Adam Curry: Podcasting 2.0 for September 20, 2024, episode 194,
it's a freak off Friday. Hello everybody. It is Friday once
again. And boy, we are in a good mood because Fridays are always
good days. It is time for the one and only board meeting of
podcasting. 2.0 itbr, everybody's in the boardroom. We
are, in fact, the only boardroom that will never send a message
to your pager, I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas
Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who climbs big rocks, he
drinks his beef and delights audiences all over the world say
hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr. Dave
Jones,
Dave Jones: man, the the beef milkshake today is just not.
It's just not happening. It's not. You're not feeling it. It's
it's not. There's no beef in it. That's the
Adam Curry: problem. What do you just have chocolate powder or
what? That doesn't sound right? No,
Dave Jones: it's like. So I got this new I got a new flavor. I
like, branched out away from the chocolate and went with the
vanilla. Yeah, and it's just No, it's not good. Vanilla
Adam Curry: beef just doesn't sound good to me. So not good.
Vanilla beef,
Dave Jones: it is not good. And so I've like, I'm just trying
to, like, I tried to force it in, and it wasn't happening. So
now I'm just, I'm just have whey protein, and then, and then I
tried to put, like, something in there to spice it up. Because,
just because I the milk I use for it is this, like, low sugar,
you know, milk that's been and so it's like, high, it's like a
high protein milk, yeah, so I go the high protein milk creatine,
and
Adam Curry: you got cretin, cretin I got,
Dave Jones: I got cretins in my shake. And then I got some, just
some whey protein isolate in there. And, like, none of that
has any flavor whatsoever, because you've even taken the
sugar out of the milk, yeah? So it just tastes like drinking
chalk. And here's,
Adam Curry: you know, what you could do to spice it up, little
bit of bourbon. Just, just for the board meeting, yeah? Just
for the board meeting. Just for the board meeting, just for the
board meeting. Just little nip babies. No problem.
Dave Jones: Nip from the putt from the pocket flask, yep.
Adam Curry: Oh man,
Dave Jones: I put, what I did was I put a I put a yogurt in
there with it and shit, and blended that up. And that's not
what I thought it was gonna be. No, no, it's even worse. Now I'm
just like, forcing it down.
Adam Curry: Oh, nasty. So what you got on your list, brother,
we only have an hour and a half today because you said I got it
hard out, kind of hard out, you know, get back. Can't stay in
the board meeting too long. Got a hard out. It's in summer.
Hours are over. It's done, it's gone, it's toast.
Dave Jones: It's done. Let's see. What do I have? Well,
Adam Curry: maybe I can ask you a question, just because I
didn't understand
Dave Jones: this to my notes, okay, yeah, flip to your notes.
Adam Curry: What is the conversation about podcast
images and why don't I understand it?
Dave Jones: That is in my notes, my notes right under making a
podcast with Google notebook. LLM, LM, via CSB, yeah,
Adam Curry: which is also fun, yes. Um, yeah.
Dave Jones: So that's, well, I've got which one. What do you
want to do?
Adam Curry: You want to talk about images, but whatever you
want, it's up to you.
Dave Jones: What is your understanding of image? Of the
image thing, because this is namespace talk, by the way. Oh,
Adam Curry: and now it's time for some hot names. That's
right, we're sizzling up your Friday right off the bat. We're
not waiting. We're not mate, we're not teasing you with the
hot name space talk. We give it to you right away.
Dave Jones: Five minutes in, we're already in the namespace.
This is a record, baby, hot
Adam Curry: name, space talk.
Unknown: Well, you're selling it now.
Adam Curry: Well, because I saw, you know, I saw a post, and then
I saw Stephen B come back and say, Well, I only do, I do
single, not multiple. And then I'm like, I recognize this,
because if I go to sovereign feeds, there is a tab for
images, and you can add images, and I've never and for the
episodes for the podcast and and so I'm like, well, maybe it has
something to do with that, that I can add extra images and and
then I was like, You know what? I'm lazy. I'm just gonna ask
Dave,
Dave Jones: thanks. First of all, I need to kill the oh,
gosh, I've got like 200 tabs open in this browser. This is
gonna crash my computer. This. Trend I gotta get,
Adam Curry: I get the, get the jingle ready for you for the
boot, yeah,
Dave Jones: successfully closed every time clean feed.
Adam Curry: Now is this Linux that crashes with so many tabs
open? Yeah, yeah, because that sounds wrong. Doesn't sound
right. But
Dave Jones: you know, Ubuntu with a lightning Node running,
you know, in 27 containers is, I mean, it's not the most stable
thing in the world. So, okay, you know, I mean, the whole
computer doesn't crash. It's more like the the windows crash
the window manager. But, um,
Adam Curry: oh, because that's totally okay. Yeah,
Dave Jones: it's fine. It's just like, it's like, your rodecaster
Having to reboot it. It's fine.
Adam Curry: It's all Linux, baby, just the drivers. It's
always the drivers.
Dave Jones: It's Linux all the way down. Well, okay, so we've
got, the long and short of it is we have, we have competing
proposals. We have a fight Bruin, uh oh,
Adam Curry: a name, nerd fight, namespace fight, nerd fight,
nerd fight.
Dave Jones: No, it's, uh it's, it's kind of competing
proposals, but not really like I think it's so here, here's what
is here. So here's what's going on. We want to add, many people
want to add banners, some sort of idea of a banner image that
Adam Curry: can be used for other for things, for things,
Dave Jones: things, yeah. So, you know, like one, one good
example of social media. Social media needs. They they like
banners. They like you to have you used to it was just like you
had your avatar, right? And you put it on a gravatar or
whatever. Yes, gravity, remember graviton? Sure. I think it's
still, I'm sure, it is. And so you just have an avatar for
various things in your social in your social graph.
Adam Curry: Um, just threw up in my mouth. Yes, my social
accomplished. Yeah, yeah, well done. Well done. Well played,
sir.
Dave Jones: Now you like, I'm not sure which one was the first
to do this. Which social context is, what may have been Facebook.
I think Facebook has always had this idea of adding in this
extra thing that's a banner, and so it like goes, sort of like
across the top, so you have your avatar and it's over. It's
laying over this sort of like, fancy banner looking thing,
which would be sort of like, I don't know, like a three, like,
aspect ratio, three to one, four to one type thing, yeah, where
it's pretty, you know, it's long, sort of long and skinny
ish. What
Adam Curry: happened to the skyscraper? Remember that
skyscraper? Yeah, the skyscraper was a banner, a vertical banner
on the side that was sold to some inventory. Oh, we've got a
skyscraper on the side. Don't you remember those? A banner ad
turned rotated 90 degrees.
Dave Jones: Okay, so, so the, I remember the masthead, you know,
image or whatever. But not, I don't know about the skyscraper,
so you've got, you've got this idea that that we want to put
into the feed, and this would help with all kinds of things,
like, like pod page,
Adam Curry: yeah, for sharing stuff is what we kind of what we
were talking about is sending extra stuff along with your feed
that can be used in to fill up your MySpace page. Yeah, yeah,
exactly, yeah.
Dave Jones: And, and then, okay, so you can take this farther,
and it has been proposed in in the past, in the issues like two
year two, maybe even three years ago, it was proposed that
they're like, that you could, we could implement, like, an
entire, like, style guide, or whatever, inside the the feed,
so you have, like, Okay, this, this podcast has this color
palette that it that It always uses for its, you know, right
style. And so you could put that information in there. Well, you
know that that got rid that, then you start to get pretty
dicey, because then the app developers are like, you know,
what are
Adam Curry: you doing to my art? Man,
Dave Jones: yeah, hey, screw you. I'm not gonna, like, let
you style my that's
Adam Curry: not gonna happen. No, yeah.
Dave Jones: And then there's also, there's, there's, there's
the the knee jerk of that, but there's also the, just the
realistic difficulties of, okay, my app uses, my app needs to now
calculate like contrasting colors so it knows what text to
overlay on top of this other thing. Right? Just, it's a big
mess. I mean, it's, it would be great. It in in cons. This is
one of those things that the concept is, is really good. And
you're like, Oh yeah, that would be great. And then, like, the
actual putting in, into into production, becomes this sort of
nightmare of edge cases and difficulties. For an example of
this, see the difficulties that Apple had on Mac OS trying to
get that the menu bar at the top to be
Adam Curry: three color and be consistent, uh huh, and
Dave Jones: still be readable. And also that, yeah, even they
couldn't do it right. And they got the best designers ever. So
it's a big mess, so, but that's a side that's a side tangent, so
that the matter at hand is the banner stuff. And you can say,
Okay, how could you solve how could you solve that problem?
