Adam Curry: Podcasting 2.0 for october 11, 2024 episode 197,
yay. Jason, oh yes, everybody. I am Jax. I'm jacked and Ginny,
it's time once again for podcasting 2.0 because it's
Friday the beginning of your weekend. This is exactly what
you need to get you into the mood. It is Quentin time.
Everybody. Welcome to the board meeting of podcasting. 2.0
everything's going on in podcasting. We, of course, are
the only boardroom that never puts anything behind a paywall
and is always premium content. I'm Adam curry here in the heart
of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who hashes hctp
without fear or favor, say hello to my friend on the other end,
the one, the only Mr. Ons himself, Dave Jones,
Dave Jones: you sound crunchy. Crunchy? Yeah, you just say you
just crunched. When you replied to me, it's got, I must have you
jacked too much.
Adam Curry: You know, I noticed, I think something changed with
clean feed, or something changed in Windows that I would actually
blame windows for anything else, because I noticed that I
actually had to turn down the output that's going into clean
feed. I'm minus four dB on myself. I wonder
Dave Jones: you where this is very crunchy. Now, crunchy, very
crunching. Just me or the No, no, it's
Adam Curry: boardroom. No, it's, uh, it's only the clean feed
stuff. And Dvorak complained about that too. But I'm like,
You're over
Dave Jones: modulate. I mean, you're like, Oh, I'm
Adam Curry: over modulating.
Dave Jones: Let me see what I got. Oh, you just pumped it out,
right. There. You were super modulating.
Adam Curry: Hold on a second. Let me check this for a second.
Auto mute. No, I don't want that here. Let me see, oh, routing,
oh, I can't do anything, hmm, I have a feeling it's something
with either something,
Dave Jones: I mean, I can put it, I I'm, I'm fine with it. I
can tolerate it, for
Adam Curry: sure, yeah, but I don't, I don't like you having
issues with me.
Dave Jones: Yeah, Daniel, Daniel's in the board, in the in
the boardroom. He said, Adam sounds like he's clipping. I
couldn't even hear him
Adam Curry: one second. Let me see, manage sound devices, like
I'm clipping, like I'm clipping, yeah, additional clip, it clip.
Let me see levels enhancement, advanced levels. Uh, no, that's
not it. Hold on.
Dave Jones: Are you enhanced?
Adam Curry: Well, in more ways than one, my friend, let me tell
you. Let me tell you, Oh, second device properties, microphone.
Here we go. Additional device settings. Let me see. How about
if I bring this back? Does that change anything? Or does it just
get softer? One softer, but it's better, it doesn't 121212 how's
that better? Yeah, better. Or as it used to be, one two, as it
used to be. Oh, okay, well, then I think windows just decided to
let me do this. 1212 okay, 1212 how's that? Is that That's good,
yeah, okay, I can pull it down a little bit like that. Okay,
yeah,
Dave Jones: sounds good. Okay, well, yeah, because I didn't
change my slider on you, and then all of a sudden you were
just like, you pumping it out. Like, yeah,
Adam Curry: Dvorak was complaining about that yesterday
too. I think, I think windows just decided to change
something. Hey, I you know what? Let's, let's turn up this level.
For no reason.
Dave Jones: Did it turn on the oral exciter? No, I, you didn't
know. That's
Adam Curry: the first thing I checked make make sure there's
no oral exciter on there. Can't have any of that. Hello there.
Dave, how you doing? Brother,
Dave Jones: hey, hey,
Adam Curry: what's up? Yeah. Well, it's time, once again, for
a board meeting. Podcasting 2.0 lots to talk about. A lot of
people yapping about stuff. A lot of things going on. A lot
happening. Tuesday, that's going to be what happened in 2004 The
Verge is putting that out. I did my, my bit of the interview for
today.
Dave Jones: Okay, so this is a this without, with only knowing
the title. This is a backgrounder on podcasting and
its history. I
Adam Curry: think it's a little more than that. I think because
2004 you know, YouTube was coming, Facebook was coming,
Twitter was coming. It's like 2004 somehow was an important
year where a lot of things happened. I think that's but
yes, podcasting would obviously be the the most important thing
that happened in 2004
Dave Jones: Okay, so they lumped you in with the 2004 parade of
of tech.
Adam Curry: Yeah, there you go. I was, I was the last one that
kept hearing you. Like, Hey, can't I'm like, Man, I don't
really have time. And then, and the guy finally says, like,
Look, man, I gotta have this in by Friday evening. Like, oh,
what is it again? Oh, okay, yeah, let's do it.
Dave Jones: Okay, but you just roll it. I mean, you, you got
you. Got that, that thing, pretty much nailed. I mean, you,
you don't have to, like, you can just roll in there and do that
story with anybody, right? Yeah, well, I
Adam Curry: try to mix it up, you know, I try to put in some
extra things and make it exciting, make it a little
unique for everybody. Yeah, it's good that
Dave Jones: it's not just, like another history of podcasting,
because that's been done. So I'm to death, you
Adam Curry: know, it's not that. It's not, no, I like, I like
their angle. I like the angle of what happened in 2004
Dave Jones: and what happened in 2007 with the cell phone. And,
Adam Curry: yeah, yeah. So I was listening to the new media money
and video show yesterday.
Unknown: It's my new name for it in MMV.
Adam Curry: MMV, V, yes, the new media money and video show,
because that's all they talk about, is video and money and
and I heard that you were, you Judas, you were, yes, you were
boosting the new media show and not listening to booster Graham
ball,
Dave Jones: no, here, here's what happened. I saw, I saw
booster Grand Ball was live, yeah, but the feed was messed up
because from from the void zero stuff, I didn't get the live
notification for booster and ball on my phone until, like the
show was almost I got a boot. I got the notification, the push
notification, I hit it went into pod verse, and you were like,
all right, that about does it? We're gonna hit the last I was
like, oh, okay, all right, well, so, so then I was like, what
else is live? And I like, some new media show was live. And so
they got in and started, you know, boosting those guys,
right?
Adam Curry: But they go live around two o'clock our time,
right? So my timing was right, because child was making it
sound like we were doing at the same time, like, I don't think
so I wouldn't do that,
Dave Jones: see, because that's what I that's what I thought
when I got the notice, and I was like, Oh, they're going, they're
going head to head, man, that's, that's a bold move. So
Adam Curry: this was an interesting thing, because, I
mean, the way the the void zero system works, which I think a
lot of people are using, the no agenda infrastructure runs a lot
of things for the community, including the stream and the
chat and the boardroom and the troll room and all that stuff.
And the way it works is you upload your file, whatever it
is, straight up FTP, and then he has this little mini CDN of, I
think, four or six servers in different locations around the
world, and just does a synchronization. You get an
email, and you're done. So when I publish my feed, which then
has the live item in it, you know, obviously I get an email
notification. I don't always look for the email notification,
but I can see, you know, stuff starts to go off or not, and I
get, I get pings that's live now. It's very kind of hit or
miss, because the whatever, I guess I'm using podcast guru,
which does its own parsing, I think that's probably why I got
the why I got the notification. But even uploading the feed, it
really depended on which server your app or whatever it was was
hitting, whether you got the updated feed or not. So if you
happen to get the one, I think podcast guru just got lucky.
Yeah, exactly. So it just happened to get the one where I
upload the file because the synchronization wasn't working.
And then after I'm done with the show, I'm like, publishing. And
I'm like, How come it's an episodes.fm updated? That's
what's interesting. Like, okay, because I guess episodes.fm
doesn't look to the index. When you use something, it doesn't
have an iTunes ID, I just use the URL. So it got lucky. It
said, Okay, good to go, good to publish. And then there's all
kind and of course, the errors come like, Hey, I'm not getting
it. This is not happening. That's not I don't understand
what's going on. And I'm like, I don't I can't figure it out
because I can see the feed. I refresh the page, I get I get it
from the servers. It looks good. And then you say, No, I'm not
getting it because I pinged you opened it in my browser, and it
was right. And then, so I refresh my browser, and then it
wasn't there. Then it was only episode 23 I'm like, okay,
something screwed up. I immediately think, caching, but
boy, that's a long cache. Trying to bust the cache. Re uploading
stuff. So I wind up. I hit Telegram for void zero. He's not
responding. So I pull the bat sigma, pull the emergency rip
cord, which is a text which I'm in his priority group. So he
gets woken up in the middle of the night in Holland. Oh
Unknown: yeah. He
Adam Curry: says, what? So what? And because I also have to do
curry and the keeper that night, so I'm like, something's wrong,
man. He says, Oh, let me see if I can fix it. And he says, oh,
yeah, I did an upgrade of everything earlier today. Like,
oh no, cool. Well, he's learned he doesn't do these things
before, you know, on a show day, so that's good. But of course, I
do a show almost every day, and so, you know, he switched to
Knicks a while. L
Dave Jones: back, NixOS, Nix OS. And
Adam Curry: so this is apparently some kind of deep
seated bug. Even had to open up a GitHub issue for it. I wonder
what it was. I don't know exactly, but he, he jerry rigged
it somehow, and it got it working again. And then, but
then, of course, yesterday, I got another like fear moment
when I get last night, I'm going to bed, and I get all these I
just hit the Twitter timeline, which I you know, just due to
the inbox, what's going on, and people are mad, like, what Apple
hasn't updated in over three hours? And so I verify
Instagram, ball or no for no agenda, for no agenda, and I
think it was just an apple parsing error or whatever it
was. And every, every tweet said, Time to switch to a modern
podcast app. See, yep, because that's one of the features I
always, I always say, if you get a modern podcast app, you get
almost real time updates. You know, there's no waiting around
for hours. And so this is thank you Apple for marketing that
that was great.
