathan, if a radio station set up podcast
feeds with a live items for all their shows, and connected them
with a publisher feed, then podcast apps could aggregate
those live streams together into a publisher level radio station
without any new tags. Okay. I like it. Yeah, I like it. Yeah,
wait for it. Yeah. Yeah. No agenda stream could do that.
Yeah, sure. Excellent. Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. All those shows
together into into nodes, industry, radio station or
whatever.
Adam Curry: So but it would be stuff after the fact or even
into the future.
Dave Jones: I guess both, okay. Because you know, you because
it's all it's all being pulled together, all those feeds are
getting pulled together into a publisher feed. Now that we have
publisher feeds Nathan's saying, I'd love to hear y'all discuss
the warrants a new medium versus not is the threshold a tailored
listener experience? I mean, he know that squishy nice. I mean,
squishy
Adam Curry: is the right word. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Because sometimes, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, some,
some of them are obvious. It seems to me. Yeah, I think to
me, it is a matter of, to me it's a matter of is this content
different enough than a podcast? So that the app really does need
to change his behavior to handle the content? Like, does the app
need to know in order to give a sane experience for the for the
listener when playing this content? So we for all of it,
you know, obviously for audiobooks that is the case
because you're gonna have to Okay, now these things, these
chat, these these chapters are now excuse me, this transcript
is now a literal text of the of the book, the episodes have to
go in a specific order. The you know, there's got to be maybe a
page like, what's that page inside the book that gives you
the copyright info and all those kinds of there's a copyright
page
Adam Curry: what do you call that again? So I think the main
thing is keep this keep posting the stuff on podcasts index dot
social, so that we know about it, so it doesn't just get you
know, because because then what happens is, you know, the Sam
gets mad because no one's implementing this. We have to,
we have to keep making everybody aware of it. I think the events
tag is cool. I clearly know agenda stream and by the way
when you publish if you know that's what I love about curio
caster and I think that's how we bootstrapped a lot of this is,
you know, we were just using every single tag we had on no
agenda, podcasting, 2.0 mo facts, you know, as many as many
feeds as I could get, just keep, I'm still publishing the social
interact tag. So it doesn't always result in apps
implementing it, but if you keep doing it consistently,
eventually it'll show up. And I think it has to come from What
are we drinking?
Dave Jones: This is a Waterloo Cherry Limeade Wait,
Adam Curry: I have a Waterloo Cherry Limeade here myself. Oh,
Broder the chat. I haven't opened it yet. I'm still
drinking my gigawatt Coffee Roasters snap chill.
Dave Jones: It doesn't taste anything like cherries or LA?
No, no. At all. Plus, for the if, at all, at all, at
Adam Curry: least, this is the one Waterloo that actually
tastes like something besides just water. Okay, so anyway,
let's let's keep our eye on that stuff and just keep publishing
and let people know when there's feeds. You know, tell it to so
we can keep letting the app devs know that it's out there because
I think these are some pretty cool tags. I like it a lot.
Dave Jones: Me too. And I would I would recommend if you're
gonna if you when you post something on the on the Get on
the GitHub repo for the namespace also cross posted to
podcast
Adam Curry: because I missed all kinds of stuff on the GitHub all
the time. And also my eyes glaze over. Sometimes it's it's
because it's just not. I'm so happy we have both but we have
been crushing it Cross posting is important. It really is.
Because
Dave Jones: here's what happens. You miss your photo, you don't
check it for a few weeks in the one this one post grows into a
thread, that's like 75 comments. I cannot understand Yeah, no,
it's painful. You can understand it,
Adam Curry: I have two more things I want to talk about
before we get our guests in. The first one is, you know, being
often the frontline support for podcast index, which I love
doing, by the way for as far as possible. I have noticed an
inordinate amount of people who have anchor feeds, where they
are confused that aid won't show on iTunes or in podcast index.
And of course, all I need to do is open up the feed, do a CTRL F
and look for block. I think anchor is adding iTunes block
from the get go with a new feed. These guys are nasty.
Dave Jones: I've suspected that too. And I don't I don't know
how to prove it. That
Adam Curry: well. I can't prove it either. But but a lot of new
people show up and they say hey, I got my feed over here on
anchor and, and it's not showing up in podcast index, and then
I'll see that it has the block. But I'll before I say that I say
Hey, is it showing up on iTunes? No, it's not showing up there
either in that weird, I'm gonna ask like, and then you know,
they have to go back and they have to contact anchor or
podcasts or Spotify for podcasts or support. I think that this is
nefarious, I don't think it's cool what they're doing over
there. It seems like maybe there's some little box that you
have to check. I don't know if anyone knows, like, include this
in iTunes. But
Dave Jones: let's create that I've created an I've got an
anchor account that I use for to test stuff and with the
aggregator. And it didn't use to do that, then there'd be a
recent change. I don't know. I mean, we're
Adam Curry: not really cool if they're creating feeds that by
default will not or won't or should not show in, in iTunes,
whether it's iTunes, accepts it or not, is secondary. But just
to add a block without letting people know, I don't want to
accuse them of anything for sure. But it sure seems like
just the sheer volume of people who show up with new feeds where
a block tag is in there.
Dave Jones: I think it's a great idea. Because we I mean, I don't
ingest their stuff anymore automatically. Anyway. I
encourage that.
Adam Curry: There you go. All right.
Dave Jones: I mean, seriously, I mean, after you've ingested
100,000 feeds that are just crying somebody we did or just
somebody with a with a 15 second episode. And they never post
again. It's like, I'm not sorry, I'm not doing this anymore. If
you care if you actually have a legit podcast that you care
about other people finding. Yeah. And you host on a free on
a free post like anchor. Yeah, you need to you need to do the
extra step of contacting a directory and letting them know
Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, well, people are
starting to realize that free isn't necessarily good that's
for sure with a lot of things. One last thing because I have
two clips for this short ones. I'm just flabbergasted by by the
blatant fraud that podcasters are now putting out there and
blaming, you know, you know, a clip I'm playing right? Yeah.
Well, I have to I have to this is the I think not podcast.
Forget who did Spurlock post this I can't remember it so it's
not safe for work. So crank it up.
Unknown: And if you are on Apple podcasts, I want to tell you
there was an iOS update that is making all podcasters bend over
grab our ankles and take it up the but if you are on Apple
podcasts and you go to our page, please click the three dots in
the top right hand corner, go to settings and just click
automatically download 10 latest episodes just that will fix the
iOS update that has fucked all of the podcasters up again go to
the three dots on the top left hit settings and about a little
further down than halfway down. Click automatically download 10
latest episodes just that will help us out so much.
Adam Curry: I mean, that's outrageous.
Dave Jones: First of all, yikes. I mean, yeah, yes, yikes is
right. And second of all, I mean just begging for downloads like
one one stop at 10 Why don't you subscribe, download 10 episodes
then unsubscribed and do it again. I mean, like just keep
asking for Jack getting jacked up. But I
Adam Curry: mean, it's clearly it's clearly fraudulent. Yeah.
And what really surprised me is to hear not quite as blatant not
to this level because this was actually more instruction than
we used to have to give people how to subscribe to the podcast
itself. You know, that was like Go to the website, look for the
RSS icon right click copy, go to your podcast application page
and subscribe. paste this in. She had a lot more instruction
there to how to do this go down three dots halfway down this
screw with an apple screwed us. Well, you're being fraudulent,
you're no screwing your advertisers. I mean, doesn't the
peep the advertisers not hear this?
Dave Jones: I was recently told about a situation where I was
recently told best situation where there was a podcast that a
hat was having its advertising handled by a third party. So you
have you have the podcast, you have the advertiser who's or the
the advertising agency. And then you have the podcast host. And,
you know, the podcast, the advertising agency signed up for
a service that's supposed to get you up the ranks in Apple
podcast directory. And, you know, they do this through
banner ads, and all these kinds of things. This is nothing new.
But these aren't real. These are these are rewards based
subscriptions that you're getting. And you get so you get
for every new signup, just like she's talking about, you get an
initial batch of downloads that come off our podcast. Yeah. So
the it's a temporary boost and it's fake. But if as long as you
keep signing up, and re upping re upping your buy, you keep
getting this small temporary influx of of downloads number go
up baby number go up. And so then the podcast host was like,
let let the let the podcast podcast podcasts are no hey, you
know, these? You know, yeah, you're getting some downloads.
But these aren't real downloads. I mean, these are these are not
true numbers. And the, the podcaster was like, Well, you
know, that's fine with us. Because this is for like, this
is like a branded podcast for this company. And this, we're
okay with that. Because this lets us report the numbers to
the company. It's, it's fraudulent live. Yeah, it let me
know. I'm like, Okay, so there's this chain that's involved here,
where the agency is getting some numbers for the podcast. Yeah.
And then the podcaster is wanting to show success to
corporate. And so then it's all just this big fraudulent chain
from soup to nuts all the way through in the advertising
agency is the love is the worst is the
Adam Curry: chain of fraud. Well, imagine how surprised I
was flying home from the Netherlands and I downloaded a
whole bunch of podcasts. And I play my favorite hate listen on
the media. And listen to what they're doing. Hey,
Dave Jones: wait, wait, wait, is on the media supplanted pivot is
your favorite?
Adam Curry: Well, did I say favorite?
Dave Jones: He said he said this is your favorite.
Adam Curry: Hey, listen, it's my second favorite pivot. Ken
always has to be taught pivot is the Tucker favorite. There's no
doubt about it. Or listen to this.
