podcasting 2.0 for May 7 2021, Episode 36 we're crawling on
life away here.
Maybe we are, maybe some other companies are. Hey everybody,
welcome to the weekly board meeting for podcasting. 2.0
everything that's going on around podcast index.org It's
Friday once again, and a lot to talk about just the two of us
today. I'm Adam Curry in Austin, Texas and in Alabama hidden in
the hive built in his blocks, ladies and gentlemen.
We get in our house to get this huge mulberry tree right next to
like our Sun entrance. Yeah. And every time this year, I mean
like I'm telling you this thing's massive. And so every
time right it right at this time of year, it just starts dumping
mulberries. If anybody doesn't know what they are, they will
call it little blackberries. Yeah, they're almost identical
to a Blackberry. And it just it just sheds these things like by
the 1000 stains as well when you walk on them. Oh my god yes like
that falls on your car. Yeah, coming in the side entrance it's
like a trail of purple goo for like seven feet into the into
the doorway. Every day. Gotta hate this tree.
The best thing about it is the via we all park on the street
because we live downtown right? So then the birds just they eat
those things. Oh, that's the worst granite crap that out. Oh,
yeah, man. That's Purple. Purple bird crap everywhere.
Oh my goodness. Yeah, yes. That's wonderful. Yeah, we don't
I used to. I used to have a tree like that. But yeah, now it's in
Amsterdam. That's right. Oh my god, Amsterdam. Even the trees
would just ooze SAP onto your car
and layer over it and it was a mess. You can't get it off Timmy
scrub and scrub. I mean, it's like impossible. That's why you
got to buy a new car. ashtrays are full. We got a we got the
the blackberries and mulberry crap on the roof. It's done.
ashtrays.
Oh, man, Dave, what a What an interesting week.
I'd like to start off by
kind of put it in the title.
Apple screwed the pooch. And this time. They really blew it
for themselves. When they're when they're switched to the
crawler of all things. Anybody in podcasting knows. If your app
does not update a podcast within a timely fashion, people get
very angry. And they get very confused. And then podcaster
start to call their hosting companies. What's wrong? Why
isn't it up? What's wrong with you? Yes. And and I think I have
to give the the media the press for podcasting press, mainly
independent, a solid F for their overall reporting is seriously
it's so disappointing to me that I hear story after story about
how Apple is failing, we can get into that the crawling part in a
second.
And I do not think I have come across one single story or
article or podcast that said, luckily, there's an alternative.
Luckily, there are a whole slew of apps that also do this very
well. Luckily, there is a solution. It's so disappointing
to me. Damn, it's it's still that that Apple spell by ca
Well, the oh and oh, man, they'll fix it. Maybe they won't
bug it's a feature. I don't know. It's funny. It's apple.
Haha. Let's talk about Spotify.
And I think we forget how much money Apple makes. I think
that's part of the spell. Like I was hearing the whole Pfizer,
like $30 billion. And everybody's like, Oh my gosh,
they're gonna make me know in the financial press doesn't make
$30 billion this year. I was like, well, Apple made 111
billion in the last quarter. Yeah, yeah, there's this 100
million dollar. There's this interesting meme that goes
around in the in the podcasting press. Well, you know, Apple is
either just ignoring a billion dollar industry, like, literally
one week. Yeah, you know, one week out of their day, the
resources cost a lot. And it's, it's, it's not 1 billion that
goes to Apple. It's a billion of B rated advertisements that are
flopping around. But now let's talk about subscriptions. That's
going to be great people, you are shooting yourselves in the
foot right now. Boom, boom, boom, you're killing it. No
one's gonna listen to you once people get turned on to
podcasting 2.0 in the new apps, I heard Cridland yesterday
saying it
And I don't know if this is true, but he said that he had
heard at one time that within Apple, the podcasting division
was where basically all the all the screw ups went.
Did you hear him say that? No, I didn't hear him say that. But it
doesn't surprise me. I mean, I don't that's I don't I hate to
say that about somebody that feels so well, let's well, ugly.
Let me let me let me help you determine what that means. Okay,
there's a number. Oh, wait, wait, let me let me be more
clear. Okay. I remember what he said specifically now. He said
the podcasting division is where you go, if you don't want to
have if you don't want to go any further in your career. Wow.
A number of people in the podcasting division are no
agenda listeners. So that already puts them right. They're
probably on the wrong side of thinking in general. And these
are the outcasts. Yes. And people who understand that. And
I think a lot of these, I don't know how many women I've met one
woman, way back in the day who was working on the on the iTunes
namespace, oh, gosh, I forget her name.
But, you know, it's like, you're probably already conflicted. If
you if you really care about podcasting, because you
understand the decentralized nature of it, you understand
what Apple wants to do.
And I think some people may have actually left that division, I'm
not so sure what's in there. But bottom line, I'll just to be
repetitive.
Apple has no connection with the podcasters little bit now. But
you can see how they treat people they actually take money
from podcast Connect is a mess. They have zero representation
inside the company of app developers or hosting companies.
And every single time I hear a story about you know, well, I
want to fix this. And they, they really, they really did a poor
job. You can't call anybody in. But you know, we'll see how it
is next week. They don't care about you. They just don't. And
what's sad is because the our own podcast press is is really
focusing so much on that and where I have a Twitter feed
filled with people saying, hey, the show hasn't been updated for
a day. How come a new upload, can you upload it to Apple? This
is my favorite. Yeah, which I can't blame them for. And now
all I can say is new podcast apps, calm, new podcast apps
calm. That's where you got to be if you want it updated. And, and
how that works and how we're making that even better. With
podcast index is something I want to get into. But first, I
need to play a little bit of the top tech journalist. You brought
a clip I did. I brought one clip, the top tech journalist
who has been doing it for Gosh, I would say probably 20 years.
Let me guess who this is? The top tech journalist. Yeah. When
and certainly when it comes to
podcasting,
apple, you know those types of topics. Okay, so well, is a man
or woman.
Gee, I don't know.
Man. I got I got no idea.
This is from I think it's Alex's office time. It's like a, I
guess it's I don't know if it's a YouTube show where they have a
guest and they have you know, an audience kind of like a visual
clubhouse. And this is Leo Laporte, from this week in tech,
who, certainly up until I'd say around 2015 was the place to go
the Sunday shows. I've been on the show many times until I
wasn't on the show anymore.
When when he was asked a question about podcasting, 2.0
his answer, I thought was very telling about the knowledge of
what is happening here. And of course, we don't have a PR
department. We have a marketing department. It no one's getting
paid. You know what? satoshis that's, that's our model is no
satoshis will come in. Of course, we have generous
supporters of the overall project, which keeps the servers
running. But let me guess at Oh, that's just Adam Curry. He's a
kook Fenwick. Our friend and longtime show partner from
Sacramento says what are your thoughts on podcasting 2.0
platform, the one that pod father is developing, people
keep asking me that, that it's a joke. I don't understand. So
people are confusing what he's doing with what's other some
other things that are happening. Somebody I think it was Chris
said, Well, I like the chapter markers that's not podcasting.
2.0
Adam Curry is a nutjob. He's a conspiracy.
He wants to make a pot. The whole point of this is a podcast
directory that Alex Jones and Infowars can be in. He believes
that Apple and others are censoring the podcast
directories. Yes, they are. They're keeping people like Alex
Jones out of it. And so he wants to create an open podcast
directory for everybody. Hey, he's solving a problem that
doesn't exist.
Who uses podcast directories? Explain that to me. You know, he
wants podcast clients, you know, some, like pocket casts. Many of
them have a discover tab and stuff. He wants them all to use
the same directory is directory so that you can discover info
wars. Sorry, no interest. It's it's a political thing. It has
nothing to do with podcasting. It has more to do with Adam
Curry, and trying to stay relevant and his crazy
conspiracy theorist views. Next question.
That's my favorite part. Next question. This question?
This is all just a way for you. This is a pipeline for you to
get your conspiracy theories. That's right, baby. And where,
how come alex jones hasn't been on boarded yet? What's wrong
with me? I haven't done this right.
Like I didn't even really, it's good to know that because I may
have changed my mind about joining this project if I
thought he was all about just getting Alec Jones on
everybody's discovery tab. And what I found most interesting.
