podcasting 2.0 for February 12 2021, Episode 24 value
economics. I hope I can figure out what that means. And even
though it's cold outside, it is hot in the boardroom here for
podcasting 2.0 podcast index.org I'm Adam Curry in Austin, Texas.
And in Alabama, the man who can calculate 100% of the value
split my friend on the other end danger.
Yeah, cold is right. It is cold as a well diggers, but in
Birmingham, Alabama,
uh, well, diggers, but I like it. I had not heard this. This
is good. Is that what you get when y'all say down there? Yes.
What we're saying down here. Over there.
I mean, they're expecting seven degrees in Austin. I think.
Sunday.
Did you say seven? Seven? That ain't right. Yeah. That is not
right. For this out. We are supposed to be like 20 like 18
or 20. On Sunday, it was literally 70 degrees here two
days ago.
Oh, yeah. No, we had exactly the same thing. It's it's bizarre
kind of.
Yeah. I don't know what the polar vortex is or getting this
out. I don't know what's funny. Like, it's funny
how we never heard about that as kids this polar vortex business.
You know, what we did hear about was the hole in the ozone layer?
Yes. Which, which just seems to magically repaired itself.
I got a lot of grief for that. Because one of the there were
two main sources of the devastating hole in the ozone
layer. One was air conditioning, and the other was hairspray. And
man in the 80s people were mad at me.
You were you were at least 40% of the whole came directly from
the New York around the MTV studios.
Oh, man. Yeah, exactly.
You know, Valentine's day Sunday? Yes. And I think we
should need to start the show off a little bit different.
I love you. And I'm sorry. I was right on cue, man.
I love you. And I'm so glad we're doing this together. I
love you. And I'm so glad that we're doing this together.
Oh, Dave, I love you. And I'm so glad we're doing this together.
That's the way you start a monitor. Hello? Hello. Yeah,
that's
nice. Don't don't don't leave me hanging.
Adam, I love you. And I'm so glad we're doing this together.
Thank you. Now the universe is equal. Okay. Wow, man. How's it
been? I think it's been I kind of lost track of the week. I'm
not even sure what happened anymore. There was so much so
much.
That's a pretty good description. Yeah, there's a lot
It was. It was kind of a it was kind of a weird week. It just
kind of flew by and I don't really know how to explain it.
It was it was kind of busy at work. And I was trying to keep
up with with that and with podcast stuff. I think there's
one or two days where I was just kind of, you know, missing an
action but yeah, that's right. Oh, yeah.
I felt that
Yeah, I was I was having trouble with as I have some some
trouble.
Let me let me explain what that means. I felt that Oh, yes. I
love you. I'm so happy to be doing a podcast. Now in general
though, let me just say this universally maybe more people
have felt this. Besides that you were out and I Dave's got
something going on? He's clearly he he's busy but he'll show up
and yeah, and sure enough you posted like near the end of the
day or whatever is that and that's how I know if people are
alive his podcast index dot social. But in general, it's
basically the Apple Watch of his The day after the Super Bowl
Monday up into well, even today still, my email has been low
volume. I've seen low volume of posts on Twitter. In fact, the
only thing where there was any real action was on on the index
mastodon it was noticeable very noticeable. I don't know what
happens like we're also Mercury's in retrograde or some
of you know something like that. Whoa, what's going on?
Yeah, it's not good astrology.
Yeah, that bad stuff happens. I have a personal astrologer the
penny she's the official no agenda astrologer she sends me
stuff all the time about my my stars, my numbers and all of
this lines up all of what's happening with podcasting. 2.0
is has been predicted in the stars. There are no
coincidences.
The that's the Adam Curry is right. motto.
And there also are no secrets. Only information you don't yet
have. Yes, yes. And that's true. That's the true motto. Yeah, so
tell me what you were working on. On the index and we can kind
of pick it up from there. So we can figure out what, what the
update is because I have a lot of value for value stuff. But
you know, maybe do you have any namespace talk? Because, um,
I mean, not, not really, I think we do need to talk. We, you
know, we kind of finished up and, you know, quote, unquote,
shipped phase two, but I don't wait, I've been trying to think
of, sort of the next step. And I've been contacting some people
and posting on the namespace and like, hey, what, you know, where
do we want to go from here? I mean, what do we want to do?
Next? I thought, what a no. And Tom and James a few other
people, you know, gave responses, but I'm not real sure
what that means. May we do we, I said, what I said, well, we'll
just talk about it on the in the board meeting and see what we
want to do. Because I got some, I got some ideas. And, you know,
James mentioned tastes like, hey, maybe maybe we need to kind
of take take a breather from Korea from building new things.
And, like, make sure that we get apps and hosts and stuff to kind
of catch up
now there. Now there's a there's a point to that. And now I am
recalling some of the things that I saw over the past week.
Beautiful was to see buzzsprout popping up with, you know, with
location tags, so content content is being created,
Cridland is doing it, everybody is starting to create and take
advantage of well, chapters is another one. And I'm seeing
people switching apps. I mean, this is all just stuff I'm
noticing on Twitter, because I get tagged in it. So there is
Yeah, I think it's almost time to like pull back on the yoke a
little bit, you know, because things feel that lifting off,
like the nose wheel is starting to become a little light. And
really, when you see the content being created, specifically for
these features, that's when you know, now something is
happening. And and we're seeing who just added chapter images
buzzsprout. So they just added that, yes. So they added that to
the their suite. And those guys are just kicking ass. You got
sir gene showing up? Who was starting to understand some of
the features, you know, he still say, well, it doesn't work on
overcast, you know, so, and he's a smart guy. So it's like, a
little bit of education there. But there is something to be
said for taking a breather, but I'd hate to lose momentum. At
least we need to plant a flag in the future or maybe have a cut
off or proposal. You know what I mean?
Yeah, I was thinking that same thing, too. It's like there's
this tension between between move momentum and, and runaway
runaway runaway train, like no, yeah, yeah. And
I don't want to do that, you know, cuz, like we you actually
do, there is some wisdom in in kind of, Okay, let's, let's take
a pause and take a breather and say, Okay, let's give people and
the reality is I haven't even caught up yet. I mean, I don't
even have a PR person and location are not even in the
index yet. No, no, often halfway finished.
Well, there's your answer. Yes, here's your answer.
But I do think we need a time limit there. So like, let's just
say, Well, okay, let's, let's pause. Let's have a seven,
seven. intermission intermission between now and let's say we
pick up phase three, and, you know, 30 days from now or
whatever. And start didn't begin to take submissions for that and
begin to discuss it. Let's pause for a month but have an actual
date in mind where we don't say, hey, let's just let's chill out
for a while. Because I don't like that either.
Yeah, no, agreed. And here's what I'm feeling because I tried
to use all the apps that everyone's working on, try out
the new features, promote them, obviously, you got to post them
No, no, no agenda, no agenda, podcasts index dot social, so I
can see it to get some, I still have, like 57,000 Twitter
followers as their real to use that post purge, this post
purge. So useful wagon useful wagon. But I can see, right now
a lot of people are excited about lightning, and they're
integrating that. And I know, and maybe our guests later today
will be able to tell us more. But I know some people have put
some things aside that they wanted to fix and enhance do
another version of to do this. And I think for my money, we've
pushed very hard and everyone's pushed themselves very hard. And
maybe we just, I mean, there's integration between the things
that we have created already some of the newer tags and
lightning I mean, there's stuff to be done here. That and and
and neither you or I are qualified and we need to hear
from the from the developers we need to hear what what they want
and or individually. I have a feeling just just guessing that
they'll probably like yeah, it'd be okay to let's work on this
right. Now and maybe we have instead of a deadline of
something that, you know, could people have to do additional
thinking we have a debt, a start line. It's like on this date,
we're gonna start.
I like that. Yeah, I think that's
Yeah, I think it needs another deadline for something. I don't
know. I don't either. That's a lot of stress.
Yeah. And that's not why we did this. We did not do this for any
kind of stress or bullcrap, or any of that. Also not for
profit, which is kind of interesting. Very funny.
Well, I think you, I think, I think we both are kind of
similar. I mean, I know that you and I both get excited about
something. And we just, it's like, it just has to burn itself
out of our brain. I mean, like, it just has got to make it
happen. That's
the source of my sleepless nights sometimes.
Yeah, yes. I
just got to try this. One more thing.
Yeah. And so I think we've sort of come to a net is like a
natural kind of, that's that that initial burnout has worked
itself out. I've got it out of my brain now. But now I really
need to do a couple of things. I mean, I got to finish person and
location tag. Also. there's work to be done on the value blog.
There needs some tweaks there.
Yeah. Cuz then that may start to accelerate once people start to
see it. I mean, I'm seeing increases. Now. I'm an almost
three bucks a day. On my personal my personal stuff, and
I don't know who's using it. But the
one that that is that the note that like no agenda and podcasts
and extra social, I mean, yeah, like, Yes, yeah,
no, yeah. That is across my segment of this show. My split
of no agenda and my split of mo facts. I think this this show is
the majority of it. And the boost. I mean, the boost is
where it's you know, boost is where, where stuff comes from.