And in asking that question, you've there's been sort of two
ideas proposed, one by Nathan gathri, one by Russell from pod
two. And so Russell has actually already put this stuff into
anyway that Poso podcast hosting company, yes, he's already put
this into their feeds, and he just created a new tag.
Adam Curry: He's the SAM Sethi of hosting companies,
apparently.
Dave Jones: So he created a new tag called podcast colon
banners, or podcast colon banner. Banner, no, it banners,
I'm sorry, banners. And then in there he's got a tag, like in
this, this is a parent node for a tag, a parent tag for it, for
a podcast banner, tag that defines a a source, so you know,
URL to an image, right? A mind,
Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Oh, so it can be video. Could be a video
banner and
Dave Jones: an aspect ratio.
Adam Curry: Okay, by the way, so far, I'm on board with the idea.
Dave Jones: And if it's and if it's a, if it's a video, it also
has a length attribute, right? Um, now this is fine. I don't
really have a problem with with this. I like sort of
semantically pleasing tags like this. You know, we all want to
be semantically pleasing in our lives, and this is this fits
this
Adam Curry: man. If I could be semantically pleasing to my
wife, I'd have it made a good life.
Dave Jones: If you figure out how, give me, shoot me a text,
yeah? Because I need that in my own life as
Adam Curry: well. I'll do a blast on the social a blast,
Dave Jones: yeah, put us on blast. So he, I mean, he's, he's
not only defined the tag. He's doing it. I mean, he's just
running. He's running with some some humongous scissors. So you
have that, then you have a competing proposal which uses an
exit, which just modifies the existing images tag. You know,
this is the one that that James cridlin gets heartburn from
Adam Curry: because no one uses it and he wants it out. Yeah,
right, right.
Dave Jones: So podcast, colon images is has been in the spec
forever, for a long time, yeah, and pod LP app already uses it.
Currently is defined this way. So can I ask? Yeah,
Adam Curry: maybe in your in your definition, give the
example of how pod LP uses it. Because I currently have, in our
feed, I have, let me just make sure I'm saying it right. We
have episode image URL and podcast image URL.
Dave Jones: You don't have a tag in our feed called podcast colon
images. Hold on.
Unknown: Let me see,
Dave Jones: sir Spencer says he uses podcast images. Okay?
Images. You hand code your feed though, sir Spencer, right.
Adam Curry: We do not have that, okay, no, but I think I'm
looking at Sovereign feeds. I think sovereign feeds is just
set up to do it because, because it also says, it says default
image URL synced with podcast metadata, which, okay, not sure
what that means, but okay, I
Dave Jones: don't know either. No, all right. No, I I have a
standing rule to never look at sir Spencer's images on anything
that's right, absolutely you don't have to tell me,
Adam Curry: though that idea, I. Um,
Dave Jones: so the podcast images tag was based on the
html5 source set, syntax, src, s, e, t, that's an attribute
that's in the html5 image tag where you can say you can define
a source set and say, and then you can have multiple images
defined in the same attribute. So instead of just a source, you
can have a source set. And that source set is, is a is an array
delimited by commas, where each member of the array is a URL in
a space, and then the horizontal width of the image in pixels,
Adam Curry: okay, and that's what Stephen Bell was talking
about. He his his stuff wouldn't take an array, I guess, or
whatever,
Dave Jones: something like that. And so the one thing that has
been misunderstood, and James, this is a misunderstanding that
James has, is looking at that source set and saying, okay,
then it can only, I've heard him say this multiple times, that it
means that the images have to be square, because you're saying
this image is a 1500 about 1500 this image is 600 by 600 that's
not that's not the case the the source set defines the URL and
the width. It doesn't define the height in the source set. Yes,
Adam Curry: I see that.
Dave Jones: So it can be, it doesn't have, they don't have to
be square images. They just that's, that's a
misunderstanding. So the the currently, the images tag is
based on that terminology. Excuse me, that that that pro
sort of standard within html5 and that's standard is in use in
browsers. I mean, it's a supported thing. So the idea
was, we can just take this, you know, this would be an easy, an
easy pickup for people who, under already understands, you
know, html5, modern, modern HTML. And so then Nathan's in
proposal to get the banner stuff in there is to extend the images
tag to have to be more to it's not a breaking change, but it
would be more consistent with existing podcast image tags, and
also have this other stuff in it that could accommodate what what
Russell wants, or what we all want with banners. So his
proposal is, first of all, you make it where you can have
multiple tags, either in the channel or an item, because
currently it's only single and that just seems, that seems fine
to me. Then you have a source attribute, just like a standard
image tag, you also have the source set that you can use. The
source, the way he describes it, is a fallback media URL if
multiple sizes are not available. Which it sounds, that
sounds, that makes, that makes sense. Then you would have a
type. So it'd be a MIME type, which is, you know, logical,
which logical, logical. And then you have the aspect ratio. And
his aspect ratio defines, is the syntax of the aspect ratio he's
using, is the SIA is what CSS uses, and Eric PP is because you
can provide multiple images in the same tag. That's why it's
called images and not image. So the aspect ratio is defined like
with a slash. So you like 16 by nine would be 16 slash nine,
because that's how CSS does it. And so that, again, this would
make this an ease, sort of an easy pickup mentally, for people
who are already used to web development, right? And so that,
that kind of that solves the same problem just by extending a
diff a different tag instead of creating a new one. Now, my my
clear preference here is for podcast images to be extended.
Adam Curry: Yeah. I mean, I can see why, of course,
Dave Jones: and rather than creating a new tag called
banner,
Adam Curry: right? Yeah, because there can be all kinds of
images, you know, might be a funny way images, promo video. I
mean, it's kind of a whacked out way of describing. Driving an
image, which isn't an image, it's a video, but I guess you
could use that, right?
Dave Jones: Yeah, a dog's hell in it.
Adam Curry: They just that was your dog. I thought it was my
dog. I was your dog.
Dave Jones: No, it's not okay. I think a fire truck one button
and he started hell. Yeah, there's, but I'm gonna play
devil's advocate against myself here, though, the the there's
one you know, Russell is, is attracted to the semantics of
having a tag called podcast banner, and I understand why.
It's because, you know, if you think like a machine, then if
you have a tag that is that just says podcast images, and it has
an and one of the images defined in there has an aspect ratio of
one to one. One of them has an aspect ratio of 16 by nine, and
another one has an aspect ratio of three to one. Nothing about
the presence of any of that tells you whether one of those
is intended to be a banner image, right? I mean, you could
be grabbing an image and like, you know, oh yeah, anything
that's three to one or four to one or, well,
Adam Curry: perhaps the description, the description is
wrong. I mean, a banner is a description and an aspect ratio,
you know? I mean, whereas I might have an image that I
determined to be a social media share image, or an image that I
intend to, you know, I want this at the top of something. So
therefore it's a banner. You know what I mean? Is it A, is
that the descriptor is wrong?
Dave Jones: Yeah, like, because some, well, some banners could
be like, not all, none, like blues. So the ones I know of,
Facebook, Twitter has a banner idea, Mastodon has a banner
idea. Blue sky. I mean, a lot of these social media things, and
I'm sure immediately there would be use amongst things like
podpage and and hosting company websites, maybe even sites like
plink and those kind of things. So, but, but, if you don't
clearly say this is what this thing is supposed to be, if you
just randomly take the first you know, Oh, this one's a three,
three by one, because, because blue sky stuff is maybe three
and a half to one, right? And Facebook's is four to one, and
it's like, well, which like, what you really want. What you
really want is, is a a tag that says, Look, I'm a banner. That's
what I'm supposed to be. You know? Now, the reason it works
with images, with album art, the reason album art doesn't have to
say, Hey, I'm album art is because, historically within
podcasting, if you find an image in there, it's album art, right?
Because there was only ever that use case initially, and that use
case lasted so long that that it's just, that's just the way
it works. But now we have something, the ability to do
something new, and now that we're introducing something new,
you you can cause you can just dump a whole bunch of stuff into
a feed and have no idea how to actually use it, right? So, I
mean, my, my, here's where I'm at right now as far and tell me
what you think about this. I think these changes to the
images tag are good enough on their own to just to justify
adopting the changes regardless, take the banner idea out of it
for the for a minute, just having these changes is fine,
because it doesn't really break anything.
Adam Curry: I think that's the same point, not not breaking
anything or or unnecessarily adding a new tag when we could
shoehorn it into an existing one,
Dave Jones: right, right? And so I think that that that stands on
its own as a way to do this, the banner thing is harder because,
I mean, I like the idea, but I think it just needs, I think it
needs some more discussion about whether or not the banner there
might be. A different way to do it. So let me see what I'm
trying to say here. So instead of defining the banner and it
ended up in it ending up just being a different version, like
it looks exactly like images, except it just has a different
name. Perhaps the images tag can also have an ID, and then the
and then you have a tag that says banner, and it just tells
you which image is the banner. Yeah, so banner, and then an
attribute that says, you know,
Adam Curry: MIME type, URL, aspect ratio, no,
Dave Jones: no, no, no. So you have, you have a you have a each
images tag has an ID, equals ID equals 1577, right, right,
right. And then you have a banner tag that says banner.