Now I think Leo hates me for whatever reason, but you know,
it's okay. You can hate me, don't hate the project. The
project is not me. The project is open source. It's for anyone
to join. But he took it to a political level. And I just
wanted to save what's so great about this project. Someone sent
me a clip of
accidental tech Marco's podcast, and he was talking something
about, you know, it was a political thing about masks or
whatever. And so he showed his political, his political
preference. And someone said, well, man, yeah, but like, first
of all, I'm not one way or the other. I'm unaffiliated. But
second of all, this is the beauty of this project. We are
in it for success. Everything else falls by the wayside. No
one gives a shit. No one cares. We and I have to say I will
continue to be political. There's one thing that Trump
said when he was president, when he was asked the question, how
do you bring the country back together? His answer was
success. If we can all be successful, everything else
falls by the wayside. I didn't think of it much then. But that
is so true. No one cares. And now Marco, is actually
integrating this fix to a problem that doesn't exist.
Which is chapters. I think he's I saw him post, I guess he's
gonna do some chapter stuff. Yeah, looks like it. Fantastic.
Yeah, the, the, I'm glad you brought that up, because the
political thing is just completely irrelevant.
He said, you know, Leah said, this has nothing to do with
podcasting. That's all it has to do with his podcast. It really
has nothing to do with anything else. Like the the whole idea of
let me just give you an example, a perfect example. For the
breeze app, we put into place a filter, so that I call it a
filter, I'll be more specific that needs to be filtered. It
basically says in any of the API calls, it will only return
results that also exist in Apple directory. So if it doesn't have
an iTunes ID, it won't get returned. And that was just to
keep, you know, political heat and stuff off of the breeze
guys. And you know, we did that for them.
And that's fine. And you can turn it on and off. It's a
parameter in the API call, you can either use it or not. Yeah.
And if you don't use it, you get the full thing. The funniest
thing about that, though, is it didn't change anything. Nothing
changed. There was nothing I filtered out. Because everything
is also in one directory. Like this was never about
Apple, Apple is going to censor 300 podcasts, and we got to make
sure we preserve them, because they're all RSS out there
anyway, sure, we're going to include them in the index. And
you know, we're not going to pull, you know, pull stuff out
and go policing things. Because publishing gets you an intro. I
mean, getting editorial control gets you in trouble. But, you
know, that's what that part is. The other that the real issue is
that Apple, and these guys that control the ecosystem, they can
turn it off and stop playing ball and it kills everybody all
at once, which we just saw happen. Yeah, this this is why
this is hence my disappointment with the podcast press because
instead of celebrating the brave men and and women Hello, we have
Stacey, the brave men and woman No, we have Dame Jennifer. We
need more, who are putting their own time effort, that creativity
money into
creating products that will work with a hope and a promise and an
opportunity to make money on it, which we know. Yes, the wheel is
spinning, but it takes a while before everything is kind of
there.
With the streaming payments, instead of celebrating that it's
just ignored. It's just ignored or it's
It's casually mentioned as I podcast index over there. And
it's part of the magic, the mystique.
It's maybe some more social. It's almost as if it's
impossible for anyone to think that if it's not coming from a
big company, it can be any good. And quite honestly, they're
right. In general, you know, hey, try this podcast that well,
that's wonky. This is weird. That's funny. This doesn't work
right. Now, does that happen with Apple, of course.
And it eventually gets fixed in every single in every single
example. It may be that people have been burned too many times
by open source things or what they thought would be great and
didn't didn't turn out to be great. But we're in such a
consumerist society, that it's like, toss it aside. Now. And
software developers are like military troops in America.
As a software developer, app developers, anyone you ask will
support them, yes, I support the troops, I support the totally
software developers, when it comes down to it, no one wants
to know what the troops really do for a living, no one gives a
flying f about them. Same for software developers, they don't
really care, it's all virtue signaling, because they don't
really know, you know, you get to know a military family, you
get a little more respect about what's going on, regardless of
agreement with the mission or not. Right, you know, and so
that respect is is also not to be found, even for the apple
developers. You know, there's, there's, there's men and women's
sweating balls over there. Yeah, I want to go, I want to actually
give, give them a little bit of relief at some point, because,
you know, I don't want to just hammer on Apple all the time.
No, especially now that I know that, that
if they are truly sort of if that division is truly the way,
the place where you go to sort of end your career within Apple
ecos within the apple org, then, you know, that tells me that
they are just not funded, well, they're just not treated right
within that within that organization. And so, me from
that standpoint,
you know, I feel sorry for it. I mean, you know, people are
criticizing them for not having, like, reaching out to the public
and giving good comms about what's going on, you know, maybe
they literally can't, because they don't have an extra person
to do it. I mean, they may not even have enough people to do
stuff like that. I don't know that. But you know, going back
to the crawler part.
I mean, it is difficult to write a good egg, a good robust,
stable, fast aggregate, let me let me walk you into this,
because I want to applaud you, and to congratulate you on the
work that you have done. And you know, now it's branching out
more people are getting involved. But you know, how to
aggregate and anyone who says, Oh, yeah, we'll just cry.
aggregation is hard. It's hard to do. It's complicated. You
have over a decade of experience, which is why, you
know, we were both right for this project. And Apple has
never really had that kind of experience. And, and they also,
so it's like, when we first started podcasting, the first
time around, we discovered some of these very simple things,
such as, when you subscribe to a new podcast, it's probably not a
good idea for that podcast app, or pod catcher, as we called it
back then, to start downloading all 50 episodes in the feed, to
ha, okay, these were things that we learned while doing it. And
it's okay, that's something that shouldn't be done. Now, when it
comes to crawling, a feed, and which updates an app when
something is released, if you're not really in the game, which
Apple hasn't been to that degree because their app was doing the
crawling, and I want to talk about that change. And all of a
sudden, you're dependent, you know, everyone's dependent upon
your crawler, and your crawler is slow, late broken, it's
complicated. It's not easy. It's, it's, by the way, stop
calling just a crawler, everybody, this is a complicated
business. It's not just one little thing that's out there,
crawling around them crawling around, this is a lot going on a
lot of ways that things get updated,
then you start to make the mistake that you don't know what
the people expect. And that's that attention is not there.
They they have so many usability people on so on everything they
do not on this, you can just tell. So, so now we're in this
position where and I agree with you, and they should have
relief. And I'm sorry, we're now going to go for your jugular. I
mean, now that we have an opportunity, and that's all I'm
doing all days, hey, my show isn't updated new podcast
app.com Go check over here. That seems to be an important feature
of a podcast app.
The The, the aggregator.
The way that aggregators
fall down is just through sheer numbers.
When you're crawling
2.2 million feeds, which I think is roughly what Apple has in
their, in their directory, you're crawling to do 2 million
feeds, you you need you have to do optimization, you can't be
crawling all Will you can you can't even write to the database
fast enough probably at a certain point. Yeah, at a
certain point, you can't. So you have to do, you know, you have
to do some optimization and just look at smaller pieces of that,
that that update that actually update on a regular basis. But,
you know, as opposed to that, I'll give you one good example
is,
you know, there's a bug in, in our aggregator, and ours has got
bugs, too, and ours is slow, sometimes, too. I mean, we
don't, you know, we don't do this thing perfectly by any
stretch of the imagination. Because they're, they're always
gray areas, where you're not sure how to handle the situation
best. And that's what programmers are not good with
programming, programming. 10 programmers and developers tend
to really struggle when it comes to things that are gray. Like,
well, what do I do when these set of variables don't really
mesh out? Well, so you know, one of the one of the things that I
ran into this past week was the guest versus Satoshi stream
said, there's this one podcast is Bitcoin podcast from the
Netherlands. It's not, it's just not updating, and he's got one
item in it. And it hasn't updated in like, six months. I
go looking for, you know, looking and digging and digging
and digging, and finally figure out that there's this weird bug
where if the gu ID tag within the item is purely a number,
yeah. And and it's got the his permanent faults.
Great case, yeah. Because, you know, by default, the permanent
you know, you don't have to specify it. So if it's got those
two, those two qualities in the aggregate, and then the parser
would treat would treat it as an object, a JavaScript object,
that to the to the database insert, and it would fail fail
expecting a string, right. So that's, that's just one and it
had been, probably been this way for a few months. And I was
like, you know, I swear a fix this bug before, it may have
come back at some point, I can't, I just can't find where
it came back. But anyway, that's just one example of literally
10,000 different edge cases that you can hit within your own code
and within the feed. And it's not easy. And I have a feeling
that was happening at Apple, on their on their aggregator thing
is that they've read, they've rewritten some or all of it. And
they're, they're hitting these things. And really, maturity is
the only thing that makes your aggregator worth just takes the
crap takes two guys. Could you explain to hit the edge case? He
had another one had another one? And maybe in six months? You
have you haven't good quality? pochettino? Can you from your
perspective? Since I've heard so many different versions of this
of this? That? Tell me Tell the board?
