Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for June 28 2024, episode 184 donor
bone haha Hey, hello. It's time once again for podcasting 2.0
And we're back on a Friday. Thanks for joining us on the
last episode, which was Saturday, everybody's here in
the boardroom we are ready to go. We are of course the only
boardroom that won't talk about the debate last night. I'm Adam
curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and Alabama.
The man who was three feet of pure Thunderbolt for under 75
bucks. Ladies say hello to my friend on the other end, the one
and only Mr. Dave Jones
Dave Jones: called me right in the middle of taking my shoes
off.
Adam Curry: I wonder what that was? Oh, there it is. Yes, yes.
Yes.
Dave Jones: All right. I'm good. I'm set now. Hey, David, how
Adam Curry: are you? I know. Are you on summer schedule? Do you
have to go back? Are you on lunchtime or what? Are you good?
Dave Jones: I'm free. I'm free. You free? Free, beautiful and
free of all time constraints.
Adam Curry: It's been. It's been one of those nights free of
time. That's right. Yes. No, I am. I was actually. Okay. Let me
work backwards. I was invited to appear on the media roundtable
with Dan Granger. Oh, really? Yeah. Which is a high Bobby.
Yeah. Which is not on the meat. Not on the on the roundtable
roundtable. But the podcast. Yeah. But on the individual. Hi,
Baba. My dog just came back from the from the groomer. She's
always nice. Smells nice. Smell good, y'all. Yeah, toes are
good. Hey, fevers, good girl. And, of course, you know, it's
like the timing of that was difficult. There's time zones
involved. I think he's in California. So we decided and I
and he called me, like, couple of weeks ago, I said, Are you
sure you want me on this podcast with?
Dave Jones: You? Seems like a terrible idea. It
Adam Curry: was an intro from James actually. I'm like, Okay,
from James crema. You really want me on this? But yeah,
definitely. And Tina this morning, we're saying Does he
know you? Does he
Dave Jones: feel like there's a like he thinks that you're Adam
Carolla. No,
Adam Curry: no, he knows he knew exactly who I was. And now we
only had an hour. And I knew that there's you can't do
anything in an hour. Like, because I got a show. I have a,
I actually said I have a hard stop at 12. So of course,
knowing that I would have to let it go to 1215. We had, I would
say we had a great conversation. And we have to do really we have
to do more episodes. Oh, yeah, he's a radio guy. He comes from
selling local radio spots. So he you know, we do have a lot of
touch points. But as it always is amazing to me. How many
people want to hear the story? Well, that's half your podcast.
And I was like, well, story of, of podcasts, that story of Adam
curry. Oh, which, of course is riveting. I understand.
Dave Jones: I read it quite often. And
Adam Curry: you know, I always try to give a different twist to
it and everything. But he's got a very professional outfit, you
know, people organizing, or there's all really good. But we
do have to do more, because I barely scratched the surface of
2.0.
Dave Jones: What was the overall what why did he want you on the
show? Well,
Adam Curry: you know, because I have a differing opinion about
the podcast industrial complex, but he made the mistake. Or, you
know, he says, well, it's unique. We're doing this today,
let's talk about the debate. I'm like, Ah,
Dave Jones: that's that's like,
Adam Curry: that's hours. 18 minutes, you know, it's like it,
but it's okay. Because, you know, we actually didn't
disagree much, but we're not going to talk about that here.
Because it's like, I don't want to thank you. Now, I don't want
to talk about that. And of course, this week has been
interesting, because Tuesday, I had to go in for a bone graft to
fix some stuff. Yes, some grillwork. Yeah, yeah, that was
kind of interesting. Have you ever had it where? Because, you
know, I'm, I'm friends with a periodontist. And, and we are
joking. We also fly together in his plane. We also joke around a
lot, you know, is it because you know, you like you like get the
Lidocaine and he's like, I'm sorry. So you're not sorry. Stop
saying that. It's a lie. It's fake news. So now he's he does a
sorry, sorry, not sorry. Not sorry. Not sorry. Javid it is so
but I'm really good. I mean, I actually is strange say it I
have fun when I go to these procedures. But then, you know,
he's poking around because we've had to take off a bridge and
then you know, get this this donor bone in and well Whoa,
whoa, donor bone. Oh, yeah. No, no, no, this
Dave Jones: what is this?
Adam Curry: Oh, no, I mean, I've had all the other work I had
done is it's the graft bone into onto your bone and it's bone
that's been donated, and this week there's a big sale on Hamas
bone. So I'm sorry I'm the worst. I know I'm horrible.
Dave Jones: Granger regrets ever asking you to come on his show?
Number one can donor bone the the name of the title?
Adam Curry: Yes, that's very good. Yes.
Dave Jones: And we I mean and who donates these bones like
well donate a bone to somebody else's mouth
Adam Curry: well so I actually I do pray for these people because
they're dead. They take the bone within 24 hours of someone
dying. And then you know, put it on ice or whatever. And then
there's a there's a bone bank consciences
Dave Jones: George Washington's slave tea
Adam Curry: Well, the previous the previous bone were convinced
was Uyghur bone. So you know, I now speak Mandarin and and Akbar
was working on what kind of
Dave Jones: this is the origin of these bones? Is
Adam Curry: it sorted? And who knows, you know, he may be
trying to get me a deal like getting something that fell off
the truck and I am against some cheekbone
Dave Jones: is a bone shyster.
Adam Curry: So but then, so before he takes off this, you
know, because then he has to drilled to get to this the
screws is that I mean, it's a very physical process. And it's
actually quite interesting, complicated instrument is it's
an erector set for sure. And if anyone if that's relevant to
anyone these days, and then he's poking around, he's like, and he
steps back, pulls down his mass, he says, Dude, now whenever your
periodontist does that I'm like, and I'm like, what? Now? You're
freaking out? Yeah, he's like, Well, it looks like we may have
significant bone loss it could have could have affected the
canine, the implant may have failed. That's a 2% chance and
implant fails. He said the implant may have failed, we'll
have to, then we'll have to go through this whole process of
taking that implant out extracting the canine we got to
put in we have to ossify bone for a couple months. Were
temporary, which means a whole time. I mean, I'm like, oh my
god, do I really?
Dave Jones: This is like starting over from
Adam Curry: smaller piece. But yeah. And he says, So what do
you want to do? He said, Well, baby steps. Let's get the bridge
off and see how it looks. And then he takes obviously, ah, now
we're good. Thanks. Thanks, bro. It's hard to tell. That's why I
didn't take it off. It's all good now, but then it was like
an hour of I mean, it's really physical. He's like digging
around because he had to make a group. I mean, I'll spare the
details. So it's just been it's just been an interesting week to
say, interesting week.
Dave Jones: I mean, how are you in pain? How's it how's your
mouth?
Adam Curry: It only hurts when that laugh. Okay, it actually
did it actually, if I really laugh broadly, but now it's not
painful. And I would advise anyone to take care of your oral
health because it has improved my life in so many ways. And,
and I'm amazed at how much I can actually endure when it comes to
pain got hearing for free got hearing for free. My
Dave Jones: allergies want to wander in bed. Yeah, everything.
Oh,
Adam Curry: I don't know about that.
Dave Jones: The sting of periodontal work.
Adam Curry: There's still some work on that on that front.
Yeah, and so there we are. Anyway, so it's just in so I
ended late with him. And I still had to find a song for today's
show. And I actually wanted to clip something which I didn't
get to clip because there was this fantastic YouTube
conversation of a couple of podcast now these are all black
podcasters and they just go on and me the title of the YouTube
is everybody in podcasting be broke. And now want to hear
this. Yeah, 60 minutes. So I got to clip it down. I'll put it in
the show notes. People can do that themselves. But it was it
was an interesting conversation because they're basically
talking about the big change, you know, ever since you know,
Spotify, basically eject it from the industry. You know, there's
no more minimum guarantees. It's a real hustle. Everybody has to
wait 90 to 120 days to get paid because you're getting paid last
in the chain after the agency and just what an incredible mess
it is. And then YouTube they finally gave me some real
numbers. Bala Thank you. 20 is blades
Dave Jones: to help head trigger. Yeah,
Adam Curry: let's see how see how big that baller was.
blueberry, blueberry 169,691 Whoa, he's still in the room.
He's blueberry enters the chat. I'm so enthralled with the
weren't put forward by the crew for the upcoming satellite
skirmish, lit in app Sunday 4pm Central Stephen B and Eric
peopIe have transformed the split kit into something really
magical. Please check it out at live is lit.com. That's an ad.
It's an ad. Hey, that's
Dave Jones: the way ads are supposed to work.
Adam Curry: Sam Sethi he puts in 100 SATs and says sadly, I can't
hear this live show on true fans pod verse or fountain? I don't
know. That doesn't seem to be I haven't heard any more reports
of that.
Dave Jones: I don't hear Yeah.
Adam Curry: Hope it works out. Anyway. Back to what was I
saying? I get to got
Dave Jones: interrupted live is lit is looking good. Oh, no,
that's
Adam Curry: already real good. That's looking real good. What
was it? What was a was an AI yapping on about so whatever it
is. Oh,
Dave Jones: good. YouTube. No. Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Curry: So it's $1 per six 600 views, which I think works
out to about a buck 40 CPM.
Dave Jones: Are you kidding? Net is horrible. And is it a is it a
sliding CPM? Based on based on other criteria? Or is that just
pretty much standard payoff for everyone?
Adam Curry: Oh, hold on a second. Dave. I see. I see the
problem. I see the problem. Oh, yeah. Remember, we put the we
put the we use the we did use a different stream on on Saturday.
Dave Jones: Oh, because we were interrupting somebody? Yeah. Is
that other stream still in the
Adam Curry: in the in the enclosure? Let me see. Yeah,
sorry. Okay. That makes sense. Let me see. Let me just make
sure this is the right stream. Yeah, that's the right one.
Sorry about that. Okay, maybe if someone can let Sam know.
Luckily, there's only a handful of people who listen to this.
Sure. It was just really interesting to see that you
know, that. They were really hustling but they really all the
money was now YouTube money. Even though they have a million
downloads audio. For the same podcast, they can't make any
money off of it. The whole thing is just it was it was very eye
opening. very eye opening.
Dave Jones: So what did you say the CPM was on? Like a buck? 40
for YouTube? Yeah.
Adam Curry: I mean, if it's six, if it's $1 per 600 views 1000
views would be about a buck. 40 about? Yeah, Buck 40. Yeah. Am I
saying that right? More or less?
Dave Jones: So if you had a million bunches see? And then
you
Adam Curry: and then, of course, that has to be qualified,
qualified views and the whole it's just a mess. And then an
algo
Dave Jones: miss a million views gets you 14 roughly 1400 bucks.
Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly.
Dave Jones: That's, that's, that's not life changing money.
Adam Curry: Well, you gotta be pretty heavy to get a million
views. But back to Dan Granger, you know, I did get to the point
with him was like, with the one thing no one ever talks about?
What do you what are these podcasts about? We all talk
about brand safe, not brand safe. But what are they about?
Who are they serving? You know, you got to just do a podcast,
just do a podcast and make money. Good luck. You have
something to say? Do you have an audience that you want to speak
to that you want to reach? If it's just entertainment stuff?
Okay, good luck. You know, this is what I love about this
podcast. This podcast is literally, for the people in the
2.0 community and others who are interested in it, then it's not
even a podcast, it's a board meeting. Hello. medium medium
equals board meeting
Dave Jones: that I was reading additional stuff that paywalls
this week. And I think I want to ask and ask our guest about that
though. But I mean, I think you know, one of the things I read I
think they just let's just speak generally here at this economy
is is teetering on the edge big to me like big time
Adam Curry: that uses a close up right in your business. You can
you are there indicators? Yeah.
Dave Jones: Well, yeah, but you know, it's more like the, the,
like, the story about Walgreens this week. And you know,
Walgreens is closing up to 25% of its stores. And I don't know
if you saw this but um, you know what they decided was consumer
they the CEO said consumers are quote stunned at prices right
now.
Adam Curry: I do not see it but I believe it Yeah, yeah.
