podcasting 2.0 for January 15 2021, Episode 20 we are
mapping the road.
My love Fridays
best day of the week. Not because I got a whole weekend
off never do but that means we get to do another board meeting
a podcasting to foreknows podcast index.org I am Adam
Curry in Austin, Texas. And somewhere there in Alabama the
man who can make an endpoint that changes humanity before
breakfast, ladies and gentlemen, Dave Jones cracked the gavel for
the board meeting. That's right.
We're I like that I like this because I'm I'm in the future
now too. Because you you have always been, you know, you've
always been from the future. Wow. Like, grabbed me, you know?
How like, was it like superheroes where it's like they
can teleport? And sometimes they'll grab somebody
teleport to thinking more like doc and Marty but yeah, okay.
Okay. Like you've given me future powers to now feel like
I'm from the future.
You are You are from the future. And we were in this future. I
think several months ago, maybe even when we started this, this
project this adventure.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like, Man, what is it like? We could not have
had better timing
headline, maybe should tell everybody what, what we
prognosticated first, it's not so easy to to get people to
change from using Spotify as a music app to a podcast app. And
I think they're under estimating the power of the individually
distributed podcast experiences and they think they can capture
that and here is CNBC is where I got it from. Headlines Spotify
is big bet on podcast is failing city says. And I'll just do the
key points your Spotify is multi million dollar bet. And
podcasting may not be working out city analysts wrote in a
note to clients on Friday. Let's go down to that the article is a
little skewed the way that kind of headlining this because
here's the actual quote, the cadence of premium gross
additions, cue third 20. An app download data through q4 of
2020. Do not show any material benefit from recent podcast
investments that began in 2019. The analysts wrote and the firm
downgraded the stock to sell from neutral. Now the way they
position that in this article is
I see they had like a weird. Yeah, Spotify is multimillion
dollar bet on podcasting may not be working out. Yeah, that's
exactly the what they said because the analysts didn't
write that headline. But But what they're seeing is no, and
this is really critical. This is how all these Silicon Valley
companies are are measured. You have your monthly users.
That is a debt den. And daily active user. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly. So dee da us dm us or whatever. Yeah.
Yeah. And then use if, yes, something get some little crack,
or no pay? Yeah. But also for, for Spotify, their premium, you
know, their customer needs to have the app. And and so so one
is an increase in people downloading the app becomes an
important metric for them. Yeah, along with an increase in people
signing up for premium service, or one would presume, although
that's not mentioned that I can see an increase in advertising
revenue. They've misjudged this. And if not, that what they're
trying to do may not be possible. But you can't just do
this in a year and say, okay, four quarters later, you can see
the significant advance in in people coming over to to
experience podcasting on our app, it has nothing to do what
they should have done is built a better app.
That man that is 100% true. Yeah. 100%. Because like, the
problem, the problem with Spotify is is a crappy app
experience. Yes. Like, it's even a crappy app experience for
music. But like, in the end, the podcast, app experience is way
worse. Yeah, it's, yeah. But if Spotify had taken $900 million,
or whatever it is, they spent so far, they've taken that money
and just gone out and like hired the best talent they could find.
I mean, like, they and and forgot about exclusives and all
this kind of jazz. If they did just done that, like they would
have had a killer experience. Yes, but people would want to
use the app
but that still does not guarantee the dominance
dominance comes from something else and you Yeah, this is this
is where I'm from the future because I've always said this,
it comes from me, I don't even know if one single app can do it
all. It's everybody has different tastes, there is, in
fact room enough for everybody. Yeah, I look at it just for
whatever reason, pod friend really works for me. And it's
all in the interface and the features and the functions. So
that works for me, I can use any of these other apps perfectly
fine. I use pod station in the studio, because it's a perfect
little browser extension. And it's exactly what I need for
quick lookups. And it serves a whole different function. You
know, I partially use hyper hyper catcher, because it has
yet another set of functionality to be able to do all of that. I
don't know, I I have never seen any company really do it all and
do it well. And I just think that there's a overestimation
maybe on everybody's part that this market can be captured.
I'll tell you one thing, Apple's probably thinking twice about
their podcasts plus experience where they're gonna have premium
content.
There they are.
I mean, they're really missing missing the point here. Yes,
content is king. But is it really, to me, I've always felt
that the end user and the developers, they're the ones
that determine everything, they determine the ultimate result?
The question is, how many layers of management and and money crap
is inserted between those two?
Well, I mean, a good a good example of that is the pocket
casts. And if you saw that story, so
yes. And I and I saw the discussion on no agenda
social.com. And
where they talking about? I don't know. I mean, I'm sorry,
pod
podcast index that social Sorry, I've got too many communities in
my life. Yeah. And they bleed over. Yeah. So so I don't know,
mastodon, and I thought it was a good app. It's totally a good
app. A, you know, yeah, it takes quite a bit to run the
infrastructure. You know, if you if you make, I've started up
companies, and if you and I had to had to be paid to do this,
you know, already, you can see how much money would go into it,
it'd be 20 fold of what we've actually, you know, even even
brought in on donations and and a higher multiple of what we've
spent, I'm worth at least,
yeah, I'm worth at least 600,000. I mean, minimum.
So well, so there's my other point. So yeah, so we would be
we would be at a very, very low number. And then you need
someone to be administration, someone to be CEO, and then
someone do this and that. And then before you know, you have
12 people, you got a million dollar payroll. And now In fact,
these days, probably even less people will get to that number.
And I don't know exactly, I guess they were I've not
evaluated how they were making money, or what there was it just
pay? Was it advertising data? I have no idea. But the future,
the future no longer has this monolithic lists. The idea that
one podcast is the number one podcast in the world is
ridiculous. It makes it makes no difference. This podcast is
supporting and quite a few listeners all the way down the
line with the podcast index project. And it's just working
and look at how little hassle there is. No, there's no
cooperative, it's a whole, this is a whole different way of
thinking about
business. And then we went into this knowing that, like, we were
gonna try to keep things expenses at the bare minimum
until you know, at least until we found out okay, this is how
much of a baseline that we can expect. So, like he said, the
whole index runs on $300 a month or the posting. Yeah, I mean,
that's it. I mean, the whole thing, the whole thing. Now, if,
if I, if I could have as a, you know, as a planner, as an admin,
or whatever, if I could have everything I wanted, if I could
have every server configuration that I wanted, you know, you're
looking at 500 a month, probably, like, if that's the
case, then then running a podcast app, even with a full
back end and losing $2 million. That's just inexcusable to me. I
mean, and it's obviously a business problem. It's not a
technology problem.
Exactly. And clearly a management issue. So and this
and we'll, we'll get to it later about,
you know, let me let me throw one other thing, please. Okay. I
think this also ties into another story which is pod
chaser, supporting, supporting exclusive Have Spotify podcast
on their platform, you know, they get a $4 million funding
round. And, and I super appreciate those guys with other
thing with the taxonomy project. I mean, they've given back to
the community already to the podcasting world already. But
the issue there though, is that there is way too much of this
sort of VC, VC, exit strategy stuff going on. And, you know, I
don't know much about pod chasers, you know, about them
internally. But all I know is the guys I've talked to it in, I
just think this is a bad idea. Like, I don't think that it was
wise for them to go to go and add support for Spotify
exclusive shows on their platform, like it, it devalues
the whole podcasting open ecosystem is either a terrified
of Spotify, or the thinks that there's that they're ruining it
like that, they're that they're making it worse. So if you know
pod, pod chaser had a really good platform has a really good
platform, their web, the web property is great. And they're
doing all the taxonomy stuff and doing crediting and all this
sort of shorter jazz, I just think that a move like that is
gonna lose you goodwill, I don't think anybody's gonna care.
Nobody's going to use that feature on the site, or not many
people are going to use it to comment in that kind of thing.
And there's, the only reason I see that it could be something
to do as part of your strategy is, is part of the VC play is,
is you want that in order to attract some larger money. And I
just don't, to me, there's too much VC in the podcasting space.
Having had experience with building companies, on sales,
building companies, with elbow grease and building them with
venture capital money. If I were to guess what, what is going on
here is, whoever started this, it doesn't really matter. And I
could be completely wrong, but this is how it feels to me.
Great idea, you know, having this type of information, IMDb
for podcasts, I yeah, of course, that's, that's totally cool. And
they seem to want to interrupt interact. And to do something
like this very well, and to do it as a company, and not as a
kind of open curated project, which is, it's all very
difficult, no doubt about it. You need to have people and
people need to be incentivized. And so what they have to run
money through it. And you know, what is the ultimate business
model? Well, if you're calling yourself the IMDb of podcasts,
then you are automatically positioning yourself to be
purchased as such, which is what the end result is, or one of the
two end results desired by venture capital investment,
either an IPO or being bought by a larger player. So it would
appear to me this was a, an perhaps interesting,
interestingly timed investment to to be there when Spotify
wants this additional information.
Yeah, yeah. And that's what, that's what it looks exactly
like to me. And, and I just don't like imagine if sure
there's lots of VC money everywhere. I mean, imagine if,
you know, any open up, imagine if if TCP IP, all of a sudden
had venture capital money going into companies that were going
to, you know, figure out how to add things to it and monetize
it. Like, there's just an open ecosystem, you're either in the
open or you're not. And this hybrid approach where, where you
say, well, we're gonna either be, you know, we're gonna be, we
want to do all the work in the open ecosystem, but then we, but
we're also going to be pulling in, you know, these other
exclusive things. I mean, like, it just doesn't fit and it makes
it makes your product worse, to me and their product
on its own, but from an experiential, I've never used
it, but why would I care if they also have Spotify stuff there?