But if you look at the, the, just the number of transactions,
which is what I posted on on the mastodon the other day, yeah,
like 10 K. Yeah, the index is seen over 10,000 minutes. And so
that's excluding the boosts. Wow. So it's just, it's just the
minutes that a minute payment went out in a month, which is,
it comes down to like, 700 hours, I
think. Geez, laziness. Am I saying? Literally at home? Yeah.
Thanks. Am I saying
that right?
So it's like, I mean, 10,000 9000 would be
10,006 10 123 divided by 69? Yeah, it is. Now there wasn't
that much. I knew it couldn't be that much. 166. How can it be
fun? What I do now? That's not right. What the hell this is
Microsoft calculator. That doesn't tell you enough. It
seems
no, it seems. This is the part of the show where we do
a horrible No, it's 166 hours. I'm telling you. That's what it
is. Am I doing that? Right?
It's 10,000 hours, right? No? 10,000 minutes. 10,000 minutes
divided by 60 166 hours? Yeah. Okay. That's not exactly not
what I thought it was.
No, that's much less than I thought it was.
But still 166 hours when you've got 15 or make 15 podcasts?
Oh, yeah. It's and who the hell knows. I mean, that's pretty
much Sphinx and, and pod station. That's the only things
that'll do it. So I'm amazed. I'm amazed that Sphinx is
demonstrates this. Man, those guys, I appreciate them so much.
They're redoing their whole back end. Whatever happened when they
when they brought us in? Like we came in and we poop so hard that
their plumbing, the plumbing is just jacked. It's like you know
that pull that sludge out? You know, that you see on TV?
Hey, don't be like Caddyshack. It's like Snickers Snickers just
floating in the pool. You know?
people stop putting those podcast wipes down the tube,
you're clogging up the system. It's turning into a rock
formation. So yeah, and I feel really bad. But on the other
hand, I think we really did everyone in service.
I heard from and on the on the Sphinx. podcasting two point
eltra Yeah, no, I'm sorry, the podcast lightning tribe that I
thought I thought he was dead. I thought we lost it.
Either either. They had abandoned ship. And it was just
like floating Deathstar or they were floating, or they were or
they were patching holes and I think it was a lot of plugging.
Yeah, and now like these guys are gonna be heads down
developing that's that's what's going on here.
They said they're working on some stuff and we got it. We got
some tweaks to make to the value block for him. I
got we got stuff to do.
Ellen pay. Yeah, yeah.
Good anyway, so that's probably a good idea. You know, and we
Have a we just have many other things to, to to check off the
list everybody does. Everybody has a list of stuff. And no, I'm
just sitting here waiting, like, and also, I need to go out on
the on the road again, the virtual road. You know, I got a
couple more podcasts, I got to bring some more people in, we
got to tell our story. Our story is refined, it keeps getting
better. The story is accentuated the whole world is looking at
alternatives to the platforms. We're kind of in the sweet spot.
Yeah, I think so. The time, the timing of everything, of when
this was going to be needed exceeded, you know, like,
exceeded my expectations. It was like, Well, we've got these
ideas about things that may happen in the future. And then
they happened like a month later, you know?
Well, here's, here's something I feel is coming. Because right
now I've been through when podcasting started and when I
was foolish enough to think we could do this and the
traditional broadcast model raised VC money went out to San
Francisco. We were on a path and podcasting was Yeah, was was was
the hottest thing. It was the darling and then all of a
sudden, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, all of these community
based thing social networks. And, and I would say YouTube was
was just enormous. I mean that that made us change our business
model. In hindsight, none of it was good. So podcasting kind of
got pushed down to the bottom, and it grew very steadily until
cereal came along a couple of years back. And then from there,
it just exploded. And also because people were so sick and
tired of what they were getting with you they were missing
something and that's something is clearly solved by podcasting
where you can do other autonomous things while you're
listening. It's much more peaceful, restful than looking
at a social network. It's just a good experience and people like
it. Now we have something that is I think is going to push
podcasting down in the in the press for a little bit. And that
is clubhouse.
I'm glad you brought this up because I want to talk about
this.
And I'll
give you my opinion, then we need to bring in our guest
because I think they I think David has opinions on this. Oh,
man. You can don't don't no spoilers on the guests, man.
I'm sorry. I mean, Ned, Jim.
Every everybody has said well screw it. Let's bring him in.
And then I can prognosticate. And then we can hear. We can
hear his opinion. Ladies and gentlemen, podcasting. 2.0 was
very proud to welcome to the boardroom, that genius behind in
app community chapters from hyper catcher. David Norman.
Wow, I can't live up to that.
You do my man, you do live up to it.
Super excited to be here. Thanks a lot for having me.
No, do we love having you here you you've been along for quite
the ride. Gee, you know, we know so little about you. Really? I
guess. I'd love to know who is David Norman. Besides the the
guy who does Piper catcher
that's by design. He doesn't want you to know that he lives
in a cabin in Idaho.
I do. I do live pretty deep in the woods. So I'm, I'm pretty
excited that my internet is held up for this long. So you are in
Idaho? Is that where you are?
No, I'm actually north of Seattle about an hour north of
Seattle.
Oh, wow.
Yeah. So I'm a San Francisco Bay Area guy I grew up there. I
moved out here to actually have a chance at owning a home.
Right? Yes. Good idea that that is like, I think there's a lot
from the last two or three articles I've read. There's like
a mass exodus going on out of San Francisco right now.
Yeah, yeah. So I got I was a little bit ahead of the curve. I
got out a couple years ago. But I definitely kind of, I don't
want to say I told you so. But I get to the people who are still
there. But you know, I worked in San Francisco for a little
while. You know, taking the train into the city, I still
kind of lived outside of the kind of there's no way I was
gonna afford something inside of San Francisco. But just coming
into the city every day and just Seattle was actually a big
improvement to that. And a couple of ways.
Now, you've been in the tech business. Yeah, for a while or
Yeah, so I've been a mobile software engineer for about 10
years now. See before that, kind of get started. join the Navy
out of high school. I was there for five years. Oh, flying on.
air crew flying on PTC on Ryan's respirator nice. So that's kind
of my whole
kind of real cold there. Yeah.
But that that's kind of where I kind of see my intro, my intro
to podcasting and how I got involved. It's just we would be
on flights for hours at a time. And I would kind of take radio
shows with me on my iPod. And I think you had some tech back
then that would have helped make that better that I didn't know
about it. So I would just download a radio show on my iPod
and, and just bring it with me and just get as many as I
possibly could, at the time. And yeah, when I got out of the
Navy, I went to college and the Joe Rogan experience that kind
of started around that time. I got my first iPhone. And I was
just been, like, just huge in the podcasting since then. Nice
in that.
Yeah. And so did you just decide at some point, you know, I could
make this better?
Yeah, yeah. So I was a overcast user for a long time. And the
thing that actually sparked it in my mind was secretary at a
podcast that came out. We have been Thomson. Yep, exactly. And
so I subscribed to that. And he actually had this really cool
feature. I'd never seen it before, which was an integration
with overcast that would change the the album art based on the
chapters.
Ah, that daddy three tag, right?
Yep, yep, exactly. And he kind of I think people have been
doing that. But he kind of worked it into his to the actual
program. So he would actually mention at certain points, you
know, if you have the overcast app, at this point, you'll see
this diagram that I put on the screen, and you'll see that
you'll see it update. And I just thought like, why isn't there an
app kind of built with that integrated? as kind of the, you
know, the function of the app? Why does it have to be kind of
hacked into album art? And that's where I kind of came up
with the idea of hyper capture, and you know, bringing actual
full, integrated web experiences right into the right into the
podcast app.
Oh, that's interesting. So you're already heading in that
direction mentally before before the captors and all that and
transcripts and all that stuff were even thought of?
Yeah, I mean, a little bit. Yeah, I hadn't? Yeah, I think it
was, that was a huge revolution, when you kind of brought up the
idea of embedding it into the as a as a JSON attachment to the
RSS feed, because that enabled so much stuff that I hadn't even
been thinking about yet. That was huge. But yeah, I've been
trying to find ways to get people to use chapters more and
for a while now, because I just saw so much potential with them.
And there's just a kind of a big hurdle to integrating them
because he had to actually integrate it directly into the
mp3 file.
Yeah, I want to give you a an official award for something you
did. Yeah. And I picked this, this thinking up from, from Dave
Weiner, the idea that you are authoring in the same
application you use to look at the runtime. And the just the
whole concept of a podcast app, this is the first interactive
feature, I think ever that has truly been deployed. And this is
clearly an interactive feature. Where you just listening to a
podcast, you can say, Oh, hold on a sec, I want to suggest a
chapter here. And you hit it and it goes off into the into the
magic back end. And then the Podcast Producer can approve
those change those, you know, adapt them, whatever that is.