Did you bring your PowerPoint for the boardroom? No, I brought
the numbers.
Yeah, that was another before for asked this question. That
was another thing that I realized, you know, Apple have,
they must have a million employees. I mean, hundreds of
1000s around the world, when you live in Apple software world,
and everything just has to me, I was like, You got your, your
numbers, your pages, you've got your I message you everything?
No, that's the that's what I was, like, he knows he knows
their PowerPoint, when you have all that stuff. And you know,
then yeah, it all works great together. But in the real world,
you know, I have to open up a Word doc or something and you
know, the all these different types of things. And or maybe
you just have a regular text message? Well, that's not really
always doesn't always work with iMessage. But if you're in the
world of Apple, then you know, you don't really know that these
things are failing, or maybe even they're going on, when it
comes to the changes that Apple made. The most recent changes.
What are the main things that happened from your perspective?
I mean, and, and let's just say what you really think not, it
might be a bug, whatever, just what do you really think their
choices were and where they're at right now?
I think in general, I think long term, it was a good idea for
them to centralize the aggregation. Okay, so I'll split
this into two into two pieces, the API and the namespace,
because there's problems with both.
Now Now, the stuff with podcast connect and all that jazz. I
mean, I knew who the hell knows. I mean, that that's just
something I know user management is a whole nother beast. Yeah,
yeah, it's that I don't I don't know. So but when it comes to
the eight
PCI,
I'll say I have ever
my thought on that is a little a little conspiracy theory kooky.
So So, Leo's right.
I think that on the API side,
I think there was multiple decisions that are multiple
factors that went into making the decision to allow feed URLs
not to be returned. And I think, in the maybe not stated, but in
the back of everybody's mind, and I can say this, because I'm
an IT guy, I've been doing this for 25 years, I understand how
some of this thinking works, there is a nice benefit you get
by D stabilizing something within your own within your own
ecosystem that you don't really care to maintain. So
interesting, you have, you have a you have a product that does a
certain thing. And by side effect, it has created
dependency on this thing. Now, maybe this thing is old, maybe
it's legacy, maybe it's hard to maintain, you just maybe it's a
competitive thing, whatever. And for some reason, you don't
really want to do this thing anymore. If you just come out
and you say, we're not going to do this anymore. We're going to
we're going to, we're going to drop this feature, if you want
to put it in developer lingo.
You immediately get the mob with pitchforks and torches, you get
that? Yeah. Which is equivalent to a political fight when it
comes to where Yeah, yeah, and if you're and if you're Apple,
you don't want that right now, because you've already got all
the Banta trust and all that garbage.
Coming out, you really just don't want to come out and say,
Okay, we're not going to include fate URLs, so that the third
party app ecosystem will not depend on us anymore. You don't
want to make that statement, because you don't want to have
to defend it. So but but what you can do is put in a feature,
you can either put in a feature that makes it less useful, or
are less reliable. Or you can just in general, make the thing
less reliable by kind of not caring. And this is what I met a
couple weeks ago, and I said, I don't think they care. Because
what I what I really mean is I think there's a benefit that
they get to long term long term, let's just say six months, a
year, two years, whatever, to having the API not be very
stable. And people not being able to depend on getting feed
URLs from it. If at some point 15 to 20% of feed URLs are no
longer returned in the apple API. Everybody's going to bail
me nobody's gonna use it for that purpose anymore. And then
they can just drop it. And they've already been they've
gotten what they wanted. And they didn't have to ever
announce that they're dropping a feature, or they're cutting off
competitors or anything like that. It's just from the outside
world. It's like, oh, the system got screwed up. It used to be
reliable. Now it's not. And everybody left. So that's,
that's my thinking on the API's.
Interesting, the just going back to some of the reporting, the
reporting goes like this.
Several apps have moved to use the podcast index, because
Apple's no longer reliable.
I would, I would like to suggest that the reporting now go people
are moving to podcast index, because it's reliable.
Yeah, that's another way you can say it. That's the way it is its
effect.
On the iTunes thing, I mean, it's give me an iTunes namespace
thing.
I think that stuff is a side effect of them writing a new
aggregator
in some way shape or what, what has changed when you say the
namespace stuff with them? I'm not quite sure what the changes
are. Okay. Well, the two things so far this week has been that
iTunes summary,
the iTunes summary tags seems to be have been for the most part,
just deprecated. They don't even seem to be looking at it
anymore. Now summary is where I put my show notes typically.
Yeah, and I've never fully understood why that thing even
exists. It's just seems to be a duplication of description. I
can tell you historically, what I think it is. There was an
argument in the very beginning, and the argument was show notes
and I will take credit for show notes. I came up with the term I
started saying put it in the show notes. Now show notes is a
thing.
A lot of developers early on, were saying we need to have a
tag in the RSS feed for show notes. And Dave Winer said not
that you can do whatever you want, but that will be a
namespace, you can add a namespace for show notes. I'm
keeping this the way it is. And even though and I, of course,
didn't understand very much at the time, and I was definitely
more on the side of on my own, just put that in there. And he
said, Well, you may not understand it, but it's not the
way to go. And I left it at that. This is when Adam ATM
popped up. And people are like, well, we're gonna do it over
here. And we're gonna do it. Right. Yeah. So I think that
when Apple was creating their namespace, that this was meant
to be some version, and maybe it was an internal struggle to By
the way, what do we do with show notes? It was never defined a
lot of people wanted in the RSS feed. And I think that's where
that may have come from.
Okay, that that makes sense. And evidently, they have there's
something wrong with that. They either are not even looking at
that tag at all anymore. Or, or something is happening there.
Around that tag that's just not stable. The other ones iTunes.
Title title, yeah, these title tag? Yeah. And so there's, um,
there seems, is that not showing up either? Is that also not
working the iTunes title? Well, if you have an episode number,
the iTunes title tag doesn't seem to be operating correctly.
With regards to the way that it's it interfaces with the
episode number tag. So you have the episode The episode, not.
iTunes, episode tag defines the episode number. And then the
iTunes title tag is supposed to be just the title without the
number in the title tag, just the bare title tag, and RSS can
have both the number and episode name in case you know, it
doesn't encase the the parser aggregator app doesn't
understand how to make those two mesh. Well, that's just messed
up. Now. It's not working. Right. And you have, again, it
looks like there's an issue with either they're trying to
deprecate something, or they're making decisions about what
overrides what, and that's another thing with aggregation.
So with any with any feed, you can have, I mean, a feed can
have 12 namespaces in it. Yeah. And those namespaces may have
tags and do have tags that duplicate functionality amongst
each other. So for instance, you have the bear, RSS has
description, and then you're gonna have iTunes summary.
Without him now you may have, you may include the content
encoded. So now you have potentially three different
sources of what you could call show notes or description,
right? Which one do you choose? What do you do? I mean, you're
not going to store them all in the database. That's stupid. Ah,
here's the thought. Since they are now creating an instance
Apple is now a hosting provider with the subscription feeds. Is
it possible they made some decisions as to where those
things go for their own hosting and their own internal data
model? I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think that
makes a whole lot of sense. So now, now, they are having to
make decisions the way we have always had to make decisions.
Which one takes priority? Which one do you use? And so if you
have, if you ever, if you have potentially two, three different
you have four different sources of truth, for a certain piece of
metadata you're trying to get you do you have to make a
decision. But like Martin asked me the other day on the on the
master, and he was like, Okay, if if there's an iTunes, title,
and a regular title, what gets reported in the API results for
title, you know, and that's a decision that had to be made.
You can't you're not going to do on both. It's dumb. So we every
time you write an aggregator, you have to make those decisions
in this. This from the outside looks to me, as if this is Apple
making these decisions in real time, as they're figuring as
they're writing this thing and fixing and fixing it.
We know that that's an and they're not, they're not easy
decisions to make. So a lot of times what you do is you just
default back to a sort of baseline. You say, Okay, well,
alright, let's just do title. We know title works. When there's
no bugginess about it. We can at least not for for, let's just
say 75% of shows out there. It'll work. And then as we see
what happens, we'll make adjustments along the way.