Dave Jones: Hey, this is the on the media midweek Podcast. I'm
Mike Lowe injure. We've got a great new interview for you this
week. But first, a quick reminder, if you're an iPhone
user, and you listen to Oh, TM on the Apple podcast app, the
one that comes downloaded on your phone, please take a second
to click on that app, go to our feed. And in the top right
corner. If you see a plus Follow button, click that it will
automatically download new episodes of on the media when
they drop. So you won't have to stream the show when you're out
and about.
Adam Curry: Oh wait. It's for your benefit listeners. So you
won't have to stream when you're out and about. But wait, there's
more. If you
Dave Jones: see a checkmark in the upper right corner, then
you're good to go. And while you're at it, please leave us a
review. We'd love to hear what you think about the show as the
ratings help ATM and your feedback means a lot to us. Yeah
All right. All right on to the podcast.
Adam Curry: You can listen when you're out and about you don't
have to stream it give us downloads it's
Dave Jones: the same exact thing except the up the butt part.
Adam Curry: No, that would have been awesome.
Dave Jones: Hello injury No, you're broke.
Adam Curry: Hey, we're getting screwed up the butt here on NPR.
Top right corner. All of this to say there is an alternative way
to receive value for your podcast at the value for value
model. We've been pioneering it here on podcasting 2.0 for a
while and We've had fantastic partners in the lightning's I'm
gonna say it space who have who have helped build this
throughout the years it started with Sphinx. Then we had ln PE
and of course lb came into the mix and there's been a lot of
shakeups and changes so we're very proud and happy to have
them both here on a Saturday. Please welcome from Alby March
Kaminski and rollin Berek. Berek Berek rollin. How do i pronounce
it? bealach Buick. Hey, man, that's Oh, you know, Buick is
bui CK we all know Buicks here. Yeah.
Dave Jones: That's the giant car that your granddad drives.
Adam Curry: Exactly. Good. Rollin. Good to meet you. You
are playing the role of, of Boomi. Today, Michael boomin. I
guess he he gave up his spot for you.
Unknown: Yeah, I'm one of the developers at LV so I can step
in and answer a few technical questions. I actually wanted to
mention something quickly though. Because at the start,
you said you've got a note runners badge is quite, quite
cool because we also met met him is if at the Bitcoin Film Fest,
earlier this year, he runs note, he runs node runners radio so
you can actually vote you can pay with sets to vote for a song
so I don't think is podcasting. 2.0 But but it's a cool idea.
Maybe Maybe it confidence somehow I'm not
Adam Curry: sure that gives me more Bitcoin credibility, more
Maxi cred, I believe. Yes, I need Maxie credit. And let's say
hello to Moritz Kaminski, Moritz, how you doing brother?
Moritz Kaminski: Yeah, good. Thanks for inviting us again.
And they've secured
Adam Curry: Yeah, it's it's been long overdue. There's been all
kinds of compute misinformation and disinformation no doubt done
by Putin and his team of AI experts. We've just been trying
to figure out what's going on. In general, since a lot of, or
probably every, almost every single podcast app has has lent
has depended on on Alby for its its users wallets. Conversely,
and there really is, conversely, there really are two sides of
the equation podcasters and artists have also been using
Alby for receiving SATs for their boosts booster grams and
streaming SATs. And then through some weird business going on the
United States where it's very unclear what what the rules are
the regulations, you guys I'm sure being out, well, we first
saw, we saw the French pull out. And then we saw, we saw a number
of of different wallet providers leave, and then some changes
happened at Albie. And maybe you can just tell us, just bring us
up to speed on what happened, what you did where we are, and
then hopefully where we're going. Oh, yeah,
Unknown: yeah, sure. I mean, that's why we're here. Right. So
I mean, first of all, they're like our commitment to value for
value, and podcasting has, has like, never changed. So it's
still the same. Since then, when we talked like on on the same
show here at the boardroom, two years ago. But like, at Adobe,
things have changed. So so we experienced quite some user
growth, end of last year. And this means not like, because we
were like a managed wallet provider back then, just means
not only a lot of users, it means also suddenly a lot of use
of funds, right? So quite some responsibilities here on our
side. And we then made sure that actually we at a small team can
handle that. So we introduced in white coats, and we also
introduced limit back then, just to make sure that the users that
we have that they that we can serve them properly. Right. And
Adam Curry: and that limit is like a million SATs and you
encourage people to really use it as a daily, which I think is
perfect to use it as a daily wallet moved the SATs off
keeping under that limit.
Unknown: Yeah. So yeah, that's it. That's it basically. Um, and
then, um, but the again, so the commitment to podcasting tool
has never like like changed. So for example, all the AP API
partners, their users could always sign up to Alby to an AVI
account without the need of an invite code. Um, so that was
basically always a free road there. And on top, everybody who
reaches out to us and ask us for an invite code gets just an
invite code. Right? Right via email, it's just we are more
deliberate on what type of users we want to build for. Because we
saw, like, any type of users signing up suddenly for me,
because our API is made it so so easy to build, right? So people
do not have to interact with Lightning Lightning Network with
the Bitcoin network, they just have to interact with common web
technologies. And that's what they trained for that. So that's
why we, we saw the sudden growth also from other integration
partners. And so that's why we did a step back and but one
thing also has never changed. So when we talk about the lb API, I
think it's important to mention that the back end is was
actually always also open. So you could bring your own note,
plug it into the lb API, for example, without interrupting
all the apps that you already use, so for example, I can
stream sets and send booster grams and podcasts grew directly
from my own node. So that was already possible, like a few
months ago, or if I was a node runner and a podcast with
blueberry or is our rss.com, I can also receive payments
directly to my own node and not in in in the in the wallet
managed by lb understand
Adam Curry: which is which is fantastic. Of course, the your
typical podcaster even will not go to the lengths of setting up
their own node initially. But I know you understand that, but
the the obviously the capability is there, and it's great.
Unknown: And, um, yeah, so now it's instead also what we
continue now to promote. So we will, we have some some very
cool things in the works. And that's actually also where
Roland is, is basically the lead the lead developer. So that's
super cool that he can join us here. But the what regarding the
LV API, it really like it's the idea is that it just keeps
working no matter what funding pack and you have there happens
to be an account, you have your own node. And it's up to the
user what they basically want to plug in. So the the money does
not go necessarily through our hands. And with the, with the
upcoming developments, actually, and not even we make it even
easier. Like it's really another step. Another level for for
people to use an Adobe account in, in in a self custodial way
actually understood.
Adam Curry: Maybe before we get into all the new things you're
doing, just understand the basic limitations. It sounds like
you're you you really want to get out of the Manage wallet bid
that managed funds business is that do I see that correctly?
Unknown: Yes, that's our intention. Because we also, I
personally, for example, learned. So financial
regulations will get stricter over time. But at the same time,
we are working on an on a payment network, which is the
Lightning Network, which has incredible like capabilities
compared to the current payment system. And if we would go down
like the road of getting financial, financially fully
regulated and adhering to these laws with transaction
monitoring, transaction recording. I'm not so sure
actually, if we could fully leverage this innovation Patan
potential that's behind the Lightning Network as an as an
instant, like payment network across across the globe. So
that's based, that's, for example, one reason why we say
okay, let's try it out this way right now with because that does
not limit us in any like, technology technological way,
basically. So,
Adam Curry: so just understanding albies business
then you want to be a front end, you can use any funding source,
which makes a lot of sense. How, if you don't mind me asking what
what will the business or what is the business model of Alby if
you're providing the At free, basically now, will you be
charging for that down the road? Or how Where do you where do you
want to insert yourself? Because you're basically offering
lightning services through a simple API or through a front
end web interface and bring your own funding source? Where do you
make money.
Unknown: So that's really what we want, where we want to
position us as we want to just remove the away the complexity
and and especially for apps and developers and be closer to to
apps basically, and bring bring digital payments there. And
that's why we plan also to monetize our services through a
premium plan, basically, for people who want more
convenience, then, for example, installing their node at home,
there will be a pro plan where we charge on a monthly basis,
the price is not yet set there. Just for the users who are not
let's say, technical, capable or sound enough to spin up their
own note at home.
Dave Jones: Is there a drop dead date? When when the lb API that
apps like Casta Matic and Banpo adverse? Is there a day that's
coming when they when those wallets that they are hosting
the hosting for their listeners are going to be not available in
more and they have to move funds off?
Unknown: No, there's no droplet. So we be we might not
necessarily onboard users to these like, let's say arm
existing Albia accounts and wallets anymore. But the current
users can keep using them. So there will be there is there is
no date and also forthcoming. There is no no bigger issue that
we expect. It's just now what we are currently working on, we
just want to even lower the the bars even more for other people
to become like a self sovereign, become self sovereign and take
back control over their own payments with their own wallets
and notes. That's the idea. And that's now also we're rollin
comes in, for example. And the premium that these these Pro
Plan comes in, where people just like basically get more
convenience. When they when they run these, these these these
wallets themselves, do you think
Adam Curry: that there will ever be because So our main
limitation when so I'm just putting podcasters on one side
for a second. Just leave those out of the conversation purely
about the because most app developers have really not
looked into the Lightning Network. You know, obviously,
the lb API made it fantastic. Just for people just up just
code that and you're good to go. Our biggest issue is the key
send system because you really need a full time node, you need
something that's online all the time in order to receive that,
which kind of precludes us from really using any other system.
