Unknown: podcasting 2.0 for January 22 2021, Episode 21
Hooray for Hollywood make up the titles before we start the show
it's
Friday afternoon time once again for a board meeting of
podcasting 2.0 podcast index.org what is going on with the future
of podcasting where we ask your the players you know every
single company should do one of these. Forget quarterly reports
just do a podcast. I'm Adam Curry in Austin, Texas now the
man who can memorize more transactions than the mempool
ladies and gentlemen Dave Jones.
That's to Bitcoin nerdy man
now I'm going full on man, maximalist your
Bitcoin maximalist?
Yes, I am. And I dove into the mempool last night trying to
understand what was going on, like, holy crap.
Yeah, I was wondering, are you excited about, you know, venger
bitcoins twice. That's an ocean now.
It's in. Interestingly, that's exactly what I was doing
yesterday, not double spending, but trying to replace the long
story. But that double spin story is kind of fun.
It's not Oh, it's sketchy. Yeah, that's the I dove into it last
night to figure it out. And it was like, Oh, well, that makes
sense. It was just a it's just a normal, normal bailout to a new
chain.
I mean, it's kind of a feature of the whole system. So if you
want to call that a double spend? Yeah. Yeah.
No, no, it was it was an added I guess it was just just part of
the normal Fudd that's going on right now.
Oh, you mean the fraud like Janet Yellen saying that?
cryptocurrency is only used for illicit purposes like
podcasting.
Janet, Janet, have you? Have you checked the US dollar lately?
Last time I checked, it was used for a lot of illicit things.
Yeah, I think I can pull any random dollar out of my pocket.
And you probably have traces of something on it. My traces but
in general. Whoo. All right. How you doing, man? Pretty good.
It's a pretty intense week of at the day job, but I'm hanging in
there to Friday. I'm just glad so glad that it's Friday. Yeah,
no, I hear you that it's my favorite. It's really is my
favorite day of the week. I chill out a little bit in the
morning resting from a hard day's work on Thursday, which
is, in fact true. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, yeah, I get to
talk about what we've been doing. What have we been doing?
I don't know. I have to ask Dave on the show.
I'll tell I'll tell you what we're always supposed to be you
know, have been doing. Okay. I know how to get I get this
though. Yeah, we're talking about the New York Times
Caliphate show last week. Yeah. So it dawned on me, I was
thinking I kept bothering me that that that show has not been
d platformed. Yet, when it's totally fake. I mean, everything
about it is a lie.
Why would it have to be de platformed?
Well, it's what I'm saying. It's just
it's just a lie. I don't we have lots of lies in the database.
That's true. But the canceled culture perspective. You mean?
Yeah. Yeah, it hasn't been canceled yet. Complete ly.
You can't cancel because it's the New York Times and it's the
daily production team.
I've got a simple app figured out the ad hit me when I looked
at the list the list of episodes. There's like 12
episodes. Yeah. And then there's one bonus bonus episode that
they posted after they discovered that it was fraud.
And it was just like a little bit of a Mia culpa. like a like
a short Mia culpa episode. So that that's like the key to not
get
Oh, you do a little We're sorry.
Yeah, usually about once every dozen episodes, you just say By
the way, this is all not true. And then you just go right back
to what you're doing. It's just like, it's a little secret
sauce.
You see, I see that completely differently. I've looked at this
and think that's a great format come up with completely made up
stories. That sound absolutely real. That's perfect. I mean,
they do it on television every day
in our art bill made a career out of it for 30 years in radio.
Yeah, so that that sounds like if I had time I'd probably put
something fun together and I'm I you know, I like doing live
podcasts but I am not averse to you know, a huge sound design
project. That'd be fun. HG Wells war the world and that's the
first thing that hit me is oh my gosh, that's exactly what this
is. Only and the beauty of of War of the Worlds was they kept
broadcasting that it was not real and people didn't believe
it's real. Or they didn't hear it or you know, whatever.
selective hearing selective memory.
Wow, that's a lot like that's a lot like the media now.
Yes. just changed at all. Other than you know, podcasting having
a crosshairs on his back. Thanks to which I could not be more
delighted about.
Yeah, that that's just like the that's what I keep insert. You
can insert that everywhere you can just say when when their
headline headline reads, you know, loophole allows
misinformation, parentheses like Caliphate and parentheses to
continue.
Yeah put that anywhere. Yeah. No food for thought. Yeah. So what
have we been working on this week over I mean, there's been a
lot of things flowing back and forth and some of those I'm
going to bring up with our guest today we have two prominent
figures from the podcasting. I'm gonna say the podcasting space
that has got to be in the has no need no one of our
one of our guests like that like that word. So really, yeah. So
I'm just adapting I'm code signaling. Base man the space.
Let me see, of course, there's some IP Fs talk. We'll talk
about that later. I also have some things about some of the
first phase of the namespace. What else what else has been
going on? The couple I thought there was one or two discussions
on podcast index social.
Yes, some people are starting to look into and play with the
Ellen pay. Yes, yeah, yes. Yeah.
And I saw, I'm so happy this morning, I woke up. And the
first thing I check, because I want to be happy first thing in
the morning, is I check podcast index on social. And there's
Martin You know, I've been on a pod friend kick. It's just it's,
it's really functional for me, especially on graphene OS. And
now he's like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna do like, oh, man, I can't
wait. Let me break it. Please. Give me code. Let me try and
break it for you, Martin. I love that. It's coming. I'm getting
old and I got pod station up and working. Which, which works with
the with the node.
I couldn't figure out the macaroon thing. Head. How did
you get your SS? It has to be hex encoded? Yeah, downloaded my
macaroon from voltage? Yeah, it's in just a binary format.
And, like, how did you get yours out of there?
You've got if you go to I think it's manual connect on voltage
and your voltage node. It has a hex, it has a hex value.
Oh, for the LLC for LLC a lot. Yeah. All right, I'll do that.
And once you have tried to play with it,
it was phenomenal. And then this is where I got into meaningful
stuff. So I set up I've like all set up a little test wallet just
for you know, for my purposes over at voltage, and I chose a
light node, Oh, my God. And Graeme, I've been working on
this for 48 hours, this thing came up all spotty. And of
course, you know, by already transferred not much, but like
1520 bucks to it from from my own wallet. But because it never
came up properly, it had to shut down and then it came back up
again. And then it had to synchronize and it was confused.
And then here's the here's the funny part. Since I've done
those transfers, and try to open a channel at a different date a
different time, the fee structure was really, really low
at that particular moment. So when this node came back up, and
the verification process started, you know, my payments,
were still sitting there at a very low fee, so they weren't
being picked up. And they weren't being transferred. And
I've been waiting, like 17 hours for a channel to open. It's
trying to go to two sets per v byte or something. It's I'm
learning this stuff like wow,
it's this is so genius the way it was put together. So you
You're the transaction that you initially funded the node with
your, your, your chain transaction. Yeah, exactly. And,
and this is where I learned the RBF. So you can replace your
bid, because it's just sitting in your own little mempool
space.
Oh, I think it resting bitchface I thought this week,
that's what it should be called. Because that's the look I have
while trying to figure this out.
Okay, that's funny. I
think I didn't make that connection myself.
That's replaced replaced by fee. Yeah, at least by fee or
something like that. Yeah.
So and then you just you you do the exact same amount of
satoshis. And then the higher fee and it repentant. And it
replaces it essentially. Although, and that's what that
story was about the fudge story that it now you had basically
two payments waiting to go and it picked up the one with a
lower fee. And I don't know this story was convoluted, but I've
heard I was listening to I think Tales from the Crypt and then
Marty Marty held my hand. I understood it after that.
Anyway, okay, so that's it now that's hot Bitcoin. Lightning ln
ditto. Just be lm D and L n d love. Ellen.
Ellen, do
you hear on podcasting? 2.0 Yeah.
Yeah, I think what did you get it ever sorted Did you get that
finished?
The light node? Well, so then I was trying to bump the channel
up. And I wasn't having a lot of success because I have to do
that with lm ci from my own node. And I was able to connect,
but I'm, you know, it's all JSON that's being returned. So my
eyes are going.
Yeah.
So now I haven't figured out but you know, it's been just working
with Graham. And it's been fun because I'm learning about how
this stuff works. And I'm learning Moreover, because I'll
be setting up a node for Max Keiser, and Stacy Herbert, who
were all jacked. And you know, once, once we get our first
scalable app integration, they want to they want to start
trying it. And there's a lot of Bitcoin people who will jump on
that boat, man, I'll tell you, orange pill, orange pill
podcast. Yeah. Okay. I've
never heard it. But I know, I know, it exists.