Dave Jones: Now I want to talk about that a little bit today
too. Well,
Adam Curry: should we bring in our guest? Should we bring in
our guest? Yeah, sure, since this guest knows a lot about
podcasting, he's been around for a hot minute. You know him from
the podcast. The audacity, the audacity to podcast. You also
know him as the man behind pod. Gageman, welcome to the
boardroom, everybody. Mr. Daniel J Lewis,
Unknown: thank you. Thank
Daniel J. Lewis: you. Thank you. Adam, thank you Dave. Thank you
everyone. Don't worry, we'll just edit out all that other
stuff that happened earlier? No, we leave that in
Adam Curry: there. They're talking about that would that's
the best part is when it all screws up
Dave Jones: the future of podcasting. That's that's your
that's your gig.
Adam Curry: I forgot that. Yes, the future of podcasting,
another podcast. Hey, Daniel, how you doing?
Daniel J. Lewis: I'm doing great. I just love what we're
doing with podcasting 2.0 and as you know, I just love the
industry.
Dave Jones: What did you so go 2004 was that? Was that earlier
than you? Or when do you? How do you fit in that mix? Yeah,
Daniel J. Lewis: for me, I didn't come into podcasts until
oh five, because it was with the introduction of podcasts. Or as
Steve Jobs said it back then, podcasting in iTunes 4.9 then my
boss, an Apple fanboy, was all like, this podcast thing is so
incredible. You gotta check it out. I thought, Oh, another
thing from Apple. I didn't like Apple back then, so I checked it
out, and I was hooked, because I was so burned out on talk radio.
I had a long commute back then, and I was burned out on local
talk radio, the sports and news on the nines or whatever it was.
And then I discovered this world of podcasts where I could listen
to exactly the information I wanted. And then at some point,
I realized I know how to do this same kind of thing. I was a web
developer, web designer. I had some production background, and
eventually it took me two years to actually get going, because I
struggle with perfectionism, but eventually I just wanted to jump
in. And it took people to say what I'm sure Adam is thinking
right now is, don't try to be perfect, just jump in and do it.
You're
Adam Curry: a Hall of Famer, aren't you? I am. Yeah, right,
yeah. Hall of Fame,
Dave Jones: our RSS and podcasting will cure you of
perfectionism very quickly
Adam Curry: or kill you, as I was just talking with, with,
with the guy from The Verge. And I'm like, that's the best part
of podcasting. It wasn't all the pros. It was the, it was the, as
Apple would say, the crazy ones back in the day. That's what
made it interesting. When I hear Michael Butler going, I just
drank a six pack and I decided to crack the mic.
Dave Jones: Oh, that's old food bar Fridays and all the other
Yeah, it was good. Let me, let me talk about episodes.fm. For
just second, because, as I've struggled with that this week,
and I think it pertains to just the messiness of podcasting, the
you know, so this the the the forever, quote, unquote side
project that we, that
Adam Curry: we're building, which you keep leaking out. I
didn't do that on purpose.
Dave Jones: That was Spurlock. So Spurlock, I think what
happens is, I think if I visualize Spurlock, he has no
life, none.
Adam Curry: He has none, 2000 screens in his in his cave,
yeah, and he's
Dave Jones: looking at it, you know, like, like in the matrix,
where it had all they would just stare at those screens with the
green jump floating, flying down the screen, floating down. Yeah,
I think that's what he just looks at, pod ping all days,
just float, just watching it, because he saw the, he saw the
pod pings come through and like, back channel me so the but, I
mean, I gotta test the stuff, you know. I can't, I can't hold
it back.
Adam Curry: I. Know, I know I'm actually, I'm, I love James
Cridland, who accidentally received logging credentials on
in a group chat, and he is, and he hasn't even said anything
about it, you know, he's like, I'm just not gonna say anything.
I was immediately thinking, would, do you think Dave's
parsing the log to see if he actually logged in or not.
Dave Jones: No, I did not do because, yeah, that's what I
told you. I was like. I was like, yeah, leave it to leave it
to me to accidentally send login credentials for this unreleased
product to the journal, to the podcast, journalist, that's a
great idea.
Adam Curry: Don't worry. Everybody will be uncloaking
soon. We'll be it will be uncloaking soon. We will be all
right. So anyway, yes, pod episodes.fm,
Dave Jones: yeah. So this, this is actually, I want your take on
this too, Daniel, because you're the keeper of the of everything
Apple directory adjacent and like the Pro. So the issue that
I ran into is this, this thing that we're building, it creates
feeds. Now, I mean, these are not, I mean, this is not a
hosting platform. That's not what this is, but it does create
feeds. And so these feeds have to, they have to get into
circulation somehow. And it's a very, it's a very quick process.
So it creates a feed, and these feeds need to be out there and
subscribable. And of course, they are with an RSS URL
immediately. But then, you know, the issue is, then, okay, how do
you present it to the world in a way where they can easily
subscribe, which is always been the Achilles heel of podcasting.
And so Nathan's episodes.fm I was like, Oh, this is, this is a
godsend. I mean, this is great. I'm just gonna plug this thing
in. And when, when you fire up a feed as a site. It's a side
effect of this other thing, this feed pops out. Well, then I'll
just pump that through episodes.fm and then the
listener can use episodes.fm which is this beautiful user
interface and and so easy. The problem is, you push this feed
over. Do you push this feed URL over to epso.fm, and this thing
is a new feed. It's the world has never seen this thing
before. You know, 30 seconds ago it didn't exist. So it's not in
any directories. It's not in any sort of distribution whatsoever.
So you're immediately going to be limited to only podcast apps
that can support local ingestion of an RSS feed, or podcasts that
pull from the index, because we're pod pinging it immediately
into the index, and the index ingests, you know, instantly,
instantly. So you but the but the the experience you get. And
this is not the fault of episodes of.fm this is the this
is just the problem of podcastings work. Yeah. The
problem with podcast distribution is that the like
the top two spots are Spotify and Apple podcasts. Those two
things are there. They have their own directories, and
they're also gatekeepers. You have to create an account on
their system and then submit your feed to them, so you're
that feed is never going to be in there. So those two, those
first two links, the ones to everybody's familiar with, are
just going to result in in nothing. I mean, like Apple's
gonna the apple link is gonna, is gonna break?
Daniel J. Lewis: Yeah, well, there is a workaround for that,
at least for Apple is okay. And some other apps do this too,
where they have a website version. Uh, no. Even better
than that, there is a, either it's a HTML or HTML. Sorry, not
forget the HT part. We'll edit that out. Dot
Adam Curry: htm. Yes, Daniel, it
Daniel J. Lewis: is the you replace HTTPS with podcast. So
it's podcast colon and then the RSS Feed URL that will activate
the podcast app. Even on right now I'm on the latest Mac OS
that can access Apple podcasts through the browser, but it
still launches my app and it prompts me to follow that RSS
feed directly. And there are many other apps that support the
same kind of thing, where you just pass in the feed URL as
some form of the app URL. It's not always the schema that's
used sometimes it is just a straight URL, like, I think
podcast attic does this, where, if you do podcast addict.com/i,
think it might just be feed slash, and then it's the feed
URL. It allows you to subscribe directly to that feed Spotify,
of course, doesn't do that,
Adam Curry: but you. Used to be with episodes.fm it would, and I
think that's a change that was made, it would highlight
browsers that use or that recognize this feed or have
already subscribed. It was something especially for Live
episodes now, now I still get the full list. It also used to
also only support or only show apps that supported the live
tag. I think that's a change that was made.
Dave Jones: The Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, for sure on that.