Unless I guess Bolt 12 comes along. I'm not even sure if if
if that I mean, I don't even know how self sovereign that
will be. But I've seen you know Chad F for example, has been
working trying to figure out using the using Zeus and their
Olympus LSP try and connect the Albea. The lb API to that which
I think he's had some success with. But the real issue is the
podcasting. 2.0 with value for value streaming is is really an
onboarding. But an onboarding for people who don't know
nothing. I mean, we I think all the people who understand
Bitcoin and lightning are already there. They're probably
already using something they probably have their own wallets,
you know, they may be using fountain in fact, most people
seem to be using fountain. So we want to make sure that it's easy
for new users to come in, you know, use podcast guru or pod
verse or just something that maybe they're already using, and
just connect a wallet to it, taking them down the path of, of
setting up their own node is just not going to scale. It just
won't happen. So we're looking for different ways to make that
happen. And I think that it's interesting to see what true
fans is doing. As I understand it, Sam that Sam Sethi has set
up a Super Hub with you guys and he'll be able to provide virtual
wallets. Can you explain kind of how that works if it were on a
per app bases
Unknown: are that's that's, I better leave that to Sam. I
think that's that's a great experiment what he's doing
there. And I don't know like how he's going right now. So we
helped him onboard to the to this new wallet basically. And
he wants to use that as a back end and onboard people on
virtual wallets. Okay, so he's Oh, I
Dave Jones: think he's
Adam Curry: doing the virtual wallet part. He's He's taken
care of that himself internally, and it's just connecting to a
big node that you're running for him.
Unknown: And we're not running the node for him. He's running
the node himself. Right. So that's the idea of, of self
custody. But actually, so I think for all these users who
are afraid of running their own note, I think the new wallet
that we're going to bring out is really something for them.
Right? So it's not, it's not the, you need to assemble
hardware, first, buy hardware, assemble it, and then set it up
at home, exited access it through a browser also, and then
figure it around there. No, it's really it's it's one click
deployment in the cloud, for the user. And we guide the users
through this. Okay,
Adam Curry: okay. But it has a funding requirement, if I am, am
I correct?
Unknown: Yes, you but the funding requirement is solvable,
right? So there are LSPs involved, where you can with
like, one, two clicks, get a channel with a receiving
capacity, and as a podcaster, then you're good to go, right?
You do not even need to fund this wallet as a podcast,
because you will then receive something from from the
listeners.
Adam Curry: And that okay, so that happens automatically upon
first receive, then inbound channel opens up with liquidity.
Unknown: And it does not happen automatically. But it happens,
like on purpose the, we want to give users the control of okay,
how much do they actually expect, and also put them in
the, into the spot of, of making the decision? And also an
economic decision of requesting inbound capacity from from an
LSP.
Adam Curry: Right. So just so you understand, and I, I totally
understand where you're going, I understand the vision, I think
it's the right thing to do from your, from your perspective,
it's totally not doable from the certainly not from the
listeners, certainly not from musicians. The knowledge level
is so low is so low, they really, they're barely
understanding Satoshis over Bitcoin. So while I think it's a
great solution, and they can be walked through it, and they can
be made to understand it's not it doesn't make onboarding very
fast in the podcasting 2.0 user area, because people are just,
you know, they're just not going to do it. I mean, it's they,
they, it's just a very high barrier.
Unknown: I'm, I'm not too much worried about that. So I
definitely get your point and I think this is something that we
need to work on like step by step, automating these these
flows on and abstracting away things like opening a channel
for example, and that will happen and we also know how we
can do that but this like one click sign up, and I have my
wallet. Actually, we have also already ideas there and there
are still based on on on a self custodial signup, sorry self
custodial sign up. So it will be possible where we think where we
can leverage our existing like tax tech stack to give users a
chance. I don't know for like under 1000 sets for example a
budget please take this budget go to pot worse and and and
stream that. And the payment goes directly from my own notes.
So I will be able to onboard users that are not familiar with
lightning and give them the chance to make their first
lightning payment without actually running their node. So
there are plans for that. But we will see that later this year
actually also learned if you want to say something here.
That's that's one of his ideas. Like like the mastermind behind
it. behind this, this this new wallet. All right, roll on. Come
Adam Curry: on in brother.
Roland Bewick: Hello. Yeah. Just before that. You had a question
about these apps that use their LV API right now, will they
eventually stop working. And that's not the case. So we
continue to build upon and support the RBA API. And it's
just the funding source that will change just like you said.
And so rather than it being managed by the shed lb service,
things will decentralize. So a lot of our users will be running
their own nodes, but they will still be connected to the LV
API. And all the functionality will exist as before. But as you
say, so not everyone is ready to invest some money in advance
right to open now and channels. Or even, even if they have the
money, maybe they don't, they aren't ready to invest the time
and energy to learn about lightning and Bitcoin. So we're
thinking of this feature where everyone who runs the lb, new lb
hub, product, which you run your own node, you have your own
case, you can onboard your friends and family, they
basically just download an app, and with one click or scanning
one QR code, they're ready to go with lightning wallet. They
don't have to understand anything, they can make
podcasting payments, they could even receive podcasting payments
and start their own podcasts in the future as well. So we think
if we can build the circular, circular economy, we can onboard
your friends and family and from there, create more and more
nodes and decentralize the network. Things will be in a
much better position. So we're pretty excited. So go ahead. But
Adam Curry: right now, the biggest hurdle we have is you
can no longer create a current noncustodial Albea wallet in the
US, which of course hampers our onboarding. So I'm looking for
and I and I hear what you're saying. So there will be kind of
like a one click functionality in the future, I don't know
about 100,000 SATs, I think you can get most people to put $5 in
probably five euros. So you're talking more about, you know,
25,000 SATs, maybe 20,000 SATs, I don't know if that's enough to
deploy a node and open up a channel with liquidity. But
that's probably what most people will do just to start off as
their new being onboarded. So we kind of have this, this bridge,
we want a gap between where we are now which is here in the US,
you can't fire up a wallet anymore as my understanding to
no end of the year when you have deployable product, which will
be very similar or this idea. And this idea has been around
ever since we started this the idea of Uncle Tom's node, which
is kind of a racist thing. But Uncle Tom's node, where you
share a node with multiple people, and you can have
multiple wallets on it. How do we bridge that gap?
Unknown: So regarding the lb accounts in the US, everybody
that reaches out to us, like sends an email hello@gharavi.com
I will reply with an invite code in. So that's no issue every
party also people in the US can create an N lb account today.
It's we just have managed yet to remove this invite only feature
yet unfortunately, the only requirement that we have is that
we then help them to get on on this new self custodial app. And
again, it's just like, we spin it up for you in the cloud, we
even help you to open up your first channel. That's not much
required. Currently, it's around 50,000 sets, and then you're
able to receive plenty of plenty of sets
Adam Curry: purely from the listener standpoint. So the
receiving side I'm less worried about, I'm really you know, I'm
a podcast listener, my I'm listening to a podcast, my
podcaster says, Hey, you can support us through value for
value. This is where someone's going to make a huge step,
because they're going to open up something called a wallet. And
obviously they'd like to do that inside of the app they're using.
So that's where you want kind of like an automatic wallet open.
It's okay if we say hey, you got to go to get Alby you got to
open a wall. I mean, there's a whole bunch of hurdles,
including KYC for for funding, etc. So how many more steps can
we eliminate from setting up you know, in the new system it I
mean, can I just be completely transparent to this user? That
all right, I put in $10.40 or 50,000 SATs and that for that
you user, it'll just be $10. I'm not even thinking in SATs yet.
How? How many steps can we eliminate to make that as smooth
as possible for listeners who just want to support a podcast,
they're not they don't understand lightning, they may
have an interest in it, but they just want to support the
podcast.
Unknown: I think that's that's definitely a hard nut to crack.
And that's also where we quickly arrive at the current limits of
the Lightning Network. If you want to use it in a self
custodial way, if you want to use it in a custodial way, in a
properly regulated way, then yeah, that's basically like,
like using another bank account where you have to sign up, scan
your ID or upload a photo and such and and do it that way. But
I also think this, this this, this, this budget feature that
Holand talked about, is not that far out. So we are maybe talking
about like a few months. So that's that's definitely very,
very high on our priority list. Because we see that, yeah,
running your own node, even like hearing things like channel also
might be for some people just a little bit too much in the
beginning. It's
Adam Curry: way too much for most people. And I'm just trying
to find the middle ground. So I understand it's going to take a
few months. And I don't want to hold anyone to schedule because
it might take you another year doesn't matter. I mean, that's
that's your development timeline. What I'm just trying
to get to is can it be simple enough that a podcast app can
access an API or spin up a wallet, or a node through the
app through an app to the Alby API, require a budget to be
entered. So at the moment, the listener has to, you know,
onboard, somehow, that piece has been solved kind of in some
ways, but onboard, and then everything else happens in the
background, it just a wallet is created, the user doesn't know
that a channel is open, or they have their own node, then they
may get some credential, spit back, don't lose these this is
your these are your keys. If you lose this, you lose your money.
How seamless can we make that process? For the podcast apps?
Unknown: Yeah, I think like true friends now. Does a lot. Does a
lot on that part, actually. Right. Then we saw this
experiment. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see how this experiment turns
out. Yeah, I think in general, so it's, it's definitely doable.
In in, let's say, more like custodial way where you share
your, your wallet with others people on on one big note. And
you outsource things like like channel management to, to a
central party. And, like in the traditional banking way, so
that's, that's totally doable. But even there, then you will
not necessarily enter the space where you can onboard users
easily on API wallet also. Because then, in this very
moment, do as an app become a money service business, right?