It's got one attribute that says ID equals 1577, and you know
that that image is the banner got it.
Adam Curry: I mean, like, instead of just using the word,
instead of just using the word banner, we'll use a code for it.
Dave Jones: Well, it's kind of like, it's kind of like what you
do in HTML, where you say, where each HTML tag or element can
have an ID associated with it, and so then sometimes you say,
sometimes you have, like, a label tag in HTML, and you say,
four equals this other band, this other HTML tag, and so you
know that this this label goes with this checkbox, okay, okay.
And so the same thing could be done here. You could have banner
four equals and then the ID that references the image tag that
you that is the banner. Oh, okay, like it's a little more
complicated, but at least it gives you
Adam Curry: easier in programming at the other end,
Dave Jones: I think so. I think so, because you know you're
barring that, the barring that, the only other thing I can which
that seems a little convoluted, because the other
straightforward way to solve this would just be to have
another attribute on the images tag that says, like, use like,
use equal banner, or use equal art for the album art. And to
me, once you put that in, then it solves the problems that
Russell is is having with the semantics of it, where you have
now you actually have, you're saying this is a banner.
Adam Curry: From a feed creation standpoint, to me, it seems more
logical to say this is a banner. This is a promo video. This is a
headshot. You know, there's a million different things I could
come up with,
Dave Jones: yeah, I mean this, yeah, yeah, I think so. Because
then you could also, like, grab sorry. Then you could also tie
it to, if we do it this way, and you just and you have the
ability to drop a generic image batch into the feed and then
give it and then sort of tie it to some use case that's pretty
powerful, versus just having a thing that says banner, and
that's the only thing It can ever do, is just be a banner,
okay? That, I mean, so it's like a
Adam Curry: combo. It's like you have some attributes, but then
you also have equals banner,
Dave Jones: yeah, yeah, attribute, like a purpose
equals, or above all, sounds like
Adam Curry: something that we could argue about on GitHub for
a couple months.
Dave Jones: I think, I think, as it stands now, the enhancement
stuff is is good enough on its own to just adopt that. And I
think the banner thing is a different discussion. Okay, I
like adding an attribute because I think that solves everybody's
problem. An extra attribute, but I will let Russell tell me where
I'm wrong.
Adam Curry: Okay, so can we table this for now?
Dave Jones: We can. I want to say one more thing,
Adam Curry: okay, Steve.
Dave Jones: I mean, I'm creating an iPhone. I want to say one,
just one, just throw one more thing in, and it's just another
thing about, about the naming. And that was another aspect of
what Russell was saying. Just to give a quick recap on my, on,
on, on, my opinion about naming things is, I don't think for
developers that name, that names of things matter, right? And
it's because, it's because nut is for the exact reason that
Dave Weiner says. And rules for standard makers. These are all
English languages. Yes, English language things some people
don't even read English, right? And they they still have the
ability to program. They just learn what they look like, and
they know what that and they learn the word when they need to
learn it. We also have other things that we that we deal with
on a daily basis, things like JSON and what does that even
mean?
Adam Curry: Thank you. Thank you. You know, good point.
Dave Jones: This is all just stuff. Nobody knows what any of
this stuff is until they need to know it, and then they go learn
it. So I just don't think it's a problem, okay, all right. I
mean, I feel like, I feel like that's enough to go on and then,
and then Nathan said he's gonna, he said he's gonna throw the
purpose attribute in there, into the proposal, and then we can
follow we can just, like, pick that up on GitHub. Okay,
Unknown: excellent. Hey,
good work, guys.
Adam Curry: It could work. We got through it. Or I'm closing
out the segment. There you go. And now it's time ending in
space. Done? Everybody have a cigarette. It's all over. It's
done. There we go.
Dave Jones: Now, you just kicked the ball back up in the air. Now
we're reopened it again.
Adam Curry: Quick update, just on wallet stuff. Oscar sent us a
note. He says he'll have a an OAuth type demo this weekend.
Hopefully they say this weekend. I think he said this weekend?
Yeah, I think so. Chad,
Dave Jones: don't do that. Don't say 60 minutes left. You're
stressing me out. I'm
Adam Curry: moving things along here. It's like we got to stop
with the stupid namespace talk. I got other things to discuss
with you. So, yeah, I believe so Oscar reached out and he says,
this weekend, we'll see when it's ready. It's all good,
because that's a demo we're all looking forward to. On that
note, do you have a final final yet from Zebedee on
implementation? Because that's what we're going after here, all
these different custodial services that have money
transmitter licenses, which, of course, will you know
everything's still open. You can still be sovereign, use your
own, your own thing, whatever you want to do. That's not a
problem. This is to make it easier for the worlds to get
past that 21,000 limit that we seem to have hit with,
podcasters using a value block. So have you heard from Zebedee?
Dave Jones: Heard from Zach over there today, and he was just
asking if I had set up a developer account stuff yet,
which I have Okay, and he we're just gonna, he just wants to
help me fast track and get get all that so I can play with the
API. But I don't, I have not heard back from them whether
they finalized any of their stuff they I think, I think what
is happening is there. I get the impression that they're really
trying to figure out how to make this work financially for
people, yeah, and for them, and for themselves, oops, and for
themselves, yeah, because normally these, I think what
they normally deal with this is just, this is all just my
impression from what, from what I've heard them say is, I think
they've, they're just used to dealing with more, like, like
game developers, and they have, like, a clear business like,
monetary plan, whereas, whereas podcast app developers don't,
yeah,
Adam Curry: well, we made that very clear to them. We said,
there's no money here, yeah, yeah, there's very little money.
Yeah,
Dave Jones: okay, you know. But they're doing real work with all
this, you know. And they have real calls, so I think they're
just trying to figure out how to make it accessible to the
developers that, yeah, so that's going to take some time. And
we're
Adam Curry: asking, we're asking these parties to give us a, you
know, like a one sheet, so we can just say, here's how you
implement it, which, of course, would come along with some
namespace additions, although we kind of have the, Ellen URL
name, I think that's all. Is that already in the in the the
value tag, we already put that in. Yeah, it's in. Okay. Then we
have staying on the wallets for a second. We had a chat with the
folks from light spark. Oh,
Dave Jones: yeah. Do you want to like, Yeah,
Adam Curry: I'll try and explain it. First of all, it was very
interesting, because it reminded me so much of calls I used to
make when I was trying to sell internet, basically, to to
companies. And, yeah, I had, the salesperson was just landed at
the airport. She's in the car on the call, and then she runs into
the conference room, and the two other guys are talking and and
then, you know, this is all great, and it's, it'll be ready
in a week or two, okay. But in essence, what lightspark has
done is they've created the same type, what they call it a Yuma,
a universal money address, which is compatible, from what I
understand, with L and URL addresses. Now stop me if I'm.
Wrong and but the difference is, if you onboard with a Yuma
address, universal money address, then you can
immediately connect it to your financial institution. And they
have in America, they have Bank of America Chase, and they have
some, some outfit in Brazil, and you know, that's part of their
business, is onboarding. And the reason why is they're sitting on
top of, I forget the name of the what was the name of zero hash?
Zero hash? Yeah. So they're sitting on top of zero hash. So
there is a KYC process, but I think it'll probably be a little
less dorky, since they're trying to make this, professionalize
this for people, it'll be a little less dorky than than some
of the existing Bitcoin KYC processes are. It'll probably be
the same, but it just might be slicker,
Dave Jones: something where you have to send a picture of
yourself from your phone holding a sign that says, My name is
Dave Jones, yeah, stuff
Adam Curry: like that, exactly. So the the whole flow is your
financial institution through plaid into what's that thing
called, their
Unknown: RTP? No,
Adam Curry: you just meant, yeah, but you just mentioned 00,
hash, and then into the Yuma, and then they're doing the
transfer over lightning and then the other end. Of course, it can
go to a lightning address, or it can go into into another Yuma
address, which then reverses the flow and goes back up and
eventually into your financial institution. So you can just
say, I want to send a Euro, I want to send $1 I want to send
X, Y or Z, and it'll just make it to the other end with minimal
fees that we're talking about 0.8% of the transaction, and
which I think is another fine solution. A lot of people won't
like it because, you know, of the KYC, etc,
Dave Jones: but the you can always roll your own,
Adam Curry: yeah, exactly. That's what I like, because it
interrupts with everything else. So it would be a very easy
option. And we asked for them for the same, you know, can you
give us a and they said they would have some kind of OAuth
solution coming in a month. You know, whatever these things, I'm
not expecting anything before next year, but they always take
longer than Yeah, develop it. Hello, but I like it because,
you know, now we're getting to a place where you make it a lot
more accessible for people to just say, Okay, so now I can
hook this up. I go to, what is it? Yuma.me, I register an
address, and then I do my my KYC song and dance, and then I
connect it straight to my my debit card, to my bank account,
and I can start sending if I'm in America dollars, if I'm in
Australia dollars, although significantly worth less in
Europe, in the EU, euros. And I think that would be, that's
great. I think it's fantastic. I mean, obviously a lot of people
going to push back, oh, all kinds of Yes, yes, there's
financial stuff in there, but it's all compatible with the
sovereign state of the Lightning Network.