That's okay. So what you said, Daniel, about the podcast link,
I I see this. I saw that. This was with this was what was, what
was happening with episodes.fm when you went to Apple podcast,
the problem is that I get Apple I get so I just did this on my
Linux machine. I went to one of these feeds, clicked through to
episodes.fm, and what I'm seeing is, here's the list I'm seeing.
G and again, this is not a this is not a criticism of
episodes.fm, this is just the the wonkiness of the way
podcasting is, is what I get is g Potter is the top spot Spotify
is the next one that feeds not going to be in there. So what
it's going to do is it's going to do a cert it, it's going to
kick me to a Spotify search for the title, which is fine,
that's, that's a good way to fall back, but this, but the
feeds just not going to be there. So that's not the user is
going to be confused. They're not going to know what to do.
Then it gives ln beats Pocket Casts, and the fifth one down is
Apple podcasts. But see, I'm, I'm on a Linux box, so this
apple podcast link is just, is not going to, is not going to do
anything. It's just going to, it's just going to fail. So that
that's, that's the like, it only works. That only works if your
own device or on Mac, but the link still shows up for other
platforms. So you still get this confusing, like, I don't know
what's happening here. Now, I'm sure Nathan has, you know, ways
to, like, detect platform and work around some of these
issues. But if you look at the full if you just go down the
full list and look at all the different options, you have a
lot of exceptions. There's a lot of exceptions. There's more
exceptions than non exceptions, is what I'm saying. And
Adam Curry: well, that's it. Our project has failed.
Dave Jones: Well, you know, I think it kind of brought up to
me that that, you know, these, these two, these, the two
biggest platforms of Spotify and Apple are they're acting as i
They can do whatever. Yeah, they, yeah. They the
gatekeepers. Because my, my feed, can't get into their
system in a new in any way with, you know, like, it can, it can't
get into their directory, is what I'm saying.
Daniel J. Lewis: Okay, so you're saying, like, if you haven't
intentionally submitted your feed, right, right, then it
doesn't appear in these other apps that rely on Apple's
catalog for their list of podcasts.
Dave Jones: Yes, exactly, yes, exactly. And so, you know, it's,
it would not be, and it's understandable. They can do
whatever they want. They can run their directories and their
platforms however they want, if they want to be
Adam Curry: a holes, yes,
Dave Jones: but, but it, but what it leaves is this thing
that's supposed to be open, that that really, that that isn't,
you mean, like
Adam Curry: YouTube podcasts, I mean, yeah, come on this. Yeah,
that's what they're doing. They're breaking the system, and
that forces everybody to go through their on ramp and go
through Spotify on ramp and long term that will that's not a
winning strategy, but right now, it's going to be pain. I think
we
Dave Jones: have this thing in, you know, in the in the open
web, or in the on the web, we have links, you know, and then
so, and they start with a URL scheme of HTTP or HTTPS, and
that scheme is a trigger that that every platform handles the
same way it always considers this a link to some sort of web
request page. Podcasting just doesn't have this equivalent. It
doesn't have a universal URL scheme that like the way it
works on what you're saying with Daniel, the way it works on, on
on the iPhone, is that podcast scheme. You know, it'll at
least, this was my experience the lat, any app can register
that podcast scheme. So when you're when you're hitting it,
whatever the. Last app you installed, that's the one that
catches it.
Daniel J. Lewis: Yeah, here's an example of that. I also have
downcast installed on my Mac, and if I do it PC, colon, slash,
slash, which is supposed to be for iTunes podcast. It's that
old that should open an apple podcast, but right now that
prompts me to open in downcast. What
Adam Curry: is happening here, gentlemen? Is we have just
scratched a very old scar and we have opened up the wound down to
the bone. Yeah,
Dave Jones: and you know, this is okay, like Nathan says in the
boardroom. I wasn't expecting a Linux user try to listen to an
apple podcast. If they want to listen in a browser, they can
listen on EFM. Okay, so let me, let me talk about that for a
second, because you're right. Nathan, in this see what, what
we're building is going to have a very specific use case, very
specific and so the web is already where this thing is
going to be so it doesn't make it doesn't make any sense to
sort of like just go sideways over to another web player. Um,
well, it could in certain circumstances, but, but not in
this one. But the thing is, so I think ultimately, what I'm what
I'm realizing, is that there's like, for well established
shows, first shows that have distribution, they're going to
episodes.fm is going to just be a godsend. It's like, boom,
right through,
Adam Curry: yeah. If you have an iTunes ID, you mean well, or
even
Dave Jones: just an HTTP Feed URL that is well known, that's
in these directories, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if, if my, if my
show was in Spotify, even you know, then that search would
have returned it, and it would have been a seamless transition,
like it would have been perfect, but for before new feed, yeah,
this use case, I think what the issue is is we're just going to
have to be opinionated about which apps we want people to
use. Well,
Daniel J. Lewis: there are two kind of solutions with this. One
is that, yeah, you you be opinionated with it, and you
recommend those top apps. And anyone who uses something other
than those top apps is probably going to be familiar enough with
their own app to be able to search for the podcast, but
telling people to search in their app, I am against that.
The other approach that you could take, yeah, you can also
do the smart kind of thing, and I've been doing that with a
feature of podgagement, where I display, I detect the device
that's visiting the page, and I display only what's compatible
with that device. And there could be something there too,
kind of like, what with what Nathan does with episodes.fm,
where you can have it remember your selection, and that
remembering the selection leads to the other thing do you know
about blueberries? Subscribe on android.com.
Dave Jones: Yeah, that's nice some JavaScript or something.
Daniel J. Lewis: It's something that the app developers had to
put into their app. I don't know exactly how it works, but it is
something they had to put into their app, but it's super simple
code that they can support. And what that allows it to do is
that if someone visits subscribe on android.com it will open that
podcast in their preferred app, or whatever app it is that they
have installed on their system, as long as it's supported. So
that kind of thing, that's what we need. But that, and also just
this idea, going back to kind of an abandoned thing in
podcasting, 2.0 is the fast follow idea. That's really what
we need. Here is some way that people can quickly follow a
podcast from whatever app, both clicking a link inside of that
app as well as opening really any podcast link, if possible,
to automatically trigger opening that in their preferred app, and
some of that, I know we're limited because of what you can
do with the mobile operating system, but there are certain
things that you can do with these URL schemas and the the
JavaScript tricks or URL patterns to potentially remember
a favorite app, like what Nathan is doing with episodes.fm.
Dave Jones: Yeah, I think, I think this, you know, I don't
expect this to be, I don't know, solved ever fully in a way
that's satisfactory, which, you know, I think the solution we're
all looking for, if we could all just sit down in room with with
the platforms, and say, you know, with the mobile platforms,
and say, okay, look, this is what we want. I think we would
all come up with something like, when I click on a podcast,
colon, slash, slash, link, it pops up a list and ask me which
installed players I want to which, which one of these do we
want to use that that's like, this beautiful, you know. A
system that we would all want. It's probably a pipe dream to
think that's ever going to happen any, you know, ever, but
especially not anytime soon. But you know, in the meantime, you
know this, yeah, like you said, I think we're going to have to
just be, not be afraid, to be opinionated about, hey, here's a
bunch. Here's my use case. This, this, this thing I'm building,
and I'm speaking as just general developer here, this thing I'm
building has these needs. It needs live support or funding
tag support, or blah, blah, blah, you list all the things it
needs, and then you say, okay, which apps fit that criteria?
Which apps do I, you know, do those things? And you say, Okay,
well, these seven apps do that. Well, I'm just going to
recommend those apps, and I'm just going to link out to those
things, and I'm not even, I'm just not going to worry about
Spotify or Apple or these other things, because, I mean,
podcasters, clearly, you know, have Adam's listenership, he's
moved from on no agenda. You've moved your a massive amount of
people from, from just standard apps, oh, yeah, pre installed
apps, over to other apps.
Adam Curry: Yeah. Thank you Apple for not updating.
Dave Jones: Yeah. I mean, like, if you ask your listeners to
consider using this other app, many of them will. And if you
just give them that option when you link out, well, a lot of
them will also just go get that app. That's, I think we're a
little afraid to be opinionated, I guess, and so. And I'm
learning to sort of live with that discomfort.
Adam Curry: I'm looking at the top apps for no agenda, pod
verse, 13% at number two. Podcast addicts, eight and a
half. Overcast seven. Podcast guru, six. These are big
numbers. I mean, they're smaller than Apple podcasts, which is
34% and that's your change after, after this week,
fountain, 4.6 of course, there's zero Spotify in there because
we're not on Spotify, and it hasn't hurt me.
Dave Jones: Yeah, in because I think a lot of people don't mind
it, Spotify is, is like a podcast app of opportunity. I
don't think anybody ever goes chooses that as their first one.
You know, it's convenient sometimes.