Dave Jones: Says Walgreens is planning to close close about
25% of its 8700 stores cut his profit outlook for the year
citing worse than expected consumer spending. He said
quote, we witnessed continued pressure on the US consumer our
customers have become increasingly selective and
pricing sort of in their purchases? Yeah. I mean, that
the one thing that was I had been reading about the other day
is that, you know, retail retail spending, retail spending is is
reported as just the year over year numbers are like, Okay,
well, this is disappointing, because retail spending is only
up 3%, quarter over quarter or whatever. But that's never
inflation adjusted. If you look at the inflation adjusted retail
spending, down huge is down huge. Like it's it's basically
been been flat for about three years. And before that it was
down, it was down. It's this economy is way worse than than
is known, and that if you just read headlines, and I'm afraid
and like, I'm afraid that, you know, of course, you're not
going to be able to do the payouts that you used to be if
you're somebody like YouTube, and if or if you're any of these
sort of siloed closed systems, or advertising based systems.
You just can't, you can't do that because the spending is not
there. This is this economy is really weak in ways that we
don't understand because it's being
Adam Curry: what we're being gasless we're being gaslit a
it's great Biden omics works, it's all fantastic. But I see
it, I do I go to the grocery store, I shop. I said, like what
you can't get out of there for under 100 bucks when you look in
your basket, like what did I actually buy?
Dave Jones: Yeah, nothing. You know, isn't isn't a you know,
you get one, one grocery bag. And it's like, yeah, 80 bucks.
It's insane. So I just, I think that this all fits into this all
fits together. Because those CPMs if you look at you could
you can look at across this the same way with CPMs and
podcasting advertising. It's not this is not adjusting for
inflation, that $22 CPM or $23 CPM that was paying out five
years ago. It's still at $22 or $23. You're losing money every
year. You're losing money every month. You know if you're so if
you're studying if you're getting because we always hear
of these podcasts CPMs in the 2020 to $25 range, depending on
the show.
Adam Curry: Yeah, it's really down 30% adjusted for inflation.
Yeah, because it
Dave Jones: never that number has not moved. Yeah. So you
know, and then now your downloads are down. Because of
the apple podcast, the only iOS
Adam Curry: 17 apocalypse, yes, yeah. Hey, by the way,
everybody, if you're listening to Apple podcast, go into your
menu there and select automatic downloads and select last 10
episodes would really help us out. Hit the three dots. Three
dots. That's right. You'd really help us out. We're not
defrauding the advertiser at all. But
Dave Jones: that any any of these numbers that stay static
like this, you're you're losing money. This this is all that I
mean. So I mean, my son he's got two jobs My daughter has two
jobs because they have to because they have live random
life. Yes, they have a restaurant job which pays tips
which is which helps them make ends meet but their primary job
is you know, that's they're still making like 14 bucks an
hour. You can't live $14 an hour that is now an unsustainable
wage.
Adam Curry: Now the only people who are making 30 bucks an hour
on a government jobs surprise surprise.
Dave Jones: Oh yeah. Yeah, and people that buches
Adam Curry: buches is doing well. There were a lot of they
are so along with that comes the the fake stock market which of
course is also up because it's adjusted for inflation. Hello.
This is this is exactly how we're wired. Why are the prices
of stocks up because they're being adjusted and that doesn't
go What are we drinking?
Dave Jones: Oh, this is a liquid death mango chainsaw. Just
Adam Curry: gonna give you a stroke. Depressive name that's
that's what the word all all these strokes and heart attacks
is from energy drinks of course.
Dave Jones: No, no, this is pure. This is only sparkling
This is flavored water zero calories,
Adam Curry: but it hasn't. It has death on the label. Dave
Jones What are you thinking has depth on?
Dave Jones: This makes it makes you want to buy it? It's like
the Surgeon General's liquido Yeah,
Adam Curry: exactly. Like you could have these lungs if you
smoke these cigarettes. I think what bossom? Yes, yeah, that's
been proven to work actually. So the stock market of course
really being propped up or certainly the s&p 500 by Nvidia
and the end the exhaust Going in spending still on AI, which has
just been that it's going to crash. Or well, it's interesting
because I came across an article in Ars Technica, I talked about
it on no agenda yesterday. And, and it turns out that Brian of
London, did his PhD thesis on this very thing, which is and so
he's going to look at it for me and tell me if it's full of crap
or not. Here's the headline, Ars Technica ili Ars Technica, I
think that pretty interesting articles, I think they usually
spot on a lot of stuff. Researchers up end AI status quo
by eliminating matrix multiplication in MLMs. Running
ai ai models without float floating point matrix math could
mean far less power consumption. And so the highlight here is a
new paper titled scalable Matt mall free language modeling
researchers described creating a custom 2.7 billion parameter
model without using Matt mol, which is the matrix
multiplication that features similar performance to
conventional large language models. They also demonstrate
running a 1.3 billion parameter model at 23.8 tokens per second
on a GPU that was accelerated by custom programmed FPGA chip that
only uses 13 watts of power. That's a lot less than this
invidious stuff.
Dave Jones: DaVita says, I know the guy who wrote that paper.
And
Adam Curry: and, and so Brian of London knows this stuff. And if
this is true, this could up and in videos, high perch very
quickly. Oh, yeah, for sure. Um, that would be a
Dave Jones: funds from invidious documentation matrix
multiplication, background User Guide. General matrix
multiplications are a fundamental building block for
many operations in neural networks. Yeah, they have a
whole document on multiplication in their invidious
documentation. And that
Adam Curry: Brian of London, did his thesis on Friday, like I
never said never ceases to amaze me. Very interesting.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that could that could be that could be, it
could be bad. It could be bad. Because I mean, the NVIDIA is,
is, I mean, they're, they're half the market now. Nobody else
is going up. Nope.
Adam Curry: Do we want to talk at all about what we've been
working on behind the scenes? Where do you feel it's too
early?
Dave Jones: I mean, we can I mean, I've got I can I can, we
can demo it real quick, if anybody wants to play along.
Okay.
Adam Curry: Let me let me I'll tell and then we actually bring
in our guests midway, because they can probably weigh in on
this might be I think it'd be of interest to them. These rock and
roll boys. So I'm gonna be honest, and I think I speak on
behalf of you, Dave, Saturday's podcast board meeting was kind
of a gut punch. When it comes to albies, understandable switch
away from providing custodial wallets. Whereas right now,
we're kind of in this frozen state of you can't in the United
States, which arguably is a market that's important that we
can't create new custodial wallets for value for value
payments. And as much as I do, and this of course, was flagged
a while ago by the Costello Institute. Jim Julian Ainsley,
hello in the Costello Institute, who, you know, they're like
this, this is not working. We can't be onboarding musicians by
you know, by giving them an hour long onboarding, onboarding
session, orange pilling him and then telling that need to, you
know, fund a channel on their node. I mean, this is this is a
non starter. And I understand and I also understand why Alby
has to move this way. And from a larger perspective, stepping
back it's kind of the whole Lightning Network concept falls
apart a bit on on this idea of custodial can't be done. Yeah, I
mean, even even for noster zaps if you think about it, I mean,
all that stuff is wallet of Satoshi you know or whatever.
It's all it's all custodial wallets, except for you know, a
few exceptions and Zeus is there and and the breeze wallet and
there are others. But everyone else is kind of either pulled
out of the market or seeing some writing on the wall and saying
wow, doesn't look it looks like we're all money transmitters
now. So we kind of, you know, the only the only outfit that
has both sides in a way is fountain because they have the
Zebedee on the back end which has the money transmitter
licenses. All right.
Dave Jones: So they can I mean, Roy told us this. There's so
many things we're going there's so many parts to this all at the
same time. Because I Roy told us this a year ago, that
everybody's just sort of like doing everybody's doing this and
not really and just sort of hoping that to stay under the
radar. Right? Because they don't. Because no, because it's
never really been tested in any legal sense about money
transmission if you're if you're hosting custodial wallets. And
it's understandable that that, you know, organizations like
Alby in, I mean, Tim, at LNP, he said the same thing. He's like,
I don't, this is too risky. I mean, I don't think he didn't
think he's doing anything wrong. But But this, the regulations
are just so unclear.
Adam Curry: And not yet not even just the regulation, just the
whole managing a massive node. You know, with all these
accounts, and you know, when you have accounts, there's all kinds
of issues, and I get it, I totally understand it. But the
hope that we had placed a lot of our bets on was this LSP model,
which also kind of got rug pulled. Because what came back
as well, it really doesn't make sense for for micro payments, to
have an LSP. Because there's no ROI on opening up the channels
for these little little bitty bits you guys are sending back
and forth. But oh, okay. Well, that wasn't made clear.
Dave Jones: That's, that's a good points. So the lightning
ecosystem was promised from the beginning to be the solution to
on chain difficulties. And it was it was very much positioned
as the, the way that people could, like, do things like pay
for your coffee, and this kind of stuff. And so that the idea
there is that this was this was these were ways for crypto to be
served for Bitcoin to be spent by the average person. You know,
but then, if you don't, but I think we took that to mean this
was the ditch you can be saw sovereign in this way. Yeah. And
that's not entirely accurate. You technically can be.
Adam Curry: Yeah, but it's not for the every average day guy.
It's not an app you install on your phone. I mean, and God
bless Chad F man, he's out there. This is a dough. What do
you what did Dr. Pepper baby from Waco, Texas? The original
Yeah. Oh, G. God bless Chad F for you know, being on the
cutting edge of Zeus and their Olympus LSP. But it's, you know,
it's still it's got to run in the background on your phone and
the minute that disconnects and of course, we chose KY sand for
a whole bunch of reasons. Mainly because, well, you run into the
same issues with Ellen URL. I mean, you still have to have a
custodial solution somewhere doing something. You know, it's
not like you just have a wallet, and I'm good to go. You know,
yeah, you've got stuff that is working. But in the background,
it's all the same problem.
Dave Jones: Yeah, which so what we've seen, what we were told
was that lightning was going to fix all that. But what we've
seen what's actually happened is lightning is Eve has evolved
into a way to move funds between institutional wallets is a way
it's the glue that makes things easier for the for the large
players. Yes. If you have a if you have a
Adam Curry: well if you have a Zebedee, Zebedee can actually
provide that type of service. But they don't cash out but they
don't do it free. You know, you can't become a Zebedee partner
and just say hey, look, I got free wallets No.
Dave Jones: So you know that it's going to be that Lightning
Lightning is going to serve a role but lightning is going to
serve the purpose of of decoupling treatment money
transferred fun transmission from the chain for people for
larger for larger institutions, like you're gonna have a Cash
App wallet and now you can move Bitcoin from one place to
another without having
Adam Curry: you can move it to strike you can move it to strike
or something else. Yes, exactly.
Dave Jones: And that was going to NS was going to our or your,
your, your point of sale providers like breeze does that
square, you know, the they're all going to link together with
lightning and that's going to be fine. But for our for our
purposes. It's just a humongous barrier. Because if you have to
be a money transmitter, yeah. So
Adam Curry: chat. Chat app says in the in the chat he says you
can connect the Zeus LSP to a no Oh, that's what I did 5 million
sets in bound for $20. That's not going to work. I mean, this
is my point in the lb guys. They're Correct. Like, hey,
everybody needs one of these. Everybody needs their own wallet
is a node in the cloud? Sure. But it's, it's a non starter,
the minute you have to pay for it, no one's going to do it.
Even the having the knowledge of a channel, and no one wants
that. That's just marketing wise, that will not work. It's
hard enough to explain Satoshis blood, let alone all this other
stuff. So you
Dave Jones: got so you got to with all that in the background?
You started looking into No,
Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I did what I always do.
I got on my knees and fought like a man in prayer, Dave
Jones.