It's a groundbreaking idea. It's google docs for chapters. You
know, it's it's really, really I love it. It's so smart. And it's
given me this, this almost insatiable desire to want to I
want to produce the whole thing. I want to be doing wiziwig
podcast publishing.
Right. To some degree, it
makes sense. Not entirely, but you know, to some degree, it
just makes sense. Right? Yeah. I
appreciate you. That was entirely your idea, I'd say and
actually adding the men or adding podcast chapters from the
app. Community chapters, I remember hearing you talk about
it on a podcasting 2.0 podcast.
I can do that, man. I'm giving it all to you. I'm giving it to
you.
And so yeah, that was an that definitely improved the
experience a lot, I think, and opened up the door to allow
anybody to add that. The thing I kind of had some hesitation
about that early on, because there are kind of apps that have
done this. I think you've also talked about that. Cloud. I
can't think of the name of it right now. But there are apps,
web apps that allow you to basically add comments to an
audio file and then people use it for music. They use it for
podcasts. Yeah, and but that's just kind of, there's no,
there's no interaction from the creator there. And that's really
what I what I wanted to include was an ability for someone
actually the who was producing it to go in and say, yeah, this
is a useful comment or this is a useful point to add in as well.
It's, it's super cool these types of feedback mechanisms.
Because I think for that very reason that you want to use it
as, as the owner of the of the content itself, you want to
produce it, but what I've learned from from day one, and
certainly with the value for value model of how you can make
revenue off of creative works in today's in a in a new economy, a
new digital currency enabled environment. It's like, you can
do so much now. With this interactivity between the users
and the applications, and they become a part of the product,
this this is the magic. It's like contribute to your product.
I people think it doesn't, it doesn't pertain to their
podcasts. But every podcast can do this can have if you are not
activating your audience, to be a part of the show somehow. And
it can be as simple as starring something but that has to work
across all the all the apps, or as intricate as a as a chapter
with art and a link. You know, so there's work involved, but
and the proof is in the pudding people raise their hand
immediately. Holy crap, how can I How can I How can I
participate? I mentioned hyper catcher yesterday, I have no
agenda, you see any uptick in downloads?
I haven't checked the analytics for it recently. But I have one
thing I have noticed that's gone up. Just in the last couple of
days of API usage.
Yeah, your AWS bill?
Well, that's always that's been up for a while.
Well, but if seriously, for one moment, how much is it costing
you from because and for everyone to understand, for
three of my shows, which is all I have? I'm using the Dred
Scott, he manages the whole thing with hyper Capture Studio
on the back end. And but I'm by link to your API when Pete when
an app requests the chapter file, so that's putting a load
on you. And until we have, you know, l SATs or some other thing
enabled, I'm going to put you in the value block because it's
costing you money. Well, it's.
So there's a couple things. One, it's not it's not a ton of
money, it was kind of trending in that direction. Where I was
getting a little worried for a little while, I think I posted
it
Not exactly. That's not a good thing
in there. So part of the problem was I just, you know, I'm a
mobile developer, and I haven't been building backends for too
long. And so there were simple things like caching that I
wasn't even doing. I was hitting the database for every request,
which was super expensive. So after implementing caching, that
that helped a lot. So that was trending towards a pretty scary
number. Right now. It's it's about $100 a month. But that's
kind
of witness young man. That's unacceptable. day there's
also Dave, there's the other side of this, you guys are
already helping actually because this is entirely I'm sure the no
agenda audience and and podcasting 2.0 developers
helping out with this. So I've got a monthly subscription for
my app. That's, you know, I've had the app out for a year now.
And just in like the last few months, it's it's been
increasing a lot the number of people who are actually
subscribed to only $1 $1 a month, but I'm making about $33
a month right now and that's
matching numbers.
Okay, suggestion on that side of things, you really need multiple
subscription levels, if at all possible. I don't know if Apple
lets you do that. But like, I mean, seriously, if you know, I
did, I subscribe to it. And to fabric catcher. I mean, if you
had if you had like 10 bucks a month or 20 bucks a month thing,
you know, I would do it today. I just can't. Yeah, you need you
need to allow people to pay you more money. Yes. Which days?
Yes.
Dave? Can we? So first of all?
David's
No, it has to be in the in the split for us. We got to put him
in our value block.
Okay. Yeah. Put him next to Dred Scott.
Yeah, right away. I mean, right away. I'll
do that. Well, no. Does that David, do you have a note? Do
you have a I have a lightning node.
Yeah, so I was actually playing around with the LM pay API
recently. So I've been able to set up a wallet there and local
wallets. I've been using blue wallet on my
right. Do they have I don't think lm pay has key send
receive enable yet or does it? They do but you have to have
Guillemot said you have the We talk to Tim and you have to have
a wallet ID and a custom record. That's the way it works on the
incoming keyset. Which is, but we're, we're working on that
right now. Because turns out Sphinx needs the same thing.
They need another, they need a key value pair custom key value
pair in order to route
it past their main node. Okay, so that is that lightning, the
lightning labs fix that everyone's been talking about
and working on.
Not sure. No, no, I think I don't think so. I think this is
just two different use cases that happen to coincide at the
same time.
Okay. All right. So it's coming, David. Cool. value is coming.
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. It's crazy. Not to pay for
that.
I'm super excited about the about the LMP integration stuff.
That's that's the man before
you know, you're making $3 a month. I mean, hold on this 10%
I mean, it's just got to do that times 1000 baby just got to get
some people using your app. I'm telling you about this. I got
none of you guys charge enough. I mean, seriously, like
admission they've been beaten into submission by by Silicon
Valley overlords telling them your your your 99 cents. Yeah,
shut up over there and sit in the corner and pay me 1000 for
the dev kit.
This year. 1000 for the dev kit, and you don't you charge more
than 99 cents. I mean, come on Robin piece of crap.
Yeah, I've let the scales fall from vineis.
Mom, I'm on martin about this too. Like, you know, and and
Mitch, at pod verse like at a bought mitches thing. I'm like,
Wait a second. Why can I only give you like a buck? I mean,
like this is not right. Yes. Yeah. At least give me some
tears here.
Exactly. No, you're exactly exactly right. So what we need
to worry about
clubhouse. See, see if it's right in though this was the
amount of me up because the with the A Let me tell you what it
fits in my head is with hyper catcher, like you have you have
true interactivity with the product. The product itself is
actually changing. When the audience participates in
chapters and that kind of thing. But with something like
clubhouse, it's more like it has the appearance of interactivity.
But it's really it's still there's there's the product,
which is sort of up on the day, as you know, up here where you
can't get to it. And then everybody else gets to sort of
comment and be and chat down here. It's, it has the, it has
this sort of appearance of interactivity where but you
still can't really reach the product. Maybe is that stupid?
No.
I'll go back to my analogy, because this is very consistent
since September since we started this, even before that, I would
say just in the research portion of it. This has been a parallel,
it's like the simulator rebooted. And podcasting is is
starting all over again. But it's an accelerated timeline,
things are happening much faster. And there's obvious
reasons for that, compared with 16 1718 years ago. We've got
tools. So after the initial explosion of podcasting, then
came the social networks, and podcasting grew slowly, slowly,
slowly underneath all this hype until people were sick and tired
of it. And they needed something else. It was also people had
been bingeing their asses off watching Netflix, oh my god, I
can and Hulu, I can watch all five seasons of Breaking Bad,
you know, back to back. And people were burned out. They
were burned out on on all of that, and I think a little bit
of algo burnout perhaps and so they and all of a sudden here
was a show serial, and no, no, no, you have to wait. You can't
hear what's going on until the next episode, which is next
week, and people were hot. And they started to just go nuts
about it. So here we have the perfect storm, where people are
resorting to the final Bastion, they have a free speech actual
speech. The social networks are not serving them anymore. It's
it's either not enough characters or there's too much
being algos, whatever it is. They're hunkering to be a part
of conversations and podcast. This is really in my mind.
You're going to see a lot of new podcasts coming online because
this is podcasting. For poppers, who don't want to take the or
don't feel don't feel the need. It's nothing wrong with it. feel
the need to figure out what it takes and they end of course,
this is the complete analog to Twitter, there are celebrities
here so I can get some of that celebrity juice. Because that
and this is the mistake that the marketing this, as you know,
celebrity driven, you can talk to the CEOs or to the, the the
captains of industry. It's really exciting. And you can
start your own room and know that at the end of the day,
what's wrong with this and why people if they don't leave,
because they're not being satisfied and find that they can
do things, and maybe more interactive things with
podcasts, which will be building around them. They will drop off,
or they will be deep platformed that's coming. And God knows
what a Gora who is the technology provider is a Chinese
company. God knows what they're doing. And no one talks about
the talks about that this is a Shanghai company who provides
the entirety they provided for a lot of other apps, by the way,
any voice enabled app stuff, it's a Chinese company under the
hood. So enjoy all that shit, everybody. So it's going to take
several months. I don't know how long. You know, this is why you
get Mark Cuban. He's a venture capital guy. He's the guy that
said see something and does the most despicable thing, which
these VC guys always do is I got a much better version of that in
the hopper is coming out of the lab. Fuck you Cuban put up or
shut up, get out of my face with that. That's really annoying.