That's, unfortunately a lot of the wait times the way you have
to do it. We we start stuff in our aggregator
Like that, where somebody will say, Hey, here's this feed that
that has these quality, it's, it's looking weird, it looks
weird.
And so then I go in there and look at the code and say, Well,
this can probably be better. And so then you put in some, you
know, some logic that says, Okay, if this thing happens, and
you get this, then do these other things. And so that,
that's just Unfortunately, the way it has to go. And that
that's what it looks like, to me is that Apple is, has created
some new aggregator or some new parser, or something on their
side, that's going through there and make and they are adjusting
it. As they see problems arise. I think we've really come up
with with a good working theory here. Apple has, and I'll give
the podcast press this. They're very, they're very impressed
with how Apple implemented their subscription service. I think
that's the product, you know, Apple went, Okay, subscription
service, we're doing the hosting, we're doing all the
metadata, make sure it works with the app. And then
everything you just said falls into play. While we're doing
this. And you know, I'm sure the RSS feeds that'll kind of work
and turn on the crawler.
If if the subscription feeds never show any problems at all,
then what does it matter? Exactly. That goes back to what
we said, you know, a couple of weeks ago, they they within
Apple, I don't think they care that much about podcasting. They
just don't want it to lose money. They want this to either
be a breakeven or a moneymaker. And just because you just don't
want that perpetual read on your balance sheet for the or, you
know, in your within your vision. It's not just that it's
I think it's a boardroom thing. I think I mentioned this, that,
you know, the apple Board of Directors goes, Hey, Spotify is
kicking our ass, or at least they're saying they are they got
Rogen, they got the Obamas they got tow, they got Bruce
Springsteen.
They got to deal with an F. Yeah, whatever it is, they got
all this stuff. Don't we own? It didn't didn't we? Aren't we the
kings. And of course, the Apple has bragging rights.
So I think this is where this upgraded idea comes from. And
it's more in the apple philosophy of paying for stuff,
which I think in general is good. Although, you know, how
many podcasts can you afford to subscribe to? conversely,
some Spotify news, and then I think I'd like to talk about
something else. I got a whole slew of emails coming in from
Europe, this past week, of people very, very angry about
the ads on the Joe Rogan show. Really? Yes. Because there was
the impression was created, that when you are a premium
subscriber, ie you pay and you get ad free music, the
impression whether it was a promise or not, is that podcast
would also be ad free. And
so people are saying, Hey, wait a minute. Okay, 10 ads at the
front of Joe Rogan. I'm used to that. But now there's mid rolls.
And and I understand I thought it was paying not to have ads.
And the answer is worse. Because, you know, Spotify is
help desk is just going to be a help desk. And so they
selecting, you know, they select the answer. And the answer is,
well, this is a feature that Spotify offers to podcasters
they turn it on independently or off, we have no control over it.
I think in Joe Rogan's case, that's not true. I'm pretty sure
that that's part of his deal. I mean, how
they're not going to make it back on conversions, I have to
do some advertising. And that's the business they want to be in.
So
these are the small little things that people don't think
about, he really don't get that without really, I don't know,
talking to your users who are sometimes known as producers or
listeners who have something to say, you know, they they're
interested and they they have an experience or not. So there is
there's so many things being done. That is such a big company
stuff. Yeah. Like that's that's a good point that you know,
you're just talking about because I've been thinking about
this too. I noticed that
there's a couple of twit network shows that listen to security
now. Security now. Yeah, and Windows weekly.
I love Mary Jo Foley. And there's those are like a lot,
you know, industry or industry trade mags almost. But the the
so I noticed on one of the recent episodes that they're
doing like a club membership now.
Which I think is fantastic. I think that's, that's exactly
what that's great thing to do. But the one thing that I see
people consistently doing is and I don't like this is that they,
they say okay, if you're going to be if you're going to be in
our club or a member or you're going to join or whatever, then
you're going to get the ad free version if you there's something
about
That bothers me. It, you should join, you liked it before you
liked the product before you and you have a fast forward button,
you can just support the show, as is. Because you know that now
you're giving extra support. And on top of what they already make
through ads, I guess I just don't like selling your product
as if it's better without the ads. Maybe it is, but I don't,
something feels wrong to me about that. I feel like you
should be okay. There's this old
thing within the Christian evangelical world when you're
evangelizing to people, you know, whether you're going to
you're going to give them the gospel, or whatever you're gonna
do like that. There's this old saying, This is what you went on
with is what you want them to. It's like, Well, you know, if
you, whatever, whatever pitch you give somebody at the
beginning of something defines what they think they're getting
themselves into. And if you define your product, as if it's,
it's not as good right now, because of the ads, but we're
going to give you the better one. If you subscribe.
I don't like the way that feels. Is that weird? Or? No? No. In
fact, let me see I had
a clip.
Let me see if I can find it now.
It was something was something from I Heart Radio. Okay. And
the lady was talking about subscriptions they might have
been on might have been on.
Sounds rolling your toe? Yeah, I know which one you're talking
about? Yeah. And let me see is it sound I can't remember where
I want to label this clip as and, and she was saying, Well,
of course, you know, subscriptions are great. So you
can have
early content windows premium content exclusive. So I'm like,
Well, what is left? Why Why bother? Why bother? And by the
way, you're listening to the free piece of crap. That is no
good. It's not premium. It's not Supreme. It's not early access.
It's not exclusive. It's just crap. Yeah, you wind up, you
wind up literally making something that is inferior, why
bother and I know why the transition is scary. When Dvorak
and I went, what we now call value for value. 14 years ago.
We didn't have a lot to lose, we had jobs.
But even getting over the hump of saying I don't work for tips.
Thank you very much. I don't I don't work for tips.
If you value my product, and then send me something whatever
you think that value is and that is valid especially as a
broadcaster is very very very weird. It's weird an NPR
pledge week you know which everyone on NPR hates that
pledge week again, we got she'll from money to get my damn tote
bag. Where's you can make you can make the story so fun and so
interesting. And like right now I'd like you to boost us boost
boost. If you're on Brees, swings, chat, pod friend pod
station browser extension, boost us crank up the value sliders,
send us whatever you think it's worth in real time. You know,
well, I just did it. And you know what it works, it's gonna
work, but can for like Tom woods. And we he interviewed me
a while back and a great time. And I think we see eye to eye in
a lot of stuff. He was fascinated. And then when
Satoshi started flowing, I said, Hey, man, want me to set you up?
And he said, you know, thanks, man. But you know, I we have, we
have a great subscription model now. And, and everything's
working perfectly. And I don't want to piss anybody off. So
okay, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. And I understand now. And in
many ways, no agenda show is the same thing. You know, the, the
value for value payment is would not replace what we get through
PayPal right now. It's just they won't it's not enough people and
not have apps, but not enough familiarity. And not Bitcoin is
a there's a whole bunch of reasons why it won't replace it.
And it could take a while. Now, of course, I get around that by
promoting it and telling people to do it anyway. But it's not
our not our major focus.
So it's hard to scary. It's scary for people, but man.
I just, you know, one part of this too, that I want to bring
up is the fact that apps need to do this too. You know, we're
talking about developers being a being in the food chain. Yep.
From the beginning of this thing. And it's not. There's way
this is, I've heard this being called like the year of the
Creator, and all this kind of stuff. Well, I mean, developers
are creators too. And again, they're always just they are
just always getting left out of this game. And people like to
jump in.
And criticize apps. You know, I saw somebody on Twitter the
other day that was like,
Oh, I tried to podcasting, people know, apps and they all
suck. And I thought, Oh, well, you know, that's real helpful,
buddy. I think I'm replying to that guy. I'm pretty sure I had
something to say to him.
Yeah, you know what these are? These are people that are
newsflash, you don't make a lot of money making a podcast? Well,
by that same token, and I mentioned this to Martin, if
you're a podcast, app developer, and you're implementing value
for value, why are you setting the default attend satoshis?
Just ask yourself that question. Is that is that the bottom line
that you value yourself out as well? Because if you get a piece
of that is your product. I'm not saying people shouldn't be able
to do 10. But is that really do you think? Is that how you value
your work? And so I was delighted to see Martin, who
still has his fixed values to up it from 250 and 500 boosts? I'm
like, yeah, that's feels a little more reasonable. So yeah,
it's a mindset, we also have to be proud of what we're doing.