Dave Jones: Well, my So, my understanding was the flow would
be something like this would be you, you would so, so a Yuma
looks like it looks like an email address, like a lightning
address, except it has a little dollar sign in the beginning.
That's the first character, right, right? That's how you
know it's a Yuma, a universal money address. And so the Yuma
thing, like, you would go to Yuma, not me, and then you would
go through a process like you do with like, plaid.
Adam Curry: In fact, they're literally using plaid. Yeah,
they're
Dave Jones: using plaid to associate the universal money
address with a bank account, and then you have this second step
in what they showed us, where it prompts you to like, what do you
want to be able to do with this? With this connection? Do you
want it to be able to deduct funds? Credit funds? Yeah.
Permission, permissions. That permissions, yeah. I mean, just
like you do with plaid. Well, like Venmo.
Adam Curry: It's like connecting it to Venmo. It's the same thing
as connecting PayPal or Venmo. And remember, PayPal was also
now saying that they're going to start accepting bitcoin and
passing it right through in Fiat. I don't know if they're
going to do lightning, but I think it's pretty fair to say
everyone's moving in this direction.
Dave Jones: Everybody is that own chain that's on chain. I
don't
Adam Curry: know on chain for sure, but they can't be
competitive without offering a lightning solution. Everyone's
offering lightning now all the exchanges offer lightning, you
know, up to certain number. Ounce, obviously, for liquidity
issues, if they want, if they want to be competitive. PayPal
will also offer lightning, which will and because it's passed
through into Fiat, that will finally put no agenda on the V
for V train, because Dvorak is okay with it,
Dave Jones: like I haven't seen any No, there's
Adam Curry: no announcement yet. No, no, there's no announcement.
Yeah, okay, okay. They're calling their their partners
because they're okay, because they're also Yeah. And there's
two reasons they called. One is, hey, we're going through a whole
new link scheme, and pretty soon all your old links will be dead.
Yay. Please fix something that wasn't broke.
Dave Jones: What? Why would you ever No, I don't, no
Adam Curry: problem. It's, it's, it's baffling to me. So they're
gonna train, they're gonna train us on what to do. You know, hey,
we're gonna, you know, it's like, like, I'll be training.
We're gonna onboard you into the new system, so the old system
apparently will break.
Dave Jones: That's great. Yes, yeah. Okay, so you, I guess the
idea there would be that you would get a Bitcoin, some sort
of Bitcoin receiving address, a wallet address, and then
anything that comes into that wallet just immediately shows up
in your PayPal balance. Correct, correct, correct. See, okay, so
you know, we can do own chain easily with the value block,
yeah,
Adam Curry: but I'm telling you, we don't. Yes, we could. If
Dave Jones: I'm saying like that, that should be an option.
Because, okay, yeah, it takes a few it takes a little bit, it
takes a few minutes. Can take a couple hours to verify
sometimes. But, I mean, I'm not against it. I'm not against you
know that if, if it comes to adoption, I mean, own chain, to
me, is fine, if it gets over the adoption threshold.
Adam Curry: Eric PP is already scratching his head about, what
do I do with helipad now
Unknown: I'm screwed.
Adam Curry: Well, I mean, you know, fees and there's a lot of
stuff to consider timing because, yeah. I mean, depending
on what you put in your your V bite fee, you know, is it always
going to be fastest? Will you get an option, you know, to say,
Well, it's, you know, it's 60, you know, 60 SATs per V byte
right now. No, please don't send it this moment. You know,
there's all kinds of things to take into account there, but it
can be an option for sure. Yeah,
Dave Jones: I mean, it's, in fact, I
Adam Curry: would put that under the funding tag.
Dave Jones: That's where I'd put that the funding tag, yeah,
yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right.
That's better you put it under the funding tag and because then
you can say, Okay, I'm gonna send you. I'm gonna send you
five grand.
Adam Curry: Yes, well, this is Dvorak's hope. He's like, Yeah,
we can take Bitcoin. There's always gonna be someone who's
gonna send us a whole Bitcoin. Say, Okay, John, yeah, that's
fine. It's gonna happen. He hasn't gotten into the micro
payment headspace yet, but
Dave Jones: we'll work on him. He doesn't understand Bitcoin
culture.
Adam Curry: No, no, he doesn't
Dave Jones: that ain't happening.
Adam Curry: Then I had a preliminary call with clicks, C,
l, i, x, and we're having another call on Tuesday, and I'm
we're looking at them as basically a podcast app. They
have a this is a whole bunch of ex TiVo guys who and TV guide
people, and they understand how to promote stuff. So it'd be
discovery type app. And the cool thing about that is they're in
600,000 hotel rooms, and so we're gonna have a call and see
if, see if we can get them data. I showed them the tiles, dot pod
ping.org, and their, their, their minds were, like, blown.
Like, what? So, oh, yeah, it's like, three podcasts a second
are updating here. Like, what? What now,
Dave Jones: yeah, it was pod to Russell and pod two. They're
also just started firing up pod pings. So cool. Ping is still
growing, and, and, and Alex's pod ping, Damon just keeps
clicking along about let it run for, I guess, a week now. Nice.
This thing's solid as a rock. That's in rust.
Adam Curry: That's the rust deal. It's
Dave Jones: in Russ, yeah. And he's, he's, he's gonna add, he's
adding a bunch of features. He's, hasn't opened it. He has
not opened up the repo yet, but he's going to, once he fills
this it's solid. And one of the features he's adding is, is a
direct to object storage, so you could store these things, but
yeah, with it'll just write straight to s3
Adam Curry: in the in the folder structure, right? Year, Month,
Day. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I only have one other thing, but
we can. It's a, what we're talking about, you know, the
specialized platform players, stuff. I've had some more
thoughts on that. But do you want to do the notebook LM stuff
first?
Dave Jones: I mean, I didn't. I mean, I don't have a lot on
that. I was just like, I don't, I've been, I guess the reason I
threw it on my on my notes, is because I've been. I had a
reason to resurrect my mid journey account the other day,
because I was just, you
Adam Curry: were looking, you needed, you needed an image, and
so you turned to computer generated imagery. CGI, not AI,
CGI.
Dave Jones: That turned to CGI. I needed a, I needed a decent
logo for this side project that we're doing. Because I just, I'm
like, I can't look at this piece of crap anymore.
Unknown: I saw it,
Dave Jones: yeah, and so I So, I was like, Okay, well, I started
playing around with different, you know, with different you
know, with different things and the it just, it just struck me
how sort of crazy all this is. Did you? Did you? But, like, as
you use it, you realize you see entropy at work. Entropy is you,
yeah, like the idea, I think it's, was it the second, second
law of thermodynamics, all, all systems run down, you know, all
energy goes, goes towards zero. It's the is, you could, you can,
you can extract, sort of like extrapolate from that, this
idea, that entropy, is that idea that all things go from order to
chaos?
Adam Curry: Okay? Yes.
Dave Jones: So like you can, you can say, you know, if you leave,
if you leave your car sitting on the road and never touch it,
1000 years from now, it's, it's going to be just a pile of rust.
Yes, everything, everything runs, all systems is eventually
run down. And so you can just see this. You can see this whole
process at work with these generative AI tools, the only
thing keeping them from just dying of their own entropy is
the fact that they're being guard, railed and propped up by
people. Yes, things to them,
Adam Curry: yes, yeah, that's true. So
Dave Jones: like the A good example that I heard a long time
ago was, and this is, this is a, this is sort of an argument
against against evolution, meaning an evolution that term
being defined as ascent through modification, not not descent,
ascent, so that you get progressively more and more
complicated organisms that can do more and more things through
a process of evolutionary ascent, right? But
Adam Curry: it's, it's devolute, devolizing is devotee is going
down,
Dave Jones: yeah. And the the argument against that is,
imagine you have an airplane, and stacked in that airplane,
you have 50,000 index cards, yeah. And you push all those
index cards out of the plane, and somehow between 20,000 feet
and the ground, if they all organize themselves to spell out
Adam curry on the on the interstate. Okay, that we all
know instinctively, that that would never happen, you know.