If I if I happen to use one show on Spotify, or am I not happy
that I can also get it over there? As a as an end user? I
don't think that's a downside is where their focus is. That's
what that's what will be important. Are they building
something to be attractive to Spotify? are they building
something for something people want?
That's Yes, that's the question. I it's To me, it's a goodwill
issue. It really is just to get
man you got You're too far down south Dave Jones. People don't
care about goodwill anymore. Oh, okay. I'm
just dead. No loyalty.
That's you and me old school. No, that's the I'm
here in Alabama with a sweet tea.
I'll give you my example.
All right, you
built the people search endpoint, which is some kind of
sorcery that you have baked in. And it is so incredibly
effective and so beautiful. And you build something that people
wanted and even I didn't even really care about it. And it
popped up and and I said, How did I live without this? Yeah,
truly, I was looking for the guy who wrote a Bitcoin in black
America. Isaiah Jackson. Yeah, I don't know this guy. Right. And
so I just typed in Isaiah Jackson, because I knew he was
gonna be on a podcast somewhere. So I want to hear him speak. He
wrote a book, and nothing on the regular podcast search by the
people search. And there's like, boom, six episodes. Oh, there's
one that he did with the, with my buddy, Gary Leland, oh, I
delight cam click boom. And then I heard. Yeah, he mentioned his
podcast, I had the title. And it was and it was all within an on
a web app in the car.
Let me let me say, oh, that ties back into the pocket cast, you
know, losing money thing, because that that cert there,
that server that holds that index for the people search cost
$10.
Yes, but you spent weeks and weeks and weeks thinking,
conceptualizing and ultimately building it. less true. Yeah. So
you value that in company time. And it's invaluable.
Yeah. I mean, if if I, if I build it out at 1500 an hour?
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's a lot of money. Yes, I got that. No,
that's just but you know, the infrastructure and everything,
is it, you can run this stuff without, without all that? And I
just, I don't know that. It just to me, it's inexcusable. To look
your investors in the face and say, we, we run a podcast app.
And we lost $2 million? Nothing. Jesus, Oh, my God. I mean, like,
most, most podcast app developers would be, like, our
dream, a dream of having that kind of money. Yeah,
but but really, you know, as you already said, Yeah, you can buy
more machines and a couple more things. But really, you just
want that kind of money to put in the bank or in Bitcoin or to
you know, do a spend a little bit on hookers and blow? That's
really it. I mean, what do you really need? And now I've been
drinking the kool aid on Bitcoin, like the truth of it
all, and what it what his possibilities are? And, you
know, signal is down, or is it going up and down today?
That that's an interesting thing, because I heard a lot of
people talking about signal as if, as if the WhatsApp Terms of
Service change was the reason everybody's diving into signal.
I don't think that's true at all. I think the reason of
everybody's going into signal is because of the deep platforming.
Well, it's it's a viral wave, it's a viral truth wave. And a
lot of this is happening if we have anything to thank President
Trump for, besides the exposure of China, fake news, and, and
the tracking and what Silicon Valley is really doing. And, you
know, it's the scales fall slowly from people's eyes. But
once the truth goes viral, and then it's Yeah, so part of it to
hear about, I mean, it's, it's equally like we're, for many
times, this is cyclical. And I haven't been on Facebook, or I'm
not on Instagram, just Twitter, but Facebook would do the
rounds. Oh, I'm posting this, this is a legal statement, you
don't have the right to use my content, and under Section three
B of the law, whatever. And it's like something that someone
said, Yeah, you got to post this or that your content is
protected from Facebook's Terms of Service, and millions and
millions and millions of people will send this and shuttle it
around. And so now the truth is out. And they were told go to
signal. And part of it is Moxie appearing on the Joe Rogan show,
right? Just before this all happened. Part of it is people
just having more awareness, and they flock over to something.
And all the claims are sort of signal may be true, it may be
completely safe, effective, anonymous, whatever. It's still
centralized. This is the next step people have to understand.
And like the index, there's so much you and I want to move away
from us or have replicated for all the right reasons. And we'll
get there, but it's an obvious weakness, but it's not as bad as
a corporate entity any so there's doing the rounds now
with matrix.org matrix.org is to protocol I would categorize it
as kind of a mastodon for chat. And we've seen all kinds of
different versions of this and they may even have something on
Their own chain, but they still have some centralized API stuff.
And ultimately, there's a company involved. When there's a
company involved, it's with the best intentions, stuff can just,
you know, go awry, certainly if there's payroll, etc. Yeah, that
has to be paid from something. And so I'm always wary of that.
And then, you know, I've seen the alternative possibilities.
And we're gonna get to that. And I think podcasts that can
interesting enough help people get to understanding that I
mean, we've all heard web 3.0 it's all going to be on the
blockchain. Yes. You heard that a million times.
Yeah. And that well, on this date on the signal thing, I had
five people that, you know, like five friends of mine that popped
up on signal in the last week. And these guys were not these
are not listening to Joe Rogan. They were never on WhatsApp.
They weren't they they I know exactly why they popped up on
there is because they saw the wave of D platforming with the
parlor stuff. You know, we didn't we had Martin on the
show. Last week, we didn't even talk really about any of the D
platforming stuff. Right. Like, we know all the all the D
platforming that happened. All this, you know, there was just
this sort of shutter. Yeah, that went through everybody where
they're like, Oh, crap, you know, app, apple, took this app
off the App Store, and they're in here's a spot and Amazon de
Lis, you know, kicked them off a TBS, and then Spotify removed
more, another, another show this pay Devin show, then it's like,
it's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, all these series of
things happened at once. And everybody is just like this,
this shiver that went through, and then all of a sudden,
everybody's looking for an alternative to the main, the
main players,
right? And may I may, or may I theorize that when you see
corporations do this, apple, Spotify, but also, there's been
a lot of certainly, after January six, many big
corporations have been virtue signaling, then what they are
going to do, and the people are dropping clients and lawyers are
leaving. And this is all part of the canceled culture pressure
system in which the mainstream media is complicit. But they're
also trapped in it, because it's all the same organizations.
It's, you know, why do people get d platformed? for saying
hydroxychloroquine, which, you know, just as a as an example,
you know, Anthony Fauci himself wrote a paper about how well it
works against it. What why were videos taken down, why are you
not allowed to link to anything? But because the pharmaceutical
companies are the biggest advertisers, the evil is not
even in the people executing it, they have no choice. No choice.
That's interesting, because I've got at least two things done. So
I've got the largest advertisers outside of the political cycle,
which kind of doubles everything. You know, there's
another couple billion that flows in is pharmaceutical and
telecoms, Verizon, at&t, T Mobile, that's really your top
right there. And then you get into financial services,
insurance credit, mortgages. But the number one and we're unique
in the United States is is pharmaceuticals,
that in this, I think it's important to know that or to
remember that this is not new, like that one of my favorite,
one of my favorite things to do anytime there's a big sort of
event like this, is to go and do a Google search for you do site
colon, ny times.com. And then you get before colon a certain
year, and then you do have your search term. So you're gonna get
all the New York Times all the results from the New York Times
website before a certain year in, like I put in freedom of
speech, ACLU. And I got articles going way, way back in, like
1989 is in an article about how campuses are having to deal with
this issue of speech and how they were already in 1989.
Trying to figure out what they were going to do about
harassment in these kinds of things. And this says, one of
these guys, I think, discuss from the ACA Oh, yeah. for
colleges that for the college's not to deal with the racial
prejudice on campus, is an abdication of their
responsibility in a free society. Set Hourglass OR
executive of the American Civil Liberties Union. They've got to
address those things, but not this way. Both because it
doesn't work and because it's incompatible with freedom of
speech and religion. When you pass a rule which represses
speech you are avoiding dealing with the underlying problem.
Boom, you're passing a rule whose sweep is going to be
broader than the things you're trying to contain. In the rule,
there was just was expulsion and that kind of thing for people
who, who are found to have done racial slurs. And
that was when
1989 April 25. Well, this is not new. The difference though. It's
not new. But what the reason is that what's different now is
that we is this, millions of people have a voice in the
public square that they've never met. They never had.
Well, slight counter to that. Okay, after the Civil War cities
had some of them had 1000 newschool that had 1000
newspapers, even before and during the Civil War. It was in
somewhere, just a pamphlet, you know, not all were for profit,
but people were publishing it was a revolution and people were
publishing little newspapers. After the Civil War, takeover,
they went from 1000s per city, to maybe 10. Because those 10
that had, you know, bigger readership. They said, Well,
those guys a bunch of slaveholders. Yeah, it's the
same thing. The technology's changed and made it so everybody
is is one of the publishers because you are publishing your
opinion and sometimes fact and research and journalism. But you
know, just call someone racist. It's good. That's, that's,
that's our Achilles heel with America.