Adam Curry: Well, you know, in other countries, like Italy, I
know, as an example, Spotify really launched podcasting. They
weren't really listening to podcasts. And these past two
years, Spotify did a big Blitz. They got a lot of famous
comedians, and they put them all on Spotify. So when people say,
you on Spotify, and I say no, that you could see them go, Oh,
okay. And I just say, No, we're on these other ones. But I
agree, just we being opinionated is not a bad thing.
Daniel J. Lewis: I think that I want to challenge that idea of
it's not hurting me. And I did a whole episode about this once on
the audacity to podcast that we really can't know that unless
you have a parallel universe to split test things in, you really
can't know. Are you missing audience? Because you've done in
one platform.
Adam Curry: I've done the A B and the A B. I only have one
metric. I was just helping someone with this thing. I have
one metric. Am I receiving enough value in return for the
value I'm putting out there? We were on Spotify for a bit when
they first launched. They ingested us. I had never asked
for it. Didn't even know it. And then, and then I discovered it,
and I said, I said, take it off. They took it off. And there were
some people who said, Oh, you're no longer on Spotify. But what
didn't change, Daniel, is the value we
Daniel J. Lewis: received, right? Because that's the metric
that matters to you. In this case, that's
Adam Curry: the only metric in podcasting that matters.
Daniel J. Lewis: People value different things. So for some
people, the value is they just want a big audience. Like in my
podcast, I teach this profit paradigm, which profit stands
for popularity, relationships, opportunity, fun, income and
tangibles so different ways that people can get value from their
audience, as well as give value to their audience through their
podcast. And so for some people, they just want to be popular.
They just want a big audience. They want their audience
listening in whatever app they want. But then there are the
others,
Adam Curry: and I would, and I would be okay with that, Daniel,
if, if the if I could just be in any app people want to use, but
the fact that I need to sign a sign an agreement with both
Apple and with Spotify that's already breaking the basic
agreement. So I. As an American, I will not stand for that. Yeah,
yeah. I'm telling you, that's the part that is pissing me off.
It's like, that's the only thing. It's like, yeah, okay,
you want, you want to be Spotify, great, but don't force
me to sign some kind of terms of service with you. That's not
okay, that that's total horse crap. So now with Apple, and
this is the one thing I'd love to still find a workaround for.
For our project, you can subscribe manually to a podcast.
You can just input the feed into into Apple. Now, go ahead.
Daniel J. Lewis: There's a very good reason to do that for any
shows that are controversial or concerned that they might be de
platformed in any way, because I keep harping on this since iOS
14.5 you know that catastrophic event that came out since then,
Apple no longer subscribes people directly to RSS feeds.
Now, when you press subscribe or follow in Apple podcast, you are
connected to Apple's proxy of that podcast about that. So if
Apple or the podcaster remove themselves from Apple podcast,
the audience is disconnected from the podcast. 301,
redirects, do not save this. It is all about the audience is now
following the listing, the catalog listing of the podcast.
So like that whole thing that happened with Alex Jones was
before iOS 14.5 and back then when it happened, when Apple
kicked him out of Apple podcasts and Stitcher were really the
first people to kick him out. But when Apple did it, he didn't
lose any of his existing Apple podcast audience at that time.
If that happened today,
Adam Curry: because the app actually was subscribed to the
feed and not to
Daniel J. Lewis: happen today, though, he would lose his entire
apple podcast audience. So this is a big reason why anyone who's
concerned about freedom of speech or censorship, corporate
censorship, government censorship, for whatever reason,
they should not recommend subscribing from a catalog like
Apple and certainly not Spotify. Spotify has always been this
way, but Apple switched to being this way because Apple can stand
between the audience. Apple could even prevent a single
episode from going out. We know
Adam Curry: they do we know they do this. We know we know they do
it. We know that Spotify does it. Specific episodes are de
platformed,
Daniel J. Lewis: and they have if
Dave Jones: you're ahead, you know, if you're somebody who
listens to a lot of podcasts, or somebody who's familiar enough
with podcasts to um, uh, to know what to do, to even subscribe to
one, then I feel like it's very difficult to just live in
Spotify, because you're going to have so many instances where
either something you want is not on it, or you have a private
feed, or some it, it, I guess what I'm saying is it's it
takes, it doesn't take much for everyone to to hit a roadblock
at some point where they have to get some other app. Now, whether
that's just the apple podcast default app, or the, you know,
YouTube default, whatever that might that's, you know, that's
fine, but it, it's, it seems like it's because Spotify is so
closed, gated, um, against anything that's, you can't use
our private RSS feeds with it. So if, you know, if you have a a
private, like membership feed, like I do for America this week.
It's a it's a private feed coming out of sub stack. I
couldn't even use that in sub in Spotify if I wanted to, right?
So it doesn't take much before you can get a barrier and have
to use some other app. Anyway. Let
Adam Curry: me tell you something about human nature
from historical perspective. Back in the 70s, growing up in
Europe, the Netherlands specifically, but it was the
same for the for the BBC was the same for the German all public
broadcasters. So there were four radio stations in the
Netherlands, and one, I think there were 2am repeaters of what
was already on the FM station. So the popular music station at
the time Hilversum three, it would start at 7am it literally
the signal would not be off. The signal beyond would go like,
Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom Hill for some three Doom, Doom, Doom,
they would just repeat until seven, and then at 1130 would go
off the air. Now it's 24/7 and the pirate radio ships were in
the North Sea playing the music that the kids wanted to hear. So
we were listening to long wave. Not am long wave. You know,
that's basically, yeah, there you go, perfect timing, and
you'll see it. And you'd have to retune, you have to kind of turn
your body sometimes to get the signal, but at least we could
hear the music we wanted. And people will do all kinds of
things to get the content they want. Now, the thing that is
this elusive discovery mechanism, which I don't believe
in, in podcasting, because there's inherently no
algorithms, maybe Spotify recommends some stuff or
whatever. That's a different story. That's what platforms are
good at, is figuring out what you want and recommending
something to you. But in general, I found that people
don't discover no agenda or any of our other podcasts. It's
someone else saying, Hey, have you heard this podcast? No, can
I get on Spotify? No, it's only on x, y or z. People will do
that. They will do that to get something that some their buddy
has told them, or that they've been listening to previously,
and they can't they'll do whatever. They'll do whatever
they want to get that content. There should be no fear about
that at all.
Dave Jones: Yeah, especially when it doesn't cost money,
right? It's like, if some, if you say, Hey, you should go
check out this show, and it's gonna, I see that it's gonna
cost me some, some, some money. I may pause, but if it's free,
and it's just doing a couple of things to jump downloading an
app or something like that, I don't, I don't know that that's
the he. It's just not that big of a barrier. It doesn't seem
just too bad.
Adam Curry: It's too bad. But, okay, whatever. Well,
Dave Jones: the directory stuff like, there is no, there's no
directory of blogs, no, you know, but somehow that there
was,
Adam Curry: it was called Google Reader, and it got ruined. It
got taken down because, oh, we can't make money on it,
Dave Jones: but somehow RSS feed readers are, you know, still
kicking, going strong. Got a lot, got lots of loyal users. We
podcasting. Podcasting has this idea of having directories. You
know, obviously we have one. But the to me, the idea of having a
podcast, maybe this is where the rubber meets the road. For me,
the idea of having a podcast directory, but then it make
making me have to sign up and agree to a EULA in order to put
stuff in it. That's not a podcast direct. I mean, that's
that's not,
Adam Curry: it's not. We now know that we know what Spotify
does, and now we know that Apple does the same, the exact same
thing. They are ingesting your content just like YouTube does
through the RSS feed, and then they're doing whatever they
want, right? They have interrupted that, that holy
connection between the podcaster and the listener, this
Dave Jones: is why we did this is why we've done so many of the
things that we've done with the index, making the feed, making
the database downloadable, you know, weekly, making it where
it's instant ingestion. Because the the idea is, you want it to
everything to be decentralized. You want there to be zero
barriers to being found, zero, you know, because it's like, if
you if a, if an RSS feed is, excuse me, if a podcast feed is
out, is out there, and it wants to be in the index, it's, boom,
done. I mean, you don't just sign anything, you know. I mean,
we're gonna find you. We're gonna stick it in there. Whether
you know, without your, you know, without your input anyway,
and if you want it out, you can. But that's to me, that's a
directory. Yes, that's an actual like discovery mechanism. If
there's a
Adam Curry: there's your discovery, right there's your
discovery. That's your discovery, right there.
Dave Jones: So I'm just griping now. No,
Adam Curry: no, no, it's so this is actually good news, because
this we can move into another topic here. I am delighted,
absolutely delighted with the AI slop. Now I have a prayer. I'm
going to be honest with you. My prayer is I would like all the
social networks to be filled with AI slops that become
unattractive and unusable. That is my and I'm not kidding. This
is an actual prayer I do because I think it's so, so horrible.