But the the evolutionary argument is, oh, well, you just
need to give it more time. So instead of at 20,000 feet, you
go up to 35,000 feet.
Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah. You just put more more data centers in,
more power, more chips, more nuke power, yeah. Or
Dave Jones: you just do it more times. Instead of doing it once.
You do, you know, you you do the plain index card thing 2 billion
times. Well, it doesn't matter how many times you do it, you're
never going to get you're never going to get a quote from
Shakespeare out of index cards falling on the ground from
20,000 feet. It's just not because all systems run down. We
just know that this is the case. And that's the way this works,
with with with generative AI as well, like every time you hit
that. So there's this button on mid journey where, like, you put
in your prompt, and most of the time, like out of the gate, like
out of your first prompt, you kind of get something decent,
like, it's pretty it's pretty good, obviously, because it's
been trained on, on
Adam Curry: real art. You know. Oh, yeah, definitely,
definitely, it's
Dave Jones: been trained on other people's effort, you know.
So you get something pretty good, but then you have these
little buttons so you get like four, you get a quad matrix that
has like four quadrants in it, 1234, and you say, Okay, I want
this quadrant three. I like this image. So give me variations of
this image so you can say very and it'll run it back through
the model again and try to come up with variants of this. The
more times you keep doing that, this thing gets worse and worse
and worse, right? Like it's never better than the first time
you did it. And so I was thinking that you really only
get one shot at this whole thing, because, you know, we
talked about model collapse before, where you train, it's
sort of, yeah, it's eating its own dog food. And it starts to,
sort of like these, these language models, or these
generative models, begin to incestuously in incorporate
their own output into their into their training,
Adam Curry: right? Yeah, incestuously is the right term,
but you get very weak children that can't walk,
Dave Jones: right, right? And so this, this whole thing reminded
me of a discussion I think I heard on ATP where in and I've I
ended up finding it on Tom's Hardware, where they were
taught, where Apple Apple intelligence, the forthcoming
Apple intelligence, somebody leaked the prompts that they're
using under the covers. Yeah. So for all, for each one of these
use cases, like, they have one use case that says apple. It's
in Apple photos where you can say, you know, Hey, Siri, tell
me a story from these photos. And it'll, it'll, like, create
us this story with a music, with music and all this kind of stuff
that goes with your photos. Well, the underlying prompt that
does that they somebody found it in the bay in the beta. They
reverse engineered the code and found the prompt and under the
covers. What Apple is doing is they're just sending a textual
prompt to the local model under the under the covers, and the
the the the thing they're sent, the prompt they're sending to
the local model on device, is this. Here are the story
guidelines you must obey. Yeah. The story should be about the
intent of the user. The story should contain a clear arc. The
story should be diverse. That is, do not overly focus the
entire story on one very specific theme or trade. Do not
write a story that is religious, political, harmful, violent,
sexual ability or any way negative, sad or provocative.
But you know, what if? What if you
Adam Curry: So, those are the those. Those are the pre
prompts. That's the the setup where you set the model up for
the input from the user.
Dave Jones: Yes, exactly. And so basically, you're telling the
model ahead of time you you're not allowed to do any, to do
anything that is to write the story that is religious. What,
if you, what, if you're a Muslim and you went to Mecca,
Adam Curry: no mecca for you,
Dave Jones: should I add a lug man? Like, sorry, I mean, what
is he gonna say? Is it gonna say? Like, oh, the sand was
beautiful on this trip. Like, what is it gonna say? You know,
it's just also this is also this in this goes back to this, like
you're, you're just trying to put guardrails, yeah, yeah, on
this, on on a, on a process that is naturally tied intricately
to, to an intro to an entropic process. And you're trying to
keep it propped up by
Adam Curry: doing that, so not letting it devolve by keeping
the guardrails
Dave Jones: in place. And there's another, there's another
prompt that says, I
Adam Curry: gotta find this article, by the way, you got to
send that to me. Yeah, I'll
Dave Jones: send it to you. There's another, another prompt.
This says, um, was Oh. It says, that's what it is. It says, do
not produce. It gives a whole bunch of parameters. Here's
what, here's what I want you to do. And at the end of it, it
says, Please give me valid please make the output valid
JSON. Do not use bad JSON. What does that mean? This is the
point we've come to, where we're, we're, you know, like
we're saying we're having to tell the computer don't give me
what I don't want. I mean, this is just so this all feels very
silly. Wow.
Unknown: Wow.
Dave Jones: Um. Well, have you heard, have you heard dead
internet theory? Do you know this? Yes, yes,
Adam Curry: where we're only talking to bots at the end of
the day, and there's no one real anymore.
Dave Jones: I mean, I don't think that's very crazy.
Adam Curry: No, I think we're already there to a degree. I see
it all the time on x. I'm like, Okay, that's a bot, that's a
bot, that's a bot. Yeah, anything username with this
whole string of numbers suspicious? You're probably a
bot
Dave Jones: in the I think, I think that the thing I didn't
realize about that whole theory, or whatever you want to call it,
is that supposedly they're like, part of the theory is that this
all happened, like, cross the tipping point in like 2016 there
was, like this date where, where it became. There was more bots
online, yeah, interacting with each other than humans. And then
when I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah, I can see that. I bet you that's
Adam Curry: true. To take it to podcasting. So comics, your
blogger through the transcript from the most recent no agenda
episode into notebook LM and those two voices, the only
voices they have apparently created a summary of that
episode, which was actually quite interesting. It shows a
three and a half hour episode, they created a eight minute
summary, and there was some really funny mistakes in there.
But in general, it's like, well, you know, if you want to hear a
summary of what we talked about, it was, by the way, is very
complimentary. Like, these guys are great, you know, they
really, they don't, they don't just take everything at face
value, you know. Okay, so it was nice to kind of get that
evaluation, and I can see, I can see where people will listen to
the in fact, there's a service out there that someone sent me
called, what is it? Called the auto generated podcast, the
automated daily.com so he creates, I think, four or five
different podcasts. It's all automated every single day,
general news, tech news, AI news, Hacker News, and it
creates, out of the links from some sources, it creates a
podcast with this all the same voice. But you know, honestly,
just listening to that for four minutes. And if you just want to
be informed about a topic, and just want to listen to it, it's,
it's actually not that bad. But you know, you it's just because
someone's reading it to me, it does some editorializing and
makes some choices about, you know, if something is good bad
on edge out there, you know, it makes some some assumptions and
puts that in. But, you know, to me, it's like, that's not why
I'm listening to podcasts. You know, I still, I mean, people
just want to consume information. And there's a lot
of people who just want by the if you, if you listen to
podcasts at 1.5 speed. You're going to love these AI voices.
It's perfect for you. You're going to flood your brain with
shit. Enjoy fun, yeah. But I think it's only better, because,
you know, personality and humanity people always recognize
that, they always do, and they're going to want that and
value that more. But I think we can, we can look forward to a
lot of automated podcasts from sources that will, that will
feed people information. So you listen to the notebook, LM,
summary, eight minute summary of the no agenda podcast like, oh,
you know, okay, I know what they talked about.
Dave Jones: Do you have that? Can you play it? Yeah? CSP,
Adam Curry: I haven't heard this, yeah. CSB, posted it. Hold
on a second, if
Dave Jones: you played it yesterday on no agenda, no, no,
no,
Adam Curry: no, no. John actually said he wanted to hear
more of those wacky podcasts. I said, Really, you want to hear
more of that? Here we go. All right, everyone
Unknown: buckle up, because today we're really diving deep
into something pretty wild. I mean, this sounds like it could
be straight out of a spy movie, but sadly, it's the real deal.
Sounds intriguing. What's the topic today? We're talking
asymmetrical warfare, but not the kind you typically expect.
More along the lines of
Dave Jones: this is pretty interesting, because you can
hear breath.
Adam Curry: Oh yeah, no, they've got UMS in there. No, the voices
are well done. I'm impressed with the voices, although this
back and forth. Now, it's like in a podcast, you have to have
someone filling every single space with, yeah, okay, yeah,
interesting. Oh yeah, two gadgets
Unknown: and international intrigue, exploding gadgets. Now
that's something you don't hear every day. You got that right?
We're taking a deep dive into a recent episode of this. You
Adam Curry: got that right? Bob, yeah. Listen,
Unknown: listen for a second cast. Episode 1696, to be
precise. Adam curry and John C Dvorak, by
Adam Curry: the way, perfect pronunciation of Dvorak that
I've not. Ever heard that in an AI so far,
Unknown: you know those guys who can sniff out a media narrative
from a mile away? Well,
Adam Curry: yeah, I know them. Oh yeah, I know them. They could
sniff out a media narrative from a mile away.