Well, they have to have one during the week where they're
just kind of jamming together. And, you know, kind of, it's
kind of like a drunk party. If you know, Maximus days is pretty
funny. But then the other one, which I think is on Sundays,
they have guests on, and it's it's highly philosophy, you
know, philosophy, it's a high philosophy type conversation,
the philosophical. Yes, thank you. Thank you couldn't get it
out. So that's how highly philosophical I am. But it's
good. Yes, interesting people and they talk about really the
whole concept of Bitcoin and the freedom it provides versus the
existing system. It's fascinating that this movement
is so interesting to me, I'm, I'm happy to be swept up and
delirious as I am. And I did a I did a Bitcoin presentation at
work.
And Eric said he, Eric, the shell said he saw did you send
me that video video on slides? If you do on that?
No, I don't think I sent it to you. It's good. It had some
proprietary stuff from our company in it. But I'll but I'll
send it to you privately. Yeah. Yeah. But the so we were talking
about it. And I was just explaining how everything
worked. And part of what came up in the in the presentation was
the all the institutional investors that are getting in
now like, mass mutual bollock. 100 million in real estate like
mutual I didn't even know that part.
Yeah, they bought they bought 100 million in Bitcoin. And
there's there's a lot of institutional investment now
going into it. So it's gonna be really hard to shut it
down that bad. Yeah, the genies out of the bottle. bitcoins just
suck when you suck in the institutional. It gets really
interesting. And then we get we'll get a What does that? What
is that kind of tradable fund and ETF ETF? That's what I'm
thinking of? Yeah. Yeah, with ETFs. That's what everyone I
think has been waiting for. I don't know much about that. I
don't either. But that's that's all I know, is all I know is we
can send little little bits of money and value from one person
to the other in a seamless fashion in a timed fashion. So
yeah, so there was that? Yeah. What else was there?
Well, there's been I mean, we've talked a lot. We talked some
about, yeah, we talked about some namespace stuff. And just
and there was another discussion going on about the sort of
trying to come up with a universal link structure.
Yeah. Explain that. Thanks. Thank you for bringing that up.
I saw that. I tried to focus on it my eyes glazed over what
exactly? Is it? And what is the benefit, which I think someone
asked, you know, why are we doing this?
Well, there's two, you could look at it two ways, you could
say there's a sort of a universal link that would just
say somehow to trigger whatever your default podcast player is
on your, on your device. But then the other type of thing,
then what was really the focus was how to have a universal link
structure for how to address a particular episode and
timestamp. So that you can say whether or not it's pod, pod
friend pod station,
you can just do question mark equals and then number of
seconds. Ah, so I like the idea of the universal link structure
for so that it'll open up your your app will know what to do
with it.
Right? And that that would require OS support. Which I'm
not aware of any OSS that support it, maybe somebody else
knows but I don't that don't think that exists yet. He said
something like, you know, podcast, colon slash slash,
whatever the you know, hyper catcher, slash,
blah, blah, right, right. So something like that. What does
that mean that every host has to now name their fod like that
would be a hosting company thing.
Now that would just be a link it would just be a link recognition
inside that So there's no like a protocol scheme missing
registering a new protocol.
I see I see
it, there's that there's that side of it, which is
interesting. And then the, you know, just the other side of
trying to figure out how to interrupt between between apps.
So I could pod vert, you know, if pod verse has their shareable
link structure, and then it's like, each one has their own
scheme, if you could just sort of universalize that. It may
make interrupt easier between apps.
You need buy in from the two platforms?
Yeah, on both areas you need buy in, right? Yeah. And it's just
kind of just one of those sort of tangential things not really,
index or namespace related, but just more so like, Hey, this is
a prop. This is a problem that's kind of universal to everybody.
And can we bake a solution for it?
So how do you propose that to the OS? So I presume it's Apple,
Google and Windows Microsoft?
Yeah, that would be your three. Yeah.
How'd you actually pose that?
I think you just somehow, you know, expressed the need.
Oh, you mean like it like a namespace for podcasting? Okay,
sounds sounds like that. Just okay. We have a need for this
not gonna do shit for?
Well, moving on. Next up? I don't know, I had no idea. I
mean, I have no clue. Well, I mean, on ipfs, supported to cut
how many years to get to get an ipfs protocol handler to be
recognized by chrome or chrome. It's not even in there. It's not
even it doesn't function yet. But it's in chromium. And that
brave Finally, sort of activated it.
on there? Well, I think there's a number of reasons for this.
Certainly, why certain companies who, who benefit from selling
services are apprehensive about that. And maybe this is a good
time to bring in our guests. It won't be the first question,
I'll pop at them. But it certainly should come up. These
are two guys who have been a part of podcasting for a very
long time since the beginning. I remember him. I remember, have
supported podcast index and podcasting. 2.0 nice guys all
round and have just, yeah, just been certainly a part of my life
tendentially throughout the podcasting, and in the
podcasting space, for the past 16 years. Please welcome from
blueberry podcasting. its founder, Todd Cochran, and
Customer Support Manager, Mike Dell. And let me unmute both of
these guys.
So guys,
in the morning, I do in the morning to you, Todd.
Thanks for having us on your board meeting. This is awesome.
Well, we love having guests at the board meeting.
It's now a bunch of old guys and me.
Please, damn, shut up.
You know what? It's true?
Well, sadly, it is. You're my age, aren't you? Todd? You're
about same age. Yeah, same age. And I'm a
little younger than you guys. So you're 55? I'm just gonna say,
yeah, we're all up there. Maybe we should just start a little
bit with the with the history of blueberry. It's been around for
a long time. It's a staple. I mean, I would say, if you ask
anybody. You know, there's a couple names that come to mind
about podcasting host podcast hosting companies, and
blueberries always there. Probably also, I think the name
has always been intriguing, as irritating as I find it to have
to add that to every dictionary on every device I've ever owned.
Tell me feel the pain.
Tell me about the name. Todd. I don't know if we even know this.
This, this the reason behind this?
Well, you know, the history of the company really started when
I had gotten an ad deal with GoDaddy. And they asked did I
know any other podcasters that wanted to advertise in podcasts?
I said, Well, I need help. So I formed a business. Basically,
the people that formed the company with me came from my
audience. So I basically I need a lawyer. I need a Biz Dev, I
need a guy. And I found those guys on on the show. And we
started the company together and the company's actual name is raw
voice, but no one knows that.
Oh, yeah. I didn't know that. Of course. Yeah.
my paycheck. Mike's paycheck says raw voice on it. But really
what happened was is we launched part of our first initiative. We
launched a site called podcaster news. And it was basically
trying to be like, short snippets of podcasts from me.
Yeah, I remember. And that was, you know, that was one of those
spitballs sheets or on the wall. That didn't work. Well, what
year was that? That was oh five
Okay, and now, I remember you wrote a book, maybe two books.
Did. Could I cooperate on that that I talked to you?
You did provided me because I went out yesterday.
I remember in the beginning, so at a certain point, everybody
was calling me about a book. Yeah. And I think I said no to
almost everybody. And they want four words and like, I'm not
interested. And I got other things to do. I really
appreciate it. But just go do your book. The stories is well
known. Did we talk in person on the phone or email?
I email? So I am. Yeah, we get some emails back and forth.
Well, we might as well dive into this right now. Because I don't
know what you children are doing. But you're you're making
a mess of my podcasting. 2.0. With you're looking backwards
crap. Let's settle this once. And for all, what's going on?
podcasting is 20 years old.
Yeah.
I think the concepts go back pro late 2000. And then, you know,
the conversation you had with Dave, so the other the other
day. All right.
So the controversy here, since I think I want to go too deep into
it. But the controversy is that pod news published kind of a
republish of I think it was Dave Weiner's blog post about the
history of podcasting. And which, which the the, the
history of the Genesis goat? Well, I mean, technically, you
could say goes back to the invention of TCP IP, which is
what a lot of people do when it comes to the history of
something. But it does go back to 2000. Based upon a concept
that I had. So pod news, did I thought it was more like tongue
in cheek, you know, like, hey, it's actually 20 years of
podcasting. Congratulations. And, and, you know, when you're
when you're dealing in text, and people are publishing articles,
and you can read it with whatever intonation you want.
