1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,800 Adam Curry: Podcasting 2.0 for September 20, 2024, episode 194, 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:10,980 it's a freak off Friday. Hello everybody. It is Friday once 3 00:00:10,980 --> 00:00:15,720 again. And boy, we are in a good mood because Fridays are always 4 00:00:15,780 --> 00:00:19,020 good days. It is time for the one and only board meeting of 5 00:00:19,020 --> 00:00:22,880 podcasting. 2.0 itbr, everybody's in the boardroom. We 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,360 are, in fact, the only boardroom that will never send a message 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,300 to your pager, I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas 8 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:32,720 Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who climbs big rocks, he 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,380 drinks his beef and delights audiences all over the world say 10 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:39,140 hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr. Dave 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:41,380 Jones, 12 00:00:42,579 --> 00:00:45,999 Dave Jones: man, the the beef milkshake today is just not. 13 00:00:45,999 --> 00:00:49,299 It's just not happening. It's not. You're not feeling it. It's 14 00:00:49,299 --> 00:00:51,459 it's not. There's no beef in it. That's the 15 00:00:51,460 --> 00:00:54,940 Adam Curry: problem. What do you just have chocolate powder or 16 00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:57,760 what? That doesn't sound right? No, 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,640 Dave Jones: it's like. So I got this new I got a new flavor. I 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,580 like, branched out away from the chocolate and went with the 19 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:09,960 vanilla. Yeah, and it's just No, it's not good. Vanilla 20 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,040 Adam Curry: beef just doesn't sound good to me. So not good. 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,360 Vanilla beef, 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,300 Dave Jones: it is not good. And so I've like, I'm just trying 23 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:24,320 to, like, I tried to force it in, and it wasn't happening. So 24 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:28,820 now I'm just, I'm just have whey protein, and then, and then I 25 00:01:28,820 --> 00:01:32,060 tried to put, like, something in there to spice it up. Because, 26 00:01:32,060 --> 00:01:38,300 just because I the milk I use for it is this, like, low sugar, 27 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:43,300 you know, milk that's been and so it's like, high, it's like a 28 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:48,820 high protein milk, yeah, so I go the high protein milk creatine, 29 00:01:49,540 --> 00:01:50,320 and 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,460 Adam Curry: you got cretin, cretin I got, 31 00:01:54,579 --> 00:02:00,359 Dave Jones: I got cretins in my shake. And then I got some, just 32 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:03,479 some whey protein isolate in there. And, like, none of that 33 00:02:03,479 --> 00:02:06,179 has any flavor whatsoever, because you've even taken the 34 00:02:06,179 --> 00:02:09,719 sugar out of the milk, yeah? So it just tastes like drinking 35 00:02:09,719 --> 00:02:11,939 chalk. And here's, 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,480 Adam Curry: you know, what you could do to spice it up, little 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:21,180 bit of bourbon. Just, just for the board meeting, yeah? Just 38 00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:23,960 for the board meeting. Just for the board meeting, just for the 39 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,120 board meeting. Just little nip babies. No problem. 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,180 Dave Jones: Nip from the putt from the pocket flask, yep. 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:31,640 Adam Curry: Oh man, 42 00:02:32,419 --> 00:02:36,259 Dave Jones: I put, what I did was I put a I put a yogurt in 43 00:02:36,259 --> 00:02:40,599 there with it and shit, and blended that up. And that's not 44 00:02:40,659 --> 00:02:44,319 what I thought it was gonna be. No, no, it's even worse. Now I'm 45 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:45,819 just like, forcing it down. 46 00:02:46,420 --> 00:02:49,780 Adam Curry: Oh, nasty. So what you got on your list, brother, 47 00:02:49,780 --> 00:02:52,420 we only have an hour and a half today because you said I got it 48 00:02:52,420 --> 00:02:54,940 hard out, kind of hard out, you know, get back. Can't stay in 49 00:02:54,940 --> 00:02:57,400 the board meeting too long. Got a hard out. It's in summer. 50 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,740 Hours are over. It's done, it's gone, it's toast. 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,740 Dave Jones: It's done. Let's see. What do I have? Well, 52 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:06,600 Adam Curry: maybe I can ask you a question, just because I 53 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,500 didn't understand 54 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,780 Dave Jones: this to my notes, okay, yeah, flip to your notes. 55 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:13,320 Adam Curry: What is the conversation about podcast 56 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,480 images and why don't I understand it? 57 00:03:16,020 --> 00:03:20,720 Dave Jones: That is in my notes, my notes right under making a 58 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:26,060 podcast with Google notebook. LLM, LM, via CSB, yeah, 59 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,840 Adam Curry: which is also fun, yes. Um, yeah. 60 00:03:29,900 --> 00:03:34,160 Dave Jones: So that's, well, I've got which one. What do you 61 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:34,640 want to do? 62 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,799 Adam Curry: You want to talk about images, but whatever you 63 00:03:36,799 --> 00:03:38,119 want, it's up to you. 64 00:03:38,660 --> 00:03:40,600 Dave Jones: What is your understanding of image? Of the 65 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,240 image thing, because this is namespace talk, by the way. Oh, 66 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,500 Adam Curry: and now it's time for some hot names. That's 67 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:53,740 right, we're sizzling up your Friday right off the bat. We're 68 00:03:53,740 --> 00:03:56,320 not waiting. We're not mate, we're not teasing you with the 69 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,780 hot name space talk. We give it to you right away. 70 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,020 Dave Jones: Five minutes in, we're already in the namespace. 71 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,240 This is a record, baby, hot 72 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:04,380 Adam Curry: name, space talk. 73 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:07,920 Unknown: Well, you're selling it now. 74 00:04:08,940 --> 00:04:13,260 Adam Curry: Well, because I saw, you know, I saw a post, and then 75 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:18,720 I saw Stephen B come back and say, Well, I only do, I do 76 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,160 single, not multiple. And then I'm like, I recognize this, 77 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:28,520 because if I go to sovereign feeds, there is a tab for 78 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,620 images, and you can add images, and I've never and for the 79 00:04:33,620 --> 00:04:38,180 episodes for the podcast and and so I'm like, well, maybe it has 80 00:04:38,180 --> 00:04:42,880 something to do with that, that I can add extra images and and 81 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,400 then I was like, You know what? I'm lazy. I'm just gonna ask 82 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:45,700 Dave, 83 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:53,920 Dave Jones: thanks. First of all, I need to kill the oh, 84 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,460 gosh, I've got like 200 tabs open in this browser. This is 85 00:04:57,460 --> 00:05:01,080 gonna crash my computer. This. Trend I gotta get, 86 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:04,320 Adam Curry: I get the, get the jingle ready for you for the 87 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:04,920 boot, yeah, 88 00:05:06,180 --> 00:05:09,240 Dave Jones: successfully closed every time clean feed. 89 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,360 Adam Curry: Now is this Linux that crashes with so many tabs 90 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:18,540 open? Yeah, yeah, because that sounds wrong. Doesn't sound 91 00:05:18,540 --> 00:05:20,160 right. But 92 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,200 Dave Jones: you know, Ubuntu with a lightning Node running, 93 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,940 you know, in 27 containers is, I mean, it's not the most stable 94 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:32,900 thing in the world. So, okay, you know, I mean, the whole 95 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:37,820 computer doesn't crash. It's more like the the windows crash 96 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:40,240 the window manager. But, um, 97 00:05:41,260 --> 00:05:44,260 Adam Curry: oh, because that's totally okay. Yeah, 98 00:05:44,260 --> 00:05:46,240 Dave Jones: it's fine. It's just like, it's like, your rodecaster 99 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,440 Having to reboot it. It's fine. 100 00:05:48,460 --> 00:05:50,920 Adam Curry: It's all Linux, baby, just the drivers. It's 101 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,060 always the drivers. 102 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,080 Dave Jones: It's Linux all the way down. Well, okay, so we've 103 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,480 got, the long and short of it is we have, we have competing 104 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,300 proposals. We have a fight Bruin, uh oh, 105 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:08,040 Adam Curry: a name, nerd fight, namespace fight, nerd fight, 106 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:09,000 nerd fight. 107 00:06:10,740 --> 00:06:14,880 Dave Jones: No, it's, uh it's, it's kind of competing 108 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:24,980 proposals, but not really like I think it's so here, here's what 109 00:06:24,980 --> 00:06:32,360 is here. So here's what's going on. We want to add, many people 110 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,140 want to add banners, some sort of idea of a banner image that 111 00:06:36,140 --> 00:06:39,020 Adam Curry: can be used for other for things, for things, 112 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:46,000 Dave Jones: things, yeah. So, you know, like one, one good 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,060 example of social media. Social media needs. They they like 114 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,240 banners. They like you to have you used to it was just like you 115 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,140 had your avatar, right? And you put it on a gravatar or 116 00:06:56,140 --> 00:07:00,220 whatever. Yes, gravity, remember graviton? Sure. I think it's 117 00:07:00,220 --> 00:07:06,060 still, I'm sure, it is. And so you just have an avatar for 118 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:09,360 various things in your social in your social graph. 119 00:07:10,740 --> 00:07:15,120 Adam Curry: Um, just threw up in my mouth. Yes, my social 120 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:17,640 accomplished. Yeah, yeah, well done. Well done. Well played, 121 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:18,000 sir. 122 00:07:18,540 --> 00:07:22,820 Dave Jones: Now you like, I'm not sure which one was the first 123 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:26,540 to do this. Which social context is, what may have been Facebook. 124 00:07:26,540 --> 00:07:29,180 I think Facebook has always had this idea of adding in this 125 00:07:29,180 --> 00:07:33,800 extra thing that's a banner, and so it like goes, sort of like 126 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,940 across the top, so you have your avatar and it's over. It's 127 00:07:37,940 --> 00:07:40,960 laying over this sort of like, fancy banner looking thing, 128 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,120 which would be sort of like, I don't know, like a three, like, 129 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,860 aspect ratio, three to one, four to one type thing, yeah, where 130 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,380 it's pretty, you know, it's long, sort of long and skinny 131 00:07:53,380 --> 00:07:53,740 ish. What 132 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:56,620 Adam Curry: happened to the skyscraper? Remember that 133 00:07:56,620 --> 00:08:01,500 skyscraper? Yeah, the skyscraper was a banner, a vertical banner 134 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:04,560 on the side that was sold to some inventory. Oh, we've got a 135 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,020 skyscraper on the side. Don't you remember those? A banner ad 136 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:12,480 turned rotated 90 degrees. 137 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Dave Jones: Okay, so, so the, I remember the masthead, you know, 138 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,160 image or whatever. But not, I don't know about the skyscraper, 139 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:30,020 so you've got, you've got this idea that that we want to put 140 00:08:30,020 --> 00:08:35,180 into the feed, and this would help with all kinds of things, 141 00:08:35,180 --> 00:08:36,620 like, like pod page, 142 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:38,900 Adam Curry: yeah, for sharing stuff is what we kind of what we 143 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:41,620 were talking about is sending extra stuff along with your feed 144 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:46,660 that can be used in to fill up your MySpace page. Yeah, yeah, 145 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,220 exactly, yeah. 146 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,400 Dave Jones: And, and then, okay, so you can take this farther, 147 00:08:54,880 --> 00:09:02,520 and it has been proposed in in the past, in the issues like two 148 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,100 year two, maybe even three years ago, it was proposed that 149 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:08,040 they're like, that you could, we could implement, like, an 150 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,060 entire, like, style guide, or whatever, inside the the feed, 151 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:18,480 so you have, like, Okay, this, this podcast has this color 152 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,700 palette that it that It always uses for its, you know, right 153 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,420 style. And so you could put that information in there. Well, you 154 00:09:26,420 --> 00:09:29,540 know that that got rid that, then you start to get pretty 155 00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:32,720 dicey, because then the app developers are like, you know, 156 00:09:32,780 --> 00:09:33,140 what are 157 00:09:33,140 --> 00:09:34,640 Adam Curry: you doing to my art? Man, 158 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,680 Dave Jones: yeah, hey, screw you. I'm not gonna, like, let 159 00:09:36,740 --> 00:09:38,180 you style my that's 160 00:09:38,540 --> 00:09:40,420 Adam Curry: not gonna happen. No, yeah. 161 00:09:40,719 --> 00:09:42,939 Dave Jones: And then there's also, there's, there's, there's 162 00:09:42,939 --> 00:09:46,419 the the knee jerk of that, but there's also the, just the 163 00:09:46,419 --> 00:09:54,639 realistic difficulties of, okay, my app uses, my app needs to now 164 00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:57,999 calculate like contrasting colors so it knows what text to 165 00:09:57,999 --> 00:10:01,079 overlay on top of this other thing. Right? Just, it's a big 166 00:10:01,079 --> 00:10:05,699 mess. I mean, it's, it would be great. It in in cons. This is 167 00:10:05,699 --> 00:10:10,739 one of those things that the concept is, is really good. And 168 00:10:10,739 --> 00:10:13,679 you're like, Oh yeah, that would be great. And then, like, the 169 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,659 actual putting in, into into production, becomes this sort of 170 00:10:18,659 --> 00:10:23,119 nightmare of edge cases and difficulties. For an example of 171 00:10:23,119 --> 00:10:28,699 this, see the difficulties that Apple had on Mac OS trying to 172 00:10:28,699 --> 00:10:32,599 get that the menu bar at the top to be 173 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,660 Adam Curry: three color and be consistent, uh huh, and 174 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:38,420 Dave Jones: still be readable. And also that, yeah, even they 175 00:10:38,420 --> 00:10:42,160 couldn't do it right. And they got the best designers ever. So 176 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,840 it's a big mess, so, but that's a side that's a side tangent, so 177 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:54,940 that the matter at hand is the banner stuff. And you can say, 178 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,340 Okay, how could you solve how could you solve that problem? 179 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:06,960 And in asking that question, you've there's been sort of two 180 00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:14,940 ideas proposed, one by Nathan gathri, one by Russell from pod 181 00:11:14,940 --> 00:11:21,020 two. And so Russell has actually already put this stuff into 182 00:11:21,020 --> 00:11:24,080 anyway that Poso podcast hosting company, yes, he's already put 183 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,380 this into their feeds, and he just created a new tag. 184 00:11:27,919 --> 00:11:30,139 Adam Curry: He's the SAM Sethi of hosting companies, 185 00:11:30,139 --> 00:11:30,739 apparently. 