Dave Jones: Okay. And then it came to me what happened? God
Adam Curry: gave me a solution, I think, okay, and introduce me,
it really happens this way. Like, all of a sudden being the
pops a message, like check this out. And it's this concept
called E cash. And I'm going to try and explain this. It is the
equivalent of a gift card where you create a gift card of any
amount. And you can then hand that to somebody else, you could
physically hand it to them on a QR code, you could send this
string of payment information to them on to email, you could send
it through ham radio, is actually how I found out about
it, believe it or not, that people using this with ham
radio, and the actual settlement of said giftcard happens on on
the node that it was created. And I like this, because you can
create, you can use multiple funding sources. The E cash, by
the way, was mentioned in the Satoshi white paper. It's a
concept that's been around for decades, it never really caught
on. And a couple of guys decided to build this on top of Bitcoin,
specifically lightning, but you could also use it with Fiat with
with dollars and which is interesting and should be looked
at. And we'll get to that. But right now we have an
implementation based on the Lightning Network. And what is
most interesting about it is that the flay funding source can
be offered through the strike API. Now you can also use your
own lightning node so so you can, you can still use this
solution in a sovereign way. But you can also use it with a
strike wallet. And why is that interesting, because strike is a
money transmitter. And they have all the licenses to have to
facilitate people to send and receive via, via their system.
So we have a reference implementation that we've put
together, it's called a mint. And what you do is you you fund
your E cash wallet, and the E cash wallet is literally
JavaScript. So you can spin up a million wallets as many as you
want. It doesn't make any difference, it looks just like a
lightning wallet. You say, Okay, I want some money in this. you
fund it by sending a lightning payment, just a regular
lightning payment to the mint. And then that money shows up
right away in your E cash wallet in Satoshis. You could again it
could be dollars, euros, whatever. In fact, they even
have $1 in your implementation.
Dave Jones: Let me let me hit pause on you for a second that
this is I need to I need to just insert here that this is a very
hard thing to explain to people
Adam Curry: told it took me two days to get to explain it to
you. Yes,
Dave Jones: it is very difficult to explain. When you first start
seeing this thing and trying to explain it. It sounds the eyes
glaze over and the person you're talking to is like this is not
better, this is worse. But if you just hang in there, it
actually is easier. You just get a hang with it from
Adam Curry: from from a high level. You fund so you have a
wallet. you fund it with a lightning payment. You can do
that from any any app, you can fund it. You could fund it from
strike from Cash App just it's a regular old lightning payment,
no keys and nothing special. That's how you fund it. You see
that? Forget what happens on the backend. You see that in your
app, your your wallet, and you can pay someone and the way you
pay someone is you say here's the amount, pay someone and it
gives you a string. And that string literally can be given to
someone. They put it into their wallet they say receive and They
receive right into their wallet. So that means you can send that
through any transmission protocol you want. The beauty on
the back end is it never actually leaves the funding
source. It's all there. So you're actually creating a gift
card, someone's taking it, and then when they redeem it,
they're going back to what's called the mint, and they redeem
it there, and they can send it out to wherever they want.
That's how simple it is. And the beauty is no fees. You have
fees, getting it in and out, you know, regular lightning fees.
But you you send one Satoshi, the person gets one Satoshi. And
there's no fee in between. It's a very, it's immediate, it's
like just it's fast.
Dave Jones: So just put a just put a link to a wall a wallet.
That's the Wallet Cash you don't me. Service. It's just a it's
just a demo wallet, that they that they use what this it's it
makes more sense when you do it. Yeah. So the wallet, the wallet
is just this is just some JavaScript is stored in your
local in your browser, local storage. You get you get some
seed phrases to restore to recover the wallet if you ever
lose it. Standard wallet II type stuff. And then what happens is,
you can link your wallet to multiple mints. And for for
testing purposes we we created a mint.
Adam Curry: You want to post that in the in the chat.
Dave Jones: I'm going to I'm going to do one better. I'm
going to post the I'm going to post a voucher.
Adam Curry: Oh, we're only one person who's gonna get it. Yeah,
right. Yes. Whoever whoever uses that voucher first wins. Oh,
boy. Oh, I'm itching to do it. I'm itching to do it. Let's see.
You have to you have to decode it. Oh, you're sending more than
one. You're doing multiple vouchers. No,
Dave Jones: no, no. This is like I tried to just do one. But
Adam Curry: we'll see how that works. Somehow we got three in
the chat. Okay, well, I'll
Dave Jones: make the extra post it on podcast index does social
Well,
Adam Curry: whoever. So whoever paste that into the received box
on the cashew wallet will get the Satoshis?
Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah. So the
Adam Curry: code that's all one. Oh, I see that. Yeah, it's
broken up. Oh, it split it up. Okay,
Dave Jones: that's bad to meet. Yeah, you're saying too many
steps. But this is what I'm saying. Hang on, hang in there.
It's, it's, it's more. It's not as bad as it sounds, because the
issue here is that the is you have to think about this as if
it's a podcast app. The podcast app spins up a wallet just like
you're going to this page. And the person who's wanting to fund
that wallet, just send some funds to it from a source that
they already own, like Cash App strike, whatever they they have,
they have like you already have some bitcoin somewhere. So this
simplifies the onboarding process or does because you
already have some funds in a trusted wallet that you are
controlling. So then you since you send the some of those funds
over to the wallet that's tied to the mint. So the in that
wallet can be spun up by any app and the app doesn't have to have
custodianship over anything, the custodian ship is at the minute.
So then when, when the payment happens is just an E cash
voucher for the tokenized for the tokenized Satoshis. And that
just trades back and forth instantaneously, it's all
offline transactions. Then when somebody wants to take their
money out the podcaster they just transfer it in a lightning
payment back out to their wallet, cash out whatever strike
it's, it's sort of like seeing you know, funds go into get
tokenized and go into the to the system ie the mint. And then
they come out on the other end back into whatever funding you
know what destination 70 So
Adam Curry: the people get stuck at the Mint. So again, just from
a high level and then I want you to go back down Dave from a high
level. You open your podcast that there's a wallet, that
wallet is connected to really connect it to nothing you don't
have to know and you don't have to know anything. And it says
would you like to fund the wallet? Yes. How many sets do
you want to put in? And you So you send SATs to an it can even
be an Ellen URL address or it can be Adam at podcast index dot
social actually, theoretically. They say you send that from Cash
App from strike from You're a wallet of Satoshi you send it
from fountain, whatever it is you send it in. From that moment
on, you're good to go, there's no step three, then you're just
boosting and, and, and sending SATs, as you normally would. On
the receiving side, the podcasts are has a wallet, and they get
all these receives like boom, boom, boom. And then when they
want to do something with that, they take it out of their wallet
by sending a simple lightning payment somewhere back to Cash
App, back, strike, back to fountain wherever you want to
have it. And that's it. And the beauty is the custodian ship can
be completely sovereign, on your own you so someone can be a
funder of that and be a node, you could even do everything
from your own node. But the reason why it's a solution in
this at this moment in time, is because it's all running through
strike, and we're getting a business account. So and I think
that this is something that hosting companies should have
their own account that they're using to fund a meant for their
podcasters is, you know, there's no reason why podcast apps
wouldn't consider doing that. But we're happy to start it
because all the money transmitting is actually being
done through strike. That's the beauty. They have the
transmitter licenses. Now. Does that mean it works in Australia,
I'm not sure strike in Australia, I don't know
Dave Jones: that well. But this doesn't matter, though. Because
the the mint, it's just the back. Right? You're right. The
mint, the mint is tied to the mint, the mint can be funded
from anywhere, it just needs a place to store this, the funds,
right. And that can be either your own your own lightning
node, it can be a strike wallet, it can be an Ellen bit server,
it can be many, many things on the back end, it does not
matter. Because what happens is when the when the funding goes
out, you spin up a wallet on the mint. And when you transfer some
funds into the meant it it just all goes into a number on the
back. Yeah, you know, and this is this is part of the this is
part of it because the custodian ship, custodian ship. You know,
it can mean two can mean two things it can mean you just
possess the ability to you just possess control over the over
the total balance, or do you possess control over individual
accounts. And the thing is, like, right now, this is tied to
my Stripe account. This Mint is being funded by my Stripe
account. That's where
Adam Curry: that's where the trust part comes in.
Dave Jones: Right. So all I see. All I see is a number. I have no
if if 10 People made wallets on on this and put stuff in there,
I would have no idea who that I have no way of knowing. That's
the show the showman. E cash protocol is that everything's
encrypted. I have no idea whose money belongs to who anything.
It's just a big blob.
Adam Curry: Let me explain. RPP No, no, no, not no. You only
need you only need one mint. Yes, you only need you don't
need not everybody has to have a mint. That's just trust, who do
you trust to be your mint? That and that's
Dave Jones: what makes it thief. That's what makes it fee free is
because it's just, it's just moving numbers in a database.
You know, like net now I give you like this, you know, I send
you a voucher which you know I did in the in the IRC channel, I
send a voucher for 100 Satoshis. To to you on the mint. Well,
you're, as long as you add that mint to your wallet. You just
you just get it. It's just there. Because the funds it's a
promise for the redemption of funds. So So
Adam Curry: RPP if you only trust yourself, then yes, you
can use your own mint. That's the beauty of it. We all trust
it Albie, that were great until I'll be there's not that we
don't trust them. But they changed the rules. So you still
have to if it's custodial, you still have to trust someone. So
you are more than welcome to run your own Mint is actually quite
simple. And you just run it as a part of your of your node that
you already have.
Dave Jones: But there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff to work
out just to see if this is going to work to you know, there's a
lot of stuff.
Adam Curry: But the beauty of it is that you don't have to get
you don't have to have a whole Erin URL type solution. You
could you're just sending you're just sending a number, which is
what Dave just did in the chat. So you can transmit that I mean,
you can transmit it through any type of protocol Yeah.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's that's pretty good sir Spencer, he
cashed a step between being noted up and a custodial
lightning. Yeah, I would say that that's true. That's a good,
Adam Curry: that's a good way of describing it.
Dave Jones: I mean, the way that I would envision if we can get
something like this to work, the way that I would envision it
working, is a trust. Yeah, the is the podcasting community, and
stakeholders within the podcast and community, US hosting
companies, podcast apps, anybody who can, should be a part of a
of the, of owning the mint. So that it's so that no one parent
so that we don't have to put all of our trust in one person.
There's a, there's a mint for pod, there's a podcast mint. And
everybody you know, in, in, it's held in trust by many different
people who have, who have a stake in the game. And that
ensures trustworthiness. And then, when everything goes into
that meant, and everything comes out of that meant, there's no
fees, there's none, there's none of these problems. That's the
way I envision it working.
Adam Curry: Now, the only thing I'd say I have a different
vision, because that's very difficult to do, although this
group could actually do it. It may also be just a good idea to
have multiple mints. It's transparent. the adding of a
mint is is it can be autumn automatic. And I think a lot of
people would trust their app, people would trust their hosting
company, or people may trust us. And you can choose or you can
trust yourself. I think multiple minutes is not a bad idea. It's
Dave Jones: not it. I just I feel like in and I don't want to
get too stuck on it. But it just seems like it does seem that
there has to be a trust factor. The more people involved in a
single Mint is the higher it just raises the trust level, the
greed, everybody's looking at, you know, because everybody's
watching it everybody else's back. So because that, you know,
we we can run it, you know, we could run a mint. But then then
people have to trust us and
Adam Curry: oh, what a stupid idea.
Dave Jones: I think they do that people do trust us, but it's
almost too much. I don't want to expect that out of people. You
know, I'd rather have somebody a few other people that are
involved who were saying, you know, yes, everything is on the
up and up and nobody's going to run off with you know, with all
this money to Mexico or whatever. It's just it's just
that kind of thing where you're asking for trust it I feel like
the trust but verify it's the verification part is when other
people are involved. Anyway, this I mean, this like lots of
work to do. This is just a test. I don't know if anybody redeemed
a DUI or redeemed
Adam Curry: I think someone's that was 184 SATs was that
right?
Dave Jones: Yeah.
Adam Curry: Someone got it.