Well, that's, you know, I get a kick out of looking at when I
looked into the Pete Evans thing being being duelist. I don't
know anything about Pete Evans. I mean, they, they said they
delisted in all Spotify because of saying false information
about COVID or something like that. And so, you know, look, I
just fire up Spotify. And I looked up, news typed in Pete
Evans course he's gone. And then I type in New York Times
caliphate. And it's still on there. Even though that even
though that entire series has been completely debunked every
it was all a lie. Every bit of it was a lie. I think I sent you
did you get my clips? I did. I did. Okay. You know, we talked
about this, we, we talked about this when it first happened a
few months ago. And there's Gosh, this was back in
September, I think, or something like that. So the New York Times
Caliphate, which was part of the daily podcast, it was, I think,
like a special report that lasted, like a couple months
that they interviewed this guy who's from Canada, he said that
he went over and participated in a terrorism with like ISIS or
somebody, right. And if you want to play the clip in there about
the caliphate, that'll just give everybody out sort of glimpse of
what that was.
The blood was just, it was warm, and it sprayed everywhere. And
the guy cried, was crying and screaming. He did not die after
the first time. The second time, he punched over those. It's
hard. I had to stab him multiple times. And then can we put them
up on a cross and I had to leave the dagger in his heart. And
then there was a sign that said it had a code on it. And, like
166 drugs and alcohol offense
just at the time, it just felt disgusting but numb at the same
time. Like gloomy ish. I just instantly thought I'm a psycho
killer now. And he thought the hell did I just do that night I
just I couldn't sleep at all. I stayed up all night. I got
really sick again. I kept thinking of the guy. I love I
can always I can still feel having my hand on his shoulder.
holding him I was pushing him into the knife too. I could
still feel that I get you know, stabbing someone in the heart
like that. I just kept replaying the hand action in my hand going
there. I just kept thinking different things as a rush of
thoughts in my head. I stabbed in the blood was just
everywhere. What the hell did I just do? I'm a psycho killer
now. I didn't give him a chance to repent stabbed him. If I die
after doing something like this. I will if he's gone on on what
the hell did I just do then I started thinking of my family.
What If they were here to be my Dad, you're basically killing
your own parents in a way. Maybe that Jihad that I'm doing right
now is the wrong type of jihad. Maybe? No, this isn't this isn't
the right light for me.
So this, like, yeah.
Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you brought this one. This is good
to hear.
what's what's worse, somebody's saying that they think COVID is
bullshit or that. I mean, that's like, fully produced the
intensity of it, the guys, I mean, the emotions of that may
just sucked you in to this guy's story and into this whole false
narrative. And it's completely made up. Well, can you?
Well, let me give this, then we get this a stab. But it's still
on Spotify. Yeah. Okay, so the New York Times who, in my
opinion, print the mainstream medical narrative, as determined
by the pharmaceutical industry, who have put us in the
biosecurity state, that is their job. And they cannot be
discredited. If they are discredited as being full of
crap and very good at fear porn and death porn and gore porn,
then that, that will, they will be no longer credible, because
it's the new york times in the Washington Post, that everything
is funneled through every story. I mean, you have to believe as I
do, that, pretty much everything you read needs to be questioned.
And certainly when it comes to this to COVID. So they cannot be
discredited. And it's it's a huge, you know, so they take
away the the award and a couple other things, but from what I'm
reading, there was some actual coercion to tell people to shut
up about it inside the the daily group.
Like some public radio stations are now taking them off, yeah,
off of their stations.
So this is, in my mind, a great thing. Forget justice. There's
no justice and who's d platformed. or not, I'm not
interested anymore. Personally, this is a bug in the system,
just like the internet was obviously architected to be an
autonomous thing that could survive a large scale physical
destruction and would continue to function and, and in routing,
etc, which is really what everything we're doing is based
on can be kind of either repaired quickly, some of its
automatic, so and that was why the the US metal military
concepted it and probably for a lot of other reasons, we're not
maybe now starting to understand. So just like that
layer, the layer on top, for me personally, if I can, if you
take ego out of it, because that's people are stuck in an
Instagram, ego, world of likes, and etc. But if I want my voice
to be heard, for anyone who's interested, I have alternatives
to the social media companies, search is a little different
searches is harder, but for the stuff that I really need. Mainly
I can get from our own search, which has been put together
collaboratively. So it's just a bug, you just route around it.
All these things are bugs. And Spotify is just a bug. It really
does a twit it, it doesn't matter. Spotify is not keeping
Joe Rogan's secret. I mean, how many times we have to delete a
rogue feed in the feed in the index, or how many other video
proxies and websites. It's a bug. It's just if people want
it, they're going to get it. So it's much easier to work
directly with what people want. Give that to them, and try and
base it on things that that give everybody a stake in it and
everybody some responsibility and you know, I'm going to sound
like a broken record for now for the rest of my life. But I
really think that particularly with lightning, the idea that
you can decentralize all forms of communication, money just
being one of them. But that it comes with a network transfer
associated costs is very appealing.
Well, they're good, they're, they're going at day. The
magical day. Again, there they are go whoever they use is going
they're going after Bitcoin. It may be starting now. Because
yes, sir. Yes, sir. That was it. The Yahoo came out with a story
largely large Bitcoin payments to right wing activists one
month before capital right
now of course, of course. So That what it may I mean, they've
been saying that about crypto and Bitcoin for 10 years, and
it's still here. So, right, who knows? Who knows? Possibly?
Okay, we'll see. But what I what blows me away?
I guess I would say is I don't think the Bitcoin guys maybe are
prepared for the hate that they're gonna get.
I have the I think they are?
And he did,
yes. So what I see is, let's just call it the people that
I've interacted with on our project are 25 to 30 years old,
predominantly men. I don't know why. But it seems it seems to be
male oriented. And they have their Bitcoin and they have
their lightning. And they are disillusioned by what they've
grown up in so far, you know, being a second grader at 911,
and everything that's happened since then. And they believe
that through success of adoption, they will win. On the
other side, you have the central bankers, governments, all all
corporations and an army to backup back in an army,
right? which cannot be discounted, but
no, no, you cannot discount the guns part. But this is the
moment. And then and this goes for. Let me just, I'm trying to
get this all out. It's fresh in my mind, but to me, a lot of
things will fall into place. So this little spat going back and
forth about what Rob Greenlee did or didn't say about
supporting podcasting index in the namespace. You know,
actually hold on a second, we should do this properly this
time for some hot space. Yeah,
we got mud wrestling in the namespace hot corner today,
gentlemen,
get my cigarettes.
So it's, it is to me, it is completely irrelevant. who
supports the tags, who doesn't support the tags, there is a
movement underway that is bigger than those discussions. And, and
the adoption is coming very, very fast. And you're seeing it
pop up on the mastodon, you're seeing ipfs. Coming back, again,
you're seeing how gateways can be utilized. You're looking at
people who are very serious and have some experience in
distributed systems. My my personal mission is to introduce
lightning network into that. Because I believe that idea can
solve so many things. And it is just a way to route and I'm not
looking at it as money. Really, it's a utility, when you look at
the micro payments that we're talking about small, you know, a
10th of a penny. But that will guarantee that you can get
something from A to B, and there's a record of it, and
everybody can see it. And thus you're also recording history,
which is a whole nother thing philosophically, we can talk
about this is very, very powerful. There's a log of
transactions out there that can contain contain a payload. And
the concept of a blockchain is, the more payload you utilize,
the more you pay. It's literally about size. So it's a very fair
system. And it will work for and it works today. I mean, in every
lightning node wallet manager, do Hickey there's a chat
function.
Yeah. Yeah.
You can chat with someone else who has a node. It's universal.
It's a it's, it's mind blowing. And it's synced and it's timed.
And you know, when it occurred and you know, which IDs
participated in it, you can build huge applications on top
of that.
And it's bet and it's backed by by Bitcoin which is currently
undergirded by Oh my god, how much processing power is there
now? It's it's, it's ungodly. How many? Like, just that place?
You went to an Austin? Yeah, I guess is near you.
60,000 bitmain machines running in a shed? Yeah,
that's just like 1% of the network probably. Yeah. It's
like it's not everything can be taken down. Anything can be
taken down. You know, we if you're, if you don't believe
that, I mean, because let's just say they wanted to take the
Bitcoin network down, it could take they could do it. They
could do it all they just go just cross the cross border at
the at the edge at the edge of country borders of internet
service backbones. They just put in an application layer, let you
know, layer three or four. layer three or four? Can they just
block it? And it can be done and but the if you want to get
everything can be blocked, ultimately there has to be some
realization of that. But then you also have to think well,
that requires globe that requires a global coordinated
effort. And the last, the only couple of times in the past that
there has been a global coordinated a truly global
coordinated effort. where two world wars, right, if it comes
to that point, we probably have bigger issues. Or maybe, you
know, maybe that's at the root of bigger consequences.
Okay, so in my mind, the beauty of, and I like Bitcoin as the,
it's just, I just want to focus only on Bitcoin, I think there's
no company associated with it, that's good enough for me.
That's, that gives it more chance than most. So, you know,
no more coins can be created. And it's a simple inefficient
system for what we want to do. But the second layer, which is
of which lightning network is an example seems to seems to be
very, very functional. The beauty of so so I just can't
work for within my life with anything by saying they might
take it down, or it's useless. So I find that may be. So it's
not how I work, I just go ahead. But I may be totally wrong. And
that's why namespace arguments about who supports tags, hey, we
may be totally wrong. See you later, he catch up. And we hope
that we really, really hope to have everybody on board. But
that only means that we can drive it and we don't drive it
app developers drive it with the people who use their apps. That
is that is the bottom line. That is it. Yes, of course, the
content is important. But as you see, you can't get back to what
Citigroup says. It looks like just buying content isn't the
only way you have to go if you want to capture this market.