And then I have seen, and then I'll end here and then we and I
stopped them and I apologize. We'll stop monopolizing our
guests time. I have seen hardcore bitcoiners you know,
the young guys 2530. You know, the millennials, the ones doing
the work, the ones who are truly changing the world. And they're
sucked up like, hey, let's do a let's do a Bitcoin clubhouse.
And we'll do it every Thursday. I'm like, okay, so one, it's
called a podcast, what you want to do, and you just, you're
trying to find an instant audience to how can you a a
fighter on the tip of freedom of financial freedom of sovereignty
of finances, want to put your ass inside a walled garden
propped up by China?
100% agree. Yeah. Because I don't know how you feel about
this. David, I mean, you've been on clubhouse. I haven't been on
it. But it feels like the beginning. Just like Adam said,
it, just like Adam said, it just feels like the beginning of so
many things we've seen before. If you've been around for, you
know, 20 years, we always see that it's it's exclusive
exclusivity driven access to the celebrity or access to the big
to the big guy. And then after a while, I mean, it's just like a
new restaurant pops up. You always have huge portions for a
great price. You know, four months later, the portions get
smaller and the price goes up. I mean, like, there's no, this is
going to this is not going to continue like it is I mean, the
big guys are not going to stay. I mean, like, VC guys are gonna
sit there on clubhouse for three hours a day. That's
not gonna happen. I'm sitting in the parallel timeline. I can
tell you what's next. Next will be the clubhouse fail whale.
It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. Oh,
I've gotten it. I've gotten it multiple times. Musk was in a
room the other day and you cannot get into that room. It
was it was impossible. There you go. That's that's actually one
of the things that's starting to pop up is kind of the
journalists starting to get upset that when they can't get
into a room much like Adam, when you're talking about Kara
Swisher his initial reactions,
right? Yes. Ooh, how do we contain this evil shit?
Right? That's, that's a take that's starting to pop up more
and more. Number one, how do we contain it? And then why, you
know, why isn't it being blocked wire and people being d
platformed. For saying things already. But you know, I don't
have access to certain individuals that have blocked me
or or I can't get into the room because it's full. Right? Which,
which is why
I I dedicate myself to the to this generation to make places
that are free and you can't be kicked out denied access, etc. I
mean, this is beautiful. And I love seeing the same journalists
going writing and I'm going on television saying well, you
know, where's the social control over this stuff? But still
screws are like, Whoa, we're on Wow, man. This is great. We're
doing something important. I can't spend a moment on
clubhouse. I'm thinking about every app developer How can I
make the lives better? Get them to get them paid?
When is when is Dan Benjamin gonna get a fire up the lawyers
and go out After cube and for fireside I mean, that's clearly
I mean, clearly trademark issue there. So fireside Yes.
I presume he he trademarked it.
Got to come on Dan.
Ready has enough beer man. But you know, man, that's that's a
tough path baby. That's a tough path he's got to find someone
who wants to take Yeah, I mean, what will wind up happening best
case scenario if Cuban is sincere? And I've been through
it it's a Lanham Act lawsuit have had it with mtv.com. I've
been exposed to these terms and in the courtroom itself, as well
as a copyright and trademark recently. with Laura Logan has
no agenda, you had a trademark dispute. And we actually like
her and we said, okay, look, you can, you can use that that's
okay. But you can't just say you can't have plastered on an ad,
Laura Logan, no agenda, you got to like do the whole sentence.
So we have no rules about how, how they can use that. But we
were just lucky we have. We have several lawyers amongst the
producers. And one of them did this for us pro bono. And that
would have cost us 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of dollars. So,
so best case scenario is they make you go away with some
money, which can make you happy, but you lose the brand you
worked for.
What do you think, David? What do you think is like it around
the clubhouse sort of model? It's like, you know, one of
these guys pops up. And then there's five copycats. I mean,
is there is I think, okay, from my thinking. And I think Kevin
fan at buzzsprout mentioned this to me the other day that if the
really the next phase of the namespace or podcasting 2.0 it
really probably shouldn't be something along the lines of
chat discussion, interactivity, you know, and I really have no,
sort of, that's one of those things where you can you can
think of like five different directions that could go. And
I'm not sure which one is the right one. And it's a really
super complicated idea. I mean, not to throw you on the spot.
But I mean, do you have sort of any inkling of how you would
begin to sort of fry that fish?
Yeah, I've been thinking about it a little bit as well. And
yeah, I've kind of come to the same conclusion right now. Like
it's kind of a different beast, in some ways. It's, it's not
really something I have a lot of experience with. It would be
interesting, though. Just to defend clubhouse a little bit,
though, not that I disagree with anything that's been said. But
no, you can't defend anything we don't like, Okay. That's not
allowed.
There are some interesting things about clubhouse. So one
of the things is the fact that journalists are trying, you
know, to silence people. The reason is, because it's it's
really difficult to do that right now. So there are some
wild conversations going on there that, you know,
how does the moderation work? Does it does the moderator have
a panel? And they can mute and unmute? And how does that work
with hundreds or 1000s of people? What are the limits?
I've never I've never used that. I have seen the screenshots. I
know what it does.
Yeah, it's super interesting. I'd definitely recommend just
like checking it out. But it's, it's it's pretty interesting
moderation style. So you've got your speakers who are
moderators, and they can, they actually have control, that'd be
like maybe one or two moderators for a room, and they can
actually control who is brought up on stage. And if you're on
stage, then you can talk you can't necessarily bring anyone
else on stage. But you can talk, you can unmute your microphone,
that sort of thing. And the moderation side of it. So the
moderators can obviously remove someone, the amount of room,
keep them from speaking, but then other people in the room
can also go and report your account and eventually get you
blocked. So people can block you. And if you're blocked, then
you can't join a room with that person that's running the room.
So there's some interest that's kind of where some of the issues
are coming up. Right now. We're Taylor llorens, a New York Times
reporter was blocked by Marc Andreessen. He was in a room
with Elan musk speaking and she couldn't join the room. So she
had a kind of a, she was upset about that.
And what's interesting is, you know, I heard that Ilan thing I
heard two different you know, because eventually they just get
put on YouTube or whatever, and you're able to,
exactly.
I like Ilan, but, you know, he was talking to Vlad from Robin
Hood, and Leon doesn't know shit about what he's talking about.
He doesn't know about the DTC doesn't know about the
settlements that happened. He really doesn't understand. So,
you know, to me, it was if anything really bad, because a
lot of people got to hear the spin from Vlad the CEO which
Ilan had no way of of Get no parry for it. Right? But you
can't expect him to because it's not necessarily his field of
expertise. But that's a great way for people. It's like, I
don't want to see sports people interviewing Bill Gates, you
know, Kobe Bryant, not Kobe Bryant sorry. Maybe that was
actually I think Kobe did interview Bill Gates before the
accident. I was like, I don't want to see that. But anyway, so
that's, that's fine. That I guess that works. But just seems
simple. But it was the excitement is the excitement,
you can raise your hand and maybe get picked on stage? Can
you whisper amongst other people in the room? Can you say
something to somebody else?
Yeah, that I wish there was some sort of in room chat feature. So
if you're not on stage, you're just listening. That's all you
can do, besides raise your hand and ask to get on stage, which
you'll be ignored on a big room like that. But I would
definitely say one of the most interesting experiences I've had
on there, there was a room discussing some of the issues in
San Francisco. And some of the kind of crime issues that have
been happening there. And kind of, there was a lot of talk
about the DA in San Francisco, Jason bodeen. And so there's
room with some VCs kind of discussing it. And someone told
him about it. And he actually joined the room. So as they were
kind of discussing it, and kind of blaming him for the issues,
which, which I, which I do think he's responsible for a lot of
them. But I thought it was kind of cool that he actually joined
the room and kind of they brought him up on stage and join
the conversation, where they had a kind of a big conversation
about the issues, specifically. Exactly, exactly. So
the and if I were to do something for clubhouse, I would
take this podcast and record each of us on a separate track,
I'd play that back, and have each track go to an account in a
room with me onstage, so the three of us are on stage, and
this conversation is taking place. But to the audience, it
looks like we're on stage, and we're each speaking
individually. And the appeal there I think is very, very
powerful. There's two things one, it's a great sample. So if
you could only skim through podcast episodes that fast and
get that kind of an immediate hit. Oh, okay, this is what this
is about. It's almost like being at a conference, where you go to
one session house is boring, I'm gonna leave, get out of that
session, go to another one. So you're, you're in there. And
then when something is really interesting, you have a
theoretical opportunity that you get to participate in that. I
think the chance is obviously quite small, depending on the
topic, the the panel and the size of the audience. But it is
a model that is important for us to look at that ability to join
in now. That's not the nature of podcasts, which is real time.
But there's that need people want to participate and you see
it in. In Super chats on YouTube, you see it with the
with the like, buttons, it's all all this feedback that we have
completely failed on as as, as a as a protocol.