So and then it's on you to, to do the KYC of the user. So you
probably need to then work together with a regulated
entity, or work together with an and wallet service, like, like,
I'll be where users particularly need to sign up for this wallet
service themselves and then authorize to connect the wallet
back to the app. So then, there is a different like, user
relationship, right? So because then it's the liability of lb,
or another wallet provider, basically, to take care of, of
the the regulatory side of things and not a not the app.
And I think that's definitely something that is that app
developers may or may not underestimate the the problems
that might have challenges come that come up there when they,
um, just spin up wallets on their site on behalf of users
and take deposits. For example.
Adam Curry: Do you have any insight into because we're
talking about regulations that aren't really there yet? Do you
have any insight or do you just have a feeling of where this is
going particularly as it pertains to the United States?
Unknown: Now, I think that's, at least for the United States,
it's quite clear. I mean, if if if users do not interact With
the payment networks themselves, but through third party, and
that's the case, if they don't have their own keys, then you
are a money service business, and you need to be regulated by
FinCEN. And you need money transmitter licenses by, by most
of the states in the US and in addition.
Adam Curry: Dave
Dave Jones: Yeah, it seems to me like the the reason I've thought
this for a while that the real issue on the regulatory side
with all of this stuff is that the large, the large Bitcoin
entities that, that do have the money transmitter licenses and
do have the correct regulatory structure like Cash App strike
and, and those kinds of organizations. They're not
there, they're not providing the, they're not providing the
they have they have lightning support, but they're not
providing the lightning onboarding experience. They're
not onboarding into lightning, they're onboarding into
themselves. And then providing lightning as just a side benefit
only at the bare minimum of bolt 11. And, you know, what, that,
you know, what, just just to get stuff across. And it seems to me
like there's an entire sort of second layer of org of group of
companies like Albea, that are trying to do more in trying to
really be the onboarding the on ramp into lightning itself. And
they're not in in you guys are not getting the support of the
larger bit, you know, Bitcoin regulated back end. Because if
you if you if you had, it's a lot to ask a group like lb, to
go to go out and get all the regular, oh, no, this is
impossible stuff. It's not possible. But if you know,
these, it just seems like some bigger group could help but
they're just not doing it.
Unknown: Yeah, but that's also one reason why we do now this
step. And yes, we will like increase the bar a little bit to
run a new lb wallet. But we are quite sure that we can lower it.
Same as we lowered the bar, like two years ago, when we published
LV API.
Dave Jones: Your What's your I think what we're seeing now in
the just as in Bitcoin as a whole, just speaking outside of
lightning itself, is with ETFs. And with, there's a weird
dynamic going on right now, where you have two things
happening at the same time, you have a greater awareness and
acceptance of Bitcoin as a financial instrument, across the
board. And then you also have credit, just selective cracking
down trying to send a vague message to the market, that you
better play by the rules. And so there's those two things. That
leads me to believe that the future of of this sort of thing
is I don't know, I guess I see a downside to just making the
wallet completely transparent. So let's go let me let me say
like this, I'm trying to figure out the best way to describe
this if, if you think about a lightning wallet, in terms of,
okay, like Venmo, or PayPal wallets. You know, we all we're
all aware that those are pretty easy to onboard, you just spin
up an account. But if you really want to do anything of any
importance with them, if you want to, if you want to actually
send any decent amount of money at all, you actually do have to
KYC yourself and all of those apps. It is it's not just a It's
not just a frictionless easy experience. There is KYC and
regulatory stuff that has to happen on all of those things.
And so it seems to me that while we may not like it, from the
from the podcasting and even the Noster, zapping side of things
while we may not like this, it it may just be a fact of life
that if people are going to have a wallet, they need to be aware
of the wallet as a separate entity outside of just being
some feature of an app. I mean it man it sure is frictionless
to go and tap a link in in cast ematic kick over to Albea spin
up been No, get a wallet and put five bucks in there into in the
five clicks. That's, that's like a dream scenario. Yeah, that's,
that's,
Adam Curry: that's what I'm looking for whether it's your
own road or not, that doesn't matter, I mean that that's
perfect. I'm just looking for that frictionless part.
Dave Jones: But see, then the doubt, then the downside becomes
of that becomes that, like, you know, let's imagine that PayPal
allowed that to happen. Let's imagine that PayPal will allow
people to just, like just spin up transparent wallets that they
kind of barely even know they have, on their own back end,
what you would end up with is just a whole bunch of sort of
just ethereal wallets with funds in them, that end up in limbo a
lot of times, and people are just not even aware of how to
connect with it. So
Unknown: that's actually what we were we are solving with this
new wallet, because that's the idea is that it serves as your
your hub. So you maybe need to do the extra step. But it's just
one time in the beginning to make sure you have enough
spending balance receiving capacity. But afterwards, you
can fully you have this definitely this plug and play
experience of Yes, bring your your Adobe account to a pot
worse to a rss.com. And that's really just one click
authorization. And then you can receive payments, you can send
payments, you can see your balance, you can even see your
transaction lists. So once you've done just the initial
step, afterwards, like you can, like fully plug and play
throughout the whole Bitcoin app ecosystem totally
Adam Curry: understood. What is can you just what will the steps
be? Do you have a funding on ramp as well? Or do you do point
people to a certain place to get to transfer Fiat into Satoshis?
What is what are those steps? Or do you have nuts? Okay, if you
have not, I'm just trying to understand how we can streamline
it.
Unknown: But ya know, it's basically like every other
account that you create, you set your password and then you if
you have already Bitcoin, then you can just directly open my
channel, we recommend your channel partners, no need for
searching some. So and then you're good to go already. Or if
you don't have Bitcoin, then define your password. You can
directly in the new wallet, you can top it up with a credit
card. And then with these funds, open your first channel. Okay,
so there is an in app credit card top up mechanism.
Adam Curry: Okay, that's good.
Unknown: And then theoretically, sorry, theoretically, we could
even like if, once we've tested this properly, and a lot of
confidence in that we could even say okay, why not just top it up
with a credit card? And automatically open my channel?
Yeah. So yes. That's all possible. And that's something
we're looking into that I
Dave Jones: think, yeah, go head to head. Yeah, yeah, I was just
gonna say because I think that really is I don't I think the
issue is less with with the con with the concept of having a
wallet because I think everybody's comfortable with
that they Okay, okay, now I have an lb wallet. And I can do lots
of things with this lb wallet. I can cook it, hook it to a
podcast app, I can do you know, get over here to Indy hub or
whatever. I think that's not the issue. I think everybody's
comfortable with that. It's the channel issue. Because that's
the one thing that makes lightning different from these
other sources like PayPal or Venmo, or, or something like
that is that you have this extra thing called a channel that is
just completely inscrutable to normal human beings are what is
I don't even understand what this is. So like, if the channel
process is even if there's a minimum of you know, 30 bucks to
open a wallet. It's as long as the channel process just happens
by itself. Yes, that to me, that is really the hurdle.
Adam Curry: And even just knowing there's a chat, I love
the business model. I understand that now. You get your Albea
your your Alby is your own node, your sovereign, you have your
keys, you lose that you're screwed, but you can and what
albies business model will be doing is you will be connecting
to every other app necessary in the entire lightning ecosystem.
Anything you want. You'll you'll make sure you can make the
connection So whether you want to connect it to your your
noster app to your podcast app to your McDonald's app, whatever
it is, you guys will provide that. And then you'll have
different service levels and different capabilities. And
that's where you come in with your premium. I totally get it.
So the questions are, how seamless can we, as Dave said,
can you just make the top it up, and then I send a payment, so I
have what you call the budget. So minimum top up, if it could
be 10 bucks or 10 euros, that'd be fantastic. I don't know if
that's enough, it has to be more than it is what it is. And that
automatically opens the channel for my first payment, or with my
first payment, the channel opens up, instead of, hey, I'm funding
a channel, what am I really doing? You know what I mean? If
we can obfuscate those pieces, unless you have the, unless
you're an advanced user, and you need to know it, I think that
would be great for us. And it'd be great for you to probably,
Unknown: definitely so. And there's also another idea, for
example, since we want to have a budget to automatically create a
channel for for the user. The downside here is a little bit
that we would do like an upfront commitment, because we wouldn't
need to pay for this channel. Right. And, and then if if the
user churns quickly, from the wallet away again, then we
cannot recover the costs basically. So we need to still
think a little bit how we can make that in a way that we do
not take too much risk here as a as a as a small startup. But so
there are really various ways, or levers that we can use,
actually, to bring the barriers down even even further. Here's
Adam Curry: an idea. Because I still feel like in chat F says
we're focused too much on the channel. But the channel thing
is the thing that's the problem, people don't understand this.
They understand Venmo they don't even I mean, even the currently
the whole send me an invoice so it can pay your invoices already
foreign to people is very complicated to people who are
used to Venmo and PayPal. What if podcasts index, for podcast
wallets only functioned as the liquidity provider. So and not
for podcasters. But for podcast wallets for people who are
purely thinking of sending, sending. Yeah, listeners, can we
because we have a pretty good node, you know, we could even
set up a separate node with a fat pipe, we've got liquidity.
We've got good connections. Is there a way that we could bridge
this for a while so that because we don't need to make profit you
guys do? Can we bridge this and we provide the liquidity? We
provide a 5050 channel, for example, when someone spins up a
wallet or is that too complicated?