He Oh, that was one of the things you said at the very
beginning, when we first started this thing is you. You convinced
me that apps were that's where the podcasting lives and dies by
the apps. That's
That's today's consumer. And I prefer to look at people who I
listened to me as you know, as interactive on it, but the
mainstream in general looks at people as consumers. They don't
see that really the difference between two apps, okay, it's a
red app for Netflix. It's a smiley face app for amazon
music. It's Spotify is this app, and then I who I have this app,
it's apps, they don't really feel the the the hugeness of
what's behind it, a very small company can make a big impact.
They don't know anymore. They do know, it's annoying that
everyone has different rules, and you have to do different
things, and you have different billing cycles. My point about
working with Bitcoin, and specifically the lightning
network, is that our work makes it more valuable just by us
doing it.
Okay, yeah,
the more people use it, even though it will be it will not be
measurable necessarily. We might be I think we already measure
something. Here, let me let me we'll do an maybe an update. But
Sphinx has been looking at how to scale Sphinx chat, who is the
first ones to implement the value block in real time
streaming payments, in the value for value philosophy, they had
an issue scaling, they had that issue because of podcasting.
Because of that, now, lightning labs has decided that a few
tweaks, I'm not sure if it's something that goes all the way
down the line, or can be done individually, but they have re
architected how nodes work to provide for virtual nodes. So
very much like, you know, now I only have one node with one node
address, but I can have 100 of my friends or maybe 1000, or I
don't know, it could be a business with virtual nodes that
you in effect, if you have the node, your public key and your
seed, you can get even back what you might have otherwise lost in
a channel all that's technical doesn't matter. podcasting has
moved that forward. We have had that impact.
Already.
That's mind boggling to me. Yeah. And so not so things are
changing, and we're doing it and ultimately that will have
response if people use it. You know, I don't I don't know. I
don't know what money is anymore. I'm not quite sure but
I see value in something and it goes up and I can exchange it
over here. I don't really get it anymore. But I can see that if
we put the energy into it. And that's really what Bitcoin is is
storing energy. If we put energy into it, I think it will move
the value of everything forward and everybody should be able to
win. But more importantly, it's everybody. And the sooner we get
over the, it has to be free people will never do that. Okay.
We'll keep pushing.
By the way, I'm glad you mentioned lightning lightning
labs. Because if you want to see diversity, look at their boat.
Look at their Oh, yeah. Executive Leadership. Yeah, I
mean, that that is a it looks like this sinner. It's like the
centerfold of a Richard scarry book.
I mean, it's like Benetton commercial.
Yeah, it is. I mean, it's got every you know, nationality and
gender and everything you could want on the boy, I mean, like
take technology does not. I guess the reason I was impressed
by that is because when you combine freedom, like True, true
freedom, with money, diversity follows that. Yes, it follows
freedom. It does not follow contraction and control.
Now you're so right.
And you throw some money in there. And that, then you're
talking, you know, some serious diversity because everybody
likes money.
And that's a it's kind of interesting, the universal
again, I've just been interacting with so many, so
many people in the who are small group, really, when it comes to
the lightning network. It's also inherently a political, the only
politics is freedom. The only politics is freedom. And that's
not America first. magga. It's none of that. It's just freedom.
It's just freedom. Just, I want freedom. Freedom. Where's our
future? President? Hold on? Where is she? Where's our
future? Present? He or she is?
You? By the way? you texted me? I don't know why this. He texted
me and said, Is it just me and you on the pod today?
Yeah. Oh, excuse me. all uppercase, I could have done it
in quotes. Can't beat them, join them.
That is a that is a yellow card right there. That's not
acceptable. So I did notice, though, that GitHub, I think,
maybe brandable ended posted it to GitHub now says you can run a
few commands and change the name of your branch from master
branch to main.
Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, some of that shifts creeping in
there.
Well, that the only reason I'm bringing that up is not I don't
really care, I think it's fine. If they want to do that I can do
whatever they want. And, and I really don't have a problem with
it. But it struck me really on a on a different note, is that
that's a good example of, of language sort of losing its
context? Because
he has absolutely, how about masterbedroom has also been
changed for the same reason. Oh, is it? That Yeah, the National
Association of Realtors, they've got all these crazy rules in
place.
Well, you know, Matt, Master, if, like if he like
traditionally in a massive like, in a SQL Server context, you may
have them or us, or hard drives or anything like this in
technology, you have a master and a slave
that shows the dominance position.
Now I can see I can see changing that terminology. And I have no
problem with that. I think it's fine, primary, secondary or
whatever. But the note, but the term that the problem I have
here, though, is not is that master doesn't always is not
always ordinal master is a word that means other things. Like
you can master a skill. Or, you know, you can, like the idea of
a master branch isn't is not inherent. It's not inherent in a
master branch to have a slave branch. Right? It just means in
that context, it just means that that's the one that everybody is
supposed is supposed to use, because it's considered to be
the best in the option like there's no some that some of
this stuff is like I said, I have no problem with changing
master slave. I actually think that's probably a good idea. But
the but the you got to be careful when you're like this
language is so critical to understanding things if we're,
if we're changing things because it reminds us of something
hurtful. Then if you in this context, you're going to lose,
like, what do you did? This is not that. I know I'm trying I'm
being fusing here like, but master in this context is not a
master slave relationship. Okay, it's just it just means first.
It just means like the
primary I understand. The point is, why does this have to
happen? And you kind of touched on it. People who are over
socialized get triggered by shit like this. The problem is not
with the words, it's the problem with people who have decided or
who have authority over the usage of these words, that it
triggers them doesn't trigger me. And it is good or bad. I'm
like, Oh, that's horrible slavery, or, Oh, I love having
some slavery stuff in there. Now, neither way. So the context
is, it's people forcing their own contextualization on others.
And so I think that's what they fear and fear
a fear of people being afraid to say, well, that's dumb. Oh, oh,
you have white guilt. white privilege. Yeah, you come on
this is I have no I have no patience for that. The only
truth is a numbers. And therefore the only record of
truth is the blockchain. Well, orange pill.
Orange pill.
Hey, we're burying the lead. Now, what's
the lead?
The API we're working on.
Which is
ln PE.
Oh, oh, yeah. But we changed. We changed our strategy on that.
Like, we're like, I'm not baking that in anymore. Right. We're
doing we're doing that with we're taking a different
different route.
What are we doing? Well, you
mean like, cuz we talked we talked about not Brett, you
know, not brokering it or whatever. And yet, let him do
it. We're trying we've been, we're still gonna
we're still gonna hand off the splits, right?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, definitely that
but no one knows what we're talking about. My point would be
Hello, app developers. This is what I mean by burying the lede.
Remember all that sexy stuff we showed you with? With Sphinx
chat with sending satoshis per minute. We're about to give you
a way to put that in your existing app.
Yet, yeah. Well, Elon, okay. So if nobody knows what Elon pay
is, no one
knows what that is. No one cares. What are we doing? Are we
gonna enable these developers to be able to send money with every
minute? Yeah.
I guess and the minute I don't know about minute, okay, I don't
know if we can handle that. But we can we own an interval? Yeah,
sure. Like, so. Ellen pay is the is this API that a guy named Tim
manages, or he wrote it. And it allows you to create just spin
up wallets, lightning wallets, and he's got key send outbound.
And it's super simple API. So the way it works is you just you
get keys from him, and you can spin up and these are custodial
wallets. So each got to know that you would spin up a wallet,
it's basically one command to the API, it's I think it's just
wallet slash wallet API, v one slash wallet, I think you just
create a wallet with a with a rest call. And then it hands you
back, the wallet ID and three access keys is there's the three
access keys or three different permission levels
could actually connect, you can ask your question. Yes, sir. Can
Can you? For me really, can you describe how the system works,
but not from the technical level? Just the flow. So we
understand that first and then and then we understand how it
works? Because This to me is extremely exciting. But I want I
want it I want people to understand who have no idea what
you just said.
Okay, so I'm talking about like, the flow from the loading us and
all that jazz.
Yeah, but also just so the user has an app.
Oh, okay. Okay. See that? That is me just being full nerd. Not
not.
No, I love you. I love you. I mean, you're dreaming up this to
man, this is not my dream. This is you and me banging this shit
out for hours on end.
Okay, so here's the flow. Imagine you're
in a world where you want to send money to your favorite
podcaster.
So you're in an app. And you you pull it up on your phone is the
first time you've used it. Where's your existing app? Okay,
yes, usually,
it's your own. No new app you can use, you can keep your
doctor,
you keep your doctor. Okay, so you can keep your app and your
app developer
and your app developer. That's it.
You can keep your your app developer releases in version of
pod, pal. Next to us is pod ESL. pod buddy. Okay, pod buddy.
Yeah. Okay, so you so pod buddy is a new version that's released
and it now supports podcasting 2.0 payments. And the first
thing that happens is it pops up says, Hey, you can now pay your
favorite podcaster. Do you want to do that? And you say, yeah,
hell yeah, I want to do that. You hit, you hit go. And it
says, alright, I just spun you up a wallet, a podcast wallet, a
podcast wallet. And then you say, Okay, great. And then it
gives you a QR code, which the QR code is is an invoice for
where to send your where to send some Bitcoin in order to deposit
money into your podcast wallet. So you flip over to something
like strike, or another or breeze or another podcast while
another lightning wallet, that you've got funds in. And you
paste that qR in there, and it fires off. Let's just say you
chose $20, it fires off $20 to your podcast. Your podcast app
now shows that you have $20 balance in your wallet. And then
it says, okay, who do you want to support? Which podcasts Do
you want to support? Can you say, oh, pod news? Hold
on, hold on, hold on. Where did this step come from?