And I thought, and most of it was kind of in jest, but did you
take offense to that? Because you wrote the history of
podcasting, you wrote the book, did you find that that was, what
was your you push back on him, I would say,
the only thing I push back on was my definition of when
podcasting truly started, is when you had a desktop, and you
know all about this desktop software application, which
would read an RSS feed with an enclosure, automatically
download that media and sync it to a media device, and all the
creators and people that came in this space, as a result of that,
that's where I kind of drew the line is the basic start of
podcasting. But we know it and I haven't acknowledged and I give
full credit to Dave and you and everyone else that that the
idea. And the enclosure tag discussion happened 2000 2001.
And what's new, and what was new of this morning is there was
some inclination made that Dave had made a pod catcher back in
2001. And I'm thinking, this is news to me. Now, I know he had
done stuff in user land and included it there and did some
test stuff that I'd never heard that he built a pod Catcher in
2001. You know, the iPod came late 2001. And there was really
nothing else now I'll give you I'll give you this story.
All right. Last time, I'm gonna do it later. And we're all gonna
stop.
Sounds good.
In 2000, I was in Amsterdam. And this part of the story is
important. At the same time, it's kind of funny because this
part of the story is completely obsolete. The whole idea behind
this, this subscription podcast, or the subscription content
delivery is obsolete. But this is this is how it came to be. I
had a cable modem in in Amsterdam, which meant we had
always on computing that was being sold as such, you didn't
have great bandwidth, but yet always on computing, so you
didn't have to dial in with your modem. And there was no
experience for video, we had QuickTime video, but just a
short little, we didn't really have great codecs. And before
you knew it, a video of a couple minutes could be 100 megabytes.
And that would take you know that could take five or 10
minutes or even longer to download. So any and I was only
looking at video, although Napster had my attention that
came up around the same time, which was also an artifact of
always on computing. So it was it wasn't a spiffy slick, fast
system. But people's computers were on so easy to initiate
downloads of content that you wanted. So but even then,
there's no experience We had real audio real video, which
was, you know, very questionable quality. And you had to license
it. And you couldn't just start up. And I considered that I
wrote an essay about this called the last yard. And the idea was
you had something running on your computer, which was now
always on by default, that would be looking for a piece of
content that you want media. And because you're, you're asking it
to pay attention to it, which would be a subscription. And if
it sees it, it would download it, and it would not notify you
the user until it was downloaded. So therefore, you
remove the entire weight, you don't know what's happening. So
it doesn't really matter. When you watch the news, you're
watching video from earlier in the day or five weeks ago, it
doesn't really matter when it was, when it was produced. It's
the moment when it's presented. And so I, Dave had radio user
land, which I was interested in, because I'm a very bad
developer, I can't even be call myself. That's how bad I am.
And, and he has proprietary scripting language, I was trying
to figure that out. But I knew that this could be built somehow
with something like this. And I tried to explain it to him. I
don't think he appreciated me in general, you know, like some a
whole Hollywood guy, you know, what is he doing here trying to
tell me what to do. I went back the next day, I flew to New York
specifically for this. And Dave, the next day, he thought about
it, I explained it again, I had done a little mock up in his
application Radio userland to show how it would work. And he
said, Okay, I get it. I'm gonna put this in. And I'll show you
how, but I only do it if you promise to never, ever touch my
software again. So okay, not not too hard.
When we add in the timeline, now, this is 2000. I'm still
in New York. And he had, he was at that moment, a radio user
land use use RSS or ODOT. Nine to I guess, just for an end user
land, it was called radio user land, which appealed to me,
because you could broadcast and receive it was a transceiver. So
you could create a feed, and had a whole aggregator structure,
exactly like a podcast pod catcher. On the back end, you
could subscribe, you could unsubscribe, you could do a
river, you could do all you could segregate by, by
individual feed all of that. And just it worked as a desktop app
with a little server on your, on your machine and just talked to
the local hosts on 5335 or something. So when that was
implemented, that's when RSS 2.0 came to life. And with the
enclosure tag, and we were sending, you know, I was
subscribed to his feed, he was subscribed to mine for years.
And I wake up and there'd be a video file from something in New
York. Now, to say, That's not a pod catcher. We didn't have the
pod, the iPod, we didn't have the name. But what we had is
more of a movement. So even to say that anyone is any one
individual is responsible. Is this kind of bogus, I think in
technology in general, because you can go back, you know, well,
I used to do cassettes and put them online, and I had an email
and it's all a lot more of the same basic system, is
podcasting, really that much different than an inbox the way
it's presented today. And so that's when the daily source
code came out, because I needed to find developers who would
create these dedicated applications called pod
catchers. But that was three years later. Yeah, that wasn't
until I saw my first iPod. And that's when the apple script
came to life. That just replicated what Radio userland
was doing with an extra trick, which is you download it and
then you trigger these downloaded to iTunes and you
triggered an update to the iPod. And of course, I could make that
scale. It was just a script that would you know, run and, and
look at one feed. And so that's, that's when I was like, Oh,
shit, well, I had this feed. Let me get out there and start
talking about it. And I had a blog, which was pretty new at
the time. So and that that's really how we built it.
So the lag why the lag between the time that you thought
because
I had to why I hadn't I hadn't seen the iPod when I saw the
iPod, the light when the iPod had been around for a couple
years. The light went off. I'm like, Oh, hold on a second radio
receiver. That's that's what triggered it for me. Now,
specifically about podcasting. I disagree with pretty much
everybody. I feel that a podcast does not have to be a show. It
does not have to be what we're doing here. I feel a university
professor who is puts his lectures on a feed that's a
podcast and I'm a little perturbed by And I think you
don't even agree with me. But I think a podcast doesn't have to
be a show. It can be really something functional. It can be
a book, it could be an album, it can be so many different things.
We're stuck in a rut. With that with the terminology.
Our plugin supports audio PDF video, because we know that the
enclosure can be anything.
Correct? Correct. So the so the, the issue is, you know, that I
think the term podcasting is what throws everybody off
because the act of what people understand podcasting to be not
the technical system, the act of what people mean. So you could,
you could arguably say, because Dave, was putting this one local
public radio show onto his, onto a feed with enclosures. And he
was doing this before there was an iPod. So also not a podcast.
You know, it was a radio show, put in a feed with enclosures
does not get credited as the first podcast because there was
no iPod. So it's really semantics as to what when it was
invented, when it when it happened. What I take credit for
is coming up with the idea of the subscription with a delay.
And at the time, it was necessary, because we didn't
have the bandwidth. Now, it really only functions. Thank
goodness, as an open protocol for people to organize podcast
and I'm and that has turned out to be a very, very valuable
tool.
Well, happy then to the 21st year in podcasting.
So no, to me worse,
it's worse than it appears. Yeah,
there's there's no date. You know, that's what I'm saying.
There's no right. And, to me, podcasting 2.0 we know when that
started,
right. I consider it a badge of honor to be chastised. But
they've learned how to not use this software or how to not
program yourself
or it was the start of an interesting relationship.
I don't know if there's actually a great agreed upon definition
of podcast and no,
there is not there is not like and that and that's my beef is
like I and part of my it's not in our mission statement, which
is preserved podcasting as platform for free speech and
retool podcasting as a platform of value for all. But when you
start a podcast to date, you still are not really official,
and you're not a podcast until Apple has approved you. And that
part I didn't ever really focused on. But now it just
really pisses me off. Anybody should be able to build a feed
right now have it in all apps in 10 minutes. That's the way it
should be. And that means that it can be Why isn't it a
reporter? A reporter who does uploading little bits, you know
that everybody can, can can you know, it's very easy. It's very
efficient system like, Okay, I got a new feed, boom, here we
go. here's, here's my interviews that coming down the pipe and
just publish them that way.
Blueberry, blueberry has a directory. And What do y'all
consider? Like, how do y'all get your feeds? Or how do you vet
them and say, Okay, this is something we will put in the
directory. They're in, let me give you more detail on what I'm
saying. Because we what I constantly trying to find this,
there's this continuum between what you would call a podcast
feed, and what's just plain RSS. And so is it a podcast feed if
an enclosure only shows up once every 75 posts? Or is it? I
mean, like, I, I'm not
sure when as long as enclosures in the we don't up because we're
doing a podcast directory, we only show the posts that contain
an enclosure. But yeah, it could be 75 in between 75 posts, and
we will still update
as long as the closure.