What's happening with social media? There's
Dave Jones: probably a Catholic saint for that.
Adam Curry: We got to find him, and now we're seeing that the
free hosting company, because there's really only one free
hosting company, which is Spotify for podcasters, they are
going to be filling up Spotify with so much AI slop. We don't
even automatically ingest Spotify for podcasters anymore.
Do we?
Dave Jones: No now has to be submitted. No, exactly, it
Adam Curry: has to be submitted. And so the. The irony of almost
every everyone talk, oh, AI and podcasting, oh yeah, it's great,
and I'm a show notes and everything that, what, what
they're doing, AI podcast. Oh, we have to have tags for that.
Oh no, we can't have that. Like, this is the best thing that
could have ever happened, because this is not really
getting submitted to the index. This is all all this nonsense is
going to fill up Spotify with crap. And I could not be more
happy about it. Going to be running after themselves.
Daniel J. Lewis: Spotify wasn't already full of crap. Okay,
Unknown: okay. Ding
Dave Jones: is AI. Chad F says AI is slowly ruining value for
value music, is it? Well,
Adam Curry: that's really true, but I think that's really
subjective. If, if you listen to a song and you like it, and for
instance, I'll give you an example why I'm I'm not going to
agree with that statement. Mo who is a who is, actually is a
music producer. That's, that's what he was doing before I met
him from mofax, he has been actually making some really good
music with his own lyrics, and he's come up with these crazy,
super prompts. And he sent me a couple of songs, and I had no
idea it was AI. The vocals didn't sound your typical, you
know, AI type vibe. I was like, I'm okay with that, if, if I
want to, you know, I we all, hey, I listen. I danced and
listened to disco. Yeah, come on. It was basically a that's
basically it. That was the beginning of AI music. I mean,
we went through this with, oh, it's not real drums. That's a
drum machine. That's no good. It's ruining the music business.
Well, arguably, no, no. So I don't think it's ruining value
for value music at all. If it's a good song, it's a good song,
it doesn't matter. You know, if I hit some washboards and
buckets, or if I had ai do something, if I like it, then I
like it. And if people don't like it, then I shouldn't be
playing it. If they go, that's nasty. I can hear it's aI I
don't like it. How is that ruining everything? If people, I
think there will be AI, music, podcasts, I see no reason why
there wouldn't be.
Daniel J. Lewis: Let's dive into that.
Adam Curry: That was funny, Daniel. Let's unpack this. Yes,
exactly. Let's dive into, let's do a deep dive on that. Yes,
exactly. And, I mean, I like all of these notebook LM podcasts
because they become so recognizable and they're, I
mean, some of them are actually it's hilarious. I mean, I can, I
can listen to. It's limited, because now everyone's sending
me, hey, look what I did. I put raccoon butt in there. Eight
minutes on raccoon, but it's funny for 30 seconds, and then
it's not funny anymore. But as these voices will become
changeable, I listened to, I listened to an AI podcast. I
listened to, we talked about that on the last show. What is
it called
Dave Jones: the news and tech news or something. Hold
Adam Curry: on a second. Let me. Let me open my secret project.
No, my secret project. So will tell me exactly what that is.
It's um, here. Now, where is it? Uh, oh, boy. Uh, that's
interesting. I don't see it now. The projects broke. Dave, no,
did
Dave Jones: it break? No, it wouldn't surprise me.
Adam Curry: No, it's working. It's working, but I just don't
see it in here, the automated daily, okay? And, and so here's
someone who takes news stories and inputs these new stories,
and it's not these two offensive deep dive people. It's a pretty
unoffensive, non offensive voice, and it's just giving me a
summary of these news stories and and I kind of like it.
There's zero personality. Is just, it's just reading it to
me, which is what I suggested months ago. I said, How come my
app can't i can't subscribe to a blog, and the app just reads me
that blog. That'd be fine. So I don't have a problem. I don't
see, you know, also this whole tagging AI content. I mean, come
on, what's next? Tag Photoshop jobs. I don't see it as a huge
issue. Personally, I like the fact that it's filling up
Spotify with crappy podcast, because after the novelty wears
off, they're crappy. It's not it's the content.
Daniel J. Lewis: What it does help is makes the authentic
podcast really stand out. Like I went on a rant about this in one
of my episodes recently, I like being in the kitchen and cooking
and stuff. And whenever I go onto YouTube to try and find the
best whatever potato peeler, I find all of these videos that
are just AI. Generated crap where they just looked at what
has the top ratings on Amazon. Let's promote it with affiliate
links. Let's do this generic voiceover that tells you really
nothing. So there's so much of that out there that when I see a
video of someone actually using the product, their opinion, to
me, skyrockets, because they are a real person, actually using
it, not just talking about it because it's popular, but
they're sharing their opinion and experience. And let's so
much more.
Adam Curry: Let's be honest, the algo didn't recommend those to
you. Had to do some work to find it. Am I correct? Yes, yeah.
Usually like second page, and this is I went through this
with, with Didi Stein. You know, the whole P Diddy thing. So I'm,
I'm looking for information on Diddy, and, whoa, there must be
1000 AI generated YouTube channels about Diddy. And
because you're watching it, and you hear the voice like, okay,
you know, it's like, I know this is not really a person speaking,
but I can handle that. And then the images just, you know, they
rotate, like, I've just saw that. It's all B roll. And after
about 45 minutes, like, okay, no one has anything. This is all
crap. It's all from headlines, until I finally found one, one
person who I thought was, you know, had had some good
information. I could follow them, but the AI stuff, it
actually, it's a big turnoff. It's a big turnoff. It's, it's,
it's slop. It is slop. All of it, I just like saying slop.
Dave Jones: You've got me so completely distracted debugging
the secret project. It's working.
Adam Curry: It's working. Okay, I just don't. Don't worry. I did
find
Dave Jones: a bug, though. I did find
Adam Curry: a bug. Don't debug on the show man,
Dave Jones: air funding, URL does not have a default value.
That's okay.
Adam Curry: Okay, that's why I didn't show up. Okay, yeah,
Dave Jones: I got I got you, I got you live debugging.
Adam Curry: So do we need to talk about AI podcast anymore?
Have we handled this? Have we all given our please? No, okay,
please, no. Pod ID. Pod ID needs to be discussed.
Dave Jones: Yes. Have you seen this? Daniel, seen pod ID?
Daniel J. Lewis: Talking with Russell, a little bit about it.
Can you explain it for me, as well as anyone else who's
unfamiliar?
Dave Jones: I think I can. Yes, it's so well. I mean, it's it's
multifaceted. So, oh, I just saw Russell harrows picture. I have
not seen that before. I
Adam Curry: saw a picture. I saw a picture of his bloody ear. Oh,
yeah. He posted on the he had, he had some kind of, is like a
brain operation, and he had to go to the ER, he posted all this
on the on podcasting Next, on social, and they said I thought
he
Dave Jones: may have done a speech in Pennsylvania. Look,
they
Adam Curry: actually look worse than Trump's ear. And he did the
right thing. He says, you know, don't click on this unless you
can handle blood. I'm like, oh, man,
Dave Jones: of course, he's baiting you at that point. How
could
Adam Curry: I not? It's like, this has got to be some
cheesecake. Cheesecake.
Dave Jones: Okay? So pod, pod id.org. Is pod id.org. Is, well,
let me, I'm trying to figure out where to start. Okay, the person
tag. Let's start with the person tag. The person tag is a very
simple tag, sort of it has you can define a name, an h ref,
which is a web link to the to some place on the web that is
associated with this person, maybe their home page, or their
business, or whatever this So there's an A, there's a href,
the person's name, and an image, a link to an image of the
person, like a bug, an avatar. And then you can define a role
that they're going to be on the show, like a guest host, the
audio engineer, whatever. So that's the person tag, and then
you have, so then pod ID is something that that Russell
created as sort of a layer over the top of the person tag, and
that is, I'm thinking of it like Gravatar for podcasting that
that may not be fair, but that's, That's kind of the way I
think about this, I think, and this is what I think he's doing.
I think he is crawling all of the podcasts. I don't know how
he determines which ones to crawl and which ones not to or
if he's crawling all 4 million. I don't know what he's how many
he's doing. You. But he's caught crawling through tons of
podcasts to find person tags, and then he's sort of bringing
those in and making them searchable through pod id.org
but then, but what you have to do is you have to sign up, sort
of like Gravatar. You have to sign up and then put in your,
you know, like your email address and and your link to
your website and some stuff, some identifying information.