Which was the what? What
podcast? Do you want to support? I thought it was per podcast,
you can set a value per minute.
Yeah, yeah. So like, which one do you want? Which one do you
want to pay? Which ones do you want to pay? Because some you
may have in your podcast app, do you don't care? Think about
Okay, is this a step we hadn't had before? I just I was I
personally, I would rather have the default be at some low
number, let's say 10 satoshis a minute, which you are asked to
configure to your value, which is adjustable per podcast. So
that everyone has it. By the way, if that podcaster doesn't
have a podcast or wallet, you don't lose any money, it just
doesn't get sent. Or you can set it to zero. I just find the idea
of Which one do you want to support? No, I think you either
in on the game or not.
So you're saying we don't have
that step right now?
Yeah, but they all default to zero, right. In Sphinx, when I
joined the new when I joined a new tribe, it's it's zero I have
to get set.
Right? Okay. Well, that's different to saying Which one do
you want to support? It's fine. If it's set at zero. Okay,
that's fine. It's set to zero. In fact, I like that better,
instead of zero. And then when you go to listen to a podcast,
it'll either remind you asked you or some tickler that will
say your settings, number zero SATs so that you are asked to
configure that, okay, that's better than tick boxes, I'll
support these and then I put the value in. I think that's missing
out I just from a user experience. I think we'll set it
at zero. That's fine
as the default, but the app has to have some way of telling you
that you're a douche, though. Like
you're ahead of the game, let's get them to pay first, then. The
douche nudge flag, we'll get that.
Okay. Okay, so you now you now have to have a wallet with $20
in it and the app knows that you have a wallet with $20 in it
because it has the linkage to the app to the to the wallet. So
now, your pot your podcast app, as you listen to podcasts. It is
now streaming Kissin payments, at the rate that you chose at
the amount of sets that you chose automatically. And then
when it hits when your balance is zero. It pops up the dish
flag or the dish nudge and it says you know, hey, you're out
of money do you want to do you want to refill your your wallet
and you say yeah, and it pops up another qR and you go and you
fill it, fill it back up.
And you mentioned strike, which is kind of cool because strike I
will describe that very easily as Venmo for Bitcoin, you hook
it up to your bank account the exact same way with the exact
same system that Venmo uses, which I'm not a fan of, but I'm
just saying it's out there. And then when you connect you can
with strike I believe you'll be able to connect your wallet to
strike when we integrate with them. So your payments can go
directly from your bank account. You don't even have to put it
into a wallet first. But in in in initial instance, strike is a
really easy way to just top up your podcast wallet.
Yeah, it's the way that I do. It's the way that I top up
Things wallet right now. Yeah? And if you do it that way, too?
No, I just send it from my own node.
Oh, yeah. Well, I, I put, I mean, I'm
already living in the in the Bitcoin world, like I'm buying
and selling stuff in Bitcoin and lightning.
But so the way the way I do it is I have a, I have my debit
card linked to my strike account, so I just buy, I just
bought, you know, 50 bucks worth of Bitcoin every, every so often
just shove it right in there. And then I just pay it with an
invoice straight to my Sphinx node,
and there's no fees, right? So and what I like doing is just
calling these things like podcasts wallet and call it
payments. And, you know, I'm not a jihadist when it comes to
calling it satoshis and Bitcoin, that, in fact, my friend, the
former New York banker who hates Bitcoin with the passion,
because he sees the men with the beards and and the vision and
the passion. And he's on the central bank and gun side. Even
he says, what you're doing here is, is revolutionary. And as
long as I don't have to hear the word Bitcoin all the time, it
says it was like, get this thing and top it up over here. So get
your strike, and top up your podcast wallet. And maybe for
him, we just keep it all in dollars, of course, people will
eventually have to learn satoshis. But for me, it's like
baby steps, you know, I don't have any religion about that and
just call it dollars for all I care to show both. Okay, I'm
sorry, I interrupted you. But this is good, because we're
hammering out the last bits of the flow.
Now that that's, that's the, that's it. That's the story.
That's the fairy tale. And
that will hopefully be your favorite podcast that may also
have a boost functionality. So if you want to send an extra
amount of payment, like, boom, that was so funny. And it'll be,
you know, and then we can get into all the beautiful features
where that's time coded. And podcasts are can understand it.
Okay, so now now the technical side of that, that sounds pretty
easy, Dave? It did, Adam, it is easy. And we need some non
offensive venture capital, pitch music.
Let me say one other thing. We've had ongoing conversations
with some of the smartest people in this industry. You know, it's
Tim at lm PE, it's Wayne and buck. It's Ryan, it's Paul and
Evan. I mean, and these are super smart people. We've been
down many of these roads. And, yes, we understand that we are
talking about a custodial based wallet system, we understand all
of the possible issues, what we're not going to do is pull a
podcast or pull a podcast industry and chat about it
forever. If we fail, we fail, we'll push this something will
change, someone will have a better idea. We're small, and
we're flexible. So not overlooking all kinds of
security issues, which are actually quite small. But of
course, there's some trust issues that may or may not be
solvable. But we're just moving forward to get it done. And I
think everybody's saying, Hey, this is pretty good. That
particularly in light of the infrastructure changes that are
coming that will make it much more efficient and cost
effective for people to have just a virtual node that they
can share the cost with with other people, which would bring
it down to a penny a month maybe. But also opens up
opportunity for larger systems who want to who can make money
providing these services. So everybody can make money. And
can receive value would be more fair to say.
Yeah, so we're, you know, we're, and we're an example of that,
too. So we would make, you know, we would make money off that by
by providing an API for the value for the value blocks. And
that's so that, here's, here's the issue with with the value,
the value block in XML space, is the right way to go. It
specifies in an open way that everybody can see the payment
addresses. It says, here's the people that need to get paid as
people listen to this podcast. That is the correct, open,
transparent way to do it. Now, translating that into the
technical back and forth between an app and the and the API or
whatever they're doing. That gets can get sketchy. So if you
have let you know, let's just say that pod buddy is you know,
gets gets their car there. Let's just say they get compromised.
Well, then, now they can all of a sudden drain everybody's
wallet to some unknown Bitcoin address. So the danger, the
danger is within is giving the app too much power. And that's
what we have gone back and forth on is, is how much putting it in
the XML, again is the right thing to do. But it's, it's step
two, that gets tricky. So if you have, if you just say, Well,
okay, apps, all these apps, here's an API that allows you to
send your customers funds anywhere you want. That's
sketchy. But at the same time, if we interject ourselves into
the middle of that, and say, Well, okay, why don't you send?
Because this is one thing we thought of, we thought, well,
the way to solve that issue is, what we'll do is we'll say,
well, we'll build the API for the lightning. And then we'll
say, okay, the app can tell us that they want to send in the
payment, we'll double check with the feed and see where the value
block splits are in Wilson, the payment for them. But now, now
you have a real central point of failure. And you have us having
to deal with all the headache of being a money broker. And it's
like, No, no, no, no, no. We're just like, no, that's just too
much. So the sort of what we're settling on right now is there's
an a, you know, Elon pay is this API that is out there and
available. And one thing we can do is be a sort of trusted,
trusted party in that transaction, to where we can
say, okay, you're going to send, you're going to send payments to
this to these recipients. But you'll have to get your you'll
need to get the feed splits from us, is returned, still trying to
figure out exactly what that looks like. But that the, the
bottom line is there, we're trying to figure out some way if
we can get some like a, like a receipt, or something that shows
that the payments went to the right place.
Right. So the way it ended, this is what the index really does at
its core, is routing and resolution. So the podcaster
always has control at the at the core base level, over what their
payment split is, how many different people what
percentages go to each one, or entities because you know, it's
just a node. So they have ultimate control. value.
proposition number one for the index is what we already do for
the, for the next generation of apps as we provide a shortcut to
aggregating all that stuff. And, you know, that is an obvious
advantage, but also an obvious disadvantage, which we know has
to be solved. Right now we, you can get a dump of the database,
and someone could resurrect us, if we fell down, at least at
least there's that but that's obviously not the best way to
go. But that, but we know that for efficiency sake, and for the
type of developer that we have. And you know, it's like, you can
do it off of Apple, you can do it off of us. Everyone has
problems. Yeah, but you, you have a lot more influence over
here. The second part is making it drop dead simple for app
developers to input implement this, that you really only have
to focus on what the API is asking. You shouldn't have to
store user accounts and all kinds of things you would be
thinking of, I believe to have a central authority, because I see
these payments, not as payments, I see this split as the future
of a royalty system. And, and it kind of fell into our lap but
this is extremely important for value flow in future creative
and current creative endeavors. So for royalties of payments, in
the, in the in today's world, we have the antiquated music is
easier to explain. But you have ASCAP BMI, any of your actors,
you have AFTRA, maybe that's another way to look at. And so
these are huge nonprofits with hundreds of millions of dollars
running through them huge overhead, when really all they
have to do is figure out who, how many people enjoyed a piece
of entertainment, and what people in that piece of
entertainment are supposed to get a piece of the money that
was raised for that human being to enjoy it, and then send it
all the way down the line back To the Creator, which as you
know, rarely happens that way. And it takes, you know, 24 to 36
months, this is why musicians are always in debt to their
record company, because they get an advance until the money comes
in. So I'm simplifying it, but that piece needs to be trusted.