Yeah, I actually see what you guys just did the other day with
the zoom call about Elon pay was pretty much a clubhouse room
like,
correct. Pretty cool, right? I mean, they're talking jitsi is
the same as clubhouse to me. Right? It really is. It's just
but make no mistake. clubhouse along with cashapp are the
blackest apps in the app store. And I got turned on to clubhouse
by Moe, he told me months ago, he says, Adam, you got to keep
your eye on this shit. And there's a couple of reasons for
it. They're also paying people. This is this is another part of
the launch strategy. Pay people. That's the library's doing that
too late Library's doing that too, you know, they've got $100
million. They've given away grants, they're paying people to
use their platform. And, and, ultimately, you got to have pain
before you before you learn. And a lot of people are going to go
through the pain of being deep platformed having their you
know, something taken away, getting kicked off being limited
features going away, whatever it is, you don't control it. So
it's just but the analog is, that'll be with us for several
months, people are gonna be talking about that shit, and
then we can build when they're all done, then we'll be there
ready for them? And I think these community features so I
tell you guys a dream that I had.
Yeah, before. Okay. All right, here we go.
The dream was that if I wanted to place a comment on a show I
was listening to. I'm going to give you the Adam Curry Rube
Goldberg version. I would in my app, I type a little comment. By
hit go. It sends a payment a lightning payment to the to the
splits to buy The podcast or the app also gets it of course. And,
and my comment is in that payment, regardless of the size
of the payment, which will be determined. It then is
immediately picked up by a bot or an API or something else that
posts that comment to a telegram channel, an IRC chat, or back to
the app itself. And not only do you have a comment placed in
context of when you were listening, you can also get all
those when you play the show back again. So pretty much like
Sphinx is doing. Only we still have to figure out that one
magical piece in the middle. And that would work theoretically,
across all apps. It's just you have to sync up the the time
codes, and maybe that flows into a separate file. But even before
you get that into the app itself, I thought it would just
be cool. Even just have a telegram channel that updates
when someone comments or when someone boosts or when someone
does something else. I mean, that by itself would be a start.
Sounds doable?
Yeah. But do you do like the idea that it is doable? Is that
something that
what I'm hearing? What are your thoughts? David, what I'm
hearing? Is that is that you? You could do this with some sort
of, or what makes the most sense to me is some sort of DHT or, or
blockchain or something like, because otherwise, you're just
going to be left with somebody runs somebody running somebody,
somebody running something. Yep, exactly. But can you see the
steps to get where we need to be?
I mean, it kind of sounds like community chapters, but with a
paid component. Were you
told that that's the beauty the beauty of the paid component? Is
it eliminates bullshit? Because if you got high bullshit on your
comments, oh, it's 100 satoshis to comment. Right? Oh, all of a
sudden, people are gonna be a little more careful.
I think that could eventually be the thing. Like I think Hi,
bullshit. issues is definitely why SoundCloud comments aren't
very useful. And that was the app I was trying to think of
earlier. They got a SoundCloud Yes,
exactly. On the tie. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Right. But then, you know, I'm also I think, getting people to,
to leave comments right now or community chapters in an apps to
begin with, is faster. Also, I think adding the payments on to
begin with, I think there just needs to be adoption of getting
people to realize that they can do that. And, you know, getting
people to, to get used to adding comments in some fashion. And
then I think once once you actually have that part of
itself, where people are wanting to do it, then adding in the
payments would probably be something that SoundCloud should
have done a while ago to bring up the quality of their
comments.
Yeah, and I would, I would just say, I'm not waiting for
anything. I'm gonna keep pushing everybody on these things.
Because what have I seen the chapters is the best example
chapters and location and transcript. I mean, it's blown
me away. And, and there's adoption, you know, but it if we
wait for that chicken in the egg, as long as you've got a
couple of Long You got one app and one feed Tool Company, and
you've or tool entity and you've got one creator, you just keep
showing people how to do it, and then eventually people go, Ah,
okay, yeah, I'd like that. Or I have a different use case, or I
have a reason for it. Everything falls in place. The the
onboarding of lightning now I've been I've been following
everything very closely. onboarding is being done for us,
hello, Visa, hello, MasterCard. I mean, these guys are in the
game now.
They're just, they just, they're lagging on lightning, though.
That's what bothers me. Ah, it's but that you know, that's all
gonna happen. Because all we have, essentially the only way
that we have the only on simplistic onboarding, onto
lightning right now is strike. But when I say simplistic, I
mean, like, I mean, I mean, simplistic, not just from a user
experience standpoint, but from but from a financial, monetary
tax, all that stuff standpoint, because once you get into the
beauty of strike is, is I can get, I can pull 20 bucks off my
debit card into my strike wallet, and then I can send it
to another strike user and it goes straight. And it never, it
never leaves. The Fiat system. It never it never gets. You
don't ever see that as being converted to lightning, or I can
send it to another lightning app and it becomes lightning. So
that you know, the problem with with other apps is you get to
convert it to lightning.
I'm just just going to disagree because, okay, it's all it's all
too. taking place there are people are into bitcoin already
if they've already purchased Bitcoin, it's a small leap,
you're still thinking, like my wife to a degree, you know, and
I know that, you know, they're using plaid as their middleware
for strike and visa tried to buy plaid, they was anti
competitive, they weren't allowed to. So they said, fuck
it, we need to do that ourselves. So it's all going to
take place that onboarding, I'm just not worried about. In fact,
I really don't want those users right now. I want users who at
least have bought a Bitcoin, have maybe seen a QR code, kind
of have some clue about stuff, but definitely have seen the
value or, or that it represents value. And then it's a small
step, I think from getting them to a lightning wallet or get
cash app is going to do this cash app is going to do it. By
the time we're ready, the first ones will be making it easier
besides strike I just did everything about this is saying
this is how it's gonna happen. And the zap wallet, although not
appropriate. For someone who doesn't have a node, I think
they're doing it the right way. And actually, have you looked at
the Phoenix wallet from that's the French guys. I mean, they're
obfuscating everything. And this just send receive, there's no no
real lightning talk. It's one balance, they don't separate it,
you know, you put your money and now they charge a fee for
everything you're doing. But that's that's completely in the
background, you show up with your bank, you show up with your
credit card, your debit card, they take care of the rest,
that's all happening. It's and it's and it's rolling out very,
very quickly. And it has to look at the market.
You know, one thing I think is interesting about about hyper
Catcher in in regards to all of this talk is the UI within hyper
catcher is a diff, it's a different experience than a
typical podcast app. Like when you when you boot up hyper
catcher it took the first time I opened it took me a minute to
figure out what was going on, because I'm used to just this
inbox style. Okay, you're in, okay, here is your list of
podcasts. When you get into hyper capture the UI, it looks
like sort of like a, I don't know, almost like a toolbox or
not, it's not the right example. It's like being on a on a on
somebody's personal website, where they have like, you know,
like a blog, roll over here and sign up for the newsletter here.
And here's the main content. And like they have, there's
different sections of your sort of main home UI. And I think
there's a little bit of an advantage here, when it comes to
adding on extra pieces, like we're talking about, like
lightning, or chit chat features or maybe soundbites, there's
like an advantage that you have, because you've your your UI is
already laid out in such a way where people expect there to be
different, like different pieces that you can interact with on
the UI.
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some experimentation going on
there. So I've got a lot of different things that, you know,
you wouldn't normally finding a podcast app that I think makes
it a little confusing sometimes. But it also gives me the ability
to kind of expand and try out different things. So like
newsletters is the newest thing.
Yeah. Like, see, that's what's thinking. I was like, You got
newsletters there. And then like Adam was just talking about with
with, like, if you integrate a wallet, pay? Yeah. It's just
like, our new little section where it's like, okay, you're
always I've always just see my lightning balance there. And not
only do I
agree with what you're saying about that, Dave. But there's, I
think, again, David hit on something with his UI that that
I'm just now realizing where some ideas came from. So if you
look at his podcasts and episodes, which is I had kind of
that was for me, the thing I had to figure it out. It's like,
Okay, what am I seeing here? What is this list? And, and I
use pod friend a lot. And I think what we're seeing as a
model, besides the traditional inbox is, here's your most
recent updated episodes, which is just a running list
hierarchy, and you kind of have a breadcrumbs. Separate from
that. And here's what you listen to most recently. Right?
Something like that seems to be evolving as some universal
interface that people are being drawn to. Do you feel that way,
dude? Yeah, I
mean, that's definitely what I was what I was going for, I
actually just kind of built it the way that I wanted a podcast
app to work. So whenever I would open a podcast app that I'd
normally have to set it up to show me like a rolling. There's
a lot of hot podcast apps that are actually really full
featured in this area that that hyper catcher is not and that
you can set up different types of subscripts lists, you can
have the different lists, sorted in different ways based on the
podcast or latest episode. And, you know, I just kind of built
it in one way. And one way to just be lazy. And the other way
is just like, I feel like it's the best way to, to present
podcasts to the user is just kind of a rolling list of
Alright, so if you subscribe to a podcast, you've got the no
agenda podcast, the podcasting 2.0 podcasts, you can go to
those individual pages and see the whole episode list. And
that's kind of a separate experience, or you can go to
your subscriptions, and then you're just gonna get a rolling
list of whatever is new. So you just open that in the morning,
and you should see the latest podcasts, exactly those from
those apps. Exactly. Like, yeah, it wasn't necessarily an
intentional, you know, thinking that this is where, you know,
everything is going, but it was kind of, that's the way I wanted
it to work. And, and I just wanted this little setup as
possible to get started with it.