And then, then pod ID will associate you with these
different person tags that have appeared across the corpus of
feeds. So then, when people are using the pod id.org API, they
can find all easily find all of your appearances based on a hash
of the href or a hash of your email address.
Daniel J. Lewis: It seems interesting, and still, though,
I wonder, do we need a third party service to do that?
Because, like, you think of Gravatar, not everything
supports Gravatar. Some places, you have to upload your image
manually. Some of them, you it's frustrating that you can't
upload your image, and the only way you can change your image is
by going to gravatar and creating an account. I think
though hot ID, at least from my understanding what you've said
and what Russell has said is, seems like it's an optional
third party service, kind of like episodes.fm that someone
could use if they want to, and if they don't want to, then they
don't need to go over there and sign up. Here's
Adam Curry: my question. I would like to see some numbers on the
use case of how important it is for people to be able to find
all the other podcasts this person appeared on. I have a
feeling that is a very, very low number. This, to me, sounds like
it was created by people who like this functionality and need
it for research purposes. I'm not sure it's a it's a user use
case. One
Daniel J. Lewis: The tough thing with it is it really its
effectiveness really depends on people actually populating the
person tag. Well, that's for sure. Like, if I wanted to,
since I've been a guest on a lot of podcasts in the past, if I
wanted to create a quick archive of here all of the episodes I've
ever been on, I can't do that by searching the person tag,
because not all of those podcasts have searched the
person tag or used it.
Dave Jones: Okay, now I've got this is interesting. So when I
first signed up for pod ID this morning. I didn't see initially.
There was nothing there, and he said they crawl every five
hours. And so now I've gone back and it says you have maybe a, c
says you may be featured on these episodes. And so I've got
1234, I've got four maybes and one definite. And it says we
matched you on these podcast and episodes. And it says podcasting
2.0 so that one's automatic. It found me immediately there. And
then there's other there's these other four, and they're all
things that I've they're all feeds that I've done. Yeah, I
don't know that I even put the person tag in those. Here's what
Adam Curry: I here's Okay. So first of all, a centralized
resource is just not a good idea, period. One of our biggest
fears, if Dave and I talk about stuff even jokingly, it's like,
dude, how do we make sure this thing, this index, continues,
because we're gonna die. We're going to die. I hate to tell you
all we're gonna die now. We'll be partying in heaven. This is
the good news, but we're gonna die. A plan for that, plan for
that so, but so with this plans, you know, we have the with,
there's a lot of different plans, but in in general, Dave
goes, a lot of problems happen, a lot of problems with a lot of
projects and a lot of apps. That's the index. So now, if we
bootstrap all kinds of other centralized things on top of it,
there's your main problem. What I find interesting, and this is
what kind of piqued my interest. And so let me step back. It's a
display purposes thing. I will put in whatever Daniel J Lewis
wants me to put in. I usually just select a picture and put
that into the person tag, and I know that apps that support this
will show the picture that I chose, which is, I love having
that control, because I can choose the worst picture or the
best picture. Oh, it's all up to me, I, after all, control my
feed and whatever link, and it may be something that Daniel
wants to promote today and which may be different from yesterday,
and he may not want to have to update some centralized thing
that changes everything. So I like the fact that there's a lot
of flexibility, and it's for that episode. Code in the feed
that I'm producing that I want to have look a certain way in
the apps. I want that information to be passed
through. What I find compelling about what Russell has done is I
wouldn't mind having a resource that I can go to and say, what
other podcasts has this person appeared on and because he's
already claimed to be scraping, you know, transcripts and doing
all kinds of stuff, that could be a valuable research tool.
Daniel J. Lewis: And that thing does already exist, like with
podchaser.
Adam Curry: Yeah, well, I've never used podchaser, so So I
wouldn't know. Well, there you go. There's kind of your answer.
So is it really something that's necessary to have this
centralized resource and the pain? Because it's painful, it's
look how much effort it took. Okay, we had some early
adopters, but it's been very painful to get the adoption of
the index to be seen as, as a as a valid thing. You know where,
where you can go, and you can get numbers that you that are be
valuable if you're looking for you know what happened the last
30 days, 60 days, 90 days, can I? Can I find this podcast for
sure? You know all of these things. It's taken years now to
do that for individuals and have all the individual content
producers, I don't know. I mean, I don't know there was pod ping
made things a lot easier for us and having big hosting companies
jump in. But you know, you literally have to have everybody
retool for this. I It seems like a really heavy lift.
Dave Jones: Okay, so here, I like Go ahead, Daniel,
Daniel J. Lewis: this big problem that we're facing is
basically this war between centralized and decentralized,
and that happens every day in podcasting, because podcast
consumption and distribution are decentralized, but discovery is
basically centralized, because discovery typically happens in a
way inside the apps, and so it is centralized to whatever
catalog that app is using. That's the centralization that
I'm talking about here. So this idea of pod ID or pod chaser or
IMDb or anything like that, those are just other centralized
sources of information that maybe does need to be
centralized, but then we're trying to make it fit in with a
decentralized system.
Dave Jones: I'm sorry. Russell has put in some more information
since I last looked at podcast index dot social about this, and
he's so I've got a little bit more background here. He he's
saying that they use pod ping, they watch pod ping, and then
they just parse feeds that come through with POD ping, and
that's how they look for new person tax. That's cool. That's
a great use of pod ping. A like that is great. And again, it's
so efficient. You're not not having to go back and, you know,
just like scrape, scrape the whole universe every all the
time. Perfect. Perfect. And
Adam Curry: maybe, and maybe, when a pod ping comes through
with a different link, or to image, or a different link to an
h ref in the pod thing. Add it to the record. Don't replace,
but add.
Dave Jones: I think what Russell's doing is creating. I
think this is mine. This is my gut. Is what he is creating is a
way, is a tool for the host, for hosting companies to use to find
to help their customers, find people to put into person tags
so that I can say, Okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna have a guest
on my show, and I'm in the dashboard of a hosting company,
and I'm like, okay, this person is, you know, I'm gonna have
Daniel J Lewis on here. So I'm typing Daniel J and then it's
gonna search pod, pod id.org, in the background, and find some
some hits. They're like, Oh yeah, that's, that's him. So I
hit it. And then it pulls in and just base, because it already
has seen your person tag on other places. It's gonna give
you options to just go ahead and pop that right into your new to
your new episode tonight, like that. That's cool. Yeah,
Daniel J. Lewis: that's providing a service, an agency
level service, to these providers, so that the providers
can make an easier experience for the podcasters. I'm all for
that doesn't listen
Adam Curry: notes, provide that API as well.
Dave Jones: Listen notes, the for the Listen notes,
Adam Curry: pod chaser, pod chaser, yeah, yes.
Daniel J. Lewis: Or provide listen notes might actually as
well I don't write, remember, right? So these services
Adam Curry: do exist. So this
Dave Jones: is cool. This is like, this would be a service
like, this is a great. Tool, because this is a service like
pod chaser, but it is, but it is based on the dis, decentralized,
non owned data of, I mean, the way pod chaser works is they
had, they just have people like, hoofing it, like just doing,
like, manually inputting stuff, I don't know. Yeah, they had a
farm of people. They
Adam Curry: should look at pod ping. What are they thinking?
Well, what Russell
Dave Jones: essentially created was a, was a, a a clone of pod
chaser, but that is based on actual feed, structured feed
data that nobody owns, which is beautiful. And then, you know,
and it's, it's a centralized service, yes, but it's a
centralized service made to to facilitate ease the easy use of
this data by other centralized services, which are the hosting
companies. I mean, hosting companies are centralized as
well. I mean, they're an aggregate of tons of feeds and
that they control. So, I mean, as long I think it's cool, man.
I mean, I don't know that we Ness. I don't know that we have
to change the person tag. I
Adam Curry: don't think he's suggesting that. Is he? He
started off
Dave Jones: suggesting it, but I'm not sure where we are on
that yet. Oh, because I thought it was clear, go ahead. I don't
mind putting in some sort of hash, like a hash of something.
But at the same time, I think I feel like there's already enough
data in the person tag where you could just detachable already,
like, so, okay, let, let's everybody wants a hash, you
know, because they want a universal ID, a unique ID for
each for each person tag. But you could do it this way. You
could, you can recreate this this way. Daniel J Lewis has two
sort of identities that he wants to use. One is as maybe a, you
know, a podcast consultant, and another one is, in his personal
capacity, his consultant identity is has a specific href
and a specific by a pig avatar and the name Daniel J Lewis. His
personal capacity has a different href, a different
picture URL, and also the exact same name, Daniel J Lewis,
though, if you just hash the entire tag, minus the minus the
the role, if you just hash those three things, the name, the
picture, URL and the href, you get a unique you get two
different values. One is going to be his personal, and one's
going to be his professional. And you could very much pump
that in, you know, into a centralized service like pod
id.org, and then, and then, when somebody tries to find Daniel J
Lewis, they'll see both of those identities, and they'll just
choose the one that's appropriate. Like, I don't, I
don't know that we necessarily need to add another attribute to
the person tag. Is what I'm saying? No, I'm with you. Do you
agree, Daniel, or is that? Am I crazy?