And we have and we and you know, when someone criticizes me for
my content, that I'm deeply offended, always. It hurts. And
I find that sometimes I can engage, and it will make me
better, sometimes it will just piss me off. And because it
pisses me off down the road, it'll make me better.
But it's a lot more enjoyable when people are helpful.
And so I used to say, you know, when people like, well, this
sucks, man, you should do this. You do that. I say, you know,
you should do a podcast. It's easy. Yeah, seriously, oh, hey,
you should develop an app. It's so easy. There's it's just you
just get the framework. You plug it in, it works. Nothing. No, no
bugs. No hiccups? No, nothing. Yeah, well, that goes back to
the Apple thing. We, you know, our aggregator has bugs. But we
literally survive on like, you know, $500 a month of donations.
They make a million dollars, every 10 minutes. I mean,
there's really, ultimately no excuse for the for being, you
know, bad quality. When you have, you know, the biggest
budget in the whole world. Well, you know, you're talking about
people, people be beating their head against the wall, working
late, working on lunch breaks, trying to create new podcast app
experiences. I mean, they're not making any money, and they're
doing this in their spare time. Like, that's all Yeah, it's a
bigger problem in society. You know, my example of the
military. Military makes $30,000 a year most most men and women,
police officers, firemen, nurses, teachers, actually,
they're doing better, but that's a whole different conversation.
You know, and we think often like, boy, I got shit servers
from the fire fire department or the police department or, or the
military, you know, get out of Afghanistan. Yeah, whatever,
whatever people are yelling, you when you
humanize the people behind it.
If you can, that really opens up your mind. And so it's the same
with software developers, is I wish that I wish that they would
start putting, like, like Mitch and Martin.
I wish that they would start putting into their apps. Just a
straight up donation button for them. Yeah. To where you can
just boost satoshis straight to them. On top of this is a good
idea. Yeah, like value. The end. This is a larger add on. Not
sure. I don't want to get into that we're on the trail. The
train of topics today anyway, I'll say yes, for another one.
But the one thing I want to I want to bring up is
the
the whole idea of of listeners changing their their own splits
that they were talking about today on the mastodon? Yes. That
was an interesting, very interesting idea Martin had. And
so what he showed was a panel, where this is your default, per
minute stream and boost amount. There's four podcasts specific.
And then he had another little thing there, which was to change
the split amounts.
Or the Yes, per per person in the split.
Yeah, very interesting.
It's a great idea. And I think, you know, so this is kind of
Gail. Gamma said, at the end, it's the users money and it's
voluntary, and it is voluntary basis. My policy is to give the
user full control for better or worse, and I kind of want to end
it. I wanted to bring that specific comment, because I
understand what he means.
I agree with him in principle.
But there's the problem, though, I think comes down to
apps guide users in a certain way.
And part of guiding the user is putting some sort of guardrails
on that, that you can't avoid that. So what you can say, for
instance, content security policies, CSP policies on web
browsers, that that lets the website dictate to the browser,
what JavaScript is allowed to do within this page, within this
page, you could say, well, I don't want a browser that that
does that. I want it to be completely free, I want the user
to be able to do whatever they want to with this, execute
whatever JavaScript they want to.
But that's, and you could go out and create a browser that allows
that, but that's what he said, Well, I don't want them the
website dictating what I can do in my browser. But, you know,
within a certain set of limits, we think that that's probably
okay. And it's not worth doing that.
Because, what's what's to stop? If you give complete control to
the user? what's to stop them from just
since marking it where Okay, every time I listen to this
podcast, I'm going to have it send all my stats to this other
podcast. Let me sort of weird crap like that. Let me let me
offer a solution. And then two issues, which I think may help
us figure this one out. One, to me, the solution is, make it
possible for me to boost an individual on the split. So if I
think the chapters were super great, make it possible for me
to add a little something extra just to Dred Scott, in this
case? I'm okay with that. I think that's an interesting way
to do it. The second part is, what is the source of truth? The
feed has to be the source of truth. If that's being
overridden, at any level, it can have all kinds of implications.
So for example, if there's an app that allows users to change
the split, as determined by the podcaster,
maybe I go to that podcast and say, Hey, you know, what, should
I just delete that podcast app SATs and give them to you from
the from the index? I mean, the end, will never, that will never
end that bullshit,
is that anyone can intervene anywhere, and there's no
gentlemen's agreement as the source of truth is the feed.
And it's not just something superficial, it's money. It's a
little it's a little different than although, so here's another
example. Sir Jean, has a tag of force speed. And he wants this
tag to function as the following way. He records his podcast, and
then an app that recognizes that tag, tag, the playback spec
can't remember what the tag is, he wants it to automatically set
it to 1.25.
Now, is that something valid is is is that tag now interfering
with my experience, I'm against the tag, by the way. I mean, if
you want to fast forward, stop, pause, fast, slow, whatever you
want to do. That's what the app does. But now to have the
podcast or change how my app works, to something that I will
every single time have to go and set it back to one to one or the
app developer will have to add functionality that you override
it. And it's like there's a certain point where you have to
stop with this stuff.
Yeah.
Another example would be, let's say that at some point in the
future that podcasting 2.0 if we make a deal with some sort of
charity, we're gonna give them 10% of our split. Well, I mean,
I don't really want users being able to say, Well, I don't, I
don't want to give any of that to charity. I think there's just
sort of like a.
And in the fact is, if, if people if it's a big enough
issue, and like a gamma, I mean, he's, he can He's fine. Like he
would fall into this category, where what I was about to say is
people can write their own apps that do this, you know, it's all
open, you can do whatever you want. If you want to write a
podcast app that does specifically that, that just
allows people to sling SAS all over the place wherever they
want. That probably has a market and you could write it. I'm
just, I just think for a, a, just over sort of a main line,
podcast experience app. It, there are guardrails that we
sort of everybody expects there to be. And I don't know that
that's really ultimately the best thing for every app to do.
But as in the concept, okay, maybe we should just split this
up, the concept of the value block splits is for a creator,
to reward other people who make the product with him or her. And
the value of that is determined by the person who is ultimately
publishing the work.
I've just feel that their value judgment to make I love the idea
of, hey, this particular thing was great or this host was
better, it's fine to with me, I liked that host better on this
show, I'm just going to boost that person a little extra. But
to change the core feature of the of the split, is actually
going to ruin the idea of removing ASCAP, BMI, Harry Fox
agency, all these asshole companies who take in money
digital royalties, and then really wind up giving pennies on
the dollar to everybody. So from my own, from my own mission,
that it would be very destructive.
Yeah, I think so too. I just think there's a, there's an
expectation of the open standard, working the way that
everybody thinks it would. But then there's always this other
thing you can do. I mean, sure, you can always have a browser
you can do, you can use no script in your browser, and that
blocks all JavaScript, if you want to go it's gonna, it's
going to completely break a bunch of websites. And it's
going to make everything kind of chaotic. But you can do it in an
interesting way is kind of reverse ad blocker. You know,
it's like, we have ad blockers so that people can't make money
off of us. And now we have this reverse system where I'm going
to make less money because someone wants to change the way
it works. I mean, yeah. And, and I agree with you, that's fine.
If that's what if that, if that's what an app or some apps
want to do? I mean, I obviously can't stop it.
I can somebody lead, my voice may just irritate the hell out
of everybody. And they may or out of out of like five people,
and they want to slam on his way to add, yeah, punish you with a
I mean, there's, there's an app out there that can do it. So you
know, but in general, that doesn't seem like the way that
we expect it to work out. Do you want to hear a funny ad? Oh,
yeah. And by the way, I want to reiterate, I really appreciate
Martin, throwing that into the group is a very, very
interesting question. A very good idea. And maybe we haven't
spoken the last of it. Yeah, but I appreciate that. That's again,
the beauty of this group is just phenomenal thinkers and doers.
It's your It's a shame that all we care about here is conspiracy
theories. And Alex Jones, because otherwise, otherwise,
there'd be some great ideas is Alex Jones on board and yet?
Is this the angel of hope?
No, this is good.
porn, bad porn, Ed,
I can have a lot more respect for something that at least
stood up to some obvious
detrimental things in society like pornography.
Hey, Francis, do you like to keep your online activity?
Private? Yes. Um, I mean, sure. Think about everything you've
ever browsed search for watched or tweeted? Now imagine all of
that data has been crawled through collected and aggregated
by third parties into a permanent public record.
You are
with this for a VPN or something? Yes. Yes. This their
interview in this lady. Interesting lady, by the way,
it's on this podcast called trigonometry.