So the hyper Capture Studio, which creates the JSON, which
comes from the API, which is costing you about 100 bucks a
month, and you're welcome. How prepared Are you in the way we
operate here is the days of free are over. That doesn't mean that
you can't get access to something we still think value
for value is important. But I want to help you evaluate this
model. Because right, so now it's no agenda show, which
probably pushes the most traffic to the API. But what if three
more show up or five more or a whole bunch of other people
really start digging this idea? How do we set you up for
success? And is that something we can solve with the value
payments? Or do we need to look at something more distributed?
Or you tell me maybe that maybe it is the way to go is to get
rid of because I just, I've run services? You know, Dave, tell
us about the running podcast. index.org, how much there is of
requests, and people have questions and things and you
know, there's a lot of work.
Yeah, I mean, it's two, three emails, you know, sometimes a
day of people needing you know, hey, as I changed an episode
from, you know, 300 episodes back in my feed, and it didn't
update in the index, can you? Can you hear what am I doing
wrong? It's like, I don't know, let me go look, you know, it's
there's a lot of there's a lot of pain points. Yeah, I
mean, part of my hesitation is definitely like those issues. My
hesitation that charge people is because once I start charging, I
feel like then there's gonna be an expectation of things should
work.
Let me say this that, David, I know that feeling. Yeah. And I
think you need to get over that failing at because the thing
about it is like, you can't, there is that mindset that
exists where it says I can't start charging people money
until this thing is perfect. But you that I don't like that,
because you, you know, the thing is you're doing you are doing,
you're presenting this product, and it is what it is, and you
need, you know, you've decided that it has value. And if they
decide that it doesn't have value, will they'll just go do
something else. I mean, they don't, you know, you don't have
that, that mindset, I know it exists. And I've had it before
too. And I you know, I have it, you know, with other things, but
like, I think there is this idea, we do need to get over
this idea that you can't like, once you like look at the See, I
don't mean go on and on about this, but but look at something
like we look at all the stuff that we buy on a daily basis.
That works half the time, and infuriating. I mean, look at
look at things like the perfect example. Two weeks ago, you
know, I'm trying to get my 10 year old daughter to try and get
her set up with my Minecraft, you know, and we paid 30 bucks
for Minecraft or whatever. And so, you know, she's had it for a
while. Well, it just wouldn't work. I mean, I spent like three
hours trying to fix this thing. Before I finally just said,
screw it. I blew the whole thing away started over she lost her
world all this kind of stuff. Like that was no daddy. I know.
That was all night long. And for and I had paid $30 for this
thing. And it didn't work. So that's the thing is is I mean
things things just don't work.
here's a here's an analogy. That is worth looking@voltage.io
Graham. Yeah, he charges money. We pay him we bought a node for
a year from him a special beefed up note I have in my personal
note, which is 10 bucks a month or maybe 12. springs, I couldn't
give they would not take our money. Now I don't think it's a
money issue. But you know, so we're just blowing out channels,
you know, we're doing that 333 to 330 3000 SATs like boom
channels clogged too much money, you know, it wasn't expected. So
there's all these things that come into play. When you charge
people use the service, different And I think that
Sphinx might have been able to grow smoother if they're
people's own pin on the line.
Yeah. You know, yeah,
I mean, so I think I actually had a Microsoft, or Minecraft
Lost Worlds situation recently, where Dred Scott was working on
updating some chapters from the agenda, switch tabs came back
and all of his those sorts of things that things that like
really worry me. So I actually figured that one out. I haven't
I haven't updated that yet. So there are a couple of like,
major issues that I want to get to before switching on some sort
of payment for that, because I feel terrible when things like
that happen.
Let's see, you know, I'll drive this point again, though, that
that that situation is gonna suck, no matter if they pay or
if they don't pay, and you don't get here it is you don't get off
the hook. Just pay, you're still gonna get an email about it, and
you're still gonna have to deal with it. And would it be nice to
be paid for having to deal with it rather than not be paid?
Yeah, good point.
Good point. Well, I signed up for lm pay, and I've got a like
a wall a paywall now, so the easiest thing I could do is kind
of throw that on there and see, well, yeah, I can definitely do
that. So I think I'll be doing that soon. So hey, we'll get
your Yeah, so someone can I actually just tested it out, I
was able to sign up for the wallet on Ellen pay. shows me a
QR code. I just take my my breeze wallet. Yeah, my blue
wallet, whatever. It's pointed at it, send us some SATs. And it
was just instantly there.
That's great. Yeah, but
what do you want a paywall?
Oh, that's just what it's called. I guess, I guess it
wouldn't actually be a paywall that would block you from it
actually will let it I guess it does actually block the site. So
I will block the URL. Yeah, yeah, I don't really want to do
that. I just want to, you know, be able to use that. That same
QR code in some way and just kind of throw it on the page and
say, Hey, if you want to buy me a coffee or something, oh,
yeah, no, that's called a hit. They have a different one for
that. Hold on.
Okay. It's like a tip jar type thing.
Yeah, they have a different name for it. That's the one you want.
It's also from Ellen pay. I'll tell you what it is. Okay. You
have the
see the faucet? False. A false. That's the other way around.
Right. I think that, but you can do there was one you can do. I
think it's ln URL. That's what you want. Elena URL, and I think
your blue wallet may have that already. You can create an ln
URL, which is just a standalone almost second is what I call it
is the homeless person's QR code. I mean, it's a joke. Here
paywall wallet, okay, so we got to figure this out. But there's
a way there's a way to do it in ln pay, where you have either a
single URL, which brings up a QR code or one QR code, and you
don't have to do this Nope. The paywall is a separate
functionality, they also do. Okay, so you just want it if you
just want a standard
thing that people can send money to that's it. This is a perfect
example of something that I go back and forth with, okay, so
you've got, you've got a service, and you have you got a
pay wall there, or some sort of, like, you got a decision to
make, you've got you can say, Okay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna
pay wall this thing. And you gotta, you've got to pay
something to get in, or I'm going to just give a tip jar?
Well, you know, the understand, understand the thinking of
having the tip jar mindset, it's like, Okay, well, I don't, I
don't want to keep anybody out. I don't want to put the burden,
the burden of entry too high and that sort of thing. But then
there is something to be said for just straight up pay walling
this thing and saying, Okay, if you're gonna get in here and use
this, I really need me know, 20 SATs, or something like that.
And there's, there's two reasons for that. There's like, not, you
know, the obvious one is that you, you know, you need some
revenue, the other but the other less obvious one may be that it
also forces people into the lightning ecosystem. And if we
think, you know, like, at least from my mindset, if I think once
somebody has a lightning wallet, now they're able to participate
in things like this much easier, because it's really just QR code
scan, boom done, rather than Okay, here's a paywall. Now you
get to go to PayPal, now you get a good result blah, blah, blah,
blah. And it's like some five minute process because like the,
the beauty of the Yeah, the beauty of the lightning stuff is
that it is so damn fast.
Yeah, and just easy scan and right on your phone, but you
need to be able to copy the URL to whatever it is. Copy that.
Yeah. So I mean, like there's this, there's this sort of dual
uptake issue where you have where you can Kinda almost want
to force people. If you say, Okay, stop. I know you may not
know anything about lightning, but go get us go get strike and
come back in five seconds, it's gonna take you just as long to
download, strike and put up your debit card than it is to get
through the PayPal process. Anyway, it's just something I
was thinking about.
Also,
you know, as a, as a user of the technology, that that's why you
should get a part of the value block. I mean, it's, yeah, it's
a couple bucks now. But it could be 300 bucks in a couple months
from now.
Yeah, exactly.
That's them, that's the fairest way to me is like, Hey, I'm
using it, I'll throw you in the block. Or the way would be even
preferable. If someone uses your app, you know, you'd get, you'd
get a different value or whatever. I mean, because of
course, anyone can use it. And, you know, ultimately, some kind
of ln stats, paid API is the way to go for stuff like that. But
right, anyways, maybe shouldn't digress too much, but just
saying that Wow, man.
This is the episode where we try to brainstorm every way possible
to get David paid.
So just send me an invoice, man, send me send me a lightning
invoice I want to
consult I want to send them
right away. It sounds like I should be paying you guys for
the for the
because you have a real hard cost here. You know this, that
it's it's an existing cost and you just have to be paid for
that just doesn't go away for me. I'm actually
willing to pay a little bit more. So I actually have a
feature on there. That's a little bit hidden for anyone
using transcripts on their podcasts. And I don't think many
people have taken advantage of yet I've have it blocked at a
certain amount. But so if you're using the podcasting 2.0
transcripts, and use hyper Capture Studio, when you load it
up in there, you'll see a special button to generate
podcast chapters using the GPT three open API's
not Yeah, we'll be testing that. Sure. Yeah.