Dave Jones: Yeah, they did give somebody got it. I just see them
I left my wallet. So I have no I had no idea who it was there's
it's just all blunt. It's all because of encryption is all
blinded. LSA is just now going transact chat
Adam Curry: f the, you fund the mint by putting money into your
wallet. That's literally how it so you put 1000 SATs into your
wallet. You've just funded the Mint for 1000 SATs when someone
redeems that they get 1000 SATs in their E cash wallet when they
want to send it somewhere else. There may be a lightning fee if
they send that out. But then that's how that's how it leaves.
So yeah, so
Dave Jones: if you if your wallet is tied to our mint, and
you transfer 1000 sets and the balance and my strike wallet
because it's tied as the backend funding source is gonna go up by
1000 SATs but I don't know that that's you because I had there's
no date because of the encryption is all blinded and I
don't know what's what no challenges I just see the
numbers going up and down so chat
Adam Curry: f no the mint Yes, the mint of course needs
liquidity that's why it can be a node or can be strike strike as
liquidity your own node would have liquidity.
Dave Jones: But it gets its liquidity from from the back end
funding source Yeah,
Adam Curry: but the actual sending back and forth requires
no liquidity because you're talking to this it's centralized
you're talking to the same server which is why I like
multiple mins because it's still it all shows up in your in your
E cash wallet as just one amount.
Dave Jones: The downside of multiple minutes is you have to
do a min swap which involves a lightning transaction so there's
just more there's just more likelihood for something to
fail. Then you have to do this advantage. Yeah the I mean the
min swap is Why do lightning transaction right?
Adam Curry: Oh you mean oh if Yeah. If you if you want to send
it out? Yes. So
Dave Jones: like if the listener is on one man and the the
podcaster is on a destination wallets on a different man then
you You have to do a mint swap?
Adam Curry: Right? Well, I think the idea is the payer by ie the
listener, uses a mint. And that Mint is then automatically added
to the podcaster. side. I understand the issue of having
multiple means being a little more complicated in redeeming to
send that out. But it's not something that can't be
overcome. Just
Dave Jones: I don't know, it's, it's so early days, it's just
yeah,
Adam Curry: but the main thing is what what transpired, I'm
already in my head, I'm already okay, that part I see the
wallet, the wallet part is great, because any podcast app
can just throw in some JavaScript. Here it is, you're
good to go. Literally. It's all of course, it's all open source.
Here it is. The transport protocol is what is interesting
to me. What do we use to send the tokens from the listener to
the podcaster? Because that was always through the Lightning
Network. And now Now, there's a lot of very robust systems. So
that's the next question is what what do we use that makes it
easy for even apps like Casta Matic to send this payment with
payment information? Thank God, we'll be rid of the TLV record
Cluj. Because we'll have more room or space, options, options?
Dave Jones: Well, I don't know. What's that? See, I mean, like,
it's people need to be know, me, us. People who are so inclined
need to just play with it. Because let's just all and I'm
going to keep that meant running, please, please don't,
you know, depend on it. Because it's, this is all very
experimental. Don't put important, you know, sets in
there that you're not willing to lose. But But you feel free to
use it for testing. I'm gonna leave it up and running while
I'm doing testing. So, but just play, play with me. You can
literally spin up Kashi wallet. And then with some with a little
bit of JavaScript is not a big deal.
Adam Curry: Yeah, we'll just go to cashew.me. And you've got a
wallet right there. Boom, yeah. You can play with it right away.
So you
Dave Jones: could stick that in a progressive web app, podcast
player and have all kinds of fun.
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's another big benefit. I mean, and I'll
just and then we'll bring in our guests. I'm just so in the back
of my mind. I keep hearing activity pub. I don't know why.
Dave Jones: But some payment for training and transport. Yeah.
Yeah. Never transport. Yeah. Yeah, that means it's, it's it
is a it is a very reasonable next step. Next place to go, I
think.
Adam Curry: And it's a huge pair of scissors. Oh, it's it's hedge
shears actually.
Dave Jones: Yeah. All
Adam Curry: right. They've waited long enough. They waited
patiently. We are very happy to have them here for the third
time in the boardroom. Please say hello, from rss.com to Ben
Richardson, Alberto batalla. Everybody.
Unknown: Hello, hello.
Adam Curry: Hello. Hello. Hello, gentlemen. Any, any initial
responses to what you just heard?
Alberto: I mean, it's complex. I have to say I was concerned when
I listened to Arby's, the interview of the guys at RB in
the previous episode, because I was thinking about as our
company and we launched value for value in for all our
podcasters exactly two years ago, July 2022. But precisely
because RB was simplifying the process and dealing with the
complexity in the backend, but now it's disheartening almost
seeing that the regulators are slowing down progress. And yeah,
when I when I heard you, Adam offering to pre fill the wallet
to hos wallet, I thought it was a great gesture, but I also
thought this removes the unique value proposition of a company
like Alby. Imagine they go to get to VCs, or to get a
convertible note. And they say, okay, but the Walter fields by
by the geyser pot podcast index, right. So it's kind of it's a
bit of a catch 22 It's complex.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, this is a thing that we
have to figure out. Yeah. That was a lot. That was a lot of
complexity there to explain. Yeah. But it's not. This, this
other way of doing things is, I think, if if if there's two
questions, if it works well, and people can code to it, and I
think that's very possible. And the other question is is can it
be that we have a back end funding source at a regulated
entity that will play ball with us? If that's the case, because
like, we're, what because the idea here is to have you know, a
meant for podcasting. You people been saying the whole time,
okay, we Why don't you you should have like a podcast
token, you know podcast coin or whatever this kind of thing.
It's exactly what this is. And nobody Yeah, nobody wants that.
But this, but this sort of is that thing. So you have you
know, if you have this, if you have a mint, this this sort of a
trustee of the funds in a tokenized way, it's a token,
it's a bearer, it's a bearer instrument is what it is. Yeah.
It's like having $1 bill. Yeah. So you have this, things go into
the into this trusted meant. And if there's a regulated entity on
the back this, this that, like strike, if we are able to, we're
going to work on opening a business account with them, and
explaining to them what we intend to do. You know, be
perfectly honest, here's, here's what we would like to do, we
would like to have, you know, amant in this would be the
funding source for it. If that, if they're willing to do that,
to me, that solves many, many problems. Because everybody now
is just, it's just instantaneous transactions, there's none of
the complexity that we have to deal with, that we've had to
deal with right now,
Adam Curry: what was really interesting, and in my
onboarding experience to this, you had the mint set up, I had a
strike account, but I've never done anything with it. So I
hooked it up to my bank account, just like you do with Venmo. And
I sent $5, I literally sent $5, but I didn't send, you know,
20,000 sites, I just sent $5 And it showed up as $5 in my E cash
wallet.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's the other thing is is this as a
Ecash is a tokenizing. It tokenize as any asset so it can
it can tokenize Bitcoin, USD, it anything you can send it into
it, that it will create a barrier, a barrier to barrier
voucher for that thing. What goes in is what comes out.
Adam Curry: And that was really pleasurable, because there's
like, Oh, $5, I get it. There wasn't Satoshis, you know, etc.
In fact, strike shows that as $5, you've got to be you've got
to physically tap it to make it turn into SATs.
Dave Jones: Yeah, so, you know, we, you know, maybe if we can
get if we could get something like this to work, I think it
was simplified for everybody, honestly. Yeah. I think every,
you know, everybody would make it would make something like
what you did with Alby, Alberta and make it like child's play.
Instead of having to integrate with their API and this kind of
thing? It would it would really remove all that complexity from
from from the coding aspect. But I don't know, it's, it's what
we're pushing.
Adam Curry: We're just pushing, I'm running with scissors. We're
trying to make something happen.
Dave Jones: Yeah,
Alberto: I liked the idea of vouchers that you discuss just
for meaning, if I think of ways to postpone the issue, for
example, tax or compliance. A voucher is like phantom shares,
right? It's an alternative approach. It could be it's based
on trust, but as you said, before you trust also, whoever
holds the keys to your custodial Wallet. So that could be also an
option. I don't know exactly how it would play out. But a promise
a voucher, you know, that could help send an email just
Adam Curry: and what's also nice about it is you don't have to
have something as online. You just receive Do you receive this
voucher and you can redeem it whenever you feel is no time
limit.
Alberto: Yet now I'm maybe I'm overthinking but this could be
an NFT for example, or similar principle. So no one called a
smart contract where you have an I'm saying there is a smart
contract that regulates this promise. And you can do
something with what you have you can sell it you can just cash it
in this resonates to me as possible use of smart contracts
Dave Jones: that's an ad that I didn't think about because it
because the because the voucher that cashew voucher is, I mean,
it's fungible. So you could you could pass it along or somebody
else you wouldn't even count Yeah, you didn't have to keep it
necessarily. That's it Jen never thought about that. That's
that's pretty cool. So what you know, you guys have been busy.
Adam Curry: Yeah, I was gonna say now most talk about you
guys.
Dave Jones: You have been busy. That's why I wanted to have you
on the shows because you're Been doing a whole bunch? And I mean,
I guess number one is on the list is the lit, you know, live
item tag. Y'all put that in earlier this year? And I just
want you to, I mean, can you just tell me how it's going me
you're having live pod AI podcasters do do live very
often. How popular is that?
Alberto: Okay, so I looked at the stats before hopping into
this episode. And we had only in a month, only 30 episodes. But
my sense is that most of them were tests. So I have to be
honest there. And this means we need to educate more podcasters.
So I guess they're released per se made it simple, created a
simple interface to start a Live episode. But it takes also a lot
of applications for podcasters to, you know, to be able to
really leverage these new this new way of podcasting, if you
want, which is actually back to the old radio. It's live, you
can interact, you can. It's exciting. I think we have to
work on that.
Adam Curry: When you when you spin up a live stream for
someone for a live episode. Does that include a a chat mechanism?
Or is that something that people have to bring themselves?
Alberto: Not yet it doesn't include the chat mechanism, we
we thought about the end to end process. And as usual, when we
have to decide how to roll out a feature, we split it into
milestones or deliverables. So we did the minimum viable
implementation now where it's very easy to start the episode
to schedule a start and end, but nothing else. And we thought a
when we see a bit of uptake, we are going to invest more time.
So not yet.
Adam Curry: Because just as someone who's been live
streaming, while recording, for we know it for 15 years, I think
that the the chat is such a necessary component, I
understand what you're saying about the rollout is just that,
that's what really brings it alive. If you look at no agenda
stream, that's, you know, that's that's not a 24 hour stream.
People pop in, they grab control of the stream, the bat signal
goes out through pod paying people know to open up their app
to check in, boom, they're in a chat. And you know, then all it
really comes alive when you have the boost bot and all these
things happening in there. It's really a it's really an
essential component, I feel.
Ben Richardson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we see that even here
today, right? I mean, you guys were looking at the chat, as you
talked about all these different implementations and certainly
added a little bit more interest to me as I was about falling
asleep out of my chair.
Adam Curry: Oh, please. Oh, I can no blase. Oh, all right.
Bernie, seriously, quiet down there.
Ben Richardson: Yeah, seriously. We hear your date, Adam. And
and, you know, there you have the benefit of not only the
years of experience, but you do see ahead. I mean, I think
you're probably 10 years ahead of everybody else. In many
aspects. That's why I'm poor.
Adam Curry: Everybody else, everybody else off with the
great ideas after 10 years and makes a billion Oh,
Unknown: trust me. I've got like three notes here already on how
we're gonna make tons of money off of your ideas in about eight
years.
Dave Jones: You put a reminder on your phone. Yeah, remind.