This is the thing that I'm so sad about is that we have this
beautiful system, everything's in place. It's a beautiful API.
Anybody can create an app that talks to this. I mean, even if I
really set my mind to it, I'm sure I could steal enough
frameworks and codes to get something working. But everyone
is stuck in the same show mentality. Where is my
university lecture app?
Let's say that I don't have a problem like that's fine.
Nobody. No one
does it. No one does it. It we're still working in the words
of and for obvious reasons of broadcasting. I have a show.
There's so much opportunity out there. It doesn't have to be
everything the apps the way the hosting companies function. It's
all built around the concept the words that you see are making
you build a an entertainment or information show not
necessarily. An information feed with items in there that can be
destroyed. Did this way
does that make sense? Yeah. But Adam, just so you know, we do we
do update if someone's got a PDF, it's not, we follow the
letter of the law, but
you're missing my point. It's the interface that you use to
create the tools. The interface you use to, to listen to
podcasts is geared towards a Joe Rogan NPR show type of model.
And that's what it's portraying. It's never I mean, okay, we'll
take your PDF example, there could be an app that uses all
the functionality of podcasting, that only displays and has
searchable. Or let's say it has feeds of medical studies that
are PDFs. Because no one builds an app for it. No one thinks of
it. So the content is never created, where it's such a
beautiful kancil culture proof system.
Right? They feed readers back in the day for blogs, it's the same
sort of idea except for you're using an enclosure rather than
just the text of the RSS.
Exactly. And that was killed off by Google. Why? Well, obviously,
they have they want to own your feed, everything is a feed these
days, Twitter or Facebook, everything's a feed.
When we tell people that they can put other other things
besides audio in their feeds, they're blown away. Most people
don't know. You know, they don't even know they can do video
podcasts, you know, and I can get that,
too. This is another one for me. It's like, holy crap. Everyone's
app will do almost everyone's app does video. But do you know
how many people are coming to me saying I wouldn't be able to do
video? Like it works right now. Yeah, but that's podcast. So the
words are important. If you want to have a have a video site, you
got to build it with the YouTube rumble Vimeo type language. And
well, there's
apps out there, you know, a lot of these new, newer commercial
podcast apps don't do video,
right? Well, oh, my goodness, there's an even better reason to
do it. What the heck people? And we're streaming a web app easy.
He said, with his developer hat on.
And then and then I'll throw the business owner hat on when I
tell them that's probably going to cost them more, because
that's true bandwidth, you know, hardly use it. Was it true? Now,
I know you got a solution for that. But you know, there is
there is a cost, you know, because of that bandwidth. No,
you walked into my trap. That's
not ideal solutions, you walked into it. So ipfs, the
interplanetary file system, this thing has been in my life. I
think for eight years, we've had Dave and I've been playing with
it way before podcast index. And we've seen it work, we
understand how it works. Now we had a some it came back on the
radar, even though it's been discussed at podcast index dot
social for a while came back on the radar with the brave
integration of ipfs. So you can just use the ipfs hash, and it
will find the file. So ipfs has not never really picked up in
the mainstream. And and I think it's for business reasons, I'm
not sure. But when I look at ipfs, and think, wow, what can
we do with the hosting companies to either a, lower your cost by
distributing the load. B gives you more things that you can
offer your customers or see both? Because it feels to me
like it's possible. And I wonder if you've looked at the use case
and what you've come up with, from your standpoint,
I just brought the website up. And I'll be honest with anything
that will allow me to not have to pay my bandwidth bill via a
bank transfer versus a credit card gets my attention. So you
know, but if we also think about IP Fs, I'm going to investigate
it. I have I don't know anything about it until now. But Adam, we
used to do our podcast situation via BitTorrent too.
And I still have a bit torrents of my shows published and and
this comes down to my next question, which is really
something I've seen being brought up for over a decade.
And I've never seen a resolution are understood. And I don't know
if it's just something someone needs to kick it over and do it.
How do we handle the concept of multiple enclosures? If I Yeah,
well, this this is the big question. And I and maybe I can
be maybe I can be an arbiter somehow. But why, why is this
not universally done? It's hard. It's hard.
It's hard for the it's hard for the app. I think I have an
answer to that. Because like, okay, for instance, when we
wrote the freedom controller, I, I gave it support from the very
beginning for multiple enclosures, even though I think
Weiner said it's not, I think he's always said that that was
not part of the spec. And
he's always said namespace.
Yeah. And so but but I read the spec over and over again, and I
just couldn't see where it didn't allow it in the language.
So I said, well, we'll support enclosure, multiple enclosures
on the on the aggregator side, and then we'll also support it
on the production side. And for for just a river of news, it
works fine. But on a podcast app, it gets, it can get a
little wonky. And I think people just not sure how to handle
well.
What am I getting a lot of the pod catchers is if you have
multiple enclosures, some of them will pick the first one,
some of them will pick the second one or the last one.
That's never you can never know know what, you know, the app
itself is going to pull.
And when we when we say that, Mike, do you really mean you
don't know what Apple's App is going to do?
Well, it could be, you know, apple, or whatever Apple is,
does the first one, I think cuz there's multiples. But yeah, I
get that all the time. You know, people have these feeds they
create, and they have, you know, an mp3 file and a photo and
something else in it. And it works on some apps and doesn't
work on others or totally crashes some apps,
personally, and I'll say blueberry has multiple
enclosures support, like you can put multiple in the same feed
item like episode No, we don't support that. And that was a
decision that we made because of basically following what
everyone else was doing, you know, Apple and everyone else so
we, you know, we had to build, I guess for a better reason to
make sure that you know, podcasters episodes we're
getting into into the various directories but at the same
point, I'm of the opinion and probably be opposite of your
guys's is that, I think multiple enclosures in a single RSS feed
or single episode item is bad. And the reason I think that is I
like to be able to brand my content differently between
video and audio or any other content. So I want separate
beats now. I could do both, I guess. But I think Adam, this
argument was going on in Oh, 506. And he
was he was and and I'm going to side with Dave Winer on this
one, because I witnessed that, that close up, and I, I want to
respect what he what he did and did not want to know that. There
were because they were well, there's another thing that was
going on then but to me.
Ah, was he a poor single? Or was he okay? But no single single.
And he
says if you want to, if you want to do more, there were there
were two arguments at the time. One was the multiple enclosures
and the other was where the shownotes go, which he also said
namespace. Yeah. And so for me, I want to respect that because
we know technically we know what to do. To me, I see a much
bigger picture. And here would be my he would be my example.
And I'm just going to use ipfs because I because it works. So
you have in the namespace and ipfs enclosure, hash. Wait,
wait, wait, wait.
He needs some namespace talk to me. We're talking about
namespaces Oh my
god, I'm so sorry. What do
now it's time for? Nah. Oh, yeah. I
want to add something
to your namespace baby.
Give him a cigarette.
Yeah, baby.
I would have an ipfs tag, it would be the hash for an
enclosure. And that would, I would say be something that
would be a follow up to the value for value payments being
integrated to the way I see it. If I have a podcast app that
supports both payments and ipfs. I would consider getting a piece
of the action based upon me also hosting the file. And maybe that
happens in the app I'm using.
Oh pay? Yeah, you're paying for her. Yeah, you're allowing
anybody to be at anybody to host that content. Yeah.
So unfortunate for you. Yes. So I'm so I'm, I'm conflict
relating to things. But to me in general, the ipfs as an
enclosure, to me, it seems like throw that in the namespace
because otherwise we're just going to argue for 10 more years
and Apple's not going to do it. No one's going to do it and look
how far we've gotten just by putting in one one shunt really,
which is podcaster wallet comm you know, the shunt waiting for
people like on a blueberry to add stuff to their, to their
authoring tools before people can add data into their feed?
Why would we do exactly the same with ipfs? It's going to be a
small group. Anyway, that's testing it initially. But I
think, again, here's a use case that we can present at scale to
the ipfs. community.
I like it, it decouples the tool and it decouples the tools from
from the burden of doing the hosting, because I think the
value of like, the value of blueberry and in podcast hosting
is the is the tools that you bring. It's not the pie. I mean,
because that's I agree. And you can, because anybody can just
buy bandwidth and where it's mostly it's that the blueberry
provides, however,
however, however,
and the consulting to go with it.