Daniel J. Lewis: I could maybe see something like a directory
listing, because there is the idea of, well, should the person
Tag link to this person's website, or link to something
that does point out other places where they've been. But then
again, that's what the person tag is supposed to do, because
the podcast app should see that and then be able to link to
other places. So even like right now, do we have the ecosystem
where the podcast app, if I'm in podcast guru and I see Dave
Jones in the app on an episode I'm listening to, and I tap on
your name, is that going to take me to a whole list of other
podcasts you've been on? The apps would probably have to
process all of that themselves, unless they use a third party
service. So I kind of see what he's doing as maybe a service
for the developers. And maybe there is the possibility of
blinking something inside of the feed in the person tag, because
how otherwise would I can take podcast guru. How would podcast
guru know how to discover all of those other episodes if you're
linking to podcast index.org and your person tag, but you could
then add this pod ID or something else as an additional
attribute that is, in a way, it's like the publisher feed,
but for the person, in a sense, and that then makes it so much
easier for the app developers to instantly populate that list of
everywhere else this person has been.
Dave Jones: I think, I think what, as I'm listening to you
talk, I feel like, what. So there's still room here. So you
have, you have Russell's service, which is meeting this,
this, this need. He's, you know, again, he's a hosting company.
So he's, this is a service that he would, you know, that he
wants, and that fits that use case. This guy's obviously got
other use cases too, but I think that's a great fit for that type
of thing. But then I feel like there's also this other
possibility, still, there's still a need for just a flat
out, just a flat list that exists somewhere that's doing
the thing that I mentioned a while ago, and sort of the thing
that you're talking about, Daniel, where you have just,
just a flat JSON list, yay, JSON of of name, you know, name and
attribute and hash, and then when this, when you know when an
app or some service wants to just look up when they see
something, they can just match hashes. Like, I don't know that
the hash just has to be in the tag. You know, that's the thing.
Daniel J. Lewis: The hash could change too. You get one
character off on a URL, like just a trailing slash, yes or
no, and the hash will be different. Well, that's
Dave Jones: what happened. That's what Okay, so initially,
Russell posted back and said, That's why I initially was not
seeing any any hits, is because the the URL in the href that
I've always used has been an HTTP link, and he his service
required HTTPS.
Adam Curry: You're subjected to a man in the middle attack on
your information. Dave, you're not interrupting everywhere. Oh,
bad to bad.
Dave Jones: I know, horrible. And so that. So it didn't, they
didn't match up. So he, he changed the system a while, just
a few minutes ago, to be to just treat everything as HTTPS So,
yeah, so that then, so that fixed the issue and but I don't,
I think, I think there's a lot this. I like this service a lot.
I think it's a I think it's cool having to go through here and it
says, maybe you've been on these episodes, I've got some
potential matches. And so for each one, I can choose, do I
want to sort of tag myself as this is a an appropriate hit to
be returned into pod id.org, API, and I think that's a great
way to do it, because that gives me some control. I don't have
to, because since, because these are hits, what, what this has
done, I think, is matched up my email address with what was in
the feed, and that he's not including those by default,
which I think is, again, the right choice. I can choose
whether to associate myself with that or not. The person tag
match was, was an instant hit, and it went right into the API.
I don't know. I like it. I like it a lot.
Adam Curry: Dave, we have you for another 15 is that the same
same time frame we're on today? Yeah, okay, then we shall move
on to one last quick topic. Okay, no song today. We got no
time for music, no
Dave Jones: song, yeah, play a song, play a song, but then we
will, okay,
Adam Curry: all right. Well, I pulled the song particularly.
Jay Lewis, you can what.
Dave Jones: I condone it. I condone this. You condone
Adam Curry: this. Okay, Daniel, I chose this one for you and for
me because I love it. Hambleton, you're killing me on 2.0 sunrise
Unknown: coming. I'm guilty again. Rooster crowing. It's not
the first time I see you. Kiss my neck, pick me up again. Oh,
pick me up again. It feels like I am The
slow dead Lord is.
Oh, Jesus, your King.
I thought you were a ghost just in there. Didn't care, always
mad, looking for the bad in me. I compared you to my dad. To be
honest, I've been wondering if you could really love me.
Wondering if you could really
love me. You said you really love me, and it feels like
heaven. It feels like,
dying.
We with kindness,
don't she only I can't
believe it. With your
Adam Curry: me. Hambleton, you're killing me, and the
boardroom chatter definitely weighs out the message of that
song, we're all going to hell.
Dave Jones: The boardroom is basically a bunch of 15 year
Adam Curry: old boys. I'm up front. I'm up front. Man, it's a
value for value song, so if you didn't boost while you were
listening to it, you can always go back and you just even pause
it, and you can boost. And all of that works in the modern
podcast apps. Since, well, we're running out of time, we need to
thank some people for this value for value operation that we're
running here. I'll read a couple of the boosts that came in. In
fact, one just came in from booberry. Whoa, 30,003 SATs,
which is a nice Palindrome, and he has a link here to the split
kit with some video. Oh, all right, I gotta check this out
first. Are
Dave Jones: you gonna click that?
Adam Curry: Yeah, I'm gonna click that. Let me see. Whoa,
oh, my God, this is some kind of massive, massive boost board
thing on split kit. Not even sure what. This is. Huge shout
out to Stephen B for these live split kit watch pages. He says
it reminds me of being back on MySpace, almost. And I love it.
He's also implemented using chapter artwork instead of
video. Very deeply legal. Okay, well, I gotta look at all this,
man. This is, this is, I'll put it in the show notes so people
can take a look at that. And I have no idea what I'm looking at
right now, but you know that it's good stuff, because these
guys are crazy. 2222 from cole McCormick, speaking of
centralized versus decentralized, I had a meeting
with Zach from indie hub. Ah, yes. His vision is to be the
center of the new model for fundraising and distributing
movies and TV, while using decentralized tools and tags to
enable that. Yes, I like Zach a lot. I think he's got he's on a
good path there. I put my short film, the break in on there, and
people can use the site to watch it, support it. And I enabled
the odd the option to distribute with RSS. Ah, he's doing hosting
too. The cinema side of podcasting seems to need a
centralized thing to show people what's possible. Well, sometimes
you do need that. That's cool. I'll take a look at that salty
crayon 1111, Adam and Dave. I look at the AI as parody. If it
makes me laugh, I play it. But the voice that sounds like JCD
using a. Intro, boots on the ground and subs in the water and
the bunker, voice for music, and then it gets put into the AI
sludge bucket. Okay, let us know. Triple seven. Boost from
Chad F Thank you, Chad. 1776 freedom. Boost from salty crayon
hero boardroom, a little V for V. Housekeeping. Fountain looks
like the value time splits is on the fritz again, with not time
stamping the music and artists and fountain artists. If it's
not in the index, don't promote the legacy apps you if you want
to earn crackers, stay on Spotify and wave Lake. He says,
we can get an organized list that says music, podcasts and
podcasts separate from each other. Hold on a second. Can we
get an organized list that says music podcasts and podcasts
separate from each other, from the last boardroom. Yes, more V
for V wallets. Jesus take the wheel. This is off the rails in
the pipe. Go podcasting. Yeah, whoa, he
Dave Jones: fell on the board there. Well, Ellen beats.
Adam Curry: Ellen beats has a pretty good list, from what I've
seen in beats, yeah, another 333, from Chad F and Dr Scott
boosted the bat signal, and that's what we've got. Dave, I
hit the D limiter.
Dave Jones: We got, we've got pod verse, donated $50 that's
Mitch and Creon. Very
Adam Curry: nice. Thank you. Brothers, excellent. Still
Dave Jones: waiting on podcast. Pod verse, Ng, yes. Next Gen,
yes. Hard at work there. We got some boost. We got pod home.
That's Barry, 30,000 SAS do podcast guru. He says, I
appreciate you guys. No,
Adam Curry: thank you, Barry. We appreciate you guys. You you you
guys, you guys. Use guy. He's only one guy over there. Pod
home, use guy, yes.
Dave Jones: Anonymous to cast O Matic, that's rare. Customatic
doesn't usually when I see anonymous through
Adam Curry: custom maybe, just, maybe just named himself
anonymous.
Dave Jones: That's true. Maybe that's might be his first name.