Dave Jones: Now, where did they get that from? Well,
Adam Curry: that's what's interesting, is how you know, is
it, obviously, it's from words and phrases. That's why I said
they're they're generally quite positive, got their fingers
Unknown: on the pulse of what's really going on, even if it's a
little out there. Sometimes.
What did they unearth this time? Well, this episode aired on
September 19, 2024 and let me tell you, it's been on my mind
ever since. It all starts with some really strange
Adam Curry: you need a life
Dave Jones: that I could do with that. Okay, so have you ever
used GarageBand? Yeah, sure. Okay, so you know how, in the in
the drummer, the the virtual drummer, how you can dial it up
from like a one to 10 of how much you want that guy to freak
out and play? Phil, yes, between those, that's
Adam Curry: exactly what it is. Is that? Algo Yes. Phillip,
Dave Jones: we need this.
Adam Curry: But you know, so it doesn't give you any of the
nuance, any of the details, certainly none of the humor.
Because I know that. I know that there's humor in our show, yeah,
but I can see where we have a large segment of the population
and they'll get bored of it, but who are just starve for info,
feed me information. That's why people listen at 1.5 they want
to get more information more. So we listen to another podcast,
listen more and listen I need more. Need more and more, and
they're going to explode as info gluttony. Info gluttony. That's
it. It's really what it is. Information, gluttony, gluttony.
Dave Jones: There we go. The reason, the reason I, you know,
and you know what those are the same people. I think that, think
along the lines of what caused me to originally bring this,
bring this up about the entropy aspect, is because I think, and
I think nerds fall victim to this. All all of us do in the
nerd space is nerd space? Nerd space is we? We fall victim to
this idea that the more as long as the algorithm is good, then
the more information you feed to it, the better the output that
is not correct, right, the more the more youth, the more
information is just like more weather or more of anything, the
more of it you have, doesn't produce better outcomes. It
produces more entropy, the more energy you put in, the more
there is, the more, the higher the fall off. So it's just like
going taking that airplane full of index cards and going higher
in the air, what you're going to get is not a higher likelihood
of a good outcome. You're going to get a higher likelihood of
broader chaos. And I think we just fall victim to that sort of
thinking, because we think that, because I think we're lulled
into this from when we see AI doing what it's doing, and it
produces impressive results sometimes, but we think it's
because we fed it so much more volume of information that it
got quote, unquote smarter, yeah, but what happened is the
guard rails got tighter, or the information was actually reduced
to a smaller set where it had less to contend with. I just
don't I think this whole idea that that more gets you back,
gets you better results, is just, I think it's fit from a
physics standpoint and a metaphysics standpoint, it's
just not true, like the the more information. Let's say that
Twitter, instead of, I don't know what, how many posts it's
got at any given time. Let's, let's say 150 billion posts, the
idea that instead of, if it had, instead of 150 million,
Adam Curry: 300 billion, it would be that much better. It
did,
Dave Jones: the search somehow would be better. Yeah, no,
that's not true. It would be worse. Yeah. This same with
podcasting. If, if you just had more podcasts, you would have
better, like, be able to find we know this is not true. It makes
everything harder, not better. Yeah,
Adam Curry: so I want to talk about that because I have some
thoughts about our previous conversation, and I'm just
looking at the clock because everyone's all all jacked up and
nervous about having to get you out on time. It's, it's very
it's very unnerving. It really is. You know, people are posting
only 30 minutes left. Oh my god. We got to hurry up. Got to move
this along. Got to get this train. So I also want to play a
song. It's a short song. It's a real short song. Only 247, go,
go, go. We got to get the song going. I was on the 33rd episode
of into the doorful verse earlier. Week, which was
fantastic. I love those guys. And then they played me two
versions of a song, and I had to choose which one I like better,
which like, Dude, can you put someone on the spot? That's
that's really, really hard to do, but they sir, TJ, the
raffle. Did get it posted up, and everything's good in time
for the board meeting. So I want to make sure that we play it
because it is a banger. And remember, you can boost these
songs live as we're doing everything here in the
boardroom, or go back and boost them on your modern podcast up.
Here's the door fulls. This is disco swag on podcasting 2.0
Unknown: he was fighting
for you make the first move, but It's different with you, around
your waist don't cost it. I can chase. Show me what I need to.
Show me you'll be inside. Take the ball right. Show me what I
miss
before I mess with you. With me slow and I'll take you where you
want to
go? Show me what you got, show me what you got. Girl, show me
what you got. Show me what you got. Girl, show me what you got.
You God,
would you say? Hand.
Adam Curry: Show me it darfels, disco, swag, and that's what I
thought first, as well. Boardroom, I thought, wow,
that's like a Bruno Mars song.
Dave Jones: Is that TJ singing?
Adam Curry: No, I don't think so. Whoa. What happened? No,
that's sir Spencer is boosting. He boosted 33,333
Dave Jones: No, well, you hit the magic number. Yeah.
Adam Curry: They had another less busy mix, which I thought
sounded too much like Bruno Mars, but I would recommend
Bruno Mars record this song. Oh yeah, that's great. Get the,
yeah, that's what. That would put some coin in their pocket,
Dave Jones: but you had, but he has to only accept Bitcoin,
yeah? Well, obviously,
Adam Curry: okay, we don't have a lot of time.
Dave Jones: This is, this sucks. No, I hate this. What's okay,
never pre announce this again.
Adam Curry: Well, but it would be in the back of my mind
anyway. You know, you blew your wad on on images.
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, how could you not
Adam Curry: Whoa, hello. This penny dropped on that one
because I was listening to PWR pod news weekly review, power,
and so you haven't heard it yet? No, no. But so they were talking
about podcast portals, and which is kind of what we were talking
about, you know, on the last show. And it was based upon a
quote from Rachel Maddow, and I like that. It's based on a quote
from Rachel Maddow, because I'm not a fan, really not a fan, but
that kind of pushes me to think about, okay, how can we make
something that Rachel Maddow would like? And I'll just repeat
her statement in the Hollywood Reporter when asked about what's
the problem with podcasting, and she said, None of the apps are
great. We don't just need curation. And charts, we need
rational organization and a merit, meritocratic way for the
best and most relevant shows and episodes to circulate
efficiently. It's hard for me to understand why we're still
saddled with such uniformly clunky, unintuitive user
interfaces at this point. Now, I do not believe that she actually
wants a merit, meritocratic way for the best, the most well, the
best shows to pop up, because if Tucker Carlson popped up, she'd
throw up on her podcast app. And
Dave Jones: none of us actually want that. We all, none of us
want meritocracy. We want we want our stuff exactly, exactly.
Adam Curry: And, you know, all the big apps, you know, I'm sure
Spotify tries to do this. You know, YouTube obviously has
their recommendation engine. No one within the sound of my voice
will ever be able to create a per user algo that's running non
stop and be able to afford it. And, you know, and somehow
magically put things in the right place. But as I was saying
about podcast apps, maybe it's time for some apps. Maybe you
keep your existing app, maybe you make a second version, which
means you can keep the same basic code base. But based on my
general feeling, the future of media is small. Is it not an
idea that some podcast apps specialize now you still have
everything available. But why wouldn't just like, you know,
all cars get you from A to B, yet, lots of people buy Ferraris
for certain reasons. Some people buy electric vehicles. I mean,
there's all different. They all have the same basic
functionality, and you can put people in it and take them
somewhere, people and stuff, just like there's lots of cable
channels for different things. We've got sports channels. Is it
not an idea to build an app around a community? It can be
location as well, by the way, or around a genre, and really try
and build that out to delight one segment of the audience. And
I'm going back to fountain, they have chosen as a very successful
app. They have chosen Nasser and Bitcoin, and that choice has
alienated a certain percentage of people, but it has delighted
another segment of people,
Dave Jones: same with true fans that they've chosen specific to
focus on, on pay, micro payments, which has alienated
some people, but delighted others.
Adam Curry: Wavelake, they have an app which is, for all intents
and purposes, a podcast app, but they really feature music. Ellen
beats is a podcast app that features music and podcasts that
play music you see where I'm going, so if your interest is in
sports, why not have an app that highlights sports? Podcasts, you
know, make some bold decisions. Recommend it has to be something
you're interested in that's a developer. Everyone has an
interest. So if it's technology, wow, I think I would, I would
even open up a separate app, just to get to a technology
offering that says, hey, the latest episode of ATP is out.
And I'd like to know who, who is listening to that, and what
those people have to say. You know, this is where maybe the
Sam's activity streams come into play. Make that the entrance
into your app, and people will probably use it for other
podcasts as well. But in general, people listen to a
certain kind of podcasts, and it may not be a bad idea to create.