Which I've read a couple of episodes, and they're both
pretty good. But so this lady who was quite interesting, I'm
not sure.
She heard her theory is that the sexual revolution created what
we have now is identity politics. I don't know that I
really follow her or agree with her sort of basic premises. But,
but some of her conclusions are actually really very
interesting. But anyway, so she goes on this rant about about
pornography and how it's bad. And then like, and then like,
one second later, there's an ad ExpressVPN
porn secret? Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Well, that you had an
ad if you had an ad free experience for your members.
Only thing you would never you would never have that. Very
enjoyable moment. Exactly.
Eric actually gave us a pretty good list of stuff we should
talk about and let everybody know what's going on.
Which is all you really
what it's all you all the things on this list are all you let's
say this is this are begging for money list. Well, now I
I don't really see it that way, I think it's important to touch
on touch on a couple of things
that are going on. The first one is pod ping, which is, you know,
this is how we are making our aggregation, our updates our
notifications better. And you're putting a crapload of work into
it.
Yeah, um, I'm pretty excited about it. If it works.
I mean,
it's, it's where most of my focus is right now. I don't, I
don't know. I mean, how deep do we want to get into it? Because
it's changed quite a bit. Do we want to don't need to go down
the rabbit hole? I would say, just tell us where we're at. I
think people who need to be in the rabbit hole are there. But
most importantly, I think it's Tom Rossi. buzzsprout. He's,
he's in on it. He's getting ready to help us with it, I
think.
I hope Yeah. Man, the whole light. And you know, there were
some questions. Martin was like, well, the podcast apps use this
or talk about a high level overview, just so people know
what we're doing, which will of course be superior than Apple
was at any time Welcome to to join podcasting 2.0, we would
appreciate if they made a donation, because it will take a
lot more servers.
But this is kind of a general thing for the whole ecosystem.
Well, that's if we design this thing, right? It is absolutely
something that Apple could use easily, easily. And they and
every little seriously, everybody in the whole industry
can benefit from this. This is not anything that really has to
be a turf war. So the structure that we're at right now is,
and this was born out of out of what we were calling Hydra,
which was this idea that we wanted to be able to crawl feeds
faster by just making it distributed. Well, that we've,
that's I gave up on that just because it's just way too hard.
I don't want to accidentally DDoS people. And things like
that is it is just too, it's too difficult.
What we settled on now, is this idea we're calling pod Ping. And
it will still maintain the initial idea where there's one
DNS name that you send a get request to if you're a host,
okay, if your fireside.
And one of your podcasters, one of your creators on your on your
platform, as a new episode, you will send a get request to pod
pain cloud with a with a URL equals parameter, and then the
full URL of the feed of the public feed. And that's it.
That's it, then all the the host has to do. What happens next is
the front end, then I'm almost done. I think I'm on the quote
unquote, I think I'm almost finished
writing it, the front end, takes that URL, sticks it in a queue.
And then every three seconds, it flushes the queue. And so when
and what that means is it takes each URL that's queued up and
writes it to the hive blockchain. And that's that's
the difference. What we had what I had had designed before was a
series of servers and just to manage the influx pings, etc.
Yeah, and to make it into try to make it decentralized. This
simply writes it to the hive blockchain. Now, blockchain is
publicly viewable by anybody, without any anybody and anybody
can do updates from it. Anybody can all you got to do is and
watch and watch it watch the blockchain whenever you can. The
Hive blockchain updates every three seconds. Whenever a URL
appears with a certain structure. In the hive
blockchain, you know that that feed has updated in it, the
publisher, the platform themselves are the ones that
said that it updated that, when you see it, you can go ahead and
repol it and pull that feed and get the new episodes if it works
correctly. And testing is what will have to be started doing
next. If it works correctly,
then
every app and every app directory or podcast directory
out there can know that a new episode has been published
within 10 seconds.
With with no processing power required to push those
notifications on our side. Right the only the only thing they
have to do is just watch the blockchain for notifications. So
that's that's the idea very elegant and I'm very happy that
Brian of London pushed
pushed and pushed on hive makes so much sense. This is a great,
great use of it. I never saw it.
I never saw it as a big contributing
thing because I was looking at it like it's financial. Yeah, me
too. And financial world. Yeah, that's from a technical level
having a blockchain that updates every three seconds was
butylene. That's a very big
problem. We need some sexy blockchain that talk next. No,
yeah, totally.
So anyway, that's, that's pod being the front end is almost
written, I get, I get the queueing part of it finished
last night.
Like I said, All this is in close, you know, finished
until the testing starts. But it's working well. And
then the next the next step will be when Brian feels like his
watcher and his like his when his Python scripts are finished,
and feels like they're in good shape, we'll just start doing
some testing. And then I really would like to get Tom on board.
If he's willing, I'm going to talk to him privately about it,
to just send an extra paying an extra GET request to the end, so
that we can test it and see if we can handle volume.
And then eventually, how do independent spirits update will?
Do I have to request permission to do this? Yeah, so it's going
to be it's going to be a registration process. This is
not technically open, you're gonna there will be a
registration page that that will be there. So that you can
register now, as a big hosting companies.
We will, you know, I'll give them we just need to be
contacted. And I'll put keys in for them. And that that's
something we can handle.
You know, sort of all in how about new shows a new show that
works the same way? Well, it worked through the same API, it
would work the same thing. Basically all all the pod pink
cloud cares about is a URL, right? It doesn't care. If it
doesn't see it, if it's new, then it will aggregate it.
Right? If you if you're watching the blockchain, and you see a
URL that you did not exist in your directory, it's new. Put it
in. Right. Cool. So you get new everybody gets new feeds, and
feed updates. instantly. It's beautiful. It's instant. It's
beautiful. I love it. And so and we will decentralize it what to
don't want to be the only one running it will have, you know,
two or two or three. Yeah. It doesn't matter how you get it
into the blockchain as long as you get into the blockchain.
Yeah, that's right. Fantastic.
So that, so that's that. So that's one. That's one thing
we're working on. Eric's working on. All the management stuff.
Now, excuse me, I'm sorry, the image server? Yeah. How's that?
Yeah, this is I'm glad that that he picked that up, because this
is this is a big one. Yeah. So he's trying he's, he's hunting
down a bug. There's some slowness with it. And he said
that there's, there's a father of three, this comes from
somewhere with the, with the hosting platform that he's using
that he can't figure out IBO threes means Oh, gosh, that's a
it's some form of internal server error. I don't remember
what that is a server error. I think you're right. He said it's
intermittent. And he's not sure where it's coming from. It may
be coming from the object storage. But he's got he's got
we got like help.
Service unavailable. Okay. So he's got, he's got a HelpDesk
ticket and with the, with the host is use and to try to figure
out where that's coming from and, and figure that out. Once
he said that once he gets that solved, and then gets about, he
wants about half a million feeds minimum, to be the most popular
phase to be to be cashed. And then we'll roll it over into
the.org. And make it make it love everything I see the 503
service unavailable error is an HTTP status code. That means the
website servers simply not available. Most of the time it
occurs because the server's too busy, or because their
maintenance maintenance is being performed on it maintenance.
He said that it's unsettling. He says something's wrong
somewhere. So he's going to he's finding out from them what's
going on. But that's going to be great. And,
and with all of
your caching knowledge, that will be I guess, really
effective for app developers to use that. Yeah, hope so. It just
needs to be fast. Yeah, as long as it's fast. And that will
throw it behind. CloudFlare. When he's done Ryan in cash,
you're good.
Then there's the namespace. The phase phase three, the namespace
we've Hold on. And now it's time for some hot namespace. Oh,
what's your favorite tag today? You know, I've been on Twitter
way too much. I've seen it. I've
Seeing you man, as podcast index to I'm like, look at data Oh
man, he's like kicking up a storm. Which I hate Twitter. Oh
my God, I hate it. But I'm, I'm rolling around in the muck for
you people.
So one of the things that, you know, like these posts will say
things like,
what's your favorite podcast today to have these little pithy
questions to try to get engagement, right, you know,
with people on Twitter is one of the things that pod chaser
tweeted out the other day was describe your podcast in the
sexiest way possible. And I was like, I don't even want to enter
this competition. We, I mean, nobody has stands a chance. And
then we get hot names based off. We are the sexiest damn podcast.
Come on. Like, give me a break. As you wanted to be fair to all
the other. Yes. We're clearly is a shill. Yeah.