186 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,220 Dave Jones: So he created a new tag called podcast colon 187 00:11:37,220 --> 00:11:42,820 banners, or podcast colon banner. Banner, no, it banners, 188 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:48,580 I'm sorry, banners. And then in there he's got a tag, like in 189 00:11:48,580 --> 00:11:52,480 this, this is a parent node for a tag, a parent tag for it, for 190 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:58,780 a podcast banner, tag that defines a a source, so you know, 191 00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:01,440 URL to an image, right? A mind, 192 00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:04,860 Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Oh, so it can be video. Could be a video 193 00:12:04,860 --> 00:12:05,640 banner and 194 00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:08,340 Dave Jones: an aspect ratio. 195 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,200 Adam Curry: Okay, by the way, so far, I'm on board with the idea. 196 00:12:14,279 --> 00:12:16,919 Dave Jones: And if it's and if it's a, if it's a video, it also 197 00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:22,939 has a length attribute, right? Um, now this is fine. I don't 198 00:12:22,999 --> 00:12:26,779 really have a problem with with this. I like sort of 199 00:12:26,779 --> 00:12:36,979 semantically pleasing tags like this. You know, we all want to 200 00:12:36,979 --> 00:12:39,559 be semantically pleasing in our lives, and this is this fits 201 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:39,919 this 202 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:41,979 Adam Curry: man. If I could be semantically pleasing to my 203 00:12:41,979 --> 00:12:44,139 wife, I'd have it made a good life. 204 00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:46,540 Dave Jones: If you figure out how, give me, shoot me a text, 205 00:12:46,540 --> 00:12:49,120 yeah? Because I need that in my own life as 206 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,700 Adam Curry: well. I'll do a blast on the social a blast, 207 00:12:52,779 --> 00:12:56,199 Dave Jones: yeah, put us on blast. So he, I mean, he's, he's 208 00:12:56,199 --> 00:12:59,019 not only defined the tag. He's doing it. I mean, he's just 209 00:12:59,019 --> 00:13:03,839 running. He's running with some some humongous scissors. So you 210 00:13:03,839 --> 00:13:12,059 have that, then you have a competing proposal which uses an 211 00:13:12,059 --> 00:13:17,039 exit, which just modifies the existing images tag. You know, 212 00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:21,979 this is the one that that James cridlin gets heartburn from 213 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,420 Adam Curry: because no one uses it and he wants it out. Yeah, 214 00:13:26,420 --> 00:13:26,900 right, right. 215 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:34,040 Dave Jones: So podcast, colon images is has been in the spec 216 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,660 forever, for a long time, yeah, and pod LP app already uses it. 217 00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:43,780 Currently is defined this way. So can I ask? Yeah, 218 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,420 Adam Curry: maybe in your in your definition, give the 219 00:13:46,420 --> 00:13:51,520 example of how pod LP uses it. Because I currently have, in our 220 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,560 feed, I have, let me just make sure I'm saying it right. We 221 00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:02,460 have episode image URL and podcast image URL. 222 00:14:04,860 --> 00:14:07,440 Dave Jones: You don't have a tag in our feed called podcast colon 223 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,220 images. Hold on. 224 00:14:12,659 --> 00:14:13,559 Unknown: Let me see, 225 00:14:15,299 --> 00:14:18,419 Dave Jones: sir Spencer says he uses podcast images. Okay? 226 00:14:18,479 --> 00:14:21,139 Images. You hand code your feed though, sir Spencer, right. 227 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:28,760 Adam Curry: We do not have that, okay, no, but I think I'm 228 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,460 looking at Sovereign feeds. I think sovereign feeds is just 229 00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:40,340 set up to do it because, because it also says, it says default 230 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:44,560 image URL synced with podcast metadata, which, okay, not sure 231 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,500 what that means, but okay, I 232 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:52,480 Dave Jones: don't know either. No, all right. No, I I have a 233 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,660 standing rule to never look at sir Spencer's images on anything 234 00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:57,880 that's right, absolutely you don't have to tell me, 235 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,120 Adam Curry: though that idea, I. Um, 236 00:15:01,980 --> 00:15:07,380 Dave Jones: so the podcast images tag was based on the 237 00:15:07,380 --> 00:15:16,920 html5 source set, syntax, src, s, e, t, that's an attribute 238 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:21,320 that's in the html5 image tag where you can say you can define 239 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:26,420 a source set and say, and then you can have multiple images 240 00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:30,020 defined in the same attribute. So instead of just a source, you 241 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:37,640 can have a source set. And that source set is, is a is an array 242 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:45,940 delimited by commas, where each member of the array is a URL in 243 00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:51,580 a space, and then the horizontal width of the image in pixels, 244 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,700 Adam Curry: okay, and that's what Stephen Bell was talking 245 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,000 about. He his his stuff wouldn't take an array, I guess, or 246 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:58,540 whatever, 247 00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:06,899 Dave Jones: something like that. And so the one thing that has 248 00:16:06,899 --> 00:16:09,659 been misunderstood, and James, this is a misunderstanding that 249 00:16:09,659 --> 00:16:14,939 James has, is looking at that source set and saying, okay, 250 00:16:14,939 --> 00:16:19,679 then it can only, I've heard him say this multiple times, that it 251 00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:23,719 means that the images have to be square, because you're saying 252 00:16:23,959 --> 00:16:28,219 this image is a 1500 about 1500 this image is 600 by 600 that's 253 00:16:28,219 --> 00:16:33,379 not that's not the case the the source set defines the URL and 254 00:16:33,379 --> 00:16:39,319 the width. It doesn't define the height in the source set. Yes, 255 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:40,160 Adam Curry: I see that. 256 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,480 Dave Jones: So it can be, it doesn't have, they don't have to 257 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,480 be square images. They just that's, that's a 258 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:52,540 misunderstanding. So the the currently, the images tag is 259 00:16:52,540 --> 00:16:57,700 based on that terminology. Excuse me, that that that pro 260 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,720 sort of standard within html5 and that's standard is in use in 261 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,620 browsers. I mean, it's a supported thing. So the idea 262 00:17:07,620 --> 00:17:13,200 was, we can just take this, you know, this would be an easy, an 263 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,560 easy pickup for people who, under already understands, you 264 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:22,340 know, html5, modern, modern HTML. And so then Nathan's in 265 00:17:22,340 --> 00:17:27,800 proposal to get the banner stuff in there is to extend the images 266 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:36,620 tag to have to be more to it's not a breaking change, but it 267 00:17:36,620 --> 00:17:44,680 would be more consistent with existing podcast image tags, and 268 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,220 also have this other stuff in it that could accommodate what what 269 00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:51,100 Russell wants, or what we all want with banners. So his 270 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,580 proposal is, first of all, you make it where you can have 271 00:17:54,580 --> 00:17:58,900 multiple tags, either in the channel or an item, because 272 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:04,080 currently it's only single and that just seems, that seems fine 273 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:09,840 to me. Then you have a source attribute, just like a standard 274 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:16,020 image tag, you also have the source set that you can use. The 275 00:18:16,020 --> 00:18:19,140 source, the way he describes it, is a fallback media URL if 276 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:23,120 multiple sizes are not available. Which it sounds, that 277 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,760 sounds, that makes, that makes sense. Then you would have a 278 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,720 type. So it'd be a MIME type, which is, you know, logical, 279 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,560 which logical, logical. And then you have the aspect ratio. And 280 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,940 his aspect ratio defines, is the syntax of the aspect ratio he's 281 00:18:37,940 --> 00:18:48,220 using, is the SIA is what CSS uses, and Eric PP is because you 282 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:51,040 can provide multiple images in the same tag. That's why it's 283 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:59,200 called images and not image. So the aspect ratio is defined like 284 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,160 with a slash. So you like 16 by nine would be 16 slash nine, 285 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,120 because that's how CSS does it. And so that, again, this would 286 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,680 make this an ease, sort of an easy pickup mentally, for people 287 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:16,740 who are already used to web development, right? And so that, 288 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,560 that kind of that solves the same problem just by extending a 289 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:30,620 diff a different tag instead of creating a new one. Now, my my 290 00:19:30,620 --> 00:19:36,380 clear preference here is for podcast images to be extended. 291 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,400 Adam Curry: Yeah. I mean, I can see why, of course, 292 00:19:42,020 --> 00:19:45,160 Dave Jones: and rather than creating a new tag called 293 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:45,640 banner, 294 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,340 Adam Curry: right? Yeah, because there can be all kinds of 295 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:54,160 images, you know, might be a funny way images, promo video. I 296 00:19:54,160 --> 00:20:00,720 mean, it's kind of a whacked out way of describing. Driving an 297 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,920 image, which isn't an image, it's a video, but I guess you 298 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,360 could use that, right? 299 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,720 Dave Jones: Yeah, a dog's hell in it. 300 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,740 Adam Curry: They just that was your dog. I thought it was my 301 00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:14,760 dog. I was your dog. 302 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,820 Dave Jones: No, it's not okay. I think a fire truck one button 303 00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:23,000 and he started hell. Yeah, there's, but I'm gonna play 304 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,960 devil's advocate against myself here, though, the the there's 305 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:37,280 one you know, Russell is, is attracted to the semantics of 306 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,280 having a tag called podcast banner, and I understand why. 307 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:50,140 It's because, you know, if you think like a machine, then if 308 00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:55,600 you have a tag that is that just says podcast images, and it has 309 00:20:55,660 --> 00:21:00,120 an and one of the images defined in there has an aspect ratio of 310 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:05,760 one to one. One of them has an aspect ratio of 16 by nine, and 311 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:11,280 another one has an aspect ratio of three to one. Nothing about 312 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,280 the presence of any of that tells you whether one of those 313 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,440 is intended to be a banner image, right? I mean, you could 314 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,420 be grabbing an image and like, you know, oh yeah, anything 315 00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:25,700 that's three to one or four to one or, well, 316 00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:27,680 Adam Curry: perhaps the description, the description is 317 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:33,800 wrong. I mean, a banner is a description and an aspect ratio, 318 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:38,360 you know? I mean, whereas I might have an image that I 319 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:43,060 determined to be a social media share image, or an image that I 320 00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:46,240 intend to, you know, I want this at the top of something. So 321 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,780 therefore it's a banner. You know what I mean? Is it A, is 322 00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:51,220 that the descriptor is wrong? 323 00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:56,440 Dave Jones: Yeah, like, because some, well, some banners could 324 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,500 be like, not all, none, like blues. So the ones I know of, 325 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:07,020 Facebook, Twitter has a banner idea, Mastodon has a banner 326 00:22:07,020 --> 00:22:10,140 idea. Blue sky. I mean, a lot of these social media things, and 327 00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:13,980 I'm sure immediately there would be use amongst things like 328 00:22:13,980 --> 00:22:20,480 podpage and and hosting company websites, maybe even sites like 329 00:22:20,660 --> 00:22:28,280 plink and those kind of things. So, but, but, if you don't 330 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,280 clearly say this is what this thing is supposed to be, if you 331 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,280 just randomly take the first you know, Oh, this one's a three, 332 00:22:37,340 --> 00:22:40,960 three by one, because, because blue sky stuff is maybe three 333 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,080 and a half to one, right? And Facebook's is four to one, and 334 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,720 it's like, well, which like, what you really want. What you 335 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:57,040 really want is, is a a tag that says, Look, I'm a banner. That's 336 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,920 what I'm supposed to be. You know? Now, the reason it works 337 00:23:03,540 --> 00:23:07,920 with images, with album art, the reason album art doesn't have to 338 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,540 say, Hey, I'm album art is because, historically within 339 00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:16,920 podcasting, if you find an image in there, it's album art, right? 340 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,940 Because there was only ever that use case initially, and that use 341 00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:26,960 case lasted so long that that it's just, that's just the way 342 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:33,740 it works. But now we have something, the ability to do 343 00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:37,460 something new, and now that we're introducing something new, 344 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:43,420 you you can cause you can just dump a whole bunch of stuff into 345 00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:49,180 a feed and have no idea how to actually use it, right? So, I 346 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:58,060 mean, my, my, here's where I'm at right now as far and tell me 347 00:23:58,060 --> 00:24:00,900 what you think about this. I think these changes to the 348 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:06,900 images tag are good enough on their own to just to justify 349 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,420 adopting the changes regardless, take the banner idea out of it 350 00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:16,380 for the for a minute, just having these changes is fine, 351 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,140 because it doesn't really break anything. 