You know, Rachel Maddow, she really wants an app that
features her, features a whole bunch of libtards. I'm sorry,
liberals, you know, you don't want to, you don't you want to
suppress certain things, but you want to build a community just
like, like mastodon. I have a podcast index, dot, social
login, and I actually block a whole bunch of others. In fact,
I block some specific that are related to no agenda. I don't
want people posting to me about no agenda stuff on podcast
index, dot social. I have a different Mastodon for that, and
I go and I visit both equally every single day. And, you know,
depending on my mood, it seems like such a logical step for
someone to make, because we have enough boxy cars. We've all got
a car, and it looks a little different on the outside, but
it's not really appealing to me to the kind kind of vehicle I
want to be seen in and seen as using. Does that. Makes sense?
Dave Jones: Yeah. So you're, you could, I'm trying to think about
this in like a on the ground term, like, if somebody makes a
podcast app, they could then make instead of having one app,
let's say they did something crazy and made five apps, each
with a specific focus.
Adam Curry: Well, why make five? Why make one that, you know
something about everybody has that. That's the mistake, you
know, I think, okay, if there was a, let's keep it very small
and very simple. If there was a podcast app that only that you
can get anything you want in it. Okay, you can search and you can
subscribe to anything you want. But when I open that up, it's
saying, Wow, the latest upbeats just dropped. Here's a special
project that, oh curry is doing another boostagram ball. Here's
a special, curated Ainsley Costello album that is, you
know, detox radio, or whatever it's called, focuses on music
podcasts that have value for value music. I would open that
specifically for all the recommendations and all the
beauty that's in there. Now maybe down and it should
federate with some other app, you know, the the sports app. So
I could still get user stuff, but make it a community based
app for a particular topic or genre or something. You know, we
all use different apps, and people who you people who use
podcast, they're listening I like listening to Lex Fridman,
Joe Rogan, you know, long form podcast. Make it that. Here's
the latest debt guest. Here's who's coming up. You know what
I'm saying?
Dave Jones: I remember back. I remember back a long time ago. I
don't even remember what year this would have been, maybe, I
don't know it was. It had to been very early in podcasting.
You had, you had radio personalities like Rush
Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, these kind, these types. And what they
did was they had their each had their own app, and you would,
you would install the app. And, I mean, it was just a podcast
app, yeah, but it was their app, and you would install the app,
and that's how you listened to their show, yes, if you wanted
to listen to it on your phone or whatever, right? Or on their
website, you know, that kind of thing. And so this, like, there
we've, kind of, we've, we've lost that idea. And I think it
made a lot of sense to lose that idea, because it's like, well, I
don't want to have to go to five different places to listen to
five different things. But then, since we lost that idea, we also
lost some of of the benefits of that
Adam Curry: well, without disclosing because it's too
early yet, the project we're working on, we're doing exactly
that. We're doing exactly what I described on a local basis.
Would you agree? Oh, for sure. Okay, it's delighting me. It's
delighting me. I'm like, This is so cool. You know, there's, this
is an area that I have interest in, and I'm looking at all these
podcasts, and there's curation going on. There's people
recommending things to me, entities and and I'm delighted
in it and and I know when I want when I'm in this mode, which is
often, I'll, I'll use this app, which in this case is, you know,
it's for all intents and purposes, an app. I'm just
saying that we have all these apps, and they're all doing the
same thing with some variations of style and look, but it's an
inbox, and I've already been through my my issues on that. I
think it's time. And here's someone literally saying, How
come I can't have an app that basically shows my stuff?
Because I'm Rachel Maddow, and I want relevant stuff and
episodes, and also episodes, not just, here's another podcast,
usually, oh, this is the late curated they're looking for
someone who's into it to create a universe that, yes, you'd need
some meritocracy. But do you really, I mean someone, if
you're a developer and you have a if you have a hobby, you know,
a genre or something that you're interested in, why not create an
app that highlights that stuff you're already liking it so you
will be perfectly suited
Dave Jones: to that's Go ahead. That's like, I. Uh, it, it's
like that idea we talked about a few minutes ago, where it the
idea that you put more, you make more available, you put more in,
you get better results out. Sometimes that's in like, that's
just not the case. Like an app and like so true, true fans.
When true fans launched, he, he made a decision to launch, I
think, with, like, Was it like 5000 podcasts or something like
that? Was a very small number initially, at the very at the
beginning. And there was something really refreshing
about that
Adam Curry: I can see, I can see true fans being fans. Okay, so I
want to be a fan, and in this case of artists, because Sam's
got concert tickets and merch and all this stuff, focus on
that. Focus only on that. Be, be excel in that area. And people
can always, you can always, I also want to subscribe to, you
know, to Tucker Carlson, okay, fine. You can do that. But
getting getting something that excites people to use it, I
think they will flock to a podcast like that. If there was
a podcast app that only showed video podcasts, nothing else, I
would probably use like, Oh, this is where I get my videos.
Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, for sure, that's yeah. I mean, like
medium, medium centric podcast apps, like we only get, we only
do music,
Adam Curry: yeah. How about audio books? I mean, there's
nothing that says you can't just have an audio book podcast app.
Why not? What do you got to lose?
Dave Jones: I agree, backslay. I think I think
Adam Curry: backslash.
Dave Jones: So I agree. I like, I like, yeah, no, I think this
is I think this is good. We every something has to break the
mold, I think, because we've just got so many apps that look
the same and, and I think, I think it's, you know, Oscar did
something different, you know, by going all in on on the
Bitcoin and Oscar side of Things, true fans did something
different with the PWA and activity pub and all these kinds
of things. Like, there's, there's some of I think if
you're, if you're wanting to break into some of these
incumbent areas, I think you just have to do something
different. Well, you know, because people are habitual,
people just are less. Yes, yes. If nothing changes, to break you
out of that mental model, if you don't see a different thing,
you're just going to keep plugging away with the same
thing. Pocket Cast, overcast, Apple podcast,
Adam Curry: yes, yes, yes. And so when you So, Rachel Maddow is
very liberal, left political talk. So you don't just want to
do an MSNBC app. You want to do all kinds of liberal left
political talk and run your own algo on what or put your own
personality into it, whatever you want to bubble to the top,
you know, and have your users be able to create playlists and of
episodes and all kinds of things that they and you will get a big
audience, I think, much bigger than I'm here, everything for
everybody. App,
Dave Jones: if somebody created the, if somebody created today,
a podcast app that was called Pro prog, prog casts, you know,
there was all a bunch of progressive liberal shows, and
that's all it was. And they released that on the App Store.
They would, it would be immediately successful. Yes, you
could have 5 million downloads within six months, because
that's, it's like, that's where you're breaking the mold, and
you're and you're going, you're lean, you're sort of like
leaning towards this, this thing that is our, that people are, I
think, okay, maybe that's part of maybe that's what it is.
Maybe it's that culture is going in these certain directions,
like it's been going, you know, like, obviously, the political
divides have been getting starker that, you know, if it's
a spectrum for if it's even a spectrum, I don't think it is.
But if it's a left, right spectrum, you know, you got
people are going harder left, harder right. It could be just
because they're trying to define they're trying to carve out
their their place in all this, in all of this, in the midst of
an ocean of information that that just seems to be drowning
them. And so they're like, Okay, I'm hard left. It could just be
a mental response, a psychological response, to say,
I need space. I'm, I'm gonna set up my camp over here in this
segment of of the social of social society, because it's too
big. It's too much. I'm getting inundated all the time. And I
need, I need a I need space. And, you know, like, because
we're all carving out these pieces of the of the of the
world for ourselves. And if you sort of, sort of lean toward
that with a podcast app and say, Okay, well, you're, you're
hanging out of you're hanging out over here, well, here's this
thing. Some people take that refuge in sports, exactly,
Adam Curry: sports gambling. I mean, you name it.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, the no agenda community is
the same way. I mean, that's, that's a community that is
carved out, sort of like, you know that not or like, a borders
for itself, where you just like, here's, here's where you know
you can, you can list off a dozen shows that are no agenda
related shows, and it's just like, is, yep, that could be the
same thing.
Adam Curry: I'm gonna thank some people so I can get you out kind
of on time. Okay, by the way, very bad idea for everyone to
keep posting. How many minutes left?
Dave Jones: I'm so stressed right now.
Adam Curry: Y'all gotta stop. I'm stressed too. 3000 SATs from
a Chris, you know, he says on the topic of getting away from
mailbox zero podcast apps, I'd give anything for a podcasting
2.0 app that was exactly like an inbox. Move through the queue
with swipe actions, quickly assigned episodes to folders, ie
playlists, mail rules based on sender text in the title or show
notes. Get some, get close, but none achieve this. Well, that's
another tactic that's not exactly I don't want any talking
about I don't want it either.