Unknown: So you this would mean if someone would sign up through
podres, podcast, guru or custom Matic, for example. We know
somehow this person is interested in in listening to
podcasts and and making value for value payments. And then in
this moment, for example, we could request a channel from you
to give this user some initial balance basically on that,
actually, yeah, I think it's, we should think about that actually
is like this idea. And
Dave Jones: we open it we open the channel and then essentially
push push to the other side. Yeah, I mean, that I think, I
mean, yeah, definitely made me mad. I've talked about doing
that. I mean, it's it's a, it's a thing that are noticed
sitting, you know, sitting there, it is well connected and
well funded. So I mean, I think it makes sense to help to help
people out with this on the podcasting side, at least until,
you know, until I think there can be like I said, I'm not I'm
not too concerned about the minimum balances and that kind
of thing. Those all I think those are all not a big deal.
It's really, it really is this channel problem. That's, that's
the thing that just you start talking about channels and
people just they just don't understand what you're talking
about.
Unknown: Yeah, but like, here's one question that I have. So I
mean, that's always a little bit of a strategic decision that we
because there are ways to automate these things like like
channel management with some like lightning so as providers,
but we, so far we said okay, we just want to make sure people's
wallet work out and they are not crept into a text, like
lightning service provider, where then in times of high,
high on chain fees, they have to constantly open new channels,
and then end up with five channels, but might even need to
open up a six channel, because they still cannot receive funds
higher than 250,000 sets, for example, so they don't have this
control. And I wonder, okay, do they? Should we give them the
control? Or should we really automated fully for them? Yeah,
Adam Curry: I mean, that's interest, I feel that it feels
like podcasting can be a great onboarding mechanism to what all
of Lb provides. So, as as lightning becomes more
integrated into normal life. There'll be more and more and I
think that's your vision, more and more reasons to have your
own know that you can connect to all these different services and
apps that are out there. But to bring them in, you're going to
need something really, really simple. And I mean, Dave, and I
have also considered is where to bridge something, just because
we don't want to lose the momentum, we're losing
incredible momentum now, just by not making the wallet process
easy for listeners is, I mean, in essence, you know, we would
be happy if we could just provide a node with liquidity.
And for a certain period, you know, even just act as a as a as
a custodial service, just to keep the momentum going, and
then hopefully switch people over to their own notes as they
go along. Because we can't do that forever. But we certainly
feel like we can assume some of that risk in podcasting only.
Which is very different from me, because I understand what was
happening with you guys. Everyone's just Oh, get a free
wallet here. And then everybody in the grandmas just signing up.
But if we're just only providing this for, for the podcast apps,
that may be another avenue to go. But I don't know if you
could provide like a white label service for for podcasting. That
would only be for podcast apps. Does that make sense?
Unknown: Yeah, go ahead.
Sorry, if I can jump in here. I think this Uncle Tom, so we call
it uncle Jim's idea perfectly fits here. And it should be able
to connect. So if you run an LP hub, you can actually connect to
an external lightning node. So you should be able to connect.
So run boot up and your lb hub, connect to your existing node,
and you'll be able to set up these connections for people who
connect with different podcasting apps. Regulatory
wise, I don't know. But technically, I think it should
be possible. And it's a really exciting idea to consider. So
Mark, sorry, go ahead.
Dave Jones: Rollin. Can you talk about that? Because I'm not sure
what you the lb hub? Yeah, the lb hub? Can you just describe
what that is?
Unknown: Yeah, so it's, um, it's, it's not a it's not a
typical Wallet. So if you if you think of a typical wallet, right
that you start on your phone, and you send and receive
payments. It's it's not that it's something completely
different. It's completely revolutionary, is basically what
you get with the lb account, right. But now you are fully
self sovereign. So you have one wallet, and you can connect to
all your different apps, you'll have one balance, you don't need
to have multiple balances and different apps. And you can have
permission control. For every single app, you can choose how
much you want to spend, how much control the app has over your
wallet, basically, similar to how it works with the LV API.
And the really cool thing is just like they'll be extension,
you can choose a funding source for lb hub. So by default, we,
we embed a node directly into the lb hub. And so you can
launch it in the cloud with a few clicks get started, ready to
go. And that's great. But you can also connect to an external
mining node as well, but get the existing functionality. Does
this kind of as your question, yeah, yeah.
Dave Jones: So you're saying that, that the lb hub is lb hub
is just a sort of a connector either to your own node or a
node that's running that Albea spins up for you. So you can you
can connect it either way on the back end, sort of like It's sort
of like green, like a green light type node service.
Unknown: Yeah, if lanes, so it's slightly different to green
light, which will launch on the fly, right? It will normally
it's off. But if it detects an incoming payment, it will be
booted up, to receive the payment, and then all shut down
again to save resources. But ours is a bit different. We, we
believe that we want lightning fast payments, we want an always
online service. We want to be able to receive keys in payments
at any time for podcasting. So this is our focus in This Boy's
online wallet service that powers all of your apps, embeds
lightning into your daily life. It just feels innocent, right?
Seamless attaching lightning payments, to user interactions,
all those amazing things that we can do in the future.
Dave Jones: So that node is that and then node is always running
then.
Unknown: Yes, that's that's the case. And this comes with costs,
but it's part of our premium l lb Pro Plan, you would, you
would basically get this for free. But you can also post lb
have locally, you can you can run it on your own virtual
machine or server, if you have one, you can run it as a desktop
app, if you have a computer that's always online, boys,
boys, you know, turned on. Or you can even run it on Raspberry
Pi. So we're trying to do it as give as many options to users to
pick what best works for them. And they can always migrator
that anytime. If they think now I bought some hardware, I can
move my nose or the opposite. If they want an easier, more
convenient option, they can run it in the cloud.
Adam Curry: But you bet can you run virtual wallets on that
similar to like ln bit?
Unknown: Currently, no. But this is the next feature we're we're
planning to look at. Because, as we talked about, is
fundamentally two different types of users, right? One who
understands Bitcoin, they can open channels, and they can
manage this. Whereas another user, as you said, they don't
even they barely know the difference between sets and
Bitcoin, right? And they were you lightning is very difficult,
right? You can completely hide the Lightning Network and
channels, everything from these users. And that's why we think
we need this. This other idea where you know that Uncle Tom
Uncle Jim idea, I think fits very well in this in this case.
And because we can launch with these LV hubs all over the
world, we still have a much more decentralized system than
having, you know, one wallet of Satoshi one, one blink sort of
thing where people are worried about regulation, and, and all
these these sorts of things. So we think we're in a much better
position going forward.
Adam Curry: I'm just not, I'm not understanding the hub
entirely, because you what I understand under an Uncle Jim or
it's much funnier in America to say Uncle Tom for all bunch of
racist reasons. When we say Uncle Tom hub, that means we're
node, that means that there's a node, and it has channels that
has liquidity. And someone can connect to that and have their
own accounting of SATs that they are using and they put in and or
alternatively receive, are we talking about the same thing
with the lb hub, because it sounds like it isn't quite the
same.
Unknown: It's quite similar. You can think, say you had five
different podcasting apps and you would connect them to your
lb heartbreak. And you can give different permissions to each
app, maybe one app can send 100,000 sets per month and the
different one continue to send 10,000 sets per month. But you
can actually also create another app connection, which is
actually not for an app, but for a new user, or your friend or
your family member. And they have this connection, which then
they can use again to connect all these apps. This This
connection is powered by your node and your channels,
everything's that's managed by you. It's your responsibility to
make sure that your friends and family have a good experience.
Adam Curry: But what do they have? Do they have their own
accounting their own their own valid accounting, their own
balance? Or is it just whatever's on the node?
Unknown: They will have their own accounting on transaction
lists on balance everything well, they usually your
Dave Jones: your sort of take like so the person let's say I
spin up, I create an lb hub and I find I'm paying for the lb
hub. Then I can connect with a few friends to my lb hub and And
they each get their own their own wallet, essentially, their
own their own balance their own wallet, and they can connect it
to their apps as they see fit. And it's sort of like, I'm I'm
the host, I'm taking the responsibility for their, for
their for what they do. And is that responsibility? Because
it's still because because it's still non custodial. No, it's
Sorry. Yeah. Non custodial for Alby? It's custodial for me.
Yes. Yes.
Unknown: Okay, so yeah, anyone, anyone who connects your note?
They, they, they have to have a certain level of trust, right?
Because it's your money. They have to trust that they can
actually use it. It's, if they haven't balanced, they should be
able to spend it. So it's your responsibility to provide that
service. But without the help, we're trying to make that as
easy and straightforward as possible. Okay.
Adam Curry: Well, that sounds like something we could do.
Yeah,
Dave Jones: yeah. This sounds that sounds interesting. I mean,
I definitely want to give it a shot. I want to play with it.
Yeah,
Adam Curry: I mean, my brain hurts. Yeah, makes my brain
hurt. I mean, it's, we're just trying to, to provide a bridge
and provide a way to make it easy for someone who has pod
verse to just say, get a wallet, click this button, you've
created a wallet, now you need to fund it. And we're okay with
providing that for for an interim period. Because I
certainly like the idea of where you're going, where everyone
gets their own node. And but I just think that's going to take
a while. LSPs are new, everything's new channel opens,
cost on chain costs. There's a lot of stuff going on. But
David, I've talked to said no, you know, we can probably
provide this as a bridge for a while. So that's what we're
really looking to provide. And if that's something lb hub can
do, then then we'd love to see if we can try that out.