352 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:22,460 Adam Curry: I think that's the same point, not not breaking 353 00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:26,000 anything or or unnecessarily adding a new tag when we could 354 00:24:26,060 --> 00:24:27,920 shoehorn it into an existing one, 355 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:34,460 Dave Jones: right, right? And so I think that that that stands on 356 00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:44,620 its own as a way to do this, the banner thing is harder because, 357 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,480 I mean, I like the idea, but I think it just needs, I think it 358 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:59,560 needs some more discussion about whether or not the banner there 359 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,020 might be. A different way to do it. So let me see what I'm 360 00:25:04,020 --> 00:25:08,520 trying to say here. So instead of defining the banner and it 361 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,660 ended up in it ending up just being a different version, like 362 00:25:12,660 --> 00:25:15,960 it looks exactly like images, except it just has a different 363 00:25:16,020 --> 00:25:21,860 name. Perhaps the images tag can also have an ID, and then the 364 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,640 and then you have a tag that says banner, and it just tells 365 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:31,400 you which image is the banner. Yeah, so banner, and then an 366 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,400 attribute that says, you know, 367 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:39,800 Adam Curry: MIME type, URL, aspect ratio, no, 368 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:45,220 Dave Jones: no, no, no. So you have, you have a you have a each 369 00:25:45,220 --> 00:25:51,760 images tag has an ID, equals ID equals 1577, right, right, 370 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,040 right. And then you have a banner tag that says banner. 371 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,820 It's got one attribute that says ID equals 1577, and you know 372 00:25:57,820 --> 00:25:59,980 that that image is the banner got it. 373 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,240 Adam Curry: I mean, like, instead of just using the word, 374 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,420 instead of just using the word banner, we'll use a code for it. 375 00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:10,080 Dave Jones: Well, it's kind of like, it's kind of like what you 376 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,700 do in HTML, where you say, where each HTML tag or element can 377 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:18,300 have an ID associated with it, and so then sometimes you say, 378 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,180 sometimes you have, like, a label tag in HTML, and you say, 379 00:26:23,180 --> 00:26:29,840 four equals this other band, this other HTML tag, and so you 380 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,580 know that this this label goes with this checkbox, okay, okay. 381 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,940 And so the same thing could be done here. You could have banner 382 00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:41,440 four equals and then the ID that references the image tag that 383 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,500 you that is the banner. Oh, okay, like it's a little more 384 00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:46,180 complicated, but at least it gives you 385 00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,700 Adam Curry: easier in programming at the other end, 386 00:26:49,780 --> 00:26:54,400 Dave Jones: I think so. I think so, because you know you're 387 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,140 barring that, the barring that, the only other thing I can which 388 00:27:01,140 --> 00:27:03,600 that seems a little convoluted, because the other 389 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,560 straightforward way to solve this would just be to have 390 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:14,100 another attribute on the images tag that says, like, use like, 391 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:23,060 use equal banner, or use equal art for the album art. And to 392 00:27:23,060 --> 00:27:25,940 me, once you put that in, then it solves the problems that 393 00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:31,640 Russell is is having with the semantics of it, where you have 394 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,940 now you actually have, you're saying this is a banner. 395 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:38,480 Adam Curry: From a feed creation standpoint, to me, it seems more 396 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,640 logical to say this is a banner. This is a promo video. This is a 397 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,920 headshot. You know, there's a million different things I could 398 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:45,580 come up with, 399 00:27:48,460 --> 00:27:53,020 Dave Jones: yeah, I mean this, yeah, yeah, I think so. Because 400 00:27:53,140 --> 00:27:58,840 then you could also, like, grab sorry. Then you could also tie 401 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,640 it to, if we do it this way, and you just and you have the 402 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:09,060 ability to drop a generic image batch into the feed and then 403 00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:14,100 give it and then sort of tie it to some use case that's pretty 404 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,760 powerful, versus just having a thing that says banner, and 405 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,820 that's the only thing It can ever do, is just be a banner, 406 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,560 okay? That, I mean, so it's like a 407 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,020 Adam Curry: combo. It's like you have some attributes, but then 408 00:28:30,020 --> 00:28:32,960 you also have equals banner, 409 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,940 Dave Jones: yeah, yeah, attribute, like a purpose 410 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,340 equals, or above all, sounds like 411 00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:42,520 Adam Curry: something that we could argue about on GitHub for 412 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:43,300 a couple months. 413 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,160 Dave Jones: I think, I think, as it stands now, the enhancement 414 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,380 stuff is is good enough on its own to just adopt that. And I 415 00:28:56,380 --> 00:29:01,920 think the banner thing is a different discussion. Okay, I 416 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,220 like adding an attribute because I think that solves everybody's 417 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:11,760 problem. An extra attribute, but I will let Russell tell me where 418 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,120 I'm wrong. 419 00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:15,780 Adam Curry: Okay, so can we table this for now? 420 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:19,080 Dave Jones: We can. I want to say one more thing, 421 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:20,960 Adam Curry: okay, Steve. 422 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,720 Dave Jones: I mean, I'm creating an iPhone. I want to say one, 423 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,540 just one, just throw one more thing in, and it's just another 424 00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:36,800 thing about, about the naming. And that was another aspect of 425 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,320 what Russell was saying. Just to give a quick recap on my, on, 426 00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:46,840 on, on, my opinion about naming things is, I don't think for 427 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,820 developers that name, that names of things matter, right? And 428 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,600 it's because, it's because nut is for the exact reason that 429 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,960 Dave Weiner says. And rules for standard makers. These are all 430 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,620 English languages. Yes, English language things some people 431 00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:04,800 don't even read English, right? And they they still have the 432 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,920 ability to program. They just learn what they look like, and 433 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,020 they know what that and they learn the word when they need to 434 00:30:10,020 --> 00:30:13,380 learn it. We also have other things that we that we deal with 435 00:30:13,380 --> 00:30:16,860 on a daily basis, things like JSON and what does that even 436 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:17,220 mean? 437 00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:20,280 Adam Curry: Thank you. Thank you. You know, good point. 438 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,660 Dave Jones: This is all just stuff. Nobody knows what any of 439 00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:26,540 this stuff is until they need to know it, and then they go learn 440 00:30:26,540 --> 00:30:33,080 it. So I just don't think it's a problem, okay, all right. I 441 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,320 mean, I feel like, I feel like that's enough to go on and then, 442 00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:40,900 and then Nathan said he's gonna, he said he's gonna throw the 443 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:46,840 purpose attribute in there, into the proposal, and then we can 444 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,900 follow we can just, like, pick that up on GitHub. Okay, 445 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,360 Unknown: excellent. Hey, 446 00:30:52,660 --> 00:30:53,320 good work, guys. 447 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,060 Adam Curry: It could work. We got through it. Or I'm closing 448 00:30:55,060 --> 00:31:00,480 out the segment. There you go. And now it's time ending in 449 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,200 space. Done? Everybody have a cigarette. It's all over. It's 450 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,160 done. There we go. 451 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,080 Dave Jones: Now, you just kicked the ball back up in the air. Now 452 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,760 we're reopened it again. 453 00:31:10,980 --> 00:31:16,800 Adam Curry: Quick update, just on wallet stuff. Oscar sent us a 454 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,460 note. He says he'll have a an OAuth type demo this weekend. 455 00:31:22,460 --> 00:31:28,760 Hopefully they say this weekend. I think he said this weekend? 456 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,240 Yeah, I think so. Chad, 457 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,640 Dave Jones: don't do that. Don't say 60 minutes left. You're 458 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,540 stressing me out. I'm 459 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,820 Adam Curry: moving things along here. It's like we got to stop 460 00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:43,600 with the stupid namespace talk. I got other things to discuss 461 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,940 with you. So, yeah, I believe so Oscar reached out and he says, 462 00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:50,920 this weekend, we'll see when it's ready. It's all good, 463 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,460 because that's a demo we're all looking forward to. On that 464 00:31:54,460 --> 00:31:58,720 note, do you have a final final yet from Zebedee on 465 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,620 implementation? Because that's what we're going after here, all 466 00:32:01,620 --> 00:32:05,580 these different custodial services that have money 467 00:32:05,580 --> 00:32:08,820 transmitter licenses, which, of course, will you know 468 00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:11,280 everything's still open. You can still be sovereign, use your 469 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,800 own, your own thing, whatever you want to do. That's not a 470 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,980 problem. This is to make it easier for the worlds to get 471 00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:20,180 past that 21,000 limit that we seem to have hit with, 472 00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:27,380 podcasters using a value block. So have you heard from Zebedee? 473 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:30,920 Dave Jones: Heard from Zach over there today, and he was just 474 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,500 asking if I had set up a developer account stuff yet, 475 00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:37,640 which I have Okay, and he we're just gonna, he just wants to 476 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,700 help me fast track and get get all that so I can play with the 477 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:43,360 API. But I don't, I have not heard back from them whether 478 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:49,540 they finalized any of their stuff they I think, I think what 479 00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:52,420 is happening is there. I get the impression that they're really 480 00:32:52,420 --> 00:32:57,340 trying to figure out how to make this work financially for 481 00:32:57,340 --> 00:33:00,300 people, yeah, and for them, and for themselves, oops, and for 482 00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:03,720 themselves, yeah, because normally these, I think what 483 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,180 they normally deal with this is just, this is all just my 484 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:13,200 impression from what, from what I've heard them say is, I think 485 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,900 they've, they're just used to dealing with more, like, like 486 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:22,520 game developers, and they have, like, a clear business like, 487 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,040 monetary plan, whereas, whereas podcast app developers don't, 488 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:28,760 yeah, 489 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:31,820 Adam Curry: well, we made that very clear to them. We said, 490 00:33:31,820 --> 00:33:35,120 there's no money here, yeah, yeah, there's very little money. 491 00:33:35,540 --> 00:33:35,840 Yeah, 492 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,420 Dave Jones: okay, you know. But they're doing real work with all 493 00:33:38,420 --> 00:33:40,480 this, you know. And they have real calls, so I think they're 494 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,340 just trying to figure out how to make it accessible to the 495 00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:48,040 developers that, yeah, so that's going to take some time. And 496 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:48,160 we're 497 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,740 Adam Curry: asking, we're asking these parties to give us a, you 498 00:33:50,740 --> 00:33:53,140 know, like a one sheet, so we can just say, here's how you 499 00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:56,260 implement it, which, of course, would come along with some 500 00:33:56,620 --> 00:34:03,720 namespace additions, although we kind of have the, Ellen URL 501 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,600 name, I think that's all. Is that already in the in the the 502 00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:11,100 value tag, we already put that in. Yeah, it's in. Okay. Then we 503 00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:14,220 have staying on the wallets for a second. We had a chat with the 504 00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:17,040 folks from light spark. Oh, 505 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,240 Dave Jones: yeah. Do you want to like, Yeah, 506 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,739 Adam Curry: I'll try and explain it. First of all, it was very 507 00:34:21,739 --> 00:34:25,219 interesting, because it reminded me so much of calls I used to 508 00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:28,459 make when I was trying to sell internet, basically, to to 509 00:34:28,459 --> 00:34:32,119 companies. And, yeah, I had, the salesperson was just landed at 510 00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:36,259 the airport. She's in the car on the call, and then she runs into 511 00:34:36,259 --> 00:34:40,539 the conference room, and the two other guys are talking and and 512 00:34:40,539 --> 00:34:42,819 then, you know, this is all great, and it's, it'll be ready 513 00:34:42,819 --> 00:34:47,139 in a week or two, okay. But in essence, what lightspark has 514 00:34:47,139 --> 00:34:51,099 done is they've created the same type, what they call it a Yuma, 515 00:34:51,099 --> 00:34:54,399 a universal money address, which is compatible, from what I 516 00:34:54,399 --> 00:34:59,919 understand, with L and URL addresses. Now stop me if I'm. 517 00:34:59,999 --> 00:35:04,979 Wrong and but the difference is, if you onboard with a Yuma 518 00:35:05,339 --> 00:35:09,359 address, universal money address, then you can 519 00:35:09,359 --> 00:35:12,899 immediately connect it to your financial institution. And they 520 00:35:12,899 --> 00:35:16,319 have in America, they have Bank of America Chase, and they have 521 00:35:16,319 --> 00:35:19,559 some, some outfit in Brazil, and you know, that's part of their 522 00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:23,239 business, is onboarding. And the reason why is they're sitting on 523 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,999 top of, I forget the name of the what was the name of zero hash? 524 00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:32,299 Zero hash? Yeah. So they're sitting on top of zero hash. So 525 00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:36,439 there is a KYC