Remind me 2032
Alberto: We just filed the patent right now. Real time.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's, I think. I feel like I feel like
the testing part is good, though. Because when people do
it, they realize it's not as scary maybe as they is they
think, yeah, I was scared. I was scared to do a live show until
until Adam, you know, you brought it up and it's really
not that bad. And it's you learn not to have to do it a couple of
times you learn not to be well let's mistake
Adam Curry: Let's recall the history of podcasting The reason
Okay, so here's what happened. I come from radio, you walk into
the studio, it's top of the hour gotta go boom, alright, you
start you go, you roll you broadcast. With podcasting. We
did not have the equipment, the processing, the I mean, we had
musicians, mixers, but that's pretty much all that we had. So
it was very complicated, you know, back in the day, before
everyone knows how to do a mix minus we did the magical double
ender. So I'm going to talk to you and I think it was maybe
Skype in the beginning and with the quality was so bad. that you
eat everyone record each on their own side, and then you
meld those two together. Then we created a whole industry where
people record and then we have like these you know Phil Spector
Wall of Sound people to whole new category come in and, and
they're the podcast editor. And then of course, from that we got
people chopping out the herbs and the arms and the stutters
and editing and for my money, completely taking the life out
of a podcast. But it's was really a technical reason that
we were all doing post production. And now there's
enough gear out there that everybody can do with live
productions is really just a mindset. But also, when you
bring the listening audience in, and it's always just a studio
audience. It's always a subset, but it really brings energy into
every podcast, it's amazing how much energy it brings in.
Dave Jones: Agreed? Yeah, when does what is your? How does your
CES, what are you doing? If you can reveal anything about it?
Are they are you spinning up sort of live icecast type
servers are on demand? How are you making that work?
Alberto: Okay, so that's also possibly the current friction we
are having in terms of usage, we are not dealing with that part
yet. We are not. So you have to find your own. You have to, to
have your own server to the interface makes it super easy.
You just click go on air, but you have to schedule this live
episode, you have to paste the URL of the RTMP server.
Dave Jones: Okay, okay. So you're saying that might be some
of the some of the resistance maybe because it's, it requires
that extra step? Yes.
Alberto: But we thought about that we thought about a chant.
And really the, the, the issue is that possible is a brand new
product really, you you would want for these to take off and
to be used massively, a one stop shop a product where you can
even record video. So your video, you have the streaming
server, and you have everything behind the scenes, and you just
click a button and you go on air. That's why where when we
had to decide whether to launch a good decent support for late
in our UI. Or really launched a one stop shop in, in one year
from now. We thought we would launch something smaller, but
sooner to start, you know, educating and giving awareness
providing this this tool for everyone, I have to say we we
were courageous in our UI, in our opinion, because, you know,
we have one big orange button in our dashboard, which said until
recently, new episode. Now it's just called New when you think
you have episode or Live episodes. So that's, that's our
was our, our attempt to educate users. That now is the Live
episode is one of the two options. And it's a big choice
for us, we never touch these very important parts of our
finance. So yeah, we have a long, long way to go. But we are
much better place than other hosting companies that do not
offer this kind of support or don't make the UI easy. So
prices are tested product market fit in the short term. And still
we are going to keep building, how are
Adam Curry: you marketing this? I mean, how can we assist? How
can we help with that? How can we help people see what this is?
Well,
Alberto: the way we market all of our features, usually we we
tend to create content obviously in our blog and knowledge base.
In our knowledge base. We have for instance a very detailed but
simple how to that includes this spinning up a server with a with
a service that offers one hour for free. But really when we see
people understanding the future is when we offer workshops, and
I'm not saying you have to you know to hold a workshop, but for
instance yesterday we had a workshop on value for value and
we'd fountain and it was pretty good. So workshops and these
kinds of live events that then we can send as the recordings.
They help a lot uptaken of features. So we didn't do
anything yet because we launched it less than one month ago.
Adam Curry: I guess just getting started. Yeah. Yes.
Dave Jones: I think it's so important that to me live is one
of the most important things about podcasting 2.0 Even if not
a whole lot of people use it right now. Because it it shows
that RSS can be the can be just as powerful the distribution
mechanism as YouTube or anything else. Like it. Absolutely. It
puts RSS on On par with, with every other proprietary platform
Unknown: Brian keeps them from from capturing maybe is a better
way to look at it, at least from our perspective, what we don't
want is people capturing or closed companies capturing
aspects of podcasting that could have been open as we moved
faster. Yeah. So that's, that's one of the reasons why we
definitely went after lit. I mean, we do see so much value
potential in doing this, and and listen early days, you're right.
It's early days, we still have more features to roll out
associated with this product, getting our MTP server
definitely is going to be one of those key moments where we feel
like we turn things up a little bit. And certainly in the works,
I don't want to say soon, but it'll be, you know, the next
step.
Adam Curry: How is how's business in general, if you
don't mind sharing? What are you seeing? Are you seeing churn?
Are you seeing people, new people coming in? What What's
the general overview?
Unknown: Well, so I mean, we have to acknowledge that COVID
was the best thing that happened to podcasting, not only us, but
to the
Adam Curry: COVID, bird flu, bird flu. Fever.
Unknown: But, so definitely, that was unprecedented growth.
But we I mean, the whole, the whole concept of podcasting is
still, you know, in its growth phase, we're still continuing to
see a lot of uptake. International, here in the US. I
mean, we as a company are very happy with how we're doing, we
continue to grow, we continue to do the best we can to attract
new users keep those that are around. And, yeah, I mean,
certainly, it's, it's, it's good to be us, because we feel like
we're doing a really good job at satisfying what demand is out
there.
Adam Curry: What do you think of some of the new medium types
that we, you know, slowly, very, very slowly are starting to drip
in audio books, courses, stuff like that? I don't know, if you
provide for any different medium types? What are your thoughts on
that?
Unknown: You know, not not yet. But early on, I remember coming
to Alberta in a meeting saying, Man, we just, let's do
audiobooks. Those are so great. Like I love a good audio book.
And so we've looked at that, having the medium tag that would
designate that and allow for a better UI, I think is fantastic.
Is it in our roadmap now? No, no matter how excited I get about
something, I was really good at keeping the course really
straight and true. But yeah,
Alberto: yeah. So there was a moment in which we ban we
thought we should just launch music, you know, we should just
adopt and accept music as well as a format. But then, when you
step back, we, we actually had the brainstorming with our
product. person in our diner, we sat down. And really, it meant
changing the main workflow that onboards our users prior to
them, signing up for a plan. And it's, it's an important step and
pass music, for instance, could have complications in different
jurisdictions, especially foreign jurisdictions. So I
just, yeah, Ben was much more excited than me. Because I was
already thinking about the issues. That's the problem. My
problem is when Ben comes with these ideas, they are great. But
then or anything, okay, I'm gonna change the funnel, or
we're gonna lose users. So I let's say sometimes he's top
down and bottom up so
Dave Jones: long in the US call you a Debbie Downer Debbie
Alberto: was party pooper. But
Unknown: I don't I don't want anybody to get the impression
that Alberto is one of those typical type of tech guys that
looks for a reason not to do something. He's 100% on board
and he doesn't temper my enthusiasm until he's spoken
with the team until he's really gathered all the inputs. And and
at least half the time, if not more, he's like, yep, doable.
This is how we're going to do it. It's going to be awesome.
And he takes the reins and go so it certainly does add a large
dose of reality to my sort of, you know, Field of Dreams, but
he doesn't quash any dreams for sure.
Alberto: Yeah, I have to say I haven't coded really for a while
for a long while, because we have everyone in the team is
much better than me. So, you know, but the problem of I think
that I'm a builder at heart. So whatever we talk about, it's
good start from this Adeje standpoint, but when he then put
it down and thinks, Okay, what's the next step? That's a reality
check. And that that's that layer or sometimes between Ben
and I.
Dave Jones: Yeah, there's always that tension between when you're
when you're, when you're a developer or builder coder, you
want to build things. But then there's a tension with is this.
Is it realistic? Oh, like, what? Step two? How do we connect this
to the thing that we're already doing? Like, there's all these
things that temper the the excitement?
Adam Curry: We understand that relationship day very well.
Dave Jones: Basically, yeah. Adams, like, let's do it, you
know, like,
Adam Curry: nine times out of 10 gave goes, Okay.
Alberto: What what I do, what I do is I, when this happens, I
add card, a task in the backlog that now is probably is going to
be completed in 2029. So I tell Ben, yeah, we put it in the
backlog. We're gonna get back to
Adam Curry: this in the backlog. Yeah. That's
Unknown: how Adam ended up 10 years in the future is his
backlog? That's right. Yes. Right.
Dave Jones: Yeah. That's right. To Do List. Yes. It's the
magical to do list.
Adam Curry: I mean, I literally had a podcast network that I
should have been able to sell the Spotify, but I was exactly
10 years too early.
Dave Jones: Yeah, you're in the wrong the wrong time. Just
Unknown: wait till Coca Cola and all the rest of the advertisers
get ahold of your minutes idea. And they start paying listeners
in Satoshis to not skip the ads. It's going to be one of those
things that that'll happen. That's a very,
Adam Curry: that's a very interesting point. What
Dave Jones: did you think about this, I read Adweek had a thing,
an article this week about Time Magazine, dropping their
paywall, and this whole the whole podcasting relationship to
advertising in relation to the broader market, and have been
your, you know, your business guy you love economics and
business stuff. And I just wonder, like, I think what we
saw with Spotify is fine with their earnings when they're
finally turned profitable, was that it was very clear that they
just make so much more money off subscribers, and then they do
off advertising. Advertising is a very small part of their
overall revenue. And, like I was reading this article about Time
Magazine and dropping their paywall, and it said, this quote
stuck out to me said the time model cannot be easily
replicated. It has the benefit of billionaire ownership, which
provides a financial buffer that few others enjoy. It also has
more than century of accrued brand equity, which has enabled
it to branch into lines of business like events,
franchises, and awards which draw much of their appeal from
the authority of its logo. And I just thought like, because it
said that ad they dropped their subscription, excuse me their
pipe paywall model and we'll try to beef up advertising but
advertising is really only grown like 14%. So low, very low
double digit it
Adam Curry: didn't didn't New York Times just announced
they're going to put their podcast behind a paywall.
Unknown: Yeah, that was the that was in the news. Yeah, yeah,
Dave Jones: that seems to be like a, like a dual strategy of
like the daily there pay walling the archive, which nobody ever
listens to anyway. And then with cereal, they're windowing. So
they're doing an initial paywall for a few days and then
releasing, releasing it out there. So New York Times and
Times New York Times is doing sort of the opposite of what
time is doing. They're going all in on their subscription.
paywall stuff. Time is opening it up. And I just, it seems in
both, to ME TIME magazine seems to be able to do that. Based on
the fact that like this thing said they have billionaire
ownership, they really don't have to have their their
business is not threatened. If they don't make if they don't
make their their revenue targets. New York Times doesn't
really have that luxury. So the New
Adam Curry: York Times is a bonanza because no one's paying
for news. They're paying for Wordle. Literally, it's
literally it's it's it's funded by Wordle. That's how the New
York everyone knows it. It's the big joke in the news business.
Dave Jones: By no you don't do No, you don't do ad, you don't
you know, you're not an advertising focused hosting
company. But I mean, do you have thoughts on where that where the
whole advertising model is right now? Well,
Unknown: let me jump in and say that the revenue model really is
or should be dictated by the cost structure. So if you're
Time magazine and you have, you know, 500 Reporters across the
world that you're paying salary and health benefits to you
You're, you're gonna need a different cost structure revenue
sort of model than, then, you know, a little podcast hosting
company like us. So how they choose to pivot would have the
benefit of the financial models that they can build that say,
okay, look, this is what we know we can do in the market. And
this is what we know, you know, based on our best projections,
this attrition rate or what have you the CPM model. And I think a
lot of companies don't bother to do the math, they just kind of
say, Listen, we've been around for 80 years, and, you know,
revenue keeps declining, let's try something new and spice it
up and go and keep our revenue model the same. And, you know,
how do we drive subscriptions? But I don't want to say that one
is, is better than another, it just depends on where's the
money going, once it comes in? And how fast does it go out. And
each company is going to have a different sort of thing. So like
the New York Times model, it's really cool in my mind that
they're able to segment their buyers, and maybe squeeze a
little bit more money out of people that find a lot of
benefit. And in being the first to know you know, the next
episode and serial or, or go back and listen to the daily for
whatever reason, they would do that. And so each each listener
or each listener kind of segment is going to have different
aspects and different values to the to the people creating the
content. So I don't think there's a best that can be like
a blanket, I think it's very unique to prove they attracted
to use their product, and out of those people prefer to pay. So
some, some people may prefer to pay with their time and
attention and not with their wallet. So they're going to be
better for advertisers. Other people prefer not to pay with
their time and attention. They prefer to pay with their wallets
and get straight to the you know, the nuts. So I think
there's just different segments. And it's smart as a business to
look at those segments and say, How can we give them exactly
what they want? And they can give us exactly what they need
to so it's a value for value model, but not in the good
sense. It's, it's more than just the I'm sorry, Adam to have like
blasting that term. But, you know, it is kind of like, well,
how are they wanting to return the value? And for some people,
it's time and attention and not, you know, subscription is
Adam Curry: just arsis.com offer subscription solutions?