Dave Jones: I don't want any of that. I want a big I want a big
stream of things coming by. And if something catches my eye, I
click it and I listen to it. If I happen to miss something that
I would have liked, I'm going to depend on my on a on somebody in
my community to send it to me later. 33,333
Adam Curry: from Sir Spencer, love that disco swag. He says
the dorfels have been at the forefront of the DIY d mu scene,
and we love it. D mu for decentralized music.
Dave Jones: Jen, stop it. Boober booberry with 3333
Adam Curry: does anyone else ever get that itch in the back
of their throat that only inevitable heat death of the
universe could scratch? Yes, every day. 333. From salty
crayon. Keep helipad. Eric. PP, yes, of course, he will. 17,776
from blueberry big freedom. Boost. MP, for his artwork would
be amazing. The resolution of the art would be amazing. Clear
your schedule, by the way, for Sunday, September 22 tune in
after no agenda to catch the satellite skirmish. Autumn rust
a day, low value for value, Battle Royale. New bands, new
emcees, new boost animations. Boost the bands and crew
directly. And watch lit at live is lit.com Yes. Well, there's a
whole nother app I would use for that, for a community like that,
these laughs. He says, October, surprise coming soon. Yes. Mike
Dell 1701, Star Trek, boost, listening on my new flip phone.
LLP, what does llap mean? Llap?
Unknown: I don't know what that means yet. My new flip, flown
Lou, yeah, 3000
Adam Curry: from Chris. You know, has anyone considered coin
os.io as a podcaster. Wallet sign up is just choosing a
username, no email needed. Even open source so someone could add
in key send or use the lightning address. They give you an A
nostr wallet connects like Albi, uses custodial but super easy,
slick PWA. Can also send someone a pre funded wallet link that
just works, or have to take a look at that and no idea what
that is. 6341, from chimp. Life is serious. Life is depressing.
Embrace the void, okay,
Unknown: jeez.
Adam Curry: And then we got a couple of test boosts, 1000 from
Chad F, who was boosting the depressing song, Nate Jonathan,
don't worry. 1234, from Dr Scott. Boosts are failing to the
boost bot figured, yeah, we fixed that during the show. We
opened up a channel. You just run out of liquidity. So the
boost bot is back. 1234, from Dr Scott boosty mctess, boost, and
I think Did you get the pastor combs, boost, you might not have
that one. I'll read it because that's just before the
delimiter. 3333 from Pastor combs. He says, God be with you,
brothers. Pasty cope, Pastor combsy Here, I'm sure you've
I've heard from others, but Fountain has been basically
unusable since the update. I know they're working hard, but
it's been really hard to stick with it. Audio constantly stops,
and that's if you can get it to even play. Workaround has has
even to delete all episodes uninstalled and reinstall even
using the test flight version isn't working. Need is. To say
it's super tedious. Currently using fountain to boost and pod
verse to listen hashtag, growing pains, yes, these are very tough
times. We're seeing the same thing with Marco with overcast.
This very difficult when you do a big update on an app. So stay
with it. Give him some grace.
Dave Jones: Yeah, Oscar sent us a message saying that, I mean,
it was basically a perfect storm for him. They did a big update.
That update had some bugs, and so they went and they fixed the
bugs. But then, in the meantime, they deprecated one of the
libraries, one of the, like, audio libraries that he was
using and they wouldn't. And so he has, he's like, having to, if
I understood him correctly, he's having to, in a mad dash, recode
part of his audio engine from scratch. Oh, yeah, that's
horrible. I mean, he's worked. I mean, he's going as fast as he
can. He's, he's, he sounded stressed.
Adam Curry: Mike Dell, Mike Dell clarifies, uh, LLP, live long
and prosper. Uh, flip phone is a course s 22 Oh yes, that's a
very robust flip phone. We've
Dave Jones: got some PayPals. We've got starting off. We've
got the guys at bus sprout and the girls there too. They all
pitched in and they sent us $1,000
Unknown: shot caller. 20 is Blaze only, Impala
Adam Curry: keeping the 2.0 chimney smoking. Thank you.
Thank you both sprouts. Thank you very much.
Dave Jones: We need working here. That's right. It's all
white smoke.
Adam Curry: That's right. Thank you. Thank you very much, very
much.
Dave Jones: Gene Liverman sent us five bucks and he he is a new
subscriber. He did automatic payment. All right, welcome. Is
your Defragmenter fully charged? Because we I think you need to
Adam Curry: use it again. Yeah, hold on. It's plugged in. Go for
Dave Jones: it. Okay? It's uh, OYSTEIN bear, $5 a month,
automatic payment.
Adam Curry: Thank you. OYSTEIN, appreciate that.
Dave Jones: Did I say that name? Right? Was that?
Adam Curry: Yeah, oyster lost
Dave Jones: my place. Where are we at? Where are we at with
booster grams, I got a resort. This is all this is the
boardroom
Adam Curry: stress. You're stressed. You're stressed. Man,
I know you're stressed.
Dave Jones: Gene bean, 2222 through cast O Matic, the sad
truth is that we've been conditioned to use apps on
mobile devices. PWA is just do cut it when trying to onboard so
many people today, maybe one day they will, but that day doesn't
seem to be today. I'm really glad true fans is going to offer
ABS so as to make it accessible to the masses. All right. Yep,
yep. True. True. Uh. G anonymous, 6969 through
fountain. Says, just saying,
Unknown: Thank you, Sir
Dave Jones: Brian of London, 11 948, through caste O Matic, he
says, boosting from hive Fest in Split Croatia,
Adam Curry: ooh. Boost, high fest. Hive fest,
Dave Jones: a Croatian. Boost, I can't believe you made me think
about coming in through. Rachel Maddow, entrance, hole, Brian,
sorry, stop. Come on. I'm gonna, we're gonna have to censor,
yeah, really? Randall, black, 56 sets out of 1111, a satchel.
Richards, he says. Brad joner, joining the value verse. Brad
johnner,
Adam Curry: oh, oh yes, that was the song we played. Yeah,
joining the value
Dave Jones: verse is huge. Great, award winning Canadian
artist now just gets CD, baby. Did not flag songs in V, for V
on YouTube for copyright strikes. Go podcast. Go
Adam Curry: podcasting indeed.
Dave Jones: And Gene bean, 2222 again, through castematic, he
says, Dave, it's okay not to be on call. 24/7 365, we will all
survive if you take time off for self help. This, I've never felt
less, less healthy than our day right now. Really, that said, I
mean, that was hyperbole, but oh, the distress I've completely
I'm holding my hand in front of the boardroom. IRC, yes, that's
hard. Thanks for looking into the aggregator issue, rapidly,
thinking about long term sustainability. How can we make
you not the only one who's able to fix some of these wacky
things? That's good. That's bring
Adam Curry: back the chocolate beef milkshakes. That's the only
way to fix that problem. Yeah.
Dave Jones: So I can have more power. That's the answer. Good.
Power. Good one power comic strip blogger, the delimiter,
24,000 SATs nice through fountain says, howdy, Dave and
Adam. Today, I would like to recommend hyper catcher, a
podcast player, app for iPhone and iPad. Search in App Store
for hyper. Catcher written together in the middle, or visit
www.hypercatcher.com this app can generate transcripts for
podcasts that don't have them for free on device. What's very
helpful as transcripts can be uploaded, for example, to LLM
like Claude, an AI assistant from anthropic or chat GPT from
open AI for summarizing and data query purpose, yo, CSB,
Adam Curry: it should just, it should just have in your podcast
app a podcast daily that just summarizes all the podcasts
you're not going to listen to anymore. It's perfect.
Dave Jones: If I could have a podcast app that after I haven't
listened to a podcast in maybe three days, if it would just
remove you on my list.
Adam Curry: Give me a catch up and remove all old episodes.
Well, there you go. A digest, you know, digest the die, cast,
digest, cast, Yeah,
Dave Jones: cuz you know, you have those things where it's
like on this mailing list, do you want to get every message in
your inbox?
Adam Curry: Yeah, you go, tried and true. Tried and True.
Dave Jones: Got some, got some monthlies. We got new media
productions. That's Rob and Todd. $30 thank you. Timothy
voice, $10 uh. Michael Hall, $5.50 Thank you. Michael Jeremy
gerds, $5 and Satan's lawyer, $5
Adam Curry: the advocate is always in the house. We have our
eye on you. We got our eye on you. All right, brother, get
out. Go back. Go back to the to the mill, back to the grind.
Dave Jones: Okay, I'm out. Yeah, I
Adam Curry: got you in last seven minutes. Not too bad. Have
a great weekend, brother. Yeah, you too All right. Thank you
very much. Boardroom. We'll be back next week with more
podcasting. 2.0 you
Unknown: podcasts are cool. You have been listening to
podcasting 2.0 visit podcast index.org for more information.
Go
podcasting Nerdfighters, nerdfight. You.