process, but I think it'll probably be a little 526 00:35:36,439 --> 00:35:40,099 less dorky, since they're trying to make this, professionalize 527 00:35:40,099 --> 00:35:45,279 this for people, it'll be a little less dorky than than some 528 00:35:45,279 --> 00:35:51,339 of the existing Bitcoin KYC processes are. It'll probably be 529 00:35:51,339 --> 00:35:53,739 the same, but it just might be slicker, 530 00:35:54,339 --> 00:35:56,019 Dave Jones: something where you have to send a picture of 531 00:35:56,019 --> 00:35:58,479 yourself from your phone holding a sign that says, My name is 532 00:35:58,479 --> 00:35:59,559 Dave Jones, yeah, stuff 533 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,900 Adam Curry: like that, exactly. So the the whole flow is your 534 00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:08,160 financial institution through plaid into what's that thing 535 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,940 called, their 536 00:36:13,260 --> 00:36:14,160 Unknown: RTP? No, 537 00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:16,979 Adam Curry: you just meant, yeah, but you just mentioned 00, 538 00:36:17,459 --> 00:36:20,719 hash, and then into the Yuma, and then they're doing the 539 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:26,059 transfer over lightning and then the other end. Of course, it can 540 00:36:26,059 --> 00:36:31,819 go to a lightning address, or it can go into into another Yuma 541 00:36:31,819 --> 00:36:35,779 address, which then reverses the flow and goes back up and 542 00:36:35,779 --> 00:36:40,159 eventually into your financial institution. So you can just 543 00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:43,659 say, I want to send a Euro, I want to send $1 I want to send 544 00:36:43,659 --> 00:36:48,219 X, Y or Z, and it'll just make it to the other end with minimal 545 00:36:48,219 --> 00:36:56,319 fees that we're talking about 0.8% of the transaction, and 546 00:36:56,799 --> 00:36:59,919 which I think is another fine solution. A lot of people won't 547 00:36:59,919 --> 00:37:02,639 like it because, you know, of the KYC, etc, 548 00:37:03,059 --> 00:37:06,239 Dave Jones: but the you can always roll your own, 549 00:37:06,299 --> 00:37:08,039 Adam Curry: yeah, exactly. That's what I like, because it 550 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:11,699 interrupts with everything else. So it would be a very easy 551 00:37:11,699 --> 00:37:16,199 option. And we asked for them for the same, you know, can you 552 00:37:16,199 --> 00:37:19,679 give us a and they said they would have some kind of OAuth 553 00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:22,759 solution coming in a month. You know, whatever these things, I'm 554 00:37:23,179 --> 00:37:27,619 not expecting anything before next year, but they always take 555 00:37:27,619 --> 00:37:33,559 longer than Yeah, develop it. Hello, but I like it because, 556 00:37:33,559 --> 00:37:36,139 you know, now we're getting to a place where you make it a lot 557 00:37:36,139 --> 00:37:39,199 more accessible for people to just say, Okay, so now I can 558 00:37:39,199 --> 00:37:48,039 hook this up. I go to, what is it? Yuma.me, I register an 559 00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:52,359 address, and then I do my my KYC song and dance, and then I 560 00:37:52,359 --> 00:37:55,599 connect it straight to my my debit card, to my bank account, 561 00:37:55,839 --> 00:37:59,139 and I can start sending if I'm in America dollars, if I'm in 562 00:37:59,139 --> 00:38:05,339 Australia dollars, although significantly worth less in 563 00:38:05,339 --> 00:38:09,599 Europe, in the EU, euros. And I think that would be, that's 564 00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:12,959 great. I think it's fantastic. I mean, obviously a lot of people 565 00:38:12,959 --> 00:38:16,319 going to push back, oh, all kinds of Yes, yes, there's 566 00:38:16,319 --> 00:38:19,499 financial stuff in there, but it's all compatible with the 567 00:38:19,499 --> 00:38:21,679 sovereign state of the Lightning Network. 568 00:38:22,699 --> 00:38:26,479 Dave Jones: Well, my So, my understanding was the flow would 569 00:38:26,479 --> 00:38:32,479 be something like this would be you, you would so, so a Yuma 570 00:38:32,539 --> 00:38:36,199 looks like it looks like an email address, like a lightning 571 00:38:36,199 --> 00:38:39,019 address, except it has a little dollar sign in the beginning. 572 00:38:39,019 --> 00:38:41,379 That's the first character, right, right? That's how you 573 00:38:41,379 --> 00:38:45,639 know it's a Yuma, a universal money address. And so the Yuma 574 00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:51,399 thing, like, you would go to Yuma, not me, and then you would 575 00:38:51,399 --> 00:38:53,979 go through a process like you do with like, plaid. 576 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,520 Adam Curry: In fact, they're literally using plaid. Yeah, 577 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:57,760 they're 578 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,320 Dave Jones: using plaid to associate the universal money 579 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,780 address with a bank account, and then you have this second step 580 00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:12,480 in what they showed us, where it prompts you to like, what do you 581 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,620 want to be able to do with this? With this connection? Do you 582 00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:19,980 want it to be able to deduct funds? Credit funds? Yeah. 583 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,480 Permission, permissions. That permissions, yeah. I mean, just 584 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,280 like you do with plaid. Well, like Venmo. 585 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,740 Adam Curry: It's like connecting it to Venmo. It's the same thing 586 00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:31,940 as connecting PayPal or Venmo. And remember, PayPal was also 587 00:39:31,940 --> 00:39:34,700 now saying that they're going to start accepting bitcoin and 588 00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:37,040 passing it right through in Fiat. I don't know if they're 589 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,160 going to do lightning, but I think it's pretty fair to say 590 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,040 everyone's moving in this direction. 591 00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:46,900 Dave Jones: Everybody is that own chain that's on chain. I 592 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:47,140 don't 593 00:39:47,140 --> 00:39:52,480 Adam Curry: know on chain for sure, but they can't be 594 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,180 competitive without offering a lightning solution. Everyone's 595 00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:58,600 offering lightning now all the exchanges offer lightning, you 596 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,620 know, up to certain number. Ounce, obviously, for liquidity 597 00:40:01,620 --> 00:40:05,460 issues, if they want, if they want to be competitive. PayPal 598 00:40:05,460 --> 00:40:12,120 will also offer lightning, which will and because it's passed 599 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,660 through into Fiat, that will finally put no agenda on the V 600 00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:19,200 for V train, because Dvorak is okay with it, 601 00:40:20,340 --> 00:40:22,640 Dave Jones: like I haven't seen any No, there's 602 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,740 Adam Curry: no announcement yet. No, no, there's no announcement. 603 00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:29,240 Yeah, okay, okay. They're calling their their partners 604 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,020 because they're okay, because they're also Yeah. And there's 605 00:40:33,020 --> 00:40:36,260 two reasons they called. One is, hey, we're going through a whole 606 00:40:36,260 --> 00:40:40,960 new link scheme, and pretty soon all your old links will be dead. 607 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,220 Yay. Please fix something that wasn't broke. 608 00:40:45,879 --> 00:40:49,659 Dave Jones: What? Why would you ever No, I don't, no 609 00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:54,040 Adam Curry: problem. It's, it's, it's baffling to me. So they're 610 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,400 gonna train, they're gonna train us on what to do. You know, hey, 611 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,920 we're gonna, you know, it's like, like, I'll be training. 612 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,620 We're gonna onboard you into the new system, so the old system 613 00:41:04,620 --> 00:41:05,880 apparently will break. 614 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:12,000 Dave Jones: That's great. Yes, yeah. Okay, so you, I guess the 615 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,680 idea there would be that you would get a Bitcoin, some sort 616 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,220 of Bitcoin receiving address, a wallet address, and then 617 00:41:20,700 --> 00:41:23,660 anything that comes into that wallet just immediately shows up 618 00:41:23,660 --> 00:41:28,700 in your PayPal balance. Correct, correct, correct. See, okay, so 619 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,860 you know, we can do own chain easily with the value block, 620 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:34,580 yeah, 621 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,080 Adam Curry: but I'm telling you, we don't. Yes, we could. If 622 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,860 Dave Jones: I'm saying like that, that should be an option. 623 00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:46,000 Because, okay, yeah, it takes a few it takes a little bit, it 624 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,420 takes a few minutes. Can take a couple hours to verify 625 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:54,640 sometimes. But, I mean, I'm not against it. I'm not against you 626 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,720 know that if, if it comes to adoption, I mean, own chain, to 627 00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:03,780 me, is fine, if it gets over the adoption threshold. 628 00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:08,339 Adam Curry: Eric PP is already scratching his head about, what 629 00:42:08,339 --> 00:42:09,719 do I do with helipad now 630 00:42:12,659 --> 00:42:13,499 Unknown: I'm screwed. 631 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,040 Adam Curry: Well, I mean, you know, fees and there's a lot of 632 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,620 stuff to consider timing because, yeah. I mean, depending 633 00:42:21,620 --> 00:42:26,720 on what you put in your your V bite fee, you know, is it always 634 00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:30,380 going to be fastest? Will you get an option, you know, to say, 635 00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:35,480 Well, it's, you know, it's 60, you know, 60 SATs per V byte 636 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,020 right now. No, please don't send it this moment. You know, 637 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,640 there's all kinds of things to take into account there, but it 638 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,040 can be an option for sure. Yeah, 639 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:46,720 Dave Jones: I mean, it's, in fact, I 640 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,480 Adam Curry: would put that under the funding tag. 641 00:42:50,739 --> 00:42:52,839 Dave Jones: That's where I'd put that the funding tag, yeah, 642 00:42:52,839 --> 00:42:55,179 yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right. 643 00:42:55,179 --> 00:42:58,539 That's better you put it under the funding tag and because then 644 00:42:58,539 --> 00:43:02,699 you can say, Okay, I'm gonna send you. I'm gonna send you 645 00:43:02,699 --> 00:43:03,659 five grand. 646 00:43:03,899 --> 00:43:06,779 Adam Curry: Yes, well, this is Dvorak's hope. He's like, Yeah, 647 00:43:06,779 --> 00:43:09,299 we can take Bitcoin. There's always gonna be someone who's 648 00:43:09,299 --> 00:43:12,119 gonna send us a whole Bitcoin. Say, Okay, John, yeah, that's 649 00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:15,959 fine. It's gonna happen. He hasn't gotten into the micro 650 00:43:15,959 --> 00:43:17,579 payment headspace yet, but 651 00:43:17,580 --> 00:43:19,980 Dave Jones: we'll work on him. He doesn't understand Bitcoin 652 00:43:19,980 --> 00:43:20,480 culture. 653 00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:22,040 Adam Curry: No, no, he doesn't 654 00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:24,140 Dave Jones: that ain't happening. 655 00:43:28,159 --> 00:43:31,519 Adam Curry: Then I had a preliminary call with clicks, C, 656 00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:36,259 l, i, x, and we're having another call on Tuesday, and I'm 657 00:43:36,259 --> 00:43:41,079 we're looking at them as basically a podcast app. They 658 00:43:41,079 --> 00:43:45,399 have a this is a whole bunch of ex TiVo guys who and TV guide 659 00:43:45,399 --> 00:43:50,319 people, and they understand how to promote stuff. So it'd be 660 00:43:50,319 --> 00:43:55,119 discovery type app. And the cool thing about that is they're in 661 00:43:55,119 --> 00:44:00,299 600,000 hotel rooms, and so we're gonna have a call and see 662 00:44:00,299 --> 00:44:04,139 if, see if we can get them data. I showed them the tiles, dot pod 663 00:44:04,139 --> 00:44:07,559 ping.org, and their, their, their minds were, like, blown. 664 00:44:07,919 --> 00:44:11,099 Like, what? So, oh, yeah, it's like, three podcasts a second 665 00:44:11,099 --> 00:44:13,679 are updating here. Like, what? What now, 666 00:44:14,219 --> 00:44:18,059 Dave Jones: yeah, it was pod to Russell and pod two. They're 667 00:44:18,059 --> 00:44:22,519 also just started firing up pod pings. So cool. Ping is still 668 00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:28,819 growing, and, and, and Alex's pod ping, Damon just keeps 669 00:44:28,819 --> 00:44:32,059 clicking along about let it run for, I guess, a week now. Nice. 670 00:44:32,659 --> 00:44:34,879 This thing's solid as a rock. That's in rust. 671 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,320 Adam Curry: That's the rust deal. It's 672 00:44:36,319 --> 00:44:38,779 Dave Jones: in Russ, yeah. And he's, he's, he's gonna add, he's 673 00:44:38,779 --> 00:44:40,959 adding a bunch of features. He's, hasn't opened it. He has 674 00:44:40,959 --> 00:44:43,659 not opened up the repo yet, but he's going to, once he fills 675 00:44:43,659 --> 00:44:48,999 this it's solid. And one of the features he's adding is, is a 676 00:44:48,999 --> 00:44:53,559 direct to object storage, so you could store these things, but 677 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:55,899 yeah, with it'll just write straight to s3 678 00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:58,600 Adam Curry: in the in the folder structure, right? Year, Month, 679 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:05,340 Day. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I only have one other thing, but 680 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,900 we can. It's a, what we're talking about, you know, the 681 00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:13,500 specialized platform players, stuff. I've had some more 682 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:18,300 thoughts on that. But do you want to do the notebook LM stuff 683 00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:18,960 first? 684 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,500 Dave Jones: I mean, I didn't. I mean, I don't have a lot on 685 00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:25,580 that. I was just like, I don't, I've been, I guess the reason I 686 00:45:25,580 --> 00:45:30,020 threw it on my on my notes, is because I've been. I had a 687 00:45:30,020 --> 00:45:32,840 reason to resurrect my mid journey account the other day, 688 00:45:34,220 --> 00:45:35,900 because I was just, you 689 00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:37,760 Adam Curry: were looking, you needed, you needed an image, and 690 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,940 so you turned to computer generated imagery. CGI, not AI, 691 00:45:42,940 --> 00:45:43,720 CGI. 692 00:45:44,739 --> 00:45:49,899 Dave Jones: That turned to CGI. I needed a, I needed a decent 693 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:53,259 logo for this side project that we're doing. Because I just, I'm 694 00:45:53,259 --> 00:45:55,659 like, I can't look at this piece of crap anymore. 695 00:45:56,439 --> 00:45:56,979 Unknown: I saw it, 696 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,760 Dave Jones: yeah, and so I So, I was like, Okay, well, I started 697 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,640 playing around with different, you know, with different you 698 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:08,100 know, with different things and the it just, it just struck me 699 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:15,120 how sort of crazy all this is. Did you? Did you? But, like, as 700 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:20,420 you use it, you realize you see entropy at work. Entropy is you, 701 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,500 yeah, like the idea, I think it's, was it the second, second 702 00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:29,360 law of thermodynamics, all, all systems run down, you know, all 703 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:36,080 energy goes, goes towards zero. It's the is, you could, you can, 704 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,200 you can extract, sort of like extrapolate from that, this 705 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:44,800 idea, that entropy, is that idea that all things go from order to 706 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:45,460 chaos? 