And I want us to be that trusted piece. And I want to do that
with truth in numbers, and mathematical numbers. So to be
able, so we can prove that this is the intended and it's
important because people's money depends on this. It's sure it's
it's tenths of a cent now, but who knows. So this is the
intended split. And I think down the line, they will be multisig
agreements for projects where, where that split may not be
changeable, because unless multiple signatories agree to
change that, I mean, I can see all this coming, I can see it as
clear as day. So that money has to be distributed. And so we
need to make sure that there's agreement amongst the parties,
ultimately, who are part of the split, as well as that that was
paid. And today, we will be able to manage the Okay, here's the
345 different addresses that are getting this payment, of course,
it's split up into five payments, but and what
percentages, and then please send us the receipt. So we can
match that with the chain. So everybody knows, this payment
took place it went to now you can call it tracking or just
receipts. Because we of course, don't really know who that note
is, you know, we don't know what has all the pieces, but
everybody should get the main receipt all the way around. And
we can say okay, paid.
Yeah. Well, and so the, the other aspect of that is sort of
where this is going is because because we're going to be sort
of a trusted like verifier of this stuff is there's probably
going to be another permission key level
level and API. So we will have to have a, a known relationship
with our, with the app with our app developers. Yeah, of course,
and they want it to because you know, oh, and as an addition.
And I'm just putting these rules in place. And we can always
argue about it later. But for the service, the index, we'll
add our node for 1%. And we'll add the app, the app that the
request is coming from for 1%. And just be I'm not ashamed to
say that that's the whole point. And if an app fa, which is also
key for the payment, so we need to know which apps the apps
themselves need to be able to feed that back to the podcaster.
Because we were talking to Tim and we're at Elon pay, we were
kind of bouncing ideas back and forth of how how can we make
this work? Because you know, the ecosystems open and all that
kind of stuff. But how can we make this where everything is
transparent, because we've said from day one that needs to get
paid, the you know, the podcaster needs to get paid. And
you know, everybody down the chain, wait, you know, we want
to get paid to all this stuff needs to happen. Everybody in
the chain needs to get paid. But really Ground Zero is the app,
the app, developers need to get paid if if pod kit if pocket
cast, integrated this, they wouldn't be going broke written
Exactly. Now, they also wouldn't need that many people believe it
or not, you need to hold to people to manage your venture
capital people.
But it's got to be transparent. And that's the deal. Like it
can't be it has to be transparent to where you know,
what's in the feed is one is one guy 111 woman who says I'm the
creator, I'm the host of the podcast, and here's my here's my
note ID that's what's in the XML. But then, at some point, in
the, perhaps the hosting company, perhaps a directory
like us, and for sure, for sure, the app, the those one, each one
of those is going to take 1% and so the that 1% though, that that
activity needs to be transparent, it can't be that
people are just silently sucking money out everywhere, that it
has to be known. And so that's what we're talking to Tim about.
And that that would be where this stuff kind of comes into
play where we're gonna say, okay, we're gonna hand the
splits back, but only to known apps. So like, what what that
would look like for somebody like, pot, you know, pot station
is you would just go in there and just like you would ask for
rewrite permission. You just go in there and ask for a you know,
some other thing I know it'd be called, but you asked for Or
some other permission level on your API value for value
payments, value payments, yeah, value payments. And then you ask
for that permission level. And then it just comes to us to, to
approve it. And we have to make sure you know, like, I get, we
get, I get tons of approval requests for read for write
permission API keys that I just throw in the trash, because I
have no idea who you are. It's just some random gmail address.
And I'm not in and if you, I just trash it. And then if you
come back to me and say, send me an email and say, Hey, here's,
here's what I'm doing. I would like to read write permission
key for from my app, and it's called this, then I'll say,
Yeah, absolutely. I'll put it right in. But I'm the same,
it'll be the same way with this. It'll be you asked for a
different permission level. And the key, if we ever known if we
know who you are, you're trusted all that kind of jazz. That gets
approved, you're good to go. And we
and along with this comes another piece that that podcast
index is doing for you that you don't know, people listening.
And we haven't seen but I know what's happening. In the
background, we have a third member of this team, Eric, and
he is doing all of this regulatory taxation. How do we
report keys working all these things? From a back office
perspective? He's doing it for us for the for the index, but
he's really doing it for everybody. And so that piece is,
you know, is also being worked on in real time, in a real time
manner. Like, okay, where are the pitfalls? How do you treat
this? So we're not just like cowboys? Yeah, we had a Chuck
Wagon back there. So it's a few miles back, but the Chuck Wagon
is coming up.
Yeah, Eric's been doing a ton of work on that, because this is
really a new paradigm. I mean, like, this is a new market. And
it's, I mean, he, he's had to do a lot of research to figure out
if what's Okay, and what's not. And that's going to be that is
going to be valuable to apps that choose to participate in
this so that we can also all have some level of protection.
Yeah, understand what agreements need to be in place. And it's
not, it's not crazy stuff. You know, what it's gonna be, you
know, ultimately, it's a box that says Terms of Service, a
lot of all caps and some small ones, you click OK. And then
we're all screwed. We all get sued by Amazon.
They the other part of a like, the, the biggest reason why this
is a is an issue is not for the guy who has $20 in a wallet,
it's that there's people out there that will put 10 grand in
a wallet, right? And that's a big deal. I mean, if I if I put,
you know, $10 in my, in some lightning wallet, and the
lightning wallet screws up in a lizard, I mean, it's okay, I'll
skip lunch one day, but I mean, there are going to be people who
send podcasts $20 a minute. Yeah, I mean, like, Yes.
Absolutely. And and and so, along with this comes education.
You've probably seen the stories crop up, it always happens when
Bitcoin has a rally, guy has $200 million worth of Bitcoin
lost the password. So yes, you do have responsibility, there is
no helpdesk for Bitcoin. So you need to learn and it's really
once you learn, it's quite simple. But even to this day,
I'm still like, Am I doing it right? Because I know that, you
know, it's not hard to do. But if you don't have some simple
backup things, which most people are bad at, then you could lose
money, but it's a great way to learn how to use it. And this
our same system will function in the architecture of tomorrow,
which is these virtual nodes, which will have a very much
safer proposition for someone putting more money on that.
Yeah, and it goes back to it. It's so exciting, because it
goes back to something that I mentioned before, where I need
to polish on her show, had interviewed that guy from Africa
who had been d platformed. Off YouTube and Twitter. I mean,
like, that's a perfect use case for this. It's It's perfect. I
mean, here's a guy from a third world country who is who can
make a podcast and make money. Yeah. And it's International.
It's diverse. It's all the things we want.
Yeah. It's really
facilitated by, by claim free money, or
value, whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, yeah.
And, and we're just, I mean, it's been such a, an exploratory
road that we've gone down to figure all this out and we've
hit many guards. corners, what? Oh, we might as well back out of
this one. That's not so good. Yeah, yeah, hit a lot of that.
But I am so excited. Because this will allow us to at least
test to the scale. Because the scale is really very different,
very different at doing it this way. Without the full node, so
we can really test a couple of, you know, bigger shows, get some
scale, but most most importantly, I think it will be
for many of the devs will be relatively easy to incorporate
this and really have the ability to spend more time on how do you
want to present this? And what what's your you? What's your UX,
UX? What's your user? What's your user experience? And you
all have different ideas. And I and I love all the different
user experience ideas across the board on how people do chapters,
I mean, it's not every I don't like everything, but who gives a
shit someone else does it perfect. That's good. That's
diversity, diversity in code is important too, in that manner,
just like
everything else. And just like everything else we're doing with
the namespace. And all this stuff, you know, with the
namespace is, it's just, it's open. If you if you don't want
to use podcast index, you don't have to, you can read the XML
directly. And you can just say, screw you guys. Yeah. And that's
fine. And it still works just like it always does. And that's
fine. But we're, that's the money issue has to be has to be
treated carefully. And so
what you need, you need some, right now, we still do need some
authority, because we just don't have supercomputers in our
pockets yet. Yeah, they're fast, but they can't index you. 1.5
million feeds and maintain everything. It's slow and
laborious. And I have no doubt the whole podcast index project
one day will fit on a USB stick. Yeah, why not?
Sure. Your 50 terabyte USB stick?
What do you hate? That's Jeez, that's so 2000 Dave Jones. My
petabyte stick is way beyond your terabytes thick,
petabyte stick show title. By the way, I have the perfect name
for your for your future dog.
Oh, whoa, okay. Yes, this is Tina and I are now officially
empty nesters. We have no kids even living in the state. And so
we're thinking about the dog.
Okay, are you ready? I'm ready. But that one's
so we got the only that is not the two dogs one is Paul Anka,
and the other is Buck Owens.
Yeah. BDB DVD. I mean,
a little robot on Buck Owens.
I know you're thinking of Buck Rogers. Oh, and country singer.
That's you know, I
like Buck Rogers better now. All of a sudden I don't know what's
wrong.
Oh, no buckle is the country singer from he'll, you
know, I grew up in Amsterdam, and we weren't I was smoking
weed. I wasn't watching heat off. Make it our own way. He
Hall.
He's the guy with the red white and blue guitar.
We'd never that's not my No, I didn't get that. It was just the
wrong age. I was growing up somewhere else with no
television or government controlled television.
And depressed now thought it was a beautiful name.
I'm sorry to disappoint. I don't I still like GOG. Everyone seems
like God
oggi that. No, no, no.
I think I'm sticking with dlg. That.