So the namespace we're in phase three, we've got to finalize the
trailer tag the other day.
That is not formalized. It's not in the official spec yet. But it
should be. It's stable. Now it's not it's not going to change.
So that's already it's pretty much baked. The
what's the license tag? Got a couple of questions around the
formatting of the of the slug list. That otherwise, that was
pretty much bait. You know what I'm so happy about.
Even though it's apparently not podcasting, 2.0 the chapters is
the hook the chapters is bringing everybody in the chat
what is successful, and that was born out of collaboration.
Someone just the other day said, Hey, I just saw like the images
change on my car. while I'm driving. I saw you were talking.
I wasn't even listening. No agenda. He says, and I saw these
images change. He said, is that podcasting? 2.0. And I think
he's using
pod as podcast addict two chapters. Yeah.
Yeah. It's like that. That's really incredible. I said, yes,
it really is. And this was born out of an approps, by the way to
David Norman, for hyper catcher, I mean, he just says
functionality of the idea of chapters that can be created by
someone else, led to me being lazy and recruiting drab.
A sudden, you know, we've got a great feature that everybody
likes to use. And, and this, this one feature, I think, by
itself will draw people to the to the new podcast apps, thank
God for laziness, there's so some of the greatest
laziness. Now, the back end system that Eric is building is
also quite cool.
I mean, it's gonna be a place for you to get to kind of look
inside the database in on one hand, but also, there'll be some
statistics, I think that we'll be offering. I mean, do you do
you have a handle on? What is he building in there? I was a
building, I feel like he pulls the curtain back every now and
then I get no idea what I'm looking at.
I think. So he is, for one thing, he's building an on ramp.
Yeah. And that's one thing that we need more of the open world
of podcasting just needs, in general needs more on ramps, and
that you're on ramp, you know, for most people is going to be
your hosts your hosting company. But then it doesn't have to be
because your feed can can live at the host can your feed can
live at captivate that then you can on ramp it into the
ecosystem from somewhere else, right? Like, if you realize that
you didn't, oh, I don't exist over here in the podcast index.
Well, you can, you know, on wrap it there. And then there's other
people that there's people that use our directories, and then
you've, you're in the system now. So you cannot we what we
need in general within the podcasting open world is, is
really more on ramps. And so that's one of the things he's,
he's building as an as an on ramp where people can put the
thing, you know, put their feet in manage it. And when I say
manage, it means like,
say, the put a value block in for the for the API,
you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, manager splits.
I say
no, that, that's, that's half of it. The other half is
stats from the standpoint of like, meal splits and you know,
SATs and all that kind of stuff. He He's really working on a he's
trying to bake making a full meal, sort of a full system
where where you can manage your value block and and then keep
track of,
you know, keep track of all that. Right now, the most
important thing as you said, is the onboard
How are we with Ellen pay with making something easy there?
Because it's such a such an elegant solution such It feels
so stable. And we don't really have a perfect way to onboard
podcasters into that, or even, right, honestly,
podcast listeners unless you do what pod friend has done that
Martin is maintaining, you know, your keys and your account,
which I've you know, that's a choice as long as everyone knows
it.
Is the value blog podcasting? 2.0.
Because I mean, chapters is not. So I mean, it's
for a second there. I'm like, What is
he Hi, all of a sudden, yes, I gotcha. I'm sorry. Let's do the
entire weeks go by I don't think about stuff. Leo says Believe
me.
Yeah, and I have dropped the ball on that. And I say drop the
ball. But it's just been so busy. I haven't been able to get
back to, to working with Tim. And I think
I really, we're gonna have to have things on board before we
can do it anyway. Because they are we're still waiting for them
to implement the change. Right? Maybe a ping to them would be a
good idea. Yeah, I think because they're holding us up. I mean, I
understand that. It's a It's a family sitch. Yeah. Which is
totally cool. It's just yeah, now it's been two weeks.
We, we need a we need from them. It's just the TLV record to be
supported. Right. So that the custom record and custom value
or custom key and custom value can, can go correctly. to, to
route everything to to LMP.
As long as as long as they support that if they pop up
them, then we can really start using lm pay wallets for
creators which would simplify oh my god things on that side.
And congratulations to to breeze, new release for them
with now they have shared this podcast functionality. Yeah,
that was um, something I've been looking forward to. Yeah, I just
don't work at the episode levels. Well,
I don't know. I don't think I don't think it does. I haven't
seen release yet. Say hey, here's the podcast and it takes
you right into breeze right that that was that's the general
idea. Yeah, cuz what I've been wanting to do is I've been
trying on the Twitter account to highlight podcasts that have
streaming
value blogs, just to let people know, because there's a lot of
there's a lot. I mean, there's Gosh, almost 200 podcasts now
that do streaming stats. And that's important for people to
know, like, there's a couple of them that I'm actually not
mentioning public because I don't know if they're on if the
creator wants to announce that on the show first. I don't know.
Anyways, I've been trying to highlight some of those I would
really love to be able to deep link into different apps. Yes,
yes. Yeah. So that you can sort of like expose the public to
different shows and different apps at the same time. We have
pod verse coming out this weekend with a new version which
includes value for value very streaming payments very excited
about that that's gonna be a cool cool app
big big up to Curio caster for jumping in and making video work
with the
with the kind of the the ad hoc experiment we set up now with
the NA tube, which has also been ignited with the mark Hall and
his documentary
and it seems like that's going to come together they're going
to have a way to have a documentary pop up with
reasonable you know streaming video that doesn't break the
bank and streaming sets that go right back and Mark is he's
quite a force in the in the documentary world and he says,
you know, we are dying out here we can't get on the streaming
apps if we're on there, we get no money almost or you know, the
terms are stupid. It's It's a mess. And you know, and people
are desperate to get anything for the documentaries and say,
well, let's give it a shot and Alex and Martin and everyone's
jumping in on that I love it. And then for Curio caster to
just say, oh, by the way, hold my beer video works. Very cool.
I'm waiting on somebody to just fork their current app and call
it dog in documentary to or whatever I never I, I mean,
obviously, that's the dream. But also I was talking with with
Mark about that I said, you know,
is that really I mean, it may be the way to go, but at the same
time, where's all the action? You know, it's like if I already
have pod friend over I already have breeze, and then you know,
our pod verse. And then now just, you can also watch a
documentary seems easier than getting
People to load another app.
I mean, maybe Yeah, I agree with that. And I also think that a
plus to meet to music same thing. Yeah, exactly. Make an
album, an RSS feed. Well, that's coming. I got a note from a
professional musician. He says we're making we're making an
album specifically for podcasting. 2.0. And then every
track will be it will be an episode. They want value for
value. I think they I think they already have a node. So yeah,
this is happening. This is happening. Oh, I'm geeking out
about that. Because I love that lightning. That lightning dot
store is fantastic. It's good music man. And I'm not boost
that a lot. I've noticed something about me. I will spend
a lot of money on on podcasts. I didn't know but I know. I know.
It's it's the same with me. And I just announced spending 25 $30
a week. Oh, I'm spending that a week. Now Really? Well, boosting
like a madman based on the amount of times I have to
refill. here's here's the secret. Here's the secret
whenever whenever you talk about podcasting 2.0 or mentioned my
name specifically boosts happen? Yeah.
Like you're trying to tell gene you want some boost man talk
about me more often. You mentioned mining.
Boost, no problem. It's like those, those old SEO crap they
were they were just put put the search term like 1000 times and
white text on a white background.
Every
day just says Adam Curry.
A lot of work is going into this project.
We held up very nicely with a lot of new developers coming in
websites that that previously use the the iTunes index and
API.
I'd like to fortify a little bit more, we're doing okay,
everything is running. Dave and I and Eric, we take no salaries.
This is to keep everything running. We do hope to make
money off of the streaming satoshis. And I think when when
we when everyone else is winning, too. So that's the
idea. But we would like to have a little more buffer for the
next wave of whatever's coming. Because I think people are going
to come. This is the mistake that Twitter and Facebook and
other social media networks have made like Well, we're the kings
and you know, screw you. And we're going to be platform a
certain group of people or groups of people. And I have not
been this delighted with my mastodon, which is federated.
It not been as delighted ever it is so enjoyable.
Because I'm getting good content content that I'm interested in.
And it's it's almost just bots, that's pushing it through from
Twitter. But it's completely independent. I don't have to
worry about what I say that also there's no algorithm is going to
sit there and try and beat me up and make me mad.