Unknown: Cool. I think like, we are definitely working on the
same thing, right? So we just need to make sure that our bases
at Alveus is right, it's fine. So that's why we now need to
invest a lot in like technical development, and then can really
see how we can lower the bar step by step and make sure
people have a great great onboarding experience there. And
that I think that's that will be a killer feature that Olin
mentioned.
Dave Jones: Is that is that a live product? I'll be hub right
now, or is that something that is still in development?
Unknown: Um, so Sam is using it. Oscar, from fontainhas using it.
James I onboarded. James and truly Costello reasonably that
means we are slowly rolling it out, step by step. And get every
every week new users on board. So everybody's happy to, to sign
up and and try it out. Now. It's just not yet like publicly
launched and no big boss made around that.
Adam Curry: Excellent. So Dave, sounds like you need to be
onboarded. Brother. Yeah,
Dave Jones: onboard me, bro.
Adam Curry: You need an onboarding. Just one more thing,
just to clarify. If us users have a code that they have
received, then they can or cannot open the kit. There's no
possibility for us users to receive an Albu wallet as we
used to know it anymore, correct?
Unknown: That's correct. But they can create an account with
an invite code and we help them to get on our behalf.
Adam Curry: Right, which, which means they they they have their
own node. Exactly. Yes. Okay. That's it. So, okay. All right.
I mean, I think we've gotten somewhere.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, that's Yeah, I think so. I think we
have the Yeah, I think we just need to be on boarded to lb. Hub
and just start to play it because this is what this is.
What I wanted to do with the breeze SDK is is get on boarded
onto onto the breeze SDK and see if we could try to sandbox a
solution to show the app developers what to do. And then,
but then Roy said that it was just debris SDK was just not a
good fit because of the channel, the channel, the ROI, so that
that just didn't work out. So lb hub sounds like something that
did I need to do to onboard into and try to figure out, because
I'm looking to do the legwork to figure out how it works so that
I can then explain how that to explain to app developers what
they need to do. That's really my that must really my point of
view is to try to be as educational.
Unknown: As sounds awesome, let's do that.
Dave Jones: Okay, yep.
Adam Curry: So somehow we can hopefully create a solution,
that it's interesting that Oscar is doing that, too. I like that.
We can find a solution that will maybe allow podcast index to
provide wallets for a while to app developers. Dave? Is that
what I'm hearing you say if we can figure out the hub thing?
Dave Jones: Yeah, maybe? I mean, it I think, I think really, it's
just an exploratory thing on our part. I mean, we can definitely
host some wallets. I mean, we did it with their Ellen, you do
lol? Hey, yeah. For two years, we could definitely host some
wallets. But then really, if we can just like that would be the
sort of the learning experience to then figure out how to teach
other people how to run sort of community. No hopes? Oh, yeah,
definitely. And, and let us get a feel for what the you know,
what the investment looks like, and that sort of thing. Yeah, I
think it's just a matter. I think this is just where we're
going to end up. I mean, we're going to end up in, in a
situation where you're going to have people with, you're gonna
have people with wallets, full wallets, that they just have to,
you know, learn how to understand themselves. But then
you also are going to have those people potentially running, you
know, some of those people, some small percentage of those people
are running some hubs for other people that they know. And who
knows how that works? I mean, I don't know, I think this is all
a learning curve. Yeah.
Adam Curry: I mean, I can totally see it for on the
incoming side, I can see like the Costello's who are
onboarding artists. And I can see them running an lb hub for
their artists, I can totally see that. Yeah, make that makes a
lot because you know, they'll have 1050 100. I mean, I don't
know how many artists they'll have. That I think is fantastic.
It's really, it's really just how do we keep the how do we
keep the other apps interesting, in the value for value space?
Because they, they all do it? It just now they can't onboard new
people. And that's just a shame. Because you're just losing
momentum there. And I think we don't want only one app to be
seen as the only value for value app.
Dave Jones: Yeah. So yeah, I think yeah, I think we, I think
we go down this road and see and see if it'll work. Okay, because
yeah, like you I mean, there's, there's multiple there's
multiple apps. I mean, if it has to be everything, all this stuff
has to be doable by everybody. If it's not doable by everybody,
then it's just not a real solution to a problem right.
Adam Curry: Okay, well, why don't we break for a song? Yes,
I think we all need that. Speaking of value, there's a guy
out there I don't know if it's a guy or a band Richard greaser
which I found great name if he had good name degreaser Richard
greaser and has a whole album out and the whole album is about
the McDonald's value meal and and very nostalgic look at it
and where did it go? And how come how come everything's so
expensive? So I figured I'd give that one a world this is I
remember the days Richard grease Rod 2.0
Unknown: I remember the day
morning a simple treasure in a fast food. McDonald's dollar
menu oh how you mine. A cheeseburger fries and a small
Sundew joins
us for that.
shader in a syllabaries may not be suitable. We will go over
those Global's notches knew how it feels now to practice and not
feel stressed at a simple that's caused me to fail
oh
no
How can I move on from Sony so you were a beacon when the end
was me now unless searching for Jason forgot the stories you
days your
peace of mind
fall
Adam Curry: now I realize it is entirely possible that was
completely created by AI I'm not sure
Dave Jones: think it's more than likely I
Adam Curry: know the odd I mean everything is auto tune these
days but I don't I'm not sure I've heard a lot of AI music
that never that never has this has better structure than most
for sure. So I'm not sure.
Dave Jones: I don't know. History
Adam Curry: pretty soon we'll just have aI music being played
by AI disc jockeys and we'll all retire. Oh, yeah, just keep the
sentence flowing baby. Just keep it flowing.
Dave Jones: At that point is just over.
Adam Curry: Ever everyone says his AI in the in the boardroom.
But I don't know. How do we know?
Dave Jones: What do we want to do? We want to go down. Do we
want to talk about Elon address real quick? Since we have Yeah.
Adam Curry: Yeah, we have the boys on Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Roland, are you up for a little discussion about
Elon? Lightning address issues? Sure.
Adam Curry: All right. He's excited, Dave. He's really
raring to go. He's in the saddle.
Dave Jones: You're Fired up? I can tell you're excited. So, so
here's the here's the issue. Let me explain to you I don't know,
are you just for purposes of understanding here? Are you
familiar with the way that the value block? The value XML is
described in an RSS feed?
Unknown: vaguely, I mean, I say that I've set up a couple of
tests podcasts, but it's been a while. So.
Dave Jones: Okay, so there's a values in the XML, there's a
value tag, and that tag has children, which are value
recipient tags, this specify the addresses of the nodes where the
keys and payments are going to go. So in the end, each one has
a split amount, beaten? Yeah, it goes like that. So the what the
difficult what Oscar proposed was that in is that, instead of
explicitly declaring the, the, the lightning node ID and the
value recipient tag, that we would instead use a lightning
address. If so, then the lightening address would would
be resolved by the pay by the payer, by the payment sender, so
that you could have a level of indirection there, where if a
host if somebody that hosts a bunch of somebody that hosts a
wall host wallets for a bunch of feeds, if their node ID changes,
they don't have to go and track down all the RSS feeds and
change that node, that node pub key in all of those feeds. If
you agree with me so far. Yes. Okay. So then the issue it was
nice, okay, well, let's do a lightning address. And then the
Lightning. So the lightning address is going to specify the
key send payment information, which would be the pub key of
the node in a potential potentially a routing, hint of a
custom key and custom value. And that's fine, except if we're
going to Roy from Greece. And well, if we're going to fix
this, if we're going to put this in place, we might as well think
about the future as well. And let's look at both 12 and other
things that may be coming down the pipe. And let's try to sort
of solve all this at once. So if we're going to make if we're
going to make apps go out and look for a landing address, URL,
dot well known URL to get this payment in destination
information, let's make it an options file. So that you have
an up, he would have handled JSON structure. And the JSON
structure would contain a property dot JSON JSON object
would contain a property called options, which is an array that
has an array of objects, each object itself containing
information about a payment destination. So that would be
one of them might be L in your LP. Another one would be might
be keys, and another one might be Bolt 12 essentially give
saying for this user that I'm looking up, here's all the
different ways they can receive a payment. That's, that's the
idea. Does that sound number one does that sound like this spec
is not defined anywhere? Currently, we have key send Alby
supports this the dot well known keys and URL. And you also think
support L in your LP. But the idea here is just combining all
these so we don't have to have a bunch of different dot well
known URL, your eyes, we could do, we could sort of combine
what all of those different your eyes specify into a single file
that says here is all the different ways you're it's
possible to send this person that payment.
Unknown: I don't think the structure is too important,
whether it's multiple well known files are one one file with a
list of options. But both I think is a good idea, future
proofing, right. So that when you have this set up, like
applications can, can try to pay with one of the supported
options, right? And over time, it is applications improved,
they've been a wallet support, they can upgrade to pay with
bold 12, for example, which would have, you know, bit a bit
of privacy, no runners wouldn't have to open public channels,
which would make the network more performance as well. But at
the same time, there's not much support for about volt 12 yet,
we're working on it right. And I think lightning addresses, for
example, is a great intermediary solution for that. Even the LV,
our LV node infrastructure, we have the same issue because we
have our own node with this property that we have to keep
running because all these value tags and all these feeds, right,
they all point to this node, we have to keep it online. So So I
think, definitely having having a lightning address where you
can, or you know that you can point to the destination, which
can change without, because it's a lot more flexible, in my
opinion. I guess there are some downsides, right? It's more
difficult for application developers, they might have to
support multiple payment methods. And going forward, all
the existing apps will have to update to this format. I mean,
we can make it as backward compatible as possible. But
hopefully that does happen. I think Bhumi Boomi would be a
much better person to answer this question. But there's,
there's the best I can give you today.