We're very fortunate to have two guys in the business here. And I
want to hear Todd with his business hat on, what are the
downsides? Because I, I can one I think immediate is stats that
may become an issue. Am I correct?
stats may not? Well, there may be a way around the stats, but
you're you know, then we're talking about? Well, there's two
ways to do it to have some sort of redress reporting the carries
along with that link, or some sort of ping back. But, you
know, that's a whole nother lengthy discussion.
How about how about in general, the concept of implementing
something like this, which could theoretically lower your actual
overhead?
Yeah, that's, that's always something that I would I would
definitely look at. Now, you know, here's the thing. We're
just like any other company, I'm going to throw this over to
Angelo, and he's gonna go, are you kidding? I can save you
$10,000 a month in our $20,000 a month and bandwidth? Is this
worth a month of dev time? And you know, that answer is
probably yes. But, again, you can't just be the sole player in
the block, you got to have wide adoption, in order to scale
this.
What do you think? And I'm glad you brought up Angela, because I
appreciate him getting involved in the namespace on GitHub, but
he's already he's already changed some directions on a few
things that have been very helpful. And one of the things
like from, you know, from that standpoint, you know, what, what
do you when y'all when y'all decide to implement a tag? I
know that for the most part, it's like, you got to figure out
what's the, what's the balance? What's the trade off between
spending all this time doing it? And how much bang for the buck
is gonna have? Like, what? What's your thinking process on
where to? So the reason I'm bringing this up is something
like, there's a tech proposal that's not in, it's not been put
into a phase yet. There's a tech proposal for something called
alternate enclosure, which would allow you to have a allow you to
have multiple enclosures, and some of them be low bandwidth
versions and that kind of thing. I mean, like, when you see
something like that, what, what's the thought process there
about where to prioritize something like that on a
roadmap?
I think it really boils down to is who's paying our bills?
podcasters. So what are we trying to do, we're trying to
help podcasters we're trying to build things for them that will
help them grow their show and grow their audiences. That's,
that's our number one goal. Of course, we're provide tools to
but I think that we have to look at, you know, I'm gonna throw a
big word out there, we user personas, Every company has user
personas, specific types of people that use your service.
And then we have to say, well, this user persona use this or
not, will it benefit them? Or, more importantly, has a 500
people ask for this feature? Or have three
that's gonna say, you know, is is you know, if we have a
podcasters saying, hey, how come you haven't implemented that and
I can prove that hey, we got a lot of customers or potential
customers that want this that'll move it up in the stack.
The moving up him?
What a way that was hard.
What would you say to your user persona? Is that no, some are
more like corporate podcasting. What What is your sort of bread
and butter? Oh, we,
you know, bread and butter is people that own their own comms
using WordPress with our powerpress plugin, you know that
that is, that is one that's, you know, that's core.
It's the guy sitting next to the water heater in the basement
doing a show or doing a podcast that's
true to an independent, independent podcasters largely
businesses too, but mostly, you know, if you look at just the
customer type or the podcaster type, it's it's a business guy,
individual that has a website,
tell me about the the pod press plug in, what functionality does
it provide Does it tap into your API? Or is it creating the feed
on its own? And just uploading that and the file to your
servers? How does that interrupt?
Yeah, power press will work standalone. Without us, they
blueberry could turn the switch off today and power press but
continuing work. But it is integrated so that if you're
hosting with us, you can essentially upload your media
file right within the podcast post in WordPress. And it's, you
know, I always use the term create, upload and publish and
you don't leave your own new basic, your own dashboard. But
it does, it gets created an RSS feed form. So they have their
own RSS feed, they're calm. There isn't there is API calls
that go back and forth. And of course, stats integration.
Okay, so there's the when they if I own a WordPress site, and a
nice power press, I'm uploading the enclosure file to you guys.
But then I'm everything else is being hosted locally on my
domain, and then that, but then you also can do some stats off
that too.
With the disclaimer, if you don't want to host with us, you
can drop an link in the you know, you can you can drop a
media link in it as well and publish it agnostic.
Yeah.
Yes. I mean, that's, that's a great way to decentralize.
Because I mean, that's, yeah, that's, that's great.
And its power. Its power press, I don't see them on our apps
page. Are they doing any of the namespace
iMac packets in this current sprint lock is going in on this
on this sprint. So so
so let me ask you this, and I hope I'm not offending you. I'm
just, you know, I have to ask you, because I, I've had
businesses, so if you have power press and perhaps a cast apod
and a couple others, and, and I can tell you the future that I
that I personally see. But so what if power presses as an
example? You know, there's a there's an alternate enclosure,
they have ipfs, both their feed and, and ipfs works, you know,
and it works with a number of apps, because it will there's
always going to be a couple of devs, who will put it in? Does
that threaten your business? Or do you have thoughts about how
to you know what your USP is, in that case, towards those types
of customers?
I don't think that threatens our business. You know, again, we
build tools podcasters need. So if ipva ipfs becomes a viable
piece. And I don't see any law, we all again, we're going to
talk about as a team. But at this same point, the alternate
enclosure piece. Oh, you know, that one might be harder to get
through the chop chain, because you know, we've been as long as
it's in a different item, but it won't be Hmm, that's an
interesting, after lunch, run that to the CPU a little bit.
But
I think I think that falls, that particular tag falls into the
category of, you know, there's always the chicken and egg thing
this, who implements the tag First, the podcast, the podcast
app, or the Podcast Producer, and you're not some some tags.
You you feel so confident in them, in their use case, that as
an as an app, or excuse me, as a host, you say, Well, that makes
a lot of sense. But then other tags, it's like, well, it may be
a really good idea. But that's just not I'm just not sure I
want to commit to that. And so you have, then you have to wait
in that. And only then it becomes sort of an app first
thing. So it's always like, well, is it gonna be chicken
first or going to be egg first, I think it's different for every
tag,
I have a hard time prioritizing something for 3%. And
unfortunately, 3% is what leads the way in developing new trends
that the rest of the folks adopt. So you know, I, I'll
either be on the train or off the train, and I'll be looking
at the train leaving me going down the track. And I may be
like, cussing at myself for not putting that as a dead priority.
But it's a hard juggle really is
very, very unique in that we also have three different feed
generation systems. We got power press, we've got a traditional
publisher system, just like you know, the rest of them. And then
we also have a Feedburner replacement called podcasts
mirror, which is another way to feed so we got to implement it
in three places.
Yeah, forgot about that.
Did you and now what is the API? blueberry has an API. Can you do
all of the functions through an API?
You can do about 90% of the stuff through the API. There's
publishing stats pulling all of them we've got a pretty robust
API, including the directory has an API too. So
if I were if I was Martin, Martin's one of my favorite
developers, I'm hooked on the pod friend if I was Martin, or
any one of our fabulous developers, this is how I would
think and blueberry would fit in this scenario. perfectly. When I
create a Word document, I do it in Microsoft Word, then I do all
my formatting and whatever. And then I save it. And then I send
that file. And many cases, you can do it interactively, you can
share it, but I send that file to Dave, Dave opens it in word
or a, something that understands word. And, and you know, he can
enjoy that and, and read it as I created it. And you can even
change it and save it any way he wants. I would have a podcast
app that allows the podcaster to use the same interface. I know
how crazy it sounds, but use the same app that I'm creating my
podcast ID, and why wouldn't I be able to talk to me?
Technically I can. I can get an account with with blueberry and
then just say I'm with blueberry. And this app could be
my it could be my wiziwig huh. podcast editor, because I would
see how everything looks I see. Okay. The preview function, of
course, and I can. Alright, I see my transcripts showing the
images are working in the chapter files. I got everything
all set up. Go done one AP.
And we have Yeah, go ahead. And we we do have some folks that
have integrated with us Hindenburg, basically. And they
do a very basic and
they save Hindenburg. So I can do that straight
from Hindenburg. Yeah, they can set you can send the audio file
created directly to our to our platform. So you can't do
publishing but you can send that media file to us and skip this
step of uploading it. Hindenburg does that
thing is cool, because you have that idea is neat, because then
you see it with hyper catcher, you're you have exactly,
yeah, you're you're creating the chapters, you creating the
chapters in the same app that you listen to. Yeah, the next
step, the next step for him is that you can approve those
chapters in the app as well, instead of going to a back end,
that that's, you know, ink anchors. whole model is you can
download your download the app and you can record on your
phone, and just upload it straight to your to your, you
know, to your profile to your hosting account. Just like that
would be if somebody could do that with blueberry as well. If
you had a you know, let's just say hyper catcher integrated
with blueberry record on your phone and upload straight to
your blueberry account. You're doing it in the same app. He
never Yeah,
podcast app. And you could actually if someone does to
interface so yeah, she published right there just hit Publish.