707 00:46:46,599 --> 00:46:48,279 Adam Curry: Okay? Yes. 708 00:46:49,420 --> 00:46:54,400 Dave Jones: So like you can, you can say, you know, if you leave, 709 00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:58,900 if you leave your car sitting on the road and never touch it, 710 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,780 1000 years from now, it's, it's going to be just a pile of rust. 711 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,860 Yes, everything, everything runs, all systems is eventually 712 00:47:07,860 --> 00:47:13,860 run down. And so you can just see this. You can see this whole 713 00:47:13,860 --> 00:47:19,680 process at work with these generative AI tools, the only 714 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:26,120 thing keeping them from just dying of their own entropy is 715 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,820 the fact that they're being guard, railed and propped up by 716 00:47:31,940 --> 00:47:34,460 people. Yes, things to them, 717 00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:37,400 Adam Curry: yes, yeah, that's true. So 718 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,180 Dave Jones: like the A good example that I heard a long time 719 00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:49,180 ago was, and this is, this is a, this is sort of an argument 720 00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:55,540 against against evolution, meaning an evolution that term 721 00:47:55,540 --> 00:48:01,440 being defined as ascent through modification, not not descent, 722 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,900 ascent, so that you get progressively more and more 723 00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:11,760 complicated organisms that can do more and more things through 724 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,940 a process of evolutionary ascent, right? But 725 00:48:14,939 --> 00:48:19,499 Adam Curry: it's, it's devolute, devolizing is devotee is going 726 00:48:19,499 --> 00:48:20,039 down, 727 00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:23,180 Dave Jones: yeah. And the the argument against that is, 728 00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:27,320 imagine you have an airplane, and stacked in that airplane, 729 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:33,020 you have 50,000 index cards, yeah. And you push all those 730 00:48:33,020 --> 00:48:39,620 index cards out of the plane, and somehow between 20,000 feet 731 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,760 and the ground, if they all organize themselves to spell out 732 00:48:45,820 --> 00:48:51,340 Adam curry on the on the interstate. Okay, that we all 733 00:48:51,340 --> 00:48:54,520 know instinctively, that that would never happen, you know. 734 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,760 But the the evolutionary argument is, oh, well, you just 735 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,720 need to give it more time. So instead of at 20,000 feet, you 736 00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:02,940 go up to 35,000 feet. 737 00:49:03,060 --> 00:49:06,900 Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah. You just put more more data centers in, 738 00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:11,700 more power, more chips, more nuke power, yeah. Or 739 00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:14,640 Dave Jones: you just do it more times. Instead of doing it once. 740 00:49:14,820 --> 00:49:19,680 You do, you know, you you do the plain index card thing 2 billion 741 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,340 times. Well, it doesn't matter how many times you do it, you're 742 00:49:22,340 --> 00:49:25,280 never going to get you're never going to get a quote from 743 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,100 Shakespeare out of index cards falling on the ground from 744 00:49:28,100 --> 00:49:31,580 20,000 feet. It's just not because all systems run down. We 745 00:49:31,580 --> 00:49:35,660 just know that this is the case. And that's the way this works, 746 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,720 with with with generative AI as well, like every time you hit 747 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:45,100 that. So there's this button on mid journey where, like, you put 748 00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:49,720 in your prompt, and most of the time, like out of the gate, like 749 00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:53,680 out of your first prompt, you kind of get something decent, 750 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,160 like, it's pretty it's pretty good, obviously, because it's 751 00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,600 been trained on, on 752 00:49:58,599 --> 00:50:01,379 Adam Curry: real art. You know. Oh, yeah, definitely, 753 00:50:01,379 --> 00:50:02,759 definitely, it's 754 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:04,680 Dave Jones: been trained on other people's effort, you know. 755 00:50:04,740 --> 00:50:07,380 So you get something pretty good, but then you have these 756 00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:11,700 little buttons so you get like four, you get a quad matrix that 757 00:50:11,700 --> 00:50:17,520 has like four quadrants in it, 1234, and you say, Okay, I want 758 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,160 this quadrant three. I like this image. So give me variations of 759 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,100 this image so you can say very and it'll run it back through 760 00:50:25,100 --> 00:50:29,780 the model again and try to come up with variants of this. The 761 00:50:29,780 --> 00:50:33,500 more times you keep doing that, this thing gets worse and worse 762 00:50:33,500 --> 00:50:36,560 and worse, right? Like it's never better than the first time 763 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:44,560 you did it. And so I was thinking that you really only 764 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:50,380 get one shot at this whole thing, because, you know, we 765 00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:53,380 talked about model collapse before, where you train, it's 766 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,840 sort of, yeah, it's eating its own dog food. And it starts to, 767 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,320 sort of like these, these language models, or these 768 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:06,780 generative models, begin to incestuously in incorporate 769 00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:09,120 their own output into their into their training, 770 00:51:09,179 --> 00:51:11,699 Adam Curry: right? Yeah, incestuously is the right term, 771 00:51:11,699 --> 00:51:14,099 but you get very weak children that can't walk, 772 00:51:15,540 --> 00:51:22,700 Dave Jones: right, right? And so this, this whole thing reminded 773 00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:26,780 me of a discussion I think I heard on ATP where in and I've I 774 00:51:26,780 --> 00:51:30,680 ended up finding it on Tom's Hardware, where they were 775 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,900 taught, where Apple Apple intelligence, the forthcoming 776 00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:40,100 Apple intelligence, somebody leaked the prompts that they're 777 00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:43,900 using under the covers. Yeah. So for all, for each one of these 778 00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:50,620 use cases, like, they have one use case that says apple. It's 779 00:51:50,620 --> 00:51:54,820 in Apple photos where you can say, you know, Hey, Siri, tell 780 00:51:54,820 --> 00:52:00,600 me a story from these photos. And it'll, it'll, like, create 781 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,900 us this story with a music, with music and all this kind of stuff 782 00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:07,620 that goes with your photos. Well, the underlying prompt that 783 00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:11,640 does that they somebody found it in the bay in the beta. They 784 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,400 reverse engineered the code and found the prompt and under the 785 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,480 covers. What Apple is doing is they're just sending a textual 786 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:24,680 prompt to the local model under the under the covers, and the 787 00:52:24,980 --> 00:52:29,180 the the the thing they're sent, the prompt they're sending to 788 00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:32,960 the local model on device, is this. Here are the story 789 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:38,660 guidelines you must obey. Yeah. The story should be about the 790 00:52:38,660 --> 00:52:42,340 intent of the user. The story should contain a clear arc. The 791 00:52:42,340 --> 00:52:45,640 story should be diverse. That is, do not overly focus the 792 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,060 entire story on one very specific theme or trade. Do not 793 00:52:49,060 --> 00:52:52,060 write a story that is religious, political, harmful, violent, 794 00:52:52,060 --> 00:52:55,840 sexual ability or any way negative, sad or provocative. 795 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:02,220 But you know, what if? What if you 796 00:53:02,279 --> 00:53:04,139 Adam Curry: So, those are the those. Those are the pre 797 00:53:04,139 --> 00:53:07,439 prompts. That's the the setup where you set the model up for 798 00:53:07,439 --> 00:53:08,879 the input from the user. 799 00:53:10,020 --> 00:53:13,860 Dave Jones: Yes, exactly. And so basically, you're telling the 800 00:53:13,860 --> 00:53:16,980 model ahead of time you you're not allowed to do any, to do 801 00:53:16,980 --> 00:53:22,040 anything that is to write the story that is religious. What, 802 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,380 if you, what, if you're a Muslim and you went to Mecca, 803 00:53:25,460 --> 00:53:26,720 Adam Curry: no mecca for you, 804 00:53:27,499 --> 00:53:30,739 Dave Jones: should I add a lug man? Like, sorry, I mean, what 805 00:53:30,739 --> 00:53:35,899 is he gonna say? Is it gonna say? Like, oh, the sand was 806 00:53:35,899 --> 00:53:40,959 beautiful on this trip. Like, what is it gonna say? You know, 807 00:53:41,619 --> 00:53:46,119 it's just also this is also this in this goes back to this, like 808 00:53:46,119 --> 00:53:49,419 you're, you're just trying to put guardrails, yeah, yeah, on 809 00:53:49,419 --> 00:53:56,619 this, on on a, on a process that is naturally tied intricately 810 00:53:56,619 --> 00:54:02,159 to, to an intro to an entropic process. And you're trying to 811 00:54:02,159 --> 00:54:05,279 keep it propped up by 812 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,880 Adam Curry: doing that, so not letting it devolve by keeping 813 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:09,600 the guardrails 814 00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:12,179 Dave Jones: in place. And there's another, there's another 815 00:54:12,179 --> 00:54:13,499 prompt that says, I 816 00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:15,420 Adam Curry: gotta find this article, by the way, you got to 817 00:54:15,420 --> 00:54:16,980 send that to me. Yeah, I'll 818 00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:19,920 Dave Jones: send it to you. There's another, another prompt. 819 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:27,920 This says, um, was Oh. It says, that's what it is. It says, do 820 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:33,560 not produce. It gives a whole bunch of parameters. Here's 821 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,020 what, here's what I want you to do. And at the end of it, it 822 00:54:36,020 --> 00:54:39,800 says, Please give me valid please make the output valid 823 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:46,120 JSON. Do not use bad JSON. What does that mean? This is the 824 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,480 point we've come to, where we're, we're, you know, like 825 00:54:49,780 --> 00:54:52,780 we're saying we're having to tell the computer don't give me 826 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,960 what I don't want. I mean, this is just so this all feels very 827 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,100 silly. Wow. 828 00:54:57,340 --> 00:54:57,940 Unknown: Wow. 829 00:54:59,139 --> 00:55:02,159 Dave Jones: Um. Well, have you heard, have you heard dead 830 00:55:02,159 --> 00:55:04,799 internet theory? Do you know this? Yes, yes, 831 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,720 Adam Curry: where we're only talking to bots at the end of 832 00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:08,760 the day, and there's no one real anymore. 833 00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:13,140 Dave Jones: I mean, I don't think that's very crazy. 834 00:55:13,619 --> 00:55:16,079 Adam Curry: No, I think we're already there to a degree. I see 835 00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:19,799 it all the time on x. I'm like, Okay, that's a bot, that's a 836 00:55:19,799 --> 00:55:24,199 bot, that's a bot. Yeah, anything username with this 837 00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:28,639 whole string of numbers suspicious? You're probably a 838 00:55:28,639 --> 00:55:29,179 bot 839 00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:33,380 Dave Jones: in the I think, I think that the thing I didn't 840 00:55:33,380 --> 00:55:36,380 realize about that whole theory, or whatever you want to call it, 841 00:55:36,380 --> 00:55:41,260 is that supposedly they're like, part of the theory is that this 842 00:55:41,260 --> 00:55:44,860 all happened, like, cross the tipping point in like 2016 there 843 00:55:45,820 --> 00:55:50,800 was, like this date where, where it became. There was more bots 844 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:55,960 online, yeah, interacting with each other than humans. And then 845 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,980 when I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah, I can see that. I bet you that's 846 00:55:59,980 --> 00:56:03,180 Adam Curry: true. To take it to podcasting. So comics, your 847 00:56:03,180 --> 00:56:07,260 blogger through the transcript from the most recent no agenda 848 00:56:07,260 --> 00:56:11,220 episode into notebook LM and those two voices, the only 849 00:56:11,220 --> 00:56:16,320 voices they have apparently created a summary of that 850 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,860 episode, which was actually quite interesting. It shows a 851 00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:22,880 three and a half hour episode, they created a eight minute 852 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,840 summary, and there was some really funny mistakes in there. 853 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,920 But in general, it's like, well, you know, if you want to hear a 854 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,140 summary of what we talked about, it was, by the way, is very 855 00:56:33,140 --> 00:56:36,800 complimentary. Like, these guys are great, you know, they 856 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,020 really, they don't, they don't just take everything at face 857 00:56:39,020 --> 00:56:44,680 value, you know. Okay, so it was nice to kind of get that 858 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:50,140 evaluation, and I can see, I can see where people will listen to 859 00:56:50,140 --> 00:56:53,080 the in fact, there's a service out there that someone sent me 860 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:58,720 called, what is it? Called the auto generated podcast, the 861 00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:04,260 automated daily.com so he creates, I think, four or five 862 00:57:04,260 --> 00:57:06,960 different podcasts. It's all automated every single day, 863 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,220 general news, tech news, AI news, Hacker News, and it 864 00:57:11,220 --> 00:57:16,140 creates, out of the links from some sources, it creates a 865 00:57:16,140 --> 00:57:20,280 podcast with this all the same voice. But you know, honestly, 866 00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,300 just listening to that for four minutes. And if you just want to 867 00:57:23,300 --> 00:57:27,080 be informed about a topic, and just want to listen to it, it's, 868 00:57:27,140 --> 00:57:32,360 it's actually not that bad. But you know, you it's just because 869 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:36,920 someone's reading it to me, it does some editorializing and 870 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,620 makes some choices about, you know, if something is good bad 871 00:57:41,620 --> 00:57:46,900 on edge out there, you know, it makes some some assumptions and 872 00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:50,980 puts that in. But, you know, to me, it's like, that's not why 873 00:57:50,980 --> 00:57:54,700 I'm listening to podcasts. You know, I still, I mean, people 874 00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:57,100 just want to consume information. And there's a lot 875 00:57:57,100 --> 00:58:00,100 of people who just want by the if you, if you listen to 876 00:58:00,100 --> 00:58:03,060 podcasts at 1.5 speed. You're going to love these AI voices. 877 00:58:03,060 --> 00:58:05,760 It's perfect for you. You're going to flood your brain with 878 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:11,280 shit. Enjoy fun, yeah. But I think it's only better, because, 879 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,180 you know, personality and humanity people always recognize 880 00:58:15,180 --> 00:58:19,440 that, they always do, and they're going to want that and 881 00:58:19,620 --> 00:58:23,180 value that more. But I think we can, we can look forward to a 882 00:58:23,180 --> 00:58:28,460 lot of automated podcasts from sources that will, that will 883 00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:33,020 feed people information. So you listen to the notebook, LM, 884 00:58:33,380 --> 00:58:36,560 summary, eight minute summary of the no agenda podcast like, oh, 885 00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:39,440 you know, okay, I know what they talked about. 