Unknown: You mean, like private, private podcast? Yeah. No, we
haven't gotten into I mean, it's on the roads and the backlog
since backlog
Adam Curry: is 2029. I mean, there's just no doubt that the
end particularly in in the economy, which we discussed
earlier, multiple subscriptions is just very, very, is gonna be
very challenging, very competitive. Look at the
streaming services. Yeah, it's very competitive, very hard to
make it profitable.
Unknown: Yeah, and people try that bundle. And it doesn't
work. Typically. I mean, there's yeah, there's a lot of angst, I
think. And, but But again, it goes, it goes to me anyway, it
goes like to the infrastructure supporting the money making
business, and sometimes those people have built out too much,
they're not nimble enough to, to, you know, limit their size
or to get new technologies that can allow them to do more with
less, it's just, but that's what it's going to take in this
economy for
Dave Jones: sure. What I've noticed recently is we watch a
lot of YouTube, and just different shows. And the the ad
load on YouTube is just unbearable, it is just
unbearable. Like, yeah, that they seem to be forcing. I don't
know any other way to think about it, other than they seem
to be forcing you to go into a subscription. Because it's, it
is. I mean, when people complain about the volume of ads on
radio, if you if you add up the number of ads you're seeing on a
typical 20 to 30 minute minutes of YouTube. Oh, it's It's on?
It's just unwatchable. Almost. Yeah, yeah. Every time. You
Unknown: added the right word, right. At the end of their day,
almost. I mean, they have like, to the millisecond determined
what someone's tolerance level is, and they take you right up
to that limit. So that's why that's why you're still watching
those YouTube videos is the but as a collective, I mean, not you
in particular, but they do watch and they do understand, like,
oh, this person abandoned, like, we did that too much. Let's dial
it back a little bit. And they, they're so good. I guess
extracting as much as they can for their own purposes, but they
extract as much as they can without losing people.
Dave Jones: It's just it's so it's so so Dick. I mean, that's
the mindset. You have to have to go do something like that is
how, how much can we annoy our audience? Oh, yeah. With us, but
they don't, but not so much that they leave. It's
Unknown: matchmakers. Yeah. It's awful. Yeah.
Dave Jones: But I don't want that to happen. I just said,
Then I said, then the sort of like the juxtaposition of that
was, my wife listens to the Dana Gould, our he's a comedian,
podcast. And she sent me an episode of that she's like,
here, you're like this. Some this got to do with like, the
CIA and stuff. So she sent it to me. And then I asked her listen
to it. And he in within the first minute, he's like, you
know, we don't do ads. per se, yeah, we're, we're, essentially
value for value just goes, you know, go take out a
subscription. If you think it's if you liked the show, help us
out that way. We stay ad free done. It was like 15 seconds.
And then you don't let us know. It's not a single ad and the
rest of the show and it was glorious. And I went and
immediately gave the guy money. It was like, yeah.
Adam Curry: That's how it works. Yes. Are you guys doing music
hosting at all? Or is that also in the backlog?
Unknown: It's not something we're targeting? I'm sure every
podcast host out there hosts music without knowing their
hosting? No, it's not. I mean, again, it's on the backlog. We
would love to do what you guys have done in merged, you know,
value for value. And music? I think it is the future, I think
it's the way to go. I think it's still early days. And for us to
put resources towards it is difficult. You know, our pet
project is Mexico. And that's where our resources go. We're
kind of in that sort of where can we just add dollars to see
what happens that definitely like, like we mentioned before,
I was so up on music. But the implementation and the kind of
the day to day that takes over within the company kind of keeps
us from
Adam Curry: and remote remote items for people who want to add
music to their podcast.
Alberto: Yes, that that can be done sooner than later. Music
also had a compliance issue, meaning for example, I'm based
in Spain, you have to pay a license. So it's very unclear
how to deal with it. on an international level at the
moment, it's kind of, it's kind of, it's something we want to
do. But because we have so many things on our plate, it's really
a matter of choosing the priority of what we what we are
gonna do. Like these months alone, in the past 30 days, we
launched our UI for for lead. We launched padrone full support.
Nice. And yeah, and today, we launched for example, a brand
new a major upgrade of our web player, so that we can show
podcasting 2.0 chapters.
Adam Curry: Tell us tell us about their full screen when
Alberto: the idea was bent. So perhaps you want to first
Adam Curry: of all, Ben, how did how did you get it out of the
infamous backlog and get it into production?
Alberto: Because it was easy
Unknown: enough? Yes. And then it started a year ago. I mean,
of course,
Alberto: it was fun last year, this idea? Yeah. Yeah. So
Unknown: I just really, I mean, in listening to you guys, and
kind of envisioning what, what Todd Cochran called Super
chapters, I could just envision so much more information.
December dissemination via these chapters. And so I was talking
about the look, listen, we've we've got to be the, the, we've
got to have a player that can do what we know that super chapters
can do. And so getting those in there, and making it so it can
be like a slideshow, it can be like, a good storytelling, it
can, I mean, the number of comedy skits that, you know,
rely on one image or two images are pretty, you know, large and
so, I mean, that just, there's so many possibilities, and it
was just taking so long, I'm like, oh, better, let's just
let's implement this. We've got to eat our own dog food. The way
that we do this is with improving the embedded player.
So yeah, just released today. So tell
Adam Curry: me about because of course, I think it was Daniel J.
Lewis, who coined the term super chapters and it may mean
different things to different people. What is super chapters
two, you
Unknown: know, so yeah, they're the podcasting 2.0 chapters. I
mean, just in putting it in a term and maybe it was down Jay,
listen, not Todd. I give Todd a lot of credit for stuff that he
probably never said or did
like the guru, so
Alberto: I want to give you a Latin Latin class super top in
my opinion, but I call When I saw the term super chapter being
used in different contexts, like Superman, like, you know, great
chapters are, but really super comes from Latin, which means
above. And the super chapters for me, defines podcasting 2.0
chapters in in that they are a JSON file that is on top of the
audio and is not embedded in the audio, which gives a lot of
advantages. You don't have to update the audio file. Audio
files are lighter compared to the ID three. So super charter
in my own definition is from Latin above the chapter. Okay,
Adam Curry: that's I'll take it. I like it. I like it. Daniel J.
Lewis won't like it. And Todd Cochran is scratching his head
altogether. Like what how did I get into this?
Dave Jones: What it Where's an exempt? I'm trying to find an
example. What how do you find the play The
Adam Curry: Super chapters? The play the web player? You
Dave Jones: mean the player? Yeah, yeah, I
Adam Curry: won't. Because you have to have a podcast you can
get started for free. No credit card required.
Dave Jones: Where's the like?
Unknown: Better has a he's got an example podcast that we can
say, Well, we,
Alberto: yes, we create. We bought a domain. It's called
podcasting. innovation.com It redirects to a podcast, we host
that we just launched very short episodes that we are gonna use
to illustrate the possibilities of podcasting, and mainly
podcasting 2.0 features, so we just launched it. So in tune to
help our users understand really what it means. So yes, if you go
to podcasting innovation.com first episode, you can just play
fullscreen. Okay, I'm looking at Finnish shines with desktop,
whereas in mobile phones, the experience is closer to modern
podcast apps. Yes. But in desktop, you have a clickable
link so you can use it in many ways. It's just a way hopefully,
we even we would see an uptick in the use of podcasts.
intrapreneur chapters, that's our main goal. And
Dave Jones: I've been encouraged by, you know, podcast apps, like
pocket casting in adopting, getting getting on board with
adopting some of these, you know, some of the features
because, you know, when, I mean, we gotta be honest, when when a
big one a big podcast app with that many users, when they put
the feature in it just like, right, they lifts all boats. So
it's a big, it's a big deal has been very encouraging to see
that in a city like for them supporting chapters, and pod
paying. And, you know, they've been talking about value for
value for a long time and then putting that in place. I mean,
that's it. I feel like it's just going to make every it's just
going to make these things sort of standard so they're not there
they're not considered experimental anymore because
they're really not I mean, we're some of these features are four
years on and they're just they're just solid now this is
not beta stuff.
Adam Curry: This looks nice guys. I'm looking at the the
full screen web player that's really pretty. It looks really
pretty. Yeah,
Dave Jones: it does look like a slight it does look like a
PowerPoint like a slideshow. Yeah, and
Unknown: I can work first iteration. Yeah, I was gonna say
the first iteration it just wasn't enough slides. I'm like I
need more I need more images more chapters more and more
chapter in they humored me in Alberta of course agreed that it
just it needed to really kind of fly they
Adam Curry: put some animated GIFs in there man
Dave Jones: step up your your draft Scott
Adam Curry: goes crazy with that stuff. He's putting animated
GIFs in his stuff is flying around.
Unknown: I do love I do love the awesome art changed when I
listen here on on the podcast. Food I use these a pod verse is
he's a nowadays but yeah, it's
Adam Curry: okay. Well, let's do an awesome change as we take a
little display song. Yeah. All right now remember everybody use
a modern podcast app to boost the artists so that they feel
the love let them know that you heard it on podcasting. 2.0
pulled this one out of the value verse. This is Tim Asch had to
let you go on podcasting 2.0
Unknown: started out just like the fairy tales and movies
always said it should
everything was picture perfect no deny in everything was good.
But the winds of change blew in the doubt crept in again. In the
seeds love Jesus. Had to lead you
and lead you I'll
let you go
crazy how old memories can feel just like they happened
yesterday
and our soul can take you back just some words in the middle of
the night even when the attorney you know that solid just falls
down doesn't matter reinvents faster horses I had to let you
story phase two there's no going back for the world you have to
let you go
to let you
Adam Curry: go think he should probably let that go. Let her go
screaming out for
I don't know what that was. She
Alberto: was upset because he let her go. Yeah.
Dave Jones: I didn't. I didn't hear you come in with the
saxophone on the second call. Yeah,
Adam Curry: really was out.
Alberto: You know, I thought about that. I'm not home. I am
in the office. I thought if I were home, I would just play
something and see if Adam and Dave just you know, my channel.
I next time. Hey, if
Adam Curry: you play something, we're playing it on the show.
Guaranteed. Guaranteed. We know you got recordings we know you
got it there. We know you have it all bets. Oh, come on. Come
on. Man. I
Alberto: have an EP from the early 2000s.
Dave Jones: Was this not been known?
Adam Curry: Good value block, put it on a fee. Come on.
Alberto: To my old band by now. They're still they're still
around, but they are in Italy now. Oh,
Dave Jones: I think you would go to the top of the podcast index
Top Top.
Adam Curry: Top charts. Be right at the top for sure. The Duke
sees
Dave Jones: the Duke silver of hosting companies
so that I think I think, I don't know. I think we're in a we're
in an interesting point. We're trying to get some of these
tags, you know, sort of over the finish line with with with phase
seven. So this is phase seven has been sort of like it's been
really complicated for me trying to write a lot of this stuff up
because it's it's confusing. And I've had to get back and forth
and that kind of thing. But I feel like you know, we said
early on a lot of the easy stuff was was just what it is. I mean,
it's easy. All that stuff came quick. And now we're at the more
the more complicated stuff where we're things are just not as
they don't happen as fast. Do you have any like Alberto, do
you have any any tags or any features that you're really
itching, itching to see put into the to be official
Alberto: So, sorry, to pay seven, we're talking about
polisher and chat. I guess you're
Dave Jones: just anything. I mean, like, do you have anything
that you're that you're really waiting on? Or, you know, a
really excited about that you do you think is not going fast
enough?