It reminds you too much of that. That lame. crypto coin that
everybody?
Dogecoin.
Yeah. Hey, speaking
of crypto coins?
Yeah. Yeah. Can
we thank a few few people for supporting the project before
the satoshis are really flowing?
Yeah, yeah. Let's do it.
This is a value for valid love. The whole show has been a lot
about value for value. You heard what it costs. There's real
money involved. Dave and I are not taking any salary, Nores,
Eric, we hope that we can get value in the future. But to get
it going to grease the machine. Everything does need to be keep
running. And I could see a future where we might have to
pre fund some some channels and liquidity things on the chain
level. There's a lot of things that we can do just the fact
that I've been able to offer in some cases, some of our I'll
call them loose, loosely named partners, like hey, do you need
us to chip in and help you with that? And the answer has been
no. But it's been very powerful to be able to say that. It's
very, very powerful. And even you know, I've asked other
people yeah, we'll pay you for this not I don't want any money.
That's your time, talent and treasure. That is the that is
what value for value is driven on if there's any value get out
of this show and out of the project. itself, podcast
index.org Please help us by going to podcast index.org. We
take the the COC bucks through PayPal, look for the big red
Donate button, but we have a lightning invoice system on
there, that all that needs to be upgraded. And hopefully one day
we can do away with it and we'll just be part of the value flow
that would be the ultimate way to go. And we love thanking
people who are participating in the project who are certainly
helping us with their treasure
that starts with Ben from our buddies@rss.com
just they donated not too long ago.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they Yeah, they they, they chipped in for
Christmas. For in New Year's. But they there? They gave us
$500
holy crap. Yeah, really? Hey,
Dave, and Adam. Thanks again for all your hard work from your
friends and admirers@rss.com. And we're gonna have them.
They're gonna be on the podcast with us. Two weeks from now. Oh,
excellent.
I look forward to it. Yeah, we
got.
What do they do? again@rss.com. So everybody knows.
podcast Host. Yeah. A podcast host. And they they've been
really contest. They sponsored us on pod news. managed and so
much. They're just, they just been great. And they also have
my favorite domain name. RSS doc. Yeah. I mean, holy crap.
Yeah.
Cool. I want to hear the story about how they got
Yes, yes. We can swap out some domain name stories. No doubt.
Yeah, we'll have we're gonna have blueberry. We're gonna have
Todd and Mike from blueberry on next week. And then we'll have
RSS have been banned on the week after that.
Wow. Don't we have David coming up from hyper catcher and some
other people?
Yeah, he'll be in the I think he's the David will be David
Norman is going to be on with us. I think the second week of
February. I have to
look. Firstly, nice. Nice. Nice. Nice.
The so thanks. Thanks, Ben. And gazzard RSS comm says, here's
this is a donation for an anonymous donation for $200. For
no credit is needed or wanted. just glad I can help.
Thank you very much anonymous
says and not just a thought. Well, he says just a thought
there's not need to be voiced on the show since it's a real
downer about gun voices anyway. It says does not need to be
voice. It doesn't mean it shall be voice.
Yes. The Constitutional reading of the note.
Yes. I am for total free speech. Free Speech says to me from a
summarized quote, I forgot who said it. I may disagree 100% of
what you say. But I will defend to death. Your right to say it
says parler is being de platformed from AWS hosting
company and apps removed from Apple and Android. How can you
stop this from happening to podcast index. Even if you were
to host in another country, the IP addresses can be blocked or
DNS entry can be taken over? Is this now a hopeless task to
achieve your mission and goal? Adam, I will take a stab at
that.
There's i don't know if i sent that to you today. But there's a
new domain naming protocol based on on blockchain that has come
out actually send it to void zero to mark because he's way
into that stuff DNS sec and all this. And he says Holy crap,
this could be very useful. So that usually means he's going to
dive in and give me a full report later.
But the
I hate to say it, it's that everyone has such a such passion
for building these spaces for people to you know, convene. But
ultimately, it does not matter what how good your intentions
are. And this is for us, too, by the way, how good your
intentions are, it has to decentralize, and it's just a
cycle. And I think with every cycle we're seeing more and more
where that has to go. And the companies can charge people
fairly real money, it can be little little bitty bits for the
experience they provide but I think the future will all be on
top of now. I hope it's lightning. It may be something
else. I mean, I'm again, not religion, religious about it,
but I'm putting my my eggs in that basket. All of these right
now today with I would say minimal work, really. group
chat, all of this can all be done. It's all there. It's just
you know, what are the choices you make and what is the
audience you're going after? If you're trying to build something
where you meet the business models don't work. None of them
do it. So you can't have advertising. It has to be some
part of network effect. And I just see no other way than the
truth, which is a blockchain. It has the truth of who said what,
when, where and how you connect it. I Am I boring now?
No, no advertising is censorship. It just goes back to
that same idea.
And also, if you have to pay something, especially if it's
really really small, the psychological effect makes you
much more efficient and what the hell you're doing. People won't
just vomit all the time with words
Thank you.
Thank you anonymous. Does that answer your question? anonymous?
All right, who's
next on the phone?
See, sir, sir Pete for $43.21 a good numerological is
that sir Pete snakes
is says it just says sir Pete Serpico i don't know
i think that's repeat from the Netherlands I
believe. Don't Okay.
Thanks, gents. Sir Pete here like Adam introduced me to the
term soundtrack of our lives. Oh, yeah.
This is sir Pete. He goes back.
Okay. I see so many applications of this giant leap podcasting is
making, among others what I like to call the narrative of my life
as Dave Adam, as Dave, Adam make me smarter. As Dave and Adam
make me smarter and excited about podcasting and nerding
out. Stephen Fry sues me with this art with his audio books.
The voices of devore and Horowitz, somehow are both the
cure for both a cure and entertainment in the financial
markets. Sure. My remark for makers would be considered the
usage of podcasts. To me listening to podcasts is about
getting fitter and smarter. listening to you brainiacs, and
moving about on bikes in parks, so no screen, no way to bookmark
my audio life and no way to stop and reward that golden insight.
Also, I wonder how can we make rewarding producers and makers
alike easy and still control listener expenditure? Patreon
doesn't work because it's too opaque. digital currency is
invisible. So who's making sure payments? payment doesn't feel
like a slot machine. But like appreciation for great products.
Anyway, excuse my random thoughts. Bottom line, love the
show and see a bright future for producers, makers, participants
and listeners alike. Keep it up now. Take my money.
Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah, let's do it. Sir. Pete, thank
you so much.
Yeah. Well, you
want an appropriate note?
Yeah, perfect. Exactly
what we're talking about.
Let's see. Yeah, this one's not enough. Yeah. Okay. This is Mike
Dell. Yeah. Mike Dell from blueberry. Blueberry. Nice.
Yeah, Mike's.
He's active on the mastodon. I see him popping in all the time.
Yeah, he gave us $20 a day, keeping podcasting free as in
free speech. He's going to get a lot more important in the next
couple of years. Go podcasting?
Oh, wow.
I wish you'd cued me and I should have had that lined up. I
should probably have this one in our
rotation here. Here. Let's
try it here. Here we go.
We need to defragment Mike to Oh, yes.
There you go. Mike. I thought he had donated before actually.
I don't think so. If he donated before then that's a
defragmenting for sarpy.
Oh, they Oh, well. masterpiece.
All the way back at the chain. Yeah. See appreciate is trying
to make sure is not anonymous. It's not. Okay. Raphael and
Agron say he's he gave us $19.84 sweet Ah, no, I appreciate the
ideas. This is interesting that I appreciate the ideas presented
with James Cridland about pot about policing podcasting. He
made it very clear that y'all are just about creating the
infrastructure for free speech with podcasting. 2.0. And that's
it. We're all adults here with God given free will. And we
truly believe that the best way to kill a bad idea is with a
better idea. Yep. Big Tex should have really stopped itself when
it decided to become the thought police and to protect us from
fallacies, racism and flat earthers. appreciate what y'all
are doing here. And I love the technical jargon even though I
barely know what is being talked about. 60 namespace Talk. Thank
you for all the hard work and entertainment keep conquering
the lane with the better. Hey, I
like these notes. This is good.
It's a good notes man. conquer the lane with the better. Thank
you for $19 and 84 Cs
very Machiavellian, you know, love that.
And our last day? Yep. Okay, he's good. Our last donation is
from Christopher Christopher Christopher battles. He says
podcasting. Thank you for your service. So more people have the
ability to hit others in the mouth. All right. That's our
that's a lot of man. That's a good note. Yeah, great
notes and super donations. Thank you all so much. And if we
missed anybody, or, you know, sometimes these recurring
donations come in, which are great for the server farm.
Really, it's a it's a server. It's a server vegetable garden,
I guess, really? Is it really a server farm?
Victory Garden,
hey, whatever happened to Farmville people still play
that,
man, all that crap. I was watching. I was rewatching. The
IT Crowd? Show. And we were I was going back and watching it.
And they were doing this, you know, their mock show on friend
face? And the take off of Facebook?
Oh, yes. Yes.
They were all into all the little games that you could play
all the I guess all the stuff went away. Is it
an irony? No idea?
I don't know. I
logged into Facebook and over a year,
years and years for me. Yeah.
I don't know if any of that?
No, that was a no, no time for that. So anything else? Well,
I'm very excited about about where we're at. And I guess my
question would be thinking as a very, very impatient man.
When it's new for you,
I know, right? When do you think we can have people start trying
this this payment system out? As in? When can developers do it?