And it's it's live.
Now the danger there, of course, is that if ipfs catches on, then
you might have 15 competitors overnight who have file storage
built into their tool.
Yeah, but that you already support like, y'all already
supported bit torn. So you know, and that that was it. Because
it's interesting to be about the tools in the in the in the user
experience more so than just what Rob Bly who hosts the file?
Yeah, that's a that's a good question. What what really are
the main features of a podcast hosting company? And what what
do people respond to when you do your marketing? And what do they
come to you for? Or what are the features that they want?
Well, that's what we build to, you know, and, you know, and
it's all about serving that that customer need. And you know, our
marketing, our marketing pitch is not much different than any
other podcast hosts. We provide podcasts hosting with tools and
services to publish and distribute your show along with
giving them the ability to free WordPress site. There's the
pitch, you know, I can get a 30 day free trial, blah, blah,
blah, you
also do your you do your consultation, which I think is
right, should not underestimate that's a big part of it, is
it not? Yeah. And of course we talk and you know, nothing is
also that's kind of special about our tools. We build in
network tools. So podcasters are building networks. They can
build a network, right? Cool. We've got sites that are running
600 podcasts on a single word. Imagine I don't know what kind
of a beast of a server that's running. I didn't know that
sounds pretty cool. It is cool. And they're using taxonomy. So
hey, Mike, as customer support, can I change your title? Yeah.
How about
you got a VP you get a VP title. SPP instead of Customer Support
Manager. How about customer success affiliate?
Oh, let's just not do the Ninja and Sherpa crap and you know,
customer success affiliate.
So Adam, we got sidetracked earlier. Did you want to know
the origin story of blueberry? How they got the name? Of
course, of course. So So Rob was had this basically had a phrase.
So Rob always knew organic media. So when podcasts or news
a website failed, we were sitting in a resort in Chicago
in February. Yes, that's a great retreat. Yeah, great retreat
sitting around trying to decide what this new site was going to
be called. And I don't know how he got on it. It was that during
the.com era when no one was using vowels and pressure,
somehow transferred to blueberry and that's how, because you
remember, right in those early days, you couldn't use the word
podcast without worried about getting sued. We would call
ourselves a podcast hosting company. No one.
No one ever no one ever got sued over did they
know they did it? Do you know, but there are some apps that
have gotten some heat. So that's where we were worried about
using podcasts in the name. It's all dumb now, but that was what
was going on.
And didn't we did we have a we have raspberry with Nui
Oh yeah, we had all plans from Africa. We still have those
domains raspberry. We're gonna put like, you know, super
celebrities like add them on and different people like that. It
was all kinds of crazy ideas.
Yeah, I remember the day when when we were doing Dave liner's
world outline. I remember, I fired up the site to clone that
over and it was w RLD. Outline, he just he just dropped the
vowel and your, your web your web 2.0
That's right, and put a.io after it and you're really grueling.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, then you get VC money.
You guys do some advertising services as well.
It's not a primary part of our business. But we do. Deals come
in, you know, we get emails all the time and RFPs respond to
them and but tell you, Adam, that 90% of podcasters today
store and get any advertising. Is it 00 I
wouldn't expect you to I wouldn't. It's like the promise
of blogs. It's the same thing.
Chelsea and Chelsea that verge article about the about anchor
like almost all of their podcasters are getting a house
add money.
A grand eight grand for house ads. That's pretty interesting.
They're gonna stop that I heard
well, they'll have to eventually the bleeding dried. It's a weird
circular motion.
My Spotify is unlimited cash. Don't you know? Yeah.
Think the limit is is coming up.
Who's got the funky Bell?
That's me. Sorry. No, it's
okay. I just want I couldn't identify and it's like, Is it
this one? No, it's not.
You know, you would podcast
is when you hear bells ringing. So I get a tip for you. Maybe
more from Mike than for Todd. And we're for both of you.
Because I have a customer for you. Or a lot of customers like
this person I think will be coming. So Dana Brunetti. Never
heard of this name? DANA Brunetti is a Hollywood guy who
is anti Hollywood. And we got to know him through the no agenda
show is he's a executive producer, and kind of found that
because he put that credit on his IMDB page. And if you look
at Dana Brunetti his IMDB page, he's a producer of social
network of Captain Phillips, of House of Cards 50 shades of grey
and 50 shades of grey and 50,000 shades of some more gray. So he
he's had a lot of success. And he called me the other day. And
he said, Adam, I have an idea for podcasting. 2.0 and and I
want to know, is it possible today to use the chapters with
the images rotating like you've shown us in with no agenda and
podcasting 2.0 and mo facts and those shows? I said, Yeah, it's
okay, because we have a concept. And we think we'll be, you know,
producing several of these. And they, they kind of want to
become a production house for this type of mixed media
content. So I'm telling you this, because if you were to
focus on anything based upon customer demand, at least you
can be on the lookout for that if and when it cranks up.
You know, that chapters feature has me very interested. But I
look at this also as a podcaster. I don't have time to
do chapters. So how many? How many podcasters? I'm playing
devil's advocate a little bit here. How many podcasters have
time to put chapters in the show?
Well, that is depends on the system. So for for a Hollywood
guy who's producing stuff specifically, he'll take as long
as he needs because that's what he's doing. I personally do not
have time, enter the beautiful world of hyper catchers,
community chapters. And I think what this is the model as far as
I'm concerned, where you can have the community creating
chapter marks, all you have to do is go in, take a look and
approve, you know, the basic, basic moderation that that's
working today. And and in this case, I was also Able to
delegate that to Dred Scott, hello drab, who is doing the
chapters for this show as well? So that's kind of the beauty of
podcasting is there's always somebody look at, you know, look
at SoundCloud. You know, it's it's rarely the creator itself
who's putting shit on the timeline. It's the audience. So
I think that's that's where this feature is headed. So then what
I'm saying to you is I, maybe not maybe there's not a single
podcaster. But I do know one and one, one who has pretty big
influence. So just be on the lookout if more people start
looking for it.
So Adam does that community source chapters is real cool.
You're doing it? Does your feed then dynamically update? Yeah,
or how,
ooh, hold on a second. Let's do it. Again, just
make sure you understand how it works.
namespace.
Come over here to snuggle up. Let me show you how we do this
here. It's, it's in the in the namespace, the chapters file
calls for a URL to a JSON file. And so that JSON file can update
whenever it's ready to update flows right through the minute
someone loads the podcast, it is unbelievably beautiful to do
that. After the fact it is so cool. Play
that play that song again, that is a sexy name.
Integrate
namespace Come on Todd, stick it in the namespace.
Now that's that's good that that can be done that way. Because
that's the only way that people have time. I could have a
producer come in later. And spend an hour on that instead of
having to do it when I was producing.
Right. A lot of people there's a lot of podcasters that do it and
they bake it into the mp3, you know, in the in the hammock not
done. Yeah. And it's like, there's the only ones that those
I don't know how big a percentage that is, I could I
could name probably five off top my head that I know, they're
bigger podcasts. And they're also the guys that don't seem to
mind doing a lot of stuff in post. And, you know, but then
you get to your other, you know, most people are not gonna have
time to sit there and go through Oh, but here's the
here's the beauty Dave, and this is what the flow is so
phenomenal with hyper catcher, because drab was listening to
the show anyway. So we just listened to the show. And he
says, Oh, that's cute. And he just taps right on the app, he's
using click. And then he can write a little note or a
message, whatever it is title, the full title URL, and then he
goes into the back end. And then he'll either expand on them add
an image or whatever. But it's in real time while anyone's
listening they can create a chapter and and it's fun because
phone boy who does the no agenda quotes, he started using hyper
catcher to add things that he likes which go into his no
agenda, quotes, database, but now they're also in the chapter
timeline. So it becomes a really wealthy experience.
Yeah, you can see this it wants this show gets released, you'll
see like slowly over the period of, you know, a day or two, the
chapters will just get added.
And in pod friend in the episode, and this is Oh, my God.