886 00:58:41,060 --> 00:58:44,020 Dave Jones: Do you have that? Can you play it? Yeah? CSP, 887 00:58:44,020 --> 00:58:46,720 Adam Curry: I haven't heard this, yeah. CSB, posted it. Hold 888 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:47,680 on a second, if 889 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,320 Dave Jones: you played it yesterday on no agenda, no, no, 890 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:50,860 no, 891 00:58:50,860 --> 00:58:53,200 Adam Curry: no, no. John actually said he wanted to hear 892 00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,200 more of those wacky podcasts. I said, Really, you want to hear 893 00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,800 more of that? Here we go. All right, everyone 894 00:58:59,860 --> 00:59:03,240 Unknown: buckle up, because today we're really diving deep 895 00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,540 into something pretty wild. I mean, this sounds like it could 896 00:59:06,540 --> 00:59:10,200 be straight out of a spy movie, but sadly, it's the real deal. 897 00:59:10,260 --> 00:59:12,780 Sounds intriguing. What's the topic today? We're talking 898 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,620 asymmetrical warfare, but not the kind you typically expect. 899 00:59:17,460 --> 00:59:18,480 More along the lines of 900 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,620 Dave Jones: this is pretty interesting, because you can 901 00:59:21,620 --> 00:59:22,580 hear breath. 902 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,520 Adam Curry: Oh yeah, no, they've got UMS in there. No, the voices 903 00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,060 are well done. I'm impressed with the voices, although this 904 00:59:29,060 --> 00:59:32,120 back and forth. Now, it's like in a podcast, you have to have 905 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,880 someone filling every single space with, yeah, okay, yeah, 906 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,760 interesting. Oh yeah, two gadgets 907 00:59:37,819 --> 00:59:41,259 Unknown: and international intrigue, exploding gadgets. Now 908 00:59:41,259 --> 00:59:43,839 that's something you don't hear every day. You got that right? 909 00:59:43,899 --> 00:59:46,599 We're taking a deep dive into a recent episode of this. You 910 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,040 Adam Curry: got that right? Bob, yeah. Listen, 911 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,560 Unknown: listen for a second cast. Episode 1696, to be 912 00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,740 precise. Adam curry and John C Dvorak, by 913 00:59:56,740 --> 00:59:59,620 Adam Curry: the way, perfect pronunciation of Dvorak that 914 00:59:59,620 --> 01:00:01,860 I've not. Ever heard that in an AI so far, 915 01:00:01,860 --> 01:00:04,080 Unknown: you know those guys who can sniff out a media narrative 916 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:05,640 from a mile away? Well, 917 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:07,980 Adam Curry: yeah, I know them. Oh yeah, I know them. They could 918 01:00:07,980 --> 01:00:10,980 sniff out a media narrative from a mile away. 919 01:00:11,100 --> 01:00:13,260 Dave Jones: Now, where did they get that from? Well, 920 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,900 Adam Curry: that's what's interesting, is how you know, is 921 01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:19,380 it, obviously, it's from words and phrases. That's why I said 922 01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:21,920 they're they're generally quite positive, got their fingers 923 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,960 Unknown: on the pulse of what's really going on, even if it's a 924 01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:25,460 little out there. Sometimes. 925 01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,880 What did they unearth this time? Well, this episode aired on 926 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,900 September 19, 2024 and let me tell you, it's been on my mind 927 01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:35,720 ever since. It all starts with some really strange 928 01:00:36,620 --> 01:00:37,640 Adam Curry: you need a life 929 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,260 Dave Jones: that I could do with that. Okay, so have you ever 930 01:00:41,260 --> 01:00:45,100 used GarageBand? Yeah, sure. Okay, so you know how, in the in 931 01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:48,940 the drummer, the the virtual drummer, how you can dial it up 932 01:00:48,940 --> 01:00:52,420 from like a one to 10 of how much you want that guy to freak 933 01:00:52,420 --> 01:00:54,760 out and play? Phil, yes, between those, that's 934 01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,220 Adam Curry: exactly what it is. Is that? Algo Yes. Phillip, 935 01:00:57,220 --> 01:00:58,060 Dave Jones: we need this. 936 01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,840 Adam Curry: But you know, so it doesn't give you any of the 937 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,560 nuance, any of the details, certainly none of the humor. 938 01:01:08,220 --> 01:01:12,660 Because I know that. I know that there's humor in our show, yeah, 939 01:01:12,660 --> 01:01:18,540 but I can see where we have a large segment of the population 940 01:01:18,540 --> 01:01:22,280 and they'll get bored of it, but who are just starve for info, 941 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,400 feed me information. That's why people listen at 1.5 they want 942 01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,220 to get more information more. So we listen to another podcast, 943 01:01:28,220 --> 01:01:30,920 listen more and listen I need more. Need more and more, and 944 01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:35,300 they're going to explode as info gluttony. Info gluttony. That's 945 01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:39,920 it. It's really what it is. Information, gluttony, gluttony. 946 01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:42,940 Dave Jones: There we go. The reason, the reason I, you know, 947 01:01:42,940 --> 01:01:46,540 and you know what those are the same people. I think that, think 948 01:01:46,540 --> 01:01:49,240 along the lines of what caused me to originally bring this, 949 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:55,660 bring this up about the entropy aspect, is because I think, and 950 01:01:55,660 --> 01:02:01,620 I think nerds fall victim to this. All all of us do in the 951 01:02:01,620 --> 01:02:07,440 nerd space is nerd space? Nerd space is we? We fall victim to 952 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:13,560 this idea that the more as long as the algorithm is good, then 953 01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:18,780 the more information you feed to it, the better the output that 954 01:02:18,780 --> 01:02:24,260 is not correct, right, the more the more youth, the more 955 01:02:24,260 --> 01:02:31,940 information is just like more weather or more of anything, the 956 01:02:31,940 --> 01:02:37,580 more of it you have, doesn't produce better outcomes. It 957 01:02:37,580 --> 01:02:43,420 produces more entropy, the more energy you put in, the more 958 01:02:43,420 --> 01:02:47,680 there is, the more, the higher the fall off. So it's just like 959 01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,460 going taking that airplane full of index cards and going higher 960 01:02:51,460 --> 01:02:55,180 in the air, what you're going to get is not a higher likelihood 961 01:02:55,180 --> 01:02:57,760 of a good outcome. You're going to get a higher likelihood of 962 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:02,940 broader chaos. And I think we just fall victim to that sort of 963 01:03:02,940 --> 01:03:08,040 thinking, because we think that, because I think we're lulled 964 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:14,580 into this from when we see AI doing what it's doing, and it 965 01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:19,020 produces impressive results sometimes, but we think it's 966 01:03:19,020 --> 01:03:22,880 because we fed it so much more volume of information that it 967 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,240 got quote, unquote smarter, yeah, but what happened is the 968 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:31,580 guard rails got tighter, or the information was actually reduced 969 01:03:31,580 --> 01:03:36,500 to a smaller set where it had less to contend with. I just 970 01:03:36,500 --> 01:03:42,040 don't I think this whole idea that that more gets you back, 971 01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:46,300 gets you better results, is just, I think it's fit from a 972 01:03:46,300 --> 01:03:49,000 physics standpoint and a metaphysics standpoint, it's 973 01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:53,140 just not true, like the the more information. Let's say that 974 01:03:53,140 --> 01:03:57,280 Twitter, instead of, I don't know what, how many posts it's 975 01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:02,700 got at any given time. Let's, let's say 150 billion posts, the 976 01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:06,360 idea that instead of, if it had, instead of 150 million, 977 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,000 Adam Curry: 300 billion, it would be that much better. It 978 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:09,420 did, 979 01:04:09,420 --> 01:04:11,460 Dave Jones: the search somehow would be better. Yeah, no, 980 01:04:11,460 --> 01:04:14,520 that's not true. It would be worse. Yeah. This same with 981 01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:19,320 podcasting. If, if you just had more podcasts, you would have 982 01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:23,420 better, like, be able to find we know this is not true. It makes 983 01:04:23,420 --> 01:04:26,120 everything harder, not better. Yeah, 984 01:04:27,739 --> 01:04:30,199 Adam Curry: so I want to talk about that because I have some 985 01:04:30,199 --> 01:04:33,859 thoughts about our previous conversation, and I'm just 986 01:04:33,859 --> 01:04:36,859 looking at the clock because everyone's all all jacked up and 987 01:04:36,859 --> 01:04:41,199 nervous about having to get you out on time. It's, it's very 988 01:04:41,199 --> 01:04:43,659 it's very unnerving. It really is. You know, people are posting 989 01:04:43,659 --> 01:04:46,479 only 30 minutes left. Oh my god. We got to hurry up. Got to move 990 01:04:46,479 --> 01:04:49,419 this along. Got to get this train. So I also want to play a 991 01:04:49,419 --> 01:04:53,199 song. It's a short song. It's a real short song. Only 247, go, 992 01:04:53,259 --> 01:04:57,099 go, go. We got to get the song going. I was on the 33rd episode 993 01:04:57,099 --> 01:05:02,219 of into the doorful verse earlier. Week, which was 994 01:05:02,219 --> 01:05:05,639 fantastic. I love those guys. And then they played me two 995 01:05:05,639 --> 01:05:08,699 versions of a song, and I had to choose which one I like better, 996 01:05:08,699 --> 01:05:11,219 which like, Dude, can you put someone on the spot? That's 997 01:05:11,219 --> 01:05:15,839 that's really, really hard to do, but they sir, TJ, the 998 01:05:15,839 --> 01:05:19,079 raffle. Did get it posted up, and everything's good in time 999 01:05:19,079 --> 01:05:21,439 for the board meeting. So I want to make sure that we play it 1000 01:05:21,859 --> 01:05:28,219 because it is a banger. And remember, you can boost these 1001 01:05:28,219 --> 01:05:30,799 songs live as we're doing everything here in the 1002 01:05:30,799 --> 01:05:33,799 boardroom, or go back and boost them on your modern podcast up. 1003 01:05:33,799 --> 01:05:37,999 Here's the door fulls. This is disco swag on podcasting 2.0 1004 01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:40,900 Unknown: he was fighting 1005 01:05:49,780 --> 01:06:02,040 for you make the first move, but It's different with you, around 1006 01:06:09,420 --> 01:06:24,980 your waist don't cost it. I can chase. Show me what I need to. 1007 01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,060 Show me you'll be inside. Take the ball right. Show me what I 1008 01:06:32,060 --> 01:06:32,240 miss 1009 01:06:33,260 --> 01:06:40,600 before I mess with you. With me slow and I'll take you where you 1010 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:41,380 want to 1011 01:07:02,619 --> 01:07:11,039 go? Show me what you got, show me what you got. Girl, show me 1012 01:07:11,039 --> 01:07:19,739 what you got. Show me what you got. Girl, show me what you got. 1013 01:07:19,739 --> 01:07:20,179 You God, 1014 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:41,620 would you say? Hand. 1015 01:08:02,739 --> 01:08:08,039 Adam Curry: Show me it darfels, disco, swag, and that's what I 1016 01:08:08,039 --> 01:08:11,399 thought first, as well. Boardroom, I thought, wow, 1017 01:08:11,399 --> 01:08:13,079 that's like a Bruno Mars song. 1018 01:08:14,159 --> 01:08:15,359 Dave Jones: Is that TJ singing? 1019 01:08:16,500 --> 01:08:23,480 Adam Curry: No, I don't think so. Whoa. What happened? No, 1020 01:08:23,480 --> 01:08:27,140 that's sir Spencer is boosting. He boosted 33,333 1021 01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,819 Dave Jones: No, well, you hit the magic number. Yeah. 1022 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,580 Adam Curry: They had another less busy mix, which I thought 1023 01:08:34,580 --> 01:08:37,100 sounded too much like Bruno Mars, but I would recommend 1024 01:08:37,100 --> 01:08:41,920 Bruno Mars record this song. Oh yeah, that's great. Get the, 1025 01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:44,680 yeah, that's what. That would put some coin in their pocket, 1026 01:08:46,119 --> 01:08:48,219 Dave Jones: but you had, but he has to only accept Bitcoin, 1027 01:08:48,219 --> 01:08:49,359 yeah? Well, obviously, 1028 01:08:51,159 --> 01:08:52,599 Adam Curry: okay, we don't have a lot of time. 1029 01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,100 Dave Jones: This is, this sucks. No, I hate this. What's okay, 1030 01:08:57,280 --> 01:08:59,380 never pre announce this again. 1031 01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:01,679 Adam Curry: Well, but it would be in the back of my mind 1032 01:09:01,679 --> 01:09:06,839 anyway. You know, you blew your wad on on images. 1033 01:09:07,979 --> 01:09:10,379 Dave Jones: Well, I mean, how could you not 1034 01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:15,779 Adam Curry: Whoa, hello. This penny dropped on that one 1035 01:09:16,799 --> 01:09:21,439 because I was listening to PWR pod news weekly review, power, 1036 01:09:21,919 --> 01:09:27,079 and so you haven't heard it yet? No, no. But so they were talking 1037 01:09:27,079 --> 01:09:30,799 about podcast portals, and which is kind of what we were talking 1038 01:09:30,799 --> 01:09:34,579 about, you know, on the last show. And it was based upon a 1039 01:09:34,579 --> 01:09:37,519 quote from Rachel Maddow, and I like that. It's based on a quote 1040 01:09:37,519 --> 01:09:41,499 from Rachel Maddow, because I'm not a fan, really not a fan, but 1041 01:09:41,499 --> 01:09:46,659 that kind of pushes me to think about, okay, how can we make 1042 01:09:46,659 --> 01:09:49,719 something that Rachel Maddow would like? And I'll just repeat 1043 01:09:49,719 --> 01:09:53,019 her statement in the Hollywood Reporter when asked about what's 1044 01:09:53,019 --> 01:09:57,399 the problem with podcasting, and she said, None of the apps are 1045 01:09:57,399 --> 01:10:00,899 great. We don't just need curation. And charts, we need 1046 01:10:00,899 --> 01:10:05,279 rational organization and a merit, meritocratic way for the 1047 01:10:05,279 --> 01:10:08,459 best and most relevant shows and episodes to circulate 1048 01:10:08,639 --> 01:10:11,759 efficiently. It's hard for me to understand why we're still 1049 01:10:11,759 --> 01:10:15,239 saddled with such uniformly clunky, unintuitive user 1050 01:10:15,239 --> 01:10:21,379 interfaces at this point. Now, I do not believe that she actually 1051 01:10:21,379 --> 01:10:25,999 wants a merit, meritocratic way for the best, the most well, the 1052 01:10:25,999 --> 01:10:30,439 best shows to pop up, because if Tucker Carlson popped up, she'd 1053 01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,439 throw up on her podcast app. And 1054 01:10:33,440 --> 01:10:36,560 Dave Jones: none of us actually want that. We all, none of us 1055 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:41,080 want meritocracy. We want we want our stuff exactly, exactly. 1056 01:10:41,079 --> 01:10:44,619 Adam Curry: And, you know, all the big apps, you know, I'm sure 1057 01:10:44,619 --> 01:10:48,159 Spotify tries to do this. You know, YouTube obviously has 1058 01:10:48,159 --> 01:10:52,599 their recommendation engine. No one within the sound of my voice 1059 01:10:52,599 --> 01:10:56,799 will ever be able to create a per user algo that's running non 1060 01:10:56,799 --> 01:11:00,359 stop and be able to afford it. And, you know, and somehow 1061 01:11:00,359 --> 01:11:04,319 magically put things in the right place. But as I was saying 1062 01:11:04,319 --> 01:11:08,999 about podcast apps, maybe it's time for some apps. Maybe you 1063 01:11:08,999 --> 01:11:12,059 keep your existing app, maybe you make a second version, which 1064 01:11:12,059 --> 01:11:17,579 means you can keep the same basic code base. But based on my 1065 01:11:18,419 --> 01:11:23,179 general feeling, the future of media is small. Is it not an 1066 01:11:23,179 --> 01:11:27,859 idea that some podcast apps specialize now you still have 1067 01:11:27,859 --> 01:11:31,219 everything available. But why wouldn't just like, you know, 1068 01:11:31,219 --> 01:11:35,719 all cars get you from A to B, yet, lots of people buy Ferraris 1069 01:11:35,719 --> 01:11:39,379 for certain reasons. Some people buy electric vehicles. I mean, 1070 01:11:39,379 --> 01:11:41,619 there's all different. They all have the same basic 1071 01:11:41,619 --> 01:11:44,499 functionality, and you can put people in it and take them 1072 01:11:44,499 --> 01:11:47,799 somewhere, people and stuff, just like there's lots of cable 1073 01:11:47,799 --> 01:11:51,639 channels for different things. We've got sports channels. Is it 1074 01:11:51,639 --> 01:12:00,479 not an idea to build an app around a community? It can be 1075 01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:06,059 location as well, by the way, or around a genre, and really try 1076 01:12:06,059 --> 01:12:10,619 and build that out to delight one segment of the audience. And 1077 01:12:10,619 --> 01:12:16,859 I'm going back to fountain, they have chosen as a very successful 1078 01:12:16,859 --> 01:12:24,259 app. They have chosen Nasser and Bitcoin, and that choice has 1079 01:12:24,259 --> 01:12:29,719 alienated a certain percentage of people, but it has delighted 1080 01:12:30,259 --> 01:12:31,939 another segment of people, 1081 01:12:32,539 --> 01:12:36,619 Dave Jones: same with true fans that they've chosen specific to 1082 01:12:36,619 --> 01:12:40,539 focus on, on pay, micro payments, which has alienated 1083 01:12:40,539 --> 01:12:42,039 some people, but delighted others. 