Boosting on Episode 196, redneck Air Force. He says, just for the
music. 51 sets, nice. We got you we got you covered. Oh, comic
strip. Blogger, that was a very short,
Adam Curry: very short list, people, what's going on? You
think Bitcoin is down? Oh, it is.
Dave Jones: It's always down. Do you know the fifth my buddy Tim
was telling me about the 58k crowd?
Adam Curry: Yeah, I've heard this. Yeah, bitcoins going to 50
and will never go above 58 and it's stuck at 58 is that? What
Dave Jones: that is? Yeah, if it ever goes below, it'll come back
up. If it ever goes above, it'll come back down to 58 and it'll
just like pegged there forever.
Adam Curry: I watched the I watched the HBO special last
night. That was that promised to uncover, for me the true
identity of Satoshi Nakamoto. I've heard that thing is
terrible. Well, I actually watched it because I heard the
breakdown of it on This Week in Bitcoin with Chris. And that is
funny enough. It made me want to watch and it has some good
history of Bitcoin. It does have, yeah. I mean, the whole
search for Satoshi is like, whatever, okay, and of
Dave Jones: course, we don't find out who's No,
Adam Curry: of course, not, not spoiler alert, not conclusively,
but the but in general, it's a pretty good doc about Bitcoin. I
enjoyed it.
Dave Jones: Maybe I'll give it a what the but we do, we do have
comic strip blogger, yeah, 26,000 sets. He's always there.
He says there's during the when the apocalypse happens. Yes,
there's going to be three things when the nuclear winter and
Apocalypse happens of world war three. There will be three
things left, Velveeta cheese, yes, cock, cockroaches
Adam Curry: and comics blogger, I actually plugged him on the in
my interview, I don't know if they'll use it, but I know, did
you Yeah, yeah. I said, you know, I was talking about early
podcasting, and we had all these cool characters show up, like
Roger smalls, who people may not remember, but Hello, Adam. It's
Roger smalls and, and comic strip blogger and, and he's
still with us. We love you. Comic Strip blogger,
Dave Jones: howdy, Adam and Dave, I'd like to invite y'all
to a podcast called unrelenting. Available at www dot
unrelenting. Dot show. It airs live on no agenda stream
immediately before your live broadcast. It's hosted by Irish
mafia member and a Jew grok AI says about it. Why unrelenting
real talk, honest debates with a touch of humor, hot topics, from
Tech Trends to political rants, nothing's off limits. Engaging
banter. Gene and Darren chemistry make every episode
must listen, yo. CSB,
Adam Curry: well, that's a promo, if I've ever heard one.
Yeah, it is comic blogger. He is here to promote your podcast. He
is the podcast discovery mechanism.
Dave Jones: Just Oh, I missed one. I missed one. Hold on. That
was a foul sir. Brian of London, 11, 948, OH, Cosmetic Yes. He
says, I'm back. I had to find time to shift my Alby to Alby
hub on the old umbra. Well, because I really didn't want my
point eight, five BTC node to be linked to every podcast app. I'm
not sure I like this new setup, but I'll try to finish my a lb
API for a high I
Adam Curry: got to I'm digging the lb hub now that I understand
it. And I understand it because I could just click install it.
Oh, it's there. Oh, I see what I'm supposed to do. Okay, yeah,
yeah, it's a it's basically turns your, your my own node
into, you know, gives me an app store for it so I can connect
all these apps to it. Got
Dave Jones: so much backlog of stuff to do that, including the,
you know, the Zebedee and the light spark and all. I've got a
humongous backlog of stuff like that that I well, I will get to
as soon as we ship this thing to testers.
Adam Curry: Yeah, why don't we just take next week off to
Dave Jones: sure that'll work? Okay? But I own a programming
note though, I will be gone next I will will not be a show next
week. Ah, good. Where
Adam Curry: are you going?
Dave Jones: Going to going hiking? Me and Melissa,
Adam Curry: oh, you're going to do the Appalachian Trail. Have
you chosen for some No, it's,
Dave Jones: it's damn we were going to do the Appalachian
Trail, but it's damaged because of all the flood. Yes. So we're
actually going to go. We're, this is our this year was our
25th wedding anniversary.
Adam Curry: What is the actual date of your what is the actual
date of your anniversary?
Dave Jones: It was August the 14th. Wow.
Adam Curry: You forgot to tell me. I would have called it out
on no agenda. Oh, sorry. 25 years and they never had a
fight, not even one Tina's hiking at the Smoky Mountains
right now with the blonde squad.
Dave Jones: Oh, nice. Yeah. She sent me a picture eight hiking
up there.
Adam Curry: They were all looking at the at the Aurora
Borealis. Last night. It was beautiful there.
Dave Jones: The aurora borealis has been as far it's been down
here in Alabama, yeah, we had it last magnetic storm is no joke.
Adam Curry: No, we love that more storms.
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, I've been alive for 48 years, and I
don't ever remember an aurora borealis in Alabama until this
year. We've had like, three occurrences. Oh,
Adam Curry: you've never been through a World War either, but
it's coming. Hey, we want to thank our guest. Daniel J Lewis
the Jason, oh, wait
Dave Jones: a monthlies. Sorry. Monthly is Jesse Hunter $10
Lauren ball, $24.20 bezel Phillip $25 Mitch Downey $10
Christopher Harbaugh $10 and Terry Keller $5
Adam Curry: All right, thank you all for supporting us with your
value for value. This is how it works. We put everything out
there, the whole podcast index, all of it, all the work, all the
energy, the effort, the sweat, the blood, the tears, all of
it's in there. And as long as we get value back that is worth it
to us, we keep going with the project. That's how simple. It
includes the board meeting, of course, and so far so good. We
don't take any of that money. But that's not the value we're
looking for we're looking for people doing stuff. It's time,
talent and treasure. Daniel J Lewis, you're part of that, man,
Daniel J. Lewis: thank you. I've been a fan of this ever since
the beginning. You might remember that I heard you
mention it on no agenda, and I immediately emailed you, and I
was like, whatever you're doing, I want to be part of
Adam Curry: it. And did I email you back, or did I show on you?
Oh, I did. You
Daniel J. Lewis: emailed me back. Wow, it wasn't like the
first time that we met.
Adam Curry: It might have been for me, like, Who's this guy?
Daniel J. Lewis: Do you want to hear that story briefly? Sure.
So it's a two part story here, very brief. You know Jen Briney,
host of congressional dish, I do years ago, back when I was
married, I was at what was the night of the Podcast Awards, the
first time I won a podcast award, and at the party after
the award, Jen Briney came up to me, and she was just gushing
with fangirlism because she said, You taught me everything I
know about podcasting. I wouldn't be podcasting if it
wasn't for you, like just showering all of this praise on
me to the point that I started to feel a little awkward and
like I tried to hold up my left hand, showing you know I am
married, and I could tell she was married. I kind of tried to
gesture my wife to be over closer to me, and it was just
like this. Now, of course, she didn't mean any of that. She was
just such a fan girl. Well, so fast forward. Then, I think, two
years later, New Media Expo, the last New Media Expo, the one
that had the podcast award, horrible disaster there, and
Adam was there, and Adam, I got to meet you afterward, and I was
having my own, like, fangirling moment, because that was the
first time I'd met you in person. And, like, I just Oh, so
much did Adam show
Dave Jones: you his ring to show you
Adam Curry: I'm married? Daniel, J stay away.
Dave Jones: Well,
Daniel J. Lewis: so what happened is I just was so
excited to meet Adam, and I wanted to tell him how. Much I
appreciated him and what he's done in podcasting. And then he
says, Hey, is that Jen Briney, that's funny.
Adam Curry: Well, I'm a big fan dang of Jay Lewis, I do. I
listen to your podcast. I listen to your I always tune in to find
out what the future of podcasting is going to be and I
learn a lot. Thank you, brother. We appreciate you being on.
Don't be no stranger now.
Daniel J. Lewis: Hey, anytime, every time, okay, brother, Dave,
thank
Adam Curry: you so much, man, and I'm glad you're you're not
going to be here on Friday. You deserve it. You and you and the
wife deserve it. Are you
Dave Jones: going to do something? Are you going to do a
bushcray ball or something. We're just gonna call it, but
Adam Curry: I just might call it. There's a lot going on, but
you never know. You never know. I might get, I might get a bug
at my butt. You never know.
Dave Jones: Since makes the heart grow fonder,
Adam Curry: this is true. Have a great weekend, everybody. Thank
you very much for being here in the boardroom. We appreciate all
that you do your time, your talent, your treasure. We'll see
you in two weeks right here on podcasting 2.0
You have been listening to podcasting. To point oh, visit
podcast index.org for more information. Go podcasting.
Don't debug on the show, man, you.