Thank you, Martin. You go to the episode, and right there in the
transcript, which is another one of my favorite tags. You can
search. So when you say Hey, what did you say like I say on
Thursday, you go to the episode, you type in the search, boom, it
pulls out the transcript, which also clearly avidly
advocate for podcast listeners. You know, most didn't, I'm an
avid listener, but most of the time I bring it up on my phone,
I hit play, I stick the thing in my pocket, I'm not looking at my
device while I'm playing. So of course not see any of that
stuff. Of course, not
you that you've not been trained for this at all, there was no
reason to not tell
you when I'll tell you, when I pull it up, when I pull the my
phone out and look at it. I can always tell you know, the once
as a podcaster. And once you get used to the fact that you're
gonna have that stuff in there, you trigger your audience.
Exactly. And it's like you because I know, like if we if
something's funny gets said on the show, I know that I can
probably pull out the phone. And there may be some you know,
something about it on the chat because the chapter can contain
either text or a URL to a site, you know, we need to
we need to be able to trigger haptic
like there.
But that's exactly it. I have no agenda. When we're reviewing the
art. We'll talk about the art that didn't make it into the
album art competition. And that's rotating as we speak. So
the number one place people will see this. I guess with no with
hype when there's integration is CarPlay and Android Auto or
whatever it's called. Because you'll just you'll see it's flip
switch right on the screen.
You'll be to almost this this is just a way in my mind sin here
spending honestly. This is way to build engagement. It's a way
to build your sir. Yeah, people are gonna race to be the one to
submit something to get that call out on the show even gamify
this and say okay, the first five people that mentioned this,
you know gets a gift card or something more drips got
drip Scott does such a good job with our chapters that we put
him into the payment split, he now gets 5% every episode.
It's also hilarious. He's adding a third dimension. You know,
when when, the other day when we were talking about donations
being low, he put the sad puppy in, you know, it's like, oh,
man, he's just he added a punch line. Yeah, that's really
powerful. And, and if there's one thing I've heard over and
over again, we've got to get community, either comments or
chat or something where you can talk about the show cross app.
And I know it's coming. I know where it's coming from. But you
know, this is this is where podcasting is behind. That is
you know, the YouTube community and then we have clubhouse
which, by the way, I would not advise anybody don't build your
career on clubhouse. That's not gonna last clubhouse is gonna
get deep platformed
we have a running pool to see when they disappear. Can I get
in on that?
Not a blueberry internal pool. Just wait, no, no, no.
Blueberry.
I mean, like it to me. And I had a conversation with Sam Santhi
about this because he was talking about using club
clubhouse. And I was like, I just don't think it's gonna
survive beyond the exclusivity period. I mean, once if it's
only it's only people only want it right now. But it's like Ted
Talks. You know, it's it's exclusive. And it feels like
you're in, you know, you like you're getting access to the to
the private people. That goes
cancelable stuff going on there. Once you can speak freely,
somewhere it ends
instead of 500 rooms when there's 10,000 or 100,000. Then
they've got another issue as well.
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's not cheap.
Well, there's that. Yeah, there's that? Yeah.
So
how much to buy? You guys? I know you're thinking about it.
So let's set a price. We're saving up.
You're saving.
You're saving up?
Well, we have a couple options at this point. So
you come to me with a decent seven figure number we can we
can have a great discussion.
Wouldn't you want to cash
figures you've
been doing this for so long? Wouldn't you want to cash out at
some point I'm and by the way, I mean that very sincerely. I
don't give a shit who you sell. Sure. I'm
just at any company you build is built to be acquired. So
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, any company build is built to be acquired. And you know, we
ever presented an offer. You know, one thing, I'll be honest
with you, though, I'm a little bit of a purist. We're gonna
make sure that if we ever do sell, it's going to be someone
that takes care of the independent podcaster.
community, we don't want to, we really have no independent
podcaster. So this is what the company was built on. So I've
got a real affinity towards that group. And I don't ever want
them to leave them hanging.
Fair enough.
Yeah, I can see, I think that's something that you may be unique
to the podcast. Hosting industry is, there's, of course, not all
of them. But the ones that have been around for a long time seem
to, like blueberry, seem to seem to have a more purist idea. It's
like, Well, I mean, because I think most of them, like you
guys are, were podcasters to begin with. So it's like, well,
I mean, we don't want to screw over, you know, the next
generation so to speak.
We're on the show, because we believe in open podcasting.
Yeah.
Well, it is a vow of poverty. And it is a struggle, and I
appreciate that because I know exactly what it takes. No, I do.
I mean, yeah, building the value for value model. You know, I eat
my airplane. And it takes a while to to build these things.
But I think I think that's often missing. Adam, you put in your
time you put in your legs you put in the building audience you
play hard work. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I get people call me three
episodes in how come I can't make money? Yeah,
yeah. All the time and customer support, though. They'll call me
and say, Hey, I just put on my third episode. Where's the end
deals? Right?
Well, I think this we're podcasting. 2.0 can like the net
with the namespace and everything you can when you have
new features Finally, and that's that's the thing you can you
could take a podcast and say, Okay, well, this podcast is
implementing chapter art or something like that. And it
could be a new experience, and it could drive a little bit more
of a little bit more engagement. And this is something that has
not existed in podcast space for a long time. And,
and here's a benefit that you might like transcript tag, I
think I can, I think I can sell this to you to implement this.
Oh, we're already sold on the transcript tag. Okay, because
1888 compliance is a huge deal and the lawsuits are coming. So
the quicker you know, then there's many, many informative
podcasts that just have to be ADA compliant. And that means
you have to have subtitles or transcript or something
available for certain types of information.
I just realized I gave you the wrong number eight figures, not
seven. Okay. I got
excited, I was already transferring Bitcoin to Dave.
I'm like,
a couple mil. I
was just like, That's it. That's it. Undergraduate math for you.
Hey, Dave, hey, Dave,
these guys are dumb. Let's go by.
I'm looking in my wallet.
I'm like, man, I just I just got fired.
So, Mike, how many? How many customers do you need to hear
from before you kick something over to the dev team for a quote
or for an estimate? I mean, is that 100 people? Is it 50? Is it
1000?
It could be two or three and I believe in it fully. So I, you
know, I've been pushing, not pushing. But you know, I
realized we have to have, you know, we have to have a need for
it. As far as you know, we can't just spend a lot of time doing
this for the sake of doing it, I guess is what I'm getting at is
what? I don't know. But no, we're fully You know, I'm fully
on board and, and you know, the more I hear from the the higher
up in the stack it can get and
that's Mike and Mike at blueberry calm everybody. Go
ahead and let Mike know what you want. T is your customer, your
he is your customer success affiliate.
And we have had those dreaded meetings, planning meetings to
see where this fit in the dev schedule. And I
really I really appreciate that I'm just pushing by No, but I I
really do appreciate it. Now. I know. I mean, Dave and I are
still friends after 10 years. So I figured out how how when to
push and when not to
wouldn't do the private feeds. Are y'all in that game? yet?
Me are? You just answered that this year?
Okay, so I've got a question revolving that because this came
this came on the mastodon this
Hold on, hold on a second. Here
we go. Now, it's
three times in one in one night. Oh, my God. Did you insatiable?
It's good. Because we're talking about private, private. On the
podcast, namespace if you had just a simple tag that you said
private yes, no, just like, because here's the challenge
that I've had this this week is for an experiment, I turned on a
script I've been working on for a while. It takes all the
anytime some the the endpoint that says podcast by Feed URL,
if that misses. And it says this, this URL doesn't exist in
the database. I would say gather go through there and gather all
those misses from the logs, and then put them through, you know,
a bunch of checking and sanity and all that jazz and then try
to find stuff we're missing by scraping out of the logs, things
that people wanted to hit and mark there. And immediately
you're getting a bunch of private stuff, a bunch of
private fields that have bait HTTP basic authentication, on
the beginning of the URL, a strategic hurry membership only
feeds all this kind of jazz started, you know, started
coming up in the list that was that I was testing. And so then
I started to get put in all the all the exclusionary retro Rena
regular expression, the garbage to try to kick all that stuff
out. And if you just had a simple tag that said, Is this a
private member only fate or is it not? Then I would have to get
through all that
is similar to the lock tag, I guess.