Alberto: Well, I I in my in my case, personally, it's something
we didn't discuss directly with, with Ben. But the alternate
enclosure is something that's been there forever. It's not
phase seven, but I think is not used enough. And one thing that
intrigues me is the possibility of having lower quality files
used by phones, which have Kayo s and Paudel. P, we bought a
Kayo s phone with with Ben and try to understand these emerging
markets or more rural area worldwide. And and this is
something that's very interesting for me, because it
looks like a low hanging fruit. And we don't even support it
yet. We told Sam, we would support it. So we have to we
committed, but but really, so if you asked me all the tags,
ultimate enclosure is great. And I can imagine scenarios and use
cases where there are multiple languages. You know, besides
having lower quality or Yes, lower quality lower sides. So
it's less data transfer, I can see multiple scenarios, it looks
to me such a low hanging fruit or boosts files. So I think
that's where we should go next. So
Adam Curry: the pot LP player is really great. I've had contact
with the dev before. And I have somewhere still have my flip
phone that has pot LP, I would say the alternate enclosure and
maybe this is just something we can we can end on is there's a
lot of confusion about YouTube URLs being used in the alternate
enclosure? Any anybody want to tackle that one?
Dave Jones: Well, yeah, this is this is interesting out there,
too. Because you you, you guys, if I'm not mistaken, you allow
Auto Upload into YouTube. So you would have you would have that
code there to be able to pull that out and put into an
alternative enclosure.
Alberto: Absolutely. So I had this conversation with Sam, Sam
Sethi a couple of times really
Adam Curry: long emails, probably very, very long email.
Alberto: Does he also write long emails to you? Okay, okay,
because I told Sam I don't reply because I need them to reply
with a loom video or withstanding it's too many
things. And, you know, now Gmail, with the threat is not so
easy to replace paragraph by paragraph like in the past. So
it's a joke, but it's true. It is. They're very good, though.
Adam Curry: We love you. We love Sam, we love ya
Alberto: know, we do we do.
Adam Curry: We love his books.
Alberto: So on the one hand, I love what true fans is doing. I
am a user of true friends. On the other hand, sometimes, too,
I love what Sam is doing. And I love that sometimes it doesn't
wait, and it just push it out and see what happens. And this
was the case for ultimate enclosure with the URL that
doesn't have really a MIME type. And that's something I brought
up. I mean, if that's implementation, we can build it
in in one hour. Right. But the whole point was was, you know,
a, this is not semantically correct, if you think in strict
terms, and that's what confuses me, sometimes I'm thinking is it
better to break up with the rules at this stage, or to just
try to stick to, to the, with the specs, because we are in
early stage. And so we should figure out a way to, you know,
to prove your specs before it's too late. Another example, I
just bring it up the live the live item tag, you have the
length in there, because the live item tag uses the
economical enclosure tag, it makes a lot of sense. I get it,
but it doesn't make sense to have that attribute in there.
You don't want the length because you didn't know the
duration specifically, but you have to do it, you add it
otherwise, you know, if you don't added length, it doesn't
validate the RSS feed. We had this conversation in Macedon.
And really people are putting 123 We're putting I'm putting I
mean, I talked to you, our engineers, let's put 2018 It was
our funding years. It just doesn't make sense. You know? So
on the one hand, it's okay to put YouTube URLs, but these are
not an include. These are not a no they are a media file. They
are URL so it's kind of a hack. So I wonder if so that's where
I'm torn. That's why I'm saying I appreciate a lot, but I'm
afraid we already deviate from the standards before even having
them At ASCII,
Dave Jones: was it's not because the YouTube embed is under Todd
has been on a mission about this. And I, and I get it, I
just haven't really haven't been able to focus on that very much,
because these are the things. But I think that can't. So the
question is, is it just a Content link? Or is it a, an
alternative closure, if you're, if you're talking about the
YouTube embed code, and to me, it's more than just a link. It's
not just a link it's intended, it's there in the feed, to be
intended to be ingested by the podcast app in some way. So it's
more than just a link. But then also, it's not enough to be
considered an enclosure. So it's really, it's really, I feel like
it is appropriate for it to be an alternate enclosure. But as
long as we have, but we may need to make make a modification to
the spec, to say that these that alternate enclosure can be this
other sort of thing. It can be something, something where you
can say okay, here, here's an alternative enclosure, which is
a web a URI, pointing to a thing, that you as the app are
gonna have to go get an interpret somehow, to do
something special with it. Like I feel like that fits within
alternate enclosure. But it's not just simply a MIME type
issue, because it is a different sort of animal where you're
having, you're saying, okay, the app is going to have to go and
decode this thing into some other thing. I mean, that's the
only way it makes sense to me, it's still it's not because it's
more than just a link.
Alberto: I have not but one thing there is that then Sam
Sethi did it be the right thing? Because he prompted this
conversation by by kind of not breaking the rules, but kind of,
and I think so we can say that whoever dares and try something
different within the community. And he's open about that, maybe
maybe that's a good thing to do. Maybe it's, you know, it starts
this process, because I agree with you that we should
absolutely succinate somehow that tag so that we take into
account the YouTube user user case.
Dave Jones: I think we can just I think we can just tweak the
specs a little bit. And Nathan already has a proposal in there
to to enhance the content link spec. And I think that's also
valid, because you could see it as a link as well. I don't
really care which way it goes. But I think you're I think
you're right. I think between Todd and Sam, having the
conversation is important, because it's not. We are we're
probably going to run into stuff like this in the future as well.
You know, and I know like y'all, because I'm sure you would, if
you had a way forward, you would probably since you already know
the are the YouTube ingestion, you would you know, y'all would
put it in there, but it's just you absolutely know what to put
in there.
Adam Curry: Shall we? Thanks for people.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, sure. There were there. Yes. Yeah,
we're
Adam Curry: our 148. Oh, wow. Okay. Whoa, time flies when
you're with good friends. Hands Across the border friends in
Mexico. Where are you in Mexico? No, you're in Spain, aren't you?
Yeah, Roberto. Where are you again in
Alberto: Barcelona.
Adam Curry: My daughter is in Barcelona right now. I didn't
know. Yeah. If
Alberto: she needs any recommendations or anything.
Just drop a line. Well, thank
Adam Curry: you. That's highly or like a bad signal. She's in
trouble. She's in jail. We get her out. Absolutely. I would. I
love you, brother. Thank you.
Unknown: We're doing a team meeting in Barcelona and a few
weeks. Maybe she can join the team.
Alberto: Around in two weeks. No,
Adam Curry: no, she's only staying for five days. She said
serrulata familia today. Very nice. Which is just so you know,
they're finishing that thing.
Alberto: Yeah, it's I mean, I was there. I went with my
pardons really? Two months ago because I hadn't hadn't gone
since 2003. There. And it's actually done. Yeah, I
Adam Curry: know. Some viewers seen this. Dave. Shakira familia
know what is that? That's the big church slash almost
cathedral that Gaudi started the artists Gaudi and Oh, my you've
got to look it up. It's, it's amazing. I went there with oh
Dave Jones: my gosh, I'm looking at the goodness. I'm looking at
the photographs. How long
Adam Curry: have they been building it? Oberto was like 400
years?
Alberto: Nah, but since the 60s, something like that. I thought
it was much longer
Adam Curry: than that. No,
Unknown: God, Gowdy is pretty recent.
Alberto: Actually, before maybe it's the 30s The 40s I'm bad
because I was there two months ago with the audio guide, and
then listen to the whole thing and I already don't remember If
I guess in the 60s Gaudi died, and he died under a bus I didn't
know Yeah, no, he didn't die. He got hit by a bus. It's crazy.
Adam Curry: Way to go, but even what's the what's that little
village that he built? I went to see that two. What's it called
the park? Well, man, it's amazing. His architecture was
just phenomenal. Really, it's really cool. And I was also at
the familiar cigarette, the Sagrada Familia in 2008 2020.
But I was there. I was in 2002. Where Don't
Alberto: you see just two years ago you said you
Adam Curry: know, last year I was in seat Yes. Yeah. Last year
we went to
Alberto: Yeah, and it didn't go to Sagrada Familia. No, we did.
We did we did and
Adam Curry: that's what I said we did. We also went to familia
Taurus I don't remember much after that. By
Alberto: having cantina to drink wine we could when
Adam Curry: we went Yes, we went to the cantina. You remind me
the song Speedy Gonzales
Alberto: muy muy prosody.
Adam Curry: That's good. It's good. No, it's beautiful.
Barcelona is beautiful. I recommend anybody if you can go
to Barcelona, Barcelona. It's beautiful. Let's thank a few
boosters. We have blueberry 6969 Blueberry says the next steps
for gifs involves building miniature live action sets that
are boost reactive film that then impose GIF puppets over the
top of the set like knit the rat does. One part lit podcasting
one part Southpark styled animations one part Wayne's
World. Whoa, send me a link to see that. Deal with this is some
crazy work. This is when you unleash it on people. This is
what happens. I got to check out what Nick the rat is doing. br
Since 1000 SATs hook tie says this right slipped it in there.
You guys don't know what that is, but it's a viral sensation.
Call McCormick 20 to 22 Row ducks these board meetings are
powerful go podcasting we will spurious Tom spurious, Tom. Do
we know spurious, Tom?
Dave Jones: I've never seen that. Well spurious, Tom.
Adam Curry: Welcome to the family 777. That's what hit the
harp earlier long, loving the live podcast he says 1000 SATs
from Sam Sethi. I guess he figured out how to refresh and
got our live stream. He says this is regarding e cash. We are
doing something similar in true fans with virtual wallets and
the W three C web payment standard. They're gonna go look
at that now.
Dave Jones: Web payment is the mean like web monetization.
Adam Curry: Obviously, he's got a URL, which is W
three.org/payments/w G and let's see what this is. Forbidden. Why
am I seeing this? Your access to the site was blocked by
wordfence.
Dave Jones: Let's go okay. With payments overview.
Adam Curry: I got I got caught while I'm here to see if I do
around here. Here we go. Web Payments. March 2020. The
working group working group.
Dave Jones: Okay, so it's not a actual standard and
Adam Curry: not yet they're working on. Okay. Back to our
boost. Chris, Chris last Chris LA's 10,000 10,000 SATs. Peg.
Yes. Very stoked. You guys are looking into this Ecash stuff.
I've been thinking for months. This could be a better
experience for listeners and podcasters definitely down to
help test this with the Jupiter broadcasting show. Ah, he says
that should be shows probably. Definitely Chris. Well, that's
the beauty of the value block is you can put any kind of payment
mechanism in there. So I guess we just add it and it says hey,
this we just have to figure out how to transport it but I'm glad
you're all in buddy. I'm glad you're in we need we need that
help. Now Jean Everett 3333 He says E cash is trash
unfortunately. So there's the other side of the coin. He
doesn't say why but I'd love to know why it's trash. So
Unknown: it rhymes and so
Adam Curry: clearly with is 1776 from salty crayon how the board
room you know the economy is trash when Hooters has close to
has to close 333 locations. Magic number good thing. My note
is running 24/7 The sweet sound of Satoshis thanks to our
producers in the 2.0 verse go podcast thing. Nope. Then we
have that 169 691 From blueberry and I will mention again. It's
the satellite skirmish. It's lit in the app on Sunday at four
central Stephen B and Eric peopIe have transformed the
split kit into something magical check Get out at live is lit.com
and then 100 SATs from Sam just let us know we couldn't hear the
show, but we fixed that. Let me see 100 SATs from Nunya business
who just says Hey, back at you, Jeremy. 15 333 ITM? Oh, that's
where we're sorry. But you have skipped over that one. And then
I'm at the delimiter. No,
Dave Jones: like, we don't have we have zero pay pals for the
week.
Adam Curry: Value for value, everybody.
Unknown: The biggest mistake you guys made was saying how much
you had in the bank I'll bet on are like, Well, okay, they're
well enough funded. We don't need to send anything in.
Dave Jones: transparency for the loss? Yes.
Unknown: Yeah. But we'll fund your trips. I mean, you guys go
meet up giving it back rubs on the beach. We'll fund that.