1084 01:12:42,399 --> 01:12:45,519 Adam Curry: Wavelake, they have an app which is, for all intents 1085 01:12:45,519 --> 01:12:52,059 and purposes, a podcast app, but they really feature music. Ellen 1086 01:12:52,059 --> 01:12:56,979 beats is a podcast app that features music and podcasts that 1087 01:12:56,979 --> 01:13:02,459 play music you see where I'm going, so if your interest is in 1088 01:13:02,519 --> 01:13:08,939 sports, why not have an app that highlights sports? Podcasts, you 1089 01:13:08,939 --> 01:13:13,559 know, make some bold decisions. Recommend it has to be something 1090 01:13:13,559 --> 01:13:16,679 you're interested in that's a developer. Everyone has an 1091 01:13:16,679 --> 01:13:21,619 interest. So if it's technology, wow, I think I would, I would 1092 01:13:21,619 --> 01:13:26,359 even open up a separate app, just to get to a technology 1093 01:13:26,659 --> 01:13:31,399 offering that says, hey, the latest episode of ATP is out. 1094 01:13:31,639 --> 01:13:34,939 And I'd like to know who, who is listening to that, and what 1095 01:13:34,939 --> 01:13:37,879 those people have to say. You know, this is where maybe the 1096 01:13:37,939 --> 01:13:42,879 Sam's activity streams come into play. Make that the entrance 1097 01:13:42,879 --> 01:13:46,239 into your app, and people will probably use it for other 1098 01:13:46,239 --> 01:13:50,799 podcasts as well. But in general, people listen to a 1099 01:13:50,799 --> 01:13:57,819 certain kind of podcasts, and it may not be a bad idea to create. 1100 01:13:57,819 --> 01:14:00,899 You know, Rachel Maddow, she really wants an app that 1101 01:14:00,899 --> 01:14:04,379 features her, features a whole bunch of libtards. I'm sorry, 1102 01:14:04,559 --> 01:14:08,759 liberals, you know, you don't want to, you don't you want to 1103 01:14:08,759 --> 01:14:12,179 suppress certain things, but you want to build a community just 1104 01:14:12,179 --> 01:14:16,979 like, like mastodon. I have a podcast index, dot, social 1105 01:14:16,979 --> 01:14:20,959 login, and I actually block a whole bunch of others. In fact, 1106 01:14:20,959 --> 01:14:25,099 I block some specific that are related to no agenda. I don't 1107 01:14:25,099 --> 01:14:28,639 want people posting to me about no agenda stuff on podcast 1108 01:14:28,639 --> 01:14:33,199 index, dot social. I have a different Mastodon for that, and 1109 01:14:33,199 --> 01:14:37,099 I go and I visit both equally every single day. And, you know, 1110 01:14:37,099 --> 01:14:43,059 depending on my mood, it seems like such a logical step for 1111 01:14:43,059 --> 01:14:48,459 someone to make, because we have enough boxy cars. We've all got 1112 01:14:48,459 --> 01:14:51,159 a car, and it looks a little different on the outside, but 1113 01:14:51,159 --> 01:14:55,419 it's not really appealing to me to the kind kind of vehicle I 1114 01:14:55,419 --> 01:15:00,779 want to be seen in and seen as using. Does that. Makes sense? 1115 01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:07,620 Dave Jones: Yeah. So you're, you could, I'm trying to think about 1116 01:15:07,620 --> 01:15:12,960 this in like a on the ground term, like, if somebody makes a 1117 01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:19,860 podcast app, they could then make instead of having one app, 1118 01:15:19,860 --> 01:15:22,940 let's say they did something crazy and made five apps, each 1119 01:15:22,940 --> 01:15:24,320 with a specific focus. 1120 01:15:24,380 --> 01:15:27,260 Adam Curry: Well, why make five? Why make one that, you know 1121 01:15:27,260 --> 01:15:32,300 something about everybody has that. That's the mistake, you 1122 01:15:32,300 --> 01:15:36,620 know, I think, okay, if there was a, let's keep it very small 1123 01:15:36,620 --> 01:15:39,980 and very simple. If there was a podcast app that only that you 1124 01:15:39,980 --> 01:15:44,020 can get anything you want in it. Okay, you can search and you can 1125 01:15:44,020 --> 01:15:47,140 subscribe to anything you want. But when I open that up, it's 1126 01:15:47,140 --> 01:15:51,820 saying, Wow, the latest upbeats just dropped. Here's a special 1127 01:15:51,820 --> 01:15:57,880 project that, oh curry is doing another boostagram ball. Here's 1128 01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:04,380 a special, curated Ainsley Costello album that is, you 1129 01:16:04,380 --> 01:16:08,400 know, detox radio, or whatever it's called, focuses on music 1130 01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:13,320 podcasts that have value for value music. I would open that 1131 01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:16,980 specifically for all the recommendations and all the 1132 01:16:16,980 --> 01:16:20,100 beauty that's in there. Now maybe down and it should 1133 01:16:20,100 --> 01:16:24,740 federate with some other app, you know, the the sports app. So 1134 01:16:24,740 --> 01:16:29,240 I could still get user stuff, but make it a community based 1135 01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:35,360 app for a particular topic or genre or something. You know, we 1136 01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:39,080 all use different apps, and people who you people who use 1137 01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:42,520 podcast, they're listening I like listening to Lex Fridman, 1138 01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:47,620 Joe Rogan, you know, long form podcast. Make it that. Here's 1139 01:16:47,620 --> 01:16:50,920 the latest debt guest. Here's who's coming up. You know what 1140 01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:51,520 I'm saying? 1141 01:16:52,300 --> 01:16:56,020 Dave Jones: I remember back. I remember back a long time ago. I 1142 01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:03,660 don't even remember what year this would have been, maybe, I 1143 01:17:03,660 --> 01:17:07,020 don't know it was. It had to been very early in podcasting. 1144 01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:12,420 You had, you had radio personalities like Rush 1145 01:17:12,420 --> 01:17:16,740 Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, these kind, these types. And what they 1146 01:17:16,740 --> 01:17:21,740 did was they had their each had their own app, and you would, 1147 01:17:21,980 --> 01:17:25,580 you would install the app. And, I mean, it was just a podcast 1148 01:17:25,580 --> 01:17:30,140 app, yeah, but it was their app, and you would install the app, 1149 01:17:30,140 --> 01:17:34,100 and that's how you listened to their show, yes, if you wanted 1150 01:17:34,100 --> 01:17:37,640 to listen to it on your phone or whatever, right? Or on their 1151 01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:42,880 website, you know, that kind of thing. And so this, like, there 1152 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:49,060 we've, kind of, we've, we've lost that idea. And I think it 1153 01:17:49,060 --> 01:17:52,120 made a lot of sense to lose that idea, because it's like, well, I 1154 01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:54,700 don't want to have to go to five different places to listen to 1155 01:17:54,700 --> 01:17:59,620 five different things. But then, since we lost that idea, we also 1156 01:17:59,620 --> 01:18:04,380 lost some of of the benefits of that 1157 01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,440 Adam Curry: well, without disclosing because it's too 1158 01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:11,040 early yet, the project we're working on, we're doing exactly 1159 01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:16,560 that. We're doing exactly what I described on a local basis. 1160 01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:24,080 Would you agree? Oh, for sure. Okay, it's delighting me. It's 1161 01:18:24,980 --> 01:18:30,080 delighting me. I'm like, This is so cool. You know, there's, this 1162 01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:33,140 is an area that I have interest in, and I'm looking at all these 1163 01:18:33,140 --> 01:18:36,080 podcasts, and there's curation going on. There's people 1164 01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:41,560 recommending things to me, entities and and I'm delighted 1165 01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:46,120 in it and and I know when I want when I'm in this mode, which is 1166 01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:50,080 often, I'll, I'll use this app, which in this case is, you know, 1167 01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:53,860 it's for all intents and purposes, an app. I'm just 1168 01:18:53,860 --> 01:18:57,880 saying that we have all these apps, and they're all doing the 1169 01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:02,040 same thing with some variations of style and look, but it's an 1170 01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:06,060 inbox, and I've already been through my my issues on that. I 1171 01:19:06,060 --> 01:19:11,220 think it's time. And here's someone literally saying, How 1172 01:19:11,220 --> 01:19:15,000 come I can't have an app that basically shows my stuff? 1173 01:19:15,060 --> 01:19:18,840 Because I'm Rachel Maddow, and I want relevant stuff and 1174 01:19:18,900 --> 01:19:23,180 episodes, and also episodes, not just, here's another podcast, 1175 01:19:23,180 --> 01:19:27,320 usually, oh, this is the late curated they're looking for 1176 01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:33,440 someone who's into it to create a universe that, yes, you'd need 1177 01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:38,300 some meritocracy. But do you really, I mean someone, if 1178 01:19:38,300 --> 01:19:44,680 you're a developer and you have a if you have a hobby, you know, 1179 01:19:44,740 --> 01:19:47,800 a genre or something that you're interested in, why not create an 1180 01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:51,040 app that highlights that stuff you're already liking it so you 1181 01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,440 will be perfectly suited 1182 01:19:54,640 --> 01:20:02,460 Dave Jones: to that's Go ahead. That's like, I. Uh, it, it's 1183 01:20:02,460 --> 01:20:05,460 like that idea we talked about a few minutes ago, where it the 1184 01:20:05,460 --> 01:20:08,880 idea that you put more, you make more available, you put more in, 1185 01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,880 you get better results out. Sometimes that's in like, that's 1186 01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:18,000 just not the case. Like an app and like so true, true fans. 1187 01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:22,340 When true fans launched, he, he made a decision to launch, I 1188 01:20:22,340 --> 01:20:25,820 think, with, like, Was it like 5000 podcasts or something like 1189 01:20:25,820 --> 01:20:28,520 that? Was a very small number initially, at the very at the 1190 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:32,000 beginning. And there was something really refreshing 1191 01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:32,600 about that 1192 01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:38,360 Adam Curry: I can see, I can see true fans being fans. Okay, so I 1193 01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:41,560 want to be a fan, and in this case of artists, because Sam's 1194 01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:46,360 got concert tickets and merch and all this stuff, focus on 1195 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:53,680 that. Focus only on that. Be, be excel in that area. And people 1196 01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:56,860 can always, you can always, I also want to subscribe to, you 1197 01:20:56,860 --> 01:21:01,440 know, to Tucker Carlson, okay, fine. You can do that. But 1198 01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:07,200 getting getting something that excites people to use it, I 1199 01:21:07,200 --> 01:21:10,260 think they will flock to a podcast like that. If there was 1200 01:21:10,260 --> 01:21:15,900 a podcast app that only showed video podcasts, nothing else, I 1201 01:21:15,900 --> 01:21:18,720 would probably use like, Oh, this is where I get my videos. 1202 01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:24,440 Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, for sure, that's yeah. I mean, like 1203 01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:30,800 medium, medium centric podcast apps, like we only get, we only 1204 01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:31,400 do music, 1205 01:21:31,459 --> 01:21:34,639 Adam Curry: yeah. How about audio books? I mean, there's 1206 01:21:34,639 --> 01:21:37,939 nothing that says you can't just have an audio book podcast app. 1207 01:21:37,939 --> 01:21:41,679 Why not? What do you got to lose? 1208 01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:47,560 Dave Jones: I agree, backslay. I think I think 1209 01:21:49,780 --> 01:21:50,500 Adam Curry: backslash. 1210 01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:54,460 Dave Jones: So I agree. I like, I like, yeah, no, I think this 1211 01:21:54,460 --> 01:22:01,440 is I think this is good. We every something has to break the 1212 01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:05,460 mold, I think, because we've just got so many apps that look 1213 01:22:05,460 --> 01:22:12,600 the same and, and I think, I think it's, you know, Oscar did 1214 01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:18,720 something different, you know, by going all in on on the 1215 01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:21,860 Bitcoin and Oscar side of Things, true fans did something 1216 01:22:21,860 --> 01:22:24,380 different with the PWA and activity pub and all these kinds 1217 01:22:24,380 --> 01:22:28,700 of things. Like, there's, there's some of I think if 1218 01:22:28,700 --> 01:22:32,120 you're, if you're wanting to break into some of these 1219 01:22:32,180 --> 01:22:35,480 incumbent areas, I think you just have to do something 1220 01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:39,140 different. Well, you know, because people are habitual, 1221 01:22:39,140 --> 01:22:42,640 people just are less. Yes, yes. If nothing changes, to break you 1222 01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:46,600 out of that mental model, if you don't see a different thing, 1223 01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:49,180 you're just going to keep plugging away with the same 1224 01:22:49,180 --> 01:22:51,520 thing. Pocket Cast, overcast, Apple podcast, 1225 01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:55,780 Adam Curry: yes, yes, yes. And so when you So, Rachel Maddow is 1226 01:22:55,780 --> 01:23:00,780 very liberal, left political talk. So you don't just want to 1227 01:23:00,780 --> 01:23:04,680 do an MSNBC app. You want to do all kinds of liberal left 1228 01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:10,980 political talk and run your own algo on what or put your own 1229 01:23:10,980 --> 01:23:14,520 personality into it, whatever you want to bubble to the top, 1230 01:23:15,420 --> 01:23:19,800 you know, and have your users be able to create playlists and of 1231 01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,660 episodes and all kinds of things that they and you will get a big 1232 01:23:23,660 --> 01:23:28,040 audience, I think, much bigger than I'm here, everything for 1233 01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:29,060 everybody. App, 1234 01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:34,459 Dave Jones: if somebody created the, if somebody created today, 1235 01:23:34,879 --> 01:23:46,419 a podcast app that was called Pro prog, prog casts, you know, 1236 01:23:46,419 --> 01:23:50,439 there was all a bunch of progressive liberal shows, and 1237 01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:53,559 that's all it was. And they released that on the App Store. 1238 01:23:54,099 --> 01:23:57,639 They would, it would be immediately successful. Yes, you 1239 01:23:57,639 --> 01:24:02,819 could have 5 million downloads within six months, because 1240 01:24:02,819 --> 01:24:07,979 that's, it's like, that's where you're breaking the mold, and 1241 01:24:07,979 --> 01:24:10,739 you're and you're going, you're lean, you're sort of like 1242 01:24:10,739 --> 01:24:16,919 leaning towards this, this thing that is our, that people are, I 1243 01:24:16,919 --> 01:24:19,799 think, okay, maybe that's part of maybe that's what it is. 1244 01:24:19,799 --> 01:24:25,819 Maybe it's that culture is going in these certain directions, 1245 01:24:25,819 --> 01:24:28,639 like it's been going, you know, like, obviously, the political 1246 01:24:28,639 --> 01:24:31,819 divides have been getting starker that, you know, if it's 1247 01:24:31,819 --> 01:24:35,299 a spectrum for if it's even a spectrum, I don't think it is. 1248 01:24:35,299 --> 01:24:37,279 But if it's a left, right spectrum, you know, you got 1249 01:24:37,519 --> 01:24:41,499 people are going harder left, harder right. It could be just 1250 01:24:41,499 --> 01:24:46,119 because they're trying to define they're trying to carve out 1251 01:24:46,119 --> 01:24:51,339 their their place in all this, in all of this, in the midst of 1252 01:24:51,339 --> 01:24:56,379 an ocean of information that that just seems to be drowning 1253 01:24:56,439 --> 01:25:00,839 them. And so they're like, Okay, I'm hard left. It could just be 1254 01:25:00,899 --> 01:25:04,859 a mental response, a psychological response, to say, 1255 01:25:05,099 --> 01:25:11,039 I need space. I'm, I'm gonna set up my camp over here in this 1256 01:25:11,039 --> 01:25:18,239 segment of of the social of social society, because it's too 1257 01:25:18,239 --> 01:25:21,019 big. It's too much. I'm getting inundated all the time. And I 1258 01:25:21,019 --> 01:25:25,459 need, I need a I need space. And, you know, like, because 1259 01:25:25,459 --> 01:25:28,399 we're all carving out these pieces of the of the of the 1260 01:25:28,399 --> 01:25:33,019 world for ourselves. And if you sort of, sort of lean toward 1261 01:25:33,019 --> 01:25:37,999 that with a podcast app and say, Okay, well, you're, you're 1262 01:25:37,999 --> 01:25:40,419 hanging out of you're hanging out over here, well, here's this 1263 01:25:40,419 --> 01:25:44,139 thing. Some people take that refuge in sports, exactly, 1264 01:25:44,140 --> 01:25:46,540 Adam Curry: sports gambling. I mean, you name it. 1265 01:25:48,399 --> 01:25:51,219 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, the no agenda community is 1266 01:25:51,219 --> 01:25:54,579 the same way. I mean, that's, that's a community that is 1267 01:25:54,579 --> 01:26:00,039 carved out, sort of like, you know that not or like, a borders 1268 01:26:00,039 --> 01:26:02,339 for itself, where you just like, here's, here's where you know 1269 01:26:02,339 --> 01:26:05,039 you can, you can list off a dozen shows that are no agenda 1270 01:26:05,039 --> 01:26:08,459 related shows, and it's just like, is, yep, that could be the 1271 01:26:08,459 --> 01:26:08,939 same thing. 