Yeah. And I think that's good for Well, here's, here's the
other token of that you've got on private podcast speeds, there
can be different levels of security, maybe only secure the
media, that's really the lowest level where the Feed URL is
still public, and it can still be pulled into a directory, then
you go to that next level where the both the feed and the RSS
feed are authenticated. And then really at the highest level of
security and private podcasting, it's really no longer a podcast,
it's just a stream. But yeah, I think I could go for that,
especially having a directory as well where I could say, and we
just don't index that we leave that alone. But on the opposite
token, then that gives someone that maybe is up to sinister,
you know, then they go after that feed, what is in here?
What? Let's try to hack this, so we can, you know, consume what,
what's being hidden? I don't know, it's two sides of the coin
there, that would be a good one to ask Angelo.
Because anytime anytime you have an index, whether it's an
opening, you know, whether it's an Open Directory, or whether
it's, you know, something private, like, the the, the
infrastructure that backs podcast addict, or overcast or
something like that, you're just going to end up with a lot of
stuff in there. And what you see is people requesting, requesting
feeds, using those private, those private URLs, and you see
a username and a password separated by a colon before the
app, you know, before the ampersand, there's a schema for
that symbol. And you see those and it's like, oh, my God, I
gotta purge this out of the logs. I mean, these are people's
passwords. I don't even want this in my, I want this in here,
right.
But this is the problem with some of these private podcasting
solutions have been put up, I've always told customers, you need
to look closely how that's implemented. Because sometimes
security is implied it is an explicit and you're just
highlighting and don't say anything. That's an implied
security because someone is embedding that user and password
in that call to that media.
So I don't think I would ever use a service that if you're
going to do a membership only service and you get back like
something that has an auth token in the URL. Okay, that's fine,
but if you're gonna have to put in a username and password that
is, that's highly sketchy. I don't think that that's
so sound sounds like By the way, I am so turned on right now.
That sounds like a winner
Yeah, I was gonna put it I wanted to throw it by you guys
first before I throw it before it actually made it they known
an actual proposal and throw it in the pool.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna throw that one over to Angela too cuz
he always is the you know, he's the one that come up Matt fact
he's got some feedback for you guys on the lock tag. He was
talking to me about it last Friday hit us. Tell us something
about that. It's dedication piece. It's about the email
authenticating and looking at it from a directory and looking at
it from a private podcaster standpoint where the person's on
their own comm anyway, he can explain it. He's, he's the one
that stops here this scenario. So
yeah, cool. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he's been he's been super
valuable.
Maybe a moment here to thank a few people who've supported
podcasts index, podcasting 2.0 and have actually sent us some
treasure. All we want is your time your treasure or your
talent. That's the value for value model. This is what the
entire the servers, everything runs on it. And the way to do
that is again, you can sign up at podcasts. index.org become a
developer if you're developer join podcast index dot social,
joining the conversation, and we love the treasure and Dave who
can we thank today
this is our you can listen to how much into our fund our buy
blueberry fund. Yes.
Send more money. We need more to buy blueberry.
See, Greg? Greg Carl would from higher higher side chats he's
helping us by blueberry. See, he sent us $500
Whoa, now you
know he mentioned this to me because he'd been asking for a
long time to interview me. It actually came through crossover
of our media tribes you know people who listen to him also
listen to no agenda and and this was very focused on podcasting
to buy likes, I'll put it in the show notes. very focused on
podcasting. 2.0 great guy and he as you can see, he's all on
board. Thank you so much, man that really appreciate that
really do.
Yeah, he had a message that said, thanks to both of you.
You're doing the Lord's work. Great. Carl would have said
check your mic and go ahead and get my get my office ready.
That's right, baby.
Yeah, I'll build another 10 foot shed here in Traverse
City. And close my
eyes. Let's see. Make sure this is not anonymous. No. Okay. This
is from sir Jeffrey. Sir Jeffries, Ellen. Love the board
May he gave us $50. And he said love the board meetings and
found a lot of inspiration to contribute over on the mastodon
based on your conversations. Hope this helps pay for someone
to go juggle, juggle the wire and loosen up the club bits.
He's Muppet. 1856 on podcast index dot social. Nice.
Yeah. All right, we'll
go. We'll go jiggle the handle. Let's see what we got. Ah
1234 $12.34 from Mark Taylor. No note from Mark. Thank you, Mark.
We got $20 from Scott Gerard. Again, no note. Thank you,
Scott.
This is good. Good week.
Yeah, it is good week. See this? Oh, we got an automatic. So I
got an idea for for peerage. If, if we need to, we need a pod, we
need a GitHub repository. And we just put people into the GitHub
repo to help them beef up their, their GitHub profile. Like, you
know, cuz that's the way like developers, right?
Like LinkedIn pay for your profile. I'm sure I'm sure we're
breaking some terms of service with GitHub somewhere. But great
idea. Let's
do it.
Last,
we'll get him to do a pull request. And we'll just say end
quote. You know, it merged their pull request and they get
instant cred,
guys.
Let's do it.
So the he's got a new subscription for $8 a month cost
subscriptions are
great. We really appreciate those.
Those helped Dwayne Goldie, the second. And last one, yes or
less. Lauren ball $24.20. He says Happy Friday, gentlemen,
this month, the short letter enjoy the weekend.
Thank you. It's great.
2420 I'm not sure if that's numerology
or not at all the 420 part I picked up on I'm not quite sure.
Yeah, that's our group. Good group.
I've got a defragment everybody. Okay, thank you all very much.
This is what it what it runs on. This is how the only way there's
no advertising, commercial interests, anything that could
cloud the vision of preserving podcasting as a platform for
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go to podcast index.org. And on the bottom Big Red Donate
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$600 closer to being Todd and Mike's balls. That's right.
Can't wait.
I'm gonna make him get coffee.
Yeah, that's a guy guys. We're gonna put better coffee in the
break room.
Things will improve charge of Dev.
Adam now be honest with you never want to be in charge of
dev because that is just nothing but a
was when I when we took took my company public in 96. And I
never wanted to be the CEO. I was CTO. So I had great people
working with me, but I remember becoming because we were NASDAQ
becoming y2k compliant. Brother, let me tell you, I learned a
lot. I learned a lot during
that process. And during the y2k thing, I worked at a Insurance
Brokerage as a as a sysadmin. We had a floppy disk that we would
run What do you get was a three and a half inch floppy that
would go around to every computer in the entire like,
this is like, you know, 500 machines, you put the floppy
disk and boot off the floppy. you'd run a couple of commands.
It would tell you whether the BIOS was y2k compatible or not.
If it wasn't, then you had a firmware you had to load up to
weeks. weeks.
I got it. I did get a NASDAQ commendation for being the first
public company to be fully y2k compliant. Which sad about
seeing the big scam that it was
my mom bought her bunker and regenerators and that's it.
Hey, it's still useful today. So
more useful.
Gentlemen, it's
been so nice having you on. It's nice to just chat for a little
bit. Is there anything we missed? You guys want to talk
about besides the acquisition, any other word knows we're in a
quiet period right now. Anything else on your radar that we can
do to improve your lives? Well,
I think just for the podcasters that are listening I think that
it's more important than ever, that you do everything you can
to build your show and your brand on, on land you own,
whether that be your own.com and on your own iron or whatever it
may be. I think having your own having your own website, in this
day and time and controlling your RSS feed is really, really
critical. You know, if anything else make sure you you own
that.com that that RSS feeds associated with Amen. Yeah,
that's
a great advice.
I was like, say, build your show on your platform, somebody
else's.
And 100%
we can help you do that.
And whatever you do look for protocols, not platforms,
because that's people just jumping from the fat into the
fire everywhere. Yep.
I mean, yeah, thanks, Adam and de purlins Come on, we
appreciate.
Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.
No, thank you guys. And thank you for for being a pillar, a
pillar of the podcasting space. But also just, you know, great,
great members of the UN, I mean it when I say community, because
podcasting, it's still it's always going to be community as
long as we have free and open podcasting and you are clearly
right there at the tip of the spear with everybody else and
really, really appreciate it and thanks again for coming on. And
I'm sure will be will be update what what have you guys on again
in the future, you know, after after the sale.
It'll just be a meeting and
a quick meeting. Dave, anything for you as we wrap it up.
Now, I get to take care of the day job, so I'm not I'm good.
I'm like I just need to any some food. gotta eat some lunch,
everybody, go get your favorite dev some lunch pizza works. I
hear and thank you very much for joining us once again to
podcasting. 2.0 we back again with another board meeting of
the future next Friday. See
you then.
Listening to podcasting 2.0 visit podcasts index.com for
more information. podcasts are cool.