Dave Jones: So you so you think do you have an opinion on
whether or not and whether or not it should be something like
a cuz here's the here's the difficulty I see. I can see it
both ways. Like, on the one hand, it's really nice to have
one place to check all the different payment that all the
different payment methods where you can say, okay, I can pay you
in these three potentially four different ways. But then also,
it's kind of once but once we get Bolt 12 broad adoption. I
don't know that any of these other met main Kison is not
going to I don't think Kison really survives the bolt 12
transition because then it's not really necessary. So at that
point, I don't know that the bolt well seems like the native
lightning, what Native lightning payments should be, should be
doing already with blinded routes and all of that stuff. So
I don't even see the point of keys and after bowl 12. And I
really don't see the point of Ellen, your LP, avail Ellen URL
after Bolt 12. Because both 12 is essentially doing the same
thing as ln your LP just under the covers in in a better way.
So at then, then I'm like, well, then we don't really need an
options file. Because there's not even any options anymore.
There's just one way.
Unknown: But this will take years to happen, right?
Adam Curry: For years.
Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I guess that's I guess that's
it.
Adam Curry: There you go. Dave years, we're early brother.
We're early in the process. We're very early.
Dave Jones: Well, I guess you're right. I mean, it. It's because
you're, you know, here's the there's, this ended up being a
can of worms. It's like, once I started looking at the structure
after this new thing. I'm like, Well, this sort of, if you start
specifying, and if you stop spending, start specifying an
options file, URL in the page value recipient tag, then all of
a sudden, the key send the method equals key send in the
value tag parent, doesn't really make any sense anymore.
Eventually, I guess. Like, because No, I mean, immediately,
because he said, you know, like, currently, the value tag
specifies, you know, a type of a type lightning and method key
sin, right. Then inside that structure, you have various
recipients, and they just have addresses in them. And those are
all the keys and addresses. Well, if we put in a lightning
address, where you're looking up an options file, and it gives
you the option for keys and or both well or anything like well,
then now you know, that now, it's to kissin method on the
value tag doesn't make any sense because they may not be paying
with keys and they may be paying with bold 12 or Ellen URL or
whatever. So I'm just thinking that it is sort of negates the
entirety it messes up the whole structure. So I thought this was
going to be simple when I first did it, but now I'm starting to
think that this doesn't make well yeah, Eric, it didn't make
sense to have method keys and apply to all the recipients
because that's it made sense at the time because it was assuming
that a single app it because that's all we had it just makes
us assuming that the app that's all I could send was key send
like it was only going to be able to do one thing like it was
either gonna be able to do Hive or lightning or whatever this
thing was so then you had you had that idea but now I think it
makes less sense now because now you can just beacon like you
like you're saying you can push that keys and it's being pushed
down into the value recipient. So I don't know I'm gonna have
to rethink this whole thing. And I've got a halfway written up
and I think I may just have to like rearrange a lot of stuff.
But then I don't want to break backwards compatibility. No, no,
this is like trying to jump through a flaming hoop is what
this this
Adam Curry: is why God created the weekend Dave. Stuff like
this. Sure. Final thing for Morrison rolling now. I know
Aldi is a German company as far as I know. Moritz, you're in
Switzerland. Rollin you don't even sound German. Where are you
from?
Dave Jones: Is the International Man of Mystery. No, we
Adam Curry: need to know where are you from rolling.
Unknown: New Zealand
Adam Curry: New Zealand. I got it. You did and are you in New
Zealand right now?
Unknown: No, I've I've opted out. I live in Thailand now.
Adam Curry: It makes it even better. What time is it in
Thailand?
Unknown: 2:30am.
Adam Curry: Brother. Oh, I wish we I'm sorry. Well, I was gonna
ask you know who you guys thought was gonna win the the,
you know the European Cup. The waiver is that UEFA Cup. Is that
what it is? You wafer what is it? No, it's
Unknown: not the way what
Adam Curry: is it? It's the the European European
Unknown: Championship exactly at national level. So of
Adam Curry: course I'm rooting for the Netherlands obviously.
How about their mon shaft? are you rooting for them? More to go
on for the for the Swiss?
Unknown: No, I think like the Germany had a very good start in
the tournament so I'm optimistic they will they will reach the
final. They
Adam Curry: always seem to somehow it always always Germany
France doesn't matter if it's football doesn't matter if it's
World War one or two. It's always Germany, France for some
reason. It's very weird.
Dave Jones: I just feel like we owe Roland an apology for having
to sit through this that auto tune song at 230 in the morning.
It wasn't all that bad.
Unknown: I actually I actually liked it. Yeah,
Adam Curry: I'm concerned with my suck you up. I'm concerned
with myself now that I liked what's going on? I want to thank
Morrison rollin for for joining us. Certainly rolling so late.
Really appreciate that. If you if you want to, you're more than
welcome to hang out. We're just going to thank some people.
These of course, are people who have also sent value to you
guys, we put you in the value block. So I presume that's being
received more. So you see come in. Yeah,
Unknown: it's actually we put getting emails and
Adam Curry: I'm sorry, I was a bit of cross talk. Sorry.
Unknown: So yeah, I'm running the LV hub with a few public
channels. So I'm receiving all these split payments and is
working great. Oh, good. Thanks. Thanks, guys. Yeah, good.
Dave Jones: Awesome.
Adam Curry: Let me just thank the people who were who were
boosting live. And of course, Sam said he comes in with 1000
SATs. And he says this discussion was so overly
complex. A note podcast listener is going to understand this.
Well, no. This is also the boardroom is not for podcast
listeners. It's for it's for the development people. He says
people don't pay for podcasting today. So if there are too many
technical hoops to set up a wallet, they won't bother I
agree. And and I think that Sam probably has a jump on this.
He's, he's deep into the lb hub. And you know, we onboard Dave
and we'll start to figure stuff out and if podcast index can
help with a bridge solution we're happy to so we definitely
want to make this make this work for everybody. The 5100 SATs
from Boomi, who you know who gave up his spot and he says
opening channels are the KYC process for the self sovereign
person. Interesting point.
Dave Jones: Yeah,
Adam Curry: yeah. DS laughs with 1000 SATs this boost is a
shameless promotion to hear my name mentioned Okay. On a side
note, any thoughts over leaderboards similar to the art
generator for the end of show mixes are having categories for
the best for the big baller booster and troll of the year
included in the podcast 2.0 awards. Okay, so there's no
looking forward to the pod awards. He says nope, that's not
going to happen. Yeah, we need to get Wallace 111 He's, he's
down under and he says hooked me up with that fat pipe. All
right. See Brooklyn 112 with 1000 SATs just came in. We've
got another 1000 from Sam Sethi complexity is failed simplicity.
Normal people don't want to create wallets etc. But we need
them to understand V for V and they have tokens called SATs to
give podcasters and have a one click top up which we have with
stripe. We need to hide the tech. I'm in total agreement. Oh
my gosh, he just Okay, here we go. Here's another quote from
Sam Sethi. Who was surprised nope, true fans already uses
I'll be helped today and it works. We do not have to change
your Albie API, we're going to create virtual wallets to start
with that means two clicks to get onboard. And we'll give them
a wallet with 5k SATs it removes five to six steps we had to do
before with Albea we already have stripe to SATs integration
so we can get people to top up this wallet. We will also enable
withdrawal for podcasters of SATs back to fiat Sam. We would
love to know what you're doing.
Dave Jones: Now he's just rubbing it in he is he's got
access to it. Yeah, he's like
Adam Curry: Nene Nene and you and your end. We'd love to know
how you're doing it brother because we just want to help
everybody do this. Okay. Call McCormick 2222 It's about Tom
curry gets back to work. Okay. Yes. Okay. Did you know Biden is
a clone? Okay. Yeah, there you go. Nein, nein nein from Jean
Everett. Thank you very much. 1948 from Sir Brian of London.
He says I drove a brown Buick custom regal from Chicago to
Little Rock. Paris, Texas Dallas, the grassy knoll Austin
San Antonio, New Orleans, Memphis and back to Chicago in
three weeks an awful car. They you go to jail Roland? No.
21,948 also from Sir Brian of London. Ancient computers ranged
in the long caves deep in the bowels of The planet take away
the dark millennia and the age hang heavy on their dusty data
banks.
Dave Jones: And stop drinking Brian
Adam Curry: 6969 from Hey citizen he says please, Adams
new album we need this yes, I'll work on it. Apparently I can
just do AI and fool myself. Sir duck with 5000 SATs first live
boost he says 10,000 from Chris. Chris last 10,000 Nice to have
you guys back 10,000 chatter from pod verse. This boost
Graham is being sent from pod verse app using my own node
connected Albu There you go. Mary cat tooled. Mary Kate Ultra
takes a second to look at it what can what is this? Oh Mary
Kate ultra 15,555 sets boosting so the boardroom knows to head
over to live is lit.com on Sunday, June 30 at 4pm for the
satellite skirmish a V for V Battle Royale boost your
favorite D MU artists live to ensure they win the battle of
the bands. And I think yes, took the tone wrecker. Last 133 33
Rainy Day in Minneapolis is perfect for cranking out some
additional college or collage art pieces and catching this
live episode today. And overdue day for the last 14 days worth
of booths and PayPals Yeah,
Dave Jones: this is this there's gonna be quite a few Roland
seriously if you'd if you need to get some sleep brother knows.