Put it in?
Yeah, well, lm pays. You know, it's, it's just a service. You
can go you can go Yeah, but we
Yeah, but that's not ever gonna work. We need to present the
payments thing and yeah, and help people. We need a reference
implementation. What do we do? Yeah, this is your part of the
partnership. Dave, tell me what we're doing. When is it? Who's
on first?
Well, I've got I've got the I've worked out the postman stuff.
For the API examples. What
is what does that mean?
That postman is a popular API tool on your, on your desktop,
he's just held it, you can just do API calls with it and save
them. And it's a good way to, to test API calls and make sure
they work. And then you can package them and distribute
them. Okay. So that's why I was testing the API the other day,
and I've got a couple of PHP functions, and that I can use to
show you, for example, code. And so
yes, we need we need a flow, what someone's like a value
payment, integration for poets. Did you try your coffee there?
Yeah, most it almost came up my nose. But the so what I'd like
to do is write all this up. Yeah. In a white paper or
something. And then just like, anybody who's interested,
because there's some people, the other Swimmy podcast apps and
developers that are not there's gonna be podcast developers that
don't, they're not interested in this, they they're like that.
They don't have to, that's fine. You know, I'm not interested in
the money part. I don't want that. I don't want to deal with
that. And so that's fine. But if you are interested, then what I
think the best way to do it is just do like a zoom or something
like just do a new zoom call, and just kind of go over the way
it works. Because Do we have our side
ready with with a feeding back? So I guess the pieces that are
needed? is a, I presume a separate API permission level?
We talked about that? Yeah. And then we need to. So the apps
Well, they also need to have wallets, which is minor detail.
So we need to be able to complete some of the we have all
the pieces for handing back the split and being able to add in
the app ID as well. Yeah, yeah, that's
all there
is. I'm sorry, no one sent me the memo is someone
that's always that's always been there. That's best. That's the
default that change will be that we won't hand back the splits
unless you have the other permission level.
Right. And but when we have the way to hand back, the
appropriates splits and then I guess, as you already announced
the work on podcaster wallet, has to we got to do something
with that to make it easy for podcasters to get going because
basically they're just going to need a wallet and the splits,
right. They just need a place for it to go.
Yeah, which which will be lm pay, and I'll show everybody how
to use that
and that will leave from the get go be able to put in a different
note if they wish.
Do you mean a different news?
podcast or not? Not the listener the podcaster. So though, so
yeah, so I'm saying a fresh podcasts or shows up, I'm
jumping the gun a little. Okay, I want to get that I want I want
this for my podcast, go to podcast a wallet.com. Do you
have a wallet? No, you have one created. Click here to learn
more about getting your own node and the advantages, you know,
learn that on your own time.
Yeah, so the what the podcaster wallet site is it's a, it's a
dumpster fire, it's a pile of garbage, like it is, it's
something that we had to bake really quick in order to get
space. Yeah. But then thinks had this thinks had scalability
problems. So they couldn't fire up nodes, because the original
intent there was that you get a podcaster wallet, you would
verify your podcast, which is
what that process works, that part works.
Sometimes, sometimes it works. That's the other part, like
James Cridland had trouble because it's it? Well, that's a
whole different deal. It, I'm gonna make that better, I'm
gonna fix it. This, like I said, it was all half ass. So you, you
go, you go through there, and you just verify that you own the
feed. And then the idea was that you can either put in your own
node in that works, you put in your own node ID, right, or you
could click a link as things link, and it would fire up a
tribe for you, and then hand us back your new node ID, right.
And that would get straight into index, right? Because most,
because the the value, the value tag is not supported by the host
yet. So you got to be able to wait to get have a way to get it
in the index. Right. And, and by and by the way, this permission
level for the API. And that's open for anybody, you don't have
to be a podcast app. So if a podcast host wants to use that,
and that's fine, too, then they can get it, they just you just
set it would have to ask for a different key, just you know,
different key but a different, you'd have to ask to have your
permission, your API key upgraded. So that that's
available to anybody. But the that was the original intent,
but then the link broke because they couldn't scale because they
were not able to spin up nodes. And so you would click this
fixed links link and it would just mom, right. So it didn't
work. The whole idea didn't work. But so on the and then the
podcaster wallet.com thing is purely for if you are the owner
of a podcast, right, exactly. And so hopefully we're you know,
we're also working with granite voltage, we're gonna try to get
some.
Yeah, good podcast, podcast videos.
Yep. Yeah. So we just want to have a couple options for people
to be able to spin spin up nodes, if you're a podcast
owner, is then the Ellen pay that. So that's the podcaster.
side. Ellen pay side is for the podcast app. And that's for the
listener side. And then so anyway, this, this will
hopefully what I'm going to be doing over the next few weeks is
trying to get all this stuff pulled together. And, and I'll
just communicate with everybody on the mastodon instance on
like, I'll just give everybody updates and what I'm doing and,
and then at some point, I'll schedule, anybody who's
interested in any of the podcast app developers, y'all can all
just say, yeah, hey, I'm interested in we'll just do a
big group, like zoom call, and I'll just kind of run through
everything and show how the flow works. Oh,
my God, I'm tingling.
I love this.
You run it down your leg? Yes,
yes. I'm
Joe Biden.
No rats running up your leg down.
As two different ladies. That's your
political humor for the show this week. All right.
that I think will happen.
So that's that's all I got. I'm, I'm super pumped. I cannot wait.
I cannot wait. I'm so excited about this. Yeah.
I'm just, I'm pumped to because I'm, I just think this if people
can get paid. It just changes the whole if people can get paid
without advertising, it just changes the whole game.
And yes, it does. And the idea that, and this is why I've
always tried to stick to that one minute, you know, payment
per minute. When you're looking at your wallet and you just see
these, you know, literals fractions of a penny. It doesn't
matter. You see it come in. It's like, Oh my god, someone's
valuing this. Yeah. This is how they're valuing. And, you know,
and especially on like, in Spinks chat, I get half of this
and I see payments come through, like, oh, seven SATs, and it's
like 20 SATs sometimes and that boosts the boosts are Whoa,
that's bank right there. Yeah. The more I say the more the more
features you can build that let people boost which is you know,
can be a it could be 10,000 SATs at one time and people do all
kinds of stuff. You have no idea how they are someone else value
stuff. That's money in the bank for everybody. Oh, yeah, there's
crazy town when you see that happen. It's like, wow, whoever
just got $1 like, hey,
transistor. Oh, you know transistor? Oh
3333
Yeah, that guy's dropping 30,000 cents in the time like, boom,
boom, boom.
Yeah. Which is what 30,000 SATs is 10 bucks?
Yeah. I mean, like, man, he'll do he'll just hit it. He'll
have three four times. I know.
Yeah. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying a while
ago. I mean, there's gonna be people that are gonna drop big,
big money into into their wallets, because they, they have
the money. And they want to support you. Yes,
yes. And this benefit when they are supporting everything. I'm
supporting the whole, I'm supporting the app, the index,
maybe the host. I'm supporting this. Oh, yeah, it's great.
Is it wrong to think that? Is it? I'm not trying to say this.
I just don't think that a pod caster should get paid. Without
the app getting something? Absolutely. I just it's like,
it's our mission. It's it's the we we put the rules of the road
in place. We get to determine we're building the road, we get
to determine it. If people want to build another road, okay.
might be better. We'll see. They have to be linked together.
Otherwise, otherwise, every
everybody goes away. Yeah, I think I think the one thing I
can I did back to the beginning of the show, President Trump has
shown people intentionally or not a lot of how the value
proposition works. So many people now understand. If you're
if it's for free, then you are the product. I think this is now
regular parlance. People say this and the same. But now
they're seeing the downside to that. And I'm very happy I'm I
think really, it's been a beautiful period for us. It's
like, oh, my goodness, look, could you see it now? People do
see where the answers are and aren't. Yeah, and and people you
know, they go I'm going to signal Oh, that's not the answer
either. So eventually, they'll come in. And once we have
lightning network, running through some apps, then all the
questions will be answered. How do we do a centralized chat? How
do we do community chapters all these questions will be
answered. And it's not in the it's not a left right thing
because we only remember back we have short memories, but
remember back in the 60s when everybody was protesting
Vietnam, oh, and the and the right was trying to shut
the left down. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. And and Matt Taibbi has a fantastic set of articles
right now called meet the censored Yes. He's chronicling
people on the left that are being d platformed. And other
guys, just go ahead.
No, please.
No, I was just saying just like for every Alex Jones, there's
some buddy who is a who is in the anti Israel Israeli
occupation movement. Who's equally getting silenced. Yeah.
So it's,
it's, I'm full of passion for this. I really am. Alright,
Dave. Is everything done yet? So it working No, but
it'll be okay baby. I love
doing this with you. Dave Jones, we have we have been preparing
for this for 10 years. Yes, we have admitted This is we knew we
knew one day we do something that meaning for more than just
us.
Yeah. When one day, it feels good to have something that
works. That you don't have to spend 45 minutes explaining to
somebody how to install it.
That is a nice feeling. All right, buddy. You have yourself
a great weekend. Man. We're doing a What do you want to call
tomorrow? Right? Yeah, well, we'll get on the time that's,
that's our actual quarterly meeting. That's all hush hush
and secret. We don't talk about that.
That's it everybody. Enjoy your weekend. Can't wait to get some
sides flowing and value sliders. We'll see you next week right
here on podcasting.
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