And eventually this will happen with the big companies that will
happen with will happen with Twitter and with Facebook. I
mean, these big companies, strangely enough,
do go away after a time listen to this clip. Verizon is on the
verge of signing a deal to sell Yahoo and AOL and agreement
could be announced today for the private equity firm Apollo
Global Management to buy Verizon media arm the price could hit $5
billion. $5 billion is pathetic for AOL and Yahoo. Which, which
includes
Arianna, what's her name, Huffington Post, all of that
stuff is in there, too. He's my space went away. geo cities went
away. Alta Vista was the search engine. And
Netscape disappeared. Netscape disappeared.
I mean, that was that was the biggest IPO in history. When
that happened. Everybody was using Netscape stuff does go
away.
What was that search engine that had the look like a clipper
ship? And that was the logo. That wasn't Alta Vista. I
thought that was Alta Vista. Oh, no, I know what I'm thinking of.
Austin lavista.
course Of course. Yeah. So my point is, we'll get an influx of
apps are going to get popular, or someone's going to go viral
on something and we're going to need to be fortified. So we'd
love to have you support the show this and not just the show,
but the entire project. And by the way, Apple should consider
doing a board meeting as a podcast. It's kind of fun, and
it's kind of transparent.
Please go to podcast index.org you can support us through
PayPal with your caique bucks course you can always boost this
show. It really helps. It's that's no joke. I mean that I I
in fact that I prefer seeing a whole bunch of boosts. So people
are using that methodology. Just to get used to it and have fun
with it and be creative and and
To help you move that system forward, but regardless, any
type of support you can give, and a lot of our developers are
doing it just by bringing their time and their talent. You know,
it's the three T's the time, talent treasure. We do want to
thank the people who've supported us in the past week
with their donations.
We still grant the ones that we ran, we know
we have our monthly monthly donors, which I've listed.
As far as non monthly donor single donations, we have a
grand total of one.
Okay. All right.
William, William Miller gave us $20 Well, we appreciate that,
William, in the morning, gentlemen, go podcasting.
Thank you very much, William. That is appreciated. Our monthly
donors that hit this week are Scott. Scott Jalbert. $12. Mark
Graham. $1. Joseph maraca $5. David made us $10 Jeremy new $5.
Kevin Rose $25. And Greg Thomas $5. Thank you guys. We
appreciate it very much.
And I will say that
sad puppy. Yeah. It's awfully disheartening. A little bit to
see that Yeah, but we do. Do we want to mention the T shirt?
Yes, please do? Yes. Great idea. This is. Here's how this goes.
We have a signal channel that Eric, Dave and I talk on. And
Dave's like, I want this as as something for the donors. And
Eric imedia is like, Okay, I've got the fulfillment. I know
where to get them done. What what Pantone color do you want?
Go ahead and tell me when your idea. Yeah, it's literally like
within 30 seconds. I got a guy for that.
Yeah, so it's what we said is $100. Is that what we decided? I
think that we did arbitrary i think i think that's a good.
Yeah, I think it's a good. Okay. So I think if anybody donates
$100 to the show, we're gonna give, we're going to send you a
podcasting 2.0 t shirt. So that's, that's basically the
thing. And that's, that's 100 bucks, you know, over over time
gets aggravated, right? It's not got to be 101 go now, it's
aggregate. Yeah, please keep up with your own accounting. I
don't wanna I don't want to do that. Wait, isn't Eric building
a back end system for that? So we can account for that and you
can put in your information?
Seriously, that is that is, that is the thing. That is a great
service that I know, he's also working on. You know, he's also
thinking about how can we do these different donation levels,
once we have the TLV records worked out and we and people can
identify themselves if they want to? These are all fantastic
things. And Eric does have his head deep in that. God, it's a
shame. It's a shame that this project is only about conspiracy
theories. Otherwise, there's just so many cool things
happening. Like
the the the T shirts are gonna have the, the beautiful
podcasting 2.0 certified badge from Benjamin Bellamy on it.
Yes. So they will be nice, great for your girlfriend to
girlfriends and wives love it. It's the chicks dig it, man.
That's your boyfriend to be to be.
That was that was a mistake. I
didn't mean to do that.
Yes, your partner. Let's put it that way.
That's,
that's, that's all. That's all we got right now. Yeah, donation
sides. Done. Well, thank you all very much podcast index.org. We
ask for your time, your talent, your treasure. Whatever you can
do, however, you can support us, hey, start an app, it's easy.
But from there, you can you can obviously sign up as a
developer, you can find it if you're a podcaster. And you
would like to receive streaming value for value payments in any
of our apps that are already supported. Find yourself on
podcast index.org hit the lightning bolt and start the
process and ends I'll take you through and there'll be some
choices you can make and that process will only get better as
we bring it into the realm of genes mom
takes a technical term now it's a technical term, but is it the
GM doesn't have doesn't have GM functionality?
Is what here's the fountains of Wayne. I can't get that song out
of my head every time I hear jeans mom. Jeans mom has got it
going in that fountains of wine. Thanks. So thanks, Stacy's mom.
Oh, now at now you've confused me. Yeah. Well, that that may
have been was that after your your time at MTV? Or was that
during that? You know, I think I may have bitten
Stacy's mom was like, maybe late 90s 98. Y'all know? That was way
after my time at Mt. No, wait, okay, no.
I think I left in 94 or at least full time. 94 I think 90 for the
year I graduated high school. Hey, once you go fuck yourself,
Dave. Didn't need to hear that.
Thanks. I love you, too. Thanks, bro.
All right, let me just check my list. See if there was anything
else. I mean, I'm sure there's a ton of stuff that that we could
be talking about. Oh, yeah, just one other thing, if you're
another thing that we're kind of doing as a service, and I'm
learning a lot more about channels and size, and there's
anchor channels, and all kinds of stuff. You know, if you're,
if you're setting up your own node, and you need a, or just,
if you're setting up your own node, let me know, we're trying
to provide as much routing as possible to everybody to make
sure that you know, at least you can get something flowing and
going. And now that I'm learning more about the channels, I see
the need to open up fewer but bigger ones, and help people
understand how they can keep the channel balanced from their
side. So I'll be doing as much hands on help and education of
that as possible. It's costly. Yes, so many channels.
We got a lot of channels. Yeah, we do. We, but what's
interesting is we put 15 $100 I think I put 15 $100 in
it was like maybe it was maybe 1200, I can't remember exactly.
And it's like, I'll just put that in there. And we've never
had to add money.
And Bitcoin has gone up. Since we started, which the money is
still kind of the same. And it just kind of works out, I'm able
to kind of just buy this by the seat of our pants, or open up
channels big enough that they make sense.
But I'm going to be kind of restructuring that because I
think some stuff is there's also some some channels that are
happy to open to us. And then you know, they're charging high
fees like Africa.
They're, you know, it's like, and they'll get around
eventually, you know, it's like, that's Yeah, I understand. But
we're not we don't need that yet. If it's a dire situation
that we don't have any routing, of course, you can make whatever
you want to make, and that's how the network should function. But
I want to try and keep it as easy as possible and as
effective as possible for for our network in this
you know, there's a there's a lot of different schools of
thought. But personally, I feel
you know, trying to build our own network, or own connections
and peering within the network as close as possible is valid,
and is a smart thing to do. And, and you know, and how the rest
of the lightning network comes on board. And how that works is
to be seen we don't we'd never see all the private channels
that are also running on the lightning network and least
we're doing them open
but but when when the AMP stuff gets going we can do multipaths
all at once. I mean that'll be awesome because that you see
sometimes you do a case and and you see it just hunting for a
channel you know just over and over is trying and with I think
the AMP stuff solves that if I'm not if I'm understanding it prof
something will
something will somewhere alright Dave
good talking to you, brother. Me it's always want to eat you want
to play? Oh, yeah, question call in? Yeah, of course I do. Here
we go. Mr. temper Do you think that the world government is
perhaps cooperating with the aliens and using mind altering
drugs, supercomputers, cathode rays, sound emitters and other
existing technology to shape the world views.
That's me, baby. That's you've kept podcasting. 2.0 right where
it belongs and the conspiracy theory. Perfect. Alright,
everybody, Dave, thanks, man. had a great weekend. Everybody.
That's our board meeting. We'll do it again next Friday. Until
then, have a great weekend. Take it easy Bye bye.
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