So that's in there. Now, it costs a little bit of money
every time. Cool. That's also good. Depending on how large the
podcast is. So I've got a gated so I don't spend it doesn't just
constantly charge my credit card or someone discovers it and
wants to do their entire podcast backlog. But, but I am willing
to pay a little bit more just to get some more chapters out there
and get some more testing on that if anyone wants to try that
out. That's that's something that I've been super interested
in recently and working on machine learning and how you can
kind of generate more generate additional content from a
podcast transcript. I think there's something pretty
interesting there. So
I'm just looking I'm just in the studio now because I hadn't seen
that. Where's this hidden feature? You bastard?
So it should be at the bottom? I sure hope now that you're
actually trying it that it's that it's working but if you
have a transcript associated
Yeah, generate chapters from transcript what the hell bastard
Okay,
so what do you do good drips got a job?
Well, no, I mean, what actually is the opposite is you get a
whole bunch of chapters which is much easier for him to remove or
just have to add artwork I think it's
great. Oh, yeah. What if it was if it was good enough it's a
it's not quite up to snuff yet nowhere near as good as Dred
Scott adding content and chapter markers. But I'm hoping
eventually it will be so that's that's something I've been kind
of working on recently in my spare time. In addition to
maintaining hyper catcher and in the studio.
I saw some of your a little while back, he posted some of
the epic fails of GPT three
Yeah.
A when a dress to dress to do stuff you get you get some
pretty raunchy stuff sometimes.
Yeah, exactly. So that's one thing I've been kind of
experimenting with. There are better models out there for I'm
gonna try it
on this on this episode, when we're done. This episode is
going to be auto generated drab. Heads up, buddy. Had no idea
what's coming down.
You know, I think I think this is a I don't know, I think this
is good. I think this is good for, you know, for just I'm
trying to figure out what I'm what I'm trying to say here. I
think it's just good that that you're trying to throw
everything sort of at the wall and see what sticks.
I love. I love very much, very much doing that. Yes, I
love that. I love that. That's the sort of experimentation that
I think has been lost with, like, sort of the corporate
Veep, you know, the VC, you gotta you gotta check with your
stakeholders and make sure that they're on board with. It's
like, you know, that sort of garage level, throw everything
at the wall and see what sticks kitchen sink type thing. It's so
refreshing to see It's like, nowadays we don't see things
features being released until they've been gone over with a
fine tooth comb. And there's, you know, and they're all slick,
and I'm just and then and then half the time, it's a feature
that none, do we really even care about this feature? It's
like, I would much rather see like 100 features come out, and
then say, Oh, this one is killer, you know, and the other
ones can just go away, or they can languish or whatever, me. I
don't know, I just did some refreshing about that.
You know what? I'm sorry, go ahead.
I was just gonna say there's definitely downsides to that as
well. So you'll dehydrators probably one of the buggy or
podcast apps out there, because I'm constantly trying to put new
things out and I definitely need to go around again. And for
another round of bug fixes soon.
I'll gladly help you with that. I'll even dig up the iPhone for
it. The crappy ass iPhone that struggles like iPhone seven,
like Oh, hypertention, what are you doing? It just to come back
to the money thing, just because this is something that's forming
in my head, I just want to put it out there. So this, this idea
of trying to determine your price finding for creative works
for a podcast, you know, what is it really worth? What should it
really cost? And when you think about it, there's a lot that
goes into it. Yeah, besides the effort of the of the person
involved, there's hosting, there's different features,
there's in our case, there's chapters, there's different
people who help along the way, including Dred Scott, including
including hyper Capture Studio and the API, you know, there's a
lot of different things that flow up to that. And in a
typical business scenario, the way the way it works is, you got
the core product, and everybody who handles it along the way is
just putting their shit on top, and then finally gets into the
store. And here you are, here's your $10 item. And somehow the
the idea of value for value where, you know, the price is
found by the person using it, and it's fair, because, you
know, I looked up value would literally means the value to the
holder of the asset. You know, it's it's not the value is not
what, what someone put on it, for me to purchase it. But we're
kind of, in a way, disassembling the assembly line, you get to
pay for the pieces independently. So you can swap
them out almost like decoupling price from the value chain, each
entity in the chain gets its piece directly from the end
consumer. And I'm not quite sure why but this, you know, you hear
a lot of bullcrap about equity and equality, somehow this is
it. And, and I look forward to working with you specifically,
David, because you're providing an extra piece in the chain,
which needs to get that value, and how we either obfuscate that
from the end consumer and disclose it. Or we say, here's
what it is. And this is why you're doing it. I'm not quite
sure. But I think we're in in a place where people are very
willing to do this. They really enjoy. I mean, this is part of
crowdfunding. This is part of GoFundMe. It's, it's, it's, it
feels inherently good. Yep. I mean, I was listening to Tales
from the Crypt was a great episode. I was playing it from
Spinks chat 100 SATs a minute, that's the value slider pegged
to the right. And and I'm just shouting like, out, um, you
know, I'm listening to this for an hour and a half, it was like
six bucks. I'm like, Fuck, that was so worth it and felt good
the whole time.
Yeah, I've got the same feeling because at the sea, and that
that's interesting that you, you take some people take the
different approaches, because like, I set my value slider
lower, and then I just boost the crap out of stuff. When I like
it. It's almost the opposite is in that makes me feel better,
because I like the adrenaline, you know, dopamine hit of the
boost. So like, I'm like, okay, so I take this opposite
approach, this whole subjective, the whole idea of subjective
value is almost exe. It's, it's more than just the value that's
subjective. It's the it's the subjectivity of how I want to
deliver the value to you. Yeah.
Yes, yes. Yes. Exactly.
That that whole it's just it's sort of mind blowing that we've
just we've gotten to this point now where where this stuff is
flexible enough to be able to do these things. Script my money.
Yeah, programmable money. It kind of it's a mind blower.
Yeah, totally agree and super excited that you guys have you
know, pushed the envelope here and made all this happen. super
thankful to you guys for for doing this as well. So
well. No thanks. No thanks, needed man. You are bringing
your Time and your talent and Dave, who can we thank for
bringing some treasure for this week's episode of podcasting?
2.0.
Yeah, you almost caught me off guard, I
had to reach for the paper, you have your crumble notes. There
you go.
We're good to go.
Let me explain before we rush into it for people who are new
value for value is the system. This whole project podcasting
2.0 podcast, index.org, podcast, social, podcast, index dot
social. All of that is in this podcast all a part of the
project is the value we're delivering. It's for a wide
variety of people. If there's anything you get out of it, for
whatever reason, just put that into a number, send it back to
us. And the way you do that is go to podcast index.org, scroll
down to the bottom, Big Red Donate button for the PayPal,
there's also a lightning invoice that you can scan with your with
any of your lightning wallets. And you can even if you want set
a subscription for a weekly amount of satoshis. Pretty cool.
That is all I think that's an ln URL system or something. And,
and that's it. That's it. That's the exchange is pure value for
value. Whatever you get out of it, you put into it. And we
appreciate any amount because it means a lot to you.
Jeremy cabanel he appreciates the R value. He signed up for a
subscription for $10 a month.
Thank you. Thank you.
That's that's basically a node for us. Right there. Thank you.
Yeah. And I'm spinning up a new search node for for searching
for just lightning enabled podcasts. Yeah, we'll pay for
it. Yes. I think we could probably say that. We've got
another app coming pretty soon. It's gonna give it a shot.
Yeah, I think so. And we'll that'll Thank you, Jeremy. That
just covered our cost on that. And we've got a single donation
of $5. From what is this last name? Merrick. l apostrophe, a
ch. And you say that last name,
lock, maybe blah, blah.
Yeah. Okay. Merrick gave us five bucks. Thank you. Way to go keep
it open source.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the only way to go. Open Source open
mind. And that is it. Okay. Happy. Sad puppy time.
We're giving we're giving out all this advice to a dad. Here's
how you need to make money and
what do we have on the last show?
No, it's just me.
There you go. No guests. No love.
Yeah. Hey, David.
Glad you could be here, buddy. We know you're gonna bring
you're gonna rake in the big bucks for the project.
Yeah, yeah. David, you have such a track record of bringing in
the dough. Yeah,
yeah, exactly. I don't know if I'm the one to be doing that.
This year. Next week. Can
you have a day job, David? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, this is, uh, taking a little break for this. And I
just came back. So I had a I had a baby a couple of months ago,
Max. That's
right. Congratulations. How's that going? Thank
you. Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's super exciting. Boy, yeah,
yeah. So I'm just kind of settling back into work. I've
been back for weeks now.
I'm sorry. Hey, Dave. thinks you settling back into the work?