1272 01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:11,639 Adam Curry: I'm gonna thank some people so I can get you out kind 1273 01:26:11,639 --> 01:26:15,239 of on time. Okay, by the way, very bad idea for everyone to 1274 01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:17,279 keep posting. How many minutes left? 1275 01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:19,020 Dave Jones: I'm so stressed right now. 1276 01:26:19,980 --> 01:26:23,600 Adam Curry: Y'all gotta stop. I'm stressed too. 3000 SATs from 1277 01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,060 a Chris, you know, he says on the topic of getting away from 1278 01:26:26,060 --> 01:26:29,420 mailbox zero podcast apps, I'd give anything for a podcasting 1279 01:26:29,420 --> 01:26:32,840 2.0 app that was exactly like an inbox. Move through the queue 1280 01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:36,020 with swipe actions, quickly assigned episodes to folders, ie 1281 01:26:36,020 --> 01:26:39,560 playlists, mail rules based on sender text in the title or show 1282 01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:43,660 notes. Get some, get close, but none achieve this. Well, that's 1283 01:26:43,660 --> 01:26:46,420 another tactic that's not exactly I don't want any talking 1284 01:26:46,420 --> 01:26:47,440 about I don't want it either. 1285 01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:49,599 Dave Jones: I don't want any of that. I want a big I want a big 1286 01:26:49,599 --> 01:26:52,479 stream of things coming by. And if something catches my eye, I 1287 01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:55,119 click it and I listen to it. If I happen to miss something that 1288 01:26:55,119 --> 01:27:00,299 I would have liked, I'm going to depend on my on a on somebody in 1289 01:27:00,299 --> 01:27:03,479 my community to send it to me later. 33,333 1290 01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,580 Adam Curry: from Sir Spencer, love that disco swag. He says 1291 01:27:08,580 --> 01:27:12,300 the dorfels have been at the forefront of the DIY d mu scene, 1292 01:27:12,300 --> 01:27:15,600 and we love it. D mu for decentralized music. 1293 01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:19,440 Dave Jones: Jen, stop it. Boober booberry with 3333 1294 01:27:20,460 --> 01:27:22,400 Adam Curry: does anyone else ever get that itch in the back 1295 01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:24,740 of their throat that only inevitable heat death of the 1296 01:27:24,740 --> 01:27:30,500 universe could scratch? Yes, every day. 333. From salty 1297 01:27:30,500 --> 01:27:33,920 crayon. Keep helipad. Eric. PP, yes, of course, he will. 17,776 1298 01:27:35,420 --> 01:27:38,780 from blueberry big freedom. Boost. MP, for his artwork would 1299 01:27:38,780 --> 01:27:41,740 be amazing. The resolution of the art would be amazing. Clear 1300 01:27:41,740 --> 01:27:44,920 your schedule, by the way, for Sunday, September 22 tune in 1301 01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:48,040 after no agenda to catch the satellite skirmish. Autumn rust 1302 01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,400 a day, low value for value, Battle Royale. New bands, new 1303 01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,220 emcees, new boost animations. Boost the bands and crew 1304 01:27:54,220 --> 01:27:59,800 directly. And watch lit at live is lit.com Yes. Well, there's a 1305 01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:03,840 whole nother app I would use for that, for a community like that, 1306 01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:09,660 these laughs. He says, October, surprise coming soon. Yes. Mike 1307 01:28:09,660 --> 01:28:13,920 Dell 1701, Star Trek, boost, listening on my new flip phone. 1308 01:28:13,980 --> 01:28:19,620 LLP, what does llap mean? Llap? 1309 01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,220 Unknown: I don't know what that means yet. My new flip, flown 1310 01:28:22,220 --> 01:28:23,660 Lou, yeah, 3000 1311 01:28:24,079 --> 01:28:26,299 Adam Curry: from Chris. You know, has anyone considered coin 1312 01:28:26,299 --> 01:28:30,259 os.io as a podcaster. Wallet sign up is just choosing a 1313 01:28:30,259 --> 01:28:34,519 username, no email needed. Even open source so someone could add 1314 01:28:34,519 --> 01:28:37,879 in key send or use the lightning address. They give you an A 1315 01:28:37,879 --> 01:28:41,619 nostr wallet connects like Albi, uses custodial but super easy, 1316 01:28:41,619 --> 01:28:45,279 slick PWA. Can also send someone a pre funded wallet link that 1317 01:28:45,279 --> 01:28:48,339 just works, or have to take a look at that and no idea what 1318 01:28:48,339 --> 01:28:53,739 that is. 6341, from chimp. Life is serious. Life is depressing. 1319 01:28:53,799 --> 01:28:56,379 Embrace the void, okay, 1320 01:28:57,159 --> 01:28:57,819 Unknown: jeez. 1321 01:29:00,220 --> 01:29:03,060 Adam Curry: And then we got a couple of test boosts, 1000 from 1322 01:29:03,060 --> 01:29:08,580 Chad F, who was boosting the depressing song, Nate Jonathan, 1323 01:29:08,760 --> 01:29:12,720 don't worry. 1234, from Dr Scott. Boosts are failing to the 1324 01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,540 boost bot figured, yeah, we fixed that during the show. We 1325 01:29:15,540 --> 01:29:18,060 opened up a channel. You just run out of liquidity. So the 1326 01:29:18,060 --> 01:29:23,360 boost bot is back. 1234, from Dr Scott boosty mctess, boost, and 1327 01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:29,000 I think Did you get the pastor combs, boost, you might not have 1328 01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:34,220 that one. I'll read it because that's just before the 1329 01:29:34,220 --> 01:29:39,080 delimiter. 3333 from Pastor combs. He says, God be with you, 1330 01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:41,980 brothers. Pasty cope, Pastor combsy Here, I'm sure you've 1331 01:29:41,980 --> 01:29:44,680 I've heard from others, but Fountain has been basically 1332 01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:47,440 unusable since the update. I know they're working hard, but 1333 01:29:47,440 --> 01:29:50,260 it's been really hard to stick with it. Audio constantly stops, 1334 01:29:50,440 --> 01:29:53,860 and that's if you can get it to even play. Workaround has has 1335 01:29:53,860 --> 01:29:57,520 even to delete all episodes uninstalled and reinstall even 1336 01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:00,300 using the test flight version isn't working. Need is. To say 1337 01:30:00,300 --> 01:30:02,940 it's super tedious. Currently using fountain to boost and pod 1338 01:30:02,940 --> 01:30:07,020 verse to listen hashtag, growing pains, yes, these are very tough 1339 01:30:07,020 --> 01:30:10,440 times. We're seeing the same thing with Marco with overcast. 1340 01:30:11,220 --> 01:30:15,600 This very difficult when you do a big update on an app. So stay 1341 01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:17,040 with it. Give him some grace. 1342 01:30:18,420 --> 01:30:21,380 Dave Jones: Yeah, Oscar sent us a message saying that, I mean, 1343 01:30:21,380 --> 01:30:25,700 it was basically a perfect storm for him. They did a big update. 1344 01:30:26,120 --> 01:30:29,240 That update had some bugs, and so they went and they fixed the 1345 01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:33,440 bugs. But then, in the meantime, they deprecated one of the 1346 01:30:33,440 --> 01:30:36,320 libraries, one of the, like, audio libraries that he was 1347 01:30:36,320 --> 01:30:40,720 using and they wouldn't. And so he has, he's like, having to, if 1348 01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:45,340 I understood him correctly, he's having to, in a mad dash, recode 1349 01:30:45,340 --> 01:30:48,280 part of his audio engine from scratch. Oh, yeah, that's 1350 01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:51,640 horrible. I mean, he's worked. I mean, he's going as fast as he 1351 01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:53,920 can. He's, he's, he sounded stressed. 1352 01:30:54,340 --> 01:30:57,760 Adam Curry: Mike Dell, Mike Dell clarifies, uh, LLP, live long 1353 01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:03,240 and prosper. Uh, flip phone is a course s 22 Oh yes, that's a 1354 01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:04,800 very robust flip phone. We've 1355 01:31:06,060 --> 01:31:09,360 Dave Jones: got some PayPals. We've got starting off. We've 1356 01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:14,640 got the guys at bus sprout and the girls there too. They all 1357 01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:16,320 pitched in and they sent us $1,000 1358 01:31:18,300 --> 01:31:22,040 Unknown: shot caller. 20 is Blaze only, Impala 1359 01:31:22,100 --> 01:31:25,340 Adam Curry: keeping the 2.0 chimney smoking. Thank you. 1360 01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:27,800 Thank you both sprouts. Thank you very much. 1361 01:31:28,100 --> 01:31:30,920 Dave Jones: We need working here. That's right. It's all 1362 01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:31,400 white smoke. 1363 01:31:31,399 --> 01:31:33,559 Adam Curry: That's right. Thank you. Thank you very much, very 1364 01:31:33,559 --> 01:31:34,039 much. 1365 01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:40,240 Dave Jones: Gene Liverman sent us five bucks and he he is a new 1366 01:31:40,240 --> 01:31:48,160 subscriber. He did automatic payment. All right, welcome. Is 1367 01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:52,600 your Defragmenter fully charged? Because we I think you need to 1368 01:31:52,660 --> 01:31:55,660 Adam Curry: use it again. Yeah, hold on. It's plugged in. Go for 1369 01:31:55,660 --> 01:31:59,980 Dave Jones: it. Okay? It's uh, OYSTEIN bear, $5 a month, 1370 01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:00,900 automatic payment. 1371 01:32:03,780 --> 01:32:05,520 Adam Curry: Thank you. OYSTEIN, appreciate that. 1372 01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:08,400 Dave Jones: Did I say that name? Right? Was that? 1373 01:32:09,660 --> 01:32:12,600 Adam Curry: Yeah, oyster lost 1374 01:32:16,500 --> 01:32:18,960 Dave Jones: my place. Where are we at? Where are we at with 1375 01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:23,960 booster grams, I got a resort. This is all this is the 1376 01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:24,380 boardroom 1377 01:32:24,380 --> 01:32:27,020 Adam Curry: stress. You're stressed. You're stressed. Man, 1378 01:32:27,020 --> 01:32:28,100 I know you're stressed. 1379 01:32:28,460 --> 01:32:31,940 Dave Jones: Gene bean, 2222 through cast O Matic, the sad 1380 01:32:31,940 --> 01:32:34,220 truth is that we've been conditioned to use apps on 1381 01:32:34,220 --> 01:32:38,720 mobile devices. PWA is just do cut it when trying to onboard so 1382 01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:41,920 many people today, maybe one day they will, but that day doesn't 1383 01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:45,400 seem to be today. I'm really glad true fans is going to offer 1384 01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:50,440 ABS so as to make it accessible to the masses. All right. Yep, 1385 01:32:50,860 --> 01:32:54,580 yep. True. True. Uh. G anonymous, 6969 through 1386 01:32:54,580 --> 01:32:55,960 fountain. Says, just saying, 1387 01:32:56,740 --> 01:32:57,340 Unknown: Thank you, Sir 1388 01:32:59,020 --> 01:33:01,720 Dave Jones: Brian of London, 11 948, through caste O Matic, he 1389 01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:05,040 says, boosting from hive Fest in Split Croatia, 1390 01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:08,520 Adam Curry: ooh. Boost, high fest. Hive fest, 1391 01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:11,880 Dave Jones: a Croatian. Boost, I can't believe you made me think 1392 01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:16,080 about coming in through. Rachel Maddow, entrance, hole, Brian, 1393 01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:22,520 sorry, stop. Come on. I'm gonna, we're gonna have to censor, 1394 01:33:22,580 --> 01:33:28,940 yeah, really? Randall, black, 56 sets out of 1111, a satchel. 1395 01:33:28,940 --> 01:33:32,240 Richards, he says. Brad joner, joining the value verse. Brad 1396 01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:32,720 johnner, 1397 01:33:32,900 --> 01:33:35,780 Adam Curry: oh, oh yes, that was the song we played. Yeah, 1398 01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:36,680 joining the value 1399 01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,200 Dave Jones: verse is huge. Great, award winning Canadian 1400 01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:42,580 artist now just gets CD, baby. Did not flag songs in V, for V 1401 01:33:42,580 --> 01:33:45,280 on YouTube for copyright strikes. Go podcast. Go 1402 01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:46,240 Adam Curry: podcasting indeed. 1403 01:33:51,220 --> 01:33:53,980 Dave Jones: And Gene bean, 2222 again, through castematic, he 1404 01:33:53,980 --> 01:33:58,360 says, Dave, it's okay not to be on call. 24/7 365, we will all 1405 01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:04,140 survive if you take time off for self help. This, I've never felt 1406 01:34:04,140 --> 01:34:07,380 less, less healthy than our day right now. Really, that said, I 1407 01:34:07,740 --> 01:34:13,680 mean, that was hyperbole, but oh, the distress I've completely 1408 01:34:13,740 --> 01:34:17,400 I'm holding my hand in front of the boardroom. IRC, yes, that's 1409 01:34:17,460 --> 01:34:21,140 hard. Thanks for looking into the aggregator issue, rapidly, 1410 01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:23,780 thinking about long term sustainability. How can we make 1411 01:34:24,020 --> 01:34:28,700 you not the only one who's able to fix some of these wacky 1412 01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:30,920 things? That's good. That's bring 1413 01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:33,320 Adam Curry: back the chocolate beef milkshakes. That's the only 1414 01:34:33,320 --> 01:34:35,120 way to fix that problem. Yeah. 1415 01:34:35,120 --> 01:34:40,040 Dave Jones: So I can have more power. That's the answer. Good. 1416 01:34:40,040 --> 01:34:44,200 Power. Good one power comic strip blogger, the delimiter, 1417 01:34:44,860 --> 01:34:50,320 24,000 SATs nice through fountain says, howdy, Dave and 1418 01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:54,880 Adam. Today, I would like to recommend hyper catcher, a 1419 01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:59,140 podcast player, app for iPhone and iPad. Search in App Store 1420 01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:06,780 for hyper. Catcher written together in the middle, or visit 1421 01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:12,180 www.hypercatcher.com this app can generate transcripts for 1422 01:35:12,180 --> 01:35:17,160 podcasts that don't have them for free on device. What's very 1423 01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:21,020 helpful as transcripts can be uploaded, for example, to LLM 1424 01:35:21,020 --> 01:35:26,180 like Claude, an AI assistant from anthropic or chat GPT from 1425 01:35:26,180 --> 01:35:31,040 open AI for summarizing and data query purpose, yo, CSB, 1426 01:35:31,220 --> 01:35:35,120 Adam Curry: it should just, it should just have in your podcast 1427 01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:38,060 app a podcast daily that just summarizes all the podcasts 1428 01:35:38,060 --> 01:35:40,400 you're not going to listen to anymore. It's perfect. 1429 01:35:41,899 --> 01:35:47,499 Dave Jones: If I could have a podcast app that after I haven't 1430 01:35:47,499 --> 01:35:50,979 listened to a podcast in maybe three days, if it would just 1431 01:35:50,979 --> 01:35:52,299 remove you on my list. 1432 01:35:54,700 --> 01:35:57,160 Adam Curry: Give me a catch up and remove all old episodes. 1433 01:35:57,160 --> 01:36:01,980 Well, there you go. A digest, you know, digest the die, cast, 1434 01:36:01,980 --> 01:36:03,720 digest, cast, Yeah, 1435 01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:05,640 Dave Jones: cuz you know, you have those things where it's 1436 01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,160 like on this mailing list, do you want to get every message in 1437 01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:08,700 your inbox? 1438 01:36:08,700 --> 01:36:13,080 Adam Curry: Yeah, you go, tried and true. Tried and True. 1439 01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:17,940 Dave Jones: Got some, got some monthlies. We got new media 1440 01:36:17,940 --> 01:36:21,440 productions. That's Rob and Todd. $30 thank you. Timothy 1441 01:36:21,440 --> 01:36:26,480 voice, $10 uh. Michael Hall, $5.50 Thank you. Michael Jeremy 1442 01:36:26,480 --> 01:36:28,520 gerds, $5 and Satan's lawyer, $5 1443 01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:31,820 Adam Curry: the advocate is always in the house. We have our 1444 01:36:31,820 --> 01:36:35,120 eye on you. We got our eye on you. All right, brother, get 1445 01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:38,300 out. Go back. Go back to the to the mill, back to the grind. 1446 01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:41,080 Dave Jones: Okay, I'm out. Yeah, I 1447 01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:43,420 Adam Curry: got you in last seven minutes. Not too bad. Have 1448 01:36:43,420 --> 01:36:46,420 a great weekend, brother. Yeah, you too All right. Thank you 1449 01:36:46,420 --> 01:36:48,880 very much. Boardroom. We'll be back next week with more 1450 01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:50,860 podcasting. 2.0 you 1451 01:37:07,140 --> 01:37:09,360 Unknown: podcasts are cool. You have been listening to 1452 01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:15,240 podcasting 2.0 visit podcast index.org for more information. 1453 01:37:15,720 --> 01:37:15,840 Go 1454 01:37:18,660 --> 01:37:20,760 podcasting Nerdfighters, nerdfight. You.