We're not offended if you drop out. Buzzsprout 1000 bucks
Adam Curry: dough thank God Sakala 20 his blade on am Paula
Buzzsprout keeping the engine room running. Thank you guys.
Thank you so much. Appreciate that
Dave Jones: as nice and warm. Thank you, Kevin and Tom and all
the guys over there appreciate y'all. We got blueberry $360
Wow.
Adam Curry: Sakala 20 Only Impala, the hosting companies
coming in strong with the value for value. Thank you.
Dave Jones: You need to go to Holland more often. From the
blueberry team lots of internal discussions on V for V and SATs
need to make it easier for listeners and podcasters we get
it? They don't. They don't. They don't see we get it. They don't.
So a Fiat token solution is critical. Let's not forget who
we're serving here. Go podcasting.
Adam Curry: What does he mean by Fiat token solution?
Dave Jones: Just onboarding. Okay. Trying to try to make it
easy.
Adam Curry: Sounds like Sam Sethi has it all figured out?
Yeah.
Dave Jones: Yeah. I mean, like, maybe, maybe Sam can run a back
end for for the hosting companies. I mean, like,
Adam Curry: Oh, there you go. There you go. Well, we're happy
to help. We just need to understand how we can how we can
fit in VSP
Dave Jones: values service provider, who? Sir Pete weenus,
RP $55.55. He says message, Adam and Dave, great work on shaping
and preserving the next level of podcasting. I follow your
discussions closely and have to get half I have committed to
running with scissors lifestyle with our own V for V podcast
called it's just a model. Here's some fun coupons.
Adam Curry: Thank you. Thank you, sir Pete for your coupons
and the bank. Yep.
Dave Jones: We got $50 from pod verse. Thank you, Mitch. Thank
you. Yeah. Jesse Anderson's and a $33.33. He there's no note
from from Jesse. Jesse Hunter $10. And that was a one off.
Thank you, Jesse Hunter and Kevin bass and as $5 is free
says this is the monthly interest from the endowment
fund. He'll
Adam Curry: podcast co podcasting to you bro. Thank
you.
Dave Jones: And we got some boosts we got. Let me fire up
the boost machine here. Oh, we got Mike dell 1701. That's a
Star Trek boost. He says at this you fountain he says SM seven b
not in B seven or SP seven or whatever. That's a Tod ism.
Adam Curry: Did I say wrong? Did I say incorrectly? I
Dave Jones: don't know. Maybe? Maybe. Andrew Grumman 2222 from
the wherever app. He says thanks for inviting me to the board
room. It was a blast downloaded at 10 extra times to run up the
numbers.
Adam Curry: Yeah. All our advertisers will be happy.
Remember to set the automatic download on your iOS app. binned
Dave Jones: over here comes to downloads. Mike Dale again 17
And one he says can't type today. I pass my check ride
today.
Adam Curry: Right on brother. Yes, yes. Welcome to the
exclusive and rather small club of general aviation pilots.
Dave Jones: Sir Brian have lunch and 18 444 through cast Matic
says we had a good day here today calls for a bigger boost
and a number you'll never fully decode V four v dot app wallets
will be available for send and receive very soon.
Adam Curry: Yeah, he's working on his own solution which
incorporates it with the with an lb like API. So
Dave Jones: he sends us videos of people like buying steak
dinner in Colombia or something with with his V for V app.
Adam Curry: Yeah, it looks. Yeah, it works.
Dave Jones: Very slick. Randall black 2000 says through podcasts
index, so through the apps through the website that's using
lb says LB is driving me nuts. They need to decide the route
they're taking and make it easier to onboard or off board
users. Well, I think right from the horse's mouth, they have a
Adam Curry: plan. Yeah, yeah.
Dave Jones: 10,000 SATs from Mary Oscar, also known as Oscar
marry the fans and he says great to hear more the history of
podcasting. What's he talking about? I have no Andrew grommet.
Oh, yes. Yeah, so
Adam Curry: if you haven't heard that episode, it's good. If you
want to hear some of the early days of podcasting, the stuff
that no one ever talks about? That was two weeks ago. Yes. Two
weeks ago the previous one it was board mountain boardroom
board meeting 182
Dave Jones: right at 93 sets from Red Bull through breeze Oh,
love breeze and seen magazine was much boost action from
Brady's lately. He says I love your music. We'd love you to
rebel
Adam Curry: must have been for the song Bill Prague the
Dave Jones: hive guy through SATs ski me through fountain he
says 2000 SATs he says I just sent myself custodial hive to
fountain using V for v dot app could be magic or it could be
Brian no idea that it works. I
Adam Curry: wonder if Brian is actually creating invoices you
know like oh invoice here click click click click if he's if
it's all automatic or if he's doing it manually.
Dave Jones: I wonder if Bill Prague is Brian's There you go
all
Unknown: the count that's the question
Dave Jones: Oh, here we go. 6969 from a citizen in pod verse. He
says I don't actually care about you guys. I'm just boosting the
song there you go.
Adam Curry: Man love you.
Dave Jones: Hey Sally, send us another 6969 He says okay, maybe
I care a little bit we love you to a citizen Mac 10,000 SATs The
family says sorry I missed the show live but listen to the end
as a download from the air on the way to Cali regarding bands
that Bitcoin please use the Embassy Suites as your Meetup
location, food drink and all things how V for V works. We
should have a full schedule next week. No, I wonder if Mamak mom
AC oh mom in mu m. m AC I think that's the mom of Ainsley
Costello
Adam Curry: Oh my goodness. I thought that was music mama yeah
music mama
Dave Jones: Yeah. Music mama Macintosh Sasha Richards 11112
Fountain he says if we are going to consider major re
architecture of P two o set streaming boosting et cetera
maybe 30 minutes
Adam Curry: Yes, another thing I gotta look into it I don't I
don't I don't understand them yet.
Dave Jones: No, I don't either. I don't either. Don't record
3333 says a rainy day admit Oh, do you already read though? A
rainy day and yeah,
Adam Curry: wrote yet by now.
Dave Jones: Yes. Yep. Comic Strip blogger. 24,000 SATs
through fountain. He says. Howdy, Dave and Adam. I like
again to recommend a podcast called just two good old boys by
two Texans Ben and Jean. They talk about fun stuff. Quote from
the last episode. Jean. Happy Father's Day. Ben. Thank you. I
would say Happy Father's Day to you but gene I'm not a father so
it wouldn't be correct. Been that you know of gene. Yeah, I'm
pretty sure you know, I know that. Because I'm not paying any
alimony find their podcast at WWW dot just to good ol boys.com
Yo, CSB. Totally riveting as much Wait,
Adam Curry: can't wait. Yeah, that's it. That's our group.
Very nice. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. While you're
looking at that, I'll just read you the tally coin donations
tally coin. We have closed our doors. Thanks for all the
memories.
Dave Jones: Nice. What it should say is this. We've closed our
doors thank you to drips got Yes,
Adam Curry: exactly. The only guy the only person was ever
using it exactly. Yes.
Dave Jones: monthlies, Basil Phillip $25, Lauren ball $24.20
Mitch Downey $10 Christopher hyperbaric $10 Terry Keller $5.
It's silicone florist $10 Chris Cowan $5 Paul Saltzman $22.22
Derek gives this girl the greatest name in podcasting. $21
You're in Rosenstein Rosenstein? I'm not sure $1 Daymond Cassie
Jack $15 Jeremy Garrett's $5 New Media Productions. That's Tom.
Dollars. Thank you. Michael Hall $5.50 Timothy voice $10 Trevor
Satan's lawyer $5 Do you think that's on his LinkedIn?
Adam Curry: I hope so. Yeah.
Dave Jones: Jorge Hernandez $5. Michael Gagan $5, Charles
current $5 James Sullivan $10 cone glotzbach $5, and
Christopher reamer $10. And
Adam Curry: thank you all very much for supporting us with your
value, the whole project, the podcast, everything has value
for value you put back into it, what you get out of it, whatever
it's worth to you support it support your podcasts index,
support your podcast app support, everybody. This is how
we move forward. And we want to thank Roland and Moritz for
hanging in there for supporting podcasting 2.0 It's really, it's
been phenomenal what you guys have done and we look forward to
solving and solving problems making it more robust and more
sovereign in the future. So again, thank you both for coming
today.
Unknown: Yeah, thanks for having us. No, really, really looking
forward to that. Yeah.
Adam Curry: And onboard Dave set to set it up because Dave is a
busy guy, so enlist onboard him.
Dave Jones: Brother day of Israel is rolling still awake?
Do we get Israel and he's he's still here. Yeah. He says, oh,
man, you
Adam Curry: are a trooper. Yeah. Are you in Bangkok?
Unknown: No, no, up north. Shanghai,
Adam Curry: Shanghai, Shanghai.
Unknown: may hang on.
Adam Curry: Oh, my hog song. Okay. I think I had dinner with
her once. It's nice. All right, everybody, Brother Dave, thank
you so much. Thank you, everybody who jumped into the
boardroom on a Saturday. We really appreciate it. We'll be
back Friday with another board meeting with the participants of
podcasting 2.0.
Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast
index.org. For more information. Go podcast.
Adam Curry: Squish is the right word.