Yeah. No, brother. No, never as best thing you'll do in your
life, but it never ends.
You're right. You have a stall. You have a small seat. You have
a small window of sanity between about seven or eight years old.
And about 14. Everything on both sides of that is just chaos. You
got Yeah, you got a few more years. And then and then you'll
be hosting and sailing for a few years. And then it's back to
complete chaos again, and you'll be broke?
Oh, yeah. Oh, no, this is total total brokenness. You know, just
why don't you just get a lightning node for your kid
right away. We'll set it up. We'll put your kid in the value
block cuz you might as well get it out of the way up front.
Oh, yeah. Definitely putting aside some Bitcoin from
the diaper node.
I love that. Something about diaper node.com I don't know
why, but I like it.
No, that's Congrats, man. That's best. Yeah. Like Adam says best
thing you'll ever do me you're gonna. You know you. I'm sure
you've had a lot of sleepless nights so far.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's been worth it though. You know,
open the reason other podcasts are here. Did you?
Did you get like a paternity leave or anything like that?
Yeah. So I was off for about a month for that. Yeah.
Okay, good, man. That's something I wish I could have
done with with my kids. Here. Yeah. Yeah, cuz Yeah, my wife. I
mean, it was just such a hard thing on my wife and then um,
I'm working all day. And then I tried to stay up at night and
pick the kids, or get the kids up and feed them and all that.
Did
you have this? Where because whenever Christina would cry in
the middle of night, it was my job at no problem. But I'd get
up. I put on my house coat, you know, if I had to really pee a
pee real quick, and then, you know, go figure out what's wrong
with the kid. My wife hated that. You're supposed to jump up
and go race right away and see what's going on.
Yeah, no, I'm not I'm not of that. No, I was the more like,
get a cup of coffee. First guy.
Yeah. Wow, that's really extreme. So David, what else?
What are your dreams, man? What do you want to be when you grow
up? No. Oh, podcast developer. All right. Yeah, I'm living the
dream already. That's what I'm hoping for. So yeah, you know,
of course, I'd love what I do right now being a mobile
developer working a little bit on the back end. But yeah, long
term would love to be able to work on this full time. So we'll
see where we are. Yes, swift developer.
Is that your language?
Yeah, yeah, Swift. Just recently, we've been doing a lot
more PHP I've kind of started taking over doing some other
work on the back end as well for our API
knows your full stack guy, then.
I'm getting there. I wouldn't call myself that yet. Definitely
not on LinkedIn. Swift and Objective C has been my, my
wheelhouse for a long time. So I love it.
I love that that whole thing. We're looking for a full stack
developer, that means we want somebody that will do it all and
that we don't have to pay very much.
That's totally true. Yeah, it truly is. What
bullcrap is that I'm sorry, you guys have to go through that
shit. That's that's really good. How about hyper catcher? What
did you have a roadmap? Or are you just plotting ahead picking
up where where it goes? I mean, is there anything that we can do
for you to make life easier?
Yeah. So no, I mean, at this point, there's nothing new I
just knew I would need it's just really just picking up what you
guys have already created and making sure that I'm supporting
all the all the tags. So right now, I'm using the search. I'm
using the funding tag, obviously, chapters. I really
want to get involved with people and the clips.
Yeah, another sound bites sound bites another one for for app
usage, man, I would be making sound bites out the ass if I
could do that in the app.
Yep. Yeah. So I really want you to be able to go to an episode
and then be able to listen to sound bites. And so that's
that's definitely something that's coming. I'm also working
on something that's kind of newsletter related. It's no
Tater co then it's going to be coming out pretty soon. I hope
it's kind of a someone hit me up on Twitter about working on
something that was kind of had some similarities to what I've
already been doing with chapters. I have some cool
ideas. So I happen to have something out there soon. For
people to check out. Oh,
no, no. tater.co
no Tater co Yeah. Like taking notes on a on a podcast sort of
thing.
Okay, okay. So what are you like, what's your what's your
sort of draw to newsletters? I mean, that that's kind of a big
thing for Yeah,
yeah, it is. I think just seeing the way that when I saw during
Glenn Greenwald, go over to substack. And Matt Taibbi, all
these you know, it's email, I've heard people talk about kind of
email being kind of similar to podcasts, and that you can't
really, you know, stop emails, it's a direct channel. It's kind
of another, you know, direct channel to the audience. I see
that as being kind of censorship proof in a way. And so that's,
and I see some kind of correlation between podcasts and
newsletters, like there's all these newsletters. The reason I
built the new feature on the hybrid catcher, you can actually
listen to newsletters, like a podcast, because that's
something I've been wanting to do for a while. There's all
these newsletters out here that I that I want to listen to, and
you know, and I don't necessarily have time to sit
down and read it. So I wanted to build out a feature where you
could listen to a newsletter like a podcast, so that's
something I recently added.
Oh, so here's what here's where your whole transcript of Elon
Musk shows up. Yep, yep. Cool. So you're gonna do it both ways.
It's very interesting. That the only thing I would say about
that is sadly email and we have a lot of experience with the no
agenda newsletter. Email is still some booboo man because
there's there's a lot of blacklisting gray listing
issues. There's just so many fucking things. It's it's, it's
right it's Yeah, I mean, look at MailChimp. You know, MailChimp,
D platform people now I know that's not the same. Well,
anyway, I could I could give you a million ideas for this. I like
it. This is great. Cool, very interesting. I put that in the
show notes. So hyper catcher Calm notato ko anything else
that we should put in the shownotes for you? Well, there's
studio dot hyper catcher calm but I don't
get greenlit now
I'll put it in
I'll call it hyper Capture Studio, hyper Capture Studio,
which is just a killer name by the way it is a great name hyper
Capture Studio. I mean, that's just that's just rockin Yeah.
I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, hyper capture is just kind of
calls back to when I was a kid to do a lot of work with hyper
hyper stack.
Oh, goodness hyper stack. Oh, that was my first foray into
Pro. Well besides beta. Yeah, it's a never you could never get
a almost like Apple script. You know, there's no manual. Where
can I find out how to actually work this stuff? It's very, I
found Yeah.
Hyper stack. That's the Mac stuff, right?
Yeah. Yeah. But from early
hypercard. Yeah, from early, early, early days, and they get
super super card.
That's what I meant. I said hyper stack. And then hypercard.
Yes, yeah.
So I remember a day. I remember you emailed me, David. I mean,
like, pretty soon after we started the index API. And you
said, Hey, I'm about to release from the my hyper catcher app
out of beta or something like that. And you said, is it? Is it
okay for me? Like, can you handle this in production? And I
don't remember what I said it was I was like, I don't know.
Maybe? We're about to figure it out. You know, I was just funny.
You asked that question. I had to think about it for like, I
don't know, can we? Maybe I have no idea? Yeah.
I didn't have that many users at the time. But I was just so
surprised, because I was used to paying like, $100 a month for
the other, you know, podcast API that I was using. I just could
always have you guys listen on this for free listen notes.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Tell me. Tell me about listen notes is it wasn't any good.
They'd have a rich feature set. I mean, what? Yeah, obviously,
we encourage all all competition or parallel projects.
Yeah, it you know, it started out being pretty reasonable. I
think when I started with it, it was only like $15 a month or
something for the, for the basic plan. And it just ratcheted up
after that, to the point where it just wasn't feasible for me
to pay for. But their their features were, were not bad. So
they had, but it's basically nothing that podcasts index
doesn't have. So I think the biggest thing they had that was
was nice at the time was a tags, you know, so you can see what
type of podcasts it is, and you could search based on the tag.
And then they, they would also have kind of the top, they had a
couple API's for different categories. So if you want to
find the top news podcasts and the top comedy podcasts, there
was kind of simple API's that you could just call into that.
And that's what my original kind of front page was a bunch of
different calls to them to fetch the latest different categories.
That's interesting that you think I just, I'm realizing we
don't have we don't have that. Now, we could do that. And that
would be I don't, I've never even thought of it. Yeah, we
need we need that. Because we have all the category info in
there, which needs to just need to expose it. How did it Yeah,
I'll work on that.
too. Those. Do they support the namespace?
I don't think so.
I have no idea. No idea. They should.
Yeah. You know what, maybe if we can just coerce and
now it's time for some hot.
Hello, notes. Join us.
then that'll work. That'll work. Don't
be Don't be banging on the door at midnight.
banging. afraid we're gonna get through a podcast.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
sir. Cool. No, no,
I couldn't happen.
Yeah. All right. That's Ella. I love it. I love hyper catcher.
Big fan. Anyway, just make ways we can give you more money as
well. Now let's index request.
All right. Wow. You know, we pretty much all should be saying
the same thing.
I love you. And I'm so glad we're doing this together.
I love you. And I'm so glad that we're doing this together.
David Norman. You guys yeah. David Norman. I love you. I'm so
glad we're doing the stick at Dave. Dave. I love you. I'm so
glad we're doing this together.
Happy Valentine's Day. Oh, my
goodness.
For podcasting 2.0 it's getting steamy in here. We'll be back
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