Dave Jones: says, Yeah, we the point of point of note, be less
transparent. Okay, gotcha.
Adam Curry: How much? How much are we paying a month? Dave? To
Dave Jones: the hosting?
Adam Curry: Yeah. What are
Dave Jones: our total costs? 720.
Adam Curry: It's about 120. About 1200 bucks a month? I'd
say with the voltage node.
Dave Jones: Yeah. 720 for the for the Linode is 150 for the
voltage.
Adam Curry: So we'll be out of money. Two years. All right.
Keep it up, guys. Keep it up.
Unknown: We'll be sure to Don't.
Adam Curry: Don't send us any value. I understand. That's
right. Maybe we just shouldn't do the show. Just write it out.
Dave. Write it out. Write it out. Write it out. Yes. I'm sad.
No problem.
Dave Jones: As somebody did send us something. Hey, citizens and
as 6969 Please, Adams new album plus plus, we need this.
Adam Curry: I don't think so. By the way, it turns out that song
was 100% Ai.
Dave Jones: No, that's Is it for real? Yeah. Yeah.
Adam Curry: That was for real. But it was it was all AI from
Richard Moses.
Dave Jones: greaser greaser. Yeah, he was
Adam Curry: all God about being played on the on the podcast.
Dave Jones: Well, if, if if you're going to release your
album, then Alberta has to release his app. It's only fair.
Okay. I want to I want to boost Alberto's album, I'm just saying
that's that would be a highlight of my week.
Adam Curry: Why they've got enough money. They don't need to
boost them for any
Dave Jones: money. Take it back. There's women,
Adam Curry: women and money over there. Yeah. They're doing just
what split they don't need to split. They don't need to be
Dave Jones: caring for the minimalist podcast, satchel
Richards. 1111. He says, hit me up with that fat pipe. Okay,
done. Let's see who we get this, we get the delimiter from last
week. Oh, I messed up because? Because I had we were Saturday
last week. Oh, what was the date from what was last Saturday?
Adam Curry: The 22nd. Second was that 22nd? Okay. By the way, you
guys didn't send me a wallet to put in the split.
Alberto: Oh, we forgot. It's okay. No, no, no, I want
Adam Curry: you to feel good. I want to feel good about us
sending your money. Keeping
Dave Jones: burning coals on your head is what it is. There
you go.
Adam Curry: Yes, we will. That's exactly how it works. The
Dave Jones: 22nd was Saturday, how am I gonna get through this
20th area 23rd Auto open a channel. But I still have
concerns about what happens when the node receives more than the
opening 50,000 sets. This is from user 34908002. Okay 2100
sets. He says I don't want a payment to fail. If say trips,
got booths and artists 100,000 sets for a killer song, we would
also need to be sure that there's auto increase on the
channel balance when the payments start coming in. We see
payments fail for many reasons for artists and that is not a
good experience. See this. He's right. And this is or he or she
is right. And this is the reason why I think a mint model makes a
lot of sense. So yeah, just have to make sure that you have
plenty of funding on the back end. I mean, like that's, well,
Adam Curry: if as long as someone funds as long as you
don't touch the funds, the funding is always there. Right?
Dave Jones: So you just oh you're just doing is making
you're no longer doing channel management. You're just making
sure the number is is sufficient. Anyway, the SC chat
F 3333 through fountain he says My biggest takeaway from from
this meeting last week show was ROI. This stuff isn't free to
run and it's not free to operate.
Adam Curry: It's true. That's right. Tried to fix it, trying
to fix it.
Dave Jones: Gee nonnamous 1700 SAS through fountain he says hub
liquidity. I'm greasing the skids a bit at a time Thank you,
from anonymous 5000 SAS through pod verse says sounds
unavoidable that making V for V caveman easy will require some
sort of KYC. If so, should we focus less on the Alby LSP
stuff, and instead have podcast apps try integrating with
lightning enabled exchanges like river or cash app. It feels like
we're letting self sovereign goals get in the way of
onboarding listeners, it was drinkers not moonshiners who
ended prohibition.
Adam Curry: Good points. And this this solution that we're
looking at actually does both you can be sovereign or you can
be custodial.
Dave Jones: Yeah, and book in the lightning side of things is
not going away. I mean, it's always going to be there. It's
just whatever the podcast or wants to do. That's just the way
that works. I mean, the the lightning podcast value block
will continue to function just like it always has, if that's
what people want. boomy for from malby 51 understands this
channels opening or the KYC process for the self sovereign
person. Yeah, I think we read that one live. Give us a brown
of London. Ancient computers ranged in the long caves deep in
the bowels of the planet take away the dark millennia and the
ages hang heavy on their dusty database Google's polling
computers that's it we read I think we read that one too.
Yeah. But that's on the date on this is the 23rd How's that
impossible
Adam Curry: he's in a different timezone. This is from the
source Yes, it's from the from the Holy Land.
Dave Jones: Yeah, this is getting confusing me. Pod home
8000 SATs through podcasts guru says Hey, guys, so for medium
equals course an audio book, just tell apps what it is so
that the apps can for instance, display episodes oldest to
newest if that's not set in the feed and maybe change episode to
lecture and so on? Yeah, I think it would be great to set some
guidelines for mediums and namespace spec just to help apps
interpret them the same so I think he's right because we were
talking about what this course do I
Adam Curry: think we talked about that we just need more
examples right? Which we have we said he has the one example
Yeah, we have one example already Yeah. So the leader
Dave Jones: like with our says like with what y'all are doing
with our with the embedded chapters in the player? What you
sort of like a presentation style. I could see that I mean,
I can see that player being a sort of like course experience
Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah. Where he watched Yeah, very much so
Dave Jones: yeah, like good luck when those online academy type
things that would be that would be pretty rockin once told Kyle
2222 through podcasts good graces missed you guys glad
you're ready to ride the lightning again. Pot berry pot
home came through 6100 SATs again he says also my audio
courses are free courses an audio books can be paid products
true fans of course has a feature for that
Adam Curry: as good true fans as it has implemented everything.
Yeah,
Dave Jones: they have a feature for everything.
Alberto: Sam just put on LinkedIn that they support live
events 20 minutes ago.
Adam Curry: Oh, that's another thing we got to we got to look
at.
Dave Jones: Oh, this see live events
Adam Curry: with owning ticket tickets. Yeah. Ticketing.
Dave Jones: Comic Strip blogger UPS delimiter. Comic Strip
blogger 25,000. Sets the fountain says, Edie fellow meat
bags animal
Adam Curry: meat bags.
Dave Jones: Singularity is Near. So I'm launching soon weekly
comic strip about AI singularity at WWW dot singularity dot
Express. But in meantime, I invite your audience to visit my
daily cartoons at WWW dot CSV dot lol. Yo CSV.
Adam Curry: Thank you CSB. I'm glad I'm glad you were here. I'm
always smiling when he shows up. Always lovely. Monthly,
Dave Jones: and that's from that's from Oh, yeah, we got
some let's see. We got we got Jordan Dunnville $10 Thank you,
Jordan. Michael Kimmerer $5.33 Dred Scott, Bruce Wayne is
podcasting. $15 and Patreon gone calvess $5. Well,
Adam Curry: Dave, I think we should just empty out the bank
account and I should go on a little vacation. Go look at
that. Yeah, go look at Yeah,
Unknown: so So I took advantage of the little interlude here and
we smashed that like button on the podcast index.org In
donation.
Adam Curry: Day we shamed him into a beautiful, beautiful,
beautiful red.
Dave Jones: I'm checking I'm checking it. Lucas. Adam.
Adam Curry: Oh, yes. Dave.
Dave Jones: Been in Alberta from rss.com Send us $1,200 Wow.
Unknown: 20 is Blaze. Oh man, Paul.
Oh, you should have told us you should have told us that the
monthly expenses was 20,000.
Dave Jones: We're dying over here. We're kidding. We're
getting to a
Adam Curry: reminder that Adam and Dave take nothing out of out
of this furniture. We leave everything on the note
everything the bank account and we appreciate your support
monetarily, but also just You're the you're in the game that
you're doing it you're it's always a delight to have you
guys on even though Roberto is a, you know, a tech guy. He's
very, very sunshiny. He's always he's always always upbeat,
always exciting. You guys are great. You really are. And, and
I hope I keep sending enough customers your way. I try and
say yeah, try and send you the big guys. One other thing. I'm
sorry. Yeah, Adam.
Unknown: Sorry. Just anytime anybody from the Austin area
comes into the podcast transfer portal. I tell them it's direct
from you. I don't ever confirm that with you. But I always tell
the team Hey, VIP treatment for this guy. This guy. This guy's
definitely coming from Adam. There's some
Alberto: DSTV we had to be nap. No machines do import the
podcast from Austin with 5000 episodes. Wow. And we did it. We
did.
Adam Curry: Well, I'm glad I sent that person to you. I can't
remember who it was. Sure. Sure it came from I'm sure. Todd did
something really nice, which I thought was just lovely. I'll
use that word. I've talked about that podcast device that this
guy Fernando makes the audio sigma. Yeah. Which is I have no
commercial interests or anything otherwise in that other than I
wish this is what I tried to build in 2015. No, before the
2014 Maybe. Yeah, was a long time ago. It's the price is
great is a great device. It's pod father approved, you can do
live stuff shows with it. And I think Todd is making him a
partner or something so they can offer that to their customers.
It just beautiful. So do you guys offer any any gear advice
to your customers?
Unknown: No. In fact, I was going to ask you if we can buy
some of your your gear because we got to send it down to
Mexico. We're opening up our studio down there. And they keep
saying, hey, we need this piece of equipment and that piece of
equipment. You should take
Adam Curry: a look. You should take a look at this audio sigma
thing is audio sigma.com.com. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's
definitely
Unknown: interested.
Adam Curry: It's really a pod mobile. That's what it's called.
Alberto: But I saw it last week when you mentioned it. I was
working in Barcelona, close to the Sagrada Familia, and you're
speaking and so I have time to look at it. It's very nice. And
you, we also you said that, you know, you could also give it to
your own users, meaning we could give to our users is not a bad
idea with some plans or some Yeah, patient workshop. That's
not a bad idea at all.
Adam Curry: You know, they have the he has the single microphone
version, which is, what does it call the, let me see, it's the
mic hero at and that that I mean, these things are amazing,
because you can plug it right into your phone, and it powers
from the phone. And then the phone immediately recognizes it
as a device that you can use. And the end, the two mic version
has an expansion port, so you can hook up another one. So if
you had more people or more more mics needed, you can connect
them. It's, I like this guy because he came from Brazil with
100 bucks in his pocket to America. And he's just, he's
just grinding away and he's, you know, he orders like 50 at a
time to be made. So he's, I just want to make sure he's
highlighted in our, in our world because, again, if I I tried to
build this and I failed, I failed on price I filed I failed
on everything. It's very hard to do, but it's a great is I think,
Dame Jennifer Baldwin, she was thinking about it. Nice is
really
Unknown: put his wallet in for our split today.
Adam Curry: You guys. Thank you, Ben and Oberto from rss.com You
guys rock. We really appreciate all that you do. And Have
yourselves a great weekend. Thank you. All right. All right,
Brother Dave. Yes,
Dave Jones: sir. Have a great weekend. You too, man. All
right, and PSA, you know, I'm going to be going next next to
shows. You know, I'm gonna be unless I'm flying out next
friday. Well, we may try to do something before I leave or, or
what?
Adam Curry: Ah, you mean like a Thursday night type thing? Yeah,
I don't know. We could try something. I'd hate to have to
show two board meetings gone in a row. Let's see. We can do it.
I mean, everybody's everybody deserves vacation. Even you Dave
Jones.
Dave Jones: No, I don't deserve
Adam Curry: We'll let you know. We'll advertise it will
broadcast. Thank you boardroom. Thank you for being here. We'll
see you very soon on podcasting 2.0
Unknown: GDD Hope You have been listening to podcasting 2.0
Visit podcast index.org For more information,
Adam Curry: go podcast. Now that's hot